Brazil Election
We're two days away from the first round of voting in Brazil. After four years of far-right destruction, particularly of the Amazon rainforest, it looks like Lula has a good chance of winning outright.
The question is: what happens if he does win?
There's a lot of talk about potential violence and even a coup. Bolsonaro is echoing Trump's lies before the election has even taken place. So it's fairly obvious he won't accept a loss and will claim, like Trump and his deluded followers, that the election was rife with "fraud."
Fingers crossed for the Brazilian people -- and the planet.
The question is: what happens if he does win?
There's a lot of talk about potential violence and even a coup. Bolsonaro is echoing Trump's lies before the election has even taken place. So it's fairly obvious he won't accept a loss and will claim, like Trump and his deluded followers, that the election was rife with "fraud."
Fingers crossed for the Brazilian people -- and the planet.
Comments (112)
It's not going to be easy.
Time magazine
Bolsonaro doesnt give a damn about the environment. Hes yet another climate change denier who, like most right wingers, wants to actively make it worse.
In the other hand, Lula has been in jail. We can be agree here that he was put in prison because of corrupt judges. Nevertheless, it still be a negative mark in his political career.
Bolsonaro won the previous elections for many reasons but one important: public order. Many Brazilians were tired of living with a lot violence in their neighbourhoods. Bolsonaro reinforced the power of police officers and let them to act more aggressively in favelas. Many citizens applaud this decision.
Quoting Xtrix
Exactly. This another fact. Brazil has a good GDP (11th position of the world) but, sadly, is due to the destruction of the environment.
Quoting Xtrix
He would suffer a lot of pressure from Brazilian elites and probably a Coup d'état.
I dont see it as negative at all. In fact I think overcoming being falsely imprisoned is a merit.
Understandable, but I think that's the way you see it. Others see him as a Marxist criminal.
But hes not a Marxist criminal. Lots of people believe the earth is 6000 years old, too. Who cares?
Why bring up people who are factually wrong?
No and who knows what Bolsonaro is going to do. Hes yet to concede.
He has militarized important regions of the country in the past years. I am not doubt he would be ready Coup d'état.
A coup is unlikely. Im guessing hell simply do what Trump did: scream fraud with zero evidence and energize his base, so that perhaps they do the dirty work for him, a la January 6th.
These elections were not about the right or the left, but about freedom of expression or authoritarianism inspired by Stalinism.
While you entertain yourselves watching us fall, your politicians are destroying your economies, principles, values and liberties exactly as the left has tried to do here.
The moment your people elect a politician who has explicit agreements with the organized crime world, perhaps then, only then, you'll abandon the illusions that are preached upon you.
And for all those who worship the words of "legitimized" institutes - whatever "legitimized" means -, here are a few, very few sources about the many crimes committed by the politician you see as the "savior" of Brazil:
Lula é Condenado por Corrupção e Lavagem de Dinheiro
PT e sua Relação com o PCC
Lula é Condenado no Caso do Triplex
Lula é Apontado como o Mandante do Mensalão
[All sources are in Brazilian Portuguese precisely because if you all would like to give your opinion on the internal affairs of our nation, learn to read our language]
Arent we all?
Sorry, I'm afraid if you'd like to give your opinion on our internal political affairs you'll have to learn to read the languages of all the countries we come from first.
Yes, and Bolsonaro is the most authoritarian leader Brazil has had in decades, looking back fondly as he does of the military dictatorship not to mention nearly everything hes done over the last four years.
Anyway youre wrong. The most significant factor is the Amazon. The Amazons fate affects all of us, all over the world. Electing a climate denier whos hellbent on destroying it isnt a smart move, and no amount of Its my country, so I know better posturing can possibly justify it. (A tired, lame argument if I ever heard one, by the way.)
Very glad to see at least half of Brazil agrees and didnt vote for suicide. Take it up with them.
Putting it succinctly, Bolsanaro is human garbage and Brazil has rightly dumped him. They do seem ill-served by their leaders on all sides though.
Rings a bell in the US.
Quoting Gus Lamarch
:brow:
Don't you mean, learn the language of those who conquered the native peoples of Brazil in the 15th century? If the native cultures had been left alone, no doubt, they would have merged and grown into a nation with as interesting a culture as that of the Marajoara.
Bolsonaro is just another gangster. Lula is the better of the two evils, but hopefully Brazilians will eventually demand much better representatives/leaders than both of them. Save the Earths lungs!
There werent native peoples of Brazil because Brazil is a creation of Portugal and the only official language of Brazil is Portuguese. The rest are just spoken languages.
Are you serious? Is this a serious response or is it supposed to be satirizing modem academic relativism?
Are you Brazilian?
Then what you said really is laughable.
I didn't know. I was going to ask you a bunch of questions if you were. :grin:
We all learn something new everyday here!
Make sure you include an emoticon of a clown mask, when you type such words Javi or readers will think you have lost your way.
Just in-case your serious. These might help you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Brazil
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_in_Brazil
Are there no native Americans because that place became named after a mapmaker?
They already believe I completely lost my way... :sparkle:
Quoting universeness
I didn't say that. I said that "Brazil" is a state created due to the independence from Portugal.
Before Portuguese galleons arrived to America, there were living indigenous people but that specific territory wasn't named as "Brazil" until the Portuguese conquerors decided to put this name.
That's the whole point Javi. There were millions of people living on that land mass before it was named after the relative nobody Amerigo Vespucci. Brazil was named by the Portuguese after a common tree that grew along the coast (brazilwood tree) in that particular landmass. There is not a lot of significance in that. Some 2000 tribes of people lived on that landmass for thousands of years longer than it was labelled Brazil. It's very insulting and historically ignorant to hand wave away the significance of the crime of genocide, inflicted on the indigenous people of the land mass, now labelled as Brazil, by European horrors such as the Portuguese empire and their accompanying offerings, such as influenza, smallpox, god, the Portuguese language and gunpowder.
Thanks for understanding me, friend.
:up: :sparkle:
I look forward to the day when you type about the completely unjust and genocidal treatment of the global indigenous populations which existed all over this planet.
I look forward to your insistence that the remainder of these 'first nations' must be fully respected, protected and have their future secured.
We could still learn so much from them about how to treat and respect the ecology of our planet.
I look forward to your typing's about how angry you feel about the more horrific history of the peoples who live/have lived on the landmass, whose name has changed from Iberia/Hispania to Spain, in the same way I am angry with the more horrific history of the landmass I currently live on.
You can start such typing's whenever you feel enlightened enough to do so.
Yeah, I know, just like you, I can be a sarcastic sod as well.
Quoting javi2541997
I only tried to explain that Brazil (despite all the negative characteristics you put over Portugal) is not an indigenous concept but Portuguese. I was speaking about etymology.
If you want from me to recognise how bloody my country is I would say yes. You are right. Spain has committed a lot of bad stuff around America but this is another different topic and I think we already discussed this issue at the "shoutbox"
If you want to me to say sorry I will not do it. Because the "genocide" was perpetrated by landlords and vassals of the king. My family (and the most part of Spanish families) were not involved in such stuff.
"Spain" is a concept created by Romans too. I guess I should find some responsibilities to the Italians. Italy bad and bloody for making disappear the Iberians.
So was I Javi. That about covers the importance of a countries name imo, its nothing but mere etymology. You did inspire me to write a wee thread however. I would be interested in any post you contribute to it. Only if it interests you of course.
He was just saying that the political entity, Brazil, has no indigenous people. The continent of South America does. No need to get offended.
I know what he was 'just typing,' I was not personally offended. Perhaps the indigenous people of Brazil would be?
So you go on my ignore list. :up:
:rofl: It's fascinating that you think such an act has any significance. If you convince everyone on TPF to do the same then, yes, you will certainly succeed in diminishing whatever presence or influence I have on others through TPF and I would either stop posting here or post much less until perhaps I got responses from new members but on a planet of almost 8 billion people, the little tantrums of frank are not as significant as you obviously think they are.
So far this hasnt been the case. Hes been much more subtle about it than Trump. Hes not conceded, but not yelled about fraud (yet). Hes also not told his supporters to stop blocking the streets, of course. Still, not what I was suspecting.
Apparently many of his top officials and allies in the senate have already congratulated Lula which makes things harder.
Isnt it something that Brazil is handling things better than the US. January 1st cant come soon enough.
Mass delusion at its best.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/02/world/americas/bolsonaro-election-protests.html
Most natives of the Americas were actually wiped out by disease rather than - as many like to believe - war and genocide. War and genocide barely did anything compared to this.
Was Lulu innocent or set up by US officials? Probably the later but Im a cynic :D
I think I already covered your points earlier, including your concern about 'people' rather than 'peoples,' with:
Quoting universeness
The Portuguese were incredibly brutal because they literally emptied their prisons and sent them to Brasil. If you were being sold as a slave you would 100% want to be taken to the states rather than Brasil that is for sure!
Lord Thomas Cochrane was a significant figure in South America. He almost single handedly booted the Spanish and Portuguese out. Interesting guy to study if you like history.
Well, I appreciate what you mean but there is a valid argument that if the Portuguese and the Spanish were not as brutal as they proved to be, then they would not have inadvertently introduced these diseases at a time when the civilisations of South America were unable to defend against them.
Would it not have been much better, if the Portuguese and the Spanish had worked with and traded with the native tribes instead of murdering them. Perhaps they could have even helped them combat the deadly diseases they introduced them to. I agree that they did not intend to introduce their diseases to the 2000 tribes of Brazil but it was their murderous activity that increased the rate and extent of the spread. I think that it's fair to lay some of the blame of the resultant genocide at the door of the Portuguese. At least more so, than it is valid to lay the blame for Covid at the door of the Chinese.
It is also very important not to minimise the number of indigenous people that such invaders did personally, physically slaughter.
I am more familiar with the efforts of Simon Bolivar in ridding South America of foreign invaders, but I have heard of Cochrane, but considered him more as a mercenary whose main motivation was wealth acquisition rather than being driven by a moral imperative to deliver the indigenous peoples of South America from the Spanish and Portuguese. A quick wiki reminder confirmed he also fought for the Greeks and was convicted of fraudulent activity on the stock exchange. Many such 'English Lords of the British Empire,' were global mercenaries in search of fame and fortune but I personally consider all such character's nefarious individuals who warrant no historical respect.
So many assumptions you make there it is laughable :D
There is evidence for this along the Amazon where it was reported there were large kingdoms by explorers. Upon returning later no one found these mythical kingdoms because everyone died of disease. Modern archeology has shed light on this.
Are you not assuming you know more about history than I do?
What assumptions are you making?
Quoting I like sushi
But they did have hostile intentions along with any ailments they brought with them. The British and the French did the same to the native peoples of North America and Canada. More natives have died due to disease that war, but this is true in all of human history. Many more people have died of influenza variants and the various plagues in history than the total number killed in all wars ever. So does that mean we can dilute the horrors of war because disease has killed more people?
Is the human immorality of war more forgivable because you cannot judge disease as inherently immoral?
Quoting I like sushi
Now who is making historical assumptions. How do you or they know how many died and how many survived and abandoned the place because so many died? Petra, Uruk, Ur and hundreds of other city state remains exist today and some have been fully excavated.
There was a myriad of reasons reported as to why such early settlements were eventually abandoned, disease was not the only reason.
On this subject I am sure I know more than you given that you literally stated some glaring untruths/assumptions based on some weird selective reading from a wiki page.
Dilute horrors ? What are you talking about? Whole civilisations literally collapsed before a gun was fired I call that horrific dont you?
You want to focus on the butchery in Brasil by ex-cons more? Or perhaps the barbarous ways on some native tribes? Or the slaughter of families in the black hills whilst the men were away waging war?
Who is making assumptions? Oh er archeologists and historians not people who read selective wiki entries to fit into their sense of knowledge.
My entire point was you wrongly attributed aggressive invading Europeans as the primary mover in the downfall of the American peoples and their civilisations. The additional point was that you clearly know next to nothing about Cochrane and his contributions in South America.
Which part are you assuming I ignored? Demonstrate that you know more than I about history. You may know more about Mr Cochrane but we all have our areas of depth of historical knowledge based on individual interest.
Quoting I like sushi
Of course, its horrific, a tsunami is horrific as is an earthquake if you are nearby when it happens. But as I already pointed out to you, do the historical death tolls due to disease dilute the responsibility the historical Spaniards, Portuguese, French, British etc have for their treatment of indigenous first nation peoples?
Quoting I like sushi
Now you are just typing in tantrum mode.
Quoting I like sushi
I still do maintain that is the case. Most civilisations have historically recovered from disease. Native Americans and indigenous tribes still exist, despite the ravages of disease and the actions of invaders. They just don't have the same control over the land and its resources as they used to, and that fact has a lot more to do with the actions of the invaders rather than disease. If no deaths were caused within native populations due to disease, then they would still have been almost destroyed due to the greed and short sightedness of their invaders.
Quoting I like sushi
You probably do know more about him than I do. I have studied the Napoleonic wars in some detail and had read a little about Cochrane as an English naval commander. I probably know a lot more about the Napoleonic wars than you do, but really? WHO CARES!
I see you have short sightedness. Do not assume your own faults are as prominent in others :D
This is not a tantrum. I am merely mocking someone talking shite because they feel like some moral pinnacle who feels that points blame where they feel it is due yeah! 90% dead insignificant! Plus it does not play into my views of colonialism and racism so I can just ignore that it is ONLY 90%. No need to pay attention to recent discoveries in the Amazon basin made by archeologists they just assume the physical data is true but truth is relative blah blah blah :D
See? Mocking not a tantrum ;)
Are you okay?
IQ to you to!
If ye heid ra baw too much ye wull hurt yer heid too much.
Watch oot fur flyin baws, fings kin get a wee bit fishy!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Brazil#Pre-Cabral_history
The moronic Trump supporters insurrection sure set a great precedent for the rest of the world.
I wonder where they got that idea from...
:chin:
Lula is A-okay in my book, much better than most politicians worldwide. Mandela too was accused of all sorts of crimes and spent time in jail ... but his accusers were the real criminals. Same thing in Brazil: they framed Lula because they could not defeat him in the ballot box.
Good thing that Bolsonaro didn't try a "6th January" à la Trump and co., and that he finally accepted his defeat. It could have gone much worse.
I might have spoken too fast: some bolsonarists have wrecked the congress hall, president palace and supreme court in Brasilia over the weekend... 200 suspected putchists arrested. Apparently Bolsonaro himself is not involved.
Rather, it's not the first time an honest, popular politician is unfairly accused of corruption by corrupt elites. Because you see, only the rich and powerful are entitled to steal.
That's ridiculous.
Yeah, I may well have fell for the intrigue of his opposition. I feel the same way you do about Lula regarding Hugo Chavez.
Quoting Olivier5
Did you type this before or after hearing last nights news from Brazil?
Before.
Hugo Chavez stayed in power too long for his own good, perhaps a bit like Putin or Thatcher: started good but ended shitty.
The copy cat relationship many people around the world seem to have with all things American, is depressing at best and damn dangerous at worse.
Yeah, well, I suppose its a question of how far back do we trace such events and decide what influenced what?
The English invading parliament and eventually chopping off the head of the King?
The British sacking the white house?
The Russian peasants storming the winter palace?
The French peasants taking over every palace in France?
etc.
My position that in our current global society, what happens in America is unhealthily aped globally, remains.
No. Whatever happens in America doesn't usually have important impact in Asia. We think we are copies of USA because we live in Western world (the world they dominate). But these political conflicts will no have any effect in Japan, South Korea or China. They just see the things completely different from us.
Yep, Trump did not invent anything new on 6th January, yet he gave ideas to others.
This said, Bolsonaro was in actuality classier than Trump here: he has condemned the weekend violence.
Quoting universeness
If it makes you happy. My conviction is that in our not-so-current (in fact quite old) globalised world, anything happening anywhere is likely to be copied somewhere. American also copy others, even when they think otherwise. It's a two way street.
Do you mean like this?
are you clapping along?
Is this despite the fact America has been involved with China since before the boxer rebellion over 200 years ago. They occupied Japan and they fought the Korean war! But their internal political status has no impact on China, Japan or South Korea?
No. Not at all. I guess there is some influence around NATO political affairs, but I don't see big impacts on Japanese or Chinese internal political decisions.
How many Chinese, Japanese, South Korean people have you asked the question 'how much are you influenced by the American media?'
I like Korean pop better. :-)
https://preview.lofficielitalia.com/moda/k-pop-star-ambassador-moda-bts-blackpink-chi-sono
Let me guess: it works much much better wherever you just happen to live, for some odd reason? Beware of parochialism...
Quoting Benkei
What about anywhere else?
I seriously doubt the Portuguese were worse than the British or later the Americans in terms of how they treated slaves. One characteristic of British colonialists was their efforts to portay themselves as better and more humane than other colonialists, such as the Spaniard or the French. It was just propaganda though.
It was worse. I've gotta good book recommendation if you're interested.
During this dark period of human history more slaves died in Brasil than everywhere else combined - so the estimations say - Considerably more. It is also believed around 40% of the slaves bound for the americas arrived in Brasil. Mostly men who were, if memory served me, typically castrated and/or worked to death - literally - then simply replaced by more men from Africa.
So if I was an african on a slave ship heading for the US I would have been far more likely to survive than those heading for Brasil.
For instance, does anyone know to what extent Bolsonaro was involved? Did he rile up the mob?
As for Bolsanaro I doubt the mob needed much riling given the amount of corruption in Brasil. The amount of money the government took as bribes not so long ago was astronomical and it does not surprise me that a good proportion of them do not believe Lula had no clue and are unhappy about him being elected.
It is up to Lula to steady the ship but I do not think the stain will go until he goes even then it will take time. Scandals like that do not fade too quickly in peoples memories.
Makes no actual sense. Slaves were worth a lot of money. What is true though is that the porthuguese started the slave trade, in order to develop Brasil, which is enormous while Portugal is very small. They tried to find slaves everywhere along their extensive trade routes, even in Japan.
The other nations only copied the Portuguese, decades later.
Scandals like what? Did Lula forget to pay a parking ticket? Cut his head, now!
Written by a Portuguese, I am sure...
It's a collection of essays and excerpts published by Oxford.
This may provida Lula an opportunity to reform certain police practices as well as getting some of the moderate Bolsonaro voters (if there are any) to denounce violence and this distance themselves from him.
This plague of right-wingers is very scary. They're still a problem even out of office.
What do you think generates that kind of movement?
I suspect that part of it has to do with dwindling economic conditions for the vast majority of the population.
Instead of looking for the actual culprits, say, the billionaire class, a significant portion of the political class, and massive multi-national corporations, these politicians do what they've always done, they demonize minorities, vulnerable people and so on.
It's easy to do because you rarely see billionaires in real life, nor are you invited to board meetings in Goldman Sachs or are invited to Davos. But gay people, indigenous people, poor people - those you see every day. "They are responsible for your problems, not us."
And then there are other factors too, nationalism, religion, tribalism, etc., and you have a recipe for a disaster.
That's what I make of it anyway.
:up:
What scandal? :D Seriously? :D