Vowels and consonants: Plurals and Names in English, Sanskrit and Basque
I personally believe that the most struggles of a language learner are the correct pronunciation and how to form the regular plural in English. If we ask most people how to form the regular plural in English the answer would probably be, "Add an 's'."
One problem is that this "s" is not always pronounced as an "s." It is in "pot, pots," but not in "dog, dogs."
(Interesting, right?) There, the "s" comes out as a "z," as though the word were "dogz." So how does that work? Well, the "s" is pronounced as a "z" after vowels and after voiced consonsants, which means sounds that are not vowels but where the vocal cords nevertheless vibrate. To understand this topic we have to know why some consonants are voiced and others do not. Something that is only likely to come up in Linguistics, or in languages where the sounds are organized in those terms, like Sanskrit. For example: the letters ?, ?, ?, and ? may have underdots. The underdot ?, etc., are called "retroflexes," because the tongue curls up towards the roof of the mouth. English words borrowed into Hindi, like "doctor," are thus pronounced with the retroflexes -- ?oc?or
But there's more. The plural of "church" is not "churchs" but "churches." This "es" is prounounced "?z," where the vowel, a "schwa," is "reduced" and indefinite. Why does this happen? A sibilant is an "s," "z," "sh" (""), or the sort of "z" in "azure," which in other languages can be written "zh" or "." We never see it written that way in English, but it may be in other languages (Czech, for example)
Another interesting example: Spanish name "Xavier." "Xavier" can be pronounced like "Javier" in Spanish, but the "x" in Basque is an "sh" in all its occurrences, as it is in Catalan, Galician, and Portuguese. In English "Xavier" may be pronounced as in French, with a "z" for the "x"
Conclusion after these premises and examples: The people can, and always have, spoken fluent English, and produced correct pluralizations, without knowing any of these things. Then, are these "rules" part of no conscious knowledge?
What do you guys think? Did you ever be aware of these sounds? Link: Why I am a Platonist: Plurals in English
One problem is that this "s" is not always pronounced as an "s." It is in "pot, pots," but not in "dog, dogs."
(Interesting, right?) There, the "s" comes out as a "z," as though the word were "dogz." So how does that work? Well, the "s" is pronounced as a "z" after vowels and after voiced consonsants, which means sounds that are not vowels but where the vocal cords nevertheless vibrate. To understand this topic we have to know why some consonants are voiced and others do not. Something that is only likely to come up in Linguistics, or in languages where the sounds are organized in those terms, like Sanskrit. For example: the letters ?, ?, ?, and ? may have underdots. The underdot ?, etc., are called "retroflexes," because the tongue curls up towards the roof of the mouth. English words borrowed into Hindi, like "doctor," are thus pronounced with the retroflexes -- ?oc?or
But there's more. The plural of "church" is not "churchs" but "churches." This "es" is prounounced "?z," where the vowel, a "schwa," is "reduced" and indefinite. Why does this happen? A sibilant is an "s," "z," "sh" (""), or the sort of "z" in "azure," which in other languages can be written "zh" or "." We never see it written that way in English, but it may be in other languages (Czech, for example)
Another interesting example: Spanish name "Xavier." "Xavier" can be pronounced like "Javier" in Spanish, but the "x" in Basque is an "sh" in all its occurrences, as it is in Catalan, Galician, and Portuguese. In English "Xavier" may be pronounced as in French, with a "z" for the "x"
Conclusion after these premises and examples: The people can, and always have, spoken fluent English, and produced correct pluralizations, without knowing any of these things. Then, are these "rules" part of no conscious knowledge?
What do you guys think? Did you ever be aware of these sounds? Link: Why I am a Platonist: Plurals in English
Comments (40)
I only learned about this kind of stuff as part of my university education. Most native English speakers wouldn't be aware of these nuances. Anyhow, no explicit knowledge of any language is required for proficient use under conditions of natural exposure from birth. It's know-how not know-that. But if you miss a certain window in childhood, no amount of exposure, even combined with explicit knowledge, can guarantee correct pronunciation, so in that sense, this could be considered a primary problem. However, it depends very much on circumstance. There are too many variables to say definitively what causes learners most problems (what learners? what language? what constitutes a "problem"? etc. )
The question "how do you spell it" doesn't exist.
Quoting javi2541997
People who can do that are people who have learned English from exposure mainly instead of rules of grammar.
Some people learn to speak around 10 months old. I think they learn by mimicking sounds and connecting the vocal sequences to emotions (maybe more than analyzing any of it intellectually?)
I think that's why people who don't speak the same language can sort of communicate anyway. The emotional level is still there.
Baden, thank you for your answer. I am aware that you have knowledge of linguistics, so I appreciate your opinion.
I like what you posted: "it is know-how not know-that", and yes, we have to look at each case or student. I don't want to consider the pronunciation as a "problem" but a struggle or even frustration. When I was in high school, I had to read in class paragraphs about different topics in English. I remember that one of those paragraphs started with the following word: "schedule". I didn't even know how to start reading it because the "sche" was not in my consciousness. One of the girls in the class said (that she ended up studying linguists later on) said that I had "phonemic deafness" and that's why it was impossible to me to pronounce "schedule" due to the lack of finding the sound of the consonants in my awareness.
Interesting!
But, do you have any issue or struggle related to grammar or syntax? It seems that spelling is not so important in Albanian, but what about the other uses in your vocabulary?
Quoting TheMadMan
Yes, I agree. But, despite they would have skills in detecting vowels and consonants, maybe they would have grammatical mistakes. Here we are to find an equilibrium when we learn a language. Well, it depends in the language too.
I agree with you, Frank. Learning from mimicking sounds when we are children is important because it helps us to learn one of the most difficult things: language.
Yet, this advantage can be a struggle too when you are learning another language with different sounds and pronunciations. This is when the difficulty starts. For example: In Spanish we pronounce the double "rr" in perro (dog) using a hard accent in the consonant, like if we say arrrrrrrrrre you ok this morning?
When you are used to specific sounds, it can be a struggle when you switch to another language, but the main paradox of this topic is the fact that we usually learn these "rules" unconsciously!
No Its pretty flexible and simple although it may seem unusual to a foreigner.
Quoting javi2541997
What do you mean?
I mean: Albanian seems to do not have big issues in phonology because the sounds correspond with the words, vowels and consonants. But, is your language complex in other areas? Like gender endings, conjugation, vocabulary and its syntax, etc... I am Spanish. How difficult would learning Albanian be for me?
To be more specific, as an Albanian, you are used to the sounds of the words of your language since you were a kid. Would it be a struggle for a foreigner who is learning Albanian to replicate these sounds?
mmmm... Grammar and conjugation could be challenging since it is complex in an unfamiliar way.
Syntax I think its simpler, vocabulary its a lot of new unfamiliar words.
Quoting javi2541997
No I think its very easy in general, judging how many italians have learned albanian.
Unusual letters to pronounce might be: C Ç Ë Nj Zh, although it would depend on one's native language.
Im not sure if this is a fact but from our experience, it seems like we can imitate any sound and intonation of other languages with little effort.
For example pronouncing Japanese words its really easy, maybe because they, like us pronounce words in syllables i.e ku-ru-ma, ma-ki-na.
or russian, arabic, latin etc.
It's unfortunately not true. E. g. the Czech ? is notoriously difficult to pronounce.
I understand. It is challenging because it has both unfamiliar words and grammar.
Quoting TheMadMan
I think rather than one's native language is one's consciousness of those sounds. My guess is that my awareness holds some of the sounds of your example, because I believe that I can replicate some of them:
C: "cé"
Ç: "s" or the similar sound of a S.
Ë: É a vowel with big pronunciation.
Nj: I do not know how to pronounce it, the sound of these consonants are not in my mind when they are together!
Zh: Like "ch"
Quoting TheMadMan
Some consonants that are not a common use in other vocabularies can be complex to pronounce. For example: "Nj" or Polish/Czech words and vocabulary. They are full of consonants and only few vowels. It is interesting because I guess we should to analyse each language and then conclude which one is more complex to replicate.
I just listened it on youtube it was fairly easy to mimic. Maybe it would need some practice to use it in words. its was almost like saying rrzh in albanian.
Not really.
They sound more like:
C: ts
Ç: ch as in cheap
Ë: idk how to explain this, maybe like the E in CERN
Nj: like Ny russian Nyet!
Zh: like the ending of mirage
Quoting javi2541997
Yeah who knows. My guess is some chinese dialect
When I was studying Spanish, the r's weren't hard for me. I'm a native English speaker, but I have a natural tendency to roll r's. So when I was a child, I had trouble saying words like three the way American speakers do because I rolled the r. People treated it like a speech impediment.
What was challenging for me about Spanish was that when I went to learn it, all the French I ever learned decided to come out in place of Spanish. I didn't even realize I remembered any French, but there it was. :grin:
Thank you for helping me to understand them and how to pronounce it. Another thing that I learned today!
Quoting TheMadMan
Yes, I agree. Regarding Chinese dialects we have to add another complex task: the ability for recognizing the ideograms! if I cannot read an ideogram, it would impossible to replicate the sound in mind...
My pleasure, I would ask for you to return the favor but 7 years of watching telenovelas when I was a kid already did that. :lol:
Did French came out in place of Spanish because of words or sounds? What an interesting thought indeed. As a Spaniard, I consider French a complex and different language from mine. Yet, Portuguese, Italian and even Greek are similar in pronunciation. It is true that Greek vocabulary is very different from Spanish one, but we speak so similar. It is not the same case regarding French: they have a different vocabulary and complex sounds in vowels and accents.
On the other hand, if French comes out while learning Spanish, I recommend you to check Catalan whenever you have free time to do so. Catalan is a mix of both Spanish and French and maybe you could like it.
:rofl: :up:
I can assume that you could understand me if you listen me speaking!
Yeah, I may not know every word but I know what you mean.
I have read interesting data regarding to our conversation that we had two days ago.
The paper is about a brief review on Greek language, syntax and its evolution. The author says:
...But the presence of the ancient Greek language is not surprising. There were languages in the Balkans of the Illyrian and Thracian groups that would not be attested for centuries, if ever. The modern survivor is Albanian, which does not emerge into history until the end of the Middle Ages (mentioned, 1284; attested, 1464), yet which cannot have been anywhere else all that time, while bearing the influence of surrounding languages on it. As in Anatolia, the speakers of unattested indigenous languages become literate by learning Greek. But the matter is largely speculative.
A good and interesting example regarding to the pronunciation of vowels: The name "Ghicas": (Gjika)
In Albanian it is written as "Gjika", but it is pronounced with just a G because Modern Greek ?? is used to write "g" as a stop. Like omitting the J. So, we have to pronounce it like saying "ghicas"
Is this correct? How much the Greek phonology have influenced in Albanian pronunciation? :smile:
Very little. There is higher probability of Greek grammar influence than phonetics.
The only influence Greek phonetics might have had is in southern Albania. The dialect there is very different from the rest, especially north.
As a northerner myself when I listen to Greek it sounds very alien phonetically.
Quoting javi2541997
Gjika is pronounced more like Jika than Gika.
We pronouce G - Gëh as in Game.
And Gj as J in Jacket.
Quoting javi2541997
Again, maybe the south. But I would bet that literacy was more influenced by Latin. Since after 3rd century A.D Albania became very much influenced by the roman Catholicism.
Quoting TheMadMan
I understand. I guess dialects are a curious topic in most countries of the world. We have the same debate in Spain. For example: In cities like Madrid or Valladolid, they tend to speak in a neutral phonetic, but as much as you go further to the south, the accent switches drastically. I do not see it as a problem, but it could be a barrier in communication.
Quoting TheMadMan
Oh, wow! I was wrong. The G is silent not the J in the word Gjika. I believe that I have the sound in my mind and I can give it a try and pronounce the word!
Quoting TheMadMan
The Spanish vocabulary too, indeed! We had both Greek and Latin influences in our syntax, lexicon and phonetics. But I guess the latter is the one which has been used the most in the development of our language. Yet, another interesting fact: Spanish uses the letter "Y" from Greek, but Catalan uses "i" from Latin. I think they sound equally but the grammar is obviously different.
From an english POV yes but for us silent letters don't exist, we pronounce everything.
J itself is pronounced as Y in you, without the G it would be pronounced Yika.
Also fyi Gjika is not a word in Albanian.
True? False?
Honestly, I don't know. It does sound very plausible though.
So, you pronounce each vowel or consonant in the words, right? The phonology in Albanian seems to be interesting, indeed!
Quoting TheMadMan
I see. :up:
Quoting TheMadMan
Exactly. I have read somewhere that Gjika is a name or last name. When I searched Gjika yesterday in Google, it appeared different people from Albania. So, I guess that such a noun is related to persons and not objects.
Yes.
Quoting javi2541997
Yes it could be a name of last name, probably in Kosovo.
Interesting!
I think I am saying "interesting" a lot when I interact with you by the way! :lol:
Well its good to be interested especially when you discover new territory.
Some days ago I saw Comoros as an option in a list to "chose your country" and I realized how much of the world we don't really know. How many countries, people, languages and traditions we are not even aware that exist.
I thought: There are so many people who were born and died in these unfamiliar cultures that will not be part of history, so many ways of life, and we only focus on the mainstream worldview that is offered to us.
It seems like the Matthew Principle applies almost everywhere.
So yes it is interesting to travel on uncharted waters.
I agree. The different cultures and languages of this world are that varied that is nearly impossible, or at least very difficult, to have a deep look on them.
I have always been interested in Japanese culture and I read books and some stuff on the topic. But, I am not going to lie, language is a barrier regarding to understand Japanese people. Yet, I think it is worthy to at least have a look, without the necessity of being an expert.
On the other hand, I am currently having a big interest in Greek culture and Balkan history. So, I appreciate your help to make me learn news things. Nonetheless, language and phonetics are still issues for me... the use of Albanian consonants seem to be complex, but worthy to try!
We do not have umlaut in the vowels and our consonants are not so expressive. With the exception of the double RR, in perro. :smile:
Yeah me too. Although I don't study it directly but through zen history and philosophy. The older the texts are the more I feel there is a gap between the original meaning and the translation I read.
That's why I find the Kyoto school philosophers and D. T. Suzuki very helpful on bridging that gap.
Quoting javi2541997
In Albanian history you might find the story of Gjergj Kastriot Skënderbeu most impressive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Qelvsi_5E&t=2s&ab_channel=KingsandGenerals
Yeah, I agree. Asian philosophy - specifically regarding to zen or ethics - is impressive and it is pretty developed. What I do not understand is why it is underrated is the Western world. Some "philosophers" or "thinkers" consider their principles just to have fun in a "hippy mode"
Quoting TheMadMan
Thank you so much for that recommendation. I am a bit busy right now, but I promise I will see it later and comment later on! :up:
If you ask me, its like the story of the fox and the "sour" grapes. Its hard to let go of western dualistic way of thinking and thats what zen requires. It wants to push beyond logic and arrive to what is. So they use the excuse of the "hippy mode" to discard it altogether.
So when one does so, I just challenge them to read Keiji Nishitani and then call zen hippy :lol:
I agree. Western world cannot get rid of dualism and other metaphysical stuff... I think it is a shame because the world is not only centralised here. Tao Te Ching is important as much as Locke, for example.
On the other hand, I saw the video of Skanderbeg.
I am not an expert on Ottoman wars/time, but after seeing the video I do understand why he is considered a national hero in Albania. The commentator of the video explains pretty well how Skanderbeg defended Albanian frontier and territory but most important, how he acted with cleverness. It is impressive how in a small land, he survived the attacks of the overwhelming soldiers of Ottoman empire.
Another interesting fact: Skanderbeg in Spanish is said Jorge Castriota (Albanian: Gjergj Kastrioti)
Yes, Gjergj Kastrioti is his real name. Skenderbeg is the name given by the ottomans, Skender+Beu(sire)
I going to give it a try and pronounce both consonants and vowels:
Gjergj: I guess it is similar to "George" and the J is silent, but the last gj is complex to me. I do not know if it is an accent or just consonants.
Kastrioti: I pronounce it as "cÁstrioti" with a big accentuation in the vowel.
I recorded my voice pronouncing the name! :smile:
That was really good. You just need to remove the O in Gjergj. Kastrioti was spot on.
Here's a Ytube short where the name is pronounced:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3AB1Z9QmThU