Irony and reality
Greetings! This is my first post to the forum, so bear with me.
As my username suggests I am best described by what in Jungian psychology is termed an "intuitive introvert". This type of personality, I believe, has given me the inclination to have an interest in philosophy throughout life. As such there are certain topics that really interest me which I can think about alone for long periods. One of these topics will be the subject of this post today: irony. There is much to say on this topic but I will begin with something ironical that relates to my philosophical personality. It is ironic that to be someone who has a mind that searches for meaning that the results of that search are often meaningless when related to others. This irony underlies my motive for joining this forum, as I hope that the meanings I have created in solitude will find an understanding audience here.
Following from that, I will try to keep this post to my own thoughts on the subject and not discuss much of the Greek origins of the concept or the thoughts of later philosophers. My concern with irony is a belief I hold about reality, in particular. Although, I do think irony plays a great role in social process, but I doubt I will touch on that in this post. As it relates to reality: I believe that reality is fundamentally ironic as consciousness and the world it perceives are united as one materially, but there is a deficit between the idea that consciousness produces and the world. Because of this circumstance people live in a constant state of irony, perhaps not on the surface of every single perception, but on the level of the moment by moment constant revolutions of reality unfolding against consciousness that has limited powers of expectation.
Let me examine the irony I used previously in this post: individual search for meaning ends meaninglessly with others not understanding or perhaps agreeing with one's conclusions. Does this example of irony fit the description of a deficit between the world and consciousness? Perhaps. One would expect that something they have thought that has made life for them more meaningful would also make other's lives more meaningful (and not be dismissed as nonsense). So, tell me, am I (and we all) in a fundamentally ironic state due to the dualistic (eg. mind-body) nature of reality, or is the only ironic thing that what I hold to be true and expect others to find meaningful to be summarily dismissed as nonsense?
As my username suggests I am best described by what in Jungian psychology is termed an "intuitive introvert". This type of personality, I believe, has given me the inclination to have an interest in philosophy throughout life. As such there are certain topics that really interest me which I can think about alone for long periods. One of these topics will be the subject of this post today: irony. There is much to say on this topic but I will begin with something ironical that relates to my philosophical personality. It is ironic that to be someone who has a mind that searches for meaning that the results of that search are often meaningless when related to others. This irony underlies my motive for joining this forum, as I hope that the meanings I have created in solitude will find an understanding audience here.
Following from that, I will try to keep this post to my own thoughts on the subject and not discuss much of the Greek origins of the concept or the thoughts of later philosophers. My concern with irony is a belief I hold about reality, in particular. Although, I do think irony plays a great role in social process, but I doubt I will touch on that in this post. As it relates to reality: I believe that reality is fundamentally ironic as consciousness and the world it perceives are united as one materially, but there is a deficit between the idea that consciousness produces and the world. Because of this circumstance people live in a constant state of irony, perhaps not on the surface of every single perception, but on the level of the moment by moment constant revolutions of reality unfolding against consciousness that has limited powers of expectation.
Let me examine the irony I used previously in this post: individual search for meaning ends meaninglessly with others not understanding or perhaps agreeing with one's conclusions. Does this example of irony fit the description of a deficit between the world and consciousness? Perhaps. One would expect that something they have thought that has made life for them more meaningful would also make other's lives more meaningful (and not be dismissed as nonsense). So, tell me, am I (and we all) in a fundamentally ironic state due to the dualistic (eg. mind-body) nature of reality, or is the only ironic thing that what I hold to be true and expect others to find meaningful to be summarily dismissed as nonsense?
Comments (19)
I'm not sure I would use the word "irony" here. You seem to ask why others don't find meaning in an activity or an idea that is meaningful for you. An answer is not easily forthcoming and requires an honest appraisal of why it holds this status for you.
Sometimes a person finds something meaningful at the origins of a social trend, and as time progresses others do as well. That fortunate set of circumstances held for me sixty years or so ago, and an activity I championed then in relative solitude now has perhaps seven or eight million participants in the USA and many more overseas. Partly it's being convinced of its value no matter what others might think and partly it's reading the tea leaves.
On the other hand, as a mathematician, the subject path I took has held wonderful meaning for me over the years - but not at all for others. Merely one of tens of thousands low ranking topics on Wikipedia. You win and you lose. That's life. :cool:
From Wiki - For Rorty an ironist is someone who fulfils three conditions:
(1) She has radical and continuing doubts about the final vocabulary she currently uses because she has been impressed by other vocabularies, vocabularies taken as final by people or books she has encountered; (2) she realizes that arguments phrased in her present vocabulary can neither underwrite nor dissolve these doubts; (3) insofar as she philosophizes about her situation, she does not think that her vocabulary is closer to reality than others, that it is in touch with a power, not herself.
In relation to your statement that reality is dualistic. I don't think anyone knows what realty is as such. It's just a word, right. Really real? At best what we have is tentative models or stories of what we like to call reality, which essentially amounts to the world of appearances as apprehended by humans and/or their instruments.
Example of irony: Yes. That's certainly ironic.
Irony is one of those words that means different things to different people. It would help if you defined just what you mean by the word.
Quoting introbert
Given the definition you're using, your argument is circular. If reality is the measure of irony, how can it be ironic. It is meaninglessly self-referential like "This sentence is false."
Irony is a property of language. Reality is what comes before language. Reality can't be ironic.
Quoting introbert
I think I'd say that reality is fundamentally absurd, but for different reasons. Even so, I think I feel what you're saying here in an opaque way.
The major addendum I'd add is "some" -- so "some people live in a constant state of irony"
But only because of the feelings that the word "irony" evokes. There's a sense in which everyday, even when it goes according to plan, is totally unexpected. So I think I'd agree with that. But I think there's also being-in-the-world and everydayness -- habit and repetition.
But we must, yes?
I don't believe in universal tonics.
Some of what you list have political solutions, but those are anxiety producing because we, as individuals, don't have control over politics -- given that political acts are collective, we very literally have no control over them.
But, in order to address those, we must be able to "go on" -- not in listing the problems of course, but in addressing them or confronting them, to the degree we are able. We must feel better -- or, at least, feel better about the agony we're feeling. Or we won't go on at all.
We don't have to wallow in them -- we can instead reflect upon translucent thoughts our minds do comprehend. Which, on the whole, tends to make the opaque ones easier for me. Wallowing, though at times I need that indulgence, has a way of getting away with itself -- it is its own motivational feedback loop.
But, as I said, I don't believe in universal tonics. I'm only sharing what I think.
It all comes back to this, from the OP:
Quoting introbert
Are you saying there was no reality until there was consciousness? That's an argument I've made before in a somewhat different context.
It's possible you and I are not that far apart in our understanding.