Guidelines: Tone and Context to be clarified?

Amity September 04, 2022 at 08:38 3375 views 12 comments
Following recent helpful discussion and its conclusion:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13381/moderation-of-political-threads/p1

In political discussions, we have a much lighter touch on vitriol and inflamed tempers
— fdrake

Final decision:
fdrake:I'm going to close the thread. It seems like current consensus is that there doesn't need to be a systemic change in how tone is policed in political discussions. There were a few times in recent memory where we perhaps intervened too late under the current ruleset. Maybe we can try and be quicker on the draw.


Follow-up:
One reason that there was late intervention is precisely because of the ingrained philosophy of TPF with its high level of tolerance - 'Under the current ruleset'.

It's not only in political discussions or in recent memory either.
I will never forget the focused vitriolic set of personal attacks by Apollodorus in the Plato discussions which caused some posters to leave. Eventually, this was tackled by mods but it took a while.

Hanover:I think the Ukraine thread got very out of control and we should have done better to reel it in early. It resulted in lingering bad feelings.

The question is whether we need a rule change (as you suggest) for political threads, or do we just need to acknowledge we didn't properly enforce that thread. That's the ongoing discussion.


I agree. But if change is to happen, to make things better, then we need to look at the root causes.
Some questions to answer:
Why did the Ukraine thread get out of control? Which posters/mods were involved?
Why wasn't it reeled in earlier?
To me, it seemed incredible, if not ludicrous, that Admin found it toxic and let it continue.
I suggest this was due to the prevailing attitude, systemic, hard-wired; also personal involvement.
The utter reluctance to step in...until it was too late...

The rules regarding 'tone and context' do not make explicit the exception of 'political discussion'.
If there is to be no systemic change, then perhaps it is worthwhile to be upfront about it.
A revision to:

Baden:2) Tone matters:
A respectful and moderate tone is desirable as it's the most likely to foster serious and productive discussion. Having said that, you may express yourself strongly as long as it doesn't disrupt a thread or degenerate into flaming (which is not tolerated and will result in your post being deleted).

3) Context matters:
The amount of leeway you get on the above depends to a degree on where you post and what the topic under discussion is. You're likely to have more freedom in the Shoutbox or in discussions in the Lounge, for example, than in the philosophical discussions.


I disagree that there should be more leeway. However, that has been discussed.
Given the requirement of being as consistent as possible, standards should be applied equally.
So, clarity should begin by including 'Political discussion' along with 'Shoutbox' and 'Lounge'.

I initially asked for increased vigilance but then changed it to a compromise position.

fdrake:'we perhaps intervened too late under the current ruleset. Maybe we can try and be quicker on the draw.


Being 'quicker on the draw' is exactly what was being asked for!
So, how to make sense of that in the Guidelines...?

Comments (12)

Baden September 04, 2022 at 14:42 #735828
Quoting Amity
clarity should begin by including 'Political discussion' along with 'Shoutbox' and 'Lounge'.


The "for example" part indicates the list isn't exhaustive, so I'm not sure it's necessary. However, if other mods and members think that would help, I don't object to doing it.
Amity September 04, 2022 at 15:01 #735834
To be honest, I doubt that anybody else gives a damn.

However, if anything should be included it is 'political discussions', given that its heated 'tone' has given rise to discussion about the appropriate level of moderation.
The 'Shoutbox' and 'Lounge', could easily be edited to 'Social' areas.

So, social and political discussions are treated equally; set apart from 'philosophical'.
Easy, no?
universeness September 04, 2022 at 15:06 #735836
Reply to Amity Reply to Baden

I think religious discussion can be as heated as political discussion. I heard the regular warning in my youth of 'If you want to live a long life then never bring up politics or religion in a local Glasgow pub.'
Do you want to include 'religious discussions,' as well as political ones along with shoutbox and the lounge, in the guideline entry, you cited?
javi2541997 September 04, 2022 at 15:13 #735842
Quoting universeness
I think religious discussion can be as heated as political discussion


Agreed. These topics tend to be taken so personal from some users because those tend to defend their arguments and doctrines at any price.
universeness September 04, 2022 at 15:24 #735845
Reply to javi2541997
@Baden
@Jamal
:up: Where would you place topics such as antinatalism? I can certainly get heated on that topic! I am glad I am not a moderator on this or any other site. Maybe we need an 'angry PM style facility' where you can declare another member as a 'hostile,' which means a moderator can ask both parties if they wish to verbally fight it out. ( A wee boxing ring icon might be appropriate). This allows them to insult each other to their hearts content in 'The Ring' but only those involved and the moderators can view the content.
They can stop fighting when they have exhausted every useless expletive they can think of or they just get bored.
EDIT: the moderators can also decide if one or both of them seems 'not right in the head' and can decide to ban them or not.
Amity September 04, 2022 at 15:26 #735846
Quoting universeness
I think religious discussion can be as heated as political discussion


Clearly so. At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam.
My eventual argument was for the standards of moderation to be applied equally across the board.
Then there would be no need for such exclusionary guidelines.
However, my argument failed to convince. See:
Quoting Amity
I initially asked for increased vigilance but then changed it to a compromise position.

'we perhaps intervened too late under the current ruleset. Maybe we can try and be quicker on the draw.
— fdrake

Being 'quicker on the draw' is exactly what was being asked for!
So, how to make sense of that in the Guidelines...?

universeness September 04, 2022 at 15:28 #735849
Reply to Amity
So how about my idea of 'The Ring.'
Amity September 04, 2022 at 15:44 #735856
Reply to universeness
Not a fan.
There's already a place for Debate discussions.
Perhaps 'Hot Debate' :fire:
universeness September 04, 2022 at 16:15 #735867
Reply to Amity
I don't mind what the title is 'The Ring,' 'The Pit,' 'Limbo!,' etc. Hot debate could be misunderstood as 'sex talk.' or is that just my mind working overtime?
A moderator could invite two or more hostile members into the ring but he/she could 'throw them into the pit' and give them no access to anything else on TPF until they solve their problems with each other to the satisfaction of the moderator. It would be their 'last chance saloon' before a permanent ban for life!
BTW are there any female moderators on this site?
Baden September 04, 2022 at 17:46 #735888
Quoting Amity
So, social and political discussions are treated equally; set apart from 'philosophical'.
Easy, no?


Sounds reasonable to me.
Amity September 04, 2022 at 19:37 #735940
Quoting Baden
So, social and political discussions are treated equally; set apart from 'philosophical'.
Easy, no?
— Amity

Sounds reasonable to me.


Well, it only sounds reasonable if that is what you want and consider fair and wise.
The Guidelines are well written and thoughtful, covering most eventualities.

A policy about political discussions, even if I don't agree with it, needs to be written out explicitly.
Clarity of rules is helpful for both newcomers and for mods to point to when decisions are queried.

It's healthy when the forum Admin and team are willing to listen and follow up, carefully.
Thank you, guys :sparkle:
Baden September 04, 2022 at 20:36 #735972
Reply to Amity

OK, I made an edit pretty much along those lines. So, I'll close this now. Thanks for the feedback!