Do you feel like you're wasting your time being here?

Shawn December 19, 2022 at 04:29 6875 views 39 comments
Don't get me wrong with the title of this thread. I mean, with recent threads like, 'are you happy' or 'the wrong question', I feel as though some people might be looking for more high quality philosophy or are simply enjoying their time, be it wasted or not, whilst being here.

Regardless, I'd like to ask the general question of the title of this thread in terms;
A) If true, are you looking for higher quality content?
B) If false, disregard.

Comments (39)

Pantagruel December 19, 2022 at 11:36 #764968
Do you think that the pursuit of understanding should be enjoyable or challenging?
Down The Rabbit Hole December 19, 2022 at 13:16 #764995
Reply to Shawn

No, I think it's great for testing my beliefs and learning from others. And seeing pig pics.
Sapien1 December 19, 2022 at 13:36 #764999
Not to forget the silent determination of the masses and the affirmation of alien life by those who know better than me.
180 Proof December 19, 2022 at 13:55 #765004
Reply to Shawn How could I be "wasting my time here" (or anywhere else) when wherever I am time is already wasting me?
Jack Cummins December 19, 2022 at 14:06 #765011
Reply to Shawn
Generally, I think that this forum is a great interactive way of learning. Of course, there are times when the threads going are of lesser personal interest than others and there is so much scope for creating threads. I discovered this forum over 2 years ago, and when I look back on it I think that I have done as much reading, writing and thinking as I did on my undergraduate course.

And, there is some fun as well. When the Shoutbox moved onto the front page I wondered what it was. But, now, I see it as a lighter side and more informal, and with the story threads as being complementary. There are also so many different voices from people of all kinds of backgrounds, so I find it to be such a useful learning resource and enjoyable too.
Manuel December 19, 2022 at 15:13 #765023
There aren't good alternatives where I live, and I very much enjoy what I do. But it's also hard to enjoy these things without discussing them. Waste of time can be very nebulous: you could be visiting a country or meeting a "distinguished" member of society, but if you are bored and/or not stimulated then you are wasting your time with these "useful" activities.
Shawn December 19, 2022 at 18:07 #765053
Reply to Pantagruel

What is the pursuit of understanding in your opinion? To me it sounds very vague.

Shawn December 19, 2022 at 18:09 #765054
Reply to Pantagruel Reply to Down The Rabbit Hole Reply to Sapien1 Reply to 180 Proof Reply to Manuel

So, are you looking for higher quality content as per the OP?
Pantagruel December 19, 2022 at 18:18 #765055
Quoting Shawn
What is the pursuit of understanding in your opinion? To me it sounds very vague.


Broad, but not vague. For me, everyone on here shares a common love of thinking and expressing thought, albeit across a very broad spectrum of subjects. Hopefully there is enough diversity that everyone can find something to his taste. I'm leery to some extent of standards of quality, as Schopenhauer was, as they can easily lead to stultification. The mods seem to manage all that handily.
Manuel December 19, 2022 at 18:48 #765061
Reply to Shawn

Not higher quality per se, but content that expands on my own interests.

There is also very high-quality content here and some which are not very good. But my options are rather limited and I find that many posters here are very good and interesting.
180 Proof December 19, 2022 at 19:13 #765063
god must be atheist December 19, 2022 at 20:18 #765071
Higher quality content. Such a thing doesn't exist for me. I don't rank contents as "high" or "low" quality.

Their presentation and treatment I can dislike, like, or be amazed at. It is the newness of insight that impresses me, but interestingly only the first time I encounter it. After the first encounter with it and digesting it and making it my own, I am not impressed if someone serves it up again.

Talk about the quickness of declining value of marginal utility. That's my middle name.

There are pet theories, however, that I cherish always.

Outlander December 19, 2022 at 20:44 #765076
I like every character here, so to speak. This is a good "mix". I would be entertained if you all were simply sitting around discussing how terrible I am as a person. Perhaps it's like my old English teacher would say "Kid's easily impressed". Perhaps he was right.

As stated, the content is also high quality and thought-provoking so that's great as well.
Down The Rabbit Hole December 19, 2022 at 20:50 #765079
Reply to Shawn

No, I think the quality of content on here is more than reasonable. There are interesting discussions and plenty of knowledgeable members.
Sapien1 December 20, 2022 at 13:45 #765209
[copy paste down the rabbit hole's comment]
Jamal December 20, 2022 at 14:08 #765213
Quoting Shawn
So, are you looking for higher quality content as per the OP?


I would like to see more high quality stuff, such as more essay or book reading groups, like we did in the beginning. But I realize I’m not leading by example, as I hardly contribute to the philosophy discussions these days. Seems I could only keep that up for a few years.
Manuel December 20, 2022 at 17:30 #765247
Reply to Jamal

I have pending a Locke's Essay reading group, probably will cover 3-4 different chapter, but I've still to finish it again. but am not too far from it.
Jamal December 20, 2022 at 17:35 #765249
Reply to Manuel Excellent, gold star to you!
Shawn December 20, 2022 at 23:44 #765383
Quoting Jamal
I would like to see more high quality stuff, such as more essay or book reading groups, like we did in the beginning.


I was going to ask the same thing; but, the current festive atmosphere ought not be disturbed so I digress.

I'm looking forward to inviting a philosopher if possible or starting up a reading group.

Anyone else want to have a reading group also?
Janus December 21, 2022 at 00:46 #765407
Reply to Shawn When I want "higher quality content" I read the greats. But sometimes it's interesting to wallow in one's own lower quality content, put it out there and see how it relates to the lower level contents of others.

If you got nothing out of it, it would be a waste of time, for sure, but then how long would anyone participate in anything they got nothing at all out of?

Quoting Jamal
But I realize I’m not leading by example, as I hardly contribute to the philosophy discussions these days. Seems I could only keep that up for a few years.


If only all of us were as wise as you; but then that would mean the death of PF.

To be serious, the wish for higher quality content is the wish that this site should approximate to academia; and I see academia as being, in general, rather narrow and normatively constricted. I like to encounter as diverse a range of views as possible, no matter how whacky or "folksy' they might seem, because thereby I can understand humanity better.
Shawn December 21, 2022 at 01:24 #765416
Quoting Janus
When I want "higher quality content" I read the greats.


I'm not concerned with the greats. All that characterizes them is their originality, and genius. I do enjoy as of recent more of the analytic and academic philosophers. They seem to be on well grounding that is fun to entertain and provides a nice relief from all the hogwash and wallowing.
I like sushi December 21, 2022 at 15:09 #765543
Reply to Shawn I would prefer higher quality content. Who wouldn’t? It is what is … a ‘stepping stone’, at best, onto other things, a pool of boredom and squalor at worst.

I learnt before joining this forum that it would serve mainly as a place to hone my writing and reading in a more critical way. That is all.
Merkwurdichliebe December 21, 2022 at 23:38 #765676
Quoting I like sushi
I would prefer higher quality content. Who wouldn’t? It is what is … a ‘stepping stone’, at best, onto other things, a pool of boredom and squalor at worst.

I learnt before joining this forum that it would serve mainly as a place to hone my writing and reading in a more critical way. That is all.


I resemble this. I will admit, with all it's flaws, tpf is the best site that a thinker can test his ideas on others who are, more or less, philosophically minded. But if a person really wants to improve his philosophical acumen, he would undoubtedly resort to the source material of the greats, hence a "stepping stone".
bert1 December 22, 2022 at 07:32 #765768
I'd like to see more high quality content, but like Jamal I don't manage to offer it much myself at the moment. I have fairly narrow interests, mainly the philosophy of consciousness. I miss really good posters like pfhorrest and The Great Whatever. Both of those had really thought about a lot of stuff and came on the forum to test it all out. If I had the spoons I'd like to do a reading group taking a paper on consciousness once a month or something. Some of the ones about basing consciousness in semiotics might be a good start as I don't understand that very well. Pattee on cell phenomenology and the first experience is interesting.
BC December 22, 2022 at 08:02 #765769
Quoting Jamal
I would like to see more high quality stuff


"Do you feel like you're wasting your time being here?"

What is "wasted time"?

No, we don't want to see more high quality stuff. Quality is too demanding, too burdensome, hard to produce, often tedious to read. We don't have to go for absolute slop, but let's be sensible: sitting down at the mighty Mac and turning out refined, insightful, elegant, and witty text is a major drain on one's ever-diminishing intellectual resources. I could be brilliant, but then I would be too exhausted to appreciate the adulation which fallow philosophers would shower on me.

Enough about the flight to quality!
Agent Smith December 22, 2022 at 08:18 #765771
Quoting Bitter Crank
would like to see more high quality stuff
— Jamal

"Do you feel like you're wasting your time being here?"

What is "wasted time"?

No, we don't want to see more high quality stuff. Quality is too demanding, too burdensome, hard to produce, often tedious to read. We don't have to go for absolute slop, but let's be sensible: sitting down at the mighty Mac and turning out refined, insightful, elegant, and witty text is a major drain on one's ever-diminishing intellectual resources. I could be brilliant, but then I would be too exhausted to appreciate the adulation which fallow philosophers would shower on me.

Enough about the flight to quality!


You got what you were craving for @Jamal! :grin:

Ludwig V December 22, 2022 at 11:09 #765781
Reply to Agent Smith I'm not sure that it is quality that matters most to me. There's a lot of very different kinds of stuff going on, but that allows me to be selective. What I'm looking for is what interests and stimulates me. Quality is a secondary consideration.

I don't live in a philosophical community, as the academics do, (though an academic department can be very limited) and there are few people locally who have the faintest interest in philosophy. Reading and thinking about stuff on my own is a bit stultifying after quite a short while. So engagement with other people is crucial.

I think that the screen medium and the endless material tends to lead to me scrolling through stuff without really taking any of it in, and I find myself doing that here, too. But scrolling through stuff here is better than doing the same thing on the more popular sites. That is guaranteed to be a waste of time.

I imagine that when I have been a member for years, I will have experienced times when it gets boring and times when it isn't. Nothing is forever - except death and taxes, I suppose.
unenlightened December 22, 2022 at 11:29 #765783
It's a community. It doesn't matter too much if I am wasting my time; it is multiply more serious If I am wasting everyone's time. The community knows and understands more than any individual member, and a good part of the enjoyment is finding bits and pieces of wisdom from disparate fields brought into relationship in the discussions of others. The best threads for me are always the ones I am not competent to participate in.
Janus December 24, 2022 at 05:48 #766243
Quoting Bitter Crank
I could be brilliant, but then I would be too exhausted to appreciate the adulation which fallow philosophers would shower on me.


:up: (Was the "fallow" intentional or a typo?)

Quoting unenlightened
The best threads for me are always the ones I am not competent to participate in.


I agree, but one must be at least competent enough to comprehend what is being presented.

fdrake December 24, 2022 at 12:05 #766265
Yes, looking at the present. At any given point in time, discussions can feel simultaneously too in depth and too superficial all at once. Though I've felt the same thing in more academic contexts too. That coincidence is a good sign.

But an emphatic no to the time wasting based on the number of times chatting with people here has changed how I act IRL for the better.

Examples:
( 1 ) Learning about emotivism here years ago has helped out talking with some very angry people ranting about injustices in their lives.
( 2 ) I've gotten a lot better at taking on much different points of view from my own engaging here over the years. A steelman Devil's Advocate is good practice for empathy. This has helped me process strong disagreements with others.
( 3 ) In line with processing strong disagreements, a distinction I've practiced thinking in terms of here is one between opinions expressed with words and those expressed in actions. People can believe diametrically opposed things and act in the same way; makes the words matter less.
( 4 ) In line with making the words matter less, playing about with arguments for years has helped me both notice and construct my own rhetorical dark arts. Noticing and making emotional appeals, knowing when to smooth concepts over to make a point despite not fully committing to them. Lying and noticing lying with skill, to put a fine point on it.

I guess it's what is to be expected from learning though. Most events along the path are run of the mill, you do not notice their incremental effects.
Metaphysician Undercover December 24, 2022 at 12:56 #766269
Quoting Shawn
Regardless, I'd like to ask the general question of the title of this thread in terms;
A) If true, are you looking for higher quality content?
B) If false, disregard.


As is the case in the world in general, in regards to most everything, we're always hoping for high quality, but never expecting to find it, because it is rare. How we respond to the rare occurrence of higher quality is what is pivotal, because not expecting to find it leaves us vulnerable to shock and a wide variety of other emotional responses which may happen.

So you might ask questions like the following. Do you recognize quality as such? Do you recoil in shock at its occurrence? Do you attack it aggressively in fear of the power that superlativeness has over you? Are you humbled by quality?

All these are considerable issues for anyone seeking higher quality, and the key is a person's ability to recognize the occurrence of higher quality. Anyone who actually believes that higher quality is possible ought to have clear criteria as to how to recognize its occurrence. Otherwise its all subjective and simply emotional responses to differences, producing the condition of 'my content is always the higher quality content'.

The alternative, is to start from a fair and unbiased position of 'all content is fundamentally equal in quality'. This makes quality attributable to something other than content. Then we can look at the numerous different features of writing, allowing for the reality that each person has one's own preferences as to which of the different features higher quality is being looked for. Consequently, the meaning of 'higher quality' would differ according to one's preferences.
Tom Storm December 25, 2022 at 01:15 #766381
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
So you might ask questions like the following. Do you recognize quality as such? Do you recoil in shock at its occurrence? Do you attack it aggressively in fear of the power that superlativeness has over you? Are you humbled by quality?


Interesting. I find myself asking how do we even recognise high quality given the divergent levels of understanding and education between members? Not to mention some people's dogged prosecution of certain beliefs. I generally associate high quality with pellucid English sentences that state things elegantly and simply. But that's my bias. This could also indicate my unwillingness or inability to engage with more complex ideas. :wink:
Metaphysician Undercover December 25, 2022 at 01:41 #766386
Quoting Tom Storm
I generally associate high quality with pellucid English sentences that state things elegantly and simply.


So this is a specific type of form which you believe to be of a higher quality than others. Can I ask why you believe that this type of writing, rather than some other type like Platonic dialectics for example, or other types of less pellucid language used by modern philosophers, would constitute higher quality philosophy?
Tom Storm December 25, 2022 at 02:52 #766397
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover I answered that already in the next part. For heaven’s sake man , read carefully- how are you going to break open Heidegger with such scant regard for meaning? :razz:
Metaphysician Undercover December 25, 2022 at 03:17 #766400
Reply to Tom Storm
I think it's you who needs to read more carefully, I asked "why" do you feel that this personal preference of yours constitutes a higher quality? I didn't ask why it is your personal preference. Generally we distinguish between things which we like due to personal preference, and things which we like due to higher quality. Personal preference does not equate with higher quality for most of us.
Shawn December 25, 2022 at 03:41 #766405
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Generally we distinguish between things which we like due to personal preference, and things which we like due to higher quality. Personal preference does not equate with higher quality for most of us.


That's a humdrum!
Tom Storm December 25, 2022 at 04:23 #766409
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
I asked "why" do you feel that this personal preference of yours constitutes a higher quality?


I was being sarcastic in an unhelpful way. Sorry.

When I enjoy content I tend to value it more, regardless of its actual merit. I am not a philosopher, so I'm not sure how I would ascertain 'higher quality' in a substantive way. Best I can do is tell if something is riffing off fallacies and banalities. And I am more likely to value a contribution if I can understand the position being articulated on account of clear English and coherent conceptual framing.

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Anyone who actually believes that higher quality is possible ought to have clear criteria as to how to recognise its occurrence.


Fair. Do you have such a criteria or can you imagine one?

Having a robust familiarity with the philosophical literature being referred to and using citations and quotations appropriately strikes me as an obvious but banal example.
ssu December 26, 2022 at 12:20 #766563
Quoting Bitter Crank
No, we don't want to see more high quality stuff. Quality is too demanding, too burdensome, hard to produce, often tedious to read. We don't have to go for absolute slop, but let's be sensible: sitting down at the mighty Mac and turning out refined, insightful, elegant, and witty text is a major drain on one's ever-diminishing intellectual resources. I could be brilliant, but then I would be too exhausted to appreciate the adulation which fallow philosophers would shower on me.

Enough about the flight to quality!


:up:

Besides, I always like when some new member starts something like "I was introduced to Ayn Rand and liked it. It's so true. What do you guys think of her?".

And then just enjoy the replies with popcorn.
Metaphysician Undercover December 26, 2022 at 12:49 #766565
Quoting Tom Storm
When I enjoy content I tend to value it more, regardless of its actual merit.


That, I would say, is the subjective nature of "value". It appears tp me like we are always seeking to objectify our systems for evaluation, but we can never completely rid ourselves of that subjective aspect.

Quoting Tom Storm
Best I can do is tell if something is riffing off fallacies and banalities. And I am more likely to value a contribution if I can understand the position being articulated on account of clear English and coherent conceptual framing.


I can see why being able to understand what is written would be a primary concern when judging for quality, but wouldn't this be more like a prerequisite thing? Not being able to understand the material would exclude it from the category of being judgeable (as to quality), and clear understanding would mean it's easily judgeable. So this would be a type of preliminary judgement, judging the judgeability.

Quoting Tom Storm
Fair. Do you have such a criteria or can you imagine one?


I'm considering this question right now. I never really thought about judging the content on TPF before, maybe this is a subject which has come up because of the short story competitions where members are asked to judge pieces of work. I am not naturally inclined toward making such judgements. To me, this is like judging the quality of individual people. Who is a higher quality person than another? We are all different in unique ways, having a mix of good characteristics and bad. Judgement of the overall quality of the person would require a formula for summing up the good and bad. And some characteristics would have to be weighted as more important than others. That's a very difficult subject.