Is truth always context independent ?

invicta April 19, 2023 at 18:57 7075 views 113 comments
The sky is blue only applies during daytime therefore in this scenario truth is context dependent.

1+1 = 2 is true in all circumstances because it’s a calculation performed on numerical values.

In this aspect we get some truths being changeable and some being constant.

But are such statements as the first one of any value to the philosopher when its truth value changes with the conditions (context) from which the statement is made?

On the other hand statements such as the ones in the second examples are tautologies but in a sense are more valuable in modern setting as they’re the basis of calculators and more complex computational machines which we rely on in the modern world.

My question is quite simple.

If truth is not an axiom that can be applied universally then are such truth statements as the first one in this OP useless?

Edit: title changed to reflect correct line of inquiry.

Comments (113)

Vera Mont April 19, 2023 at 20:33 #801371
Quoting invicta
If truth is not an axiom that can be applied universally then are such truth statements as the first one in this OP useless?


If they were useless, they wouldn't be used. If they were not widely and frequently useful, they would not be so widely and frequently used.
All communication takes place in a context, is coherent only because it contains an internal logic, and is useful only so all participants in a conversation understand both these things. A truth is useless only when one attempts to transpose from one function to another.

But are such statements as the first one of any value to the philosopher when its truth value changes with the conditions (context) from which the statement is mad


Depends on the philosopher and the question that philosopher wants to probe.
invicta April 19, 2023 at 20:39 #801372
Reply to Vera Mont

Interesting.

Take the following statement below as not only being out of context but also being untruthful.

All red apples are sweet

In the above statement would you say it’s useless by the mere fact that it’s out of context or that it is untrue ?
~~~

Now let’s turn to a truthful universal statement

Apples grow on trees

The above has informative value in any given context as it informs the uninformed that apples grow on trees.
ToothyMaw April 19, 2023 at 20:55 #801377
Quoting invicta
are such statements as the first one of any value to the philosopher when its truth value changes with the conditions (context) from which the statement is made?


Quoting invicta
On the other hand statements such as the ones in the second examples are tautologies but in a sense are more valuable in modern setting as they’re the basis of calculators and more complex computational machines which we rely on in the modern world.


Yes, truths that are modulated according to conditions are useful, if that is what you are getting at.

For instance, I might say about a person's decision to act in a certain way:

If one has the ability to have chosen otherwise, then one has free will insofar as the truth of different possible future outcomes is concerned. That is a pretty basic way of summarizing compatibilism.

But in the second quote you seem to be talking about algorithms. Algorithms - as exemplified by the Turing machine, which can implement any conceivable computer algorithm given enough time and a long enough strip of paper - are processes that we follow to make calculations or solve problems. They do not have to be tautological, or even true, but rather (ideally) efficient, possessing a finite number of steps, and directed at solving some specific problem.

Quoting invicta
Take the following statement below as not only being out of context but also being untruthful

All red apples are sweet

In the above statement would you say it’s useless be the mere fact that it’s out of context or that it is untrue ?


It could be useful even out of context if it were an integral part of a list of steps in an algorithm, which doesn't require truthfulness but rather something more contextual directed at solving a problem.

If it were just untrue then it just wouldn't be a good basis for a philosophical argument.

Quoting invicta
Apples grow on trees

The above has informative value in any given context as it informs the uninformed that apples grow on trees


This is better for a basis for an argument because it is universally true and also informs.
Vera Mont April 19, 2023 at 21:03 #801383
Quoting invicta
All red apples are sweet

In the above statement would you say it’s useless by the mere fact that it’s out of context or that it is untrue ?

It's useless in describing apples, but useful in illustrating an untruthful statement for the purpose of discussion.

Quoting invicta
Apples grow on trees

The above has informative value in any given context as it informs the uninformed that apples grow on trees.


It's informative regarding the provenance of apples - and meaningful to anyone who either wants to know something about apples and is willing to continue the investigation (since, obviously, this snippet of truth is insufficient). It's completely useless in response to such questions as: "What colour is this thing? and "Is this apple sweet?", utter nonsense in the context of celestial navigation and meaningless noise to speaker of Mandarin.


[
invicta April 19, 2023 at 21:12 #801385
Reply to ToothyMaw

The algorithm for determining if red apples are sweet is true.

Step 1 is apple sweet true ? No ? Go step two
Step 2 is red apple sweet true ? No ? Go step three
Step 3 is green apple sweet ? No? Go step four
Step 4 output: green apple sweet no. Red apple sweet no.

//

Step 1 is apple sweet ? Yes/No - unable to determine give input.

Input 50% apple sweet/50% apple bitter

Step 2 determine is apple sweet.

Output Apple 50% chance of being sweet.

Input 3 is red apple sweet? Yes/no, 50% chance

Output 50% chance


invicta April 19, 2023 at 21:36 #801389
Reply to Vera Mont Quoting Vera Mont
Is this apple sweet?", utter nonsense in the context of celestial navigation and meaningless noise to speaker of Mandarin.


In the context of a farmer wanting to grow bitter apples to make Cider then useful, correct? In the context of the same farmer wanting to buy a rocket ship from profits of such farming useful, correct ?
In the context of the purchase of star maps for celestial navigation useful correct ?

In conclusion determining if an Apple is sweet or bitter enables the farmer to go to the stars.

Correct!
ToothyMaw April 19, 2023 at 21:37 #801390
Reply to invicta

Yes, that appears to be correct. But how does that relate to truthfulness? That algorithm is just useful for determining whether red apples are sweet. It doesn't actually tell us that red apples are sweet; we would need to test the two types of apples. That's the point I'm making.
Vera Mont April 19, 2023 at 22:50 #801410
Quoting invicta
In the context of a farmer wanting to grow bitter apples to make Cider then useful, correct?


I think he already knows they grow on trees. Quoting invicta
In conclusion determining if an Apple is sweet or bitter enables the farmer to go to the stars


No, it doesn't, and the fact that they grow on trees has no effect on their flavour.

And putting a response in the context of the wrong question makes no point.
invicta April 23, 2023 at 18:09 #802499

Quoting Vera Mont
No, it doesn't, and the fact that they grow on trees has no effect on their flavour.

And putting a response in the context of the wrong question makes no point.


You are missing the point. Your failure in seeing the relevance of a celestial star map to the cider brewer is about connecting the dots from revenue generation via brewing cider to their ambition to go to space.

Quoting ToothyMaw
It doesn't actually tell us that red apples are sweet; we would need to test the two types of apples. That's the point I'm making.


The algo would tell you that given enough info whether the apple is sweet or bitter before you even tasted it.

But as a general principle and the point of this thread is that decontextualising some statements can alter its truth value from true, too uncertain to completely untrue.

I say some statements above because there are other statements that are universally true irrespective of context such as 1+1 = 2

I must point out too that there’s a subtle difference between knowledge and truth as well with truth retaining an objective relationship to some aspect of reality whereas knowledge being more subjective in some ways such as the personal knowledge that the Apple you just ate is indeed sweet.





mcdoodle April 23, 2023 at 20:32 #802537
Reply to invicta '1+1=2' is only true within a certain system of signs, so is conditional in its own way, isn't it?
Vera Mont April 23, 2023 at 20:44 #802544
Quoting invicta
You are missing the point. Your failure in seeing the relevance of a celestial star map to the cider brewer is about connecting the dots from revenue generation via brewing cider to their ambition to go to space.


That may be so, but it's not in the example you presented. Quoting invicta
But as a general principle and the point of this thread is that decontextualising some statements can alter its truth value from true, too uncertain to completely untrue


No, it can't.
It can, however, render it inapplicable, irrelevant or nonsensical. Just as you demonstrated.
invicta April 23, 2023 at 20:45 #802545
Reply to Vera Mont Quoting Vera Mont
It can, however, render it inapplicable, irrelevant or nonsensical. Just as you demonstrated.


Isn’t that the same thing as untrue, uncertain etc…I think you’re just using different words …
invicta April 23, 2023 at 20:48 #802547
Reply to mcdoodle

That would be a question of mathematics itself and its construction.

Yes signs indicate operation as a given, if they did not then the statement 1+1 = 2 would be meaningless.
mcdoodle April 23, 2023 at 20:55 #802552
Reply to invicta Well, 1+1 = 10 in a binary system, to take the simplest example where the signs to the left of the '=' might imply a different sign to the right. I never grasp why 1+1=2 is taken as some sort of truism in all contexts, that's all I mean.
Vera Mont April 23, 2023 at 23:05 #802576
Quoting invicta
Isn’t that the same thing as untrue, uncertain etc…I think you’re just using different words …


I'm using different words that mean different things, because I intend to convey different meanings.
The truth or falsehood of a statement, such as "Mammals are warm-blooded animals." is unaffected by the fact that they are not applicable to question such as "Do apples taste like bananas?"
It doesn't matter how convoluted a line from the taxonomy of animals to the chemical components of flavour, the statement remains true.
invicta April 23, 2023 at 23:49 #802578
Quoting Vera Mont
The truth or falsehood of a statement, such as "Mammals are warm-blooded animals." is unaffected by the fact that they are not applicable to question such as "Do apples taste like bananas?"


I don’t understand you here. What are you trying to say ?

invicta April 23, 2023 at 23:58 #802579
Quoting Vera Mont
It doesn't matter how convoluted a line from the taxonomy of animals to the chemical components of flavour, the statement remains true.


Again this is incoherent please can you tell me what you’re trying to say as I don’t understand the way it’s been written.
jgill April 24, 2023 at 00:40 #802581
Quoting invicta
1+1 = 2 is true in all circumstances because it’s a calculation performed on values which are simple by their numerical nature


No. Better stay away from mathematics for your "true under any circumstances" example.
Vera Mont April 24, 2023 at 03:04 #802591
Quoting invicta
Again this is incoherent


The whole apple sequence is.
1. Red = sweet: F
2. Apples grow on trees: T
Neither statement, nor their respective falsehood and truth, is affected by farmers, their nationality, cider press or rocketship.
A The statement is either true or false.
B The statement is either responsive to a particular question, or it is not.
A and B are not interdependent: either, both or neither may be true without affecting the truth or falsehood of 1. and 2.
C: Truth is not context-dependent.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 03:22 #802594
It's sentences that are true or false.

What a sentence says is dependent on it's circumstances (context, language, purpose, consequence, and so on)

Hence it is sentences that are "context driven"; not truth.

Metaphysician Undercover April 24, 2023 at 11:35 #802630
Quoting Banno
Hence it is sentences that are "context driven"; not truth.


What could this possibly mean? Are use suggesting that context "drives" the sentence like a person would "drive" a car, a team of horses, or a herd of cattle? What exactly is context doing here which qualifies your use of "driven", to say that the sentence is driven by context?

it seems to me, that it would be more appropriate to propose that it is what the sentence says (it's meaning) which is true or false, and this, "meaning", is dependent on the context. Doesn't that make more sense to you?
invicta April 24, 2023 at 11:41 #802632
@Banno

If a truth’s manifold ways of expression includes sentences via vocalisation as well as visual representation then truth can be context dependent or universal as I’ve tried to demonstrate.

For example

All trees have foliage is only contextually true when it’s summer and partially true as coniferous trees have foliage all year round.

In any given context the below sentence would be true:

All trees are made of wood

invicta April 24, 2023 at 11:50 #802635
Quoting Vera Mont
C: Truth is not context-dependent.


Supposing then the farmer utters this sentence in the middle of summer.

Today is a hot day.

The thermometer would agree reading 40Celsius.

These two truth values are not only context dependent but interdependent as a hot day is affirmed to be true by the thermometer reading.

It is context dependent because it would not be a hot day in the middle of winter when the thermometer reads -5 Celsius.

And as the truthfulness of such a statement depends on mutual agreement between two or more subjects then it’s no longer subjective (context dependent) but objective (context independent) for certain statements only which are subject to change such as current heat level.

To sum up, objectively true statements are only true if accord can be given to them by the subjects to which such a statement applies hence Today is a hot day would no longer be true objectively when the mercury falls but it could be true to an Eskimo whose conception of heat is different to a farmer.

But this does not include certain statements which hold true universally such as Apples Grow on Trees. You could negate this of course by growing your own Apple artificially in a lab without the tree at all (somehow) or statements like the The Earth is Round. Objectively true, no context needed, truth value remains absolute.
Vera Mont April 24, 2023 at 14:11 #802692
Quoting invicta
Supposing then the farmer utters this sentence in the middle of summer.

Today is a hot day.

The thermometer would agree reading 40Celsius.


That is not a T/F statement; it is a subjective judgment.
A thermometer measures increments of heat; it does not indicate truth or falsehood.
A day is a measure of time, one rotation of a planet; it has no temperature.

The statement as written is a typical human habit: the imprecise use of terminology.
It would be more accurately stated as: "The air feels hot to me today."
If both participants in a conversation have a similar metabolism and speak the same language, the speaker does not need to phrase it this way to get his meaning across, because the hearer automatically fills in the omitted and information and compensates for the misattribution of property.

Quoting invicta
And as the truthfulness of such a statement depends on mutual agreement between two or more subjects then it’s no longer subjective (context dependent) but objective (context independent)


It is just the other way around.
Linguistic intuition and shared experience do not influence objective truth,while subjective truth cannot be verified from independent external sources.





invicta April 24, 2023 at 14:20 #802694
Reply to Vera Mont

Would you then say that truth is relative in this given scenario.

The temperature is high right now!

(at 40Celsius)

Or would such a statement have no relevance to truth relatively or absolutely?
Vera Mont April 24, 2023 at 14:43 #802701
Quoting invicta
Would you then say that truth is relative in this given scenario.

The temperature is high right now
(at 40Celsius)

Or would such a statement have no relevance to truth relatively or absolutely?


It is not a T/F proposition; it's an opinion or observation by a conscious entity, made in imprecise language.
In order to be true or false, its non-sloppily worded version would read:
The temperature [ of an unspecified physical substance] is higher [on the Celsius scale] than 39 and lower than 41 degrees.
All comparative descriptions are relative; only true in relation to something else, whether the "else" is stated or not, understood or not. All statements regarding quantity are relative; therefore the term "truth value" is applicable only in a particular context.
It's not the "truth value" of the statement that's in question but the applicability and relevance of the statement to the topic of a communication.

In short, truth is not a property of subjective observations; it resides in the contextual judgment of the observer. The only "truth value" such a statement could have is in the sincerity of the person making it - which can perhaps be verified by a lie detector... if lie detectors were reliable.
Judaka April 24, 2023 at 16:02 #802705
Reply to invicta
"Truth" conceptually is a mess, but I think generally, the idea is that by calling something true, you are asserting it is independent of the context of the speaker, and not that it is context-independent. The logic for why it's independent of the speaker is based on rules, such as the rules of a language. "It is true that the first letter of a sentence should be capitalised in English", for example. Or based on agreed-upon rules for measuring something, like "It is true that Messi is an accomplished soccer player". There is no such thing as "accomplishment", it's a man-made concept, but it's so apparent that Messi should be by any person's account considered accomplished as a soccer player, that one could call it a truth.

"Truth" is an entirely man-made concept, in reality, "truth" doesn't exist, things simply are, I suppose. There aren't necessarily any agreed-upon rules for this, just a test that an individual or group made up. Whether that actually makes this subjective or not, is the thing that's context-dependent, I'd say.
Metaphysician Undercover April 24, 2023 at 18:21 #802730
Quoting invicta
And as the truthfulness of such a statement depends on mutual agreement between two or more subjects then it’s no longer subjective (context dependent) but objective (context independent) for certain statements only which are subject to change such as current heat level.




Hmm, agreement between two or more subjects produces truth and objectivity? That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 18:32 #802731
Reply to Metaphysician Undercover

If two or more parties agree by experience that it is currently hot then that is truth.

How do you get conspiracy out of that?

If two parties agree that the moon landings were faked then we’re in conspiracy territory indeed that is if the majority consensus says that the moon landings we’re in fact real.

In effect truth is a matter of agreed upon consensus reflecting reality.

If it’s agreed consensus with no basis in reality then indeed conspiracy.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 20:14 #802751
Quoting Judaka
"Truth" is an entirely man-made concept, in reality, "truth" doesn't exist, things simply are, I suppose. There aren't necessarily any agreed-upon rules for this, just a test that an individual or group made up. Whether that actually makes this subjective or not, is the thing that's context-dependent, I'd say.


Truth is self-evident and its power lies in its ability to describe reality.

Triangles have 3 sides.
The ocean is made of water.
The earth is round.

The above three statements cannot be disputed in terms of them being truthful. They are self evident.

Truth is used to convey truthful information to another person and is the progenitor of the scientific method and inquiry.

What is true what is not, is a very important question to ask as it propels one towards the knowable or deception.

Truth remains the truth even if there are no minds to perceive it as reality exists independent of minds. So to claim that truth is man made as you have is to ignore reality as every truth must reflect reality, or the way things are.
Vera Mont April 24, 2023 at 20:47 #802758
Quoting invicta
Triangles have 3 sides.


Of course it's true: that's how it was invented: What is a triangle? A closed figure with three sides and three angles.

Quoting invicta
The ocean is made of water.


What is an ocean? Can you define it anything other than water?

Once you make a general statement beyond the confines of the definition, it becomes debatable; the more description you add and the less precise your language, the farther you wander into subjective territory.

What shape is the Earth?
Quoting invicta
The earth is round.


Approximation of a truth; imprecise.
While the Earth appears to be round when viewed from the vantage point of space, it is actually closer to an ellipsoid. However, even an ellipsoid does not adequately describe the Earth’s unique and ever-changing shape.


Facts are not man-made, but they are perceived by humans with variable degrees of accuracy and reported with variable degrees of precision - and sincerity.

Banno April 24, 2023 at 20:58 #802760
Quoting invicta
All trees are made of wood


Family trees?

invicta April 24, 2023 at 20:59 #802761
In any case round or ellipsoid the function of truth is an accurate description of reality.

There are statements which by their nature are undeniable in their claims I.e truth/s

The sun emits light.
Cows don’t make eggs
Chickens have feathers until you pluck them.
The heart pumps blood around the body.

@Vera Mont

Which of the above statements would you like to dispute and get anal with?
invicta April 24, 2023 at 21:00 #802762
Reply to Banno

Ok you can add fake plastic Xmas trees too, you get the gist.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 21:13 #802764
Quoting invicta
you get the gist.


But I don't think you do. Any truth can be set out in a statement. It is the statement that is context dependent, not it's truth.

Is truth always context dependent? Yes, because it is statements that are true, and stements are context-dependent.

180 Proof April 24, 2023 at 21:15 #802765
Quoting Banno
It's sentences that are true or false.

What a sentence says is dependent on it's circumstances (context, language, purpose, consequence, and so on)

Hence it is sentences that are "context driven"; not truth.

Reply to Banno

:100: :fire:

Thanks (even though its lost on most of them).
invicta April 24, 2023 at 21:15 #802766
Reply to Banno

As family trees don’t refer to actual trees but conceptual generational lineage then that statement seems true regardless of context.

Plastic trees of course undermine in a way, but only in the way I did not anticipate the artificial trees as human invention, thus not real trees.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 21:17 #802767
Quoting invicta
The above three statements cannot be disputed in terms of them being truthful. They are self evident.


The oceans on Titan are methane.
Vera Mont April 24, 2023 at 21:19 #802770
Quoting invicta
Which of the above statements would you like to dispute and get anal with?


Not disputing the truth of facts. I was asking you whether there is any extra information conveyed by repeating the definition of something, and further asserting that the more approximate information you add, the more farther you get from fact and closer to opinion.

Quoting invicta
The sun emits light.
Cows don’t make eggs
Chickens have feathers until you pluck them.
The heart pumps blood around the body.


All of these can be true statements. So can a great many others. Does that make them "context-driven?" Cows won't make eggs, even if you put them in a rocket-ship bound for the moon and translate the sentence to Lunatic.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 21:19 #802771
Reply to Banno

True if verifiable
Vera Mont April 24, 2023 at 21:23 #802772
Quoting Banno
The oceans on Titan are methane.


Are they still technically "oceans", or do we just use the term because they resemble bodies of water that we observe on Earth? The same can be said of family trees and the tree of life - which are metaphors - and artificial constructs made to imitate trees.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 21:25 #802773
Reply to Vera Mont

The statement can be easily modified to say

Oceans are made of liquid.

In that case it would hold true if it was on earth or some far flung moon.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 21:26 #802774

Quoting invicta
As family trees don’t refer to actual trees


My family tree is "actual".

Quoting invicta
True if verifiable

It'll be true, or it'll be false, whether you are able to verify it or not. Truth doesn't care what you believe. or why.


Quoting invicta
If truth is not an axiom that can be applied universally then are such truth statements as the first one in this OP useless?


Truth is not an axiom. Axioms are statements that are taken to be true.

So I'm nto sure what you are asking about. Can you paraphrase? "The sky is blue" will be true only if the sky is blue. And, as it turns out, the sky (here, now, as the sun rises) is indeed blue.
Vera Mont April 24, 2023 at 21:27 #802775
Quoting invicta
The statement can be easily modified to say

Oceans are made of liquid.


The sentence can be modified; the definition of "ocean" can be modified. You can even modify both to the point of gibberish, but that still won't make it context-dependent.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 21:27 #802776
Quoting invicta
Oceans are made of liquid.


Ah, nice. You have oceans of counterexamples.

invicta April 24, 2023 at 21:29 #802778
Reply to Vera Mont

You see the word ocean gives context to the whole statement otherwise you’re right.

How does the word ocean give context ? It gives context to the liquid mass, for which without it would not be an ocean.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 21:30 #802779
Reply to Banno

Quoting Banno
Ah, nice. You have oceans of counterexamples.


You’re finally starting to see the wood for the trees.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 21:32 #802781
Quoting Banno
So I'm nto sure what you are asking about. Can you paraphrase? "The sky is blue" will be true only if the sky is blue. And, as it turns out, the sky (here, now, as the sun rises) is indeed blue.


This is the point I’m trying to make as the sky can appear red when setting. So truth changes value from blue to red.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 21:32 #802782
Banno April 24, 2023 at 21:34 #802784
Quoting invicta
This is the point I’m trying to make as the sky can appear red when setting. So truth changes value from blue to red.


You are saying it wrong. Truth did not change value. The sentence"the sky is blue" was true, and now it isn't. It's the sky that changed, not "truth".

Vera Mont April 24, 2023 at 21:35 #802785
Quoting invicta
How does the word ocean give context ?

It doesn't. That is a word, and nothing more. If you have a solid (when frozen) definition of ocean, it provides an object or image to place into a senetence, which can then become a communication, which has a context.
But if you've modified the word to where it might as easily be a glass of milk or a barrel of gasoline, then "ocean" no longer refers to large body of salt water. It is meaningless without elaboration: e.g. an ocean of methane, an ocean of counterexamples.

Banno April 24, 2023 at 21:38 #802786
Language is not just about moving ideas from head to head. Indeed, that metaphor is very problematic.



invicta April 24, 2023 at 21:38 #802787
Quoting Vera Mont
That is a word, and nothing more


A word which of course refers to a certain large body of water/liquid etc.

If there was no water or liquid upon it, it would just be landmass.

Hence context of words within sentences referring to actual things in the real world being important aspect in articulation of truths.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 21:39 #802788
Quoting 180 Proof
Thanks (even though its lost on most of them).


It's the engineers, again. Worse than christians.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 21:43 #802789
Reply to Banno

The sky changed colour of course there’s no denying that.

The truth changed too because of a lack of constancy in the colour of the sky.

Another truthful statement would be:

The sky can change color.

It’s truth wrapped up nicely in a sentence, deny it if you like, you’d be denying the truth, the sentence expressing said truth and natural phenomena.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 21:55 #802792
Quoting invicta
The truth changed too despite a lack of constancy in the colour of the sky.


No, what was true changed; the truth didn't.

What you are suggesting in the OP remains unclear, but...

There is a difference between the nature of truth, and the things which are true; between the use of "...is true" and the things which are true or not. The former can remain constant, while the latter changers. SO
"The sky is blue" is true

holds at one time, and
"The sky is red" is true

holds at another; and what changes is the colour of the sky, not the nature of "...is true".

In both cases - indeed, in all cases,
"P" is true iff P

remains so. For whatever statement you substitute for P. in this regard, "...is true" is not context dependent.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 21:57 #802793
Quoting Vera Mont
Are they still technically "oceans"


'Technically"?

Yes, they are oceans.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 22:02 #802795
Quoting Banno
No, what was true changed; the truth didn't.


Are you being serious here?

I will take it as being serious.

What is the truth then regarding the color of the sky? One of the properties of the sky is its ability to change colour depending on the position of the sun, so both statements are true: the sky is red when it is indeed red and the sky is blue when it’s blue.

But so what, the truth changed with the colour, why is this a big deal to you ?
Banno April 24, 2023 at 22:15 #802798
Quoting invicta
Are you being serious here?


Very.

The problem seems to me to be that you have not set out the issue you wish to address with sufficient clarity. And I think that if you were to do so, you might see that there is no issue.

What I would have you notice is that what is changing is the colour of the sky, not the nature of truth.

Think carefully about the difference between the nature of truth on the one hand, and what is or isn't true.

Here's a sentence about the nature of truth: For any statement "P",
"P" is true if and only if P
Now I think this is pretty much as much as can be said about the nature of truth.

Here's a sentence about the sky:
The sky is blue

And another:
"The sky is blue" is true

Notice that this last is first about the sentence "the sky is blue" and second about the colour of the sky?

Quoting invicta
What is the truth then regarding the color of the sky? One of the properties of the sky is its ability to change colour so both statements are true the sky is red when it is indeed red and the sky is blue when it’s blue.


Indeed, and that is a way to phrase what I have been saying. It is the sky that changes colour. So what is or isn't true can change; but that is not a change in the nature of truth.


Try it this way. Consider
"The kettle is boiling" is true
and
"The tree has three branches" is true.

What changes between these two sentence is the stuff in quotes, not the predicate "...is true". It is the same in both. It does not change with the context.

Compare this with your title.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 22:21 #802800
Reply to Banno

I do not see how your requirements for what is the truth counteract my OP at all.

I’ve distinguished between two types of truths the constants and the variables right from the outset when I laid out my OP, so I’m sticking with it as I remain unconvinced by your assertions so far that truth is unchangable and not derived from context or independent of context.

The point of my OP is to defend both the changeable and unchangeable truths (constant and variable)

…i.e. both contextual truths and truths holding on their own independent of context.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 22:46 #802804
Reply to invicta :grin:

I'm not at all sure what it is you are saying in you OP, so I am not in a position to say if what I say is agreeing with or "counteracting" it.

I guess I'm trying to understand what your claim is.

You now say that it is about "two types of truths"... Are you talking about "triangles have three sides " as opposed to "the sky is blue"? Well, one might argue that there are different types of statements, say necessary and contingent; or a priori and a posteriori. But that's again not saying that there are different types of truth.

And Quine can be read as saying that these two distinctions cannot be made clear. HIs empiricism says roughly that even supposed necessary truths can be subject to review.

Again, my point is the simple, small one that you seem to be talking about different sorts of sentences, but mistakenly saying that these are different sorts of truths.

There is only one sort of truth.

invicta April 24, 2023 at 22:50 #802805
Quoting Banno
You now say that it is about "two types of truths"... Are you talking about "triangles have three sides " as opposed to "the sky is blue"?


Exactly that! Thank you

You claim that there is only one sort of truth, well I claim that there are two. Constant truth which never changes night or day and the variable type that changes the colour of the sky night or day.

You get me rudeboi!

Banno April 24, 2023 at 22:53 #802808
Quoting invicta
You claim that there is only one sort of truth, well I claim that there are two. Constant truth which never changes night or day and the variable type that changes the colour of the sky night or day.


That's two different sorts of sentences, not to different sorts of truth.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 22:54 #802809
@Banno

If we were to both take pictures of the sky where we are being in opposite sides of the world my sky would be dark yours would be blue.

We would of course both be right and both be truthful in our assertions relating to the colour of the sky.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 22:55 #802810
Quoting invicta
If we were to both take pictures of the sky where we are being in opposite sides of the world my sky would be dark yours would be blue.


Yes.

Quoting invicta
We would of course both be right and both be truthful in our assertions relating to the colour of the sky.


Yes.

So what.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 22:56 #802811
@Banno

So what ? Truth is not constant, perhaps re-read my op.

But it’s also constant.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 23:00 #802812
See, if you changed your title to "Is what is true always context dependent", I'd say yes. But I suspect from what you have wirtten that you wodul say "no".

Instead you wrote "Is truth always context independent".
Wayfarer April 24, 2023 at 23:03 #802813
Reply to invicta I’ll come back to this thread later but meanwhile an article from my reading list which you will find relevant

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/the-metaphysical-muddle-of-lawrence-krauss-why-science-cant-get-/10100010
Banno April 24, 2023 at 23:03 #802814
Quoting invicta
So what ? Truth is not constant... But it’s also constant.


So what are we to make of this self-contradiction?

My simple answer is that truth remains constant, but that what is true can vary by context; and that your analysis did not pick up on this distinction.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 23:04 #802815
Reply to Banno

Then you agree with everything that I’ve said and the duplicitous nature of truth so far discussed that it it always stays the same for some statements (truths, a la all triangles have three sides) and that it changes for in other statements (colour of sky)
Banno April 24, 2023 at 23:08 #802817
Reply to Wayfarer

That reality is intelligible is the presupposition of all scientific endeavours


Quite the opposite. That reality is ineligible is the conclusion of the scientific process.

Science works. Therefore the universe is intelligible.
Wayfarer April 24, 2023 at 23:10 #802819
Quoting Banno
Therefore the universe is intelligible.


Other way around Banno - it’s the fact that the world is at least in part intelligible that science can get a foothold. Intelligibility is a presupposition.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 23:13 #802820
Quoting invicta
Then you agree with everything that I’ve said and the duplicitous nature of truth so far discussed that it it always stays the same for some statements (truths, a la all triangles have three sides) and that it changes for in other statements (colour of sky)


No.

Truth is not duplicitous. It is simple. "P" is true iff P. That's all there is to it. The "...is true" in "It is true that triangles have three sides" and "it is true that the sky is blue" are the very same. What changes is the other bit of each sentence.

And, seperate point, there is an historical division between sentences that are considered to always be true, and sentences that change their truth value according to circumstance. In his pivotal essay "Two dogmas of empiricism" Quine showed that this doesn't seem to work.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 23:16 #802822
Reply to Wayfarer If what you suggest were true, then one could do science in a world with no order by supposing that there was some order. But one could not.

Instead, it's that we can tell stories about how things are that leads us to conclude that the world is ordered.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 23:19 #802823
Quoting Banno
It is simple. "P" is true iff P. That's all there is to it. The "...is true" in "It is true that triangles have three sides" and "it is true that the sky is blue" are the very same.


They’re very different statements whose value however remains true of the former (a priori) and changes for the latter (empirical), as Quine rightfully investigated, although I was not aware of it until you brought it to light.
Wayfarer April 24, 2023 at 23:21 #802824
Reply to Banno All scientific work presupposes an order.
Banno April 24, 2023 at 23:36 #802826
Reply to Wayfarer No. Scientific work show that the world is ordered.

Your cited article does odd things with italics, but so far as I can tell the flow is that Krause wrote his book because he is scared of god. I wouldn't count Krause's musings as science. But what he does show, and what is avoided in the essay you cite, is that god is not necessary to explain the universe.

I might be wrong, there might be an actual argument in there. But I don't see it. So if there is, set it out.

Banno April 24, 2023 at 23:48 #802827
Reply to invicta

Strictly, Quine's target is the analytic/synthetic distinction. This seems to be what you are so vaguely addressing. His main argument is roughly that there is no account of analyticity that is not circular. There are more problems with the distinction.

The conclusion is something like that treating supposed analytic statements as foundational is fraught with problems, and that some form of holism is needed.
invicta April 24, 2023 at 23:55 #802828
Reply to Banno

Krause is confused on the issue of “nothing” that is all as he defines it as empty space i.e. dimensional which is not the same as nothingness (lack of all dimensions, space and time) from which no particle can pop into existence virtual or not.

His whole book revolves round this whole false premise.
Banno April 25, 2023 at 00:00 #802829
Reply to invicta Maybe. My only point is that rejecting Krauss does not mean there must be a god.

With the corollary that Reply to Wayfarer sometimes overreaches what can be concluded from what we know.
Tom Storm April 25, 2023 at 00:28 #802831
Quoting Banno
My only point is that rejecting Krauss does not mean there must be a god.


Indeed. Many atheists (Massimo Pigliacci, Susan Haack, for two) bemoan Krauss' lack of philosophical knowledge and his crude reasoning.


Wayfarer April 25, 2023 at 01:15 #802835
The salient points in the article and those which are particularly salient are the anxiety over contingency and the breakdown of what Lonergan means by rational grasp of the intelligible order.

The point which I think the OP wishes to convey is the distinction between necessary and contingent truths.
Sam26 April 25, 2023 at 01:30 #802840
Reply to invicta Truth is a property of propositions, and given that propositions, as used between people, are always used in a context, then truth is context dependent. I don't think you can separate truth from a context. Facts, on the other hand, are quite a different story, facts can stand alone, even without language.
Banno April 25, 2023 at 01:35 #802844
Quoting Wayfarer
The point which I think the OP wishes to convey is the distinction between necessary and contingent truths.

Or is it that between analytic and synthetic statements - which is not quite the same thing?

Reply to Sam26 Yep.
Wayfarer April 25, 2023 at 01:39 #802846
Reply to Banno I think that is a summary view developed over a long period of time which needs to be re-analysed (which I will come back to later.)
Metaphysician Undercover April 25, 2023 at 01:48 #802851
Quoting invicta
If two or more parties agree by experience that it is currently hot then that is truth.

How do you get conspiracy out of that?


What if what these two agree to, is contrary to what everyone else is claiming? For example, if two parties conclude by their own experience that the earth is flat, or that the sun revolves around the earth, while most other people are telling them otherwise, does that make it true? Sounds like the beginnings of a conspiracy theory to me, because then those two would have to explain why everyone else is conspiring against them.
Wayfarer April 25, 2023 at 06:39 #802914
Quoting invicta
The sky is blue only applies during daytime therefore in this scenario truth is context dependent.

1+1 = 2 is true in all circumstances because it’s a calculation performed on numerical values.

In this aspect we get some truths being changeable and some being constant.


What I think you've sensed is about the distinction between contingent and necessary facts. In philosophy, this is explained in terms of the difference between a priori and a posteriori facts - meaning things that can be known by reason along (like arithmetic facts) as distinct from things were are dependent on circumstances (like the colour of the daytime sky).

There is an enormous history of discussion of those distinctions, but a pivotal moment was David Hume's distinction of the two kinds. The textbook examples that Hume gave are such statements as 'all bachelors are unmarried', which is true by virtue of definition, that bachelors are unmarried men. An example of an a posteriori fact was that 'all swans are white', which was certainly true in Hume's time as no Europeans had yet set foot in Western Australia, where there are black swans. Hume went on to cast doubt on the logical status of the latter kind of facts, those being dependent on experience and custom, thereby undermining the status of causal relations which until then had always been assumed to be grounded in logic. This was a fork in the road for Western philosophy.

However this was later addressed in Kant's famous 'answer to Hume'. Very briefly (and literally thousands of volumes have been written about it) according to Kant, causality is not an empirical concept at all - that is, it is not derived from experience - but a necessary condition of experience. It is one of the categories of the understanding by which we make sense of experience. In other words, we do not derive our knowledge of causality from experience; rather, we bring our concept of causality to experience, which allows us to understand and interpret experience.

I interpret @Banno as coming from the 'plain language' school of analytical philosophy, which is not about any kind of abstract knowledge of truth, but only about what can meaningfully be said. This uses the famous last words of Wittgenstein's Tractatus ('That of which we cannot speak...') as a kind of firewall against many kinds of previously-contested metaphysical questions. That kind of 'deflationary' approach is typical of much of 20th century philosophy, particularly in the English-speaking world.

But I think there's a deeper, underlying issue. I think in traditional (pre-modern) culture, there was a larger conceptual place for the 'unconditioned' or 'non-contingent' category of truths, which over the transition to modernity has gradually been eroded away. I think it's because the idea of the unconditioned is associated with the God idea which is of course anathema (pardon the irony) to secular culture. That's why I mentioned the review of Lawrence Krauss. The writer's point about the 'anxiety over contingency' draws out the issue of the limits of empiricism and the attempt to avoid the implications of that.

In fact Krauss has been criticized by a number of other reviewers for his failure to grasp the limits of empiricism, or put another way, his attempt to use empirical science to make metaphysical statements (e.g. see David Albert's review in the NY Times which provoked a notorious hissy fit from Krauss.) But the article I linked to, gives a much fuller account of the meaning of 'intelligibility', as distinct from what it calls Krauss' 'animal extroversion' (which basically means taking naturalism as a metaphysic. Notice the reference to Bernard Lonergan a Canadian Catholic philosopher who is considered a representative modern exponent of metaphysics.)

Much more could be said, but that at least points in the direction I think the OP is trying to head.

Janus April 25, 2023 at 06:49 #802918
Quoting Banno
Hence it is sentences that are "context driven"; not truth.


Quoting Banno
Is truth always context dependent? Yes, because it is statements that are true, and stements are context-dependent.


Are you drawing a distinction between being context driven and being context dependent, or are you simply contradicting yourself?

I would agree with your second sentence that both statements and their truth or falsity are context dependent.
Tom Storm April 25, 2023 at 08:20 #802930
Quoting Wayfarer
However this was later addressed in Kant's famous 'answer to Hume'. Very briefly (and literally thousands of volumes have been written about it) according to Kant, causality is not an empirical concept at all - that is, it is not derived from experience - but a necessary condition of experience. It is one of the categories of the understanding by which we make sense of experience. In other words, we do not derive our knowledge of causality from experience; rather, we bring our concept of causality to experience, which allows us to understand and interpret experience.


This is a tantalizing notion and you can't help wondering, if we add (as Kant does) space and time to our cognitive apparatus, what is it we are 'really' able to apprehend about the the world via empiricism? Are the regularities we seem to observe part of the universe or a part of us? How are we to understand the capacity to make predictions work in such a context?
Wayfarer April 25, 2023 at 08:27 #802931
Reply to Tom Storm Predictions work perfectly well. Recall that Kant’s theory of nebular formation (slightly modified by LaPlace) is still considered current science and that Kant used to lecture on scientific subjects. Even though we may only ever know things as they appear to us, those appearances are consistent across a vast range of empirical facts. But empirical observation doesn’t amount to metaphysical insight. That’s the crucial distinction. (Beware of taking the thread into Kant, however, it’s almost as notorious a derailer of threads as interpretations of quantum mechanics.)
Tom Storm April 25, 2023 at 08:30 #802933
Quoting Wayfarer
But empirical observation doesn’t amount to metaphysical insight. That’s the crucial distinction.


The hard part is working out what counts as metaphysical insight if we are locked in to a world of appearances and cognitive limitations.
Wayfarer April 25, 2023 at 08:34 #802934
Reply to Tom Storm Yes. And having discarded everything that used to be understood as metaphysics on account of its association with religion, then it verges on the impossible.
Tom Storm April 25, 2023 at 08:38 #802935
Reply to Wayfarer In my experience religions are not all that friendly towards metaphysics either.
Wayfarer April 25, 2023 at 08:47 #802936
Reply to Tom Storm Of course, but again, the point that I'm making is that there's an association of metaphysics with a kind of religious attitude - you see that even in neoplatonism, which at the time it was active was antagonistic to Christianity. Go back to the question- what is the unconditioned? Where in philosophical discourse do you encounter discussion of that? There's some discussion of it in German idealism but I contend that there is nothing which corresponds to it in most modern English-speaking philosophy.
Wayfarer April 25, 2023 at 08:50 #802937
Reply to Tom Storm [quote=ChatGPT]
Q: Where would you look in modern English-language philosophy for discussion of the concept of 'the unconditioned'?

A: In modern English-language philosophy, you might look for discussions of the concept of 'the unconditioned' in the areas of metaphysics, epistemology, and philosophy of religion. Some specific philosophers and works that address this concept include:

Immanuel Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason": In this work, Kant discusses the idea of the unconditioned in his critique of rationalism, arguing that human reason cannot reach knowledge of the unconditioned because it is beyond the realm of possible experience.

Martin Heidegger's "Being and Time": Heidegger explores the concept of the unconditioned through his analysis of human existence and the structures of being that underlie it. He argues that the unconditioned is the "groundless ground" of all that exists, and that it can be accessed through a process of "authentic" self-discovery.

Alvin Plantinga's "Warranted Christian Belief": In this work, Plantinga defends the rationality of belief in God by arguing that the concept of the unconditioned is essential to any adequate account of human knowledge and that belief in God provides a coherent explanation for the existence of the unconditioned.

David Lewis's "On the Plurality of Worlds": Lewis explores the concept of the unconditioned through his analysis of possible worlds and the idea of a "compossible" set of properties that can coexist without being dependent on each other.

Graham Harman's "Object-Oriented Ontology": Harman argues that the unconditioned can be accessed through a process of "withdrawal" in which objects reveal their hidden, inaccessible aspects.[/quote]

I would have nominated the first three, the second two I have heard of, but would not have thought of them.
Tom Storm April 25, 2023 at 08:58 #802938
Reply to Wayfarer I know a number of Catholic mystics and they would certainly agree with Plantigna ('not bad for a Protestant') on this.

You can add the Sufi tradition here too, I think - the notion Wahdat-ul-Wujood (the Unity of Being) all that that exists is held within god and all truth and the universe arises out of god (it's a kind of ground of being idea) but I am not an expert.
Michael April 25, 2023 at 09:18 #802940
Quoting invicta
You claim that there is only one sort of truth, well I claim that there are two. Constant truth which never changes night or day and the variable type that changes the colour of the sky night or day.


Are you just saying that there are some sentences that are always true and some sentences that aren't?
invicta April 25, 2023 at 09:20 #802941
Reply to Michael

I’m saying that there are two different sentences that can refer to truth. The difference between such sentences is that in one the truth value of it can change such as the sky is blue. In others it remains constant and never changes such as all triangles have 3 sides.

So yes!

Michael April 25, 2023 at 09:21 #802942
Quoting invicta
The difference between such sentences is that in one the truth value of it can change such as the sky is blue. In others it remains constant and never changes such as all triangles have 3 sides.


Isn't that exactly what I said? Some sentences are always true and some aren't.
invicta April 25, 2023 at 09:30 #802943
Reply to Michael

Yes I think I repeated myself.

It’s worth noting Banno’s view point that truth is one, (my objection is that yes it is one, but the sky changes colour so the value of truth no longer holds true) but that statements making truth claims are divided into two categories as explained above.
Wayfarer April 25, 2023 at 09:31 #802944
Reply to Tom Storm all water under the bridge, apparently.
Michael April 25, 2023 at 09:32 #802945
Quoting invicta
The difference between such sentences is that in one the truth value of it can change such as the sky is blue. In others it remains constant and never changes such as all triangles have 3 sides.


Is there a difference between these two sentences?

1. A triangle is a 3-sided polygon
2. "Triangle" means "3-sided polygon"
invicta April 25, 2023 at 09:34 #802946
Leaving the linguistics out of this for a second a referring to truth visually we can witness the color of the sky gradually change, such is the natural phenomenon presented to our visual field that this change constitutes a change in value (color) hence truth (reality)

@Michael they appear to be the same sentence arranged differently?
Judaka April 25, 2023 at 09:37 #802947
Reply to invicta
"The truth is true and that's the truth", that's a good argument, I hadn't thought of that, thanks for enlightening me.
Michael April 25, 2023 at 09:40 #802948
Reply to invicta Then what about a sentence such as "Joe Biden was elected the 46th President of the United States"?
invicta April 25, 2023 at 09:44 #802950
Reply to Michael

Just a standard posteriori statement. Factual but would need verification. It’s a constant truth however as he will always be the 46th no matter who or what comes after himself.

Michael April 25, 2023 at 09:48 #802951
Reply to invicta So we have a number of different sentences:

1. A triangle is a 3-sided polygon
2. "Triangle" means "3-sided polygon"
3. Joe Biden was elected the 46th President of the United States
4. It is raining

Some make a distinction between a priori truths (1), and a posteriori truths (2, 3, 4), and others make a distinction between constant truths (1, 3) and non-constant truths (2, 4).

Is there some significance to these distinctions?

What if I distinguish between truths about the weather and truths about things that aren't the weather?
invicta April 25, 2023 at 09:52 #802952
Reply to Michael

I wished to draw distinction and better understand the objections to the division of sentences in reference to claims that always hold true and claims that only hold true in some situations.

For lack of terminology it could be as simple as the a priori Vs posteriori division but it is not, as posteriori refers to truths verifiable and knowable via experience it does not delve into the variability of truth that some sentences reflect such as the sky is blue.
Banno April 25, 2023 at 22:15 #803052
So this thread is about @invicta discovering analyticity.

Next step is to deal with Quine. Then Chomsky. Then Davidson.
invicta April 25, 2023 at 22:35 #803057
Reply to Banno

What I struggle with in terms of modern philosophy is when it get’s technical and employs technical terms such as the ones you’ve mentioned, analytic, synthetic etc. It did start with Kant in his definition and distinction between such statements namely the priori posteriori split which become split further.

Yet the question in my mind always relates to truth and truth only and these complications that came afterwards with Kant and Hegel (synthetic) although a logical or even necessary step in the evolution of philosophy was a sideways development rather than upwards progression of the concept of truth.

Not a distraction either as the distinction is important however no such terminology was employed by the Greeks.

In terms of importance to overall philosophical thought I’d say it’s minor.
Banno April 25, 2023 at 22:58 #803063
Yes, Reply to invicta, philosophy is quite difficult, isn't it.

Kant went to all the trouble to develop these terms, only for others to show that they don't much work.

Most folk hereabouts seem to stop at Kant, and apart from the fashionable Nazi, not bother with stuff from last century, let alone new stuff.

Can I commend Two Dogmas of Empiricism to you.

Analyticity is a central topic, in that one's approach towards it has import for one's approach to logic, and hence to what it means to do philosophy well.

jorndoe April 25, 2023 at 23:09 #803067
@invicta, not sure if this is what you had in mind or otherwise helps any...

The truth values of indexical propositions are context dependent. [sup]SEP, W, IEP[/sup]
For example, uttering "I am the CEO of IBM" will be right for one person (or zero), false for others.
Other propositions work differently.

Here true/false are taken to be properties of propositions.

Antony Nickles April 30, 2023 at 01:12 #804007
Quoting invicta
If truth is not an axiom that can be applied universally then are such truth statements as the first one in this OP useless?


You are assuming a few things, though understandably. Your measure of “useful” is based on the success science has had, which, as you say, is due to the certainty, predictability, consistency, etc. of its method (that it does not matter who does the scientific method).

Philosophy (that not peeled off historically as science) does not have this luxury of mathematical certainty, but judging whether its truths are “useful” is the desire to make philosophy be science, to require certainty, to avoid our part in our human truths. That we accept them and stand behind them, not in the sense of an opinion, but such, for example, that philosophy is not meant to explain, but to describe what you then might see for yourself, and in reaching to see and think in a way more than just certain knowledge, we change and become a better version of ourselves.

So are philosophical truths dependent on context? You won’t get far outside of the non-contextual abstract universalized pre-determined fixation philosophy has without considering how context plays a part in how we have truth-value despite not being analogous to mathematical criteria.