"Stonks only go up!"

Count Timothy von Icarus July 12, 2022 at 15:16 10950 views 44 comments
This is the meme rallying cry against bears and crypto bulls. Stock prices only go up (given a long enough time horizon). This is something that is taught almost as a fact of economics. For example, The Great Courses' micro/macro 101 level course explains how the stock market has averaged a 10% return per annum, and how a slow and steady flow of savings into a diversified stock portfolio yields a large amount of savings over time. This is the famous "Warren Buffet," advice: "stick your money in S&P500 ETFs and forget about it."

There is a rather large problem with this ubiquitous outlook on the price of equities.

First, it is falsified by history.

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Imagine pouring your savings into an S&P500 ETF in 1965 as it approached 800, only to see it not surpass that level until the early 1990s, at which point decades of high inflation had already greatly eroded the real value of nominal share prices. Investing at age 35 does not guarantee solid returns by age 65.

A look at other markets is even less friendly to this view:

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The second problem is that, in all my time studying and now teaching economics, I have never seen an argument for why stock prices for large caps should necessarily outpace both inflation and % GDP growth. Yet the argument that parking your money in an index fund should be a rather fool proof strategy endures, and this argument presupposes that this is true. In reality, it seems odd that the value of shares of the largest 100-500 companies should continually grow significantly faster than overall GDP, wages, or inflation.

From an information theoretic perspective this also makes little sense. If stocks outperform fixed assets consistently in this way, this should be priced in already, and so we shouldn't have continuous growth. Continuous growth of this sort presupposes an informational deficit that, by my reckoning, should not exist.

What's up here?


It's an open question. My thought is that the long-term boom in stock prices is tied directly to central bank efforts to stimulate full employment by keeping interest rates very low. This has made fixed asset investments (e.g. bonds), produce a very low return on investment. This in turn has driven people to invest in equities. Helping this trend is the advice that "throwing money into equities is a sure thing." But, at some point, people will remember that it isn't. You can plow your money into a diversified large cap index in a developed country at age 35, come back at 65, and find your assets' real value are lower than it was when you bought it. This has indeed happened historically.

The reason "stonks only go up," then is central bank actions depressing the value of fixed asset investments, while at the same time cheap debt allows companies to do things like issue debt for stock buybacks and "debt funded dividends." My opinion is that both of these should be illegal. Corporations, like government entities, should only be allowed to borrow to fund investments or operating deficits.

Corporate debt to GDP hit record levels in the US even before the Pandemic borrowing binge. This debt service represents a considerable anchor on companies' future ability to generate profits. Yet stocks have soared. This seems mysterious until you realize that interest rates have been held so low, even as inflation rises, that stocks have represented one of the only places for yield chasing investors to plow their money into. Who wants to hold 30 year debt at 2.8% when inflation is 8%?

(The other place they've looked for yields? Single family homes .This also has had bad effects, on the one hand increasing housing scarcity, and on the other looking like a new bubble, as rents and home prices rise with no connection to wage growth.)

The problem I foresee is twofold. First, the policy of keeping rates low has now been identified as far from benign. It is a major driver of wealth inequality. To see why, simply look at the percentage of all equities held by the top 0.1%, 1%, and 10% wealthiest individuals in developed economies. Rising stock values inflate the value of assets largely held by the wealthy.

This wasn't politically untenable before because the middle class had still plowed most of their savings into the market. The fate of stock prices became very politically relevant as the ability of citizens to retire was increasingly tied to stock prices. Thus, there was considerable pressure to make sure "stonks only go up," which you see in the fact that so much debt was allowed to be issued for stock buybacks.

Now the interests of the wealthy and everyone else are diverging because inflation is back. It's more important for the median citizen to see inflation subside than it is to see stock values stay up.

How do we beat inflation? We dramatically increase interest rates. What happens if rates go up dramatically and eclipse the projected return for stocks (which are already probably unrealistic)? You get a massive vacuum pulling money out of stocks and into fixed assets. You get this not only because returns are higher in fixed assets, but because heavily indebted large corporations now are forced to roll over debt at much higher rates, which is going to tank profitability.

Which isn't to say I think stocks will plunge in value and stay low for 30+ years, but to say that it is totally possible and I find it hard to see why this is ignored. And while raising rates and keeping them high will be painful, it might be the right thing to do. Middle class people should not necessarily have most of their non-home related assets tied up in equities. Wouldn't it be nice if people who can't afford to gamble could make actual meaningful yields on savings bonds like they used to be able to? Isn't fixed asset income a better foundation for middle class savings? Aren't bonds, which are issued for real investments (stock buybacks aside), a better place to focus than stock prices, whose shift up or down does absolutely nothing for how much a company can invest?

ETFs are a great innovation. They allow you to quickly diversify your portfolio. They're also awful for amateur investors as far as fixed income is concerned. Instead of thinking about buying a coupon rate, you're buying shares of a bond ETF. The price of that share now moves around based on bond market behavior.

On a practical note, the US government does offer anyone with a Social Security number up to $10,000 in savings bonds that are tied to the rate of inflation. That, far more than equities, is where luminaries should be telling people to put their money first. There is a 9.6% coupon sitting out there and "experts" are saying "go buy stock" now?

Lot to unpack there. Figured it would be a fun topic of discussion.

Comments (44)

Cuthbert July 12, 2022 at 16:57 #718061
Stock market players create no value. They build no houses, sail no ships, entertain no crowds, sew no garments, dig up no precious stones, make no medicine, fight no wars, paint no fences, install no boilers, deliver no babies and create nothing of either use or beauty. They encourage one lot of people to lay bets on other people's success at doing these things. They take some of the value that other people have created. They generally keep out of trouble and include some of the sweetest people you could ever hope to meet. They toil hard and spin like crazy. They are not the only drones in the hive politic. They look after our pensions so that we can be drones in our turn. But they are not really doing anything of value.
Gnomon July 12, 2022 at 17:06 #718063
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
From an information theoretic perspective this also makes little sense.

Most of the economic math and speculative predictions are way over my head. But "information-theoretic" is right down my philosophical alley. What does your IT perspective say about the near future? In view of the current inflationary bubble, is a serious Recession inevitable? I have no upwardly mobile "stonks", and I don't have any money to invest in EFTs. So, maybe I'll just hunker-down in my non-fungible cave, where I have nothing to lose, and try to ride it out. :cool:
Count Timothy von Icarus July 12, 2022 at 20:41 #718113
Reply to Gnomon

I think any attempt to predict the particulars of a recession is a fool's errand. I'm talking more about how "what has been the case," is erroneously seen as "what must be the case in the future."

So, my point would be merely that there is no reason that a broad investment in large firms is going to necessarily result in robust returns. This is the experience of the Baby Boomers during their peak earning years, but this phenomena seems more driven by government intervention than is commonly admitted.

I think people shouldn't be led to think of their retirement savings as being something that is going to "grow" over time. Equities are by no means guaranteed to grow at a rate greater than inflation. A glance at the historical yields on investment grade bonds vs inflation suggests that savings will have a hard time keeping the value they held when you put the money away, let alone gaining value.

The easiest way to think about this is just to ignore inflation entirely. If you want to be able to pull $40,000 a year out of a retirement account from age 65-85, you might want to expect that you have to put $20,000 in a year from age 25-65 (holding all $ amounts constant).

But that's definitely not what you're told in the US. You're told to expect that money put into stocks will result in real growth, significantly above inflation, over the course of your life.

I'd say the interesting questions here are:

1. Why have such huge blinders developed, such that professionals don't look back beyond around 1990, or to other developed markets and see that "stonks" in fact, do not always see their prices go up?

2. Why would otherwise well informed people even expect the value of large corporations' stock to routinely grow faster than GDP for decades on end?

3. To what degree has the surge in stock prices been due to government/central bank interventions (targeting stock prices or not; in general they are targeting unemployment rates)? I get the sense that the large population of "long term unemployed" people created by globalization was used as an excuse to keep interest rates low under the guise of helping boost employment, when really a key benefit was inflating asset values. After all, labor force participation rates never came close to returning to pre-2008 levels even as we saw "historically low unemployment," circa 2019, but interest rates were kept low because small hikes caused the stock market to tank.

4. Ethically, should we have a better way of helping people fund their retirement? The current system seems like a perfect storm of perverse incentives where politicians are now motivated to make sure stock prices keep going up because people have been talked into betting their ability to retire on the fact that they WILL go up.

This is incidentally not that different from another mantra for developed economies: "housing values always go up." Apparently they can keep increasing at a rate higher than wages, and in the face of declining birth rates and eventually declining populations...
Tate July 12, 2022 at 22:38 #718131
Reply to Count Timothy von Icarus
How about real estate? Doesn't that always go up? Just thinking of inflation hedges these days.

Oh, just saw that you addressed that.
jgill July 12, 2022 at 22:44 #718134
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
I think any attempt to predict the particulars of a recession is a fool's errand. I'm talking more about how "what has been the case," is erroneously seen as "what must be the case in the future."


The dismal science. :cool:
BC July 12, 2022 at 23:50 #718155
"In the long run, money invested in stocks will do better than money invested in savings" -- or some such formulation. Perhaps, but as John Maynard Keynes said, "In the long run, we're all dead."

No investment return (real estate, gold, platinum, pork belly futures, mutual funds, stocks and bonds, etc.) can claim to be guaranteed. If someone claims their fund is guaranteed to turn a profit, they are running some sort of scam.

it makes sense to save money, to buy (and pay for) a reasonably priced appropriately sized house; to put money into conservative investments which are unlikely to yield either unreliable big gains or very big losses. It makes sense to invest in yourself -- education (skills acquisition), a reasonable level of fitness (you'll be less likely to fall apart too early), and relationships (marry, find a long-term partner, get a nice dog, and the like.

What can go wrong if you follow my advice above? Pretty much everything. You could end up flat broke after decades of sensible thrift and prudent investment and totally wretched. It just that you are less likely to end up flat broke and miserable if you save, invest conservatively, limit debt as much as possible, and live within your means. Friendship is always good to have on hand.
Count Timothy von Icarus July 13, 2022 at 00:00 #718159
Reply to jgill

To be fair, no one asks a biologist to predict the next mammal that will evolve, or a neuroscientist to guess what they're thinking of using neuroimaging alone. People's expectations for economists are strangely high.
Cuthbert July 13, 2022 at 14:57 #718332
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
To be fair, no one asks a biologist to predict the next mammal that will evolve, or a neuroscientist to guess what they're thinking of using neuroimaging alone. People's expectations for economists are strangely high.


That's because the last economist who said, truthfully, "I have no more idea what is going to happen than a biologist knows what mammals will evolve" stopped getting invited to economists' parties and conferences and eventually ended up swigging cider under the railway arches. It is an expectation that economists have brought upon themselves. G B Shaw noticed this. He likened the economy to a runaway horse doing whatever it wants while we hold the reins and pretend to be in control and have some idea what might happen next.
Count Timothy von Icarus July 13, 2022 at 18:29 #718368
Reply to Cuthbert

I think it owes to the field being necessarily more closely tied to politics than other fields.

I also think a huge black mark against economics comes from the mystification of Smith's "invisible hand," and the "power of markets."

We now know that these patterns of phenomena are what we call emergence and complexity. Economies are complex, dynamical systems. We have a lexicon and formalisms for defining and describing this complexity. Nevertheless, there is still a deep trend in economics to mistify markets, to see this complexity as something unique to markets, and thus intervention in markets as somehow "spoiling the market magic," instead of seeing that the economy will remain a dynamical system no matter how you set things up. Its dynamical nature just means policy interventions may have unintended consequences.
abstract-project July 14, 2022 at 02:50 #718465
Hey this is my first post around here. I don’t know a ton about formal economic theory but I’ve been trying to learn more. This is less me trying to prove anything and more me trying to think through what’s in the OP.

The middle class putting its savings into the stock market does lead to some odd dynamics. The basic idea is that wage-earners should be able to turn their wages into capital. Their money doesn’t sit around doing nothing. It can fund new productive ventures. This should be good for society and middle class investors.

Like you’ve said, this isn’t how it actually works. Would it be right to say that buying a stock is simply buying an older investment? If you buy a stock when it is issued you are buying something with a theoretically unlimited return. You then sell the stock when you think it will give you its highest realistic return or when you want liquidity. Whoever buys it still gets the potential for endless returns.

Theoretically there could be a benefit to this. The needs of early investors and later investors might not align. Whoever buys the stock when it’s issued might want a higher return. Once the investment creates something that can generate proven (but not astronomical) returns it might be more attractive to a middle class person.

The key variable that would determine if this is a positive for society has to do with the “information deficit.” It’s possible that early investors are better at knowing which unproven assets to invest in. In this case the middle class provides those early investors with liquidity to take on productive risks. A virtuous circle results if the initial stock has room to grow and the initial investors know what they are doing. Some of the goods those risky investments produce can be bought by aspiring retirees, since their growing wealth in stock allows them to spend their wages more freely.

However, the whole thing also has the potential to be a disaster. It could be that investors mostly sell stock when they believe it has reached its highest realistic value or when they think the value of the stock will fall. In that case the savings of middle class retirees are pushed into a market for investments that aren’t expected to generate more revenue. Why wouldn’t Warren Buffet want a market like that to grow?

I’ll wrap this up but I have a question about increasing interest rates. If rates lead to demand destruction (indirectly through unemployment and directly through devaluing retirement plans) doesn’t that hurt the potential return for fixed assets? Someone needs to buy the goods those assets produce. Is it worth it to make fixed assets relatively more appealing to stocks even if they have less absolute potential?

Sorry if none of this made sense lol.
unenlightened July 14, 2022 at 16:00 #718743
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
To be fair, no one asks a biologist to predict the next mammal that will evolve, or a neuroscientist to guess what they're thinking of using neuroimaging alone. People's expectations for economists are strangely high.


Chaps do manage to forecast the weather to an approximation, and that's a complex system. I think economics suffers from the same problem as psychology, (and politics, as you mentioned) that the theories change behaviour and so confound themselves. For example, the effect of this thread, if widely read and believed, might be to send stocks into a long term decline as long term investors diversify. Until folks get as far as this post and realise that the long term decline has been caused by a self-fulfilling prophesy rather than real events ... and so on.

I suspect every theory in the humanities is inclined to become either self-fulfilling or self-refuting as soon as it becomes public, but I wouldn't care to say which kind this one is.
Agent Smith July 16, 2022 at 06:53 #719494
Quoting unenlightened
Chaps do manage to forecast the weather to an approximation, and that's a complex system. I think economics suffers from the same problem as psychology, (and politics, as you mentioned) that the theories change behaviour and so confound themselves. For example, the effect of this thread, if widely read and believed, might be to send stocks into a long term decline as long term investors diversify. Until folks get as far as this post and realise that the long term decline has been caused by a self-fulfilling prophesy rather than real events ... and so on.

I suspect every theory in the humanities is inclined to become either self-fulfilling or self-refuting as soon as it becomes public, but I wouldn't care to say which kind this one is.


[quote=Ms. Marple]Most interesting.[/quote]

Evidence then that panpsychism is false (no discernible change in behavior of matter/energy despite patterns/laws in their conduct being public knowledge since Galileo-Newton).

This is the issue with psychology, oui mon ami? Any theory in psychology that explains (human behavior) will also have to predict (human behavior). Yet, once we're in the know about such a theory, we can alter our conduct, thus falsifying the theory. :chin:
Isaac July 16, 2022 at 06:58 #719495
Quoting unenlightened
I suspect every theory in the humanities is inclined to become either self-fulfilling or self-refuting as soon as it becomes public, but I wouldn't care to say which kind this one is.


Quoting Agent Smith
Any theory in psychology that explains (human behavior) will also have to predict (human behavior). Yet, once we're in the know about such a theory, we can alter our conduct, thus falsifying the theory.


You two have a very distorted view of the degree to which the general public read psychology papers! I'd venture the general public are aware of less than one percent of psychological theories and less than one percent of those are actually capable of changing their behaviour despite being aware of the theory describing it. The pool of people you're concerned about is vanishingly small.
Agent Smith July 16, 2022 at 07:08 #719502
Reply to Isaac

Quoting Agent Smith
Yet, once we're in the know


You underestimate us, mon ami! You also fail, quite paradoxically, to understand human nature - wealth, fame, and power drive us and you, of course, know the implications of that.

In addition, I'm not expecting the transformation and thus the falsification of a psychological theory overnight - it'll be gradual, depending on what you alluded to which is how fast the information is disseminated to the people, but falsification is inevitable. So, my advice to psychologists is don't even try and if you do, take the secret to your grave!
Isaac July 16, 2022 at 07:10 #719503
Quoting Agent Smith
I'm not expecting the transformation and thus the falsification of a psychological theory overnight - it'll be gradual, depending on what you alluded to which is how fast the information is disseminated to the people, but falsification is inevitable.


So presumably has happened with a great many theories already? Providing an example shouldn't be too much trouble then.
Agent Smith July 16, 2022 at 07:14 #719506
Quoting Isaac
So presumably has happened with a great many theories already? Providing an example shouldn't be too much trouble then.


Read up on cognitive biases, the modern version of fallacies, and get back to me. Philosophy, with its emphasis on objectivity, is anti-psychology to that extent, oui monsieur?
Isaac July 16, 2022 at 07:16 #719508
Quoting Agent Smith
Read up on cognitive biases, the modern version of fallacies, and get back to me.


Are you suggesting that people no longer suffer from cognitive biases?
unenlightened July 16, 2022 at 07:22 #719510
Quoting Isaac
You two have a very distorted view of the degree to which the general public read psychology papers!


The general public read trashy women's magazines and watch tv, which are full of the [s]latest[/s] freshly out of date psychology theory concerning losing weight, self improvement of all kinds,, and whatever the latest therapy of the stars is. It's psychology, Issac, but not as we know it. they are also moulded by clickbait which is designed by psychologists - one doesn't have to understand to be influenced.

They don't read astronomy papers either, but they know space is big and think they have been abducted by aliens in space ships. That's a new phenomenon of human behaviour.
Agent Smith July 16, 2022 at 07:26 #719513
Quoting Isaac
Are you suggesting that people no longer suffer from cognitive biases?


Getting there...as we gain knowledge of our how our brains work, we will also be able to avoid the pitfalls we discover along the way.
unenlightened July 16, 2022 at 07:33 #719515
Quoting Isaac
Providing an example shouldn't be too much trouble then.


The theories of Freud have totally transformed public attitudes and behaviour regarding sex, from regarding a glimpse of stocking as something shocking, to anything goes. Freudian imagery has become a cliche of cinema, and what was repressed and unconscious is now trendy to the point that S&M bondage dungeons are now one the extra rooms looked for on house moving programs, along with the home office and gym.
Isaac July 16, 2022 at 07:40 #719519
Quoting unenlightened
The general public read trashy women's magazines and watch tv, which are full of the latest freshly out of date psychology theory concerning losing weight, self improvement of all kinds,, and whatever the latest therapy of the stars is.


Absolutely. But do they actually change mental practices in any way which then falsifies the theory. Are these people actually thinking in a meaningfully different way from the way they thought prior to reading the trash?

Quoting unenlightened
they are also moulded by clickbait which is designed by psychologists - one doesn't have to understand to be influenced.


Indeed, but that's making use of a psychological theory, not falsifying one. Psychologists can use theories of human thinking strategies to manipulate human behaviour, but that doesn't' then falsify those theories, if anything it provides good evidence that they're right.

Quoting unenlightened
They don't read astronomy papers either, but they know space is big and think they have been abducted by aliens in space ships. That's a new phenomenon of human behaviour.


Yep, new knowledge definitely changes narratives, but this is a far cry from knowledge about psychological theories rendering those theories false. I'm not denying a mechanism exists whereby it could happen, I'm denying that it actually has (to any significant degree). If people read a lot of actual psychology and if they were plastic enough in their thinking to have those theories alter their behaviour, then those theories would be rendered false by their very publication. The mechanism is sound. I just don't see any evidence it actually takes place.

Quoting Agent Smith
as we gain knowledge of our how our brains work, we will also be able to avoid the pitfalls we discover along the way.


You've misunderstood my request (which is odd because it was quite simple) I was asking for evidence that this has actually happened, not a mechanism whereby it could.
Agent Smith July 16, 2022 at 07:42 #719522
Quoting Isaac
You've misunderstood my request (which is odd because it was quite simple) I was asking for evidence that this has actually happened, not a mechanism whereby it could.


Replication crisis in psychology?
Isaac July 16, 2022 at 07:46 #719525
Quoting unenlightened
The theories of Freud have totally transformed public attitudes and behaviour regarding sex


Have they? Or was it the counterculture in the 60s very few of whom had even picked up Freud?

Besides which, has that rendered Freud's theories false? (I can't stand Freud by the way, and think he was a fraud of the highest order, so this is all theoretical). Very few psychological theories contain the conclusion "and no one can ever do anything about this, it will never change". Psychological theories are (or should be) about modes or habits of thought. I can't think of a single one which claimed anything more than a generality.

Quoting Agent Smith
Replication crisis in psychology?


What about it?
Agent Smith July 16, 2022 at 07:49 #719529
Quoting Isaac
What about it?


Pre-publication: Bad science.

Post-publication: People altering their behavior (now they know).

Either way, disastrous for psychology, oui?
Agent Smith July 16, 2022 at 07:51 #719531
Quoting unenlightened
The theories of Freud have totally transformed public attitudes and behaviour regarding sex, from regarding a glimpse of stocking as something shocking, to anything goes.


:up:
unenlightened July 16, 2022 at 07:51 #719532
Quoting Isaac
but that doesn't' then falsify those theories, if anything it provides good evidence that they're right.


Everybody knows about clickbait. So they become somewhat immune and it has to change. In order for psychology to be a science, it needs to keep subject and object apart. That is why every experiment involves deception - as soon as the subject knows what aspect of behaviour is being investigated, their behaviour is influenced by that knowledge. But a huge part of all social behaviour in humans is dependent on what one thinks of humans - one's folk psychology, and folk psychology is influence by so-called scientific psychology. Physicists do not have this problem as atoms do not have a folk atomic theory, that influences their interactions. But I'll stop there because we are way off topic.
Isaac July 16, 2022 at 08:06 #719536
Quoting Agent Smith
Pre-publication: Bad methodology.

Post-publication: People altering their behavior (now they know).

Either way, disastrous for psychology, oui?


Well, no.

In the first instance, psychology's replication rate is similar (marginally better, in fact) to medicine. Do you refuse medical treatment?

Bad methodology is bad. We learn better, we fix the problem. It's hardly a disaster.

In the second place, you've yet to provide me with any evidence of this actually happening, so I can't see it being anything more than your idle speculation. Again, hardly a disaster.
Isaac July 16, 2022 at 08:14 #719539
Quoting unenlightened
Everybody knows about clickbait. So they become somewhat immune and it has to change.


Indeed. But the theory behind clickbait never said anything like "and even knowing about this won't change the model" so the actual psychological theory is not falsified by the behaviour. In fact, the vast majority of theories on which ideas like clickbait are built, actually include the prediction the knowledge of the process will lead to a change in habit, so the subsequent change in habit has added weight to the model, not falsified it.

Quoting unenlightened
every experiment involves deception - as soon as the subject knows what aspect of behaviour is being investigated, their behaviour is influenced by that knowledge.


...which itself is s psychological theory, supported by the evidence, and included in almost all psychological theory behind these experiments. Even Milgram was aware of the effect and worded his theory carefully to accommodate it.

Quoting unenlightened
a huge part of all social behaviour in humans is dependent on what one thinks of humans - one's folk psychology, and folk psychology is influence by so-called scientific psychology.


It's this latter claim we're discussing. I haven't seen much evidence yet.

Quoting unenlightened
Physicists do not have this problem as atoms do not have a folk atomic theory, that influences their interactions.


Well...tell that to the Copenhagenists.
Agent Smith July 16, 2022 at 08:24 #719540
Reply to Isaac

Well, you could google that, but here's a little experiment you can do yourself. Take two people A & B. Inform A on comfirmation bias aka cherry-picking and keep the other, B, in the dark about this bias. Ask both to analyze their beliefs. There should be a noticeable difference betwixt the two in my humble opinion, oui? Philosophy, as I mentioned earlier, is an antidote for our psychological shortcomings.

Isaac July 16, 2022 at 08:30 #719542
Quoting Agent Smith
Take two people A & B. Inform A on comfirmation bias aka cherry-picking and keep the other, B, in the dark about this bias. Ask both to analyze their beliefs. There should be a noticeable difference betwixt the two in my humble opinion


Uh huh. And which part of the published theory on cherry-picking predicted that would not happen?
Agent Smith July 16, 2022 at 08:33 #719545
Quoting Isaac
Uh huh. And which part of the published theory on cherry-picking predicted that would not happen?


Well, if a (psychological) "theory" predicts both a behavior and its contradictory, it ain't a scientific theory now is it (unfalsifiable) - a theory that explains everything explains nothing. Good question nevertheless! Please continue.
Isaac July 16, 2022 at 08:47 #719552
Quoting Agent Smith
if a (psychological) "theory" predicts both a behavior and its contradictory, it ain't a scientific theory now is it (unfalsifiable)


Not at all, it predicts cognitive bias in those unaware of the issue and less so in those aware of it. Easily falsifiable by showing a general lack of cognitive bias in those unaware of the issue and a greater effect in those aware of it.
Agent Smith July 16, 2022 at 08:50 #719554
Quoting Isaac
Not at all, it predicts cognitive bias in those unaware of the issue and less so in those aware of it. Easily falsifiable by showing a general lack of cognitive bias in those unaware of the issue and a greater effect in those aware of it.


I thought you'd say that! However, what's odd about it is that it amounts to saying the cure itself is a disease! Please continue.
Benkei July 16, 2022 at 10:12 #719572
Reply to Count Timothy von Icarus I by and large agree with the point you're making so these are two quibbles but I think important enough to mention.

1. I don't know about the FED but full employment is not a goal of the ECB, that's solely price stability (which is my biggest gripe with ECB policy, see 2).
2. Price stability/inflation control was sold as necessary for growth and to stave of crises, which it never did, yet you assume we need to control inflation. Only hyperinflation is an issue in my view. That's not to say there aren't immediate political policy concerns to act on it but I disagree this has to be monetary policy.

Mikie July 16, 2022 at 15:44 #719608
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
simply look at the percentage of all equities held by the top 0.1%, 1%, and 10% wealthiest individuals in developed economies. Rising stock values inflate the value of assets largely held by the wealthy.


Yes.

Corporations borrow money— cheap money— and this increase their debt. Record levels of corporate debt. Where does this money go? The same question can be asked about subsidies, bailouts, and tax cuts.

They often make record profits— and where do the profits go anyway?

The answer is: roughly 90% of net earnings are distributed to shareholders in the form of dividends and buybacks.

Stock buybacks are also done with borrowed money and tax cut savings.

When it comes to bailouts, as we all saw in 2009, the top executives end up with millions of dollars of compensation— far more than the average worker. The current ratio of CEO pay to average worker pay is about 350:1.

All of this is justified by trickle-down economics. If you favor the supply-side (the owners/employers/corporations), you make sure you cut their taxes, give them cheap loans, and if things get too bad you bail them out through QE and fiscal gifts — because they’re too big to fail. This is basically the last 40 years of neoliberal policy — ironically the age of “free markets” and “small government.”

The result has been, predictably, the wealth inequality you describe, monopolization, and corporatocracy. But it’s really a power inequality. And the bigger that gap becomes, the worse things will get.

The Fed raising interests rates won’t change a thing. Except make the 90% more poor and make it harder to buy a house and take out loans. It’ll saddle even more people with ridiculous levels of harder-to-pay off debt.





Count Timothy von Icarus July 16, 2022 at 16:20 #719618
Reply to Benkei
Good quibble. Yes, I was thinking more of the Fed than the ECB. In terms of inflation, I agree in part. High inflation isn't as apocalyptic as it is made out to be. Indeed, there are some good things about it:

1. Less wealthy households tend to have significantly higher debt to earnings and debt to asset ratios. This means that inflation, which erodes the value of their debt, can help with inequality (obviously a lot of other factors come into play).

2. High inflation isn't as huge issue so long as increases in wages keep up and inflation is predictable. Neither of these hold though; despite cries about a labor shortage, wage growth is not keeping up with inflation. Notably though, early on in this inflationary period, wage growth for the lowest earners was actually outpacing inflation by quite a bit, representing the largest real wage gains for low income workers in decades. This is no longer the case though, they are losing those gains.

That all said, because the massive amount of leverage employers have built up over the past several decades due to globalization and the ability to "off-shore" jobs, large increases in migration (and thus the supply of labor and demand for housing), and automation, I don't think wages are likely to keep pace with sustained high inflation.

Inflation also hurts retirees most, since they are likely reliant on pensions that are hurt by inflation and fixed income investments that lose value and real returns as inflation grows. Since the US electorate is dominated by older voters, this means there will be huge pressure to whip inflation.

So, my point isn't so much that inflation itself is the biggest issue facing the economy, it's that it is the most salient issue politically, and that here the interests of the wealthy and every one else diverges. Higher interest rates that reduce inflation might be the best policy for the bottom 90%, but it will be very detrimental to the price of equities, which are overwhelmingly held by the wealthy. I think this explains why responses to inflation remain fairly anemic despite public outcry over rising prices. And while inflation can be temporary, the effects of millions of Millennials buying their first homes during a period of 20-30% annual price increases in many markets can hurt growth for decades.
Count Timothy von Icarus July 16, 2022 at 16:33 #719619
Reply to Xtrix

The Fed raising interests rates won’t change a thing. Except make the 90% more poor and make it harder to buy a house and take out loans. It’ll saddle even more people with ridiculous levels of harder-to-pay off debt.


Research on the effects of long term low interest rates appears to show that they are a major driver of inequality. This is something that was only investigated recently, because low rates were thought to be fairly benign.

High interest rates aren't the worst thing in the world. Think about the effects on housing. When interest rates on mortgages fall, home prices get bid up because people can afford larger mortgages. What we saw early in the pandemic was historic, rock bottom interest rates helping to spike home prices. Now, would you rather have a large principal at a low rate or a lower principal at a high rate? If your monthly payments are equal, you might want the higher rate because you can refinance when rates fall. You're stuck with the high principal and if prices fall you end up underwater. Yes, you build equity faster with a lower rate, but the trade off is less opportunity to refinance, which in some cases is not in homeowner's favor.

In terms of other asset classes, I'd argue the middle class is much better off with higher rates. They can get out of the stock market, where they are at a massive informational disadvantage, and get their yields from bonds. There is also the nice advantage of bonds actually generating economic activity, while money thrown at equities outside new offerings does very little to generate investment.
Mikie July 16, 2022 at 18:02 #719640
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Research on the effects of long term low interest rates appears to show that they are a major driver of inequality. This is something that was only investigated recently, because low rates were thought to be fairly benign.


They are— yes. Why? Because it ultimately leads to increased stock prices, and the top 10% own more than 80% of the stocks. So that will increase their wealth. Meanwhile the 90%, whose real wages have stagnated for decades, simply have less interest to pay on mortgages and credit cards and car loans.

That doesn’t mean raising interest rates will help either. The wealthy will find alternatives. They will be fine one way or another. If workers wages rise 5%, inflation goes up 8% — they increase the prices of their product. If stocks take a dive, they’ll invest in bonds or commodities or emerging markets. Or lobby the government for more aid, or more tax cuts, or find a way to avoid paying taxes altogether. Plenty of options for the wealthy — they will do just fine, and inequality will continue to rise long after the Fed hikes rates.

Real wages have continued to stagnate/decline, and now the borrowing/debt that fills in the gap between household income and the kind of expenditures that sustain a “middle class” life (house, car) or working class life (rent, car, food, gas, utilities, healthcare) will simply be more expensive over the long run. So the 90% will be asked to tighten their belts, work harder, give up any dream of being debt-free or owning property, forget buying a house and probably forget having kids. This is in fact what we’ve already seen.

So there’s no chance the Fed raising rates will change inequality. There’s little chance it even brings down general inflation, come to think of it, since the money they created didn’t go to people, it went to companies — so that they could use it to boost the wealth of the elites who own 80% of their stocks. So it may lower equity markets. It will probably lower housing markets too.

Otherwise there’s little that the Fed can do about wages, about price gouging, about stock buybacks, about supply chain disruptions, commodity shortages, climate change or wars. Inflation is global right now, for global reasons.



Mikie July 16, 2022 at 18:05 #719641
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
High interest rates aren't the worst thing in the world. Think about the effects on housing. When interest rates on mortgages fall, home prices get bid up because people can afford larger mortgages. What we saw early in the pandemic was historic, rock bottom interest rates helping to spike home prices.


It wasn’t just low interest rates. It was also low inventory. Ask any realtor. New construction hasn’t kept up for years, and people who did own a home were reluctant to sell during the pandemic.



abstract-project July 17, 2022 at 07:42 #719853
Quoting Xtrix
Otherwise there’s little that the Fed can do about wages, about price gouging, about stock buybacks, about supply chain disruptions, commodity shortages, climate change or wars. Inflation is global right now, for global reasons.


The Fed can only manage the short term effects of all this stuff. Right now it is sending a signal to employers that it will stop any potential wage spiral. It will engineer a recession if that is what's needed to lower worker's expectations.

The discourse around Powell's confirmation was grim. I'm still new to a lot of this stuff, but it was eye opening to see how many people think the Fed is the only arm of the government that can function properly. It's only good for saving banks during a crisis and crushing labor when it begins to organize.

Basically the Fed plays an important role in allowing capitalism to survive. It can't do much to make capital operate in a fair or productive way, but it stops the system from collapsing.
Count Timothy von Icarus July 17, 2022 at 14:12 #719951
Reply to Xtrix
For sure, I didn't mean to imply it was one thing. I just wanted to point out the relationship between mortgage rates and home prices. Lower rates push prices higher. Arguably the single biggest factor aside from population growth pushing home prices up for the past 20 years is computers and the automation of tons of legal work that used to be done by hand. Houses as an asset have become incredibly more liquid, which has caused investors to poor into the asset class. The time it takes to sell a house becoming so much shorter makes its liquidity premium go up significantly.

My main point was simply that low rates are generally seen as good for working class people. This isn't necessarily true. All else equal, if you expect rates to fall in the future, you may be better off with a high rate and lower principal on your mortgage.

Reply to abstract-project
The Fed has historically been staffed by appointed specialists. It also has a great deal of political independence and insulation from public opinion. I think this explains the better performance.

Unfortunately, monetary policy can only move the needle on things so much. Fiscal policy needs to be a major mover in any solution.

US elections systems are almost tailor made to result in legislators who are significantly more radical than the median voter. Add in the blisteringly short two year election cycle, first past the post, winner take all voting that stifles third party competition, and the undemocratic structure of Congress, and it is a recipe for deadlock and political chaos. Demagogues have a significant advantage in the closed, first past the post primary system for selecting party candidates and the skillet for winning elections is not the same as the skillet for governing.

Ironically, the system wasn't set up this way. The Electoral College and the power of state legislatures to pick senators was designed as a check on "the will of the mob." Now those capabilities help the mob keep the GOP alive as a viable rival to the Democrats, even though they have won more votes in just one national election in almost a third of a century (and that one they won with the benefit of an incumbency from an election where they received less votes, and still won by a very narrow margin).

But I think the problems with these very old institutions have given us the wrong idea. The solution is seen as more direct democracy. I don't think this is the best idea.

Every study I've seen shows that appointed professional city and county managers tend to perform better on virtually every metric than elected mayors and commissioners. To be sure, there have been corrupt city managers, but they're much less likely to have corruption issues than mayors. Cities with city administrators and CAFOs, essentially city managers appointed by the mayor instead of the local council, also drastically improve outcomes. We also see how much better the Fed preforms than Congress.

To my mind, it certainly makes sense that this would work just as well on larger scales. There are other changes we need, instant run off or even closed list voting, open primaries, easier access to voting, the Wyoming rule to make House representation based on equal population again, representatives for DC, etc. However, a big change for the good would be replacing first past the post popular elections for governors and the presidency with appointed professionals. You still have elections, just like the city manager system, but the elections are for a small executive council to pick the governor or president. And I do mean "small," over 13 people or so you tend to start getting factionalism and less quality debate.

The executive council gets to pick the executive and then also act as advocates of their constituency to the executive. The executive is picked based on professional credentials for a specified term. They can also be removed by the council, normally with a slightly larger share of the vote (e.g., seven votes needed to appoint a leader, 9 needed to remove them). Rather than term limits, one way to deal with incumbency inertia is to raise the number of votes needed to reappoint a popular leader over time. So you might need just 7 votes for the first two terms, but then 9 for term three, and 11 for term four, and unanimous consent to continue on after that. This avoids the problem of term limits cutting out high quality leaders.


Side note:

I think the downsides of term limits really showed with the election of Donald Trump on extremely narrow margins verses an historically unpopular Democratic candidate. There is little doubt Barack Obama would have steamrolled Trump on a way to a third term and he is a leader who I think improved over time. Nor are three term candidates likely. We had one person make it past two terms in all the years it was legal to go over two terms. Since then, only Reagan and Obama had solid shots at winning a third term. Reagan likely would not have run again anyhow due to dementia issues, but even if he did, he'd be resigning and giving power to Bush, the guy who succeeded him anyhow. Obama had his faults, but was a very steady leader during a tumultuous time, and while alternative history gets murky the further you go out, I can see us in a much better place right now if we was settling into his fourth term.

Mikie July 17, 2022 at 22:11 #720103
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
I just wanted to point out the relationship between mortgage rates and home prices. Lower rates push prices higher.


I know you’re not implying one thing, but emphasis is important. So yes, I’d be a fool not to notice interest rates has a very real effect on the housing market. But what I’m ultimately fighting against is the idea that inflation is a matter of too much money in the economy. It’s just used as a cover to criticize increases in wages and working people getting a little money— god forbid.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
My main point was simply that low rates are generally seen as good for working class people. This isn't necessarily true.


Low or high rates really don’t matter much for working people. They’re screwed one or another. The majority of benefits goes to the wealthy. That’s my point.


Pantagruel July 18, 2022 at 10:46 #720288
Given sufficient inflation, the cost of everything goes up. Including the costs of businesses that collapse and life-savings that are lost.

Yes, even income goes up. Unfortunately, it doesn't keep pace with the costs of everything else......
Ennui Elucidator July 18, 2022 at 18:17 #720368
Reply to Count Timothy von Icarus

I suspect we will have this conversation from two very different perspectives, but here are some initial reactions to the general area of equity value increasing.

Markets are not necessarily tied at the hip - what is true in the US is not true in Japan and trying to make broad historic comparisons devoid of any nuance is fraught. If one is to consider the long-term trend of large cap stocks, it feels like the trend should be limited to an appropriate context/scope rather than universalized.

Large cap stocks (or publicly traded equities more generally) in the US are in a weird position precisely because of some of the things you hinted at but did not necessarily explore - the need for the average schmago who hopes to stop working at some point to somehow provide for their own "income" in later life. The US has perversely incentivized savings vehicles which favor equities. What this ends up meaning is that there is a constant influx of new money into a market that is already fully owned, i.e. for new money to make an "investment" it has to get the old securities from someone willing to sell. The entire large cap market simply goes up in value sufficient to absorb the new money being poured into it. This is the case irrespective of the performance of the underlying securities absent there being an alternative investment to absorb the new money (see the recent stupidity regarding things like crypto and efts).

Because people are placing huge sums of money in the public equities market, it has become a store of value that is unrelated to the "fundamentals". For instance, if you are discussing "income" as in the stock paying capacity of a publicly traded entity, you are missing the current justification for modern investments: total return. One does not invest money in hopes of "income", rather people are investing in hopes of capital appreciation that is realizable upon sale of the security (rather than liquidation of the entity). Until such time people are convinced that the large cap equities are not a store of value with a realistic potential for outsized total returns, there is no danger of the overall investment class declining - there will just be a shifting of value from one equity (share of stock) to another.

Debt capital is not independent of equity capital. Where businesses can attract necessary financing through new equity at tolerable rates of return, the features of equity may exceed the allure of the benefits of debt. The current interest rates are as much market driven as controlled by a particular inter-bank interest rate and lenders have been tripping over themselves to basically give away (loan) money for free. Lending appears to be more like an inflation hedge rather than a place to make profits (and this might be heavily influenced by packaging of debt instruments to be sold as secondary instruments). Yes, there are large interest rates to be had in areas like consumer debt (credit cards), but the rates of default and what not may not make those avenues of lending as lucrative as the face value of interest suggests.

Ultimately, I think much of this relies on the idea that "you can't beat the market." People are required to invest but lack the skills/time/resources to make informed choices (choices that exploit differing values/investment goals rather than asymmetry of knowledge). Money keeps pouring in because it must and early investors are keen to take advantage of their privileged status to make giant gains on IPOS or other secondary offerings (to institutional investors or consumers). Perhaps it is most easily summed up with the idea that those who can afford to lose are poised to win and those who can't afford to lose are stuck in a rat race of funding the winners while hoping that they can get out before the market moves on. As long as everyone keeps faith, the scheme continues - if people lose faith, it all falls apart.

In any event, the value of the dollar (or any currency) is a function of the market in which it is exchanged. Actually productivity is independent of the way in which it is valued and what we see is that our markets (driven principally by large cap behavior) continue to increase their productivity and there is little reason to believe that the rate of increase of productivity will slow down, i.e. large cap stocks should see real growth.