Sanna Marin
So, I thought it was just because it's the slow news cycle that people complained about Sanna Marin partying.
But actually it's pretty crazy that a highly succesful woman, who also happens to dance well, is forced for political reasons to take a drugtest.
Here's BoJo admitting to drug use: https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-drugs
James Buchanan was an alcoholist. Andrew Jackson a gambler.
So is this just another example of a double standard/mysoginy?
But actually it's pretty crazy that a highly succesful woman, who also happens to dance well, is forced for political reasons to take a drugtest.
Here's BoJo admitting to drug use: https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-drugs
James Buchanan was an alcoholist. Andrew Jackson a gambler.
So is this just another example of a double standard/mysoginy?
Comments (157)
No. It is not about double standard. She is the PM and public representative of a nation. She has the aim to act in the most honorable and rectitude way possible. We are living in a difficult social context and we expect from a statesman to be, at least, professional. Right?
It is quite contradictory, isn't it? Probably she has the average discourse of how to be an exemplary citizen and look at her dancing and acting like an immature teenager.
A politician should not be involved in "private" affairs because she is a public representative. If you cannot avoid private practices, do not be a politician and stay as an average person in society.
Some of the characteristics of a good politician are transparency and straightness
Then why not discuss what she has done professionally rather than clutching your pearls because she was videoed dancing at a private party?
It is unprofessional because of her behaviour. It is not all about to "dance" in a "private" party. We are not debating about a normal person as you and me but the PM of Finland.
We should expect more straightness from a PM. We even criticised Boris Johson for the same reason when he was partying at downing street
But Benkei started this OP to debate about this specific behaviour not her professional agenda...
Come on now. Think for a second about how ridiculous this sounds. You still have a right to privacy, even if you're a politician. She did nothing illegal -- she drank and danced. I'm sure she has sex too -- should we say the same thing if someone released a video of that? Is having sex "unprofessional" or beneath the dignity of the office?
I think it is a double standard, and the standard being: when an famous attractive woman is recorded dancing, make sure to play the video a hundred thousand times -- good for clicks and ratings. They tried to do the same thing with AOC a couple years ago -- dug up an old college video of her dancing around, and played it relentlessly for the same reasons. That backfired, and this will too I think.
But you said:
Quoting javi2541997
If you are to judge her professionalism you should do so with regard to her actions in her professional capacity.
Quoting javi2541997
What we should expect is statesmanship, the ability to steer the ship of state. It seems more than a bit quaint to hold to a standard of professionalism that excludes dancing at a time where true statesmanship is so rare. You mistake the illusion of a staid public image for statecraft. Appearance over substance.
It is not that 'crazy' when going through the variable 'outcomes' concerning various consumers of drugs. Not only is a head of state the highest representative of a particular state but such a position brings great responsibility with it as well. A/The head of (any) state can endorse or authorize major decisions which can (and will) affect many national and international matters. Drugs-usage in general is known to destabilize people rather than to add to their equilibrium (and no, not all people). Taken all facts into consideration I'm not surprised at all about the motivation to drugs-test such a high profiler.
The dishonor of the mating dance of that harlot should get her removed. I was shocked. How could such a whore ever govern?
We criticized him because he was breaking the law.
Jesus... :brow:
Does this include alcohol?
Good for her. There is no problem with her partying and dancing and having fun. Politicians are mammals. The sooner critics get that through their heads the better. She should to own it and flaunt it in their faces.
One of the problems with politics is the expectation that politicians ought to be paragons of virtue, a standard which isn’t possible in any case. Such an expectation forces the politician to work towards better “optics” than policy or governance.
Is this a case of a narcissist, btw? Not sure.
The question is purely a democratic one, which is whether that will get her or lose her votes. In itself, that wouldn't affect my vote one way or the other. That it would affect others just means some rely upon irrelevant information when choosing their candidates.
How you can diagnose a personality disorder from her acting like plenty of women her age I don't really follow.
And yes, of course, the mere mention of the word "narcissist" would get anyone triste.
Look at the responses on this thread. One even posted a video of Trump? Why? Why do you guys need a counter-example of what many call a terrible, deranged man (not my own words) just to put her actions in a better light? Why not choose a statesman, a representative, a leader, or someone who represents a kingdom and put them side by side. You guys chose Trump, an alcoholic, a gambler, and a drug addict to make your point? So, something tells me, the issue is more grave than what you guys seem to say.
Choose a better counter-example, not Trump, for christ's sake.
That's a strawman. I didn't say she should get a pass because Trump is worse. I pretty clearly said her actions were fine under any standard.
She seems remarkably normal. That's what I saw.
You lost your mojo here.
And I'm gonna tell you again:
This thread launched a support against the scrutiny of her behavior using counterexamples of men that are Trump, alcoholic, drug addict, and a gambler. I'd like to know why the counter examples are the worst kinds?
Please explain this part? Benkei started this thread and in his OP, this is what I read.
I also agree with @Benkei's comments that if you do believe her behavior is substandard, then you have to explain why you don't think men behaving worse is also substandard.
That is, if you have a double standard, you need to explain why.
As you've explained, you don't have a double standard. You condemn them all. That's fine, but now you have to explain why your standard, equally as you may apply it to all, is a standard worth having. I think it's not. Who cares if a grown woman dances?
And my response is, if Benkei believes her behavior is normal, then why is there a need to bring in Trump, the gambler, the alcoholic, and the drug addict? Why not just say, her behavior is common and indicative of a mature statesman as shown on the video?
Oh wait, because you just can't win an argument like that. No, it's not enough to show the video of her dancing and everyone should come to agreement this is a normal behavior of a leader having fun.
If her behavior is normal, then let the video speak for itself. Why are you defending something that's normally done by statesmen and leaders and using other despicable leaders to make your point? I wouldn't.
No, that's exactly what I am saying. That it is screamingly obvious to you that she acted inappropriately doesn't have any persuasive power over my opinion that she acted inappropriately. Why was what she did wrong? I really don't get what you saw that I missed.
In any event, we're both in agreement that whether Trump is worse has no bearing on whether her behavior is bad, so the only objection I can decipher that you have is that object that some irrelevant comparison question was asked.
And I don't think really it was inserted for the reason you think it was. The OP wasn't suggesting iher behavior was OK because Trump has behaved worse. The OP was asking if we, as a society, give a pass for poor male behavior but then condemn perfectly normal female behavior.
Is this a joke?
Yes, a responsibility in public. Not in private parties in the off chance that a video leaks. Maybe she should stop having sex too, lest a video get leaked of it. Or perhaps keep it strictly missionary.
Quoting L'éléphant
I’m the one that posted the video of Trump. Because I think it’s funny— it was a joke, not an argument. Grow up.
Hahaha!
Yes. As I said previously. If you cannot avoid "private" affairs, you are not ready for public responsibility.
We are not speaking about a random woman. She is the public representative of Finland.
That's what politicians are. Appearance...
I canÂ’t prove that youÂ’re joking, but IÂ’ll assume you are. No one can really believe such idiocy.
I am not joking. Why am I call a mad man when I only pretend to establish purity?
I love the word "racy". Jugdmental much? What are you? A fossil? Obviously I raised "worse" behaviour from men that was never used against them. Eg. a double standard.
I'm saddened about the fact that pretty smart people have the moral intuitions of medieval peasantry.
A title for a research paper: How movies shape mindsets.
:rofl:
Here is we disagree and it is fine. We have totally different concepts of life. What I wanted to say in your thread is the fact that we should expect more righteousness from a public representative. If she loves to be a young lady (despite she is already 36 years old) is ok but please do not be a politician then.
Quoting Benkei
I personally think is not funny at all. There are a lot of young people who die because of overdose every year...
[quote=Ms. Marple]Most interesting.[/quote]
Something ... something ... going on here.
There's millions of people who do drugs and never die. There's millions of people who don't drown when swimming. There's billions of people who don't crash their car. All this reflects is a bias for negative deviation of the norm.
Quoting javi2541997
I know how it is to use and not use drugs because I used some drugs at some point in life. As a result I have experiential knowledge in understanding drug use and to a lesser extent addiction. I know for instance that Oxycontin is far more addictive than most commonly available drugs and that's after a single use dosis against pain. If you don't understand drug use and addiction, you can't regulate it in a manner that makes sense.
What we should expect from our representatives is to manage political problems, manage a country, solve socio-economic issues and possibly have a vision about where we should go to. Nothing about dancing influences this and it certainly says nothing about their "righteousness". That's all about you projecting a boat load of assumptions on a dance.
You're only looking at mortality stats; what about morbidity? Dying of an overdose is just the tip of the iceberg, oui monsieur?
So people that dont drink, cant dance (like 'that') and dont do drugs have no idea about life and are by definition unfit to rule. Thanks for clearing that up.
Fully agreed. But not any person can manage such complex responsibility. How can we expect from the PM to solve inflation or unemployment if she is not responsible with herself? This is what I wanted to mean with my points.
Probably I am wrong but I cannot imagine a politician taking care of big problems if she/he is involved in private parties. It is not related to drugs or dance it is about rectitude and maturity.
Quoting Benkei
You can take part in this issue through many ways. I guess it is not necessary to go to a party in Ibiza to understand that drug abuse is painful to your health...
Is that a rethorical question? If not, alcohol is also considered a drug yes.
And will cloud one's judgement, during and after the abuse, which in the case of a head of state might have far-reaching consequences considering it could affect the political/economical fate of an entire state.
I actually wonder how you relate that to a head of state.
I have a very different opinion as by definition the role of the head of state, or anyone else in such a position, is very different from that of a(ny) social worker.
People arguing for a type of politician are arguing for elitism and a disconnect between politics and citizens. The worst kind of democracy. These are the typical politicians that are really good at telling regular people what they're doing wrong, while stacking the deck against those very people.
I am from the town of Rotterdam (Netherlands) myself so I can somewhat relate to the things you say however I am of the opinion that most of the ruling class, which are ex-students in pretty much all cases, dont have a general clean slate when it comes to drug and alcohol abuse. On the contrary, the students are generally known for their excessive drinking and party habits. Relate those particular facts to the ruling class through the decades gone and one can easily conclude that their experience(s) with various substances and all sorts of parties have little to do with their socio-political 'prowess' (perhaps except for the fact that they dont seem to have any social connection whatsoever with the people they rule).
Street smarts trumps book smarts, eh? :up:
Russian roulette was never my thing.
How about this one from Norwegian politicians:
This compilation made in America:
Or this effort from UK's prime minister Teresa May?
I think Sanna wins the dance off.
I don't care if a politician enjoys themselves human style at a party, I care about what they do politically.
I would care if they are shooting up heroin in the corner and getting involved in devient behaviour but not having a wee drink, splif and dance. I prefer my politicians to act human and not some fake archetype of virtuosity.
Even so there's this old adage: A (wo)man is known by the company (s)he keeps.
Quoting Grammarist
According to your thoughts, how is to "act human"?
To be true to your own nature, to be who you are, to be honest.
One of the main problems with this is that people frequently have no idea who they are or what they want. The really tough part is working that out. :smile:
Quoting Benkei
Agree with most of the points you made. Don't forget social work is generally a degree level discipline. When I recruit social workers for my organisation, they frequently have 4 years of university behind them. Sometimes several degrees. But yes, experience and aptitude is more important. When I hire someone with a lived experience of substance misuse, they still need a degree. Lots of terrible mistakes made by people who don't have some foundational education - professional boundaries, case formulation and planning, unconditional positive regard.
Quoting javi2541997
I fully understand your view and I expect many people share it. I personally think that some of the best leaders are flawed people with problems. I don't expect leaders to be perfect or to role play sober righteousness. I like leaders to be human and complex. If that means a penchant for dancing and booze on occasions, great!
.
:up:
Completely. You are approaching to my point then
Quoting Tom Storm
This is why I feel I was born in the wrong era. I see I am wrong but I literally expect from them righteousness, purity, honour, etc... more or less as samurai leaders were back then in Japan for example. The Bushido principle.
Suppose that stuff in the OP is not what is considered Finnish...
But admittedly, there is probably no PM in the world that dances better?
:up: :100:
No, not even near it. Displaying honesty in who you are involves deciding to dance at a private party if you want to as a human right when you have judged that to do so does not reflect on your ability to be a good leader of a country as dancing is an expression of personal joy. In this past it has only been suffocating religious dogma that has tried to restrict the joy of dancing. Do you wish to impose upon politicians that which is imposed by such horrors as Sharia law, which also restricts woman in such ridiculous ways based on theistic nonsense.
Hmm... I guess I never quoted Sharia law or other "horrors" in this discussion. I only hope to have more decent and mature politicians. Simple.
Then finding such out should be the main priority of such people and until they do have a strong idea of who they are and what they want they must hope that those in power have their best interests at heart and those who are more self-assured must insist and enforce adequate checks and balances to make sure those in power behave appropriately and I don't think that needs to include making sure they don't dance (subjectively) provocatively at a party. If you are not self assured that you know who you are and you know what you want then you should not be leading a country. That is partly why I advocate that these two questions should be internally asked by all of us regularly.
1. Who are you?
2. What do you want?
I even include them in my thread Profundity
Never forget how to dance Javi, that path leads towards the anti-life people.
Dancing freely (even if you are not great at it) should be a joyous act, a celebration of being alive.
Let the politicians dance, just insist they use their power for the good of those they represent.
Be suspicious of any system which discourages dancing!
Bushido has been misused as well, consider the statement below:
In the lead-up to World War II, and throughout the war, the Japanese government pushed an ideology called "imperial bushido" on the citizens of Japan. It emphasized Japanese military spirit, honor, self-sacrifice, and unwavering, unquestioning loyalty to the nation and to the emperor.
I hate dance and everything related to parties and music.
Quoting universeness
Completely beautiful. This is how a nation should move and progress. That text explains perfectly what I expect from a regular politician or public representative.
Are you typing that you would have fought for the Japanese in WWII? Or merely that you advocate for a society which promotes Quoting universeness ?
Completely, yes. If the nation of Bushido ever required me to do so.
Quoting universeness
This too.
Then I hope you never gain any position of authority Javi.
I am glad Senna is a leader and you are not, but I hope one day you dance, dance, dance freely and all night, even if its just around your own coffee table cause your pissed!
Don't worry. I am confident with myself that modern society doesn't understand me.
I will never get to an authority position. I don't like politics
:sweat: :fear: :up: :eyes:
There is nothing in the video that is out of line with the behavior of people at an alcohol fueled party. She said she had been drinking. It that the end of it because it was alcohol, even though the outcome can be destabilizing? Or is it that drinking should be prohibited for those in public office? Or is it that drinking is okay as long as dancing the minuet?
As I said, you mistake appearance for statecraft.
I think the issue here is a bit over-intellectualized. That Marin danced with her friends means nothing to me, either in terms of it proving she is somehow unprofessional or in terms of proving she has that common touch so elusive in our representatives. I would suspect that there are highnesses and majesties in the House of Windsor who let loose and dance and sing, all the while being elitist icons of a bygone era. It's sort of like seeing the Queen eat and marveling at the fact that she eats too, having convinced ourselves that these people aren't people. So, it means nothing to me she dances, sleeps, eats bonbons, or watches TikTok while she has her morning coffee.
I also don't think the idea of trying to find the Regular Joe as our politician is anything new. It's a common schtick among politicians to tell us they are from the school of hard knocks as opposed to some elitist school. How that plays depends upon who they represent.
Trump's schtick is very much to be this plain spoken self-made person who can say things like they are without fear of reprisal. That the reality behind it isn't true nothwithstanding, that's his schtick, so none of this is new. We're just talking about PR and advertising and what does and doesn't get votes. Apparently Marin is worried that the latest event will hurt her, so she took a drug test so that we would know she just likes to dance but not to fully sedate herself.
As to whether I'd rather hire a prior drug user to deal with drug policy as opposed to someone who is more data driven, I'd go with the guy who actually has a handle on policy and data. That someone has struggled with drugs in the past might give them insight into how to deal with certain issues, but it might also be evidence of an underlying personality issue that has resulted in a resort to self-medication. I'm not excluding those who have had their personal struggles, but basing hiring decisions upon the fact that I think the person "knows what it's like" might not be the best way to go about staffing my office. Again, I tend to be data driven, so if you could actually show me that choosing former drug users to assist in determining drug treatment center protocol (for example) results in better outcomes than in hiring those with advanced degrees in drug addiction and treatment, I'd reconsider, but my initial thought would be to defer to those who have actually studied the problem and not just those how have been consumed by the problem.
I agree in theory, but many people are not even in a position to ask such questions. They are often unaware that they don't know who they are or what they want. They've been fooled into thinking they are what their parents/friends/school/therapist/culture/occupation tells them they are and they need to experience a profound shock, circuit breaker or ontological threat to leave this behind. I don't think it's to most people's tastes or in their interests to conduct such soul searching.
Of course. Maybe off topic, but if you are dealing with providing services to people with problematic substance use - people who need support - policy matters little. It's all about how to connect and engage people in new ways of living without using. That can benefit from working with people who have 'been there' too. I've seen it work powerfully in practice, but it is not the only way. If it's policy and research you want, that's all about the nerds - who can take your data and skew it nicely to demonstrate that your hypothesis is correct, regardless of what the case may really be. :razz:
I know people who imo match your description and I try my best to nudge now and again to see if they are interested in talking about it. But yeah, its a serious judgement call as its possible you can do more harm than good in many situations that you do not have full information about.
You choose. After all this seems to be politics about politics. Should a minister of state, being an important example (role model) to a lot of (very) (young) people, take care not to present himself/herself (in public, via smartphone/internet) under the influence of an intoxicating substance which is known for its addictive (and destructive) properties? Or is it that such behavior shouldnt be made into an issue because the substance is legalized and (especially not) because the prime minister seems to be able to absorb certain quantities of the substance without any negative consequence (which could be considered an example in and of itself)?
I know little about drug treatments, so I guess I'd do whatever it is that I do when I'm asked to do something I don't know how to do, which is fairly often, and I'd hire the guy who looked best on paper so that when he fucked everything up, I could say, "Wow, but he looked so good on paper," and then no one would think it was my fault for hiring a fuck up, but that it was just the paper was deceiving.
As a general matter, I have given opportunities to those with checkered pasts because it makes me feel non-judgmental, which I'm not, but I like to feel that way sometimes, but that hasn't always worked out as planned. They'll be super appreciative for the chance, but then they start to not show up on Mondays and they always have a sick dog or broken furnace to tend to and then I'll find out they've been hooking up with everyone in the records department.
Most jobs require conscientiousness and a little enthusiasm, with the rest not being as important. I always hire the guy that seems like they're interested in the job, which, in this market, seems like there's not a whole lot of people like that. At least when I was younger I pretended like I wanted the job. It seemed better when people pretended for some reason.
It seems to be a political attempt to embarrass or discredit her.
Quoting Seeker
She was not presenting herself in public. It was a private party. The video was made public without her permission.
Why would "(very) (young) people" make of this something more than someone dancing, singing, and having a good time? Many of them have parents, who are their primary examples and role models, who drink and sing and dance.
Quoting Seeker
No, it shouldn't be an issue because she was not doing anything wrong. Are you accusing her of not drinking responsibly? Or do you think someone in her position should not drink at all?
The assumption by many seems to be 'politics is sober and serious, please don't have a life too.'
Considering the profile(s) of her (media-exposure-hungry) companions at the time of the party it is without a doubt going public once such a companion starts filming or receives a copy of the footage.
Quoting Fooloso4
Good times as such tend to end binge-party-style where it concerns the very young as young people are less limited by a sense of responsibility, for themselves and/or their peers, and will explore and exceed their limits easily, especially if provided 'exemplary behavior' of someone as succesful as the PM. If you cant see that, or perhaps do not want to see such, for whatever reason, there isnt anything more I can do or say to convince you otherwise.
You seem to be making this about me, what I think or feel, but it is about consequence of action, my personal opinion is of no value, I am merely stating facts rather than going on a crusade.
But this was not about the very young.
Quoting Seeker
Except this was not provided as exemplary behavior. It was an unauthorized video of people dancing at private party. Do you really think very young people will start drinking and dancing because the PM does?
Quoting Seeker
I am not making it about you, I am making it about what you have said.
Quoting Seeker
And yet you continue to make them public.
quote="Seeker;732450"]I am merely stating facts rather than going on a crusade.[/quote]
You are not stating facts, you are imagining what the consequences of seeing Marin singing and dancing will be on very young people. It is good to know that you are not going on a crusade, but, unfortunately, others are
I wonder who else is covered under this assumption, doctors, lawyers, Sunday school teachers?
Quoting Fooloso4
No, because those professionals tend to work in private institutions. They are paid by ownership fees or they are employed workers.
But a politician is a public representative of a state.. She is not an average lawyer or teacher she is de the damn Prime Minister of a country...
Right, a representative of the of the state. How is she doing in that regard?
:100:
We can be agree here in the fact that she is actually a good politician. But I personally think you are mixing some points. Being an "efficient" politician doesn't allow you to be immature or having private parties.
As I said previously: a public representative should not mixed their responsibility with private whims. I still think we have to expect from them more rectitude. If she doesn't want to be so "booooring" don't be a politician then
Yes, seppuku is the only way in the face of her disgrace.
Quoting Fooloso4
Nobody understands such honourable act. We live in another era. She doesn't fit in the way of Bushido. But it is ok and I respect it. Anyone is not able to maintain such level of loyalty and integrity.
Four pages already of our PM. :razz:
Quoting Benkei
Well, Sanna basicallty jumped to this immediately. I think only some opposition politician tweeted that she should take one. And that's it. The media wasn't asking for it. And she took a pee test, which umm...shows if you have had drugs during the couple of days.
Well, as nearly unavoidable (as a Finn) I've seen the videos...and the discussion here. The things that made this fuzz about drugs was because:
a) someone in video referred themselves who party as "jauhojengi", flour-gang which is urban slang for people who use cocaine etc instead of alcohol
b) in a video there seems an absence of alcohol bottles and in one shot in the kitchen shows a white stripe on the table (which of course could be everything).
c) the videos were shot before they actually went out in two clubs and partied until five.
d) this isn't the ONLY time these partying videos have gotten out. I think last year was already was video of Sanna partying with artists (many the same group).
I think the general consensus is that the whole debacle just questions her judgement about the friends she has. And of course, if it would be a male PM, however good looking, he would be out. I think just a photo of a male intimately dancing with a female singer when his wife and daughter are at home would be enough. Nobody would believe the "we're just friends" answer.
(Some of Sanna's friends using the prime ministers residence information room to get cool photos. She first tried to say the pictures were taken at the toilet. Notice the same "Finland" sign and Sanna himself has acknowledged that they are genuine, which she regrets.)
Well, she wanted to "shake the institution of the prime minister". That she definately has done. :snicker:
But now we are here in the phase where she apologizes with nearly breaking up in tears ...and telling that Ukrainians have it worse. Which is true. And it's the Ukrainian day of independence, I think.
As a school teacher of 30+ years and before that, as a time served journeyman painter & decorator.
I can confirm that my employers, parents of pupils, and local authority representitives, took a much dimmer view of a drunk, singing and dancing secondary school teacher than the people in general took when they saw a drunk, singing and dancing painter and decorator.
Wow she is recidivist... what a totally lost of hope towards her.
Quoting ssu
Immature people having fun with Immature girl. Superb. If her "friends" get to easily to prime ministers residence... how can we know if a spy or enemy doesn't have the same chances?
Quoting ssu
Demagogy.
About time you showed up :wink: . Her image has been severely undermined and so, I think she's effectively finished. And she probably knows that. Hence the tears. It's not a moral issue, and nothing she did is inconsistent with being a top class PM. It's just the image. The "Prime Minister" is that thing in our head we consider Prime-Ministerish and for most people that has certain boundaries. We don't want the human getting in the way. We'd rather brush that under the carpet. Her sin was letting her human out there in full HD vid, so we can't. Ergo, she's toast imo, though she'll probably limp on for a while.
Maybe. But given what has been going on elsewhere, it may be that standards and expectations are changing. Trump has certainly done his part to lower the bar.
As if being the PM of Finland is such a pinnacle of success that losing that position will mean ruin. She's now an international celebrity, who will no doubt figure out how to cash in on all this.
We ask what would happen if she were a middle aged man or whatever. Maybe we could muster up the same sanctimonious outrage, but there'd still be a collective yawn. No one wants to see a middle age man grind into another middle aged man. They want to see her doing all that she's been doing. That interest isn't going to end just because she might choose another track.
It ain't. I meant as PM.
Quoting Hanover
My interest began and ended pretty quickly. You seem a bit more entranced. But her future life as your favourite celebrity is not what I was talking about.
I think you are correct.
Anyway, elections are held in 2nd of April next year and likely this administration will limp forward until there. I don't think that she will resign before (I may be wrong, of course). The social democrats got a breath of fresh air with the now 36-year old Sanna (as the average age of the party members is over 70), Yet high inflation, the likely economic downturn and the oncoming energy crisis will likely mean that the conservatives/True Finns may possibly win. (Actually the conservatives lost only because a popular member of parliament created a offshoot party once he didn't get a top ministerial post when the party was in power. Basically something similar to when Ross Perot undermined Bush the elder and Clinton got into power.)
But I have to say that she had been a smart politician, before choosing the wrong "in"-crowd of assholes among whom to party with. She was firm on issues like NATO membership and COVID-restrictions once the strong majority of the people felt the same way. She changed her views quick enough to take on the role of being in command. Above all, all those crappy "lose-or-lose more" issues that any administration has to face and cannot win, suddenly an another minister would to take the hotseat and she wouldn't be anywhere around to take responsibility. That tactic actually worked well: if the shit stuff is commented by others and you comment on the "good" stuff, things that people agree with, people will have a positive image of you. Until you give it all away some party celebs that live off from instragram fame.
The only issue I really have, and yes, I am indeed old fashioned because of this, is that at least I haven't noticed the PM partying with his husband. Her husband is n ever mentioned in the parties. The males in the partying buddies are just other "friends" of Sanna. But hey, she celebrated their anniversary with her husband so I guess it's OK. An open style marriage I guess. Or then it's a show marriage because some more old fashioned/conservative people here might think a PM should be married and not have out of wedlock children. If your a single mom, then proudly be a single mom.
I just think that if it was an 36-year old male prime minister partying with women celebs and nowhere would be his wife that he has been married two years ago and with whom you have 4 year old daughter with, people wouldn't be so accepting. Usually marriages in which the spouses don't party together won't last.
But anyway, so why did she fuck up so big?
I think that for this once a supermarket cashier (which fits perfectly the social democratic image of rising from an ordinary background), the superstardom she got as this young sexy prime minister simply went to her head. Usually a Finnish prime minister, even if female, doesn't get the limelight as Marin has had now. And things like joining NATO naturally put our country into media focus. Above all, last year when the first partying videos emerged from the prime minister's official residence, her polls did actually go up. Because then it really was just about singing and dancing. And it was a meeting with artists. And naturally pop artists sing and dance. So if the polls went then up, why not simply continue to party!
Trump presented himself as a piece of garbage from the beginning. It's a different dynamic. His whole shtick was "I'm an ignorant fool just like you, Joe Public. Vote for me and validate your own stupidity." So, the fact that Trump is what he pretends to be allows the public to pretend that he is what he's not (worthy of being President). Whereas the fact that Marin is not what she pretended to be doesn't allow the public to pretend that she is what she is (worthy of being PM). It's the conflict between the public and private persona that short-circuits our ability to project our image successfully, not the absolute nature of the image, the acceptability of which is culturally sensitive.
As if you're not in love too.
It does look like she got complacent and careless with image control. She's paying the price.
How many times you watched that vid, sir. :brow:
Some see him that way, others see him as worthy of being president. Of those who regard him as worthy some overlook his flaws. It was common for Christian Evangelists, many of whom regarded him as a savior, to say things like "he is human" and "we are all sinners". Nothing he did mattered as long as he overturned Roe and championed "Christian rights".
Gary Hart's 1984 run for US President came to an abrupt end when it was revealed he was having an extra-marital affair. Standards certainly have changed.
I don't know what the image is that Marin cultivated or the extent to which her image has changed in the eyes of the Finnish people or how much they even care about about what she does in her private life.
My comment was intended to be less about her and more about what people expect of their political leaders. In the past it was easier to keep things out of the public eye. I don't think the behavior of political leaders has changed all that much, it is just that it is far more difficult to maintain the illusion of being a paragon of virtue.
My point was more that a leader's chances of success relate to how they accommodate our projections of that which we are not, but aspire to, either positively or negatively. We recognize implicitly our own lack of power and its source at least partly in our human distance from a consistent ideal—call it our narrative emptiness. Insofar as a politician can fill that vacuum for us, we're satisfied. They do "us" for us. But when they really turn out to be like us, we relate to them less not more because the form of the relation is aspirational. When they fall apart as narrative, so does their usefulness for us. It doesn't matter what the narrative is, that's socially defined; its consistency or otherwise is the psychological issue I'm pointing to.
Maybe for some I guess.
I work around enough people involved in politics that I have no greater expectations of them than anyone else, and they have no greater likelihood of being a role model than anyone else. In fact, while we're psychoanallyzing, much could be said about the curious personality drawn into politics.
At any rate, if you're looking to your politicians for moral direction, maybe it's time to rethink your religion.
First I need to point out to everyone how confusing it is to be in Finland until you realise Finn's will use he / she pronouns interchangeably in reference to the same person in the same sentence.
So many stories I'm like: this couple has a really complicated relationship.
Quoting ssu
Basically in complete agreement with your whole analysis.
The issue is really about the video not being "just" dancing. If she was just busting moves, even awkward one's, it would be an endearing video showing she's "just like us".
But the video, how things look and all the details you mention, is not just dancing.
Of course, legal complaints are spurious, but a pretext to just keep talking about the video, make sure everyone sees it a bunch.
As some random reddit poster pointed out, that I unfortunately forget where, there's an older crowd in Finland that frowns upon this sort of dancing and partying. However, there's also a middle-age and younger crowd that doesn't do this kind of partying as either they think it's stupid or they would like to, but don't have that kind of money and friends, and have fomo about it.
Not everyone does this sort of crazy, out of your mind clubbing.
Of course, count me in.
My woman friends claim it wouldn't even be an issue if it was a male politician. There's a bunch of examples of male politicians getting blackout drunk on official visits and so on, but my counter-point is they weren't Prime Minister, but things like cultural minister (representing Finnish drinking culture).
However, a male getting drunk and frisky at a party I don't think would be automatically interpreted as cheating. Easily have a "boys will be boys" narrative around it, but I do agree the leaving your wife alone with the child to go party would be viewed as classic douche archetype ... but that's not necessarily so damaging politically.
In Kekkonen's and Koivisto's time yes, but in the 1990's the tabloid press started to be "normal" even in Finland by European standards. For the last thirty years they would go for the jugular when these kind of pictures / videos come out. And now, in our time, the "old media" just has to respond what already has happened as is already discussed in the social media.
Without the social media I think that there would be just these rumours going on that Sanna likes to party without anything been written about it in the media.
Quoting boethius
Many Finnish men have a "personal problem" with alcohol.
The best example of this was Ahti Karjalainen, who made a stellar career starting from being the secretary of President Kekkonen and the Soviets (KGB) wanted him to follow Kekkonen. But alcohol got him. Those times once when on a state official visit in Finland the motorcade suddenly stopped and the reporters jumped out to find out what's happening, nobody took a picture of the intoxicated Finnish foreign minister throwing up next to the car carrying him. So he was put away into the Central bank of Finland. And as an alcoholic, even got fired from there.
Quoting boethius
I'm not sure just how well that "boys will be boys" thing will go in the post me-too environment. You have to be a Donald Trump: have firm backing from your supporters that think everything you do is great as you irritate the elites and everything bad thrown at you is just fake news.
Sanna's supporters aren't so many as she isn't an anti-establishment populist.
Oh yes, I totally agree it would be an issue for a male, especially prime minister, but some woman see it differently. But how bad an issue, and also what would be a comparable situation is difficult to judge.
Quoting ssu
The power of boys will be boys is fading, but I would not say it is close to impotent.
But I think we are largely in agreement on the issue.
Apparently the PM has now been chastised and pledged an end to partying.
Well I can say that if asked to name another Finnish PM, or actually Finnish legislator, or actually Finnish woman, or actually Finnish person other than @ssu, I'd draw a blank. So she has done whatever is necessary to find her way to my computer screen. She needs to take advantage of this 15 minutes of fame.
I wasn't aware your attention span was that long. You're improving. :kiss:
Absurd, isn't it? Perhaps now she will get the paparazzi following she deserves for having put Finland on the map again. Fame and notoriety are the same when it comes to getting publicity, as long as they spell her name correctly. Just look at Zelenskiy for an example for how much public awareness can be worth for a country. Otoh, if she were French would anyone bat an eye?
Are you insinuating she is still young to act as a drunk teenager? Despite the important fact that she is the PM I don't see her as "little girl"
What does the average 36 year old (Finnish) woman do after sunset?
That is all relative in the light of her position as someone else has allready mentioned. She tread dangerously considering who and what she is and which she should have taken into account before doing so. If she didnt she must have failed to overview the job description. Watching it all from afar makes for a shallow observation, up close it all must have seemed rather amateurish.
Stay at home... I guess.
We'll need to dig up stats on what 36 yr old (Finnish) women do.
You have a point but one has to consider the undeniable fact that Sanna Marin is a human and will want to do what humans want to do at that age.
I think @ssu can help us in this topic. Anyway, this is what I found in a quick search in Google: WHAT DO PEOPLE IN FINLAND DO IN THEIR FREE TIME?
These are the statistics of what adult Finnish people do in free time:
You left out the next entry:
Dirty dancing with the Prime Minister 23%
Quoting Benkei
I see. Danke for the clarification.
[quote=Benjamin Disraeli?]Lies, damn lies, and statistics.[/quote]
Pardon the oversight monsieur.
They covered it up :lol: probably the percentage is even higher :eyes:
:lol:
Politics _should_ be sober and serious. Similar applies to many other professions.
It's frightening the way people are willing to lower their standards and to consider various professions as "just another job".
Dance is therapeutic (as per Swiss psychologist Carl Jung). So, people, do you or do you not want a PM who's healthy in mind and body?
Quoting javi2541997
Agreed.
The actual difficulty has to do with making sense of democracy and the standards of morality for democratically elected officials.
A person in a position of power isn't an ordinary person anymore, because they have that power.
But at the same time, since they have been elected from and by the people with whom they are at least nominally equal, they are still ordinary in one sense.
I still think people in positions of power should be beyond the need for frivolous fun. It's not even about "being responsible"; it's about being so capable, so smart, so superior to the masses that one doesn't need the cheap emotional outlets that the masses do.
Why did she do that?
If partying and drinking are so great and make her so capable of ruling her people, then why apologize for partying and drinking??
If she were to stand by her partying, the whole thing wouldn't be suspect at all. But if she's making it clear that even she herself doesn't believe in what she's doing, then why should we believe in her, how can we believe in her??
Why didn't she say something like, "Yes, I'm a Prime Minister. Yes, I party. Yay!" ? And perhaps throw a "Deal with it!" in the mix.
It's the absence of her approving of her partying that is conspicuous and a reason for doubting her.
If she wants to be a politician of a new era, then she should behave like one consistently and play by the new rules, not the old ones.
Completely agreed :up:
This gave rise to a proverb: "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion"
I still maintain my original thoughts about this issue. I think we the citizens should expect more from a PM, even when we are living a difficult time in this period of war crisis and gas prices. You cannot have most of the people wondering what would happen in winter while she is partying as a teenager.
When I saw her dancing like that I thought she was not responsible enough to be a public representative. But this opinion leads me to be called sexist. Because the people who defend her maintain the idea that she is young and she is free to have fun because we are living in a “modern era”
As an old saying goes, everything is fine "up to a point". Perhaps it's that there are many videos.
Actually, she didn't apologize, but made a tearful statement (with translation in English.)
Quoting baker
Because she had done that already. Far before the last round of partying, when the first criticisms of her partying emerged. Then she had that defiant response.
Then she had sent to her critics sent an instagram (along with friend MP in the background dubbed "party-Ilmari") below:
It basically says "boomers, just chill out". It's part of lyrics from a Finnish pop song and refers to the older generation we know so well.
Quoting baker
I think she is just has learnt that the old rules apply and are useful.
You make for good arguments but I guess in the end it is all about the realisation of being in politics, about seeing the error of her ways in conventional ways, not feeling morally compromised neccesarily but seeing her credibility diminished in the face of the public eye.
I gather most of us confuse the higher moral expectations of Scandinavians with our own looser standards? If Sanna Marin is ousted as PM would you think that she will come back and be elected by popular vote as President a year from now?
Basically the opposition understands that attacking Marin now can end up damaging them and they can just wait for the oncoming recession, the high inflation and the energy crisis simply to take it's toll on the leftist/centrist administration. This "partygate" is still this kind of non-important issue when there are far bigger political problems around.
So I think she has avoided already this scandal. American politics concentrates far more in these kind of issues especially during elections. Finnish political discourse is still "boring" and concentrates on politicy issues.
Actually, she has said that she's not going to run for the Presidency. Which of course can change. (Like just before Putin's 24th Feb invasion she didn't see NATO membership happening)
After being put into the PM position (when the previous Social Democrat PM had to resign after his scandal) like Liz Truss and then surviving COVID pandemic and joining NATO and now being the most famous Finnish politician, I think it's likely that she might become the Finnish President someday.
(If the wild sex party tapes don't surface, that is! :wink: )
We're living in an era of secular tyranny.
There always been tyranny from the rulers or statemen. Nevertheless, I still maintain my opinion that a public representative should behave according to righteousness. I guess this issue is not based on her parties but the fact she is the PM. If she would be a random person nobody would care at all.
But where do you arrive at the rule that not partying is righteous?
There's this ongoing view in this thread that says something like this "Come on, we all know that her behavior was unbecoming and ridiculous, but how much leeway are we going to give her just because she's a young woman"? The problem is I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that what she did was unbecoming. Whatever part of your moral conscience that is being shocked, just isn't happening to me. All I see is a woman dancing and singing with her friends. How is what she did bad in any way?
We are living in a very complex scenario. Ukraine is at war, the prices are raising, unemployment increasing, and the world is getting divided as in the cold war. I guess (yes, I know I sound boring) what we should expect from our politicians is at least some righteousness. A Prime Minister is not a regular or ordinary citizen. She literally represents Finland and promotes some laws which are voted in the Parliament. Thus, she has a lot of power. Then, she has a lot of responsibility on their shoulders.
It is not fair or correct to party as a teenager instead of working hard 24/7. If you think this is "extreme" you are not able to be a politician with power because it seems not everybody is capable to be such an important person.
Imagine this scenario with Joe Biden or Scholz in Germany. It would be disgusting as hell... Everybody suffering from the gas and oil prices crisis and those politicians having fun... It is not correct to me.
Quoting javi2541997
Yeah, some feel that way. Yet I think a more pressing issue is that this administration is spending like crazy, trying to stimulate things when there is rampant inflation going on. Not a good policy I say. The issue is that when you don't have the best team possible to lead.
The ugly fact is that Sanna, as other Finnish female party leaders were put to the position because of their looks: they were somewhat young good looking women. It seems that there was a collective decision of "Let's have young good looking women!". Not porn stars like Cicciolina, which basically was an Italian protest vote. Yet that's the only reason why Finnish politicians suddenly are so popular. Just look at the party leaders before them:
Sanna Marin, current Social Democrat Party leader and prime minister:
Social Democrat party leader and former prime minister before Sanna Marin:
Green Party leader, current minister:
Green Party leader before her:
Centrist Party leader, finance minister (at start of Marin administration, replaced by another woman):
Centrist Party leader before, prior prime minister:
Leftist Alliance party leader, current minister:
Leftist Alliance party leader before the current leader:
Can anybody notice a trend here from the pictures? No?
Well, yes here is another big problem. Apart from being immature it turns out that she is not even a good representative. Everything is connected with this debate. If she had any sense of basic responsibility she would be a better PM.
But the footage shows what she really is: incompatible for her charge.
"Dancing" and "partying" while the rampant inflation goes on :yikes:
What triggers me the most is the fact that these politicians do not resign. They still remain in the power looking like if nothing happened at all.
Quoting ssu
You are right! There is clearly a trend in selecting beautiful women.
In terms of beauty - I would think that goes against candidates too. A lot of people resent attractive women for obvious reasons, and may even assume they are unable to do a good job because they are good looking. My first wife was a former model and super intelligent but she copped that prejudice all the time. I suspect that is why people resent Marin's dancing - it activates this particular prejudice. Often people assume attractive women can't be leaders and are always seeking out evidence of this. Marin's dancing and having 'fun' (even if to me it looks humdrum) is 'good evidence' to the jealous naysayers, the wowsers and the bitter. Images of an attractive women having fun is like catnip for misogynists and jealous women.
And even if young beautiful women can be capable, they are just a few. Marin had been less than a year in a ministerial position (minister of transport) before being selected to be a prime minister and prior 4 years as a member of Parliament. Great, some might say. The video scandal might say something, but she has shown the political inexperience in other ways too. I would grade her as a mediocre+ politician, not a stellar one.
Quoting Tom Storm
Actually those who pick young women aren't actually who one first think would be picking them. It's usually older women and older people who after being disappointed of their generations politicians want to pick a candidate from the younger generation. The average age of the members in Sanna Marin's party is over 70.
Quoting Tom Storm
Having been a model creates that stigma,unfortunately. Even (or maybe especially) for males too.
This reminds me of the first time a beautiful young woman MP was chosen to a ministerial position in the 1990's by the Centrist Party. As she had been a former Miss Finland beauty pageant, the press sneered just how well "she was coached" to respond to politics and ridiculed her. And of course the tabloid press had her firmly locked in the gossip pages. (And of course there were the gossips, she dated back then the current President of Finland, who was from another party). Yet in my view she looked just as competent as Sanna Marin. Actually it's said that the former Miss Finland wanted first to join the social democrats, but back then they turned her down. She was for 12 years a member of Parliament and now has gone away from the media limelight.
Completely agreed :100:
Current Irish PM:
Previous PM:
Minister of Agriculture:
*Sigh*
Irish potatoes, yummy :yum:
Previous PM:
Minister of public order and prisons :death: :yikes:
Yet I have to say, the best female politicians are actually those who nobody thinks of being "female politicians", first and foremost, or women... or mothers. When it's their politics, good or bad, that is remembered, then that is true equility.
Pedro Sánchez is the current secretary of socialist party and yes, as you said he got into the power due to replacements. It amazes me his ability to survive each year inside Spanish politics because it seems nobody likes him but he stills remain in power.
He even wrote a book about this skill which is literally named as manual of resistance
There are other sectors of society which call him Mr. Handsome or Prince Pedro
Here we see him talking with (supposedly) his successor in the leftists: Yolanda DĂaz.