Questions of Hope, Love and Peace...

Hope destroys fear. Hope is far more powerful than love or evil imo. Hope allows you to die, and as you die, you can still maintain a belief that our species will do better in the future. Even those who have experienced holocaust and ethnic cleansing, can demonstrate hope, often, even before they mention love or hate or revenge.

Quoting Tao Te Ching - Stephen Mitchell

Hope is as hollow as fear.

One projects oneself into the future, and identifies with the imagined future self. Thus hope and fear arise together as acts of imagination - one fears the worst and hopes for the best. Better to keep the mind silent and stay in the present. On a practical level, of course one has to foresee and prepare - it is the identification that is unnecessary and causes the suffering of hope and fear.

Spirituality is presence, secularity is absence of mind in thought and imagination.

Quoting universeness

Hope destroys fear.

No hope and fear always arise together; one hopes to win and fears to lose. What you claim here is the gambler's fallacy, that leads to addiction.

Quoting unenlightened

What you claim here is the gambler's fallacy, that leads to addiction.

Ok, in that case, I fully recommend addiction to hope! It will destroy your fears!
I remain hopeful that most people can defeat any compulsion to become addicted to gambling.
If some can't, then I remain hopeful that we can put supports in place to 'save' those addicted to gambling.

Quoting universeness

I fully recommend addiction to hope!

The triumph of religion over spirituality.

Reply to unenlightened
The triumph of human hope over pernicious religious or spiritual woo woo.
We need human spirit yes. But I prefer the original meaning of spirit as Carl Sagan described it, 'animated.'

"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution." ~Emma Goldman

Quoting Amity

What is your experience of hope as a feeling, action or philosophical concept?

"Hope as a feeling?" Pacifer, or placebo, for fear

"Hope as an action?" Denying risk or improbability.

"Hope as a philosophical concept?" The essential 'triumph of imagination over intelligence'.

Where have you expressed or found it?

In a foxhole there is no "hope" – there's only courage or tears (or both).

Did you find it 'hollow as fear'?

More like, as futile as regret.

:death:

"We invented the blues; Europeans invented psychoanalysis. You invent what you need."
~Albert Murray

"Without music, life would be a mistake... I would only believe in a God who knew how to dance." ~Freddy Zarathustra

:flower:

As someone who lost religious faith some time ago, I wondered about any secular songs about 'hope' and if they could be seen as a kind of 'prayer'. How spiritual is the secular?

From Latin for "song" – cantus, cantare, canto – comes, in English, chant, enchant and incantation which connotes, for me, to celebrate or express joy, whether in a major or minor key. So to the degree "the secular" is open to different, even incommensurate, expressions of joy, "the secular is spiritual" as far as I'm concerned (though in practice, far more sectarian or commercial than "spiritual").

George Harrison's 'incantations' were/are exceptions and exceptional moments in the maelstrom of sing-a-long profanities which have always been the bread and butter of tin-pan alley. For decades I've tried to curate my own library of musical joys which, unlike "hope", I find that joy motivates courage.

[quote=Freddy Zarathustra]One must learn to love.— This is what happens to us in music: first one has to learn to hear a figure and melody at all, to detect and distinguish it, to isolate it and delimit it as a separate life; then it requires some exertion and good will to tolerate it in spite of its strangeness, to be patient with its appearance and expression, and kindhearted about its oddity:—finally there comes a moment when we are used to it, when we wait for it, when we sense that we should miss it if it were missing: and now it continues to compel and enchant us relentlessly until we have become its humble and enraptured lovers who desire nothing better from the world than it and only it.— But that is what happens to us not only in music: that is how we have learned to love all things that we now love. In the end we are always rewarded for our good will, our patience, fairmindedness, and gentleness with what is strange; gradually, it sheds its veil and turns out to be a new and indescribable beauty:—that is its thanks for our hospitality. Even those who love themselves will have learned it in this way: for there is no other way. Love, too, has to be learned.[/quote]
Amor fati :hearts:

Quoting unenlightened

Hope destroys fear.
— universeness

No hope and fear always arise together; one hopes to win and fears to lose. What you claim here is the gambler's fallacy, that leads to addiction.

Or fundamentalism.

Quoting universeness

I prefer the original meaning of spirit as Carl Sagan described it, 'animated'.

:up:

Quoting 180 Proof

From Latin for "song" – cantus, cantare, canto – comes, in English, chant, enchant and incantation which connotes, for me, to celebrate or express joy, whether in a major or minor key.

How about this brilliant hope filled 'il canto' from Pavarotti. Excellent vid of everyday folks as well:

Quoting Tao Te Ching - Stephen Mitchell

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

These have always been two of my favorite lines from the Tao Te Ching. I've never had any trouble dispensing with hope and understanding why that is important. Fear has always been my problem. Hearing they are the same has always given me hope. Oops.

Reply to T Clark :smirk:

Reply to universeness Thanks. And in the spirit of @Amity's OP, a George Harrison 'song of hope' (or joy in a minor key) as interpreted by Nina Simone

and this shorter mash-up remix of the same song:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7gYn8-ziaFI

Reply to 180 Proof
Nina was one of the greatest singers there has ever been.
Who can doubt she really believed what she sang.
Isn't it a pity we ALL sometimes forget to give back and see the beauty around us and in each other.

Reply to Amity
It is sometimes argued that hope is not the best approach to life. I had an art therapist tutor who seemed to regard it as a rather futile pursuit but the problem would be that without hope it may be like giving up. The existentialists, especially Camus, spoke of living with the absurd and despair. This may be valid to some extent but it depends how far it goes.

Also, there is the issue of hope in relation to despair, but fear also involves the aspect of faith. This need not be in the traditional religious sense but about faith in whatever path one is on, as an aspect of positive conviction. This may be important as a form of mindset, which involves clear intentionality in thinking about desired goals and not becoming defeated and engulfed by fear in an overwhelming way.

The attitudes of peace and love may also be important in an approach to life, if consciously chosen because at times in a dog eat dog world they can become lost, and pushed to the bottom of agendas. The secular humanists pointed to such values as an ethical foundation independently of religious beliefs.
.

Reply to 180 Proof

:up: Hope, love, peace are intriguing ideas/sentiments. I am where I am. :broken:

Reply to 180 Proof Reply to universeness

Nina's interpretation moves beyond Harrison and hits levels of intensity that I can't adequately describe.
I had no idea. Thanks again @180 Proof for sharing one of your 'musical joys':
Quoting 180 Proof

For decades I've tried to curate my own library of musical joys which, unlike "hope", I find that joy motivates courage.

I would say that the joy felt when listening to such music shared can lift a feeling of hopelessness or despair; the love within can be enough to bring tears. The release of which enables or releases the mind - if slowly - to begin to appreciate what we've been given and what we might still have to give in return.
A sense of peace and care. Even if fleeting...

From Nina's interpretation:

Just a little time, a little care
A little note written in the air
Just the little thank you
We just forget to give back
Cause we're moving too fast
Moving too fast
Forgetting to give back

Keeping this in mind, I'll join in the spirit and attempt to answer all those who cared to take the time to respond. Andante.

Before that, here are some links; a scan of hope in academia:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hope/

https://academic.oup.com/pq/advance-article/doi/10.1093/pq/pqac010/6582893

Quoting Focus Theory of Hope - Andrew Chignell

Most elpistologists now agree that hope for a specific outcome involves more than just desire plus the presupposition that the outcome is possible. This paper argues that the additional element of hope is a disposition to focus on the desired outcome in a certain way. I first survey the debate about the nature of hope in the recent literature, offer objections to some important competing accounts, and describe and defend the view that hope involves a kind of focus or attention. I then suggest that this account makes sense of the intuitive thought that there are moral and pragmatic norms on hope that go beyond the norms on desires and modal presuppositions. I conclude by considering some key questions.

Quoting universeness

Hope destroys fear. Hope is far more powerful than love or evil imo. Hope allows you to die, and as you die, you can still maintain a belief that our species will do better in the future. Even those who have experienced holocaust and ethnic cleansing, can demonstrate hope, often, even before they mention love or hate or revenge.

As much as I think highly of hope, I think you grant it too much power.
How do you even begin to measure it?
How do you demonstrate it?
I was once told that Fear and Desire are the 2 main motivators.
As in:
Quoting unenlightened

...hope and fear always arise together; one hopes to win and fears to lose.

I wonder if it helps to view Fear and Desire as having their own spectrum and on different sides of the same coin. Hmm. Mixing structures here...
So, different kinds and levels.
Is hope a subset of desire or lesser in degree? I think it's more obvious when relating anxiety to fear...
Again, same might be said for love and hate...

I wonder if love/desire ( or even hate) is necessary before any hope can take place.
Before we can hope for anything, we must recognise our needs or wants.

Quoting unenlightened

One projects oneself into the future, and identifies with the imagined future self. Thus hope and fear arise together as acts of imagination - one fears the worst and hopes for the best. Better to keep the mind silent and stay in the present. On a practical level, of course one has to foresee and prepare - it is the identification that is unnecessary and causes the suffering of hope and fear.

Spirituality is presence, secularity is absence of mind in thought and imagination.

Yes. Usually, we think of hope as a future projection but it can also be an in-the-moment 'hoping'.
And that can involve the past: I hope my mother didn't suffer too much before she died.
However, I agree that past kind of 'hope' related to anxiety is not helpful.

Also, there can be a natural predisposition for hope or despair.
I'm not sure what you mean by the identification being unnecessary. Grateful for clarification.
Secularity as 'absence of mind' doesn't make sense to me...

Quoting universeness

Ok, in that case, I fully recommend addiction to hope! It will destroy your fears!
I remain hopeful that most people can defeat any compulsion to become addicted to gambling.
If some can't, then I remain hopeful that we can put supports in place to 'save' those addicted to gambling.

Just say "No to Hope!" - as some do.
An all-consuming hope to win when gambling money will occupy and exacerbate any mental/physical predisposition. That will in no way destroy any fears but will decimate your bank balance, disrupt and influence actions/behaviour that will most likely lead to poverty and even homelessness.

Any addiction or release from it relies on support. I'm with you there in pragmatic hope :100:

Quoting universeness

We need human spirit yes. But I prefer the original meaning of spirit as Carl Sagan described it, 'animated.'

I don't know much about Sagan or the context in which he uses 'animated'.
Does he say anything about 'hope'?

Reply to 180 Proof
So much here, so good :up:
Will need to take a break now. Later...

Quoting Amity

I'm not sure what you mean by the identification being unnecessary. Grateful for clarification.

That's a bit complex; here is not really the place to go into it, but very briefly, identification is making a connection of identity of any sort I am British, I am aphilosopher, I am going to win the lottery - the underlined are the identities, and the connection is an emotion pride or shame hope or fear. So when I say that the identification is unnecessary, I mean that I can acknowledge the fact that I am here, writing stuff that we might call philosophy or perhaps psychology, I don't need to have an emotional attachment to it, such that I am hurt if someone calls it nonsense. Of course there is a public aspect to identity, such that if the mods think I write nonsense all the time I get thrown off the site, but again, that is only a problem to me to the extent that I am emotionally invested in the identity of philosopher.

Quoting 180 Proof

"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution." ~Emma Goldman

Didn't get much further than this.
I shake my head as I realise my ignorance. I hadn't heard of Goldman before. After reading the wiki article, I shake my head in disbelief at her life story. How she overcame the horrendousness and was still able to 'sing' and dance:

Quoting Wiki - Emma Goldman

One of her first public talks in support of "the Cause" was in Rochester. After convincing Helena not to tell their parents of her speech, Goldman found her mind a blank once on stage. She later wrote, suddenly:[34]

something strange happened. In a flash I saw it—every incident of my three years in Rochester: the Garson factory, its drudgery and humiliation, the failure of my marriage, the Chicago crime...I began to speak. Words I had never heard myself utter before came pouring forth, faster and faster. They came with passionate intensity...The audience had vanished, the hall itself had disappeared; I was conscious only of my own words, of my ecstatic song.
[...]
While dancing among fellow anarchists one evening, she was chided by an associate for her carefree demeanor. In her autobiography, Goldman wrote:[171]

I told him to mind his own business, I was tired of having the Cause constantly thrown in my face. I did not believe that a Cause which stood for a beautiful ideal, for anarchism, for release and freedom from conventions and prejudice, should demand denial of life and joy. I insisted that our Cause could not expect me to behave as a nun and that the movement should not be turned into a cloister. If it meant that, I did not want it. "I want freedom, the right to self-expression, everybody's right to beautiful, radiant things."

The epitome of hope in action.

I must leave it here for now...

Quoting Amity

As much as I think highly of hope, I think you grant it too much power.

No, if anything, I think I have underestimated its importance. Hope is the fundamental, that comes before love, joy etc. Your use of the word 'grant' brought this into my head from Eddie Grant:


Gimme hope Joanna! (Johannesburg)
Quoting Amity

How do you even begin to measure it?

Historical and contemporary exemplification from those who express it, in speech, writing or/and in their creative works and positive actions. This also includes those who express hope despite having gone through terrible trauma. Folks like Doddie Weir, who just died of motor neuron disease, demonstrated nothing but hope towards the defeat of that horrible disease in the future. As do those in the public eye who will continue that hope in his name. A hope filled legacy. There are so many such legacies which should give us all hope for the future. The legacy of Deborah James, the bowel cancer babe is another example.
Quoting Amity

How do you demonstrate it?

In a myriad of ways, like those exemplars I just mentioned above. But such examples can also include, authoring a thread about hope on a philosophy website.

Quoting Amity

I wonder if love/desire ( or even hate) is necessary before any hope can take place.

I think it's hope that is fundamental. Why breathe or eat or drink, why not just stop and die? We hope that the next moment will be ok, that's why.

Quoting Amity

Any addiction or release from it relies on support. I'm with you there in pragmatic hope :100:

:up:

Quoting Amity

I don't know much about Sagan or the context in which he uses 'animated'.
Does he say anything about 'hope'?

It's from his book, The demon haunted world. The word 'spirit' in Latin literally translates as 'to breathe,' this is demonstrated by an animated or moving human chest, up and down, which indicates life. Nothing supernatural was originally suggested by the word spirit or spiritual.

Carl made many, many, many hope filled statements, such as:
"We embarked on our journey to the stars with a question first framed in the childhood of our species and in each generation, asked anew, with undiminished wonder: What are the stars? Exploration is in our nature. We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars."

"Better by far to embrace the hard truth, than a reassuring fable. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal."

Reply to Amity
Words associated with the word Amity:
amicableness, benevolence, comity, concord, cordiality, friendliness, goodwill, harmony, kindliness, neighborliness, togetherness, simpatico.

I don't think it would be incorrect to include 'hope' or 'hopefulness,' in the above list of associated labels.

Quoting unenlightened

That's a bit complex; here is not really the place to go into it, but very briefly, identification is making a connection of identity of any sort I am British, I am aphilosopher, I am going to win the lottery - the underlined are the identities, and the connection is an emotion pride or shame hope or fear.

Thanks. I know something already about identity and surrounding socio-psychological issues related to pride or shame. Class, gender, financial status etc.

What I didn't understand was how it was unnecessary. Emotions are part of who we are.
We are not necessarily 'attached' to hope or fear. Perhaps it is a fear or anxiety related to a potential consequence (success/failure) of entertaining hope that causes some to deny they have any.

Both fear and hope, their contents, exist whether we like it or not. I don't view them as 'hollow'.
What I would say is that they have to be attended to. Attention paid.
Otherwise, it's avoidance. Your thoughts?

Quoting T Clark

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.
— Tao Te Ching - Stephen Mitchell

These have always been two of my favorite lines from the Tao Te Ching. I've never had any trouble dispensing with hope and understanding why that is important. Fear has always been my problem. Hearing they are the same has always given me hope. Oops.

What is it that you think 'hope' is that means you feel you have to stop doing or eliminate it?

Quoting unenlightened

Of course there is a public aspect to identity, such that if the mods think I write nonsense all the time I get thrown off the site, but again, that is only a problem to me to the extent that I am emotionally invested in the identity of philosopher.

Yes. Also, if the mods think that someone is acting without a certain degree of control, almost like an addict. There can be a suspension until a balance might be reached. The mind takes possession; we need something badly and it takes over everyday activities. Kinda what's happening to me right now, even with my self-imposed time limit. I'm not emotionally invested in the identity of philosopher but I find myself becoming too involved and need to step back.

Sometimes you don't even realise that you have hope until you experience disappointment.
For example, the recent decision to cancel the December Short Story Competition.
There was an expectation that it would happen. Stories might have been written with the hope to share and receive feedback. Yet, as far as I can tell, no author expressed any disappointment they felt.
Why? No pushback. Is that because it was pointless, the decision having been taken?

I felt disappointed and said so. But perhaps I was wrong. I was more invested than I thought.
Unknown hopes dashed. Who knew?

Quoting Amity

I felt disappointed and said so. But perhaps I was wrong.

Sometimes we can overanalyse ourselves and think we are becoming too irrational there or too addictive here. Employment of caution and self-analysis, is always wise, but so is allowing you to be you, without any compulsion to self-deprecate (which can also become addictive). Getting that balance perfect everytime is unattainable, so I continue to try not to destroy myself too much when I fail to live up to my own judgements.

Quoting 180 Proof

"Hope as a feeling?" Pacifer, or placebo, for fear

Hope as dummy-tit? To feel or seek/suck comfort to heal/overcome anxiety?
Does that mean you create that feeling intentionally?
When I try to think of any hopeful feelings I might have, then I'm already at a distance from basic hope.
Instant hope; is it like instant coffee? Instant fear, a flight response. Hope kicking in too...to survive.

Is that the same as the 'feeling'? A subjective pleasant perception with a positive motivation.
That's not quite right. There's more.
An uplifting of mood/spirit invoked by engagement with attuned others?
Perhaps the feeling I had when I listened to the Italian Rainbow song? And other songs presented here.

Quoting 180 Proof

"Hope as an action?" Denying risk or improbability.

That seems a bit negative and wobbly. Can you explain further?
For me, I guess the hope in question is that of pragmatism. Problem-solving - to bring about a positive
change.

Quoting 180 Proof

"Hope as a philosophical concept?" The essential 'triumph of imagination over intelligence'.

Doesn't that quote refer to love or marriage?
It seems not to give 'hope' its due as something of value.
I've only recently paid close attention to it as an academic philosophical concept.
I guess I've seen it more as a psychological motivating force in the context of being and doing.
Also, related to anxiety, choosing ways of thinking to protect against negativity and low mood.

Quoting 180 Proof

Where have you expressed or found it?
In a foxhole there is no "hope" – there's only courage or tears (or both).

That reminds me of this:
https://philosophynow.org/issues/105/Atheist_In_A_Foxhole
- how some religious people say no-one is an atheist in a foxhole.

We can find ourselves in a mental hole of our own making with only ourselves to care/look out for.
There can be all kinds of mixed emotions tied up with values/character.
Real or imagined dangers/failures. Can we climb out on our own? Some hope so...
Hope can co-exist with courage and tears. Are you denying the existence of hope?

In a battlefield, the foxhole is apparently designed so that individuals look out for each other's back.
In the hope they survive enemy fire. What if the enemy fire is your own? Bullets of despair.

Quoting 180 Proof

Did you find it 'hollow as fear'?
More like, as futile as regret.

How is regret futile? OK, you can't undo what has happened. However, the hope is that you can learn from your mistakes. That's what hope does. We try to achieve goals, we might fail, we try again.
On the other hand, sometimes Zarathustra is a little too much at any given time...
Thanks for the quote, I[s]'ll[/s] might read it later.

I really appreciate your attention to the OP :up:

Reply to Amity

It's hard to maintain a view of the world objectively and speak much about hope. It is a strategy to maintain some semblance of sanity. Otherwise, things are simply too bleak for us.

I do want to add though, that being secular too, as I am, can be a profoundly mystical experience. I hesitate to talk about spirituality, given how loaded the word is.

But depending on which traditions you follow and how you view the world from a more general perspective, can be a source of very profound experiences.

In fact, you mentioned one: music. It is a privilege to be a being that is capable of appreciating such a thing, noise to other creatures, sublime to us.

As with music, many other experiences too. Not sure if this connects with hope, but, worth pointing out.

Reply to Jack Cummins

Quoting Jack Cummins

It is sometimes argued that hope is not the best approach to life. I had an art therapist tutor who seemed to regard it as a rather futile pursuit but the problem would be that without hope it may be like giving up. The existentialists, especially Camus, spoke of living with the absurd and despair. This may be valid to some extent but it depends how far it goes.

Yes. As per previous comments. I wonder what those most critical of hope would say about the opposite state. That of living a life of 'hopelessness'. It seems some see hope as a positive virtue, others not so much. As you say, 'it depends how far it goes'; the various aspects of my questions left any responses wide open. A matter of kind and degree. From the superficial (everyday) to the significant (crises).

I agree that sometimes a leap of faith, not in the religious sense, is required when it comes to
processing or progressing, from what one hopes for to action and any eventual outcome.
Navigating inner and outer obstacles as you describe.

Yes. Personal/social attitudes and values ( conscious or otherwise) play an important part.
I was conscious when I included 'Love and Peace' in the title that some eyes might roll and was tempted to take them out. However, I agree with you as to the important relationship between the variables and so kept them in.

Thank you too for your thoughts re secular humanists. I don't think that religion has the final say on morals or spirituality.

What is it that we hope for? A political hope might concern environmental issues...
How do we manage our expectations with regard to politics?
How reasonable is it to hope and expect governments to prioritise the different goals within set structures and ideologies?
Hoped and unhoped-for change can happen like chaos (sudden strike) - or at slo-snail pace or not at all.

Quoting Manuel

It's hard to maintain a view of the world objectively and speak much about hope. It is a strategy to maintain some semblance of sanity. Otherwise, things are simply too bleak for us.

Yes. It seems that hope is more about a subjective feeling related to a mix of emotions. But we've also discussed it in terms of action and abstraction. As you say, it can be a strategic choice in coping with the realities or hallucinations of the world as we know/experience it.

Different considerations and conclusions can be reached as to the meaning of hope.

Quoting Manuel

I do want to add though, that being secular too, as I am, can be a profoundly mystical experience. I hesitate to talk about spirituality, given how loaded the word is.

The hesitancy to talk about 'spirituality' on a philosophy forum is quite natural. It does come loaded with all kinds of religious baggage. I think there should be concerted efforts to reclaim the word for a secular world. No shame attached.

Quoting Manuel

But depending on which traditions you follow and how you view the world from a more general perspective, can be a source of very profound experiences.

Indeed. From Nina Simone's interpretation:

Isn't it a pity
You don't know what i'm talking about yet
But i will tell you soon
It's a pity
Isn't it a pity
Isn't it a shame
Yes, how we break each other's hearts
And cause each other pain
[...]
Some things take so long
[b]But how do i explain
Why not too many people can see
That we are all just the same[/b]
We're all guilty
Because of all the tears
Our eyes just can't hope to see
But i don't think it's applicable to me
The beauty that surrounds them
Child, isn't it a pity...

Quoting Manuel

In fact, you mentioned one: music. It is a privilege to be a being that is capable of appreciating such a thing, noise to other creatures, sublime to us.

As with music, many other experiences too. Not sure if this connects with hope, but, worth pointing out.

Did you listen to the Nina Simone video linked to by @180 Proof?
It blew me away.
And yes, it does connect to hope...in a big way...the hope that our eyes will see the beauty...even in the midst of life's woes. Through all the fears and tears we can find the rainbow:

Quoting BBC News - Coronavirus: Covid Nurses' song of hope from Italy

"The situation's really devastating, but I refuse to be sucked into negativity and pessimism," says Simona. I want to continue with my optimism because I can see a light at the end of this tunnel, just as I see a rainbow."

That song of hope we can feel it, even in another language :cool:
Gracias :up:

Reply to Jack Cummins

Sorry, Jack, to hear of your ongoing housing problem but admire the way you are dealing with it:

So, I try to think about the practical, personal and political aspects in the fullest possible scope. I am trying to cope with the dramas which I encounter practically and on an existential level.i can't speak to the official landlord because he has disappeared in Pakistan. I am trying to get legal advice and trying to find accommodation, which is not easy when so many are looking.

You seem to be doing all you can do in a most frustrating and difficult situation.
Stay strong in pragmatic hope and action :pray:
Take care :sparkle:

Quoting Amity

As someone who lost religious faith some time ago, I wondered about any secular songs about 'hope' and if they could be seen as a kind of 'prayer'. How spiritual is the secular?
The lyrics are about hope, love and peace:

For me, hope is what remains at the end, when all previous reason has lost its vigour, its value, its authority. A pure desire to find meanings once lost.

As hope is reason enough in itself to continue. Hope for hopes sake, self perpetuating and self proving, self evident without any external requirements.

Some might say having hope in a hopeless place is the greatest of all irrationalities, a pointless, fruitless effort, that one ought to give up hope, but if its all they have left what would they have after that? Nothing. Non existence. Submittal to death. Oblivion.

Where better to re-examine and define "the rational, the multiplicity of reasons," then from outside its dominion, from that very place of pure belief, pure faith and optimism and determinism and imagination for the future - an innate power/instinct that only hope truly offers.

Hope is the ultimate fuel of survival and endurance. It is the poetry that underpins existence in a society built on best guesses, half truths, conflicting opinions and invalidations, but also beauty, imagination, innovation and progress.

The greatest truths are those that persist unperturbed - always exist through time. As they are the truest of true things. Constants. And hope I would imagine is a constant we ought not to undervalue, as losing it only brings forth utter despair.

Reply to Amity

Very beautiful song - and a wonderful voice.

I don't see how we can reclaim spirituality from the New Age aspects the word has acquired. Having said that, anyone can use the word.

If we had no such thing as music or books, or plays and colors and tastes, well then, life would be indeed be a waste.

So there's hope in that, as you say. :)

Reply to Amity For me, she's the epitome of courage. :fire:

Quoting Benj96

For me, hope is what remains at the end, when all previous reason has lost its vigour, its value, its authority. A pure desire to find meanings once lost.

Interesting point of view. It reminds me of the Pandora's Box myth where Hope is left behind after other blessings or curses have flown out (depending on interpretation).

Quoting Wiki - Pandora's box

Pandora opened a jar left in her care containing sickness, death and many other unspecified evils which were then released into the world. Though she hastened to close the container, only one thing was left behind – usually translated as Hope, though it could also have the pessimistic meaning of "deceptive expectation".
[...]
In a major departure from Hesiod, the 6th-century BC Greek elegiac poet Theognis of Megara states that

Hope is the only good god remaining among mankind;
the others have left and gone to Olympus.
Trust, a mighty god has gone, Restraint has gone from men,
and the Graces, my friend, have abandoned the earth.
Men's judicial oaths are no longer to be trusted, nor does anyone
revere the immortal gods; the race of pious men has perished and
men no longer recognize the rules of conduct or acts of piety.[15]

[...]
It is also argued that hope was simply one of the evils in the jar, the false kind of hope, and was no good for humanity, since, later in the poem, Hesiod writes that hope is empty (498) and no good (500) and makes humanity lazy by taking away their industriousness, making them prone to evil.[29]

Quoting Benj96

Some might say having hope in a hopeless place is the greatest of all irrationalities, a pointless, fruitless effort, that one ought to give up hope, but if its all they have left what would they have after that? Nothing. Non existence. Submittal to death. Oblivion.

Indeed. If we are to take a 'hopeless place' as being of significant suffering e.g. unjustly being held and tortured in a prison, then for sure some might despair while others are hopeful.
In the excellent article I linked to earlier, Chignell uses the example of the film The Shawshank Redemption's characters Andy and Red to illustrate his theory:

Quoting Amity

https://academic.oup.com/pq/advance-article/doi/10.1093/pq/pqac010/6582893
Abstract
Most elpistologists now agree that hope for a specific outcome involves more than just desire plus the presupposition that the outcome is possible. This paper argues that the additional element of hope is a disposition to focus on the desired outcome in a certain way. I first survey the debate about the nature of hope in the recent literature, offer objections to some important competing accounts, and describe and defend the view that hope involves a kind of focus or attention. I then suggest that this account makes sense of the intuitive thought that there are moral and pragmatic norms on hope that go beyond the norms on desires and modal presuppositions. I conclude by considering some key questions.

[...]

Andy desires to be free and believes it's just barely possible. But he is also disposed to attend to the imagined escape as possible. Red desires freedom to the same degree, and takes it to be possible in just the same way. But he is disposed to focus on the outcome in a different way—under the aspect of its improbability. We hear this difference in the way they intone the same proposition:

Andy: ‘It's just a one-in-a-million chance, but IT’S POSSIBLE!’

Red: ‘It's possible, but it's JUST A ONE-IN-A-MILLION CHANCE!’

— Focus Theory of Hope - Andrew Chignell

Quoting Benj96

And hope I would imagine is a constant we ought not to undervalue, as losing it only brings forth utter despair.

Yes, because nothing much seems to have changed since the days of the 6th-century BC Greek elegiac poet Theognis of Megara!

I'll end with this from wiki:

A less pessimistic interpretation understands the myth to say: countless evils fled Pandora's jar and plague human existence; the hope that humanity might be able to master these evils remains imprisoned inside the jar.
Life is not hopeless, but human beings are hopelessly human.

Quoting Amity

Interesting point of view. It reminds me of the Pandora's Box myth where Hope is left behind after other blessings or curses have flown out (depending on interpretation).

Haha yes! It crossed my mind also as I was witting it. Your extracts that you cited are very apt in regard to this discussion.

Quoting Manuel

If we had no such thing as music or books, or plays and colors and tastes, well then, life would be indeed be a waste.

Your words made me think of those suffering from different types of sensory disabilities affecting sight, hearing, smell, touch, taste or spatial awareness.

Quoting Aruma - Types of sensory disabilities

As 95% of the information about the world around us comes from our sight and hearing, a sensory disability can affect how a person gathers information from the world around them.
[...]
The effects of autism are wide ranging and can include difficulties in social interaction and communication, restricted and repetitive interests and behaviours, and sensitivity to sensory experiences – noise, light, touch etc. As autism can be very variable, the word ‘spectrum’ describes the range of difficulties that someone with autism may experience.

Life might be more limiting and challenging without the arts and sensual experiences but can we ever say that it is a waste? I think not. It is thanks to those who care; hold pragmatic hope and take action that life can be improved.

Reply to Benj96 Thanks for joining in; much appreciated :up:

Quoting 180 Proof

For me, she's the epitome of courage

Absolutely. I didn't follow up on all your quotes but this being the first...it struck me with force.
You have a way of picking out from your catalogue of music, books, quotes - gems of joy and more.

Your choice is never random; it is exactly what is needed and fitting. I think you must know your storage system inside out! Where and when did you find the story of Emma Goldman?

Quoting Amity

but can we ever say that it is a waste? I think not. It is thanks to those who care; hold pragmatic hope and take action that life can be improved.

Not a waste per se. But comparatively less rich for some people.

But in cases of sensory deprivation, there is hope as our experience of the world is tremendously rich.

I mean, if we do permanently lose the faculties that allows for consciousness, that is a case of a life that's over, for all practical purposes.

Quoting Manuel

I mean, if we do permanently lose the faculties that allows for consciousness, that is a case of a life that's over, for all practical purposes.

Permanent loss of consciousness would be brain death. And so, yes, life over.

However, are you talking about a persistent vegetative state or being in a coma? Someone being kept on life support...do they and their friends and family hold on to hope?
Yes, I think so. To some extent.
That of course will be influenced by information given to them by the medical team
Or perhaps other counsellors, including the religious.
I think the problem then, like any health issue, relates to false hopes being raised.
A difficult time for all concerned.
In the case of a terminal illness, prayers or hopes can change to that of a speedy and painless release.

Quoting Amity

Thanks for joining in; much appreciated :up:

Any time Amity :) ill be sure to come back with more musings.

Quoting universeness

How do you demonstrate it?
— Amity
In a myriad of ways, like those exemplars I just mentioned above. But such examples can also include, authoring a thread about hope on a philosophy website.

Hah. Yes. In starting any exploratory thread, we hope for the best and prepare for the worst!
I'm glad that there have been so many helpful and thoughtful contributions and interactions.
I never know where it will lead or what I will learn. It can be fascinating...

Quoting universeness

I wonder if love/desire ( or even hate) is necessary before any hope can take place.
— Amity

I think it's hope that is fundamental. Why breathe or eat or drink, why not just stop and die? We hope that the next moment will be ok, that's why.

But isn't it the desire to survive that is the driver? The love of self and others. That is what leads to hope in every kind of way...insignificant, moderate, and highly significant. And yes, hope is what keeps us moving on. Hmm. Perhaps desire is both hope and love depending on degree and duration.

From the article I linked to:

Note, further, that the same outcome can be the object of banal, insignificant hope for some people, moderately significant hope for others, and apex-level, life-structuring hope for still others. For example, the sentence

I hope that it will not rain tomorrow

uttered by you while planning a picnic expresses a banal hope. Uttered by me when the betrothed at an outdoor wedding, it expresses a quite significant hope. Uttered by residents of the community on the banks of a raging, overflowing river, the sentence expresses a still more significant hope. The significance, again, is partly a function of how invested the hoper is in the outcome. This explains why significant hopes are typically accompanied by intensity of speratic feeling.

Another and very different way in which we speak of hope refers not to an episodic state but to a broad existential stance: an anticipatory openness to or embrace of an indeterminate range of possible futures. Cheshire Calhoun describes such basal hope as ‘the phenomenological idea of the future’ (2018: 74). Basal hope has no specific object, does not involve a disposition to have discrete mental episodes, and is not typically under our control. Authors ranging from Calhoun to the Christian existentialist Gabriel Marcel to the Jewish Marxist Ernst Bloch have depicted basal hope as an essential element of finite agency.5

***

Quoting universeness

Carl made many, many, many hope filled statements, such as:
"We embarked on our journey to the stars with a question first framed in the childhood of our species and in each generation, asked anew, with undiminished wonder: What are the stars? Exploration is in our nature. We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars."

"Better by far to embrace the hard truth, than a reassuring fable. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal."

Thanks for the quote.
So, undiminished life wonder with hope to find some answers to our questions along the way.
To satisfy our wonderlust...and tell our stories...thanks for sharing yours :sparkle:

Reply to Benj96 OK. Look forward in hope :cool:

Quoting Amity

What I didn't understand was how it was unnecessary. Emotions are part of who we are.
We are not necessarily 'attached' to hope or fear. Perhaps it is a fear or anxiety related to a potential consequence (success/failure) of entertaining hope that causes some to deny they have any.

I just came across this, that says more clearly what I was failing to say very well:

[quote=J.Krishnamurti]A mind that is indifferent, is aware of the shoddiness of our civilization, the shoddiness of our thought, the ugly relationships; it is aware of the street, of the beauty of a tree, or of a lovely face, a smile; and it neither denies it nor accepts it, but merely observes - not intellectually, not coldly, but with that warm affectionate indifference. Observation is not detachment, because there is no attachment. It is only when the mind is attached - to your house, to the family, to some job - , that you talk about detachment. But, you know, when you are indifferent, there is a sweetness to it, there is a perfume to it, there is a quality of tremendous energy - this may not be the meaning of that word in the dictionary. One has to be indifferent - to health, to loneliness, to what people say or do not say; indifferent whether you succeed or do not succeed; indifferent to authority.

Now, if you observe, you hear somebody is shooting, making a lot of noise with a gun. You can very easily get used to it; probably you have already got used to it, and you turn a deaf ear - that is not indifference. Indifference comes into being when you listen to that noise with no resistance, go with that noise, ride on that noise infinitely. Then that noise does not affect you, does not pervert you, does not make you indifferent. Then you listen to every noise in the world - the noise of your children, of your wife, of the birds, the noise of the chatter the politicians make - , you listen to it completely with indifference and therefore with understanding.[/quote]

Public Talk 6 Bombay (Mumbai), India - 07 March 1962

Quoting Amity

What is it that you think 'hope' is that means you feel you have to stop doing or eliminate it?

Part of it is what unenlightened wrote:

Quoting unenlightened

One projects oneself into the future, and identifies with the imagined future self. Thus hope and fear arise together as acts of imagination - one fears the worst and hopes for the best.

And part of it is that I experience them in similar manners. They both feel like intrusions, weaknesses, distractions; causing me to pay attention to the wrong things.

Thank you for the quote and reference. I read the whole talk and I really don't know how to respond.
It starts off:
Quoting Krishnamurti - talk 6 - Bombay 1962

I want to go this evening into the question of death. I would like to talk about it as age and maturity, time and negation, which is love.

There is much about this I query but will focus on the term 'indifference'.
At first, I thought the 'indifference' referred to was similar to the Stoic concept but I don't think that is the case. A brief look:

Quoting Daily stoic - indifference

Of all the loaded words in Stoic philosophy, “indifferent” is one of the most provocative. Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and Epictetus each tell us that the Stoic is indifferent to external things, indifferent to wealth, indifferent to pain, indifferent to winning, indifferent to hope and dreams and everything else.
[...]
The point was to be strong enough that there wasn’t a need to need things to go in a particular direction. Seneca for his part would say that obviously it’s better to be rich than poor, tall than short, but the Stoic was indifferent when fate actually dealt out its hand on the matter. Because the Stoic was strong enough to make good of it—whatever it was.

[my emphasis]

Again, I note the 'indifference' to hope.

***
Now, from Krishnamurti's public talk, following on from your quote:

Quoting Krishnamurti - Public talk 6 Bombay 1962

A mind that would understand time and continuity, must be indifferent to time and not seek to fill that space which you call time with amusement, with worship, with noise, with reading, with going to the film, by every means that you are doing now. And by filling it with thought, with action, with amusement, with excitement, with drink, with woman, with man, with God, with your knowledge, you have given it continuity; and so, you will never know what it is to die.
[...]
If you have cut everything around you, every psychological root hope, despair, guilt, anxiety, success, attachment - , then out of this operation, this denial of this whole structure of society, not knowing what will happen to you when you are operating completely, out of this total denial, there is the energy to face that which you call death. The very dying to everything that you have known, deliberately to cut away everything that you have known, is dying. You try it some time - not as a conscious, deliberate, virtuous act to find out - , just try it, play with it; for you learn more out of play than out of deliberate conscious effort. When you so deny, you have destroyed; and you must destroy; for, surely, out of destruction purity can come - an unspotted mind.

[my emphasis]

It seems that we will never know what it is to die, unless we deny continuity and the whole structure of society. But this 'dying' to everything we have known, is dying? We must destroy because from destruction comes purity - an unspotted mind.

We have to be 'indifferent' to time and not seek to fill it with anything resembling everyday human life, is that right? To what end? A pure blank mind?
Why would we want that? There seems to be an attachment to the destruction of thought.
'What is it to die' is a question that cannot be thought of? Then how come the talk? A mind spotted...

I'm not sure I can reassure you that my understanding has improved.
Ironically, the talk filled my time in reading and thinking...perhaps I should have let it go :chin:

Quoting T Clark

One projects oneself into the future, and identifies with the imagined future self. Thus hope and fear arise together as acts of imagination - one fears the worst and hopes for the best.
— unenlightened

And part of it is that I experience them in similar manners. They both feel like intrusions, weaknesses, distractions; causing me to pay attention to the wrong things.

Thanks for your response. I will have to consider this later. Tired now. :yawn:

Reply to Amity Thanks. My memory is pretty good but often I confiirm quotes, etc with Google rather than pulling books or whatever from my stacks. A lifetime of study and immersing myself in the arts have lacerated me deeply with interesting trivia and topical quotations. It's been decades, for instance, since I'd read Emma Goldman's Living My Life or studied Nietzsche works and yet the right context inspires their voices to return to me and meet the moment (e.g. your thoughtful OP). Anyway, glad you appreciate the references.

Quoting T Clark

What is it that you think 'hope' is that means you feel you have to stop doing or eliminate it?
— Amity

Part of it is what unenlightened wrote:

One projects oneself into the future, and identifies with the imagined future self. Thus hope and fear arise together as acts of imagination - one fears the worst and hopes for the best.
— unenlightened

And part of it is that I experience them in similar manners. They both feel like intrusions, weaknesses, distractions; causing me to pay attention to the wrong things.

The first part of my question was:
What is it that you think 'hope' is?
I've had a look at wordhippo:

Quoting wordhippo - another word for hope

Noun
A belief or wish that something either can or will happen
The possibility or likelihood of some future event occurring
A feeling of optimism
A person or thing that is a source of hope
A strong desire
A (possible) course of action that is resorted to
A cheerful and optimistic attitude or disposition
Long and careful consideration or thought
Reliance on someone or something for financial support
The potential for achievement or excellence
An unattainable or fanciful hope or scheme
The capacity of people to maintain belief in an institution or a goal, or even in oneself and others
The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it isn’t, invoking a direct similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described
Fantasy view of situation
A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or another deity
The action of giving someone support, confidence, or hope
An action or task to be performed

Verb
To expectantly want something to happen
To intend to do something
To have a strong want or desire
To depend on with full trust or confidence
To try subtly or deviously to elicit a response or some information from someone

***
Also, in an earlier reply to @Jack Cummins:
I wonder what those most critical of hope would say about the opposite state. That of living a life of 'hopelessness'. It seems some see hope as a positive virtue, others not so much.

Previously I used the word 'despair' as the opposite of hope. Turns out there are more d-words.

https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/hopelessness.html
Quoting wordhippo - hopelessness

Context:
The loss of hope or confidence [*]
Ineptitude or a lack of competence
Pointlessness or uselessness
A state of disapproval or feeling of unfulfillment
The state or quality of being impractical

[*] D-words in addition to 'despair' include:
depression, dejection, despondence, downheartedness, defeatism, desolation.
***

To return to your post or position as to your experience ( of both hope and fear)

...feel like intrusions, weaknesses, distractions; causing me to pay attention to the wrong things.

I appreciate that as a response to my OP question:
Quoting Amity

What is your experience of hope as a feeling, action or philosophical concept?

But I have still to improve my understanding. Do you only see hope as a negative feeling?

How is hope - or hoping - an intrusion/weakness or distraction?
What does 'weakness' mean here?
How does hope act to result in, or lead to, a position whereby attention is paid to the wrong things?
What are the wrong things?

So many questions, so little time. There's more to come. Later...
Thanks to all for engaging :sparkle:

I hope that it will not rain tomorrow

uttered by you while planning a picnic expresses a banal hope. Uttered by me when the betrothed at an outdoor wedding, it expresses a quite significant hope. Uttered by residents of the community on the banks of a raging, overflowing river, the sentence expresses a still more significant hope. The significance, again, is partly a function of how invested the hoper is in the outcome. This explains why significant hopes are typically accompanied by intensity of speratic feeling.

Don't forget, hope as essential as it is, can be conflicting. Many a farmer may conflict with the hope mentioned above. I personally love to walk in the rain. How welcome is the rain when it's been too hot.
How justified might it be to utter a hope such as 'I hope I die.' Or 'I hope your die.'
If I am suffering beyond help, then my hope for death is warranted. My hope for the death of another is also warranted if they are my constant abuser.
This is one of the most interesting parts of the human experience, when hopes clash!
The hopes of the many, the hopes of the few or the hopes of the one.

Quoting universeness

This is one of the most interesting parts of the human experience, when hopes clash!
The hopes of the many, the hopes of the few or the hopes of the one.

Yes. 'Interesting' to say the least!
There's so much to this topic. I've been turning my attention to other perspectives.
Related to health in particular - our experience of covid and more.
Talk again later :cool:

In the meantime, I'll leave this here:
https://aeon.co/essays/true-hope-takes-a-hard-look-at-reality-then-makes-a-plan

Quoting Aeon essay - True hope

Likewise, the scientists who valiantly struggle to end the COVID-19 pandemic or the patients with cancer who choose to undergo treatments with painful side-effects know the road will be hard, but they push forward because they’ve found goals worth keeping their ‘hands on the throttle’ for. That’s the source of their hope.

Hope, at its heart, is a perception. Unlike most perceptions, however, this one has the possibility of creating reality. Most of the time, we think of reality as creating our perceptions. Look around you right now and notice the objects in your environment. They all exist in reality before you perceive them. But hope is a special kind of perception: it’s a perception of something that doesn’t yet exist. It’s a perception of what is possible.

Reply to Amity
The idea of despair and hope is also related to the experience of depression and suicidality. I have experienced depression at times and have nursed people who were suicidal or had made suicide attempts. To some extent depression and suicidal ideas may be seen as a chemical aspect of fear, negativity and loss of hope. Antidepressants may be prescribed and in some people bring about a chemical restart of hope. But, it may not be that simple, involving life experiences and the existential aspect of despair.

Some of the literature on depression and despair is interesting, especially with the different models ranging from the psychological to the existential. Camus's 'The Myth of Sisyphus', is one interesting depiction of existential despair and Alvarez's, 'The Savage God' looks at the experience of despair and suicidality in literature. There is so much within the field of psychology. One aspect which may be important in psychiatry is the nature of bipolar mood disorders. While some there may be a biochemical component it does also involve such swings from complete hopelessness to a sense of exaggerated or inflated sense of optimism. The two poles of pessimism vs optimism go to the extremes.

One discussion which is also important is from James Hillman in, 'Suicide and the Soul'. What he argued is that the extreme state of suicidal despair, while being a sense of wishing for an end but it often may encompass a wish for transformation. The interplay between hopelessness and the wish for transformation has also been explored by Thomas More in his, 'The Dark Night of the Soul', which looks at the twilight state of despair and its navigation in relation to transformational states, which links the whole encounter with the symbolic demons of despair to the angels of hope and how these are experienced in human experiences.
.

Quoting Amity

How is hope - or hoping - an intrusion/weakness or distraction?

That's how I experience it, how it feels to me. If we're looking for an explanation of that, I think what @unenlightened wrote is a good one.

Reply to T Clark OK.
Do you mean the Krishnamurti talk?

Quoting Jack Cummins

The idea of despair and hope is also related to the experience of depression and suicidality. I have experienced depression at times and have nursed people who were suicidal or had made suicide attempts. To some extent depression and suicidal ideas may be seen as a chemical aspect of fear, negativity and loss of hope. Antidepressants may be prescribed and in some people bring about a chemical restart of hope. But, it may not be that simple, involving life experiences and the existential aspect of despair.

Yes. Grateful for all your thoughts and personal insights.

Quoting Jack Cummins

There is so much within the field of psychology

Yes, psychology seems to have a higher profile/interest in this aspect of human life than does philosophy.
I don't intend to spend much more time in this discussion. However, just for balance here's an article examining the downside to hope:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/201807/7-downsides-hope

Quoting Jack Cummins

The interplay between hopelessness and the wish for transformation has also been explored by Thomas More in his, 'The Dark Night of the Soul', which looks at the twilight state of despair and its navigation in relation to transformational states, which links the whole encounter with the symbolic demons of despair to the angels of hope and how these are experienced in human experiences.

That sounds fascinating. Although I'm not sure about the extremes of demonising despair or the angelic aspect of hope. Does the book suggest this?

I doubt I will get round to reading all your reading suggestions but someone else might :sparkle:

Reply to Amity
I like W.H. Auden because he approaches the question through our incapacity. The poem Villanelle:

Time can say nothing but I told you so,
Time only knows the price we have to pay;
If I could tell you, I would let you know.
If we should weep when clowns put on their show,
If we should stumble when musicians play,
Time can say nothing but I told you so.
There are no fortunes to be told, although
Because I love you more than I can say,
If I could tell you, I would let you know.
The winds must come from somewhere when they blow,
There must be reasons why the leaves decay;
Time can say nothing but I told you so.
Perhaps the roses really want to grow,
The vision seriously intends to stay;
If I could tell you, I would let you know.
Suppose the lions all get up and go,
And all the brooks and soldiers run away?
Time can say nothing but I told you so.
If I could tell you, I would let you know.

This is different from the confidence of the Tao Te Ching passage or accepting a ground based upon psychological factors. Wanting to talk about it is alive and uncertain. A final word is a kind of despair.

Excerpt from an old post (sans 'psychologism' creeping up in this thread)
Quoting 180 Proof

The pessimistic stance, which Does Not Entail 'miserabilism' 'cynicism' or 'futilism', cultivates courage – sing the blues and dance! – at the expense of hope (to wit: “There is an infinite amount of hope in the universe ... but not for us.” ~Franz Kafka)

Thank you for the poem. Another day, another new experience :sparkle:

Quoting Paine

This is different from the confidence of the Tao Te Ching passage or accepting a ground based upon psychological factors. Wanting to talk about it is alive and uncertain. A final word is a kind of despair.

Not sure what you mean by the 'confidence' of the TTC verse. Do you mean there is a sense of absolute certainty; almost a dogmatic statement and attitude? A 'final word' as to the right way of looking at the world and how to live?

Quoting Paine

I like W.H. Auden because he approaches the question through our incapacity.

The question of what? Hope, life, love - the passing of time revealing all? How we can't tell what the consequences of our thought, feeling, and actions will be? The reason for the season?

Where do psychological factors enter the picture as a basis for acceptance/rejection of hope?
There are 'none so blind as those who will not see'?

Perhaps some poetry is better than others in helping us see - by opening up different perspectives.

Time can say nothing but I told you so,
Time only knows the price we have to pay;
If I could tell you, I would let you know.

Some people can't handle life's uncertainties; they need some form of an absolute answer to live by.
But having this kind of certainty or finality - does it help?
Or is it as you say - a kind of despair not recognised?

Quoting 180 Proof

Excerpt from an old post (sans 'psychologism' creeping up in this thread)
The pessimistic stance, which Does Not Entail 'miserabilism' 'cynicism' or 'futilism', cultivates courage – sing the blues and dance! – at the expense of hope (to wit: “There is an infinite amount of hope in the universe ... but not for us.” ~Franz Kafka)
— 180 Proof

Never sure what 'psychologism' means.
: a tendency to interpret events or arguments in subjective terms, or to exaggerate the relevance of psychological factors.

If someone interprets the case for or against 'hope' in subjective terms, what is wrong with that?
Perhaps a focus on the negative 'feeling' of hope is somewhat narrow. The apparent avoidance of a broader view is unfortunate but there is no need/desire to delve deep into someone's psyche.
However, isn't philosophy about persuasion to look and think again - by encouraging a clear thinking process?
This includes questions about resulting actions/behaviour; any implications of seeing hope as hollow.

***

How does a pessimistic stance cultivate courage?
Do you mean that someone who detects life's problems is more likely to act and change what is wrong?
That can take courage if they speak out against the status quo.
Why would this be 'at the expense of hope'?

Reply to Amity The TTC verse points to a way to avoid the risky nature of 'going up and down the ladder'. Love of persons takes that risk. A lover will always be a day late and a dollar short, wanting to tell the future in a country bereft of oracles or instructions. Taking the risk does not accept the uncertainty with resigned patience. We would go past the boundaries if we could.

The desire to trespass shapes the discovery of what the boundaries are. The utility of strictly psychological maps benefits from the TTC perspective of: "When you stand with your two feet on the ground." There is a tension between the views that will never be resolved. But one can see that Auden is less absolute about the difference than, say, John Donne, for example. Donne says:

Quoting A Valediction Forbidding Mourning

Dull sublunary lovers' love
(Whose soul is sense) cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
Those things which elemented it.

But we, by a love so much refined
That our selves know not what it is,
Inter-assured of the mind,
Care less, eyes, lips, and hands to miss.

In Auden's country, that is a claim we cannot make.