Is Intercessory Prayer Egotistical?

Quoting Art48

The pros and the cons, the yin and the yang, of my thoughts about prayer.

I think the people who sincerely say "I'll pray for you" believe that God hears their prayers and might intercede. I'm not a theist, so I wouldn't say that, but I could say something like "My thoughts will be with you." Both phrases, beyond any possible religious meanings, also convey compassion and fellow-feeling. I don't see any particular reason to question or analyze that. People who say things like that might also mow your lawn, feed your cats, and bring in your mail while you're in the hospital.

As for asking God for $100 to put on a horse in the fifth race at Pimlico... there's a whole branch of Christianity that works at that - prosperity gospel. Kind of creepy. If I were God I'd send them all to purgatory for a few weeks. But as far as I can tell, I'm not.

I bet a lot of believers also pray for the strength and courage to do what's necessary and difficult. That seems like a pretty reasonable thing to ask God for help with.

Quoting Art48

In Ambrose Bierce’s “The Unabridged Devil’s Dictionary,” we have: “Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy.”

:fire: :pray:

Here's more on the learned placebo-narcissism of prayer from a fellow Bronx street sage (wiseass) ...
[quote=George Carlin][i]So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.
I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. [/i]And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will?[i] It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun.[/i][/quote]

Prayer is incoherent. Like most of Christianity.

The most it can be is an expression of hope.

T Clark, I agree they are trying to convey compassion and fellow-feeling, but there are many ways to convey that. I don’t see anything wrong with analyzing the particular way they select.

180 Proof, Carlin was a better theologian than some professional theologians.

Banno, “Prayer is incoherent. Like most of Christianity.”
Amen. Here’s a new book I’m reading that makes the same point.
“The Anti-Christian Book: Truth is Anti-Christian. The Bible tells Enormous Lies about God.”

Quoting Art48

180 Proof, Carlin was a better theologian than some professional theologians.

:up:

Reply to Art48 Sending people positive mental energy (praying for them) is never a bad thing. It's pretty egotistical to think you can bend God to your will, but it's also an unselfish act. Praying for oneself, however...that's kind of selfish. What the prayerful person should do is use the mental energy praying to introspect and lead a better life, and maybe good things will happen.

Quoting T Clark

As for asking God for $100 to put on a horse in the fifth race at Pimlico... there's a whole branch of Christianity that works at that - prosperity gospel.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/01/09/trump-prosperity-gospel-same-lie-neither-christians-grace-column/2835189001/

It figures that if Trump were aligned with any faith, it would be prosperity gospel.

[quote=God]Prayer is a sacrament for you, not for me. Obviously my will is always done on Earth as it is in Heaven. And I already know what you want and the answer is going to be "No." except when you happen to want what I will. But you like to assuage your feelings of helplessness and even pretend to get your Mother Mary to ask me for for you. But really, all you need to say is 'sorry', and 'thank you' and even that is for your own comfort, not for my benefit. The Creator needs nothing from his creation.[/quote]

Quoting Art48

The question is sincere. I have thoughts that say prayer is egotistical, and a feeling that maybe it is not, that maybe I’m missing something.

So my hypothesis would be that in the Israelite prayer system was akin to other gods. That is to say, it was transactional. You honor the deity, the deity will show its favor in enhancing life through good crops, prosperity, and preventing disaster.

With interaction with more complicated systems like Platonism, Judaic prayer took on more of a "connection" aspect. Prayer was necessary to bring the "End Times" and the "Messianic Age", but it was also there to acknowledge and connect with the deity by praising him, etc. As the initial tribal religion became hermeneutical, these kind of "connection with god" ideas came to the fore.

Prayer for someone or for something to happen probably goes back to the transactional aspect. However, I would imagine it was more communal (sacrifices at a Temple) but over time, in Westernized conceptions (and I'd imagine especially Protestant), it became much more about personal prayers about this or that rather than a set of prayers one says that is proscribed.

Reply to schopenhauer1 :up:

Quoting unenlightened

Prayer is a sacrament for you, not for me. Obviously my will is always done on Earth as it is in Heaven. And I already know what you want and the answer is going to be "No." except when you happen to want what I will. But you like to assuage your feelings of helplessness and even pretend to get your Mother Mary to ask me for for you. But really, all you need to say is 'sorry', and 'thank you' and even that is for your own comfort, not for my benefit. The Creator needs nothing from his creation.
— God

:fire: :smirk:

Reply to Art48 There are all kinds of motives or reasons why people pray, some good, some not. I wonder about the efficacy of prayer. People pray, for e.g., for safety while traveling, and if they arrive safely, then they believe their prayer was answered. What's bizarre is that any answer can fit within their beliefs about prayer. Even if they don't get a desired outcome, it's still an answer. It's like the self-sealing argument, any outcome can fit within their belief. There is no counter-evidence. The truth is there is no way to know if a particular outcome is from God, it could simply be chance or even deterministic.

Quoting Sam26

There is no counter-evidence. The truth is there is no way to know if a particular outcome is from God, it could simply be chance or even deterministic.

I agree. If someone believes God always answers prayers but that sometimes the answer is "No" then there is no way to tell if prayer works or not.

Reply to Art48 Don't get me wrong, I'm not against prayer, I just don't know what to make of it.

Reply to Art48 A cynical atheist said, "Nothing fails like prayer." Ambrose Bierce's definition of prayer is similar in tone.

The act of prayer ought to be a humbling, rather than an ego-boosting, experience. God knows all about us, after all. Our files are complete and open to him for review. Who are we to have so many demands?

That, at least, is one teaching about prayer.

Reply to BC while I can appreciate that there are Christians who treat it this way, maybe even most Christians, it does make one wonder why prayer is practiced the way it is. Why do so many people pray to tell god about the things they want and need? I feel like this practice can leave people confused, divorcing them from the humbling part and giving them the idea that God acts as a genie for the deserving.

Some prayer structures don't have this problem.

Quoting Art48

But prayer is asking God for something. Do they mean to say that God had decided I would recover slowly but, because THEY are asking, God will speed up my recovery? Do they think they are that important? Isn’t that egotism?

It is not egotism to petition an important or powerful person. Some petitions are motivated by egotism/pride, and some are not. If you have a reason other than pride to think that the petition is worthwhile, then you need not be egotistic. Christians do, and if you think impetration is egotistic, then Heaven knows what you think of the hypostatic union. :wink:

(The truly egotistic people don't bother with impetration. They just attempt to do it themselves.)

Quoting Sam26

People pray, for e.g., for safety while traveling, and if they arrive safely, then they believe their prayer was answered. What's bizarre is that any answer can fit within their beliefs about prayer.

Why is that bizarre?

Quoting Sam26

It's like the self-sealing argument, any outcome can fit within their belief.

Prayer is not an argument.

Quoting Sam26

The truth is there is no way to know if a particular outcome is from God, it could simply be chance or even deterministic.

If God (of the classical variety) exists then all outcomes are from him. To say that it might be from God or it might be from something else is to misunderstand God.

More mundanely, if I ask someone to do something, and they are capable of doing it, and they receive my request, then any outcome will implicate a choice on their part. This isn't "bizarre," it's quite logical.

Quoting Art48

Do they mean to say that God had decided I would recover slowly but, because THEY are asking, God will speed up my recovery? Do they think they are that important? Isn’t that egotism?

Personally, I do think God thinks each one of us is that important. I think he died for me, and my sins (not even something good I did). And for each one of us. He showed us how important we are to him. That's the God I pray to. And egotism would just get in the way of that relationship. I better approach the person who died on a cross for me, who invented space-time before that, with some non-egotistical humility, and thankfulness, and praise for greatness, if I would think he would do me any more favors, such as "give us this day our daily bread" or "speedy recovery".

Quoting Art48

For instance, suppose I’m scheduled for some medical operation and someone says “I’ll pray that you get well quickly.” Nice. But prayer is asking God for something. Do they mean to say that God had decided I would recover slowly but, because THEY are asking, God will speed up my recovery? Do they think they are that important? Isn’t that egotism?

You're not understanding it.
A prayer is asking for a pity. Who asks for a pittance? The lowly humans. This is their way of showing humility. As in, I am no one in this world who is asking for a pity that all goes well with [insert name here]'s condition.

No one asks a king (the highest command in the land of humans) for a pity -- humans ask a king for mercy. Know the difference.

First of all you guys speak as if God was changing His mind in the result of prayer. Did you even study philosophy bros, every monotheist from Aristotle to Descartes will say that God is unchaning, just creates things such that they will answer the petition of a person because of that petition. And yes prayer can be a reason for things being different, because ultimately God decides the fate of a person based on the goodness of her soul. I don’t know if it’s the main reason for prayer because the first reason is to increase in the love of God and prepare for eternity in His presence but this also happens through grace, i.e. supernatural intervention of God, because humans can’t increase in the knowledge and love of God by natural means. It just means things don’t operate by their natural powers. There begins in things something with a relation of being immediately created by God. That’s the change in the world brought about by a miracle. The decision to create the whole world as it is is one.

Another issue is yes it is asking a lot, but there’s nothing impossible for God and we are His creatures so why not ask Him. A theist assumes her life is for a reason anyway.

Quoting Johnnie

And yes prayer can be a reason for things being different, because ultimately God decides the fate of a person based on the goodness of her soul.

Not true. Sometimes, those who are wicked are shown the right way, too. And forgiven.

Quoting Art48

have thoughts that say prayer is egotistical, and a feeling that maybe it is not, that maybe I’m missing something.

While I am not purporting to provide an authoritative answer; and while, I myself only prayer instinctively in moments of danger, as in, "oh God, don't let me fall" I too have wondered.

From a so called "Christian" perspective, I would say the opposite. It is egotistical not to humble yourself and admit that you are a useless rag* in need of God's intervention. It is "pride" which makes you think you are too selfless to perform petitionary prayer.

*remember, I do not think so; this is from a Christian pov