Schopenhauer's Criticism of Kant's use of 'Noumena'

Wayfarer January 09, 2023 at 08:54 9350 views 49 comments
This developed from a diversion in another thread and my exploration of the distinction between phenomenal and noumenal in philosophy. I noted that the term 'noumenal' is mainly understood in terms of Kant's use of the word in his philosophy, but that Schopenhauer had criticized this, saying that:

The difference between abstract and intuitive cognition, which Kant entirely overlooks, was the very one that ancient philosophers indicated as ????????? [phainomena] and ???????? [nooumena]; the opposition and incommensurability between these terms proved very productive in the philosophemes of the Eleatics, in Plato's doctrine of Ideas, in the dialectic of the Megarics, and later in the scholastics, in the conflict between nominalism and realism. This latter conflict was the late development of a seed already present in the opposed tendencies of Plato and Aristotle. But Kant, who completely and irresponsibly neglected the issue for which the terms ????????? and ???????? were already in use, then took possession of the terms as if they were stray and ownerless, and used them as designations of things in themselves and their appearances.


My notes on this: 'abstract' and 'intuitive' seems a very odd translation. I would have thought the distinction was between 'sensible' and 'rational' cognition, but I can't find the passage in Schopenhauer (if anyone has a precise reference I'd appreciate it.)

My interpretation is that the 'noumenal' refers to 'objects of intellect', i.e., facts that can be known directly by reason without appeal to the evidence of the senses. These were traditionally understood as a priori truths, arithmetical proofs, and the like - truths of reason, which could be known without recourse to empirical evidence, while 'phenomenal' refers to the domain of appearance. Hence the traditional philosophical distinction between reality and appearance which to all intents was declared obsolete by Russell and Moore's rejection of philosophical idealism.

It's also worth noting the original distinction between phenomenal and noumenal which according to the Oxford Companion to Philosophy was:

Platonic Ideas and Forms are noumenal, and phenomena are things displaying themselves to the senses... This dichotomy is the most characteristic feature of Plato's dualism; that noumena and the noumenal world are objects of the highest knowledge, truths, and values is Plato's principal legacy to philosophy.


This was, of course, then transformed by Aristotle, who 'immanentized the forms' by denying them reality in a purported realm of pure form, however preserved the basic principle of form and matter which became the immensely influential philosophy of hylomorphism that is still part of A-T (Aristotelian Thomist) philosophy to this day.

But that Kant uses the term 'noumenal; with reference to things 'in themselves' (ding an sich) which are by definition unknowable, and in so doing, considerably changes the meaning of the word - just as Schopenhauer says.



Comments (49)

Jamal January 09, 2023 at 09:08 #770726
As I explained in the other discussion, I think Schopenhauer is wrong about this, for the simple reason that Kant explicitly contradicts him on more than one occasion. He takes noumena to be the purported objects of intellectual intuition, as opposed to the phenomenal objects of sensible intuition. The notion of things as they are in themselves is the unavoidable result of taking this noumenal access to reality seriously as a legitimate human faculty.

Having said that, as always with Kant, it's complicated. He varies his emphasis and sometimes seems to come close to contradicting himself, so there is some support in the Critique for taking noumena and things-in-themselves as simple synonyms. But this is by no means the dominant thrust of the concept.
Jamal January 09, 2023 at 09:15 #770727
But if you want to include a priori mathematical concepts and categories of the understanding under the term noumena, appealing to the ancient use of the term, then I'm not against that in principle, and I don't know enough about its use in Greek philosophy to argue about it.

Kant wouldn't go along with this. He would use noumena to describe, say, Plato's forms or Leibniz's monads (as well as suggestive of "things as they are in themselves"), which are purported objects in the world that are nevertheless apprehended intellectually. The a priori concepts and structures of the understanding wouldn't be lumped in with these.

So if you're right, then there is indeed a difference between the ancient and the Kantian notions of noumena, but Schopenhauer's accusation remains mistaken.
Wayfarer January 09, 2023 at 09:21 #770728
What about the idea of the 'form of the triangle'?

Quoting Edward Feser
Consider that when you think about triangularity, as you might when proving a geometrical theorem, it is necessarily perfect triangularity that you are contemplating, not some mere approximation of it. Triangularity as your intellect grasps it is entirely determinate or exact; for example, what you grasp is the notion of a closed plane figure with three perfectly straight sides, rather than that of something which may or may not have straight sides or which may or may not be closed. Of course, your mental image of a triangle might not be exact, but rather indeterminate and fuzzy. But to grasp something with the intellect is not the same as to form a mental image of it. For any mental image of a triangle is necessarily going to be of an isosceles triangle specifically, or of a scalene one, or an equilateral one; but the concept of triangularity that your intellect grasps applies to all triangles alike. Any mental image of a triangle is going to have certain features, such as a particular color, that are no part of the concept of triangularity in general. A mental image is something private and subjective, while the concept of triangularity is objective and grasped by many minds at once.


Similarly, Russell's discussion of Universals:

[quote=The World of Universals; https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5827/5827-h/5827-h.htm#link2HCH0009:~:text=it%20is%20something.-,It%20is%20largely%20the,-very%20peculiar%20kind]It is largely the very peculiar kind of being that belongs to universals which has led many people to suppose that they are really mental. We can think of a universal, and our thinking then exists in a perfectly ordinary sense, like any other mental act. Suppose, for example, that we are thinking of whiteness. Then in one sense it may be said that whiteness is 'in our mind'. ...In the strict sense, it is not whiteness that is in our mind, but the act of thinking of whiteness. The connected ambiguity in the word 'idea', which we noted at the same time, also causes confusion here. In one sense of this word, namely the sense in which it denotes the object of an act of thought, whiteness is an 'idea'. Hence, if the ambiguity is not guarded against, we may come to think that whiteness is an 'idea' in the other sense, i.e. an act of thought; and thus we come to think that whiteness is mental. But in so thinking, we rob it of its essential quality of universality. One man's act of thought is necessarily a different thing from another man's; one man's act of thought at one time is necessarily a different thing from the same man's act of thought at another time. Hence, if whiteness were the thought as opposed to its object, no two different men could think of it, and no one man could think of it twice. That which many different thoughts of whiteness have in common is their object, and this object is different from all of them. Thus universals are not thoughts, though when known they are the objects of thoughts.[/quote]

(I've bolded the two congruent statements.)

These examples illustrate what I think the traditional meaning of 'noumenal' refers to - just as Schopenhauer says. (I'm still investigating what becomes of 'form and substance' in Kant.)
Jamal January 09, 2023 at 09:22 #770729
By the way, I can't remember the last time there was a Kant exegesis thread, so thanks! :up:

I can't promise I'll contribute much more though, as I don't have my copy of the Critique any more, and it's quite a commitment. I hope @Mww joins in.
Wayfarer January 09, 2023 at 09:23 #770730
Reply to Jamal No probs, I've been wanting to discuss this topic, more in respect of Universals than Kant specifically, but still...

Oh, and also one of my favourite references, Augustine on Intelligible Objects - further grist to the mill....
Jamal January 09, 2023 at 09:41 #770731
Quoting Wayfarer
I'm still investigating what becomes of 'form and substance' in Kant


As I recall, these would either both be elements of the understanding (judgements or categories) or else, in the case of form, either an imposition of the innate structure of the mind's faculty of intuition (space and time), or this as it is applied to the phenomenal and particular (according to the schemata?).

Quoting Wayfarer
That which many different thoughts of whiteness have in common is their object, and this object is different from all of them


The universal is listed in his table of judgements, so it's a pure concept of the understanding, seen as independent of the objects of experience and thus a priori. I'm not sure that addresses your questions about the problem of universals, and I'm not sure Kant comes down fully in either of the nominalist or realist camps.
Tom Storm January 09, 2023 at 10:03 #770734
Reply to Wayfarer What exactly does intellectual intuition consist of? Is this how universals or archetypes are thought to be apprehended? Sorry if the following seems dim or off topic.

Are there not more recent schools of thought (especially in postmodernism) that take apart reason and apriori logic and maths and ultimately argue these are just human frameworks that don't really operate as advertised as universal or absolutist truths (Imre Lakatos)? I think @Joshs has written of this.

I'm not educated in these matters, but the ontological status of maths and reason do interest me. It's your view that they transcend human experience and are not somehow formed as a product of human experience, right? How could we know the answer to this, given all we apprehend, all knowledge is from a human standpoint - 'the view from human' - either deliberately created, or implicitly manufactured as part of our perceptual apparatus?

Doesn't Kant argue in COPR that space is a preconscious organising feature of the human mind, a scaffold upon which we’re able to understand the physical world of objects, extension and motion? I'm assuming there is a view that maths and geometry have a similar status? How could we determine if this is a preconscious organising feature and has origins outside of human consciousness?

Wayfarer January 09, 2023 at 11:07 #770746
Quoting Jamal
I'm not sure that addresses your questions about the problem of universals, and I'm not sure Kant comes down fully in either of the nominalist or realist camps.


SLX recommended a book to me a long time back, Kant's Theory of Normativity, Konstantin Pollok, which I think addresses this subject - how Kant 'sublated' Aristotle's theory into 'transcendental hylomorphism'. It's a heavyweight book, I have started it several times but bogged down - really must persist.

Quoting Tom Storm
It's your view that they transcend human experience and are not somehow formed as a product of human experience, right?


Not only my view:

[quote=The Powers of Pure Reason: Kant and the Idea of Cosmic Philosophy, Alfredo Ferrarin]...we may be sorrrounded by objects, but even while cognizing them, reason is the origin of something that is neither reducible to, nor derives from them, in any sense. In other words, reason generates a cognition, and a cognition regarding nature is above nature. In a cognition, reason transcends nature in one of two ways: by rising above our natural cognition and making, for example, universal and necessarily claims in theoretical and practical matters not determined by nature, or by assuming an impersonal objective perspective that remains irreducible to the individual "I".'[/quote]

I see that as being quite in keeping with the mainstream of philosophy, but generally out of keeping with naturalism.

Quoting Tom Storm
Are there not more recent schools of thought (especially in postmodernism) that take apart reason and apriori logic and maths and ultimately argue these are just human frameworks that don't really operate as advertised as universal or absolutist truths (Imre Lakatos)?


Sure. The idea of universals is highly unpopular in the academy, about the only people who still defend it are Thomists (mainly Catholic, I presume), but I find the logic compelling regardless. I'm interested by the idea in ancient and medieval philosophy that reason is the connection between the cosmic order, logos, and the individual intellect, even if it's unfashionable (see this paragraph).

Regarding Kant on space and time, that is in the first section of the Critique of Pure Reason. It's very hard to grasp the detail, but my gloss on it is that space and time have an irreducibly subjective component, in that they must require a perspective. Without perspective, how can anything be nearer or further, larger or smaller, or more or less recent in time? Kant believed that time is a pure intuition that is a necessary condition of our experience - not something that we perceive through our senses, but rather it is a fundamental aspect of the possibility of experience. But it's a notoriously difficult subject.
Metaphysician Undercover January 09, 2023 at 14:02 #770786
Quoting Wayfarer
My interpretation is that the 'noumenal' refers to 'objects of intellect', i.e., facts that can be known directly by reason without appeal to the evidence of the senses. These were traditionally understood as a priori truths, arithmetical proofs, and the like - truths of reason, which could be known without recourse to empirical evidence, while 'phenomenal' refers to the domain of appearance. Hence the traditional philosophical distinction between reality and appearance which to all intents was declared obsolete by Russell and Moore's rejection of philosophical idealism.


I think you and I have approached this issue before, but we were incapable of progressing very far. So I'm going to state some principles here in very simple terms (oversimplified perhaps). But if you understand and accept them, that will lay some groundwork toward understanding this difference between Plato and Kant.

What came out of Aristotle's critique of Plato, and Pythagorean idealism in general, was a separation, a division, between the forms of human intelligence (universals, mathematical formulae, etc.), and the independent Forms of the divine realm (God, and the angels).

Aristotle showed that human ideas exist only as potential prior to being actualized by the human mind. Then with his so-called "cosmological argument" he showed that anything eternal must be actual. Simply put, eternal potential could not actualize itself. This excluded human ideas (as based in potential) from the realm of the eternal. But at the same time, the cosmological argument necessitates an actuality (Form) which is prior in time to all material existence, matter being potential.

A thorough reading of Thomas Aquinas will show that he goes through great lengths to explain and expound on this separation. The separation between the forms which are understood by the human mind, and the separate independent Forms, is a consequence of the human intellectual objects (forms) being dependent on the material body, and the senses which are a part of the body. That's why he says that man cannot adequately know God (as a separate independent Form) until his soul is separated from the body, after death. The prior condition, why the soul has been punished by being united to a body in the first place points back to mysticism and the original sin.

So you can see that while Plato allowed that the human intellect can apprehend the separate independent Forms directly, Kant imposes the medium of the human body and its sense apparatus as a divisor between the human intellect and the noumena. However, Kant leaves a large unexplained area, as a priori intuitions, and the pure intuitions of space and time which are deemed necessary for the human mind to receive sense impressions..
Mww January 09, 2023 at 15:47 #770811
Quoting Jamal
I hope Mww joins in.


Yikes!!!

Understanding. Faculty of. Faculty of thought; faculty of judgement; faculty of synthesis of conceptions; faculty of pure a priori cognitions. All listed, as such, verbatim.

One division containing two books containing five chapters containing eight sections containing 179 pages. Oh….and an appendix. Depending on translation.

No wonder there’s mass confusion over just how this thing goes about its business. After 20 years of working on it, two somewhat differing renditions, copious margin jottings, a plethora of peer correspondence….hell, by the time he got done, he might have confused himself.
————

Kant does overlook the difference between S’s abstract and intuitive cognitions, but S overlooks Kant’s difference between discursive and intuitive cognitions. If it is discoverable that Kant’s discursive is not that different than S’s abstract…..S’s criticism is pretty weak.
————

There is a distinction between Kantian and ancient notions of noumena, following from a distinction between Kantian and ancient philosophy. Whether subversion or progress, it is the way of human intelligence generally: build on or tear down whatever some predecessor said.

Reply to Wayfarer …..didn’t S do the same thing with respect to Buddhist notions, as S accused Kant of doing with respect to the Greeks? You know….change meanings, relations and whatnot? I dunno myself, although I am aware he associated himself with Buddhist thought in some ways. Just asking.
————-

Kant defines noumena. He stipulates exactly how he intends the conception to be understood in relation to transcendental philosophy in general and the faculty of understanding in particular. Nowhere in the definition is there a clue, an implication, or even a vague hint, of a relation to the ding an sich. It’s in the text, black and white, done deal. Take it to the bank.

The misuse of the conception, in opposition to its definition…..that’s not on him.

That he elaborates on his intended use of the conception in such a way as to confuse the use with the definition….(sigh)…..that is on him, but only because he’s writing for academics, who are supposed to grasp the subtleties on their own, unlike me and those like me, who wouldn’t normally even know there is such a thing to begin with, much less a proper/improper use for it.
(Hume and S call us “vulgar”. At least Kant wasn’t so mean, only referring to us as “common”. Actually, they mean the vulgar or common capacity of our understanding, not us personally.)
————

Universal is listed in the table of judgements, it is an a priori conception, but it is not a pure conception of the understanding, so named in the text, which are the categories, in which universal is not listed. The conceptions in the table of judgements are thought, are put there….arrived at…..as a part of the process of reason; the conceptions in the table of categories are contained in understanding without being thought, insofar as they are “true pure, primitive”, “original”, they’re just there naturally, as integral to our kind of intelligence. Although, there is a bit about the introduction of “transcendental content”…..whatever that entails isn’t given much explanation.

Metaphysical reductionism covering ubiquitous Kantian dualism writ large, for better or worse.

Anyway…. I joined. Whether contributing anything beyond mere opinion, that’s another matter.
Wayfarer January 09, 2023 at 21:46 #770911
Quoting Mww
.didn’t S do the same thing with respect to Buddhist notions, as S accused Kant of doing with respect to the Greeks?


I don't think Schopenhauer's reading of Buddhism is that bad, especially considering he had no interactions with actual Buddhists, who he never could have encountered in his place and time. There's an essay in Magee's book on Schopenhauer on S and Eastern Philosophy.

So the entry in Britannica under Noumenon is wrong? (I'm not baiting you, it's quite possible it is wrong.)

noumenon, plural noumena, in the philosophy of Immanuel Kant, the thing-in-itself (das Ding an sich) as opposed to what Kant called the phenomenon—the thing as it appears to an observer. Though the noumenal holds the contents of the intelligible world, Kant claimed that man’s speculative reason can only know phenomena and can never penetrate to the noumenon. Man, however, is not altogether excluded from the noumenal because practical reason—i.e., the capacity for acting as a moral agent—makes no sense unless a noumenal world is postulated in which freedom, God, and immortality abide.


If it is a fair account, and that is how it is presented in many a text on Kant, then I think he can be accused of confusing noumenal and numinous - two words which appear superficially similar, but have very different roots and meanings. His use of the former really implies a meaning far nearer the latter.
Jamal January 09, 2023 at 22:10 #770922
Quoting Wayfarer
So the entry in Britannica under Noumenon is wrong?


Yes and no. They’re certainly not synonymous, as Britannica implies, but things as they are in themselves and noumena are closely related. Both are only thinkable, though some metaphysicians have also claimed that they can be actually apprehended directly, that is, through reason alone.

There’s no substitute for reading the thing, but there are also some good secondary texts.
Wayfarer January 09, 2023 at 22:29 #770927
Reply to Jamal I am using the online edition here https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4280/4280-h/4280-h.htm#chap04
Jamal January 09, 2023 at 22:31 #770929
Mww January 09, 2023 at 23:31 #770947
Quoting Wayfarer
So the entry in Britannica under Noumenon is wrong


I’m hardly qualified to criticize the contributors to an encyclopedia. I can say, without equivocation, that entry doesn’t reflect any of my understandings.

…..the capacity for acting as a moral agent—makes no sense unless a noumenal world is postulated in which freedom, God, and immortality abide.


Those are the three fundamental problems of pure reason, boiled down to the conceptions of the unconditioned, which pure reason seeks as its own nature demands, and never attains. There’s no need of a noumena world in which they abide, insofar as they already abide, at least as conceptions, in this world of human reason.
———-

Kant claimed that man’s speculative reason can only know phenomena


“…. For this result, then, we are indebted to a criticism which warns us of our unavoidable ignorance with regard to things in themselves, and establishes the necessary limitation of our theoretical cognition to mere phenomena.…”

“…. We come now to metaphysics, a purely speculative science, which occupies a completely isolated position and is entirely independent of the teachings of experience. It deals with mere conceptions—not, like mathematics, with conceptions applied to intuition—and in it, reason is the pupil of itself alone.…”

You be the judge.

I favor the B edition as well. I mean…spend a few years re-thinking something, best just go with that one. No sense in using what he thought better of, when talking about what he ended up thinking.




Mww January 10, 2023 at 14:10 #771106
Quoting Wayfarer
My notes on this: 'abstract' and 'intuitive' seems a very odd translation. I would have thought the distinction was between 'sensible' and 'rational' cognition, but I can't find the passage in Schopenhauer (if anyone has a precise reference I'd appreciate it.)


Dunno about precise, but this contains the beginning notations referring to the words in your notes:

“…. But thus Kant brings thinking into the perception, and lays the foundation for the inextricable confusion of intuitive and abstract knowledge which I am now engaged in condemning. He allows the perception, taken by itself, to be without understanding, purely sensuous, and thus quite passive, and only through thinking (category of the understanding) does he allow an object to be apprehended: thus he brings thought into the perception. But then, again, the object of thinking is an individual real object; and in this way thinking loses its essential character of universality and abstraction, and instead of general conceptions receives individual things as its object: thus again he brings perception into thinking. From this springs the inextricable confusion referred to, and the consequences of this first false step extend over his whole theory of knowledge….”
(WWR, 2, App., pg 35, 1844, in Haldane/Kemp, 1909)

Wayfarer January 10, 2023 at 21:26 #771241
Reply to Mww :up: Making my way (slowly) through the online editions of both (but it's hard to stay motivated.)

Manuel January 11, 2023 at 13:25 #771473
Reply to Wayfarer

Use them in so far as you find them interesting and/or, more importantly, useful.

In so far as Mww knows Kant in a way very few professionals do - despite his claims to the contrary - one need not go this far, unless you are so motivated, which you need not be. There is something to be said about writing clearly, which goes beyond mere aesthetic...

It would require, many, many years to become an expert at that level. But there is so much to read and learn, often people who are ignored of overlooked say interesting things too.

Having said that, it's a good thread, surely some will find plenty of value here.
Gregory January 11, 2023 at 19:47 #771549
Reply to Wayfarer

Kant struggled with his more Platonic side but cast doubt on things of the world and not being intuitively in touch with what only the mind can know, he thought of noumena as beyond categories of thought. For Aristotle, reason was the answer instead of faith. In his thought form and matter consists of a unity of substance and accidents (is prior logically to them) and accidents represent something of the substance. Not so with kant, where the appearance-accident-phenomena says nothing of what is beyond. It's like Kant is always looking over his shoulder wondering what reality could be. So he parted with Spinoza too in affirming practical will and belief
Wayfarer January 11, 2023 at 21:05 #771582
Reply to Manuel Yes it's a kind of paradoxical feeling - on the one hand, having (I think) a genuine affinity for Kant, but on the other, the awareness of how great the task is of understanding him thoroughly, and the patient work involved in doing that, and also the sense that, even if one does, there is no external motivation for it.

Reply to Gregory I think your diagnosis is pretty accurate. I'm pondering the possibility that Kant's fundamental definition of what amounts to knowledge precludes the possibility of the transformative nature of spiritual insight (gnosis, jñ?na). The French Thomistic philosopher, Jacques Maritain, said that Kant lacked what he described as 'the intuition of being' - I suspect he might be right in that.
Manuel January 11, 2023 at 21:48 #771597
Reply to Wayfarer

It took me a good 4 to 5 months to read the Critique, and mind you, I've read a decent amount of secondary literature. I won't deny that Kant has some very interesting theoretical observations, particularly concerning the relationship between things-in-themselves and experienced reality.

But I got more from the secondary literature honestly. I will go at it again - this time only reading version B, or however it is called.

You might get more (I know I did, on the whole) reading his Prolegomena, which is considerably clearer than the Critique. But, ymmv.
Wayfarer January 11, 2023 at 21:56 #771599
Quoting Manuel
I won't deny that Kant has some very interesting theoretical observations, particularly concerning the relationship between things-in-themselves and experienced reality.


To me, the absolutely crucial thing about Kant is his recognition that 'things conform to thoughts' rather than vice versa. I still think very few people really get the significance of that. If you understand it, it completely undercuts 'scientism'.

I should add I was introduced to Kant through a book called The Central Philosophy of Buddhism by T R V Murti. Murti was an Oxford-trained Indian scholar and Sanskritist, whose book was on the centrality of N?g?rjuna's philosophy to Buddhism. This was when I was in my twenties or early thirties, in my 'spiritual phase'. Murti draws extensive comparisons between N?g?rjuna, Kant, Hegel, Bradley and other philosophers. Nowadays he is mostly deprecated as being too Euro-centric in outlook but this book was formative for me. Have a look at this brief excerpt.
Manuel January 12, 2023 at 00:02 #771655
Reply to Wayfarer

Thanks, will do.

Yes, I should've added that that's what I found interesting in my reading of the Critique. But the point you mention is quite true and shouldn't require much by way of convincing, to think otherwise.
Mww January 12, 2023 at 12:01 #771779
Quoting Wayfarer
Making my way (slowly) through the online editions


FYI….the online Guyer/Wood has a fabulous 90-odd page translator introduction, also has standard pagination, but…..sadly….isn’t searchable. If some secondary literature references a A/B number, you can scroll to it, but with 700 pages…that’s potentially a lot of scrolling.

But the intro is worth the time, I think, even if it is technically a second-party interpretation.

https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/u.osu.edu/dist/5/25851/files/2017/09/kant-first-critique-cambridge-1m89prv.pdf
Wayfarer January 12, 2023 at 20:24 #771926
Reply to Mww Thanks! It is searchable if you download it and open it in Acrobat Pro. Properly bookmarked also. (I have the Penguin Classics edition in hard copy.)
Mww January 12, 2023 at 22:07 #771972
Reply to Wayfarer

Oh. Cool.

Quoting Wayfarer
…what I think the traditional meaning of 'noumenal' refers to- (…). (I'm still investigating what becomes of 'form and substance' in Kant.)


Are you attempting to relate the traditional meanings to form/substance in Kant? Connect them somehow? See how an investigation of the one would get you to the other?

As you said….no entrapment. Just curious.

Wayfarer January 12, 2023 at 22:11 #771974
Quoting Mww
Are you attempting to relate the traditional meanings to form/substance in Kant? Connect them somehow? See how an investigation of the one would get you to the other?


This book I have, Kant's Theory of Normativity, Exploring the Space of Reason, Konstantin Pollok, seems to be arguing that Kant adapted Aristotle's hylomorphism into his own 'transcendental hylomorphism'.
Mww January 12, 2023 at 23:24 #771990
Reply to Wayfarer

Yeah, I can see that. Change some terms here and there, but the basics would be pretty similar. Matter belongs to the object, form belongs to the subject, kinda thing, maybe?
Wayfarer January 12, 2023 at 23:40 #771997
Reply to Mww …that seems to the general thrust
val p miranda January 12, 2023 at 23:43 #771998
matter and form or not combinable. I think form is a result of the matter.
Mww January 13, 2023 at 00:04 #772001
Reply to val p miranda

Are you supposing that combining them has been attempted?
val p miranda January 13, 2023 at 00:11 #772002
No. but only if so, mentally. I checked definition and thought that post indicated that.
Mww January 13, 2023 at 00:46 #772011
Metaphysician Undercover January 14, 2023 at 12:33 #772493
Quoting val p miranda
matter and form or not combinable. I think form is a result of the matter.


Matter and form are combined in the material world. A material object has both matter and form. This principle is known as Aristotle's hylomorphism.

It is impossible that form is the result of the matter, because "form" refers to the object's actuality, what it actually is, and "matter" refers to its potential to be otherwise.

Now, the issue is that an object must have form, without this it has no actuality, and is not an object at all. This is how Aristotle excludes infinite potential, "prime matter", as a concept which has no real representation in the material world (in other words its a falsity used in deceptive ontology).

So, when an object comes into being it is necessarily the object which it is, it cannot be other than it is, by the law of identity. That's a statement about the nature of temporal (material) existence. And, the matter (potential) which an object has is necessarily ordered, by the object having a form (actuality). Therefore the form of the object is necessarily prior in time to the object's matter. This principle is covered in Plato's Timaeus, though Plato does not express the logical arguments given by Aristotle.
charles ferraro January 31, 2023 at 16:55 #777631
Each person who wills, or does not will, this or that state-of-affairs does so in terms of motives that are attempts to explain why the person wills, or does not will, this or that state-of-affairs.

However, each person's Will-to-Live, itself, has no explanatory motive for willing life -- it just does so.

That is why an unreasoning dreadful desperation usually sets in whenever a person is confronted with the immediate, undeniable, inescapable possibility of personal death. Each person is through and through nothing other than this primordial, unreasoning, blind Will-to-Live.

It is precisely the occurrence of this personal, visceral, subjective experience of the Thing-in-Itself as a Will-to-Live which clearly distinguishes the meaning of Schopenhauer's Thing-in-Itself from the meaning of Kant's Thing-in-Itself as the transcendent Unknowable.

As Albert Camus so aptly put it: "We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking."

Agent Smith February 02, 2023 at 09:46 #778146
@Wayfarer, the two truths doctrine (re Buddhism)?

Questions:

Why would our senses lie to us? Inversely, why would our senses tell us the truth? Is-ought gap? I seen no necessity that our senses be either truthful or mendacious. The ding an sich, whether it is or it is not, is not the most important problem on our hands, oui?
Wayfarer February 02, 2023 at 10:38 #778150
Quoting Agent Smith
I (see) no necessity that our senses be either truthful or mendacious


It's a truism that appearances can deceive. And I think that's because judgement is involved. Even in animal perception, appearances can be deliberately used to deceive, as in the myriad cases of camoflage by predators or prey. On the other hand, the senses can also be extraordinarily accurate - barn owls can hear a mouse moving a kilometer away or see by the light of a single candle the same distance. But only humans are required to make judgements about truth in the abstract, to reflect on the meaning of their experiences, about what experience means.

I've often discussed the two truths doctrine. It's greeted with scepticism from naturalists, because it claims there's a higher truth (paramathasatya). That scepticism is because, I believe, modern thought doesn't have a category for 'the unconditioned' (except for perhaps in formal logic). I think it's a major deficiency. I suppose that is because in Western culture, 'the unconditioned' is nearly always associated with God, which puts it out-of-bounds for naturalist or secular philosophy. But that is a very big question.

(This made me think again about the role of revealed truth in Buddhism. Many would say that Buddhism rejects the idea of revealed truth, but really the Buddha's enlightenment is said to reveal the truth of the cause of suffering and its end. In that sense Buddhism is not so vastly removed from other religions.)

In any case, Buddhism and Schopenhauer both diagnose human ills as originating in a mistaken judgement about the nature of existence (or experience, which amounts to the same). They both, in different ways, say that humans attribute reality to things that have no genuine or real being, so we're attached to an illusory realm which inevitably dissappoints us because it doesn't bring us the joy we thought we could get from it. Schopenhauer and Buddhism are both described as 'pessimistic' on those grounds, but that fails to see that there can be freedom from that condition.
Agent Smith February 02, 2023 at 10:57 #778153
Reply to Wayfarer

Well said and on point! A Buddhist monk, once, was looking up the English translation of a Tibetan phrase and after much gnashing and gnawing of the teeth (he was suffering, but he didn't seem to realize, I kept me mouth shut), he exclaimed "Aha! The Ultimate Nature of Reality". I guess he was referring to the second of the two truths (post demayafication).

My problem, everyone's except for a few perhaps, is that the only conduit for perception (both of ourselves and the world out there) is our senses (the 5 physical and the sixth, mind) and there's no reason at all why they should be truthful or untruthful. The reality of noumena is not as urgent an issue as the unreliability of our phenomena.
Metaphysician Undercover February 02, 2023 at 11:32 #778157
Quoting Agent Smith
My problem, everyone's except for a few perhaps, is that the only conduit for perception (both of ourselves and the world out there) is our senses (the 5 physical and the sixth, mind) and there's no reason at all why they should be truthful or untruthful. The reality of noumena is not as urgent an issue as the unreliability of our phenomena.


Why would you class the mind as a sixth sense? The idea that the mind acts as a sixth sense was dispelled by Aristotle, a long time ago. The mind unifies the senses, it does not act as a distinct sense.
Agent Smith February 02, 2023 at 11:44 #778158
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Why would you class the mind as a sixth sense? The idea that the mind acts as a sixth sense was dispelled by Aristotle, a long time ago. The mind unifies the senses, it does not act as a distinct sense.


How, pray tell, did Aristotle dispel the notion of mind as a (the) (sixth) sense?
Metaphysician Undercover February 02, 2023 at 12:20 #778165
Reply to Agent Smith
It's at the beginning of Bk. 3, On the Soul. Basically, if there was one common sense (the sixth sense), which could receive the objects of multiple senses, sound and colour for example, that sense organ would receive both types of sensations through the same medium (the same organ), so that it would not be able to distinguish between a sensation of one type, and a sensation of the other type. So for example, it would not be able to distinguish that a sound is a different type of sensation from a colour, because both would be received through the same medium..

Therefore we must conclude that the mind, which has the capacity to distinguish one type of sensation from another type of sensation, is not itself another sense. This is basic to understanding "categories". The thing which separates or distinguishes one category from another cannot be classed as either.

Agent Smith February 02, 2023 at 15:19 #778185
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover

Interesting. Of course those who claimed the mind is a sense have their own (good) argument.
Wayfarer February 02, 2023 at 20:58 #778230
In Buddhist abhidharma (philosophical psychology) mind (manas) is one of the six sense-gates - eye and visible objects, ear and sound, nose and odor, tongue and taste, body and touch, mind and mental objects. But let's not take the thread further in that direction as Buddhist psychology is a vast subject in its own right.

Quoting Agent Smith
My problem, everyone's except for a few perhaps, is that the only conduit for perception (both of ourselves and the world out there) is our senses (the 5 physical and the sixth, mind) and there's no reason at all why they should be truthful or untruthful.


But as I said, humans are self-aware beings. We can make decisions, decide on courses of action, plan to get or to avoid, and so all - all manner of things. Doing that, we constantly make judgements about what matters, what can be ignored, what must be acquired, and so on. That happens from from the autonomic level up to the conscious level, constantly. Sensory perception is only one element in this, the other being intellection or rational judgement (not to mention impulse, desire, emotion....) So what you're talking about is not something simple.
Metaphysician Undercover February 03, 2023 at 00:36 #778267
Quoting Wayfarer
But as I said, humans are self-aware beings. We can make decisions, decide on courses of action, plan to get or to avoid, and so all - all manner of things. Doing that, we constantly make judgements about what matters, what can be ignored, what must be acquired, and so on. That happens from from the autonomic level up to the conscious level, constantly. Sensory perception is only one element in this, the other being intellection or rational judgement (not to mention impulse, desire, emotion....) So what you're talking about is not something simple.


Another good reason why the mind is radically different from a sense, and ought not be classed as a sense.
Agent Smith February 03, 2023 at 01:23 #778270
Reply to Wayfarer

:up: Indeed, it ain't in any way simple. I'm just questioning the reliability of the entire perceptual and analytical system (mind + senses) - both have been known to lie (delusions + hallucinations + illusions). I'm referring to well-documentesd psychological conditions to support this claim. I guess it boils down to the question "how do you know you're not mad?"
Wayfarer February 03, 2023 at 01:34 #778273
Reply to Agent Smith By the standards of the enlightened, everyone is indeed a bit mad. (According to Buddhist scholar William S. Waldron there is a Pali aphorism 'Sabbe satt? ummattaka' meaning 'all sentient beings are deranged', although the canonicity of that phrase has been disputed (source.)) Indeed in many pre-modern traditions, the normal human condition is seen as one of inherent delusion or confusion. I think that's the meaning of avidya or ignorance in Eastern religions. In Christianity, however, this has come down as the 'original sin', making it a volitional rather than a cognitive defect, and so far less tractable to a strictly philosophical analysis. But there's still an overlap there.

In any case, one of the basic features of the modern liberal political system is to make the world a safe place in which to remain ignorant. Cynical, I know, but there you have it. On the upside, at least in the free West you're allowed to make such criticisms of the culture you're in.
Agent Smith February 03, 2023 at 01:47 #778276
Quoting Wayfarer
Sabbe satt? ummattaka


Précisément! If everyone is insane, who do we turn to to lead us to the light? It's like a group of adventurers lost in the woods, each one has a map (model), but all maps (models) are wrong. I suppose my epistemic nihilism is showing.
Wayfarer February 03, 2023 at 01:59 #778279
Reply to Agent Smith There are degrees. Normality is not 'insane' by definition, but there's a range. I mean, there's been discussion of the fact that sociopaths and psychopaths often succeed in climbing the corporate ladder due to their ruthlessness. There are widespread kinds of mental health issues amongst the populace, and anxiety, depression and drug dependency are widespread. Many of those subjects are not insane by any stretch but they're also not optimally adjusted.

I wrote a blog post once on the 'bell curve of normality' - on the left, those with severe mental health or personality disorders, then the middle of the bell curve, where most people are (it being a bell curve!) but then on the extreme right the really high-functioning types who are as far above the norm as the left side is beneath it. That can be mapped against Maslow's 'heirarchy of needs', meaning that on the right, there's your highly self-actualised individuals. Very difficult to judge who that might be, of course.

But I'm struggling to think of where you would look for the criteria to make this judgement. As Freud says, his yardstick for sanity was really just the ability to live, work, and maintain relationships. But I think that philosophy looks for something rather deeper than that.
Agent Smith February 03, 2023 at 02:16 #778285
Reply to Wayfarer

Deeply insightful post. Psychological health is based on, as you said, how adversely one's current emotions/thoughts affect what's a "normal life" (the ability to live, work, and maintain relationships).

Philosophical sanity/insanity is quite a different animal - the "normal life" psychologists value (as described succinctly and completely by you above) is actually what madness really is: Diogenes' home was a tub, he answered nature's calls & masturbated in public, he was a great philosopher; Socrates willingly drank hemlock; the only real philosophical problem is suicide said Camus to whom we're all Sisyphus.