Twin Earth conflates meaning and reference.

hypericin August 27, 2022 at 21:31 7075 views 39 comments
I won't summarize the thought experiment myself, since I think most people here have heard of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_Earth_thought_experiment

This experiment conflates meaning and reference. Consider the sentence:

S: "The water is cold".

Would you say you know what S means? If you do not, you certainly wouldn't understand the sentence you are reading right now, as you cannot read English.

And yet, despite our clear understanding of S, we have no idea what the referent is. What water is cold? The relevant context is unknown. S has no clear referent and yet is perfectly understandable. This can only be the case if meaning and referent are different: only then can we make sense of understanding the one without knowing the other.

Twin Earth fails because it does not distinguish meaning and referent.

The meaning of "Water" is the same on both planets: that wet clear stuff we have to drink every day. The meaning certainly cannot include chemical composition, otherwise no one knew what "water" meant before its composition was discovered. Yet people were happily and usefully saying "water" long before this discovery.

Only the referents, water and twin water, are different, in their chemical composition. "Water" means the same thing on earth and twin earth.

Comments (39)

Banno August 28, 2022 at 00:36 #733765
Quoting hypericin
Twin Earth fails because it does not distinguish meaning and referent.


Trouble is, the thought experiment does explicitly distinguish meaning and reference.

On Earth, "water" denotes[math] H_2O[/math].
On twin Earth, "water" denotes[math] XYZ[/math].

In both worlds, the supposition is that the word "water" is used in the exact same way.

Same meaning in each case, but different referent. Hence, the argument goes, the meaning of "water" is not its chemical composition.

Here's the original paper.

SO I suppose the obvious question is, since you think the argument fails, what is it you think it fails to do?
jgill August 28, 2022 at 03:29 #733810
I miss the subtleties of arguments like this.

So, if I am talking with someone we may each use the same word or phrase in our discussion, unaware that we are talking about two different things. For instance, I may mention marveling at the smooth expertise of Olympic gymnasts, picturing men's gymnastics, and my friend agrees, thinking of women's gymnastics. This occurred recently, in fact. The nonsense of twin worlds isn't necessary.

Please explain where I go wrong. :chin:
hypericin August 28, 2022 at 03:32 #733812
Quoting Banno
Same meaning in each case, but different referent. Hence, the argument goes, the meaning of "water" is not its chemical composition.


Trouble is, this just isn't what Putnam says.


From the paper:


Let W 1 and W 2 be two possible worlds in which I exist and in which
this glass exists and in which I am giving a meaning explanation by
pointing to this glass and saying "this is water." (We do not assume
that the liquid in the glass is the same in both worlds.) Let us suppose
that in W 1 the glass is full of H20 and in W2 the glass is full of XYZ.
We shall also suppose that W 1 is the actual world and that XYZ is the
stuff typically called "water" in the world W 2 (so that the relation between English speakers in W 1 and English speakers in W 2 is exactly
the same as the relation between English speakers on Earth and English
speakers on Twin Earth). Then there are two theories one might have
concerning the meaning of "water."
( 1) One might hold that "water" was world-relative but constant in
meaning (i.e., the word has a constant relative meaning). On this
theory, "water" means the same in W 1 and W 2; it's just that water is
H20 in W 1 and water is XYZ in Wz.
(2) One might hold that water is H20 in all worlds (the stuff called
"water" in W 2 isn't water), but "water" doesn't have the same meaning
in W1 and Wz.
[b]If what was said before about the Twin Earth case was correct, then
( 2) is clearly the correct theory.[/b]


Agent Smith August 28, 2022 at 03:39 #733818
XYZ = H[sub]2[/sub]O (functionally)

XYZ [math]\neq[/math] H[sub]2[/sub]O (chemically)

That's all there is to Twin Earth.

Xenobiology & Xenochemistry territory.
bongo fury August 28, 2022 at 15:56 #733919
Quoting hypericin
And yet, despite our clear understanding of S, we have no idea what the referent is. What water is cold? The relevant context is unknown. S has no clear referent and yet is perfectly understandable. This can only be the case if meaning and referent are different: only then can we make sense of understanding the one without knowing the other.


So reference is to some particular item (e.g. glass of liquid), whereas meaning is reference to a wider class or extension (e.g. of water)?

We can refer to the wider extension (know the meaning of "water") without being able to refer to the particular item? Although wouldn't that (being so able) be knowing which item you meant?

hypericin August 28, 2022 at 18:56 #733960
Quoting bongo fury
So reference is to some particular item (e.g. glass of liquid), whereas meaning is reference to a wider class or extension (e.g. of water)?


I'm not using any philosophical jargon here.

Simply, we English speakers all know what S means. It is basic English. But we don't know to what it refers.

Therefore, meaning and reference are distinct concepts, and must not be conflated.

Therefore, it makes sense to say that water means the same thing on Earth and Twin Earth, and yet it refers to different substances.


hypericin August 28, 2022 at 19:00 #733962
Quoting jgill
Please explain where I go wrong. :chin:


Putnam is setting up an artificial scenario where two people's mental states are identical when they use a term, and yet the term is referring to different things. Therefore he concludes that meaning must involve more than just mental state, it must be located in the state of the world.

In your case, your mental states are different when you are using the same terms, and they are referring to different things. This is just ambiguity.
hypericin August 28, 2022 at 19:15 #733966
Here is another example:

S2: "The point on the ground two feet in front of you"

This has the same meaning for everyone who reads it. I would translate it into the same words in French no matter where I was standing. And yet, for every reader, the referent is a different point.

Same meaning, different referents.
Banno August 28, 2022 at 21:25 #733983
Reply to hypericin If you prefer. The point being that it clearly distinguishes meaning and reference, in contrast to your title.
bongo fury August 28, 2022 at 21:47 #733990

Quoting hypericin
Simply, we English speakers all know what S means. It is basic English. But we don't know to what it refers.

Therefore, meaning and reference are distinct concepts, and must not be conflated.


I suggest they're interchangeable. We all know that your sentence S refers to water in general, and cold things in general. We just don't know which bit of water you mean.
hypericin August 28, 2022 at 22:25 #734000
Quoting bongo fury
I suggest they're interchangeable. We all know that your sentence S refers to water in general, and cold things in general. We just don't know which bit of water you mean.


The use of the definite article means that S refers to a specific bit of water, not water in general.

If meaning and referent were interchangeable it would not be possible to know the meaning but not the referent.

hypericin August 28, 2022 at 22:27 #734001
Quoting Banno
If you prefer. The point being that it clearly distinguishes meaning and reference, in contrast to your title.


You got the argument totally wrong, nothing to do with my preference.

It would be silly to suggest that someone like Putnam would be naive to the distinction between meaning and reference. Nonetheless I'm claiming that he conflated the two in his conclusion.
hypericin August 28, 2022 at 23:14 #734013
Quoting bongo fury
I suggest they're interchangeable.


Compare the four sentences:

S1: The water is cold.
Meaning known, referent unknown

S2: ?????????????
Meaning unknown (unless you are Cambodian), referent unknown

S3: The water in Lake Michigan is cold.
Meaning known, referent known

S4: The water in Lake Michigan is ironic.
Meaning unknown, referent known


Meaning and referent can each be independently known or unknown.
bongo fury August 28, 2022 at 23:18 #734014
Quoting hypericin
that S refers to a specific bit of water, not water in general.


Yes, or as I put it: that you mean a specific bit of water, and we don't know which.

But, as you say, we all still know, as English speakers, what it means for the water (whichever it is) to be cold. Or, as I put it: we all understand your reference to cold things in general intersecting with water in general.

bongo fury August 28, 2022 at 23:27 #734018
S1: The water is cold.
General reference/meaning is indicated, specific not.

S2: ?????????????
General not, specific not.

S3: The water in Lake Michigan is cold.
Both indicated.

S4: The water in Lake Michigan is ironic.
Specific reference/meaning is indicated, but general not: we are unable to infer the general application of both "water" and "ironic" in the event that they intersect.

General and specific can each be independently known or unknown.
jgill August 28, 2022 at 23:42 #734024
Quoting hypericin
In your case, your mental states are different when you are using the same terms, and they are referring to different things.


Thanks. :ok:
Michael August 29, 2022 at 17:27 #734257
Reply to hypericin The relevant parts are these:

(II) That the meaning of a term (in the sense of "intension") determines its extension (in the sense that sameness of intension entails sameness of extension).

...

Let A and B be any two terms which differ in extension. By assumption (II) they must differ in meaning (in the sense of "intension").


Given that "water" on Earth and "water" on Twin Earth have a different extension (i.e. refer to different things), and given that two words with the same intension have the same extension, it then follows that "water" on Earth and "water" on Twin Earth have a different intension (i.e. mean different things).

So he's not conflating meaning and reference, rather pointing out that if they have a different referent then they have a different meaning. Two words that mean the same thing don't refer to different things.
Srap Tasmaner August 29, 2022 at 18:39 #734261
I guess I should reread the paper.

I'm tempted to say pragmatics is already all over this sort of thing. If I say, "Hand me the blue one," the meaning of that seems to be readily determined by any English speaker, and it could certainly be unambiguous in context, even though that sentence can be used to request completely different items in different situations. -- That the meaning is clear enough can, I think, be shown by cases of misspeaking or mistaken belief on the part of the speaker: if there isn't a blue one, and you really meant to ask for the green one, I'll understand that you were asking me to do something I can't, without ever fixing the reference of your request.

It would be a little odd to have to extend "situation" to cover the entire history of your species and your planet, though. But that breathtaking expansion of the prerequisites for making sense might be forced on us more often than we think. It's already kinda implied in there being water to talk about in the first place...
jgill August 29, 2022 at 19:04 #734267
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
I guess I should reread the paper.


Same here. Reading it lightly didn't work for me.
hypericin August 30, 2022 at 13:39 #734465
Reply to Michael
Hmm, good point. I think you're right.

My current thinking:
From our omniscient perspective of the posers of the thought experiment, "water" and twin "water" mean something different, for us. Nonetheless, when earthlings and twin earthlings say "water", they mean the exact same thing, for them. You can see this by imagining an earthling being transpose into twin earth, or vice versa. The alien's extension for water will exactly match the natives.

Putnam unjustifiably projects the perspective of the thought experiment onto its subjects.
Michael August 30, 2022 at 13:49 #734467
Quoting hypericin
Nonetheless, when earthlings and twin earthlings say "water", they mean the exact same thing, for them.


By this you mean that the subjects have the same psychological state? The point of Putnam's argument is to show that:

a) the subjects have the same psychological state, and
b) the word "water" means different things (both in the sense of intension and extension, as explained above) in each world

So therefore the subjects' psychological states have nothing to do with the meaning of the word "water", hence his conclusion "meanings just ain't in the head".

In other words, there's no such thing as what I mean by the word "water", there is only what the word "water" means.
hypericin August 30, 2022 at 13:51 #734469
Reply to bongo fury
I think I agree, and I think you hit on the mistake of my op.

The full meaning of a sentence can only be gotten with it's context. The context free part, the part you understand just by knowing the language, is only part of the meaning. The other part of the meaning is the part gotten from context. This contextual meaning may include referent(s), though the actual, physical (or mental) referent is of course not a meaning.

I was confusing contextualized meaning and referent.
hypericin August 30, 2022 at 14:31 #734472
Quoting Michael
n other words, there's no such thing as what I mean by the word "water", there is only what the word "water" means.


Imagine you were killed and replaced by an evil doppelganger. Your friend George, unaware of this, says "Hi Michael". George doesn't mean the doppelganger, he means to greet Good Michael. Only for those who learned of substitution would "Michael" mean the doppelganger.

Let A and B be any two terms which differ in extension. By assumption (II) they must differ in meaning (in the sense of "intension").


Seems very dubious when applied to differences in extension which the speaker is unaware of.



bongo fury August 30, 2022 at 14:35 #734473
Quoting hypericin
I was confusing contextualized meaning and referent.


And so was I, but deliberately. As per Goodman: https://fdocuments.in/document/goodman-likeness.html

Not necessarily as per Putnam, but I think it's arguable he is problematising non-extensional meanings.
Michael August 30, 2022 at 14:50 #734477
Quoting hypericin
Imagine you were killed and replaced by an evil doppelganger. Your friend George, unaware of this, says "Hi Michael". George doesn't mean the doppelganger, he means to greet Good Michael. Only for those who learned of substitution would "Michael" mean the doppelganger.


That's a proper name. "Michael" doesn't really mean anything[sup]1[/sup].

[sup]1[/sup] Unless you want to address the Hebrew etymology, in which case it means "who is like God?"
Joshs August 30, 2022 at 17:44 #734505
Reply to hypericin Quoting hypericin
The context free part, the part you understand just by knowing the language, is only part of the meaning. The other part of the meaning is the part gotten from context. This contextual meaning may include referent(s), though the actual, physical (or mental) referent is of course not a meaning.


If an actual, physical referent is not a meaning , what is it? The thing in itself? Isnt that what Kant says we never have access to? Arent we condemned to a world of ideas?
hypericin August 30, 2022 at 18:08 #734507
Quoting Michael
That's a proper name. "Michael" doesn't really mean anything, it's just an identifier.


What is a proper name if not a word that means a particular thing?

The same example can be made without using a proper name. Suppose all the world's water was suddenly replaced with twin water. Until I learned of this replacement, I would still mean water when I said "water". Only when I learned would I mean twin water. While still acknowledging that the people who were naïve to the change still mean water.
Michael August 30, 2022 at 18:17 #734509
Quoting hypericin
What is a proper name if not a word that means a particular thing?


It refers to a particular thing, but whether or not it means something is a contested subject. See the SEP article on names:

As well as having a range of entities to which it applies, the common noun “bachelor” has a meaning; it means man who has never been married. What about names? “Socrates” certainly applies to things. It applies, most obviously, to the founder of Western philosophy. Understood as a generic name (see Section 1), “Socrates” applies to several individuals: to a first approximation, all those who are called “Socrates”. But does “Socrates” also possess a meaning?

Some names have meanings in a sense. I have heard “Merlot” used to summon a child, and once knew of a married couple whose respective names were “Sunshine” and “Moonlight”. These names, we would say, have meanings. “Moonlight”, for instance, means light from the Moon. Something similar goes on when we say that “Theodore” means gift of god, or interpret a Mohawk name as a verb phrase. But this sense of meaning turns out not to be the one we are after.

Consider that for “bachelor” the meaning—man who has never been married—is also what determines the noun’s range of application. When the noun “bachelor” applies to someone, it’s because they are a man who has never been married. And when it fails to apply to someone, it’s because they are not. By contrast, the kind of meaning just canvassed for the names “Merlot” or “Moonlight” places no direct constraint on what they apply to. One may be named “Merlot”, and so fall within the name’s range of application, no matter what relationship one bears to the wine grape variety, Merlot (Mill 1843: 34). Moreover, one’s particular relationship to the grape is not the reason the name applies.

In this long tail of the article on semantics, we will confine ourselves to the question of whether names have a meaning in the sense in which “bachelor” does. Do they have a meaning that determines, or at least restricts, their extension (i.e., either range of application or reference)?


---

Quoting hypericin
The same example can be made without using a proper name. Suppose all the world's water was suddenly replaced with twin water. Until I learned of this replacement, I would still mean water when I said "water". Only when I learned would I mean twin water. While still acknowledging that the people who were naïve to the change still mean water.


And in such a scenario if you were to say "this is a glass of water" you would be wrong because it isn't a glass of water, it's a glass of twin-water. The extension of the word "water" isn't just whatever you claim to be water; it's whatever satisfies the intension of the word.
hypericin August 30, 2022 at 18:36 #734514
Quoting Michael
And in such a scenario if you were to say "this is a glass of water" you would be wrong because it isn't a glass of water, it's a glass of twin-water.


Suppose this change happened in 2000BC? Would everyone suddenly be wrong when they said "this is a cup of water" in their language?
Michael August 30, 2022 at 18:41 #734515
Michael August 30, 2022 at 18:43 #734516
Reply to hypericin As another example, assume that you believe that Trump is the President. If you were to claim that the President lives in Mar-a-Lago then you would be wrong because Joe Biden doesn't live in Mar-a-Lago. Regardless of who you believe is the President, the term "the President" refers to Joe Biden.
hypericin August 30, 2022 at 19:54 #734525
Quoting Michael
the term "the President" refers to Joe Biden.


This is grounded in community usage, as well as in this case legalisms. My argument is that meaning derives from community usage, not objective reality. (A more analogous example would be, suppose there was some bylaw which meant that legally Kamela Harris was in fact president. This law was so obscure that on one ever noticed, now or in the future. Would we all be wrong who say "Joe Biden is president?").

In 2000BC, "The center of the universe" generally had the extension of "The earth". Factually this was incorrect. Nonetheless, that is what people meant by it.

You have to divorce the concept of meaning from factual. How would you otherwise understand the history of science? When ancient philosophers mentioned "substance" did they mean all the details of quantum theory? Factually, that is what they were referring to, but their meaning contained no trace of wave equations.

hypericin August 30, 2022 at 20:19 #734531
Quoting Joshs
Arent we condemned to a world of ideas?

Yes, this is why I disagree with Putnam. Putnam believes that differences in the thing in itself, differences which we have no access to, can impose change on our meaning. These differences can only impose changes in the absolute facticity of our claims.
hypericin August 30, 2022 at 20:46 #734539
Quoting Michael
See the SEP article on names


If this is true, then meaning is divorced from extension. Names have extension, but according to this no corresponding intension.

Let A and B be any two terms which differ in extension. By assumption (II) they must differ in meaning (in the sense of "intension").


must be wrong. Two names differ in extension, but have the same (absent) intension.
Michael August 30, 2022 at 20:51 #734542
Reply to hypericin Proper names behave differently to common nouns.
Joshs August 30, 2022 at 21:02 #734547
Reply to hypericin Quoting hypericin
Yes, this is why I disagree with Putnam. Putnam believes that differences in the thing in itself, differences which we have no access to, can impose change on our meaning. These differences can only impose changes in the absolute facticity of our claims


I think Putnam became more and more dissatisfied with his original Twin Earth argument over time. After all , he was a conceptual relativist. He didn't believe that it was coherent to talk of a world determinable independently of our concepts.

“…the success of science cannot be anything but a puzzle as long as we view concepts and objects as radically independent; that is, as long as we think of "the world" as an entity that has a fixed nature, determined once and for all, independently of our framework of concepts." “So much about the identity relations between different categories of mathematical objects is conventional, that the picture of ourselves as describing a bunch of objects that are there "anyway" is in trouble from the start.” “…what leads to "Platonizing" is yielding to the temptation to find mysterious entities which somehow guarantee or stand behind correct judgments of the reasonable and the unreasonable.”
hypericin August 30, 2022 at 21:06 #734549
Reply to Michael

Quoting hypericin
Would we all be wrong who say "Joe Biden is president?"


I just did it. It is conflation.

In this case, yes we would be wrong, at least legally. Nonetheless we (by "we" I emphatically exclude batshit Trumpies) all mean Joe Biden, not Kamela Harris, not Trump, by "The President of the US".


sime August 31, 2022 at 13:23 #734723
In debates between semantic internalists vs externalists it isn't clear that matters of fact are being debated. Both sides of the debate seem only to be cheerleading different linguistic conventions that emphasize different semantics for different purposes. To think otherwise is to grant linguists powers of omniscient authority.

In the first person, when ones uses a name to refer to a present acquaintance, the distinction between sense and reference disappears. The distinction only comes into play when utterances are interpreted as referring to 'non-present' entities. But then it must be asked what is the meaning and usefulness of interpreting such words as designating what is absent? Doesn't designation amount to postponing an extensional interpretation of a name until a satisfactory object is recognised as passing into view?
hypericin August 31, 2022 at 23:40 #734859
Quoting sime
cheerleading different linguistic conventions that emphasize different semantics for different purposes.


I wouldn't put it that way. It is about our concepts. "Meaning" is a word for a concept. What is it? Specifically here, does it include features of objective reality, even ones we are unaware of?

The debate is factual to the extent you consider the contents of our concepts as matters of fact.

Quoting sime
To think otherwise is to grant linguists powers of omniscient authority.


Not sure what you mean here.