What is neoliberalism?

Jamal April 28, 2023 at 14:26 7125 views 66 comments
I was writing another OP (watch this space) and I found myself writing a definition of neoliberalism. That made the post too big so I decided to offload it to another discussion, since it's quite interesting in itself anyway.

When I talk about neoliberalism, sometimes I mean the ideology of contemporary capitalism, and sometimes I mean the economic form itself. I don’t think conflating the two is much of a problem. Neoliberalism is a development of capitalism and a justificatory intellectual movement in support of that development. In both senses, it is a partial revival of nineteenth-century free market liberalism, a reaction to the compromised capitalism of the middle decades of the twentieth century, when Keynesianism was popular. Neoliberals support globalization, deregulation and privatization, believing that the role of the private sector ought to be expanded beyond the limits traditionally adhered to in the decades following the Great Depression and the Second World War.

Incidentally, neoliberals are different from libertarians (and maybe classical liberals too) in that they tend not to be free market fundamentalists, believing as they do in a strong interventionist state in the service of markets. I think this is what makes it the mainstream ideology of capitalism today.

On top of that, sometimes I use the term to indicate certain sociological or purely economic aspects of contemporary capitalist society: precarity, social atomization, consumer culture, and financialization. Other terms that you often see are “postmodern capitalism” or "late capitalism".

I guess I may as well define capitalism too:

A capitalist society is one in which most useful things are commodities sold in markets by or on behalf of those who privately own the technology, raw materials, buildings, money, land, and the best part of each worker's day, required to produce them. There are two crucial things about these economic activities that together allow us to refer to a society as capitalist: (1) they are dominant, i.e., they reach into most areas of society and thus structure our ways of life; and (2) they result in or maintain social stratification, where we have a class of owners and executives on one side, and a class of relatively propertyless people who must sell their labour power on the other (though obviously the line between them is blurry).

What have I missed? Am I using "neoliberalism" too loosely? Is it important to carefully distinguish between the political philosophy of neoliberalism (see the SEP), the economic facts, and the sociological and cultural aspects?

And if you want to criticize my definition of capitalism, go ahead if you must.

Comments (66)

javi2541997 April 28, 2023 at 14:52 #803556
Reply to Jamal Good OP and definitions.

Quoting Jamal
What have I missed?


If you don't mind, I would like to include in your characteristics of neoliberalism, taxation. I think this is another important fact of "late capitalism" or nostalgic 1980's and 1990's capitalists.
According to neoliberals, the interventionism of State through taxation should be the less possible. They stand for the fact that reducing income or firm's taxes will create more employment and then the economy will progress. So, the unemployment ratio depends on enterprises, not the state itself. If the firms assume a lot of tax pressure, it will be difficult to make money.

Neoliberals are against taxation (or at least big proportions of) because they see them as confiscation. The current governor of Madrid is a big neoliberal and she has made what a good neoliberal will always do: reducing the taxes and spending cuts. She even once said: "Erasing the wealth tax is one the best decisions made. There are not social classes here in Madrid, and that tax is irrelevant"

Only a good neoliberal would refuse the existence of social classes in a big city like Madrid.

frank April 28, 2023 at 15:08 #803561
Quoting Jamal
When I talk about neoliberalism, sometimes I mean the ideology of contemporary capitalism, and sometimes I mean the economic form itself. I don’t think conflating the two is much of a problem. Neoliberalism is a development of capitalism and a justificatory intellectual movement in support of that development. In both senses, it is a partial revival of nineteenth-century free market liberalism, a reaction to the compromised capitalism of the middle decades of the twentieth century, when Keynesianism was popular. Neoliberals support globalization, deregulation and privatization, believing that the role of the private sector ought to be expanded beyond the limits traditionally adhered to in the decades following the Great Depression and the Second World War.


This is cool, but the word is used differently in Europe vs the US. For Americans, the word is more controversial, sometimes declared meaningless, used in a derogatory fashion, or taken up as a badge of honor in spite of its negative connotations.

Reagan was a fan of Hayek and was impressed by the idea that collectivism is a path to slavery. This attitude was inextricable from his hostility to the USSR, which was viewed as an arch enemy seeking to destroy the Good. Hayek said that in principle, he believed that dictatorship was warranted in order to turn countries away from collectivism. This attitude of being willing to subvert democracy in order to save freedom is not just a typical development of capitalism. As you pointed out, it's a reaction to the far reaching progress made by leftists throughout the world as a result of the Great Depression.

The emphasis on globalization has been one of the most effective neoliberal strategies for undermining the power of labor. That gives a sense of ongoing internal conflict represented by the word (for Americans, anyway). The word might have a more benign meaning elsewhere.
Jamal April 28, 2023 at 15:16 #803568
Reply to javi2541997 Interesting, thanks. On the other hand there’s a difference between neoliberals, who want to reduce taxes, and libertarians, who might be against tax in principle.
Jamal April 28, 2023 at 15:20 #803572
Reply to frank Interesting post, but none of it goes against neoliberalism as understood in Europe, as you imply. I don’t think there’s much of a difference between US and non-US uses of the term. It has globalized itself successfully.
javi2541997 April 28, 2023 at 15:22 #803574
Quoting Jamal
On the other hand there’s a difference between neoliberals, who want to reduce taxes, and libertarians, who might be against tax in principle.


True! This is another interesting point in the debate
frank April 28, 2023 at 15:29 #803578
Quoting Jamal
Interesting post, but none of it goes against neoliberalism as understood in Europe, as you imply. I don’t think there’s much of a difference between US and non-US uses of the term. It has globalized itself successfully.


Maybe the difference is in who uses the term? In the US, if it's used at all, it's usually by leftists. I thought the use was more mainstream in Europe.
Jamal April 28, 2023 at 15:37 #803582
Reply to frank I think it’s the same here. The difference is more likely between popular and academic uses.
frank April 28, 2023 at 16:43 #803592
Quoting Jamal
I think it’s the same here. The difference is more likely between popular and academic uses.


You're straight up not believing there's a difference. I don't know. That's just what the sources I read said. I'll see if I can dig one up if you want it.
Jamal April 28, 2023 at 16:46 #803593
Reply to frank I'm happy to be persuaded, just don't see it so far.
frank April 28, 2023 at 17:05 #803599
Reply to Jamal
"At some point during Bryan Singer’s genre-redefining 1995 thriller, The Usual Suspects, the elusive villain Keyser Söze shares some of his wisdom with the audience: “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn’t exist.” Something similar might be said about neoliberalism even if attributing infernal implications to it might seem a little far-fetched.

"The term is as ambiguous as it is contested. While some consider it to be synonymous with the unleashed forces of turbo-capitalism (Bourdieu 1998; Chomsky 1999), others think of it as a moderate version of classical liberalism’s blunt imperative of laissez-faire. And while some note a decade-long march of victory of neoliberal policy regimes worldwide (see Harvey 2005), others disparage it as a figment of its critics’ fevered imagination that does not even exist—let alone rule the world—and the term ought to be sent into semantic retirement. The latter perspective contends that neoliberalism is not only vacuous but has also become so politically charged that it serves as little more than a polemical tool for theoretical and political smear campaigns waged with denunciatory intentions. And to be sure, this is correct insofar as there are hardly any self-proclaimed neoliberals to be found.

"Since it was (re)introduced to academic and political discourse in the early 1990s, only its critics have used the term (see Boas and Gans-Morse 2009). At present there is a growing reluctance even on their side to make use of it because it disqualifies any speaker as a potential ideologue with anticapitalist biases. If you call someone neoliberal, it suggests that you are unwilling to engage in reasoned argument and would rather resort to polemical name-calling. So even if neoliberalism ruled the world, it would be a neoliberalism without any neoliberals, and even its academic critics dare not speak its name—a truly devilish trick. I first show that neoliberalism is far more than a chimera made up by its critics. Neoliberal thought developed as a response to the crisis of liberalism in the 1930s, and there is a common denominator to this body of thought, albeit a thin one. It is not a common set of doctrines but what I call the neoliberal problematic, which concerns the preconditions of functioning markets. This problematic characterizes the work of a number of thinkers who can be referred to as neoliberals in the proper sense of the term, such as the German ordoliberals Walter Eucken, Wilhelm Röpke, and Alexander Rüstow, but also Friedrich August Hayek, Milton Friedman, and James Buchanan.1 They provide me with the reservoir of ideas that I scrutinize in part 1, the central part of the book."

The Political Theory of Neoliberalism by Biebricher
Jamal April 28, 2023 at 17:10 #803602
Reply to frank Cool, but it doesn’t show that there’s a difference between American and European uses, which is all that I objected about in your first post.
frank April 28, 2023 at 17:13 #803603
Quoting Jamal
Cool, but it doesn’t show that there’s a difference between American and European uses, which is all that I objected about in your first post.


Is it common for European academics to claim that the word is meaningless? If so, it's the same.
Jamal April 28, 2023 at 17:15 #803604
Reply to frank I have no idea, but it wouldn’t surprise me, because the word is used sometimes as a loose term of abuse—a mere “polemical tool”—everywhere as far as I can tell.
frank April 28, 2023 at 17:21 #803606
Quoting Jamal
I have no idea, but it wouldn’t surprise me, because the word is used sometimes as a loose term of abuse—a mere “polemical tool”—everywhere as far as I can tell.


Oh. I guess it does mean the same thing, then.
NOS4A2 April 28, 2023 at 17:23 #803607
As far as I know hardly anyone uses the phrase to describe their own politics or ideology, which is telling, so often it is little more than a term of opprobrium.

To me the theory of neoliberalism’s global ascendancy is overblown. I have trouble believing Reaganomics and Thatcherism extended beyond Reagan and Thatcher. The author of the so-called "Washington Consensus", for example, which is often panned as a neoliberal manifesto, consciously excluded neoliberal ideology like capital account liberalization, monetarism, supply-side economics, or a minimal state.

The background of neoliberalism's supposed rise, I think, is important. It comes at a time when we were witnessing the spectacular collapse of socialist countries on the world stage, the spectacular failure of Keynesian economics, while Thatcher and Reagan were seemingly pulling their countries out of the ruins of statist ideology.

This presented a problem for disaffected socialists after the collapse of the Soviet Union, both ideologically and politically. They could no longer deny that central planning was a failure, and that their popularity was waning. This led critics of the "neoliberalism" of Reagan and Thatcher, and newly disaffected socialists and social democrats like Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, and Gerd Schröder, to re-brand as free market progressives. They tried to push it as a global movement. It's odd; though they were explicitly critical of the supply-side economics of Reagan and Thatcher, they are somehow considered in the same pantheon as Reagan and Thatcher, with neoliberalism flowing through them.

Personally, I take a different approach. I would call their agenda and the period since Thatcher and Reagan (and perhaps Bush Sr.) "neosocialism", because it better represents the spirit of its architects and reflects their turn away from the Old Left socialism into what Bill Clinton called the New Democrats, or what Blair called New Labour. This political triangulation flows right into "compassionate conservatism" of Bush Jr. and David Cameron. Tony Blair stood in front of the International Socialist Congress in ‘97 and pleaded for a "modernized social democracy", and this modernized social democracy prevails.
Jamal April 28, 2023 at 17:24 #803608
Reply to frank That's probably why I wanted to define it: I found myself using it a lot and it occurred to me that I might not know what I was saying.
frank April 28, 2023 at 17:42 #803620
Quoting Jamal
That's probably why I wanted to define it: I found myself using it a lot and it occurred to me that I might not know what I was saying.


I think you had it right, except you can favor capitalism without being a neoliberal. You could favor embedded liberalism, for instance.

I think it's the 20th Century war against leftism that defines it.
Jamal April 28, 2023 at 17:44 #803622
Reply to frank We seem to be in agreement. :scream:
Jamal April 28, 2023 at 17:45 #803624
Reply to NOS4A2 Fascinating as always NOS. I may say more tomorrow.
NOS4A2 April 28, 2023 at 17:48 #803626
Reply to Jamal

Of course, I would never actually use the phrase “Neosocialism” or “neoliberalism”, unless it was a term of abuse.

Philosophically, Michel Foucault’s idea of Biopolitics and “Left Governmentality” are worth checking out. Some say he was flirting with neoliberalism in those lectures.
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 17:49 #803627
Well, that's what I mean by neoliberalism, anyways.

LIke any good leftist I blame Nixon. ;) Not really, Carter did it too. And I agree that it's in reaction to Keynesian economics. My reading is always eclectic so I might have missed some event prior in USian history, but the Lockheed bailouts:

[quote=wikipedia]
Drowning in debt, in 1971 Lockheed (then the largest US defense contractor) asked the US government for a loan guarantee, to avoid insolvency. Lockheed argued that a government bailout was necessary due to the company's value for U.S. national security.[22] On May 13, 1971, the Richard Nixon administration sent a bill titled "The Emergency Loan Guarantee Act" to Congress requesting a $250 million loan guarantee for Lockheed and its L-1011 Tristar airbus program.[23]
[/quote]

really do look similar to many of what I'd term neoliberal interventions on behalf of the market. I know what you mean there, which is what really distinguishes neoliberalism from classical liberalism and the limited state types and is a reason to call it something different.
Jamal April 28, 2023 at 18:10 #803633
Quoting Moliere
really do look similar to many of what I'd term neoliberal interventions on behalf of the market. I know what you mean there, which is what really distinguishes neoliberalism from classical liberalism and the limited state types and is a reason to call it something different.


Yep, exactly what I was getting at.
frank April 28, 2023 at 18:13 #803635
Quoting Moliere
really do look similar to many of what I'd term neoliberal interventions on behalf of the market.


Are you talking about entities deemed to big to fail?
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 18:41 #803644
Reply to frank Yeah, though I want to clarify I mean historical events rather than from the nature of an entity so this is a perspective drawing from historical knowledge (or, at least, stuff I read) -- but that's definitely a theme of these historical events. If such and such fails then the net suffering is greater than if such and such does not fail is one form of market intervention I'd count. I'm not sure all of what I'd count. The relationship of unions to capital is another perspective I'd highlight.

One thing I wonder about including are international actions. I am uncertain that neoliberalism is international in the same way that, say, capitalism is international: Whereas capital has a way of connecting nations together into a higher order system, I'm not sure neoliberalism is quite like that -- it seems more like an ideology and its enactment, and less like a transnational system.

This being relevant because I'm not sure if one should include the various interventions in Latin and South America on the part of the US as an example, or if that's just the nature of the beast at the international level and neoliberalism is something which can only take place within a capitalist economy.
frank April 28, 2023 at 19:03 #803648
Quoting Moliere
Yeah, though I want to clarify I mean historical events rather than from the nature of an entity so this is a perspective drawing from historical knowledge (or, at least, stuff I read) -- but that's definitely a theme of these historical events. If such and such fails then the net suffering is greater than if such and such does not fail is one form of market intervention I'd count.


But in general, government assistance to private entities is not in line with neoliberal ideas. That happened in 2009, but there was absolutely no political theory in play wrt the bail outs. That was done to keep the economy from crashing due to a credit freeze.

The fact that the financial sector of NYC is so important to the US economy that they have to be bailed out is the result of Neoliberalism. The bail out itself was just survival mode.

Quoting Moliere
am uncertain that neoliberalism is international in the same way that, say, capitalism is international:


Neoliberalism is more global than national. That enhances the freedom of a capitalist from local concerns like taxation, unionization, etc.

Quoting Moliere
This being relevant because I'm not sure if one should include the various interventions in Latin and South America on the part of the US as an example, or if that's just the nature of the beast at the international level and neoliberalism is something which can only take place within a capitalist economy.


Chile was the first test case for the imposition of neoliberal ideas. Neoliberalism will tend to make an economy run hot, so when this happened to Chile, this was touted as success.

You should check out Harvey's book about it. I stayed outraged for about a week straight after I read it. Ahrrr!

Moliere April 28, 2023 at 19:28 #803654
Quoting frank
But in general, government assistance to private entities is not in line with neoliberal ideas. .


But it happens a lot. 2009 was not unique. And it seems to be needed when those ideas are implemented.

Quoting frank
Chile was the first test case for the imposition of neoliberal ideas. Neoliberalism will tend to make an economy run hot, so when this happened to Chile, this was touted as success.


So that'd be a reason to include it. But was the USian government assistance of Pinochet a result of neoliberalism? Or was it the result of one nation doing what nations do -- enforcing claims on resources, while picking on an ideological enemy? Or was that the result of Henry Kissinger just being himself?

In making neoliberalism more clear it seems like it's more of a prevailing ideology? So that'd indicate that these sorts of interventions are not the result of neoliberalism -- as a way of clarifying when it's appropriate to attribute something to neoliberalism. Neoliberalism came as an ideology which was later enforced by the government.

Quoting frank
You should check out Harvey's book about it. I stayed outraged for about a week straight after I read it. Ahrrr!


Yeah that's definitely the sort of thing I like to read. :D I should.
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 19:42 #803656
Maybe what's needed is a good distinction between Keynesian state intervention and neoliberal state intervention to make the case... I mean from my perspective there's no such thing as a market without state intervention. Markets are instantiated by states. So the notion of governments not assisting private entities is, from the standpoint of political economy, simply not possible. They make the very conditions of markets by enforcing legal claims of property.

But something is different from the times of Keynes. I agree the term is somewhat ambiguous, but there's a real phenomena there too.
frank April 28, 2023 at 19:58 #803658
Quoting Moliere
But it happens a lot. 2009 was not unique. And it seems to be needed when those ideas are implemented.


I guess I don't know what you're referring to then.

Quoting Moliere
Neoliberalism came as an ideology which was later enforced by the government.


Correct.
invicta April 28, 2023 at 19:59 #803659
The definition of it leaves clear in my mind for the need of avoiding monopolistic tendencies of pretty much every corporation who going unchecked would leave the consumer a lack of choice and higher prices which could otherwise be provided by competitors.

We have well demonstrated examples of such corporations such as Amazon or Microsoft. The latter getting leveraged out by governments such as the UK who found their acquisition of activision blizzard uncompetitive (recently) and rightly so. Their end goal is of course total monopoly which they’ve enjoyed restricting consumer choice.

These large entities have to be kept in check, the natural course is of course to let them acquire until the consumer realises they’re essentially screwed for choice and alternative and most importantly price.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65407005

Their bitching is understandable, they want to own every aspect of the market, developers of videogames etc
Mikie April 28, 2023 at 20:09 #803660
Quoting Jamal
Neoliberals support globalization, deregulation and privatization, believing that the role of the private sector ought to be expanded beyond the limits traditionally adhered to in the decades following the Great Depression and the Second World War.


Exactly. When I talk of neoliberalism, I’m referring to the policies enacted since the late 70s. It’s a label for those policy changes, hence the neoliberal “era.”

So yeah: globalization, deregulation, privatization, tax cuts, destruction of unions, etc. We could go through the list: Carter deregulating the railroads and trucking, Reagan and the airtraffic controllers, SEC rule changes on buybacks in ‘82, fair doctrines act repeal, Clinton and NAFTA, telecommunications act, etc etc.

That’s neoliberalism to me. Often the justification for it all was flimsy and varied — usually something about free markets, trickle down economics, Friedman doctrine, capital flight, the Laffer curve, and other nonsense — but that’s somewhere different, the “justificatory” aspect you mentioned.

Incidentally, Naomi Oreskes has just released an interesting book about this latter part which is worth reading. It’s called The Big Myth: How American Business Taught Us to Loathe Government and Love the Free Market.

Mikie April 28, 2023 at 20:10 #803661
Quoting Moliere
there's no such thing as a market without state intervention. Markets are instantiated by states.


Yes indeed. Worth emphasizing again and again.
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 20:20 #803662
Reply to Mikie Yup. Unfortunately so. It should be an obvious truism.
NOS4A2 April 28, 2023 at 20:22 #803663
Reply to Moliere

I mean from my perspective there's no such thing as a market without state intervention. Markets are instantiated by states.


Like the grey or black market? They arise not because of state intervention, but in spite of it. Markets are considered spontaneous just as much as they are considered planned.
invicta April 28, 2023 at 20:25 #803664
Reply to Moliere

Without state intervention the stateless nature of corporations means the state gets no revenue through taxation of such entities as they could easily offshore to some tiny island with a population of 10 people whilst profiiteering of a country whose population is 500 million.
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 20:25 #803665
Reply to NOS4A2 Yup, like them too. They trade in money, after all -- legal tender, and all that.
frank April 28, 2023 at 20:27 #803666
Quoting NOS4A2
Like the grey or black market? They arise not because of state intervention, but in spite of it. Markets are considered spontaneous just as much as they are considered planned.


Correct. Free markets first appeared toward the end of the Bronze Age, probably as a result of the declining power of states.

Europe's rise from the Dark Ages started with free markets that ministered to trade with the Middle East. Powerful European states came later.
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 20:29 #803667
Quoting frank
I guess I don't know what you're referring to then.


Reply to Mikie pointed out some of the events I was thinking of. There's a list on wikipedia, but some of those I wouldn't include because they're obviously of the global sort like the IMF, where I'm attempting to put together something like a ideology enforced by states. Or, perhaps a better way to put it, this is the story when you zoom in to the national level, where the ideology is instantiated.
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 20:30 #803668
Reply to frank I simply wouldn't talk of "markets" when it comes to the bronze age. Currency and trade aren't the same things as capitalism.
NOS4A2 April 28, 2023 at 20:31 #803669
Reply to Moliere

Some trade in cryptocurrency, gold, or other contraband, I’m sure. Either way, government is not a necessary component to any space or system where goods and services are exchanged.
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 20:34 #803670
Reply to NOS4A2 I believe my response to @frank covers this. Is neoliberalism an ideology that connects itself to the bronze age?
frank April 28, 2023 at 20:37 #803671
Quoting Moliere
I simply wouldn't talk of "markets" when it comes to the bronze age. Currency and trade aren't the same things as capitalism.


Free markets first appeared during the Bronze Age. They appeared in the outskirts of state domains.

The notion that you can't have a market without state support is just wrong.

frank April 28, 2023 at 20:39 #803672
Quoting NOS4A2
Either way, government is not a necessary component to any space or system where goods and services are exchanged.


Correct. Islam thrived in Central Asia partly because it served as merchant law. There were no significant governments to speak of.
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 20:39 #803673
Reply to frank Alright, fair. It's just wrong. So not a truism.

I want to restrict the domain of discourse for "market", with respect to neoliberalism, to capitalism. So capitalist markets are what we are talking about, rather than some general theory of economy.
frank April 28, 2023 at 20:41 #803674
Quoting Moliere
I want to restrict the domain of discorse for "market", with respect to neoliberalism, to capitalism.


The government's main purpose according to Neoliberalism is to protect the freedom of the markets, with nuclear weapons if necessary.
NOS4A2 April 28, 2023 at 20:42 #803675
Reply to Moliere

It seems more an ideology concerned with how to pull a people from of the successive failures of the centrally-planned and mercantilist past, the ruins in which we are still living.
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 20:43 #803676
Reply to frank And you can see how that requires a state?
frank April 28, 2023 at 20:44 #803677
Quoting Moliere
And you can see how that requires a state?


Of course. Neoliberalism is not opposed to the existence of states.
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 20:45 #803678
Reply to frank OK, so... it seems we're agreeing as long as we acknowledge that TRULY free markets, in the general sense, can exist without a state -- but when talking about neoliberalism, those markets cannot exist without a state.
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 20:51 #803680
Reply to invicta I think that's what I've been saying?

Though I'm acknowledging this more general notion of economy, where people did in fact trade goods and services and used currency outside of the rise of capitalism. But that is a sort of trans-historical mega-theory of economy that isn't really related to neoliberalism.
frank April 28, 2023 at 20:55 #803682
Quoting Moliere
but when talking about neoliberalism, those markets cannot exist without a state.


Sounds like a Ship of Theseus problem. If states slowly disappeared, maybe due to global warming, but the global coffee market survived so that Frank could enjoy a nice cuppa Joe while contemplating the demise of civilization, would it be the same market sans states?

Probably off topic?
Moliere April 28, 2023 at 20:56 #803683
Reply to frank Heh, I was starting to think the same, in terms of being off topic. Somehow I do that...
Manuel April 28, 2023 at 21:02 #803686
Quinn Slobodian is probably the best source on the topic.

Many definitions have been given, having to do with privatization and letting the market run things etc., etc.

What it is, is a way to "encase" the Market (Slobodian's word) such that those at the top play by the rules they establish and let others play the game.

But it very much needs a nanny state to help out, otherwise it collapses, as it did in 2008 and again during the pandemic.
frank April 28, 2023 at 21:09 #803690
Reply to Manuel :up:

Per Slobodian:

"If we place too much emphasis on the category of market fundamentalism, we will fail to notice that the real focus of neoliberal proposals is not on the market per se but on redesigning states, laws, and other institutions to protect the market."
Manuel April 28, 2023 at 21:24 #803695
Reply to frank

Yep, great quote. He's right, as far as I can see.

Heck even people belonging to the Hayek institute (I'm forgetting the name) say that his summary of Neoliberalism, in Globalists, is quite faithful to the original members.

NOS4A2 April 28, 2023 at 21:32 #803699
Here’s an article by a self-proclaimed neoliberal, the American Charles Peters, who wrote “The Neo-Liberal Mafnifesto” back in 1983. He also edited “New Road for America: The Neoliberal Movement”.

I’ll just quote the few paragraphs that distill his neoliberalism.

Our primary concerns are community, democracy, and prosperity. Of them, economic growth is most important now, because it is essential to almost everything else we want to achieve. Our hero is the risk-taking entrepreneur who creates new jobs and better products. "Americans," says Bradley, "have to begin to treat risk more as an opportunity and not as a threat."

We want to encourage the entrepreneur not with Reaganite policies that simply make the rich richer, but with laws designed to help attract investors and customers. For example, Hart is proposing a "new capacity" stock, a class of stock issued "for the explicit purpose of investment in new plants and equipment." The stock would be exempt from capital gains tax on its first resale. This would give investors the incentive they now lack to target their investment on new plants and equipment instead of simply trading old issues, which is what almost all the activity on Wall Street is about today.

We also favor freeing the entrepreneur from the kind of economic regulation that discourages healthy competition. But on matters of health and safety, we know there must be vigorous regulation, because the same capitalism that can give us economic vitality can also sell us Pintos, maim employes, and pollute our skies and streams.

Our support for workers on health and safety issues does not mean support for unions that demand wage increases without regard to productivity increases. That such wage increases have been a substantial factor in this country's economic decline is beyond reasonable doubt. But -- and this is a thought much more likely to occur to neo-liberals like Lester Thurow than to neo-conservatives -- so have ridiculously high salaries for managements that show the same disregard for performance. The recently resigned president of International Harvester was being paid $1.4 million a year as he led his company to the brink of disaster.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1982/09/05/a-neo-liberals-manifesto/21cf41ca-e60e-404e-9a66-124592c9f70d/

He also favours the draft and makes an argument for it in the same article. His affinity is with the Democrat politicians whom he names. He rejects Reaganism.

I wonder why I never hear of this version of neoliberalism, both the nominal and actual kind, but am told of the kind of neoliberalism of Nixon and Milton Friedman, both of whom abolished the draft.
Count Timothy von Icarus April 28, 2023 at 22:07 #803705
Reply to Jamal

I think you have it right. As a historical moment with a lot of theorists it's always going to be a bit of a fuzzy term.

The only part I might watch it trying to condense this explanation is "strong interventionist state." This makes me think of European social democrats or Bernie Sanders. But the politicians generally cited as representing neoliberalism are Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, it's more the ideology of the 80s-90s US Republican party or Christian Democrats in Europe.

I've always thought "market economy," as opposed to a control economy (controlled by the state or a nobility with special legal status) was less loaded with competing definitions than capitalism, but it's still a fuzzy term.

Strangely, "neoliberal" in the vernacular has morphed into being a sort of stand in for "center left." It's sort of an insult in the sense that none of the new targets for the label embrace the term; Joe Biden doesn't want to be a neoliberal, while neoliberal theorists did embrace the term. So, you can see right wing talking heads complaining about "neoliberals," while also arguing for neoliberal policy in the same segment.

Sort of a weird turn that I think resulted from "liberal" coming to be synonymous in the political vernacular with "left wing," and further left Democrats using the term to slam their more right wing Democratic rivals (not saying this was a wholly unjustified comparison, but it's not a term center Dems have been eager to use to describe themselves; they don't want to be Reagan.)
frank April 28, 2023 at 22:20 #803707
Quoting Manuel
Heck even people belonging to the Hayek institute (I'm forgetting the name) say that his summary of Neoliberalism, in Globalists, is quite faithful to the original members.


I think so. I was reading a biography of Hayek at the same time I read Globalists. I started on The Road to Serfdom when my interest fizzled.

Hayek believed the Nazis were the outcome of failed leftism. Wendy Brown says his social plan has given rise to a new wave of fascism. Apparently whether it's right or left that fails, the result is Nazis. :worry:
Manuel April 28, 2023 at 22:30 #803711
Reply to frank

Yeah, all the evils of the world are the lefts fault.

Von Mises on the other hand was gushing with Joy as the Austrian state smashed union workers.

Fine people these guys...
Tom Storm April 28, 2023 at 23:28 #803717
Quoting Jamal
I don’t think there’s much of a difference between US and non-US uses of the term. It has globalized itself successfully.


True. And neo-liberalism has been a huge subject of debate here in Australia for decades. We originally called it economic rationalism in the first years of Thatcher and Reagan and here, where our pseudo-Labor government, privatised, deregulated and sold off as much as it dared. Later Britain's New Labour borrowed some of their moves.

Interestingly, I recall conservatives being against selling off assets and privatisation back in the late 1980's and early 1990's. We even had conservative intellectuals writing popular books against the phenomenon of 'rationalism' as it was then known. This is before old conservatism faded and remerged as a market-driven right-wing.

Obama's bailing out of the banks after the 2008 crisis was a conspicuous neo-liberal move. Cornel West described Obama as a 'black mascot of Wall Street.' The point, I guess, is that liberalism seems inescapable.

A later Labor Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, an academic and intellectual, even wrote a high profile essay on the subject of neo-liberalism in 2009.

https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2009/february/1319602475/kevin-rudd/global-financial-crisis#mtr

Count Timothy von Icarus April 29, 2023 at 00:14 #803723
Reply to frank

Apparently whether it's right or left that fails, the result is Nazis. :worry:


"Reductio ad Hitlerum" is my favorite philosophy joke phrase.
Mikie April 29, 2023 at 01:14 #803730
Reply to Moliere

Yes, because black markets and Bronze Age trade really factors into the modern world. You should apologize for having assumed you were dealing with adults.

Jamal April 29, 2023 at 09:04 #803791
Quoting NOS4A2
This presented a problem for disaffected socialists after the collapse of the Soviet Union, both ideologically and politically. They could no longer deny that central planning was a failure, and that their popularity was waning. This led critics of the "neoliberalism" of Reagan and Thatcher, and newly disaffected socialists and social democrats like Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, and Gerd Schröder, to re-brand as free market progressives. They tried to push it as a global movement. It's odd; though they were explicitly critical of the supply-side economics of Reagan and Thatcher, they are somehow considered in the same pantheon as Reagan and Thatcher, with neoliberalism flowing through them.

Personally, I take a different approach. I would call their agenda and the period since Thatcher and Reagan (and perhaps Bush Sr.) "neosocialism", because it better represents the spirit of its architects and reflects their turn away from the Old Left socialism into what Bill Clinton called the New Democrats, or what Blair called New Labour. This political triangulation flows right into "compassionate conservatism" of Bush Jr. and David Cameron. Tony Blair stood in front of the International Socialist Congress in ‘97 and pleaded for a "modernized social democracy", and this modernized social democracy prevails.


I don’t think the differences are as significant as you’re making out. The fact is that deregulation, privatization, and globalization continued apace, no matter the rhetoric. Reagan and Thatcher laid the groundwork for an abnegation of political control over the economy, the establishment of a system in which voters are not able to decide on the basic structure of society, capitalism being mostly left to do its thing except when things go wrong.

As others in this discussion have pointed out, echoing Quinn Slobodian and the SEP article I linked to in the OP, neoliberalism is okay with an interventionist state, if it’s interventionist in the right way. This doesn’t make it non-neoliberal unless you take neoliberal to be something like right-libertarianism, which it never was.

To me the term “neosocialism” doesn’t really work unless you’re just negatively fetishizing government, in the popular fashion of the American right; socialism is about common ownership and control, and we don’t have anything like that.
Jamal April 30, 2023 at 00:51 #804003
Reply to NOS4A2

I’ll say a bit more. Although you frame the history differently from the way I do, I think you’ve identified what I’m most interested in, namely progressive neoliberalism, which can be said to have started with Clinton and Blair. Where you see them as a break from neoliberalism, or from Reagan and Thatcher, I see them as a continuation economically—despite the differences you mention—but a break in terms of social attitudes. In other words, they represented the formation of the left wing of neoliberalism, of which identity politics and wokeness are the latest developments on its left wing. (To clarify in case anyone takes this too weakly: I mean that identity politics and wokeness are the politics of the progressive wing of the ruling class of neoliberal capitalism.)

And this might have something to do with postmodernism, as you allude to here:

Quoting NOS4A2
Philosophically, Michel Foucault’s idea of Biopolitics and “Left Governmentality” are worth checking out. Some say he was flirting with neoliberalism in those lectures.


I’m trying to pull stuff together. Currently I’m not sure how postmodernism fits, though it’s a common observation that neoliberalism and postmodernism fit together pretty well.
Count Timothy von Icarus April 30, 2023 at 01:05 #804006
Reply to Tom Storm

Obama's bailing out of the banks after the 2008 crisis was a conspicuous neo-liberal move. Cornel West described Obama as a 'black mascot of Wall Street.' The point, I guess, is that liberalism seems inescapable.


It's something that might be justified under neoliberalism but it isn't uniquely neoliberal. Keynesianism would justify the same move. I think virtually all modern economic theorists would say you bail out the banks at that point; it's a 1929 type moment. The differences in economic theory apply more to "what do you do after bailing out the banks to prevent doing it again."

Obama wasn't even elected when the main bailout program, TARP, was passed on October 3, 2008 and wouldn't be President for several more months. He has other legislative options after that, but they had to pass Congress. He couldn't veto the bailout and I doubt he could have gotten a bill passed to kick the brace holding up the economy out of place at the exact moment unemployment was skyrocketing and contagion was hitting markets around the globe.
Tom Storm April 30, 2023 at 05:25 #804021
Reply to Count Timothy von Icarus What you say is largely correct. My point is better described by journalist Glenn Greenwald who in 2013 wrote:

...one of the greatest and most shameful failings of the Obama administration: the lack of even a single arrest or prosecution of any senior Wall Street banker for the systemic fraud that precipitated the 2008 financial crisis: a crisis from which millions of people around the world are still suffering.

[i]What Obama justice officials did instead is exactly what they did in the face of high-level Bush era crimes of torture and warrantless eavesdropping: namely, acted to protect the most powerful factions in the society in the face of overwhelming evidence of serious criminality. Indeed, financial elites were not only vested with immunity for their fraud, but thrived as a result of it, even as ordinary Americans continue to suffer the effects of that crisis.

Worst of all, Obama justice officials both shielded and feted these Wall Street oligarchs (who, just by the way, overwhelmingly supported Obama's 2008 presidential campaign) as they simultaneously prosecuted and imprisoned powerless Americans for far more trivial transgressions. As Harvard law professor Larry Lessig put it two weeks ago when expressing anger over the DOJ's persecution of Aaron Swartz: "we live in a world where the architects of the financial crisis regularly dine at the White House." (Indeed, as "The Untouchables" put it: while no senior Wall Street executives have been prosecuted, "many small mortgage brokers, loan appraisers and even home buyers" have been).[/i]

There's a lot of journalism about Obama's ' business as ususal' neo-liberal presidency along these lines.
NOS4A2 April 30, 2023 at 07:23 #804038
Reply to Jamal

Though I would use different terms, and stress the difference, I think that’s a good assessment.

In the case of Clinton, his adopting of deregulation and small government was largely political triangulation rather than principle, meaning he used the rhetoric to syphon votes from his opponents as an act of opportunism. His finishing touch was to “put a human face on the economy”, I guess by continually biting his own lip.

But it’s interesting to watch the transition from the ideas of the 80’s into the ideas of the 90’s, as it was explained by the most powerful people on the earth at the time: Bill Clinton and a Tony Blair. If you ever have the time to waste, watch their Third Way conference in the below c-span video and you can witness the shift in real time between what you might call right and left-wing neoliberalism. It seems to me it was more a matter of being associated with the Old Left, than anything to do with liberal principle.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?122788-1/progressive-governance-21st-century

I probably wouldn’t connect neoliberalism to post-modernism, but only because many on the conservative side of the bench think liberalism is a 1-to-1 ratio with modernity, like in the philosophy of Alexander Dugin. He holds some ultra conservative, ethnocentric, and anti-liberal ideas, seeing the collapse of liberalism as the perfect breeding ground for a resurgent new right. Since he conflates modernism itself with liberalism, Dugin is explicitly post-modern and illiberal. He is a vociferous critic of neoliberalism and globalism because the individualism of it all dissolves his favorite collective, the “ethnos”.

If the rise of the European Right is an indication, what comes after “neoliberalism” will be anti-liberal, while all that neo-stuff remains intact.