Forced to be immoral
I seriously want to know your rationale for this dilemma.
The moral principle is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The social/political principle is being the democracy we were or being as Nazi Germany.
Problem on a personal level.
I met a man who has brain damage because years ago a criminal caused this right frontal brain damage in the process of robbing him, and later he suffered strokes increasing his difficulty in thinking. The last one was 2 months ago and he has improved since being in my home. For sure, he should not be left on the streets, and for sure I could be evicted if I continue to allow him to sleep on my living room floor while I do my best to get him connected with services and appropriate housing. To me, this is no better than knowing the Jews are being taken from their homes and killed. What is the morally right thing for me to do?
I listen to a professor explaining the ancient Greek position on character and judging right from wrong and it is very clear it is wrong to put him back on the streets before necessary connections are made, as it was wrong to ignore what was being done to the Jews, and it was right to hide the Jews and protect them if at all possible. Morally I must help him but the risk to me is very high. If I lose my housing I am unlikely to get back into housing because we have a housing crisis and I have subsidized housing and can not even afford one bedroom without help paying rent.
The moral principle is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The social/political principle is being the democracy we were or being as Nazi Germany.
Problem on a personal level.
I met a man who has brain damage because years ago a criminal caused this right frontal brain damage in the process of robbing him, and later he suffered strokes increasing his difficulty in thinking. The last one was 2 months ago and he has improved since being in my home. For sure, he should not be left on the streets, and for sure I could be evicted if I continue to allow him to sleep on my living room floor while I do my best to get him connected with services and appropriate housing. To me, this is no better than knowing the Jews are being taken from their homes and killed. What is the morally right thing for me to do?
I listen to a professor explaining the ancient Greek position on character and judging right from wrong and it is very clear it is wrong to put him back on the streets before necessary connections are made, as it was wrong to ignore what was being done to the Jews, and it was right to hide the Jews and protect them if at all possible. Morally I must help him but the risk to me is very high. If I lose my housing I am unlikely to get back into housing because we have a housing crisis and I have subsidized housing and can not even afford one bedroom without help paying rent.
Comments (112)
I would hope to have the courage to continue to offer my support (in your place) and achieve the best outcome before suffering personal setback, but I can't honestly say I would do. I am glad there are people like you in the world, it is undoubtedly a better place because. If I were the person deciding to evict you I certainly wouldn't do that, even if that meant problems for me. Could you dialog with your housing agency to try and pre-empt that problem?
Be that as it may, to the extent you want to know your moral duty in caring for this individual, I am willing to accept your efforts as super-moral, but not morally demanded. Just like rushing into a burning home to save someone is a super-moral act, it is not immoral to refuse to do so.
In terms of why your community prohibits you from having guests of this sort I don't know, but it raises the question of why your home is so highly regulated and why your community would have such rules. I am not immediately willing to accept that the rules they have are needlessly callous and unreasonable because it is possible that the rules have been imposed for some greater public health or safety reason. Again, I don't know, but I would like to hear from the other side on this issue as to why this person is unwelcome.
If the net consequence of his living with you is that you both become homeless, I'm not entirely sure what has been accomplished other than that you can claim to be more moral than your neighbors. My inclination would be to do as you have, which is to work with public healthcare agencies and housing enforcement to see if I could arrive at a way in helping the person without resorting to defiance. If, on the other hand, your community's code enforcement is as lax as its public health response, a whole lot of nothing is going to happen by having him live there.
The moral dilemma which you describe is a tricky one. It is one which some may be able to relate to and others may dismiss completely. I remember when I first came to London as a student I used to get to know and involved with people with so many problems. It was in a rough area of London and I had some into where I was living and I even tried to persuade a landlord to let someone have a room but he wouldn't. I got to the point where I stopped having these people into my room as I was worried that I would lose my accommodation and some people advised me that it was not safe for me to have such visitors.
When I began my mental health nursing I moved to a different area and I do go back to that area sometimes. However, I have never seen any of these people and don't know what has happened to them. I wonder if they were found places to live or if they remained left on the streets and died. They were of varying ages and I suspect that many had mental health issues and other complex ones.
The individual you are describing does sound in a bad way and who should be responsible is a good question. It is probably different from Nazi Germany because it is not so much about torture but more one of neglect, and it may be a real one of our time. Communities have broken down and some have no one. In some ways, people have become more like numbers. While some seem to manage to get help others seem to fall through the net and be left, almost as invisible.
I can understand your predicament and my parents used to get involved with some who had great difficulties. It became very stressful. Moral concern is important but boundaries are important because if you got into problems you may find that no one in your community is there to support you.
It is much much harder than I expected! I need information I don't have. Thank goodness I have gained the ability to talk with his sister who lives in a different state and I learned a lot. That dent in his forehead is the result of being mugged and robbed. The blow to his head caused right frontal lobe brain damage and that is why he has a disability income, meaning his income is less than $900 a month, and renting just a bedroom is over $700. He has a car so he has a bit of a life but that is a major expense. On top of that is untreated diabetes and he has repeatedly had strokes damaging his brain, even more. We have made huge progress in his ability to find his way from my home to the senior center and we have a medical appointment in a couple of weeks which opens the door to getting help.
His ability to think things through is very low so getting a cell phone is next to impossible! I got him to the store to look at cell phones but we could not complete the process of buying one. He threw away his last one away because he has trouble using them. I brought him home because I had no one of contacting him when he is lost on the streets.
Time for me to get back on task. The Senior and Disable Services is open in a few minutes. I have until 12:30 before I go to work today, so maybe we can get something done!
THANK YOU EVERYONE- I WILL GET BACK TO YOU ALL AS SOON AS CAN.
Interesting topic!
Quoting Athena
Right. This is supposed to be said by Jesus, and so it has been persisted in time as a rule of conduct among Christians. However, Jesus also taught turning "the other cheek". Now, how many among the about 2 billion Christians apply it? I believe you know the almost inexistent percentage. So, I believe this principle has and utterly failed, as it was expected to, besides. This is what happens when the bar is raised too high.
So, I believe this already supports your claim of being "forced to be immoral", which is also the title of your topic.
However, this very important problem that you brought in in this place could have been avoided, if the standard was lower from start. For example --continuing in the context of morality-- if the moral principle were only "Do not do to others what you do not want the others do to you", which is both more logical and applicable, this "forcing" problem wouldn't exist. In fact, I believe that this pronciple is applied --explicitly or implicitly, directly or indirectly-- in the whole world, and not only by Christians. It is so powerful, that it is the principle that determines the difference between right from wrong --in general-- and it is also the basic idea behind and the foundation of many laws all over the world.
And, since it is logical and applicable, this principle does not "forces us to be immoral". It just determines if we are acting immorally. Huge difference!
***
Now, there are other things that society does to force us to violate the law --laws being of a lower value and less important in the human condition than morality-- besides raising the bar too high. I will speak for Greece, because this is where the majority of my experiences and knowledge ion the subject come from.
So, one thing that states do is to deceive and even sometimes "steal" citizens regarding taxes --posing high and a lot of (unnecessary) taxes, applying very few and little --sometimes non-existent-- allowances for tax exemptions where they ought to, not returning back what is owed to taxpayers, etc. This then gives the right --in fact, it promotes the act-- for the citizens to "steal" back the state by hiding, not declaring (part of) their income.
Another thing that governments do is creating too strict a legislation that people cannot abide to or that it is useless or that is not controlled by the police (so they fall into disuse). This then pushes the citizens to ignore the relevant laws.
Yes. This is the stupidity and immorality that always reigned in the world and the authorities just take advantage of and back them up.
Good someone with experience. Experience with people who need help and experience with the moral dilemma. It is absolutely best for me to avoid people who need help because I am so strongly compelled to help. As some would say, I don't have good boundaries.
I have been listening to college lectures about how ancient Athens argued about character and moral dilemmas of judging good and bad. It has always been my nature (a basic trait of character) to care for others, and even put their needs and desires before mine. Ignoring someone who needs help strongly goes against my nature. For me, in every cell in my body, it is a moral mandate that I help those who need help and want help. THIS IS NOT 100% RATIONAL. IT IS A STRONG FEELING.
On the other hand, for me, this is politically like Nazi Germany because it is a matter of who has the power to be the authority over us and how is that justified? Some may say God alone has authority over us and that comes up in preChristian Greek debates and against with Protestants and arguments for democracy. A king orders that a man be left to rot in the fields and his sister buriers him. The king is livid with her and she snaps back, even before the kings, sisters buried their bothers.
Quoting ancient-literature
If we bow to authority as the Germans did, we destroy our liberty. We destroy the notion that we turn to a god to know right from wrong. This does not have to be the god of Abram, it is a matter of reverence. This matters because it is a matter of responsibility and personal power and our character, if we are moral and upstanding citizens or not. We fought two world wars to defend that point of view.
We all judge right and wrong with our feelings and if we take that out of the equation, may the gods have mercy on us. What does everyone think defined Nazi Germany if not a matter of power and authority? In the beginning, the Jews were just removed and if German citizens had united in a conviction of human rights, none of the rest would have followed. By the time enough people realized something was seriously wrong, individuals no longer had the power to make a difference without losing their jobs and maybe their lives.
Homelessness is torture and it is a death sentence.
That comment about raising the bar too high is interesting, but the quote is also called the golden rule, and as you said it exists in all civilizations only worded slightly differently.
Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you. is a Confucius quote. Your explanation of why that is a better way of wording the thought is appreciated. I will agree with you.
I am not sure of what you said about taxes. Because I have been politically active, I know the majority of people vote for social programs but not the tax increases to fund them. For many years I was a political activist to get something done about homelessness, so I am very aware of the reality of people in favor of doing the right thing, but no one wants to pay more taxes. In the past, Oregon had few people and a lot of forests, and the government paid for everything with revenues from the forest. Texas paid for things with revenues from oil. Eventually, there are more people are fewer resources for revenue and then we end up paying taxes. That is an economic problem.
I think we have many economic problems and that we all could face economic collapse. That is another issue. This morning I picked up the latest information for low-income people who need shelter and I am wondering who is in touch with reality and who is not! Does the government bureaucracy that puts out this information realize how discouraging it is to read low-income houses is hundreds of more than what they have? I studied Public Policy and Administration at the university level and that was the most depressing time in my life. Government is not the answer, at least not the way we are going about things now. I heard a public statement encouraging people like me to help by renting a bedroom, but the rules of the game for low-income people prevents that. We have given too much power to the government and "land lords" to control everything and lost our individual liberty and power. That is in the US. I don't know how that is around the world.
Oh dear, we need to discuss economics and see if we can figure out better rules for the game. Another problem is we don't have enough land for families to have the nice-sized plots they once had and the cost of building a house is for too high to build low-income housing that is affordable for many of us who need low-income housing and as our population increases, these problems are going to get worse. My son's and daughter's generation will experience far more homeless old people than we have now because we are not building the public housing for them that they will need. People with small houses can't take in their aging parents, or their adult children. We just are not planning for meeting our shelter needs.
The network of folk with disabilities in which I'm involved has grown over the last few years to include folk from outside Australia. One of the things that has shocked and disgusted me is the realisation of how disjointed and inadequate the support given folk with disabilities in the United States is.
It's no use to anyone if you are evicted. At some point you may have to ask your guest to leave, so that you can continue to support him. That is not an immoral act on your part, nor an act of expediency, but simply the best thing to do. You are in a better position to provide help if you maintain your own circumstances.
A strategy that has proven useful here is to be open about one's circumstances, to the point of informing local, state and federal services and politicians, and lobby groups. The absurdity of your situation can serve to draw out the best in service providers, but also making sure that they are aware they are being watched and evaluated and that their responses will be known tends to focus them on their duties.
For better or worse you are an advocate for folk with acquired brain injuries, and for folk with disabilities in general. Get in touch with other advocates, find out what they have done in the past and what has worked and what hasn't.
Basically you need to network.
I completely agree that homelessness is a torture and it seems that many simply don't care. I am trying to find new accommodation at present and it is extremely difficult. The reason why I have to find accommodation is that my landlord has left the country and it turns out that he is not the real owner of the house and it had been a sublet. The landlord who has left the country had not been paying who he was meant to be paying and wishes us to find somewhere else because he plans to renovate the house.
There are also so many rogue landlords about. A few weeks ago I almost signed a contract. Then, I found a link with many dodgy clauses, including one of agreeing not to be on the electoral role or claim any benefits. It seems that many landlords wish to find ways of not being known by the council because once they are, they have to abide by so many rules.
Homelessness may vary in different parts of the world, and I know that it is particularly bad in London. About a year ago I was at a station at an end of the line after the tubes had shut. There was a shelter there with seats and it was full of people trying to sleep even though there were clear divisions between the seats, making it impossible for many to lie down. There were some older people too. Homelessness has increased over the last few years and the lockdown situation seems to have exacerbated it. Of course, many do care as well as many who don't but it is an increasing problem. It probably coincides with a much wider division between the rich and the poor in the first world. Those with disabilities are especially affected, especially those which are more hidden.
Anyway, I am glad that you found some help for the person you were concerned about. That is because in each unique situation there will be nothing done if everyone walks away. The morality is also connected to compassion and conscience rather than simply rational logic.
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I work in the areas of mental health and substance misuse and many people I have worked with have had intellectual disabilities, cognitive impairments, brain injuries, mental ill health, histories of trauma and associated complex behaviors. Homelessness is common amongst this client group and I spent most of the 1990's working with rough sleepers in our rather large city.
There's one principle I follow which may be considered harsh and it focuses on personal boundaries. I am unlikely to put my own life, my health or my housing at risk. If I lose my stability, I am of no use in any other way and recovery may be impossible. I have watched several people come unstuck in their attempt to be of assistance to others.
Wow! I didn't know that. I'll have to refresh my memory about Confucius ... Anyway, this is a principle that I always supported. Someone mentioned once in a dinner the "golden rule". Because he had deceived in some legal case, I reacted "This is something too difficult ... One should first try not to do to others ...". And answered me, "Oh, this is too easy!" See the hypocrisy of people? They talk about high standards while they themselves cannot meet lower ones.
Quoting Athena
What I meant was that when the state steals or deceives you, it pushes you, it motivates you to steal back, i.e. to do an immoral action. When this becomes the rule, ii also becomes a kind of "forced" situation, imposed by the authorities, making people act immorally.
This does not happen e.g. in France --from what I know from the past-- and other countries, where the state is fair towards the French taxpayers, who, consequently, consider it bad for people not to pay taxes or hide income, and rightly so. But in Greece, not paying taxes or hiding income is a standard and someone who can do that is consider a cool person! This is what I described as a kind of "forced" situation which makes people act immorally.
Quoting Athena
I had always had in mind that the US governmnents were more or less fair towards citizens, in general. Anyway, I don't believe that not think that the US governmnents have more power that the Greek ones, who are absolute lords, from the time they are elected. Rocks; nothing can move them. There's no senate here like in US, where senators may vote against their own party, i.e. vote by conscience. The ruling party owns more than half of the Parilament seats, and everyone votes "by party", instead of "by conscience" (under a "silent" threat that they may be reprimanded or even demoted). Bye, bye democracy!
And with this, I can announce officially that we have deviated from the subject of the topic! :smile:
You are right to speak of boundaries. Prior to working in the mental health system, I didn't understand this and it is so important for oneself and others. I feel that going back to my early phase that I was a bit of a 'useless do gooder' because I wanted to help others.
When I invited someone with a lot of problems who I met in the library back to my parents home when I was 18 it was a disaster, as he kept coming on a daily basis. He used to spend time sitting drinking tea with my mother and her friends when I was at college duribg the daym My parents got involved and when he became homeless my father found him sleeping in a flower bed at 6.30 am and brought him back to our home. My mother arranged for him to go to a hostel shelter. Later on, he stole money from my parents. We also discovered that he had a psychiatric forensic history. He is married now but he often made phone calls to my mother.
My mother also did volunteer work at a hostel after she stopped working. She was handing out free clothes there. She really liked this but she was not given any training at all and had difficulty understanding boundaries when she was out in the town. She used to know so many people who used to bombard her with their problems.
This is a fine principle for maintaining the status quo. But it cannot lead to reformation or revolution. It will not work for a soldier, who must be prepared at times to put his own health and life at risk, and it will not work for a campaigner for social change. It will not end homelessness, nor will it defeat fascism.
Evil persists when good people do nothing.
Humans cause such circumstances; humans allow them to persist, humans have the collective power to change such circumstances.
YES, I KNOW, such change IS much easier to type about than to make into a reality and by doing so, improve the human experience. BUT it must still be constantly stated, screamed, voted for, insisted upon and finally perhaps even physically warred for. One thing is for sure, preventing the kind of situations @athena et al reports, and it's many, far worse variations, such as famine, continuing human slavery etc, etc. will not end until humans organise themselves into the kinds of political and social movements that will force them to end by hand or by brain or both.
Obviously.
The safety board then consulted an expert who informed them they were doing it wrong. He showed that the value of a human life should be based on risk of dying. They did the math and a human life came out to be worth $10,000,000 (1980s). This immediately turned the tables in favor of the safety board as it translated into a net profit if they stuck warning labels on the containers of toxic chemicals. The proposal was given the green signal.
An option we should work on: Let's not try to change the system, but instead work within it. If it's money everyone cares about, prove that being unethical is something we can't afford à la economic sanctions that make waging war suicide despite some exceptions.
I like your reasoning. Quoting Hanover
It be just my area but I have Section 8 Housing and the is federal. Anyone who has anything to do with drugs is evicted, so a mother sheltering a son or daughter who uses, will be evicted. We might be able to change that because we changed how the state handles children when they are made wards of the state but wow that was a huge effort involving many people, organizing and getting media attention and all that may have been fertile but we had a new governor who wanted to change things so all our work enabled the governor to make changes. However, with the information Banno gave me, I am thinking maybe I should become more of an activist regarding brain-damaged people and the wrong of living them on the street without caseworkers and the help they need. My sister is a homeless activist and we are planning on testifying at the state level after the first of next year when the legislature will take up the problem of homelessness again.
Section 8 does not allow sharing homes. I am not sure about all of that. If I got married I could share a home but I sure don't want to do that! My rental agreement is for one person and all the rentals have been in have a two limit on visits. That is reasonable but it is not adequate for a brain-damaged person. I think we can all agree brain damaged people should not be alone on the streets unless that is their choice. My guest's ability to function has greatly improved this past week and we have essential progress on hooking him up with services and the medical community. We need shelters for these people complete with the ability to evaluate them and then help them get the right services and shelter and that just isn't economically possible right now. Before Reagan, we did have places for these people but Reagan closed them when he was president. Some of the places were hell holes because far, far more people needed help than communities could help. Some of the places were ideal with different levels of care. Oh dear, thank you for your questions, I have so much research to do. :cry: I am really way too small and limited to do what needs to be done and back to the moral thing, it is like Nazi Germany if I ignore the problem and do nothing. In a democracy, people are supposed to take responsibility for resolving problems. In Germany's Christian Republic the state controlled everything and the people were made powerless. I fear we are moving in that direction but I also see a lot of movement for the good. :worry: I am way too small and limited but does that excuse me?
Sorry at the moment I am feeling overwhelmed because there is so much more for me to do if I become more politically active. You made me aware of how much research I have to do. :lol: I don't know if all this is helpful but I will try to find it in me to learn more and organize my thinking. By the way, I have sleep apnea and would become totally dysfunctional if I became homeless and didn't have electricity for my CPAP. I would rather be dead than homeless but that is another thread labeled "life sucks".
On the upside, just as much good is happening as bad. I have heard the New Age is a total change of consciousness and those who come of age in the New Age will not be able to relate to our brutal past.
I LOVE YOU GUYS, ALL OF YOU. YOU ARE AN IMPORTANT PART OF CHANGE.
If this new age actually comes to pass, let's not fool ourselves, it will supply just as much brutality as the old age, only the justification for it will change. Mark my words.
Why do you say that? I am concerned that running everything from the top down is leading to a Nazi-type organization. But on the other hand, I am amazed by the amount of concern for homeless people today. In my community, we used the police to drive the homeless away. At first, the change was gradual but in 2008 we hit a tipping point and today candidates try to win our vote by saying they will resolve the homeless problem. I think there is more tolerance for people who are different but that seems to have increased violence as individuals try to right what they see as wrong with violence.
Same here.Whatever you decide to do you are morally covered.Choosing keeping him for all that time you have done so far,is heroic already.Best wishes.
Quoting unenlightened
I suspect Tom could become a "soldier" too under some circumstances and for his own reasons.And fight like a lion.
And i suspect that these reasons are way more important and worth more than the reasons for those actual soldiers fight for.I would prefer more "Toms" than soldiers in this world.
I am pushing it and figure when two weeks is up I will have to speak with the property manager. I can now prove my intentions and progress. We have his case transferred to the local Senior and Disabled Services and had an interview and now we are waiting for another interview that might get him closer to housing.
Let me tell you I think I bit off more than I can chew. Dealing with someone who has the brain damage he has is challenging. In the beginning, I thought it was just a stroke but I spoke with his sister in another state and learned the dent in his forehead is the result of a blow to his head that damaged his right frontal lobe. That means a lack of self-control and behavior problems. We went into a fast food place and the person at the counter was a little bizarre and he totally flipped out! He said the person was a man dressed as a woman and went on about the bible. I got him out of there as fast as possible. Now I see directing him to the White Bird and the Service Station is not going to work because if people are different he flips out and has to flea. Both the places where he can help have many strange people hanging around.
The night shelter puts people on the floor and he can not get off the floor without a chair and chairs are not allowed in the room. The stroke has caused him post-stroke fatigue which means he falls asleep in the afternoon and the group sleep places have strict rules about when people can enter and when they can sleep.
Our only hope is to get him into a special program for disabled people and that could take months. We could have killer freezing nights before that happens. And leaving on his own reduces his ability to function. On the other hand, I might kill him first. Only kidding, but his religious and political ideas are the total opposite of mine. I let him watch whatever TV shows he wants to watch, like letting a kid watch cartoons so the child can be ignored, and I have to leave the room because I can not tolerate the 700 Club and Fox channel. God is preparing me for sainthood with this person. My reaction to what he thinks, and likes, is as bad as his reactions to what he does not like, only I can hold my tongue and leave the room.
I am torn but I am kind of glad a property manager can say he has to go. I just wish he had a good place to go to.
I hear what you are saying. However, as I learn more, I wish my path had not crossed with his. I thought this was going to be a quick fix. As I just explained to Pantagruel, this is not going to be a quick fix. On the other hand, it is a darn good thing I did step in because important steps have been taken that could not have happened if I had not stepped in.
However now I think I have to take things to the political level. I don't know how we can do it but we seriously need safe shelters for disabled people. Homelessness kills many people every year and the elderly are especially at risk. We have people in wheelchairs and people with cancer and people brain issues living and dying on the streets. It is not just bums and druggies out of there. What kind of civilization ignores the needy?
When the Nasis started taking away the Jews citizens ignored what was happening. We are ignoring what is happening too. I am sure your concern about the rules surely comes down to human values. You put the rules first and I think we should put human values first. How might I better bridge with those who put the rules first?
I am soo thankful for your understanding and help. What is happening is not what I expected. All the simple fixes are not working. I thought I could immediately get him into the shelter program, then I remembered they put people on the floor and he can not get up and down without a chair to lean on and chairs are not allowed. He is a nice person but to my surprise a nice person with a brain injury worse than a stroke. This very nice, well-dressed, social person can flip out in two seconds. That is, his good behavior is dependent on his environment and that means he will not do well standing in a line of homeless people with no social skills and who do not fit his idea of what a person should be. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. The problem is much worse than I thought it was. Because of the brain damage, his good behavior in the Senior Center, is very different from when he saw a man made up like a woman at a fast food place. A line of troubled people such as the ones where he might get help, make him flee like a person running out of a burning building. He does not see himself as one of them and can not tolerate being in the same space with them. I stress, we are talking about brain damage here. He can not be rational but reacts without thinking.
He becomes very tired in the afternoon and falls asleep, and there is no place where he can do this, unless we get him into a place for special needs people. This is not about willfulness. The stroke leads to a fatigue problem that is different from being tired and able to push through the feeling of tiredness. All of this means the shelters for most of the homeless will not work for him. I have volunteered in the winter shelters and they are horrifying. I have watched people struggle in wheelchairs, and people walk out into the snow with open sandals, trench foot is a common problem and can lead to amputations. My sister and I have seen terrible things and it takes very special people who can deal with it. I can not. I thought the man I am helping was an easy case.
If he could use a cell phone he never would have been in my home because then I could contact him for appointments. As we try to work through the system, we are using my cell phone and a helping agency for his mailing address. Can you believe this, you say someone is homeless and they ask for his phone number and address!
We most certainly have an organizational problem! To my horror, yesterday's interview was not the last stop to getting help. I don't know why but we are waiting for a second phone interview. I work and the chances of him and I being together when they call is very small. The young woman who interviewed us did not seem to know enough to help us. And it took a week of phone calls and finally going into the office to get that interview.
How are things organized where you are? We are not organized and we don't even seem to have a good understanding of what homeless means. I don't think most know how frustrating this is. It is so wrong to expect the people who seriously need help to get through the system. Even with experience and college education, trying to get through the system is extremely difficult. I would give up if I was doing this for myself.
You are onto something. We must not blame the bureaucrats for not doing their job because their jobs involve so much pain they can not survive them without the ability to turn off awareness of the pain. People become social workers thinking they want to help others, which means they feel the pain day after day until one day, it is gone. I knew a man who gave up being a police officer when he was called into one more child abuse case. He felt nothing and he did not want to be someone who could deal with child abuse and feel nothing, so he stopped being a police officer.
I have a 94-year-old Senior Companion cleint who was a case worker. She was given the most difficult mental cases. For the first year she could not sleep because she could not feel at peace with the reality of people's struggles. She considered quitting but finally, she did what you describe. She learned to put it in a box. I have to put the challenge of helping the man I am helping in a box so each day I am there 100% for my Senior Companion clients.
I am so aware of turning a blind eye to the suffering of others. I do feel guilty when I pretend someone
in need is not there. We have many beggars on our streets so this happens daily. To survive I just have to limit the people I engage with. That is why I become politically active from time to time. There is so much unmet human need out there that charitable organizations are not enough. Only the government is large enough organization to manage the problem, and the problem is increasing daily like global warming. This is overpopulation and I so regret religions that argue against the things we can do for birth control.
An extraordinary level of delusion is needed to assert this.
But too far off thread.
You did not create the circumstances that some people live in. You REALLY have to remind yourself that you are not responsible, WE ALL ARE. You are trying to hold your hands up to try to deflect some of the blows that are being rained down on some people. YOU ARE AT LEAST DOING THAT. Most people do less than you, a lot less than you, especially amongst those who DO have the power, position and wealth to make a significant difference. I fully agree that you should continue to try to get as much help as you can from ANY other group/organisation/network/individual you can, to try to alleviate some of the pressure on you. Even something as enigmatic as crowdfunding may be a source of help for you.
15,000 CHILDREN UNDER 5 years of age die EVERY DAY from preventable conditions such as hunger, curable/preventable disease etc. That's a Jewish holocaust EVERY YEAR! (15000x365=5475000).
Innocent children! We can't act like theists and say things like 'god works in mysterious ways.' But in truth, I think that only satisfies very few people. Probably only quite self-absorbed, narcissistic people.
We must try to do what people like you do and add our hands to your hands where and when we can.
It's very hard when we are trying to deflect waves coming towards people with our hands, but many hands make light work. You are a tiny row boat in an ocean of need, yet you will still try to pull one or two people out of the water, even risking yourself, falling into the water.
If there is a god and folks like you don't get into the heaven you imagine, then the vast majority of all who call themselves Christian or Moslem etc, etc ad nauseum, won't get in either, including most kings, queens, popes, priests, nuns, ministers, imams, guru's etc etc.
I like my grandmother's 3 rules better.
1. We respect everyone. It makes no difference if the other is a bum or the mayor because it is about our character. We are respectful people or we are not.
2. We protect the dignity of others.
3. We do everything with integrity
I just pulled a virtue card. Out of 52 virtues I pulled Generosity.
"Generosity is giving and sharing. It is giving freely because you want to, not with the idea of receiving a reward or a gift in return. Generosity is a quality of the spirit. It is an awareness that there is plenty for everyone. It is seeing an opportunity to share what you have and then giving just for the oy of giving. Generosity is one of the best ways to show love.
Signs of Success
I am practicing generosity when I...
Am thoughtful about the needs of others.
Notice when someone needs help.
Give freely without holding back.
Am willing to make sacrifices for others.
Use wisdom about sharing treasured belongings."
Ah ha, That last one could mean it is not wise for me to have someone in my home when that could lead to a problem for me.
Well, I do have thoughts along that line. I could just pray for everyone and make myself feel good without risking anything. Or I could argue why that doesn't work real well. And that IS behind why I started this thread and used the word "moral". It would be great if I could say a prayer and go on my way feeling that I have done all that needs to be done.
In a democracy, our laws and institutions, are based on what we believe and I believe what some people believe is part of the problem. God did not build Noah's ark and maybe He doesn't take care of everything, so we may need to identify problems and hopefully come to a consensus on how to resolve them.
Is it moral to leave disabled people on the streets to die?
Your point is made and now I have to act on it. I have emailed two local programs for people with brain damage. This looks like a good starting point.
I am a little excited because the homeless problem is so complex and huge, that I couldn't find a good resource for homeless people in general, but when this was reworded as a brain problem, there are places to turn. So if I begin with them, perhaps more could be done for those who are homeless because of mental issues. They need extra help because they don't have the cognitive ability to access the help that they are qualified to have.
My sister helps these people in another city. Her people are dying on the streets and we finally have a law to record deaths resulting from homelessness. We are not doing a good job of resolving the problems because we do not have a good understanding of them. There is so much to do. I wish I were thirty and had the energy to do more.
Attempt some crowdfunding and perhaps you could post the details here and perhaps some TPF members would contribute to a support fund. I would.
If I lived in Oregon I could help more, but I live in Scotland, so I do what I can when I can here and from here.
Even so, we could bemoan such circumstances - it's stressful to say the least. Any system that puts people in such dilemmas needs to be put under the microscope because the problem won't go away by itself. @schopenhauer1 might have a thing or two to say about this from an antinatalist point of view: being forced to play the game of life full of dilemmas/trilemmas/n-lemmas like the one the OP is in is immoral and I'm being as positive as possible when I say that.
Bingo. Life itself can be said to be immoral from the start.
So you've hit the bullseye! :up:
Question: Are antintalists oversensitive? On the flip side, do natalists have, as Hermione Granger says to Ronald Weasley, "the emotional range of a teaspoon"?
And we complain about cold, heartless logic.
Wrong question.. Rather, when is it ok to ever assume someone else needs to experience X bad experiences because you have a notion for them of what one should be able to tolerate and deal with?
Also, being that this world always has conflicts, it is morally disqualifying as it is built into the actual framework. Theres no way around it.
Everything hinges on the word "assume" I suppose. I believe there's actually a novel based on people making wrong assumptions about one another; the result is, you guessed it, disaster! If not, it looks a story plot Hollywood might be interested in (romantic tragicomedy).
Malus Deus?
Its simply a political move. Someone envisions another person continuing on the current order and experiencing the current order. They voted yes to it. They voted for that other person.
Si, si! That you politicize antinatalism, probably other issues as well, hasn't escaped my notice. Perhaps because people's lives & happiness are at stake, they depend on, in a significant way, who calls the shots.
More widgets, more widgets. We need more widgets. Continuation of life is a political position as is its rejection. Vote nay. Conservatives see injustices with liberal policy. Liberals see injustices in conservative policy.
Can people find other ways to give their life meaning besides creating more wants and needs instantiated in yet another person?
So you believe that this is all politics! Is there a more fundamental point of origin, a radix, of our problems.
Did you know? Some say "suffering, what suffering?" Others, in the same friggin' room, go "this is hell!"
[quote=Eddie Izzard]One of them is wrong![/quote]
Earth is too big!
The fundamental problem is baseline striving (necessary) suffering) and contingent negative experiences. The solution is quietude. Dont replicate it. The error is replicating it.
But as to politics yes, people have a vision. The child is the means to that vision being carried out.
Parents get to fill their lives with meaning. Relatives get to extend their family. The tribe/society gets more workers and replication of culture.
Meanwhile ... what do we do? Avoid talking about the elephant in the room (dukkha)?
Not so optimistic. Besides, a non-sequitor.
Quoting Agent Smith
People just dont connect it with birth itself.
The only reason Judy married John was because she never met Jack?
Would she know the value of Jack?
Thank you. I started to do that but on second thought that may not be a good solution unless we first created a nonprofit organization and had a clear plan about what we want and how much it would cost.
My granddaughter is rather annoyed with me for acting as though the person I am trying to help is the most important person, and she has a point. She works at the shelter and deals with the homeless every day. We are experiencing a housing and human crisis. Disabled people get an income of less than $900 a month and just to rent a bedroom is $600 to $700 dollars. That is why they are on the street and there is a lot of them! The man I am trying to help is more physically capable than those who are in wheelchairs. I assume many of the street people also have mental problems. I was not wanting to help everyone, but how just is it for me to try to get my person to the head of the line, in front of everyone else?
It has been almost two weeks and that is the limit most property managers set on having a guest. This is where I stop allowing him to spend the night unless the property manager says it is okay for him to stay longer. He was pretty depressed when he left this morning because he knows he can not depend on me as he depended on a woman who passed away. If he could find another woman who could use some help and has an extra bedroom that would be wonderful. He is limited but he does try to be helpful and he expresses concern for the other person and a lot of appreciation. He is ideal for the right woman.
And this is why I pulled away from working with the homeless. There are just some people I can not stand to leave on the streets, and the only thing I can do is pretend they do not exist. My granddaughter is right. He is just the person who got through my wall of protection by being at the Senior Center and looking like one of "us" not one of "them". It he looked and acted like the other homeless people, I would have avoided him. He got through my wall of denial that what is happening is a real horror of unmet human needs. nailed in on the head. To cope with some things we must be able to block out the pain.
She might've if only she's been given the chance. There's more to it than just that though!
I so much appreciate your posts and I will address the state legislature about the moral dilemma, especially when a mother is evicted for helping an adult child. When our laws go against family values, they are wrong.
I have a 1940 Oregon Family Law book. Back in the day, we held family responsible for family. The responsibility did not end when someone became 18. The responsibility included the extended family and when people did not do the responsible thing of caring for family, the person could be fined. In the past, it was family I had to put on the streets. It is not homosexuals ruining family values, but industry, landlords, and government.
I will back off Athena. I don't want it to seem like I am trying to manipulate your heartstrings to compel you to keep doing what you have always done. You have battled in support of those which our current society ignores and discards, you have done enough, regardless of what you decide to do next.
This indeed is more or less how it works, based on my knowledge and working with people in the mental area. Im not a psychologist either, but this this is maybe better because I would had all sort of misconceptions about the mind! :grin:
Only, you see, "staying sane" is an illusion. It's a trick that the mind plays to us, to apparently avoid pain and thinking of undesirable things. One cannot be sane when one is blocking (suppressing) undesirable facts, events and things in general. This is an aberration. And it's the cause of mental illnesses.
So, you are maybe writing for the same reason I do: for the pleasure of writing! :grin:
Hypergraphia, graphorrhea in my case. Not so in your case of course! Keep writin' - practise, I hear, makes perfect.
Right. It all has to do with emotions. And behind them are thoughts. And behind them is mind. That's why so many soldiers --"who do all the dirty work", as you say-- come back from wars mentally damaged.
Yes, by dirty work I mean precisely that! On point mon ami!
I hear veterans aren't treated all that well - no surprises there because how many of 'em is the government gonna pander to? There are quite literally thousands upon thousands of ex-armymen out there ; some are on the streets, others are alcoholics, most never recover from the trauma. Too bad, eh?
Really bad, yes.
The latest film I think I watched on the subject --a very good one-- was "Thank You for Your Service". You might have seen it yourself too. If not, check
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thank_You_for_Your_Service_(2017_film).
It's about "posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depicting U.S. soldiers who try to adjust to civilian life." And this was a "mild" story. Earlier films I watched we much more "ugly".
Oh please, I have found you validating and motivating. And this is not like the past. In the past, everything seemed manageable but now the problems have exploded. My community has done so much to resolve homelessness and the problem keeps getting bigger. However, you put me on a good path, of researching and believing I can do some good by testifying at the Oregon Legislature after the first of the year. I am really excited about what I might do.
I am reminded of a geology professor's explanation of exponential growth. That last doubling of the population makes manageable problems unmanageable and no one saw it coming because it seems to happen all at once. If we didn't have such a severe housing shortage we wouldn't have such a serious problem with homelessness. If the person I am trying to help could rent a bedroom for $400 there would be no problem. Many homeless people have a monthly income. It just isn't enough to pay the high rents. We don't have the land for more houses and the cost of building is extremely high. :lol: I don't know if a math lesson would help the legislature understand the problem. That is not the emotional story that motivates people to take action.
I also may have found a way to help the gentleman. Well, we have made a lot of progress, and doing this has been a learning experience. A huge barrier is communication! Every organization has its own terminology and acronyms and they just assume they are making sense when us outsiders don't have a clue what they are talking about. That is a problem that can be fixed without spending any money. Just stop using that insider talk when speaking with someone who is not an insider. And like a miracle, people are finally giving us written information that is useful.
I need to ponder if I can do that written information more effectively so every agency has all of it and a person asking for help can have that information from day one. For sure the 2 pages of rentals from 2 years ago, are not useful today and a person has to question if the bureaucrats have a good understanding of reality when they pass out useless information. :lol: You begin by saying the person is homeless and they ask for the person's address. You explain the person has brain damage and they want a phone number. They will gladly send information to a person's email and s/he can print it. Like they seem to have no clue of what it means to be homeless and brain damaged and without resources.
I have no doubt about that and believe the above quote to be quite accurate. You seem a tour de force.
I just wish others with power and determination would rally to you. Look at the women of Iran right now!
They have had enough of backwards misogynistic shit from religious antiques, and they are protesting and burning their hijabs. When you look at the protesting crowds, there are as many men out supporting the women as there are women. 6 people killed so far but this has not stopped the people. I so hope this grows into a serious challenge to the horrible regime in Iran.
Quoting Athena
An irresistible movement for serious and permanent change can also grow exponentially as well if people have had enough of injustices such as homeless in a land of plenty such as the USA. People get tired of lining the pockets of greedy landlords whilst their tenants live under rules which the landlords don't live under. The few can only steal the cream for so long. If you give people few reasons to live, then their fear reduces more and more, especially their fear of retribution if they revolt. They have little to lose but the controlling few have a great deal to lose.
Quoting Athena
Couldn't agree more, once you get past all the trained monkeys, and the strange sounds and movements they make to distract you from the organ grinder, you reach the truth of the matter and can then clearly reveal how unfair and unfit for purpose the system is. Then you and your supporters can demand change, on threat of political deselection/destruction/removal of those currently in power.
Quoting Athena
As I typed, the distracting monkeys are well trained. They are perfectly aware that their system is front loaded with as much BS info as possible and as many 'up the hill and down again and around and around we go' pathways, to compel most applicants to go away and stop bothering them for help.
They know EXACTLY how to help each person but many local authorities would much rather spend their budget on maintaining the surrounding and services they provide for the 'well off,' people, not the challenged, needy people they consider a drain on their resources. The only hope for such challenged people is people like you!
Funny guy. Didn't know about him. Watched a couple of videos ...
:grin:
Today I am facing the reality of possibly being evicted. and I am sacred. I am not sure things have come to that, but neighbors have warned me management was investigating. A decision to evict me can be made by people who do not know me and have not spoken with me. Not that long ago we knew each other and we could discuss the rules and if exceptions can be made. This made a huge difference in our moral decisions because we were aware of how we affected each other's lives and we felt for each other. Today feelings have been taken out of the equation. The decisions are totally impersonal. That difference has everything to do with our liberty and morality. Total strangers making decisions that affect our lives as much as an eviction affects a person's life, with no communication and no feelings could be thought of as the biblical beast. I am not Christian, but that the beast is a pretty good analogy of the power over us and how our liberty and personal power are being crushed.
Under that beast, family can not help family because of government-controlled privacy laws. The gentleman I am trying to help has a sister and a cousin who want to help, but privacy law prevents them from speaking for their brother and learning from the bureaucrats if there is any way to help him. We have made laws that destroy the family and make everyone dependent on the government. This is what we defended our democracy against in WWII and then we adopted Germany's model of bureaucracy and education for technology. We are now the mechanical society we defended our democracy against.
So what if people are dying on the streets because they have trouble functioning in today's world.
How is this different from rounding up the Jews and citizens not daring to resist the dictates of the government? I want to stress this is about our relationship with our government, our humanity, and morality and liberty.
I am considering suicide might make my life meaningful if it gets attention to the problem we have created. When I think of all the people who lost their lives defending our democracy and what things have come too, and how their sacfrice means nothing if we do not turn around and reestablish individiual liberty and power.
It's that bad, eh?
A bit extreme and unprovable if it will have the effect you desire. Although the cause is noble suicide is not the way.
Quoting Deus
I found out things are not exactly as I thought they were. I don't know what to think now but some young people seem to be better than those they are replacing. There is a greater liberalness. When I was finally able to make phone contact with the important people they approved of me adding the gentleman I am helping to my housing. It appears the rules have changed along with people having a more liberal attitude. I would like to know how to research this. Like when did the rules change and what motivated the change? Was it our housing crisis and being overwhelmed with homeless people that lead to rules being changed?
Is the generation that is now taking the jobs more liberal than those before them and are my moral concerns unfounded fear of change? I would love to talk with the ancient Greek philosophers about my moral concerns. But that could be a little contentious. Plato's republic is the model of Utopias that failed, real and fictional ones. I am not the only one suspicious of government having too much power. In the 1830's Tocqueville wrote of Christian democracies becoming despots. There is Orwell and Huxley. And news talks about the popular distrust of government.
But the last couple of days have calmed me down. I am getting what I asked for and I am not sure I want it. :lol: I think I will be meek for a while and consider I may not know enough to be too sure of myself. And thanks for the replies. I wanted to know what the reaction would be because I was not sure of my thinking being good logic. My ego likes the idea of dying for a good cause but that does not make it a good thing to do.
For sure I hope the women win the fight for their rights. We burned our bras and I am so thankful the danger to us was not as it is for the women of backward countries.
Quoting universeness
This subject is very frightening because I think the US government has overextended itself. We are reaching our debt limit when war and problems caused by global warming threaten us. At the same time, our economy appears to be spinning out of control. This could be a different subject. For bloody sure, the increase in the minimum wage has not helped anyone as inflation keeps them down. We used to laugh at Russia because we heard many people jam into a home but here we are with people living together in their struggle to survive. As I said above the rules have changed allowing unrelated people to share housing. We must do more for people who need help but I don't know how we can. Things are out of control.
Quoting universeness
Okay, I tried to communicate to the council on aging that reliance on technology is locking people out of medical care and services. The man I am trying to help is locked out because he can not use a cell phone. I struggle to use a cell phone and with forms and conversations based on specialized jargon. I am having trouble getting blood work done because talking to a robot over the phone is too frustrating! I throw up my hands and think so what if I drop dead? At least then I don't have to deal with the barriers to getting services. I am old. I think this reliance on technology is just rude. It sure makes me feel powerless. The problem is not the technology. I am walking because of medical technology. I love technology but how it is being used can be a problem.
Quoting universeness
I would not say their intention is to lock people out, but that is the result. Well, my sister was a bureaucrat and she does not hold a high opinion of government workers who can not relate to those they serve and intentionally ignore phone calls while they socialize with each other. But I think many of them are overwhelmed with heavy workloads. When the bureaucrat I had to speak with finally called back she sounded like a very nice person. We have communication problems that is for sure!!!
Have you saw some of the mobile phone footage coming out of Iran, such as the two I posted recently in the shout box, in my 6th post on this page here
ALL POWER TO THESE YOUNG BRAVE PEOPLE! Almost 200 people have lost their lives so far to this vile theistic regime.
Quoting Athena
Similar to words I typed previously, one set of hands, held out, opened and pushed forwards can do little to protect individuals from a cold blowing wind but if many other hands joined you then things can get better. It's very old but it's still very true..... UNITED, WE STAND! DIVIDED, WE FALL!
Quoting Athena
No shame in seeking help, others accept your help, you can get help too. I now act as a barrier between my mother and the outside world. I deal with all authorities, medical, financial etc on her behalf but I do so based on her instructions, her directions, her wishes. I deal with the robots for her and those humans in call centres that can hardly speak English (no fault of theirs of course, just the usual profiteers using the cheapest labour force on offer), as I am fully able to do that. Don't be too pround Athena, get the help you are entitled to, the same help you are trying to get for others. Family/friends/neighbours/help groups/charities surely someone can help you here. In Scotland we have some fantastic organisations like 'Age concern,' 'Citizens Advice Bureau,' 'Alzheimer's society,' 'Local council, home help support,' etc, etc. You must have the equivalent of some of these.
Quoting Athena
So are the poor sods they are supposed to be helping! Perhaps they are not overwhelmed with heavy workloads but overwhelmed by their unfair circumstances. I absolutely agree, that there are many good people working in the social care system but there are many f***wits as well! There is no question that they are over worked, under paid and way under-resourced and the real culprits are the politicians in power. The pressure must come from the people who must move 'en masse' to pressure those in power and demand significant improvement to the social care system, on threat of removal from power.
I am so sorry to hear that you are possibly facing eviction and I am danger of being evicted too. The circumstances of my own is that the landlord where I am has left the country. I didn't know that he was subletting from an agency, and he had not been paying the rent to them recently. The real owner wishes to have the house back and, originally we were all meant to move in August but are still there paying rent. I am looking for accommodation on a daily basis and it is so hard to find anything apart from shabby overpriced tiny rooms from rogue landlords, who don't even give proper tenancy contracts. At the beginning I was confident about finding somewhere but have been panicking more in the last couple of weeks.
It is rather ironic that both of us who were writing about your concern about a man at the beginning of the thread are fearing eviction and potential homelessness. My general feeling is that life has become much harder in the last few years and, increasingly, people care less about others. So many people are struggling, the gulf between the rich and the poor is increasing and, often, people are being treated as mere numbers.
Anyway, I am trying to keep my inner strength and I hope that you keep strong. I hope that you don't get evicted and I will continue looking for somewhere because I think that the owner and agency will give myself and the others here a certain amount of time to find somewhere.
I would really like to know what you mean about all models being wrong. Time and again, I am realizing things are the same and not the same. For example, we all want to think we are caring people and for some, that means being socialist and for others, socialism is the great evil. But what are we talking about when we use labels? Many things appear to be different shades of the same thing but we are under the illusion that we have no agreement.
The Greeks didn't have all these labels and they argued about values and truths. Have we created a communication problem that might be resolved?
So true and you have experience with people who have cognitive problems! If you and I find the system is going against us, how much worse it must be for people with cognitive problems? You know what to do but people like the person I am helping, do not. We think of those people as the problem, but when we experience the problem ourselves we realize something has gone very wrong. I thought it would be easy to get this man into a rented bedroom because he has an income, but to my horror, bedrooms are hundreds of dollars more than the last time I checked.
It isn't just that we have a housing crisis but dealing with bureaucrats has become much harder. It is like since the pandemic everything has gotten worse.
You keep me aware that this is not just in the US. Did our faith in technology lead us into these problems? Or is the problem overpopulation and real shortages of land and timber to build homes? I think many of us are in shock. Our quality of life seems seriously threatened. What you said about those in control of the rentals is frightening. On top of everything else is worry about being scammed and taken advantage of. We have something called Craigslist and people are claiming to have rentals and are taking people's money for fees when they have no rental but are just cheating people. I swear we did not have this problem before. The shortage of housing has led to people being victimized because they hurry up and pay those fees afraid someone else will get the rental before they do. They are paying without meeting the scammer or seeing the rental.
Like I just said to Jack Cummins, how did things get so bad! I swear before the pandemic, I could call my Senior and Disability Services case worker and she answered her phone and in 5 minutes the problem would be resolved. Now no one answers the phone and calls are not returned in a timely manner. When I studied public policy and administration at the U of O it was said when someone is having a problem keeping up with the demands of a job, hire another person. Now the focus has shifted from getting the job done to cutting costs.
We were lucky and got a great doctor who has a great social worker and she is aware of the phone problem and will use her position of being inside the system to get the Senior and Disability Services to do what should have been done two weeks ago. In the meantime we are taking steps to add the gentleman to my renter's contract and the division of housing assistance has okayed him staying in my home so I am no longer in danger of losing my own housing, However, this may be turning into more of a commitment than I wanted to make. I thought this was going to be a temporary situation. My apartment is too small for me and it sure is not enough space for two people over a long period of time.
What can I say but this has been a learning experience and EVERYONE is helping me think through what I will say to the state legislature when there will be a public hearing after the beginning of the next year. The only thing I feel sure about is these people should not be left on the streets to fend for themselves!!! We must not allow the neglect of our children and challenged people and the elderly. Yes, we have many services and assistance programs but they are overwhelmed and the needs are not being met. On the good side, I have been allowed to help him without fear of eviction and in the beginning, I didn't think that was possible.
Now my concern has shifted from fear of eviction to a question of how long will this last. He likes Fox News and the 700 Club and I can't stand those shows. My computer is right next to the TV and he sleeps on the floor in the living room. I am trying to think of a way of rearranging my home so I can stay in my bedroom and he can do his thing in the living room. I hate waking him in the morning by getting on my computer and then he turns on the TV and talks to me and I can't focus on the forum. Perhaps I am spoiled because of having a home all to myself. Around the world, people live with so much less and perhaps I should work on being the person I want to be instead of being discontent with a situation I made happen.
A socialist? I advocated for the homeless in the 80's to get homeless people out of my home and here I am again.
Quoting universeness
Yes, together we can do more and we can create a better reality and that is what democracy is about. Hum, what philosophers might I read to have a better understanding of working together?
Okay, go on. You are being very tantalizing.
Years ago I became aware of a bureaucratic effort to get staff to do more independent thinking and problem-solving after a long period of control from the top, making workers afraid of doing independent thinking. This is a home issue.
What is the best way to Utopia? Liberty and power of the individual or autocratic direction from the top?
Industry, Christianity, and the military are autocratic. What is left to manifest liberty and power of the individual?
We used to laugh at Russia for its failures resulting from too much red tape and now, in the US, nothing can be done without the red tape. We have achieved this power of government and everything is breaking down.
It's not easy, that's all! I dunno how we can show the fly the way out of the bottle. Maybe that's precisely what we shouldn't be do, oui mon chéri?
In the UK there are many, many more unoccupied properties than there are homeless. Some are run down properties that could be given to the homeless for free and as long as they have water, electric and they are made sound against the weather, people could group together and 'fix them up,' themselves. Other unoccupied properties are owned by the rich abroad, who buy them for investment purposes to have 'assets' abroad. Sometimes it's even foreign governments/politicians/oligarchs that own them as a way to 'launder' their money.
This is the rich man's world we live/exist/struggle in, these are the games of the rich. The money trick, supply and demand. Keep the poor masses down and needy and this will provide a cheap labour force, military and police malleable fodder and a very large uneducated, politically ignorant populous.
Keep all their services underfunded and understaffed. Play the blame culture. Blame it on pandemics, blame it on your rich enemies like Putin. Blame it on the immigrants, blame it on market forces, blame it on lazy ungrateful workers, blame it on militant unions, blame it on over population, blame it on a shortage of housing, blame it on whatever bullshit excuse you want.
Meantime the rich and powerful who are actually, fully to blame, can get on with enjoying their wealth, power and status whilst the majority suffer.
Socialist? Humanist? Capitalist sycophant? The questions that make the difference are.
1. Who are you?
2. What do you want?
I am a socialist, a humanist, and I damn the nefarious rich and powerful to destruction.
I want economic parity for all humans, from cradle to grave.
A pox on ...
:snicker:
You need to finish what you start!
I can't do everything now can I? Nevertheless, a good point mon ami, a good point.
It is important to think about how the various people, especially those who have 'cognitive' problems are affected by changes which are occurring. At times, when I struggle with online communication and forms I begin to doubt my own cognitive abilities, so what must it be like for people who are really unable to read and write. Some have support and some don't.
Whether it is due to cognitive or other difficulties, it may be that an underclass is developing, of people who just are a bit outside the parameters of the mainstream. It is probably not an entirely new development but as life gets more digitalised and 'faster' there may be greater exclusion of those who find it hard to compete in the fight for resources. In the case of the most downtrodden, they may be less able to argue for their rights and be cast outside of agendas for arguing for their rights, and be a silent minority on the periphery or edge of society.
That is the history of the world and the future of humanity until its extinction, good luck changing it without fueling the fire.
"Economic parity for all" is the biggest pipe dream in human history. However, I think you and I would agree that the playing field could be leveled a bit. A guaranteed nice standard of living for the working girl would be a nice start. But as long as we continue to elect these treasonous cowards (left and right), we get what we deserve
Unfortunately, in my opinion, you seem borderline psychotic concerning these issues. I'll tell you from experience, I thought very similar ideas in the past, until I realized it was merely a recipe for my personal misery. I didn't like it so I changed my tune. I have no advise other than to say be happy and make your life good, stop worrying about things outside of your direct control. I say this all as a friend.
Certain philosophers from Socrates to Nietzsche explained the gross deficienies of democracy, while the more collectivist philosophers like Hegel and Marx potrayed it as the salvation of mankind.
Thanks for your friendly advice. It's a pity that those who wish for a better world and remain confident that it can and will be achieved by humans and the human race are TO YOU, borderline psychotic, or you at least think I may be.
I think this speaks more to your own mental state than it does to mine.
If you have held similar ideas to me in the past, then it's a pity you were unable to maintain them. Perhaps a personal strength is something that will return to you one day and then you will become again, a more significant part of the solutions we need.
I know this may be difficult for you to fully accept but in general, and by far, I am happy and have no personal misery, such as that you describe so negatively affected you. My life is good, and it is part of my function and responsibility, to influence, as much as I can, those issues that you think are unassailable and which YOU have personally surrendered to, using your excuse 'out of my control,' and exasperated typing's such as Quoting Merkwurdichliebe
and
Quoting Merkwurdichliebe
I am glad that you can still find some embers in yourself that still invokes your support for:
Quoting Merkwurdichliebe
Perhaps you could rekindle some of your early strengths by listening a little more to certain songs like:
For what it's worth to you Jack, your 'cognitive abilities,' based on your typing's, here on TPF, seem pretty solid to me.
I think that 'From each according to their ability, to each according to their need,' is still a fundamental imperative. But perhaps we need to add ', their freewill, and democratic consent,' after the word 'ability.'
Yeah, :lol: thanx for that suggestion, should cheer everyone up!
Shhh! I design ships that float for only and exactly 5 seconds! :lol:
Such a short but bright, flashing, spectacular life of colour and adventure before some freakin iceberg sinks yer ship (designed and built by the typical flawed god that is our one and only deus, Agent Smith)
That means liberty, doesn't it? But I am watching a show about a man who works with the homeless and it is so discouraging because the homeless in this show have lost all hope and trust in others. However, he rescues them and sends them home to family. My sister has done that too. I got a man I helping in touch with his family.
I think we are putting our faith in technology instead of family and that leaves people dependent on the state and that is not working as these people get so lost and become like feral cats. So liberty can lead to bad things. I am struggling with these thoughts. Can you help me? How can we bring out the best in people and reduce social problems?
By adding to the solutions, by reducing the problems, sticking your finger in the hole in the sea wall, if you can help stop the flood or help clean up afterwards.
By each of us feeling/taking the responsibility and having the empathy to do what you can when you can, just like you exemplify every day.
Out of little acorns, big Oak tree's grow. The only help I think the folks on TPF can offer you is textual/human support unless they stay near you. Perhaps even some financial support, if you can get involved in some kind of crowdfunding/fund raising efforts which would directly support the local help initiatives you are trying to participate in.
I was watching a show about Chile recently and a woman was trying to feed 70 local kids every day using mostly her own limited pay she gets as a nurse and some local charity she was getting a little help and money from. Again, the likes of she, you and the schoolgirls in Iran are what helps convince me that there is great hope for the future of the human race.
We are put into a treadmill on top of a thresher. If we actually try to get off the treadmill, we only get torn in the thresher. The low level annoyance of existing varies from mild to extreme and everything in between. This existence is thus morally disqualifying.
I do not agree with hating the rich because that is like hating someone because of their color. However, I think we all could be improved with knowledge of how to play the economic power game. How does it work? I wonder if we do not teach high school youths about economics because those in control really do not want the masses to know. Or maybe it is because most high school students are nowhere near ready to comprehend economics and struggle just to have some awareness of personal finances. Or maybe no knows enough to make economics a part of the high school curriculum?
Some high schools gave students a little knowledge of how to start a business and we have volunteers that provide information to people wanting to start a business such as the Small Business Bureau and Junior Chamber of Commerce.
The rich have provided jobs and built the economy of cities and I am very glad we have these people. Maybe the whole game is not fair but we are darn lucky to have people who do start industries and run them.
In 1917 teachers were proud to teach democracy and about uniting to get things done. That would be fraternities, granges, and unions. For me, everything comes back to education. How should we prepare our young for citizenship?
Why should we create people that must be united in the first place. What right do we have to create new people? Legitimate question. Go back to the root. First principles. Why we make others work, go through the treadmill of life. What right we have to make others do this. All people have in this forum as a response to these questions is snark and sarcasm..the refuge of those without a rational response.
And those who do have support are nicely dressed and well-mannered and can do simple jobs. Oh dear, I am feeling emotional about this as I struggle with my present circumstance of trying a help a man with brain damage. It is obvious he comes from a good family and does not identify with the common street person who is unlikely to have a supportive family. With his sister and cousin who live far away, we trying to provide a support system but here I am again needing to talk to people in person and no one is in the office. Our systems are running against giving these people the support they need.
Yes, you are on to something, because those who have cognitive and emotional problems are "people who just are a bit outside the parameters of the mainstream". Most likely they never had a supportive family and know only poverty, do not how to think middle class. I worked for an organization that educates and trains cognitively challenged people and also the homeless in general and there is a huge difference between those who had supportive families and those who did not. Those who had supportive families have all the benefits society can give these people. They usually have government support in the form of monthly checks. They are often put in foster homes for adults. They get all the training and social actives that help them fit into society. This is a point I really need to make when I address the Oregon legislature. Thank you for how you worded the problem, the words I bolded.
I have said this before, your thinking is so valuable to the whole of society, and I hope you find your niche. Perhaps working for a politician who wants to solve the problems. You have the insight and wording they need to understand the problem. You are a bridge between those who have only a mainstream awareness and those who don't.
Yes and let us have a symposium to talk about these different philosophies! Hum, this forum has repeatedly made me want to go to the coast and invite the public to discuss philosophy. In the inland city, people are too busy for symposiums but in the coastal city, life is slower and there are many retired people. This time, I am seeing perhaps a more viable to do a symposium. There is a community center at the coastal city nearest to me. I have time to visit there before the snow storms come and crossing the mountains is a bad idea.
I love your grouping of the two sides to the issue.
Man, when I was young and full of energy, I was also ignorant and bored out of my mind. Now my head is so full and I can get the meaning of what the people here are saying, and I am so excited about what is possible, but I don't have the courage nor the energy to act on what is possible. :sad:
I always try to be careful when I damn, unlike the gods, described by theists. I stated the 'nefarious' rich as opposed to all rich people. I have some space for the 'least they could do,' altruistic, philanthropic rich.
Hating a person's colour is irrational and imo, inaccurate as racism is much more based on fear of difference and dislike of anything outside of your experienced, daily culture. You can change your economic policy, much easier than you can change your physical colour or your cultural influences/indoctrinations.
Quoting Athena
The money trick is well understood and not difficult to explain but you are correct that those who hold power wish to maintain as large a population of ignorant people as is within their power.
The nefarious rich, need such a resource, to service them and to enhance/maintain their profits.
Quoting Athena
I disagree, the jobs were always there, as were and are the industries and resources and ingenuity.
I prefer 'these people,' you describe to be decent people and if they are nefarious, then we have the state of affairs we have now. The problems started as a residue from our time in the wilds. The process and means by which the first nefarious few were allowed to become an established malignant infestation, is simply the story of how the first nefarious King/Queen/Messiah/chief/community leader came to be, and allowing such to become established and prosper, was the greatest mistake in human history.
I blame patriarchy for the division of those who have power and those who do not. It is my understanding matriarchies have a family order but not the hierarchy of power and authority that men seem to prefer. I have often been surprised by the male concern of ownership. A few things are special to me but when I live with others almost everything is ours.
You mention a residue from our time in the wilds. I assume you accept evolution. How about male and female differences? I think we all agree other animals are ruled by their hormones. How about people? Do you think they are also ruled by their hormones?
The establishment of nefarious group leaders is a bit of a fascination to me. Greeks did not conquer the world as the Romans did. We seem to think the Romans were superior, but really? Intellectually at least Athens was superior. I have read the Greeks and those living in Celtic territory got along just fine, but the Romans enslaved everyone.
One of my favorite professors was a sociologist and he gave us a textbook explaining we live by social agreements. Instinctively we desire to be accepted and it is nice if we are also valued. We can neither if we do not understand the social rules and comply with them. We sure can not have liberty without a willingness to know and follow social rules. Even chimpanzees require following social rules. Social animals depend on each other and they have social rules. If a chimp refuses to obey the rules, the chimp is pushed to the outer circle where it is more likely to be eaten by a predatory, or the misbehaving chimp may be driven away and forced to seek a new group it if survives long enough to do that.
Tribes share a mythology and Joseph Campbell said the purpose of a mythology is to prepare the young to be adult members of the tribe. This is vital to our mental health and it is devastating when we invade an aboriginal territory and destroy their way of life.
Please question what I have said and I will try again to give you a rational response.
I immediately flashed back to a time when I felt like an infected boil on the face of the earth. To clarify what I said, I don't think I could have felt any lower. I had no self-esteem and no sense of power and I unintentionally hurt a young woman who felt just as low as I did. When I learned I had hurt her I was shocked, because I didn't think I had the power to do that.
At another time also during the 1970 recession. I had begun hoarding and was not eating or heating my home. I lost so much weight, I had to cheat the scales when I sold plasma by wearing very heavy clothing. My daughter questioned my behavior and it shocked me. I slumped to the floor in front of the cold wood stove and realized I had forgotten how to think middle class. I was afraid if I used what we had there would be no more, like the crazy people we heard of from the Great Depression.
I think my point is, I was not always as self-confident as I am today. The girls in Iran are caught up in the history of their time, as I was when I thought I was a hippie, but during the recession when people were losing their homes and businesses, we were not united in an effort to improve things. We were alone as we slowly sank to the bottom.
Shit, I don't know what I am trying to say but you have made me think.
Wow, I love you guys and the thinking you make me do. :heart:
I personally don't think that male lineage produces fewer nasty leaders than female lineage.
Do you think, Cleopatra, Elizabeth I, Catherine the Great, Maggie Thatcher etc are any better than horrors like Trump? It has always seemed mere anthropocentrism to me to assign gods a gender. Evil has no gender Imo. Evil is just base behaviour which has its origins in the 'rules of the jungle,' we evolved from. It looks quite evil to me, when a lion kills a small, weak, slow, unwell zebra and then rips it to shreds and eats it. If a human did that to a lamb in a field, in front of others, we would think of that human as a savage, a throwback, not welcome in our world. Evil has got nothing to do with woo woo gods and demons, it's just humans behaving in ways we NOW CONSIDER, is somewhere in the range of unacceptable/criminal to completely savage/horrific.
Quoting Athena
I consider evolution to be scientific fact.
Quoting Athena
Human males and females are different in many ways. As a heterosexual male, I am very happy about some of those physical differences. I don't think we differ greatly, mentally, in any significant ways, perhaps with the exception that the vast majority of women, do have, imo, an obviously higher imperative towards nurturing children, in all its forms, than men do. But I do think that this is merely an instinctive difference and is malleable as advances in science and technology and social role changes, continue to blur the gender borderlines.
Quoting Athena
Some influences can be very strong indeed in many people, others can control such natural instincts and hormonal imperatives quite successfully and are not controlled by them. The level at which an individual human is more under the control of their instincts or base chemistry, differs from person to person and perhaps even year to year, or it may depend on how hard your reasoning is able to battle with your, wants, needs, personal cravings/satisfactions etc.
Quoting Athena
Tribal groups have warred since the beginning. Many female warriors were as involved as the men were in many early civilisations. Why, for example in some Western cultures and in the USA, are the Mongols, and Genghis Khan considered to be less influential than the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians etc.
I don't place any of the early civilisations above each other. They were all just 'earlier humans.'
I hate to use the term 'superior,' when comparing one earlier people against another.
That was always one of the main problems, yes?
WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU! AND WE ALWAYS WILL BE. It's freaking BULLSHIT!
It seems to me that, we need to all really work from the position that humans are not superior to each other. I look to the future for a fair, balanced human civilisation. I use past failed systems such as all those which have gone before as 'lessons to be learned and not repeated.'
Quoting Athena
We all have our story of raw thinking and impetuous actions when we were younger.
The bottom is merely a place you can improve from!
We have agreed to help people, but the resources are exhausted so people are not getting the help they are qualified to have. No, we are not intentionally killing them like the Nazis killed Jews, it is death by neglect, and a failure to deal with today's reality. The US is still mentally where it was in the pioneer days when we had more land than people. Exponential growth has radically changed all that.
I will be back to talk about reality and how the US is not dealing with it well.