Why does religion condemn suicide?
I am bringing another topic which shows a big difference between Western and Asian culture. Suicide is a taboo topic that has been used both in philosophy and religion. It is important to differentiate them in two main blocks:
Religion:
According to Catholic teachings about suicide. St. Augustine of Hippo, an early Christian bishop and philosopher, wrote that he who kills himself is a homicide. In fact, according the Catechism of St. Pius X, an early 20th-century compendium of Catholic beliefs, someone who died by suicide should be denied Christian burial.
On Islamic understandings, the fate of those who die by suicide is similarly dreadful. Hadiths, or sayings, attributed to the Prophet Muhammad warn Muslims against committing suicide. The hadiths say that those who kill themselves suffer hellfire. And in hell, they will continue to inflict pain on themselves, according to the method of their suicide.
In Hinduism, suicide is referred to by the Sanskrit word atmahatya, literally meaning soul-murder. Soul-murder is said to produce a string of karmic reactions that prevent the soul from obtaining liberation. In fact, Indian folklore has numerous stories about those who commit suicide. According to the Hindu philosophy of birth and rebirth, in not being reincarnated, souls linger on the earth, and at times, trouble the living.
Literature or artistic perspective:
His name was Kozaburo Eto. This young student killed himself on february 11th, exactly the Constitutions day. He did it lonely in the darkness of his job staying apart from television or looks. It was a solemn and respectful act. This was the main critical action against politics I ever seen in my life.
Yukio Mishima, the way of samurai, pages 81 and 82.
And what I envied most about him was that he managed to reach the end of his life without the slightest conscience of being burdened with a special individuality or sense of individual mission like mine. This sense of individuality robbed my life of its symbolism, that is to say, or its power to serve, like Tsurukawas, as a metaphor for something outside itself; accordingly it deprived me of the feelings of lifes extensity and solidarity, and it became the source of that sense of solitude which pursued me indefinitely. It was strange. I did not even have any feeling of solidarity with nothingness - Yukio Mishima, The Temple of the Golden Pavilion.
What I have discovered along this year is the big difference between the concept of death in these doctrines. Religion itself clearly condemn it. Nevertheless, Japanese authors like Mishima sees it as a solemn act with liberation.
Doesn't matter how controversial suicide is I think is a respectful act which reflects individualism. We have to respect when someone decides to end their life and not condemn it.
Religion:
According to Catholic teachings about suicide. St. Augustine of Hippo, an early Christian bishop and philosopher, wrote that he who kills himself is a homicide. In fact, according the Catechism of St. Pius X, an early 20th-century compendium of Catholic beliefs, someone who died by suicide should be denied Christian burial.
On Islamic understandings, the fate of those who die by suicide is similarly dreadful. Hadiths, or sayings, attributed to the Prophet Muhammad warn Muslims against committing suicide. The hadiths say that those who kill themselves suffer hellfire. And in hell, they will continue to inflict pain on themselves, according to the method of their suicide.
In Hinduism, suicide is referred to by the Sanskrit word atmahatya, literally meaning soul-murder. Soul-murder is said to produce a string of karmic reactions that prevent the soul from obtaining liberation. In fact, Indian folklore has numerous stories about those who commit suicide. According to the Hindu philosophy of birth and rebirth, in not being reincarnated, souls linger on the earth, and at times, trouble the living.
Literature or artistic perspective:
His name was Kozaburo Eto. This young student killed himself on february 11th, exactly the Constitutions day. He did it lonely in the darkness of his job staying apart from television or looks. It was a solemn and respectful act. This was the main critical action against politics I ever seen in my life.
Yukio Mishima, the way of samurai, pages 81 and 82.
And what I envied most about him was that he managed to reach the end of his life without the slightest conscience of being burdened with a special individuality or sense of individual mission like mine. This sense of individuality robbed my life of its symbolism, that is to say, or its power to serve, like Tsurukawas, as a metaphor for something outside itself; accordingly it deprived me of the feelings of lifes extensity and solidarity, and it became the source of that sense of solitude which pursued me indefinitely. It was strange. I did not even have any feeling of solidarity with nothingness - Yukio Mishima, The Temple of the Golden Pavilion.
What I have discovered along this year is the big difference between the concept of death in these doctrines. Religion itself clearly condemn it. Nevertheless, Japanese authors like Mishima sees it as a solemn act with liberation.
Doesn't matter how controversial suicide is I think is a respectful act which reflects individualism. We have to respect when someone decides to end their life and not condemn it.
Comments (94)
Regarding cultural stereotypes, there is or was a belief in some parts of the West that Japanese culture held suicide for honourable motives in very high regard and that suicide was seen as a duty on a disgraced man. It was believed (rightly or wrongly) that Hindu widows were duty bound to kill themselves on their husbands' pyre. In the modern West, any connection of suicide to honour and disgrace or to sin and damnation is forbidden and will attract the strongest condemnation.
I never understood why [suicide] is seen that way. So I guess I am in the minority side.
Quoting Cuthbert
It is forbidden because religion has a lot of power in the making of laws in Western world. They always have condemned it and then they influenced the legislative process to make it as a law or rule. To be honest I think it is unfair.
Would you call "delinquent" to a suicidal person?
This is true if we adopt value neutral individualism, but the Judeo-Christian tradition is not fundamentally individualistic. In Judaism -- out of which Christianity comes from -- our bodies are not on our own, but rather basically considered on loan from God. You're not allowed to self-harm either. The ten commandments tell us "thou shalt not murder" and suicide can reasonably be interpreted as "self murder" although the picture is not quite this black and white and the Bible portrays numerous suicides in various conditions, some of which appear to be condoned. When I write of suicide here I'm talking about suicide not under duress and of full consciousness of one's actions.
Suicide traditionally gets the worst treatment in Judaism in the afterlife. Only God has the right to give and take life and killing oneself is considered playing God. It was a mortal sin in Catholicism until 1983. It also leaves no opportunity for repetentence/atonement.
Yes, that's true. I do understand that in these specific religions our body belongs to God so, whenever we hurt ourselves, we are hurting God too.
But I am not agree. I just see it as the average religious subterfuge which only prolong our suffering. It is not fair the statement that I hurt God killing myself but not when I am suffering previously.
If we constantly use the argument of "not hurting" God we are forced to always suffer
Agreed. At least this is the thought I wish is implemented in most people's minds
I don't think suicide hurts God (God is all-powerful), but it is bad for one's soul if such a thing exists. If there is no soul we will already spend the vast majority of time in nothingness so nothing really matters, but in in the off chance there is a soul one ought to live as good as possible and heighten one's spiritual state as this life is not the end.
Everyone suffers, and often in their own unique way. Others can often help us alleviate our own suffering.
Well, I think this is one of the main uncertainties of our lives: the pointless of existence. What really matters at all?
Quoting Moses
Good point but trust me, it impossible to help. We will suffer most of the days in this life. We can help each other but it would alleviate few seconds compared to all hours with pain
Go find love, Javi.
I cannot looking for something that doesn't exist
If you believe that you're already dead.
The Old Testament commands one to choose life.
This is why I sound sceptical with religion or sacred books. Why does the Old Testament commands me to choose life over and over again? Like why the prophets were obsessed with the act of living.
One of the tricky things here is individualism itself is a very western idea, influenced a lot by Judeo-Christian ideas.
For many religions, life is sacred and as a result, suicide is a denial of this.
Perhaps one could make an argument in places like Japan where space was limited suicide was more condoned for this reason. But I think the explanation of honor and bringing honor to your family makes more sense.
That commandment, found in Deuteronomy, is from God.
At the end of the day you're going to make the final decision: Life or death. Love or lovelessness. It's up to you.
Sorry but I do not understand this argument. Do you mean space as the territory itself?
Japan has never been so drastic with suicide until the last decade of this century creating the Ministry of "Loneliness" Tetsushi Sakamoto (?? ??) Minister of Loneliness.
Their artists have always showed suicide as art or as an act of purity
Is up to me but whatever I would do it would make some suffer or pain to others, for example my parents or others who care about me. It is not so easy to make "own decisions"
Well written, sir. Excellent statement :100: :clap:
Glad to know most of the people find out a situation where they can skip suicide. But Tom, I want to respect all of those who end up in this context. I will not criminalise them. Whenever this issue happens we have to take care of them with honoured acts.
I wish I could understand them better. But I am closer to the meaning of suicide in a Japanese literature point of view
Suicide causes immeasurable pain and suffering to those who knew the deceased. Parents never get over it. You'd be causing immeasurable suffering to your parents and siblings.
Exactly. This a very important point. Parents do not deserve experience the pain of losing a son because of suicide. I guess it could be the worst scenario possible.
But I am not referring to individuals who are surrounded by family or good friends. I am referring to lonely people. This tend to be the main characteristic of a suicidal.
Death is a great harm to the one who undergoes it. Most recognize this and are sufficiently responsive to instrumental reasons to not do it. Most recognize, for instance, that killing oneself to avoid having to attend a boring meeting would be very stupid.
But if one can persuade someone that it is immoral as well, then one has double bubbled it. And that person is now less likely to kill themselves than if they only recognized instrumental reason not to do so.
That doesn't mean it is immoral, it's just an explanation of why it might be condemned as being. The bottom line is that it's such a great harm to die we want to prevent people from doing it in moments of stupidity
Understandable. But I do not see "stupidity" when someone is walking through a period where they want to kill themselves. I think is a very serious situation and I can't imagine a person with the aim of killing himself just randomly.
Every suicidal tend to have a respectful cause to their actions
Of course, sometimes it won't be contrary to the person's interests. But most of the time it will. And trying to persuade someone not to do something that it is contrary to their interests seems like a respectful thing to do.
What I try to contemplate with you is that a person with these kind of thoughts rarely have interests or a stupid reason. They just want to finish their lives. Simple as it sounds. The paradox here is the issue that specialists who want to prevent these people from killing themselves tend to show them the pursue of a life full of stupidity and useless. Or as they say so constantly: The way of keep living not matter the suffering
:fire:
Quoting 180 Proof
Unfortunately, they are not temporary but perpetual.
It is not about optimism but hope. I guess it is a weak decision to fix the problems but the concept of "end" could be the finish of some important issues such as suffering or depression.
Then you dispute
Quoting Tom Storm
or the finding that many suicide-attempt survivors realize they did not really want to die?
That's a very important conjecture. To be honest, 180 Proof, I don't know what to answer precisely because I don't know what it feels like when someone survive a suicide-attempt. I wish most of the cases we see the scenario which @Tom Storm shared with us and they end up finding a cause to keep living.
But, probably, there are other examples of survivors that realize that they do not want to die because the act itself can hurt others connected to them such as family or friends
The logic of the suicider is plain & simple: Algos or Thanatos and we all know everybody's terrified of jahanam.
That said, killing oneself is, if you examine it closely, a gross aberration - it goes against the very essence of (all) life which is to, well, live (for as long as possible with immortality being no. 1 on the wish list). Ergo, the antagonism the living bear against suiciders is as expected - they (the living) are made a mockery of (their basic survival instinct is being ridiculed) and nobody and I mean nobody likes to be laughed at/made the butt of a joke.
Suicide is an insult to life, delivered in the most :vomit: ways possible.
There's more...chew on that for the moment.
I think one of the main inconvenients here is the act of seeing "life" as something sacred or worthy. You see suicide as an insult to life because (I guess) you understand there are a lot of reasons to keep living doesn't matter the "temporary" problems we have to deal with.
But what if I say that life is pointless... I am not insulting myself but doing an act of revolution against the status quo. Some see it as the worst scenario but others see it as a solemn solution to the problems.
Do you agree that it is contrary to one's interest to kill oneself, extreme unending agony aside?
What I want to say is that suicide depends on circumstances. We cannot say as an overall that the act itself is "contrary to one's interests" because we do not really know what struggles someone who has such big dilemma.
So, I am not sure I am agree if suicide is contrary to my own interests.
Well, yes. It is harm to all the people who are related to the suicidal because they would suffer their lost, but I do not see it as harmful to the dead one because he/she chose this path to end their pain
This doesn't sound right at all. Death is a colossal harm to the one who dies. That's why it's used as a punishment. That's why killing others is so wrong. And it's why killing oneself to avoid a boring meeting would be stupid (whereas killing oneself to avoid endless agony would not be).
Exactly, and do you know why is it wrong? Because the killer is selfish and is manipulating other people's lives. That's why is unfair and sad one someone kills another. Each human should have the right of deciding about their own existence. I mean, the chance to decide whenever I don't want to live anymore
My point is that death is extremely harmful to the one who dies. And thus to kill oneself is to do oneself a great harm. It is going to be irrational under most circumstances. It would be a case of jumping out of the frying pan into an even hotter fire.
But... Do you mean harmful in a physical or psychological context? Because for sure it is so painful killing myself if I do sp in a hot fire. Nevertheless, a suicidal tend to find out another alternatives such as hanging.
It would sound so drastic but after doing such act the suicidal would find inner peace and stop suffering from psychological harm
Physically yes, but not mentally.
Anyway, why I have to do such act? The hermit can do it himself
So death is a great harm to the one who dies. A huge harm. It's one of the biggest.
So, if you kill yourself, then you are doing yourself a great harm.
That's a stupid thing to do, unless doing it prevented you from coming to an even greater harm.
Imagine you are upset one day and you decide to saw one of your ears off, a la van gogh. That's not sensible. You've made your situation worse, not better. Now you are upset and you only have one ear.
That's what death does. It makes our situation worse, not better. The only exception would be if your life is terrible with no prospect of it being otherwise.
[quote=Albert Camus (The Myth of Sisyphus)]There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide.[/quote]
Quoting javi2541997
My oversight, apologies.
Algos hunts with the hounds and runs with the hares. O horror of horrors! Do you see any light at the end of this tunnel? I'm dead beat! You're on your own! Good luck.
But here Van Gogh injured himself without dying. It is not the same goal. Probably he did so, as you explained, just to calm some of his anger but I guess he never thought about suicide at all.
Quoting Bartricks
Then, you are agree with me with the fact that suicide could be the ending to many unfixable problems.
I see it but I am not brave enough to walk up there :death:
I'm sorry.
Keep it coming! :clap:
[quote=Ms. Marple]Most interesting.[/quote]
That's a pretty good question and thought. I do not recall a specific case of a suicidal victim doing such act just to avoid the concentration camp.
Nevertheless... we have to highlight that Adolf Hitler killed himself before seeing the loss of Nazi Germany
He was well-fed and well-rested...he had time to ruminate.
How does one know that, certainly causing so much "pain" to family and friends, one's own "pain" will end with deliberately killing oneself?
However, it makes sense like this :point: [math]Algos \to Thanatos[/math]
We do not have clear information about after death experience yet. This kind of "uncertainty" gives some "hope" to all of those who are suffering a lot of pain in life.
It is true that the act of suicide could be selfish towards family and friends who would suffer the lost of the deceased.
I think suicide should be understood in an individualistic way. If we see it as "collective" it would lose their real nature or meaning.
I don't know what it was like in the USA, but here 30-40 years ago there was often a puerile romanticism around suicide, especially amongst nascent-Emo young people who thought that the act of suicide had a mystique to it. The option of suicide was often wielded at others with passive-aggressive defiance. It was a kind of an aesthetic, soft-core existentialist posture. Was that just us?
Here is your answer then. There is not a difference between the two scenarios of your friends. One interpreted death in his own beliefs or thoughts and the other did the same too but the result is the same for both: deceased
Exactly. Well written, Sir. I see suffering and death correlated in self-caused actions. I don't see it in exterior facts but it is true that we also have to take some consideration about them.
Quoting Agent Smith
One day, soon or after, we will be dead. Each is individual is free to choose the path to do so.
The real question is whether those people who failed in their suicide attempt "found reasons to live" because those reasons were somehow already present for them prior to the suicide attempt, or did they find them precisely because they seriously attempted suicide.
It is imaginable that a serious suicide attempt (one where the reasonably predictable outcome of the method is death) brings about a special change in the person's cognition (on a biochemical level).
Note how suicide survivor stories differ: those who survived falls from great heights or gunshot wounds to the chest or abdomen seem to be far more optimistic than those who survived a medication overdose or slit wrists.
More likely, it's those same parents and siblings -- and friends or a spouse -- who actually drive a person into suicide.
More pertinent than suicide is the prevalence and relevance of people wishing that someone would kill themselves (or generally, that they would die).
Quoting Bartricks
The sad irony of it all is that it can be the same people who tell you not to kill yourself who also wish you would be dead.
What's the bigger harm (or harms)?
Not just he, but many other Nazis as well.
Exactly, because those Nazi officials understood suicide as a honorable ending. Quite similar to Japanese commanders after Nagasaki and Hiroshima attacks.
It would make a big impact whenever you feel you are closer to death than ever. It takes a while until a suicidal makes his final "choice" because he tends to plan which path is better to end his life.
If after giving a try it results in surviving that's would affect psychologically. To be honest, I would feel pretty bad with myself and think: "I am so pathetic that I can't even end my own life"
[...] I don't know. I don't think I would feel better if I survive a suicidal attempt.
Keep in mind that suicide (supposedly) is the end to all pain and suffering. It has to work. A suicidal doesn't expect to fail the attempt
Presumably some suicide attempts are intended to fail to begin with (the harm inflicted upon oneself is clearly not grave enough).
Then, those suicide attempts are fake. We cannot play about dying or not dying because whenever we pass through it there is no coming back. This is why, supposedly, a suicidal wants to attempt. Not come back to "life" because it "s*cks"
So, if I try a suicide attempt with the intention to fail, I am contrary to the nature of suicide itself.
Not really. It was mainly driven by fear. Fear of being held responsible and of being put on display and fear of reprisals. Some Nazi's even killed all their children before killing themselves. They were mostly like terrified rats leaving a sinking ship.
So interesting indeed. They were more afraid of the reprisals than dying and end his life destroying everything they built during Nazi Germany.
How do you know that?
Can you substantiate your claim with empirical evidence, or is it just conjecture?
Again:
How do you know that?
Can you substantiate your claim with empirical evidence, or is it just conjecture?
That requires belief in one's eternal damnation. This is a very specific belief.
This is reasonably well established, in as much as it is part of the official record left by historians such as Ian Kershaw in Nemisis and Joachim Fest Inside Hitler's Bunker: The Last Days of the Third Reich and Hugh Trevor Roper's The Last Days of Hitler and others.
Your interpretation is not in line with Nazi ideology. It's certainly an interpretation in line with what many people _wish_ that the Nazis would think and feel, or what many people believe that the Nazis _should_ think and feel, but that still doesn't make it the case.
No - I don't have time to go over the books and pull them out. If that's a problem for you feel free to ignore my comment.
Quoting baker
It's not my interpretation and you're assuming that actually Nazi's actually followed their ideology even in adversity.
You framed it that way earlier on.
In WW documentaries, I have heard of suicide letters from them that give me reason to believe that they in fact did. In those letters, they said things like, "I cannot bear to live in a world ruled by an inferior race".
I also had a friend whose father was a real Nazi from WWII. I got to know him. I have reason to believe that these people would rather die, even by their own hand, than live under the rule of those they deem inferior to themselves.
And that's why religions typically condemn it. It is, I think, primarily out of a concern to prevent someone harming themselves
It is just a conjecture because, sadly, I am not able to know what is inside of a suicidal mind. Some defend that those commanders committed suicide trying to avoid being captured. Others defend the thesis that the killed themselves as an act of honour.
The second thesis, I completely believe it related to Japanese commanders. They did Seppuku as an act of honour towards the emperors for not winning the WWII.
"Our" life, in religion, isn't ours and/or it isn't a property.
Simple!
Quoting baker
Quoting Bartricks
Extreme unending agony is possible only in a scenario of eternal damnation. In most other scenarios, death of the body is taken to mean the end of suffering.
I'm not so sure that religions' inention is that compassionate.
In traditional Japanese culture, there is also the concept of rebirth tied in with suicide; there, suicide isn't seen as the total end of one's existence, the way it is usually seen in secular Western culture.
Exactly, I think Japanese culture (as an overall) doesn't see death as an ending and I think that is so respectful and aesthetic. I sometimes miss the freedom of speaking about death because soon or later I will experience it. I don't want to see it as a taboo topic or so dramatic. I want to understand it as a natural process.
If death ends your suffering, then it's hard to see how it would be so harmful that only extreme unending agony in this world could make it in one's interest to kill oneself.
The point, however, is that death is clearly extremely harmful. That's in the bank. There's no serious dispute over it. The dispute is over 'why' it is extremely harmful, not whether it is.
Epicurus argued that death is not harmful at all, but virtually everyone rejects his conclusion - as it is so obviously contrary to reason - and debates instead what precisely has gone wrong with his argument.
The important point, where the rationality of suicide is concerned, is that the evidence that death is extremely harmful - one of the most harmful things that can befall one - is overwhelming. Poor reasoning about the harmfulness of death is also commonplace. But that it is extremely harmful is not in serious dispute.
We can note this ourselves, for who among us would recommend suicide to a person apart from under the most extreme circumstances? If death didn't harm a person, then it'd be rational to recommend it all the time. Let's say you've got to have a root canal tomorrow. Well, kill yourself, then you won't have to undergo it. The root canal will be harmful. But death won't be. Yet that's obviously extremely irrational. Why? Because death is a huge harm that eclipses by an order of magnitude the harm of a root canal.
What about the sacrifice of one life to save millions of other lives? That seems like a death that is extremely helpful to millions (assuming they are not suicidal).
(What if Hitler could have been snuggled to death as a baby?)
I was also careful to say that escaping extreme agony is what it seems to take to make suicide in one's own interest. That is, it's what it takes for one to have 'instrumental' reason to kill oneself. Instrumental reasons are not moral reasons. And sometimes we might find ourselves with moral reason to kill ourselves if, say, doing so will save the lives of countless others or some such. (There are other ways too - one might come to deserve to die through one's atrocious behaviour, for instance).
The point remains that all of this is evidence of just how harmful death is to the one who dies. And thus that's probably why religions condemn it as immoral. It isn't actually immoral, at least not in the main (it's irrational in the main, but not immoral). But it is so harmful to the one who dies that it makes sense to condemn it morally, so as to reduce the chances of someone subjecting themselves to it. For someone who is in, say, the grips of depression or some other mental episode is typically not going to be very good at thinking about what is truly in their own best interests, but they may still be motivated to do what is right.
Nazism would be able to exist anyway. Hitler was not the only chain of Nazi Germany. The führer could be elected on Goebbles or Himmler, for example. There are some facts inside history that looks like unavoidable.
WWIII and Nazism had to exist to take a good lesson from it. I mean, soon or later, this kind of world issues happen.
What if Putin could have been snuggled to death as a baby? ... well I guess another Russian oligarch with another name would have attacked Ukraine too.
1. Animals don't suicide no matter how extreme their suffering.
2. Humans suicide when extreme their suffering.