Twin Earth conflates meaning and reference.
I won't summarize the thought experiment myself, since I think most people here have heard of it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_Earth_thought_experiment
This experiment conflates meaning and reference. Consider the sentence:
S: "The water is cold".
Would you say you know what S means? If you do not, you certainly wouldn't understand the sentence you are reading right now, as you cannot read English.
And yet, despite our clear understanding of S, we have no idea what the referent is. What water is cold? The relevant context is unknown. S has no clear referent and yet is perfectly understandable. This can only be the case if meaning and referent are different: only then can we make sense of understanding the one without knowing the other.
Twin Earth fails because it does not distinguish meaning and referent.
The meaning of "Water" is the same on both planets: that wet clear stuff we have to drink every day. The meaning certainly cannot include chemical composition, otherwise no one knew what "water" meant before its composition was discovered. Yet people were happily and usefully saying "water" long before this discovery.
Only the referents, water and twin water, are different, in their chemical composition. "Water" means the same thing on earth and twin earth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_Earth_thought_experiment
This experiment conflates meaning and reference. Consider the sentence:
S: "The water is cold".
Would you say you know what S means? If you do not, you certainly wouldn't understand the sentence you are reading right now, as you cannot read English.
And yet, despite our clear understanding of S, we have no idea what the referent is. What water is cold? The relevant context is unknown. S has no clear referent and yet is perfectly understandable. This can only be the case if meaning and referent are different: only then can we make sense of understanding the one without knowing the other.
Twin Earth fails because it does not distinguish meaning and referent.
The meaning of "Water" is the same on both planets: that wet clear stuff we have to drink every day. The meaning certainly cannot include chemical composition, otherwise no one knew what "water" meant before its composition was discovered. Yet people were happily and usefully saying "water" long before this discovery.
Only the referents, water and twin water, are different, in their chemical composition. "Water" means the same thing on earth and twin earth.
Comments (39)
Trouble is, the thought experiment does explicitly distinguish meaning and reference.
On Earth, "water" denotes[math] H_2O[/math].
On twin Earth, "water" denotes[math] XYZ[/math].
In both worlds, the supposition is that the word "water" is used in the exact same way.
Same meaning in each case, but different referent. Hence, the argument goes, the meaning of "water" is not its chemical composition.
Here's the original paper.
SO I suppose the obvious question is, since you think the argument fails, what is it you think it fails to do?
So, if I am talking with someone we may each use the same word or phrase in our discussion, unaware that we are talking about two different things. For instance, I may mention marveling at the smooth expertise of Olympic gymnasts, picturing men's gymnastics, and my friend agrees, thinking of women's gymnastics. This occurred recently, in fact. The nonsense of twin worlds isn't necessary.
Please explain where I go wrong. :chin:
Trouble is, this just isn't what Putnam says.
From the paper:
XYZ [math]\neq[/math] H[sub]2[/sub]O (chemically)
That's all there is to Twin Earth.
Xenobiology & Xenochemistry territory.
So reference is to some particular item (e.g. glass of liquid), whereas meaning is reference to a wider class or extension (e.g. of water)?
We can refer to the wider extension (know the meaning of "water") without being able to refer to the particular item? Although wouldn't that (being so able) be knowing which item you meant?
I'm not using any philosophical jargon here.
Simply, we English speakers all know what S means. It is basic English. But we don't know to what it refers.
Therefore, meaning and reference are distinct concepts, and must not be conflated.
Therefore, it makes sense to say that water means the same thing on Earth and Twin Earth, and yet it refers to different substances.
Putnam is setting up an artificial scenario where two people's mental states are identical when they use a term, and yet the term is referring to different things. Therefore he concludes that meaning must involve more than just mental state, it must be located in the state of the world.
In your case, your mental states are different when you are using the same terms, and they are referring to different things. This is just ambiguity.
S2: "The point on the ground two feet in front of you"
This has the same meaning for everyone who reads it. I would translate it into the same words in French no matter where I was standing. And yet, for every reader, the referent is a different point.
Same meaning, different referents.
Quoting hypericin
I suggest they're interchangeable. We all know that your sentence S refers to water in general, and cold things in general. We just don't know which bit of water you mean.
The use of the definite article means that S refers to a specific bit of water, not water in general.
If meaning and referent were interchangeable it would not be possible to know the meaning but not the referent.
You got the argument totally wrong, nothing to do with my preference.
It would be silly to suggest that someone like Putnam would be naive to the distinction between meaning and reference. Nonetheless I'm claiming that he conflated the two in his conclusion.
Compare the four sentences:
S1: The water is cold.
Meaning known, referent unknown
S2: ?????????????
Meaning unknown (unless you are Cambodian), referent unknown
S3: The water in Lake Michigan is cold.
Meaning known, referent known
S4: The water in Lake Michigan is ironic.
Meaning unknown, referent known
Meaning and referent can each be independently known or unknown.
Yes, or as I put it: that you mean a specific bit of water, and we don't know which.
But, as you say, we all still know, as English speakers, what it means for the water (whichever it is) to be cold. Or, as I put it: we all understand your reference to cold things in general intersecting with water in general.
General reference/meaning is indicated, specific not.
S2: ?????????????
General not, specific not.
S3: The water in Lake Michigan is cold.
Both indicated.
S4: The water in Lake Michigan is ironic.
Specific reference/meaning is indicated, but general not: we are unable to infer the general application of both "water" and "ironic" in the event that they intersect.
General and specific can each be independently known or unknown.
Thanks. :ok:
Given that "water" on Earth and "water" on Twin Earth have a different extension (i.e. refer to different things), and given that two words with the same intension have the same extension, it then follows that "water" on Earth and "water" on Twin Earth have a different intension (i.e. mean different things).
So he's not conflating meaning and reference, rather pointing out that if they have a different referent then they have a different meaning. Two words that mean the same thing don't refer to different things.
I'm tempted to say pragmatics is already all over this sort of thing. If I say, "Hand me the blue one," the meaning of that seems to be readily determined by any English speaker, and it could certainly be unambiguous in context, even though that sentence can be used to request completely different items in different situations. -- That the meaning is clear enough can, I think, be shown by cases of misspeaking or mistaken belief on the part of the speaker: if there isn't a blue one, and you really meant to ask for the green one, I'll understand that you were asking me to do something I can't, without ever fixing the reference of your request.
It would be a little odd to have to extend "situation" to cover the entire history of your species and your planet, though. But that breathtaking expansion of the prerequisites for making sense might be forced on us more often than we think. It's already kinda implied in there being water to talk about in the first place...
Same here. Reading it lightly didn't work for me.
Hmm, good point. I think you're right.
My current thinking:
From our omniscient perspective of the posers of the thought experiment, "water" and twin "water" mean something different, for us. Nonetheless, when earthlings and twin earthlings say "water", they mean the exact same thing, for them. You can see this by imagining an earthling being transpose into twin earth, or vice versa. The alien's extension for water will exactly match the natives.
Putnam unjustifiably projects the perspective of the thought experiment onto its subjects.
By this you mean that the subjects have the same psychological state? The point of Putnam's argument is to show that:
a) the subjects have the same psychological state, and
b) the word "water" means different things (both in the sense of intension and extension, as explained above) in each world
So therefore the subjects' psychological states have nothing to do with the meaning of the word "water", hence his conclusion "meanings just ain't in the head".
In other words, there's no such thing as what I mean by the word "water", there is only what the word "water" means.
I think I agree, and I think you hit on the mistake of my op.
The full meaning of a sentence can only be gotten with it's context. The context free part, the part you understand just by knowing the language, is only part of the meaning. The other part of the meaning is the part gotten from context. This contextual meaning may include referent(s), though the actual, physical (or mental) referent is of course not a meaning.
I was confusing contextualized meaning and referent.
Imagine you were killed and replaced by an evil doppelganger. Your friend George, unaware of this, says "Hi Michael". George doesn't mean the doppelganger, he means to greet Good Michael. Only for those who learned of substitution would "Michael" mean the doppelganger.
Seems very dubious when applied to differences in extension which the speaker is unaware of.
And so was I, but deliberately. As per Goodman: https://fdocuments.in/document/goodman-likeness.html
Not necessarily as per Putnam, but I think it's arguable he is problematising non-extensional meanings.
That's a proper name. "Michael" doesn't really mean anything[sup]1[/sup].
[sup]1[/sup] Unless you want to address the Hebrew etymology, in which case it means "who is like God?"
If an actual, physical referent is not a meaning , what is it? The thing in itself? Isnt that what Kant says we never have access to? Arent we condemned to a world of ideas?
What is a proper name if not a word that means a particular thing?
The same example can be made without using a proper name. Suppose all the world's water was suddenly replaced with twin water. Until I learned of this replacement, I would still mean water when I said "water". Only when I learned would I mean twin water. While still acknowledging that the people who were naïve to the change still mean water.
It refers to a particular thing, but whether or not it means something is a contested subject. See the SEP article on names:
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Quoting hypericin
And in such a scenario if you were to say "this is a glass of water" you would be wrong because it isn't a glass of water, it's a glass of twin-water. The extension of the word "water" isn't just whatever you claim to be water; it's whatever satisfies the intension of the word.
Suppose this change happened in 2000BC? Would everyone suddenly be wrong when they said "this is a cup of water" in their language?
This is grounded in community usage, as well as in this case legalisms. My argument is that meaning derives from community usage, not objective reality. (A more analogous example would be, suppose there was some bylaw which meant that legally Kamela Harris was in fact president. This law was so obscure that on one ever noticed, now or in the future. Would we all be wrong who say "Joe Biden is president?").
In 2000BC, "The center of the universe" generally had the extension of "The earth". Factually this was incorrect. Nonetheless, that is what people meant by it.
You have to divorce the concept of meaning from factual. How would you otherwise understand the history of science? When ancient philosophers mentioned "substance" did they mean all the details of quantum theory? Factually, that is what they were referring to, but their meaning contained no trace of wave equations.
Yes, this is why I disagree with Putnam. Putnam believes that differences in the thing in itself, differences which we have no access to, can impose change on our meaning. These differences can only impose changes in the absolute facticity of our claims.
If this is true, then meaning is divorced from extension. Names have extension, but according to this no corresponding intension.
must be wrong. Two names differ in extension, but have the same (absent) intension.
I think Putnam became more and more dissatisfied with his original Twin Earth argument over time. After all , he was a conceptual relativist. He didn't believe that it was coherent to talk of a world determinable independently of our concepts.
the success of science cannot be anything but a puzzle as long as we view concepts and objects as radically independent; that is, as long as we think of "the world" as an entity that has a fixed nature, determined once and for all, independently of our framework of concepts." So much about the identity relations between different categories of mathematical objects is conventional, that the picture of ourselves as describing a bunch of objects that are there "anyway" is in trouble from the start. what leads to "Platonizing" is yielding to the temptation to find mysterious entities which somehow guarantee or stand behind correct judgments of the reasonable and the unreasonable.
Quoting hypericin
I just did it. It is conflation.
In this case, yes we would be wrong, at least legally. Nonetheless we (by "we" I emphatically exclude batshit Trumpies) all mean Joe Biden, not Kamela Harris, not Trump, by "The President of the US".
In the first person, when ones uses a name to refer to a present acquaintance, the distinction between sense and reference disappears. The distinction only comes into play when utterances are interpreted as referring to 'non-present' entities. But then it must be asked what is the meaning and usefulness of interpreting such words as designating what is absent? Doesn't designation amount to postponing an extensional interpretation of a name until a satisfactory object is recognised as passing into view?
I wouldn't put it that way. It is about our concepts. "Meaning" is a word for a concept. What is it? Specifically here, does it include features of objective reality, even ones we are unaware of?
The debate is factual to the extent you consider the contents of our concepts as matters of fact.
Quoting sime
Not sure what you mean here.