What does "irony" mean?
This from a recent thread by Introbert:
Quoting introbert
I have similar feelings about irony, although Id call mine affection rather than fixation. Its something Ive thought about a lot and Id like to discuss what it means.
Here are some definitions of irony from the web:
I found a website that had some interesting things to say about irony:
Quoting LitCharts
The Wikipedia article about irony is also very good:
[i]Henry Watson Fowler, in The King's English, says, "any definition of ironythough hundreds might be given, and very few of them would be acceptedmust include this, that the surface meaning and the underlying meaning of what is said are not the same." Also, Eric Partridge, in Usage and Abusage, writes that "Irony consists in stating the contrary of what is meant."
The use of irony may require the concept of a double audience. Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage says:
Irony is a form of utterance that postulates a double audience, consisting of one party that hearing shall hear & shall not understand, & another party that, when more is meant than meets the ear, is aware both of that more & of the outsiders' incomprehension
The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics distinguishes between the following types of irony:
A sign in the Baker Street subway station in London
Theres a lot here and Im sure theres a lot more to say, but Ive always found definitions of irony unsatisfying. For me, theres something missing. I remember my senior year in high school learning about the dual nature of light. The feeling of holding two contradictory ideas in my mind at the same time. Being pulled in two different directions but not being able to choose one over the other to resolve the contradiction. That is the feeling of irony for me.
Quoting introbert
I have confessed that I have a fixation on the concept of irony. To me irony is a cheap and easy way, a fix, to exercise the part of my brain that seems to demand philosophical thought. My thoughts on irony extend to its nature as a form of argument, an antagonism, an object of confusion, an element of humor, a threat to objectivity, a method of subjectivism and more.
I have similar feelings about irony, although Id call mine affection rather than fixation. Its something Ive thought about a lot and Id like to discuss what it means.
Here are some definitions of irony from the web:
- The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
- An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
- Incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result.
- A condition of affairs or events of a character opposite to what was, or might naturally be, expected; a contradictory outcome of events as if in mockery of the promise and fitness of things.
I found a website that had some interesting things to say about irony:
Quoting LitCharts
[i]Irony is a literary device or event in which how things seem to be is in fact very different from how they actually are. If this seems like a loose definition, don't worryit is. Irony is a broad term that encompasses three different types of irony, each with their own specific definition: verbal irony, dramatic irony, and situational irony. Most of the time when people use the word irony, they're actually referring to one of these specific types of irony
In the last twenty years or so, the term "ironic" has become popular to describe an attitude of detachment or subversive humor, like that of someone who wears a Christmas sweater as a joke. This more recent meaning of ironic is not entirely consistent with the original meaning of irony [/i]
The Wikipedia article about irony is also very good:
[i]Henry Watson Fowler, in The King's English, says, "any definition of ironythough hundreds might be given, and very few of them would be acceptedmust include this, that the surface meaning and the underlying meaning of what is said are not the same." Also, Eric Partridge, in Usage and Abusage, writes that "Irony consists in stating the contrary of what is meant."
The use of irony may require the concept of a double audience. Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage says:
Irony is a form of utterance that postulates a double audience, consisting of one party that hearing shall hear & shall not understand, & another party that, when more is meant than meets the ear, is aware both of that more & of the outsiders' incomprehension
The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics distinguishes between the following types of irony:
- Classical irony: Referring to the origins of irony in Ancient Greek comedy, and the way classical and medieval rhetoricians delineated the term.
- Romantic irony: A self-aware and self-critical form of fiction.
- Cosmic irony: A contrast between the absolute and the relative, the general and the individual, which Hegel expressed by the phrase, "general [irony] of the world."[13]
- Verbal irony: A contradiction between a statement's stated and intended meaning
- Situational irony: The disparity of intention and result; when the result of an action is contrary to the desired or expected effect.
- Dramatic irony and tragic irony: A disparity of awareness between an actor and an observer: when words and actions possess significance that the listener or audience understands, but the speaker or character does not. It is most often used when the author causes a character to speak or act erroneously, out of ignorance of some portion of the truth of which the audience is aware. In tragic irony, the audience knows the character is making a mistake, even as the character is making it.
- Meta irony: When an ironic or sarcastic joke is presented through an ironic lens, or "being ironic about being ironic" and even meta ironic statements are ironicised
A sign in the Baker Street subway station in London
Theres a lot here and Im sure theres a lot more to say, but Ive always found definitions of irony unsatisfying. For me, theres something missing. I remember my senior year in high school learning about the dual nature of light. The feeling of holding two contradictory ideas in my mind at the same time. Being pulled in two different directions but not being able to choose one over the other to resolve the contradiction. That is the feeling of irony for me.
Comments (72)
Irony does feature in philosophy - from Socrates' ironic stance of 'knowing nothing' to Kierkegaard; On the Concept of Irony with Continual Reference to Socrates, Rorty; Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity.
Rorty developed his own word, 'ironism'. Wiki has this on it:
[i]Rorty cited three conditions that constitute the ironist perspective and these show how the notion undercuts the rationality of conservative, reactionary, and totalitarian positions by maintaining the contingency of all beliefs.[1] These conditions are:
- She has radical and continuing doubts about the final vocabulary she currently uses, because she has been impressed by other vocabularies, vocabularies taken as final by people or books she has encountered;
- She realizes that argument phrased in her present vocabulary can neither underwrite nor dissolve these doubts;
- Insofar as she philosophizes about her situation, she does not think that her vocabulary is closer to reality than others, that it is in touch with a power not herself.
?Richard Rorty, Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1989, p.73
In Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity, Rorty argues that Proust, Nietzsche, Foucault, Heidegger, Derrida, and Nabokov, among others, all exemplify ironism to different extents. It is also said that ironism and liberalism are compatible, particularly if such liberalism has been altered by pragmatic reductionism.[/i]
Quoting T Clark
That happens all the time and is not remarkable. They all seem to be missing a reflexive element that differentiates ironic disparity from any old mundane The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.
I mentioned in another thread the Star Trek Voyager story line of Borg drones having a virtual space in which they were their pre-assimilation individual selves. The irony is: they could create this illusion of separate identities only through the collective consciousness of the hive mind which they were escaping.
See what I mean? In a more immediate situation that might be familiar to many of us: I bought two little magnets for the mailbox lid. I didn't get 'round to fixing it for a while, and in that time I forgot where I put those magnets, thinking: I'll put them in a place I'm sure to remember when I need them.
Or, as my neighbour often says: "I put it in a safe place. I'll never see it again!"
You described Irony as directed inwardly. That internal ironic feeling could be rationalized as simply realizing that things are not as they seem, or as they ought to be ideally. But emotionally, the feeling may be somewhere between Enlightenment and Disappointment. Either a private joke, or a personal farce.
When the logical or physical contradiction is expressed outwardly, it could be intended as a shared feeling of recognition of what's wrong with a particular situation. That's how stand-up comedians establish empathy with the audience. Satire is when we're all in on the joke.
But, when the conflict between what is, and what seems to be -- or should be -- is directed at a particular person or group, the humor is not intended to be shared, but to hurt the target. Judgmental Sarcasm is an ad hominem attack, which varies from a pinch to a bleeding wound. Unfortunately, forum posters too often mistake Sarcasm as a philosophical argument. Isn't that ironic? :joke:
irony :
Reserve irony for situations where there's a gap between reality and expectations, especially when such a gap is created for dramatic or humorous effect.
satire :
Satire is a way of making fun of people by using silly or exaggerated language. Politicians are easy targets for satire, especially when they're acting self-righteous or hypocritical.
sarcasm :
Irony employed in the service of mocking or attacking someone is sarcasm. Saying "Oh, you're soooo clever!" with sarcasm means the target is really just a dunderhead.
https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/chooseyourwords/irony-satire-sarcasm/
Blame Alanis Morrisette.
Apocryphal has Bill Bryson suggesting that 40% of Americans do understand irony. That's what, a hundred million folk? Enough for to support a market in ironic humour but not enough for America to claim an understanding of irony.
Quoting Tom Storm
So subtle...
Quoting Tom Storm
I recognize that other people think about the world and use language differently than I do and I don't think my language is more in touch with some sort of absolute reality than others. But that doesn't cause me any doubts about my language. I guess I don't see the irony in this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
I don't fully understand it but I think irony in philosophy might be the gap between our metaphysical system building and reality. All our systems being constructed from language and never quite making direct contact with the world. But this all sounds like postmodernism.
Quoting Banno
Interesting. That comports to my personal experience of the Americans I know. :wink: Is it the other 60% who are susceptible to Donald Trump and don't realize he is an ironist and performance artist, a little like our own Sir Les Patterson?
As I noted in my post, the definitions miss something I think is important.
I see irony as an experience, something mental, not as an objective or physical event.
Yes, that's what I was on about also. The fact that the outcome is different from, or even opposite to, the intent is merely unfortunate, and sometimes comical to the onlooker. It's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the intention because of the intention.
I often found it ironic how those I knew in Buddhist, mediation circles would talk about shedding attachments and getting closer to enlightenment whilst simultaneously bonking each other stupid, investing in real estate and buying luxury cars.
In Christian circles this used to be called hypocrisy and I wonder if hypocrisy, when viewed from a particular perspective, is just irony as praxis.
Is it necessarily ironic? Perhaps they were not attached to those activities, but simply enjoyed them (and were not attached to their enjoyment, either :joke: ).
Quoting Tom Storm
Only if it's intentional. :wink:
Intention confusion? Perhaps "it's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the apparent intention because of the real intention" ?
No, it's just [plain hypocrisy. And dishonesty. Quoting Janus
No, that's just duplicity. SOP for PR, business and some politicians - nothing that needs a special category. .
Quoting Vera Mont
So, you're saying that irony (the unintended outcome) is only ever unintentional, or what?
If so, that seems to be an impoverished definition of irony.
I've no idea what sarcasm is.
You set a trap for a rat. A squirrel falls into it. Unintended and not the least bit ironic.
You set a trap for your rival. He doesn't fall into it, but a complete stranger does. Bad luck for him, good luck for your rival, failure for you, but no irony.
The operative word there was "because". Hoist with your own petard.
("The phrase's meaning is that a bomb-maker is blown ("hoist") off the ground by his own bomb (a "petard" is a small explosive device), and indicates an ironic reversal, or poetic justice.")
You set a trap for your rival. He walks past it, totally unaware. You wonder how that could have happened. You go see why the trap didn't go off. It goes off and catches you.
What happened to you happened only because of what you intended to happen to the other person.
.
Satire, I'm told, is "an obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness."
Sounds like a form we could amusingly resume.
Interesting comment mon ami! :up:
The AC overheated? :chin:
I think it's when you apply irony with a sledge hammer.
Of course, there is also conscious irony, where the apparent intention is not the real intention.
I don't know anything about it, can you define it for me?
I would like to tender my Apology. :snicker:
That's the one.
It's a powerful tool for any writer to quickly identify thematic and dramatic conflicts and to express them in both funny and interesting payoffs.
Im surprised that no one has so far stated this obvious definition: Irony means having the quality of iron. For example, The Iron Age was very irony.
Yes, this to me can be an ironic comment - without being sarcastic, satirical, or hypocritical. Knee-slapper though it may be.
Sarcasm makes use of mockery whereas irony does not. All satires I know of make use of irony whereas not all ironies are satirical. The hypocrite engages in a form of doublethink in which they hold or act on two contrary views as though both were true or correct, whereas the ironist knows full well of the intended mismatch.
My own take is that the best cases of rhetorical and dramatic irony can be likened to an intelligent blond playing the bimbo, this so as to get their way with minimal resistance from those who presume the blond to be unintelligent or unimportant, hence from others who thereby remain ignorant of whats in fact occurring: Those in the know - be it the rhetorician, the dramatist, or even fate for some folk, this in addition to the onlooking audience, if any - get that whats at hand is a concealed means of actualizing an end toward which those not in the know are being led without their immediate awareness.
Socratic irony might well be a misnomer - in that Socrates deemed himself wiser than his opponent in not thinking to know that which he did not know, and theres no definitive reason to presume Socrates insincere in so affirming. If so, Socrates never feigned ignorance to begin with.
Still, I kind of like the definition first offered in this post. Has a far more definitive ring to it by contrast to the ambiguous dictionary definitions so far here discussed. :smile:
By astutely contributing to this thread you have ironically ended it.
In defence of Alanis...
The notion of cosmic irony (or the irony of fate) might be stretched to cover the unlucky situations that she describes in the song.
The gods bestowed the winning ticket upon a man whom they had already condemned to death the next day, so that he could not enjoy the money. They do it all the time, subverting our hopes and expectations just for a laugh.
Alternatively, the fact that her examples are not ironic is what is ironic.
Quoting Jamal
That's my preferred theory...
Quoting Banno
The outcomes of all those scenarios were unintentional; only one was ironic. The one that jumped up and bit you in the ass.
I wish!
But, now that I think of it, I can't think of a witty philosopher. Wittgenstein, of course, was notoriously lacking in humor.
Bertrand Russell was hilarious.
It's like a mode of speeeeeech
That you just can't define...
Really? I had no idea. Perhaps he wasn't a philosopher, then.
Yes...well...
Quoting javra
Perhaps I should have specified we are talking about a noun, not an adjective. Anyway, is your example irony? I don't think so. Maybe that's the best way of defining irony - by talking about what it's not.
Hey, @180 Proof, what's that word for defining something by talking about what it's not?
Quoting javra
Sarcasm is often ironic, but doesn't have to be. It only has to be nasty.
I think you'd like his Wisdom of the West. Lots of laughs, although the purpose of the book is serious.
Thanks. I'll take a look.
Are you saying that all fiction is ironic? Let me think about that... Is it ironic that we know a character is not real while they have to act as if they are?
Your post reminded me of a movie - "Stranger than Fiction." In it, a man, played by Will Ferrell, finds that he is living the life of a character in a story being written by an author, played by Emma Thompson. They meet and discuss the plot and how it is affecting the man's life. A pretty good movie. Amusing. I guess that's dramatic irony, although in this case, the character knows things the author did not intend for him to know. Which brings up "The Truman Show."
There's another kind of irony. I'm not sure whether it would be considered dramatic irony or not. That's when a character, narrator, or plot device draws attention to the fact that this situation is artificial, e.g. if a character turns to the audience and makes a comment like Puck in "Midsummer Night's Dream" saying "What fools these mortals be." Or in "Blazing Saddles" where the characters ride out of the story and into the movie studio. I remember a great TV version of "Nickolas Nickleby" where a group of characters from the book look down on the action from above and make comments, including people who have already died in the story.
In that regard, are all musicals ironic?
How is this relevant?
Hmm, the definition provided can be an instance of feigned ignorance intended to confound or provoke. Its intended meaning could be that the search for a definitive definition of irony might be a wild-goose chase. A playing the bimbo deal.
Else, one can take the face value intent of the definition at its word, in which case it could not quality as irony.
Yes. I was trying to distinguish the inner feeling of Irony (private experience) from projecting that feeling toward others, as in Satire or Sarcasm (public experience). I suppose that Satire (e.g. stand-up comedy) could be considered an objective form of Irony, in that it depends on a common feeling among the audience. Those who don't share the feeling will not find it funny. Especially, if they are the butt of the joke. :joke:
Objective : 1 · being outside of the mind and independent of it.
Note -- Viral Memes (e.g. knock-knock jokes) begin as subjective ideas, but when they go public, the associated feeling is communicated to others. Many, if not most jokes, are funny because they point-out situations that are contrary to expectations, or to logic, or to social oughts.
Please ask Banno.
I'm asking you. You wrote it.
Apologies mi amigo, but Banno's the lead vocalist. I'm just a backup singer. Looks like I'm going to be unemployed very soon! :snicker:
Take a walk on the wild side.
What you say is true, which is yet another reason why my presence on this board is critical.
That is sarcasm, not irony by the way. That's something else my people excel at.
Should the fire station burn to the ground, that is ironic.
If one's iron wrinkles one's pants, that is irony about an iron, which is not only ironic, but a pun, and it's even a dad joke.
I'll be here all night. Please tip your waitresses.
So you are of the Alanis Morissette school on this topic.
I'd have to go back and study the litany of complaints itemized in her song, but I believe mine is different. She describes various things that suck, like winning the lottery and dying soon thereafter. It is not expected that one might live any more or less based upon a lottery win, but it is expected that the fire house is the least likely place to burn to the ground. It is the unexpected event that makes that ironic.
To the extent the concept of irony eludes you, that simply proves @Tom Storm's well researched theory that irony comprehension remains a mystery to the gentiles.
And that comment is sarcastic, and intended to be playful, not meant as an actual cut on Tom's theory, as that would be sardonic, a new concept now for consideration.
(The emoji is for our American friends).
Why do you want to know, Apophatboy?
Quoting T Clark
Quoting Banno
Or take a dork in the backside...
Quoting T Clark
In case it didn't sink in the term you asked about is 'apophatic'. Not to be confused with crakaphatic.
I'd categorize this as somewhere between playful and derisive, as you are aware of my lack of seriousness, but you probably do have some level of feeling actual Aussie superiority. Based upon that, I can't call it ironic. If it were ironic, that would indeed be ironic, as we'd have never expected a non-Jew to be ironic to a Jewish person.
Another word beyond irony, sarcastic, sardonic, and derisive we might all consider is "ornery." That's more a general description of the general disposition of old men that comes out in their humor, which often times isn't meant so much to be funny, but it is.
And to add to the never ending pile of terms here, that is what I call self-deprecation, with a misplaced sense of self-awareness, which makes it funny in a different kind of way, like "why would you be ornery if you know you're being ornery"? It's a good question, but it's a thing. I'd call that observational humor maybe, invoking Seinfeld. another member of the tribe.
Harry Houdini was Jewish. Does that help?
Apophasis (e.g. apophatic theology).
Thanks. I remember you talking about it before.
Quoting Janus
Yes, that went over my head till you clarified. Thanks.