Eureka!

Agent Smith November 30, 2022 at 02:37 3700 views 21 comments
We make such a big deal of understanding aka comprehension.

Could it be that, as someone once said to me, the point is to [s]unlearn[/s] ununderstand or at the very least, refuse to understand?

Comments (21)

Jack Cummins November 30, 2022 at 09:55 #759497
Reply to Agent Smith
The question about refusing to understand may come down to whether this happens consciously or not. Someone may say that they simply don't understanding without realising that they are not making an effort to do so, as an aspect of a subconscious defence mechanism. In some ways people may have blindspots about such defense mechanisms, especially in emotionally charged topics of a personal sensitive nature.
Agent Smith November 30, 2022 at 10:06 #759499
Reply to Jack Cummins Defense mechanisms - heard of those, quite a long time ago though. Are they still legitimate ideas in psychology? Could you please give me an example. Danke.

The blind spot,inter alia, is a classic case of poor design, wouldn't you agree mon ami? There are, I feel, some inconsistencies, here & there, but it's not in my place to, you know, point fingers.

Understanding, what is it? I recall giving me opinion on the subject a long time ago, but I have Alzheimer's (self-diagnosed). So yeah!
Jack Cummins November 30, 2022 at 10:17 #759502
Reply to Agent Smith
The reason why defence mechanisms are not spoken about much is because the language of psychoanalysis is not used very much because other models are used instead. I use it though because I have done some psychodynamic training and find it useful.

An example of a defense mechanisms may be someone ignoring particular points which someone has made totally on a topic as if excluding them. What I am describing is a form of selective attention. For example, if someone who is religious listens to a discussion about theism and atheism and zooms in on all the arguments in favour of God's existence and appears not to have heard all the points in favour of atheism. Similarly, this may appear in political discussions when one seems almost blind to opposing arguments.
Agent Smith November 30, 2022 at 10:24 #759503
Reply to Jack Cummins

Amazing! I havta read up on the topic! Wikipedia should have an article or two on it.

So you're suggesting that some people block out stuff that may be critical to his/her grasp of a subject under discussion (this being involuntary). Yep, that's correct!

What of a broader/different perspective on defense mechanisms? Any ideas?
180 Proof November 30, 2022 at 10:33 #759504
Quoting Agent Smith
Understanding, what is it?

My shorthand: to understand is to, explicitly or implicitly, contextualize discourses (i.e. narratives, maps, models), actions or events in order to orient oneself and thereby constrain uncertainty. No doubt, understanding is an infinite task because metacognition is as finite as it is perspectival.
Agent Smith November 30, 2022 at 10:40 #759506
Reply to 180 Proof You read me mind mon ami! I haven't been able to formulate as clear an understanding of understanding.

What do you make of the following?

[quote=David Hilbert (German mathematician)]Wir müssen wissen - Wir werden wissen (We must know - we will know).[/quote]
180 Proof November 30, 2022 at 11:36 #759511
Reply to Agent Smith Well Gödel shook Hilbert from that fever-dream. :smirk:
Agent Smith November 30, 2022 at 12:29 #759519
Reply to 180 Proof On point!

Do you understand Gödel's argument? If you do, kindly sum it for me. If you don't where do you get stuck so to speak?
180 Proof November 30, 2022 at 13:10 #759521
Reply to Agent Smith Another time, mi amigo, it's 5am here ... :yawn: Besides, I suspect @jgill or @Banno can help you out with old Gödel.
Agent Smith November 30, 2022 at 13:18 #759523
Reply to 180 Proof No problemo!
javi2541997 December 01, 2022 at 19:53 #759892
Quoting Agent Smith
Could it be that, as someone once said to me, the point is to unlearn ununderstand or at the very least, refuse to understand?


I am agree. But one of the main problems is that our awareness is difficult to understand. So I will not be able to say: I understand you! while it is hard to understand myself. It is a paradox, if you think it deeply. We try to debate about metaphysical with the aim of reaching significance meanwhile we are not really sure if we understand ourselves at all.
Agent Smith December 01, 2022 at 19:57 #759896
Reply to javi2541997 That, mon ami, is a wonderful summary of [s]our[/s] my predicament.
javi2541997 December 01, 2022 at 20:11 #759910
Reply to Agent Smith It is always a pleasure to debate with you, friend :sparkle: :up:
Agent Smith December 01, 2022 at 20:12 #759912
Quoting javi2541997
It is always a pleasure to debate with you, friend :sparkle:


:smile:
180 Proof December 02, 2022 at 03:39 #760049
Quoting Agent Smith
Do you understand Gödel's argument?

I "understand" his Incompleteness theorems only while I'm reading them or a learned synopsis of them.

If you do, kindly sum it for me. If you don't where do you get stuck so to speak?

I guess I'm "stuck" at not being an adequate enough logician or metamathematician.
Agent Smith December 02, 2022 at 04:37 #760058
Reply to 180 Proof

The incompleteness theorems, there are two of them. Relies on, by some accounts, a mod of the well-known liar paradox. Basically boils down to the Gödel statement (G) "This statement is unprovable"; the system is so designed that the statement in question is G itself. In short, G = G is unprovable. Now the "fun" part: If G is provable, G is true which is to say G is unprovable. If G is unprovable then G is, well, unprovable. Either way, there's a statement that's unprovable viz. G.



javi2541997 December 02, 2022 at 07:24 #760084
Reply to 180 Proof Reply to Agent Smith Good points both of you. But understanding is not necessarily based in logic and mathematics. You used Gödel's theorems but we can also quote Confucianism or Aristotle's anima in terms of basic knowledge.
Agent Smith December 02, 2022 at 07:50 #760087
Reply to javi2541997 Danke for the reminder!
Agent Smith December 09, 2022 at 07:44 #762094
Mushin no shin

Empty yer mind ... :party:
180 Proof December 10, 2022 at 04:12 #762445
Quoting Agent Smith
Empty yer mind ... :party:

D'oh! :gasp:
Agent Smith December 10, 2022 at 06:08 #762460
Also related may be forgetfulness, amnesia, etc. associated with a constellation of psychiatric illnesses.