Vera MontDecember 04, 2022 at 05:146225 views27 comments
You don't need to be a god. Suppose you're the leader of an interstellar voyage of discovery.
You find an Earth-like planet.
What do you do next?
Comments (27)
Agent SmithDecember 04, 2022 at 08:13#7607640 likes
The universe is 13.8 billion years old; galaxies, though younger, are also billions of years old; our earth is roughly 5 billion years old; life on the planet is around 4 billion years old; homo sapiens are about 2 million years old. Do the math.
unenlightenedDecember 04, 2022 at 10:57#7607770 likes
I would reflect firstly on why I needed to lead such a voyage in the first place?
Was it because humans had destroyed our own planet so beyond repair that we needed a new home? Or was it because our sun was ending its life and we needed to relocate to survive through no fault of our own, or was it because we require more resources to advance our own civilisation, or is it because we are so advanced and have established such great harmony with nature at home that we wish to share the technology and wisdom accrued with up and coming complex lifeforms so they may avoid the same mistakes we failed to?
I would also assess if this earth like planet is home to an advanced sentient being with culture and society or just a primordial soup of simple amoebas and bacteria.
Only when I know those things would I choose to ever set foot on this new planet. If the new planet harbours advanced life but we are only venturing for self serving motives I would likely move on and pretend it was dead and arid. So that we may find a planet hospital to life but not yet with civilisation, if we have the supplies on board to do so.
If we come in genuine peace, offering harmony, then I would set down and introduce myself to their peoples, offer gifts, gain trust and learn the lingo to exchange knowledge and ask if we may be honoured to cohabitate.
If my ship was failing, and the planets inhabitants were hostile, I would likely set down to save the crew, but enforce strict orders not to interact or aggress the natives. I would employ defensive walls, collect just enough resources to keep the ship sustainable and depart at the soonest possible time onwards to new frontiers and leave the peoples of the planet alone as they do not wish to be friends or practice diplomacy.
If the planet is not yet with life but has the conditions necessary, I and my team would set down, cast the materials in place and accelerate the fruition of the first lifeforms then leave it to grow, perhaps to return in the future to observe what has come of it.
I would reflect firstly on why I needed to lead such a voyage in the first place?
If you were in that position, you would already know the answer. A quick review won't hurt, but you'd have to use the information available to make decisions.
I would also assess if this earth like planet is home to an advanced sentient being with culture and society or just a primordial soup of simple amoebas and bacteria.
Smart procedure: find out what you're dealing with. Maybe check for bacteria or gases that are potentially harmful to your own party. You know how Star Trek away teams just beam down, willy-nilly, trusting that the environment is safe? Don't do that: you won't always land in California.
If the planet is not yet with life but has the conditions necessary, I and my team would set down, cast the materials in place and accelerate the fruition of the first lifeforms then leave it to grow, perhaps to return in the future to observe what has come of it.
As I understand it, the correct number is 200,000 years. Some pretty close relatives were there earlier. The last common ancestor between humans and chimpanzees is estimated to have lived between 4 and 13 million years ago, depending on how it is defined.
I'm more interested in the voyage itself. Suppose the planet is 100 light years away from Earth and the ship approaches 95% of light speed fairly quickly. Then time dilation will slow the passage of time aboard ship compared to that on Earth, but it was mentioned (speculated) in another thread that the distance the ship has to travel shrinks, so how long aboard ship would it take? How many years would have passed on Earth?
But this is a diversion from the OP. Ignore if you wish. :cool:
Suppose the planet is 100 light years away from Earth and the ship approaches 95% of light speed fairly quickly.
If we choose to deal with that in any serious scientific way, we don't get to travel in space. So, for purposes of fiction and thought-experiments, we usually let the question slide, or invent an imaginary warp drive of some variety.
Earth will probably be irrelevant to those on board. This is a one-way trip. There is an overwhelming chance they won't be able to go back whence they came. A message to earth will take 100 ears to arrive, and 100 years for a return message. They will be 'out of range' in a big way, (Some scoff writers propose leaving a string of transmitters along the way to stay in touch. Not sure how much that would help.
They probably won't travel at 95% of light's speed for long. It will probably take them quite a long time to reach maximum speed, and way before their arrival, they will have to start slowing down, else they will whiz past the destination.
Reply to Benj96 Caution is prudent, but IF the planet can support our form of life, there is probably similar (carbon based) life there. Whether the natives are amoebas, big stupid lizards, or refined intelligent beings, trouble WILL ensue. We, being what we are, will \ cause problems. Either our bodily flora and fauna will make them sick, or theirs will make us sick. They, beings of refined taste and intelligence, may decide we would be good to eat. Or, visa versa. Even if they are refined and intelligent, the opportunities for catastrophic misunderstanding is enormous,
Flip the situation: a space ship arrives on earth from a planet 100 light years away. Ultra big surprise! What is our likely response?
Reply to Vera Mont Their approach and our response is a fertile topic in science fiction. Were you beamed aboard the alien ship from earth by the aliens to provide guidance on how to approach us, what would you say?
Let's say the aliens can breathe our air. They are symmetrical beings with manipulative
"fingers" and 4 limbs, have several sensory capacities, but are overall somewhat repulsive in appearance (imagine as you will). Being sensible aliens, they have been surreptitiously studying us and can hear and understand your speech, but have some difficulty producing human speech sounds, so they communicate with you through a screen. They don't tell you and you don't know how much destructive power they are capable of projecting.
Gracias for correcting my error. The past is vital to our understanding of the present & the future. What happened to our Neanderthal cousins? Questions, questions, questions.
Agent SmithDecember 05, 2022 at 06:00#7610390 likes
I'm more interested in the voyage itself. Suppose the planet is 100 light years away from Earth and the ship approaches 95% of light speed fairly quickly. Then time dilation will slow the passage of time aboard ship compared to that on Earth, but it was mentioned (speculated) in another thread that the distance the ship has to travel shrinks, so how long aboard ship would it take?
It would take 105.2 years @95% speed of light with the planet being 100 light years away. That is the time that will be experienced on board. They woukd liley either have to have 2 generations of children (grandchildren would be the ones stepping foot on the planet) or they'd require some suspended animation sleep for 104 years.
How however planet earth and the planet they are travelling to would experience minimal passage of time between their departure and arrival. They may only experience a week or so, maybe less, maybe a little more I'm not sure on the exact math.
Just as interstellar, the crew landed on the planet with the massive tidal waves only 10 minutes after the first person drowned even though they left many decades before.
Time dilation is spooky like that. If earth were to send a message to the team a week after they left (which is when they actually arrived at the planet due to time dilation) and the message travelled at the speed of light, it woukd be there waiting for them already for roughly 5.2 years given or take a week (as it travelled for 100 years).
ChristofferDecember 05, 2022 at 10:44#7610940 likes
We initiate scientific protocols, study from space over the course of a few years, and then initiate a landing expedition. If the planet has life, but not intelligent life, priority science would be to study potential destructive impacts on our presence. If it is concluded that the impact would be minimal and that the planet has similar components of Earth in its atmosphere, which means we can breathe and exist there, establishing a colony would be the following step. If however there are intelligent beings there, establishing communication is a priority, meaning, the long-term work of overcoming the language barrier, which could take decades before being second nature. Communication and interaction with such a species would need to be on their terms since we are "guests". Depending on if they are technologically advanced or not, a transaction of technologies would be possible. They could be advanced, but not advanced in space flight, or they could be more advanced than us, but we offer a different perspective.
What I think would be a mistake is to not interact. The meeting between two species in the universe would be a monumental event for both civilizations, regardless of which is more advanced. And such an event would be a waste for the collective history of the universe if it was just ignored.
universenessDecember 05, 2022 at 12:40#7611150 likes
Reply to Benj96
The time dilation formula is:
t=to/?(1-(v^2- c^2 )
t would be the time passed on Earth.
to would be the time passed on the ship.
v^2 would be the square of the velocity of the ship, which you want to be 0.95% light speed, which is 285000000 meters per second. c being 300000000 meters per sec.
After substitution, that would give us:
t=to/?(1-(8.1225x10^16 / 9 x10^16)
t=to/?(1- 0.9025)
t=to/?0.0975
t=to/0.312249899
You suggest this planet is 100 light years away and the ship is travelling at 0.95% light speed. So, from the standpoint of those on Earth, 105 years would have passed before the ship reaches the planet.
So we have 105 years = time passed on ship / 0.312249899
So due to time dilation, the people on the ship would have aged 105 x 0.312249899
which is 32.78 years.
So, according to the time dilation formula, a newborn baby on Earth would be 105 years old when the ship reached the planet and a 20-year-old astronaut on the ship, would be 52 (almost 53) when the ship reached the planet.
A most responsible approach! You'd better have chosen your exploration team carefully - no impatient hotheads - but, of course, you would have.
I think that if a scientific and maybe also colonizing trip through the galaxy would be possible, then there would be a lot of protocols for how to interact with alien life, both non- and intelligent ones. At the moment there are already protocols in place for us to be careful not to contaminate other celestial bodies if there's a chance life exists there, so a huge exploration mission would have a thick book of laws and rules going into it.
Hot heads would be thrown out the airlock :grimace:
Agent SmithDecember 05, 2022 at 17:36#7611630 likes
The universe is 13.8 billion years old; galaxies, though younger, are also billions of years old; our earth is roughly 5 billion years old; life on the planet is around 4 billion years old; homo sapiens are about 2 million years old. Do the math.
Not very clear what equation is to be solved for what unknown.
Agent SmithDecember 06, 2022 at 03:36#7612640 likes
Comments (27)
I would reflect firstly on why I needed to lead such a voyage in the first place?
Was it because humans had destroyed our own planet so beyond repair that we needed a new home? Or was it because our sun was ending its life and we needed to relocate to survive through no fault of our own, or was it because we require more resources to advance our own civilisation, or is it because we are so advanced and have established such great harmony with nature at home that we wish to share the technology and wisdom accrued with up and coming complex lifeforms so they may avoid the same mistakes we failed to?
I would also assess if this earth like planet is home to an advanced sentient being with culture and society or just a primordial soup of simple amoebas and bacteria.
Only when I know those things would I choose to ever set foot on this new planet. If the new planet harbours advanced life but we are only venturing for self serving motives I would likely move on and pretend it was dead and arid. So that we may find a planet hospital to life but not yet with civilisation, if we have the supplies on board to do so.
If we come in genuine peace, offering harmony, then I would set down and introduce myself to their peoples, offer gifts, gain trust and learn the lingo to exchange knowledge and ask if we may be honoured to cohabitate.
If my ship was failing, and the planets inhabitants were hostile, I would likely set down to save the crew, but enforce strict orders not to interact or aggress the natives. I would employ defensive walls, collect just enough resources to keep the ship sustainable and depart at the soonest possible time onwards to new frontiers and leave the peoples of the planet alone as they do not wish to be friends or practice diplomacy.
If the planet is not yet with life but has the conditions necessary, I and my team would set down, cast the materials in place and accelerate the fruition of the first lifeforms then leave it to grow, perhaps to return in the future to observe what has come of it.
If you were in that position, you would already know the answer. A quick review won't hurt, but you'd have to use the information available to make decisions.
Quoting Benj96
Smart procedure: find out what you're dealing with. Maybe check for bacteria or gases that are potentially harmful to your own party. You know how Star Trek away teams just beam down, willy-nilly, trusting that the environment is safe? Don't do that: you won't always land in California.
Quoting Benj96
Now, that sounds divine!
Quoting Agent Smith
44
What's next?
As I understand it, the correct number is 200,000 years. Some pretty close relatives were there earlier. The last common ancestor between humans and chimpanzees is estimated to have lived between 4 and 13 million years ago, depending on how it is defined.
But this is a diversion from the OP. Ignore if you wish. :cool:
If we choose to deal with that in any serious scientific way, we don't get to travel in space. So, for purposes of fiction and thought-experiments, we usually let the question slide, or invent an imaginary warp drive of some variety.
Earth will probably be irrelevant to those on board. This is a one-way trip. There is an overwhelming chance they won't be able to go back whence they came. A message to earth will take 100 ears to arrive, and 100 years for a return message. They will be 'out of range' in a big way, (Some scoff writers propose leaving a string of transmitters along the way to stay in touch. Not sure how much that would help.
They probably won't travel at 95% of light's speed for long. It will probably take them quite a long time to reach maximum speed, and way before their arrival, they will have to start slowing down, else they will whiz past the destination.
Caution is prudent, but IF the planet can support our form of life, there is probably similar (carbon based) life there. Whether the natives are amoebas, big stupid lizards, or refined intelligent beings, trouble WILL ensue. We, being what we are, will \ cause problems. Either our bodily flora and fauna will make them sick, or theirs will make us sick. They, beings of refined taste and intelligence, may decide we would be good to eat. Or, visa versa. Even if they are refined and intelligent, the opportunities for catastrophic misunderstanding is enormous,
Flip the situation: a space ship arrives on earth from a planet 100 light years away. Ultra big surprise! What is our likely response?
nukes?
Maybe not. I guess it would depend partly on how they made the approach and partly on who did the first responding.
Let's say the aliens can breathe our air. They are symmetrical beings with manipulative
"fingers" and 4 limbs, have several sensory capacities, but are overall somewhat repulsive in appearance (imagine as you will). Being sensible aliens, they have been surreptitiously studying us and can hear and understand your speech, but have some difficulty producing human speech sounds, so they communicate with you through a screen. They don't tell you and you don't know how much destructive power they are capable of projecting.
Run!
(Sorry - been rewatching Doctor Who. But, yes, on the whole, that would be my advice.)
Gracias for correcting my error. The past is vital to our understanding of the present & the future. What happened to our Neanderthal cousins? Questions, questions, questions.
:rofl:
Read my reply to T Clark ... if you want to.
Bugger them, I'm more concerned about Australopithecus. :yikes:
Selection pressure got them! :grin:
It would take 105.2 years @95% speed of light with the planet being 100 light years away. That is the time that will be experienced on board. They woukd liley either have to have 2 generations of children (grandchildren would be the ones stepping foot on the planet) or they'd require some suspended animation sleep for 104 years.
How however planet earth and the planet they are travelling to would experience minimal passage of time between their departure and arrival. They may only experience a week or so, maybe less, maybe a little more I'm not sure on the exact math.
Just as interstellar, the crew landed on the planet with the massive tidal waves only 10 minutes after the first person drowned even though they left many decades before.
Time dilation is spooky like that. If earth were to send a message to the team a week after they left (which is when they actually arrived at the planet due to time dilation) and the message travelled at the speed of light, it woukd be there waiting for them already for roughly 5.2 years given or take a week (as it travelled for 100 years).
What I think would be a mistake is to not interact. The meeting between two species in the universe would be a monumental event for both civilizations, regardless of which is more advanced. And such an event would be a waste for the collective history of the universe if it was just ignored.
The time dilation formula is:
t=to/?(1-(v^2- c^2 )
t would be the time passed on Earth.
to would be the time passed on the ship.
v^2 would be the square of the velocity of the ship, which you want to be 0.95% light speed, which is 285000000 meters per second. c being 300000000 meters per sec.
After substitution, that would give us:
t=to/?(1-(8.1225x10^16 / 9 x10^16)
t=to/?(1- 0.9025)
t=to/?0.0975
t=to/0.312249899
You suggest this planet is 100 light years away and the ship is travelling at 0.95% light speed. So, from the standpoint of those on Earth, 105 years would have passed before the ship reaches the planet.
So we have 105 years = time passed on ship / 0.312249899
So due to time dilation, the people on the ship would have aged 105 x 0.312249899
which is 32.78 years.
So, according to the time dilation formula, a newborn baby on Earth would be 105 years old when the ship reached the planet and a 20-year-old astronaut on the ship, would be 52 (almost 53) when the ship reached the planet.
I took the question to mean: What would I say to the aliens? Quoting Agent Smith
That doesn't sound like math. Anyway, I'm not that good at stringing 0's.
Quoting Christoffer
A most responsible approach! You'd better have chosen your exploration team carefully - no impatient hotheads - but, of course, you would have.
I think that if a scientific and maybe also colonizing trip through the galaxy would be possible, then there would be a lot of protocols for how to interact with alien life, both non- and intelligent ones. At the moment there are already protocols in place for us to be careful not to contaminate other celestial bodies if there's a chance life exists there, so a huge exploration mission would have a thick book of laws and rules going into it.
Hot heads would be thrown out the airlock :grimace:
Well, that's because some things can't be mathematized ... or can they?
An open question, especially with regard to human behavior.
Quoting Agent Smith
How should I know? You said it!
Quoting Agent Smith
Not very clear what equation is to be solved for what unknown.
Oh, now I see what happened there! A crossing of wires, a confusion minds. A regular day for a philosopher.
Yep! We're in back in the neolithic age, in some respects.