Shamanism is the root of all spiritual, religious and philosophical systems
Shamanism is the root of all religious, spiritual and philosophical systems. Our human (and non-human) ancestors have practiced Shamanism as far back as 100,000 years, all around the planet; regardless of culture, time and/or place. The study and practice of altering human consciousness for purposes of divination, healing, conflict and other similar needs is innate to our species. I would go as far as saying that altering consciousness is innate to all of life; but that's a conversation for another thread.
As mentioned above, Shamanism is not isolated to a specific culture, time or place. And the modern world is no different. As such, being an atheist, I am pleased with the return on the investment I've made from my time studying and practicing Technoshamanism. Wherein (through my research, experiences, exeperimentations and relationships) I have observed the universal effectiveness of Shamanic technologies. An example of which can be found below:
I make the claim that Shamanism is more quintessential than all other religious, spiritual and philosophical systems. And that science (itself) is a shamanic practice; testing and applying the best solution(s) for the challenges and curiosities that one faces. Meaning that the scientific method is nothing more than a Shamanic mantra; but certainly not a dogma. Shamanism is flexible like that.
As mentioned above, Shamanism is not isolated to a specific culture, time or place. And the modern world is no different. As such, being an atheist, I am pleased with the return on the investment I've made from my time studying and practicing Technoshamanism. Wherein (through my research, experiences, exeperimentations and relationships) I have observed the universal effectiveness of Shamanic technologies. An example of which can be found below:
I make the claim that Shamanism is more quintessential than all other religious, spiritual and philosophical systems. And that science (itself) is a shamanic practice; testing and applying the best solution(s) for the challenges and curiosities that one faces. Meaning that the scientific method is nothing more than a Shamanic mantra; but certainly not a dogma. Shamanism is flexible like that.
Comments (57)
"The truth" of what?
Put some examples of "non-human" ancestors, please.
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
No. Shamanism is not a "root" of religion but it is a religion itself. Look, I will put some examples and you will see how Shamanism is so connected with another type of religion:
1. Shamanism depends on the predicate of a prophet, called "Shaman". As much as the other religions: Christianity (Jesus as a prophet) Judaism (Abraham) etc...
2. There are not doctrines or theories of rationalism. You only have to accept what the Shaman adopts. You would not see inside shamanism different "theories" or "opposition parts" because that's only up to philosophy.
3. Shamanism depends on faith as religion. The only difference is that in shamanism you believe in the "power" of the spirits of nature instead of God.
I cannot see where you can introduce philosophy in those points...
Yes, animism seems to be a real precursor of shamanism or even some religions such as Shinto in Asia. The quick read I did give me the feeling that it fits what the OP is looking for: "roots" which expand other types of thoughts.
Nevertheless, I still think that philosophy is apart from these "beliefs"
:up:
We can never know what is going on in the OP's mind because he always tends to not answer our thoughts and posts:cry:
He has the right to remain silent! :lol:
Oh man.
Shamanism isn't a religion. Shamanism is a set of tools.
Shamans aren't prophets. Anyone can be a shaman. Everyone is a shaman, most commonly without training or an awareness of such an innate state. Just like all actions are magick, so too is all consciousness shamanic; especially human consciousness.
Are you religious yourself?
There is no faith in shamanism. Shamanism is about evidence, showing the goods.
Woah.
To be honest, I'm intimidated to respond to the minds/posts found herein. Everyone knows so much more than me. But that is a poor excuse, as learning is the greatest resource I can offer myself ATM.
I'm here, just shell shocked.
I do, but I'm breaking open and out of my shell to more deeply engage with the world around and within me. Little by little.
Bonam fortunam, mon ami! Let your journey not end in you concluding that you were better off in your shell!
Thank you good person, thank you. I appreciate your blessings.
How much of shaimanism, old and new, is about promoting faith in something objective? A true religion knows that you can only have faith in something objective, while trying to alter your consciousness seems to be a subjective practice
What kind of tools?
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
But if I do not have the proper tools then my actions are not "magick" neither my consciousness is shamanic
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
What? There couldn't be evidence about "showing the goods" because that's a very generic concept. Discern about what is good and bad depends on ethics, thus philosophy. We say there are "goods" when we make actions which cause them but not thanks to shamanism.
Look you are contradictory when you say shamanism is not about faith but at the same time you typed:
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
What is "magick" nothing but a state of faith on something?
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
No
If you check out information about Shamanism, all the papers written by specialists, agree with the fact that shamans are related to some kind of religion. Their principles are connected to animism (as @180 Proof pointed out previously).
This traditional thought is also related to Indigenous religion... the range of different belief systems across the Americas, Australasia, Asia, Africa, and Northern Europe, particularly to those practiced by communities living under the impact of colonialism.
What you say seems to be historical account of shamanism; not denying the experts on that point.
What I've shared on this forum are merely my own analysis of what could be seen as a proto-religion. Shamanism never really took off like religions in real life though there's a mystique surrounding it, this being the result of romanticized fictional tales woven by writers, playwrights and film-makers around sorcerers and especially powerful sorceresses. :smile:
Shamanism has always been romanticised by hippies! :sweat:
:up:
:up:
:lol:
To some extent you're correct. But is that inherently a negative trend? Is it so wrong that a subculture wishes to revisit our collective human roots?
More importantly, is it not possible that among the so-called "hippies", that there are genuine and earnest seekers of empirical spiritual truths?
That's an interesting question. The answer is, "None." Shamanism doesn't promote faith in anything. Shamanism is about firsthand, direct revelation. IOW, Shamanism is about relying on evidence. Always has been, always will be.
Which is another excellent reason why Shamanism isn't a religion.
But don't take my word for it. Do your own research and experiments to verify these kinds of statements.
No, I don't think it is negative. But what I guess is that "hippies" don't understand animism or shamanism pretty much. They just follow it because it seems to be "cool" being connected with nature but I personally think such theory is far of this thought...
At least, you take it so seriously and I respect it. I mean, I see you can find some significance in the "root of universe" thanks to shamanism but at the same time, it is a primitive thought.
Conclusion: it is not bad believing in shamanism but is far away from being a philosophical trend.
In terms of ends, si; in terms of means, nope! The question is, who's got it right?
Verisimilitude! Sometimes, not all the time, our feelings get the better of us! It's just part of nam-lu-รบlu If I don't make mistakes, how will you learn. Aah, but I digress!
[quote=Ranjeet]A thousand apologies.[/quote]
:up:
Imagine if there were no secular arts.
In indigenous times, there was no demarcation between spiritual and secular.
So yeah, if music wasn't secularized (taken out of a religious/spiritual context), then these same anthropologists who claim Shamanism is religious would probably say that, "Music is a religious ritual".
Well, yes. But this is due to the fact that they didn't experience Enlightenment until the colonialism turned up. There was no demarcation because they didn't know what a secular system was about. I mean, they way of life was full of metaphors and shamanic rituals. Their citizens didn't have other choices.
I agree.
My point is that anything within a religious context, as far as I can tell, can be secularized, other than a belief in God, I suppose. They probably saw having sex and giving birth as sacred acts. Does that mean having sex and giving birth are related to the sacred?
Edit: Actually, I think God can be taken out of a religious context too. But it has a lot to do with linguistics.
Quoting Yohan
I think not. Here I disagree. "God" is an elementary religious subterfuge used by all the religions. It cannot be explained out of religious doctrines because otherwise, it would be secularism and faith.
Also, the belief in God depends on faith. This concept is so much related to shamanism, animism, Judaism, Christianity, etc...
I do not know if these "thoughts" can see God outside a religious context.
I disagree with the fundamental notion that the ancients were necessarily, on the whole, more primitive in their development.
I think a lot of ancient mythology, for example, is very subtle and complex. What modern literature do we have that compares? Marvel Universe?
Sure, maybe it was only the minority in ancient times that were highly developed, while the masses were primitive brutes.
And what of today? Are not the masses cave men with smartphones?
It is true that primitive group were not less developed. But for a lot of reasons they weren't part of the "progress" because some decided to got stuck in their primitive thoughts and ideas while other groups started to develop different ideas.
You put a good example: mythology. This area of knowledge was pretty important to Ancient Greece, indeed. But keep in mind that it was "primitive" according to Plato and Socratic philosophers.
Philosophy started because in Ionia some thinkers decided to critique mythology because they saw it as "backwards"
Quoting Yohan
Completely agree. Good example of our modern era.
I dunno. It may be a natural hierarchy. In the ancient Indian caste system, the Brahmins, or scholarly class, were the smallest class. Today philosophers and scientists are still the minority. If everyone performed the duty of the scholars, who would farm and build?
Quoting javi2541997
I thinks mythology was important in every ancient culture. Most are of it has not been preserved.
I doubt the Socratic philosophers thought it was primitive. They were probably critical of interpreting it literally and romanticising it. Explicit vs implicit interpretation can make the difference between primitive and profound.
On another note, free thinkers have to either hide their thoughts in symbols and metaphors (implicit) or else risk backlash from those who don't want to have their comfortable beliefs rattled up. Eg, the execution of Socrates.
If Shamanism is the oldest tradition of exploring the deeper side of life, it could be considered the primordial tradition of higher learning.
:up: :100:
A minority group which is capable of controlling those farmers and builders. We still live like in the Roman Empire and Ancient Greece but with internet.
:100:
From the very cursory things I looked up, it's described as a religious practice originating in Europe in which there are shamans that can be claimed to have attained transcendent powers. Can't really extrapolate from that how it would be the root of all things. I guess it would be helpful if you could give us your perspective on what Shamanism is and how its practiced.
Thank you for the inquest.
I was going to attempt an explanation in one succinct response, but that doesn't seem possible ATM. What I will do, however, is spend a couple of weeks writing a 1,000 - 3,000 word overview of my understanding of Shamanism And then when finished, I will share the essay/article here as a response in this thread.
Shamanism is an important philosophical thread in my life, and taking the time to explore why and how such is the case, will do good for those interested in learning more, as well as myself. Please be patient with my response, and understand that I will follow through with this objective. I have a lot to divulge.
I believe that you should give a definition or description of "shamanism", first thing, before anything else. So, I will do that for you, even if it's a little late ....
"Shamanism is a religious practice that involves a practitioner (shaman) interacting with what they believe to be a spirit world through altered states of consciousness, such as trance. The goal of this is usually to direct spirits or spiritual energies into the physical world for the purpose of healing, divination, or to aid human beings in some other way." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism)
(Anyone is welcome to present another description, from a standard source. However, I believe that its essence and main elements, esp. the necessity of the existence of a shaman and (powerful) spirits are all here.)
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
Is this a personal belief or is there an evidence/documentation about that?
Because I have a difficulty connecting Shamanism to ancient philosophy --Egyptian, Greek, Chinese or other.
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
Again what is the reference you are using regarding time? Not that it is important per se, of course, but it has to do with the validity of the history of Shamanism, which you are bringing in.
Here's a reference, again from Wiki:
"Sanskrit scholar and comparative mythologist Michael Wetzel proposes that all of the world's mythologies, and also the concepts and practices of shamans, can be traced to the migrations of two prehistoric populations: the "Gondwana" type (of circa 65,000 years ago) and the "Laurasian" type (of circa 40,000 years ago)."
Then, what do you mean by "and non-human"? Someone like this: :naughty: ?
:grin:
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
Do you really believe that such a video or what the people do in it, can heal? Or that it can offer useful and important knowledge about life and existence, i.e. philosophical ideas, education, etc. ... (Besides what one should avoid doing?)
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
Just to make sure: Do you mean that Shamanism is more refined, of higher quality and class than philosophy as a system and quest for wisdom?
(Of course you don't. But you make it sound like this!)
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
...
Bret, were you under drugs when you posted this? :smile:
I asked the same question too and I still wait for an answer because it intrigues me a lot what he would consider as a "non - human ancestor"
How's it going? I'm happy to respond to each of your points and questions. Here we go...
There is plenty of documentation, the evidence is all around you. And I'm compiling a post for this thread (which I will release on 9/11/22) exploring what's real in detail. And if you have a difficult time connecting the dots between Shamanism and ancient human philosophy, I would encourage you to investigate Divination, Hermeticism and Gnosis.
Shamanism is timeless. All entities, either directly or indirectly, rely on Shamanism (and/or mutations and products of it). 100,000 years is a simple means of implying that pragmatic approaches to altering consciousness, and then using such states for gain, have been with us (and all others) since the beginning of time.
Every entity, any entity (from living animals to eternal tulpas) utilize elements of Shamanism. You do too, whether you acknowledge it or not.
If you're referring to the first video I shared, then my answer is "Yes". You probably don't appreciate what you're looking at there.
However, if you're referring to the second video I shared, then my answer is "No". This video is only informational. But pursuing Technoshamanism is a path towards wisdom and healing, yes. All technologies are sacred, especially modern information technologies.
Learn to code. And ascend.
Shamanism is a systematic and philosophical quest for wisdom. So, no.
Nope. That's rather rude of you to even ask.
Quoting How Confirmation Bias Works
It's not philosophy because, like this thread, it is not self-critical.
It looks like just making shit up.
Those (animals and "tulpas") are not even aware of themselves. Conciousness is a complex concept related to human knowledge. If a living animal has a very limited conciousness I guess they are not able to "practice" shamanism because they are not aware of such complexity...
:100:
Thank you for the taking the time to post that long a reply.
And here's my equally long reply.
Please don't see it as criticism. I'm only looking for answers and trying to fill in the puzzle created in me by this subject and its description. However, after this, I see that instead of filling in the missing pieces, new pieces are added. So, I'm afraid I'm dealing here with a Sisyphean task or the heads of Lernaean Hydra! :grin:
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
Where is that plenty of documentation? Where is this evidence around me?
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
Let's see what Wikipedia says:
- Divination (from Latin [i]divinare, 'to foresee, to foretell, to predict, to prophesy') is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of an occultic, standardized process or ritual. Used in various forms throughout history, diviners ascertain their interpretations of how a querent should proceed by reading signs, events, or omens, or through alleged contact with a supernatural agency."[/i]
So, this has nothing to do whith philosophy.
- "Hermeticism, or Hermetism, is a label used to designate a philosophical system that is primarily based on the purported teachings of Hermes Trismegistus (a legendary Hellenistic combination of the Greek god Hermes and the Egyptian god Thoth). These teachings are contained in the various writings attributed to Hermes (the Hermetica), which were produced over a period spanning many centuries (c.?300 BCE ย 1200 CE), and may be very different in content and scope."
So, this is indeed a philosophical system, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Shamanism. Besides, look at the dates ...
- "Gnosis is the common Greek noun for knowledge (gnosis, f.). The term was used among various Hellenistic religions and philosophies in the Greco-Roman world. It is best known for its implication within Gnosticism, where it signifies a spiritual knowledge or insight into humanity's real nature as divine, leading to the deliverance of the divine spark within humanity from the constraints of earthly existence."
So, this has indeed something to do with philosophy, but in a very vague way.
Well, about a month ago you had posted a topic/poll "Gnosis is underappreciated and (often) slandered against as a legitimate form of spirituality", in which you didn't offer a definition either, and I had to do it for you, as in this topic! Yet, I would really prefer to offer yourself definitions or descriptions of the key terms in the subjects you are posting, like "Gnosis", "Shamanism". )
Anyway, I have explained the reasons why "Gnosis" is "underappreciated". (See https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/721553)
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
So, there no documentation about the 100,000 years you mentioned and it was just a figure of speech. meaning that Shamanism existed from the beginning of times, right? That is, before humans or even life appeared in the Universe?
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
Ah, I see. You meant animals. OK. I couldn't think of that ...
But let me udestand this, I mean how animals could or can use a kind of Shamanism ...Certainly, there's no shaman wolf in a pack of wolves who communicates with the spirits of powerful volves that have died, etc. OK, but even if used in a metaphorical sense, how could something that resembles Shamanism work in a pack of wolves?
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
OK. I admit I can't.
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
OK. this is too much! :angry: You have just killed my patience and goodwill in responding to you about this fiction you have posted and total lack of logic you are demonstrating.
You are not in a position to ask from people to learn --anything-- neither to ascend --in any way--, after all this fictional and unfounded things you keep talking about, and the low level of logic and knowledge you are demonstrating.
***
This is all from me. I won't come back to this thread or respond to any other post from you.
Is the "non-human" part the only strange thing that hit you in this topic? :smile:
Well, from what I indestood from his answer, he refers to animals (not aliens as I thought) ... That is, Shamanism in animals! Well, I would prefer he meant aliens! :grin:
Why not? Why post to a philosophy forum if you are not looking for criticism?
But he said, specifically, non-humans ancestors
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
He wasn't referring to living animals or tulpas or whatever until he answered your quotes.
This is why it shocked me. How can we have non-human ancestors when we are already humans?
It is pretty contradictory...
You are rtight to say that. But see, usually, and in everyday life, esp. in personal relationships, criticism is viewed in a negative sense; mainly as an effort to find only faults in someone's words, behaviour, etc., i.e. trying to see only negative things in something or someone. And this was the case in this OP: I found only faults. And it's not the first time. That's why sometimes my comments have a bad reception from the other side, even I give good and a lot of reasons why a term, statement, argument is wrong of wrongly used. So, I call sometimes this as "constructive criticism".
On the other hand, in philosophy critical thinking is vital, and it must be used in discussions. But this is a much richer and important concept than "criticism".
You are right. I forgot about ancestors!
Well, I tried to make the poster undestand the mistakes he did --in fact, almost everything in this OP has no sense and is full of contradictions, unfounded statements, confused thoughts and inexistent or wrong facts-- but in return I only received more of them! A total waste of time. So, I stopped caring about this OP.
Your intentions were welcomed, friend. I see that you wanted to know what was going on with this thread as I tried it too. But there are still more questions than answers...
Exactly. And that's why I stopped caring. I suggest you do the same thing, otherwise you might have shamanic nightmares! :grin:
Oh boy! :rofl: :death: