Im 40 years old this year, and I still dont know what to do, whether I should continue to live/die
(Note: This is going to be my personal sharing of my life's story, but it also has to do with existential crisis or existential depression. Also, I'm from Indonesia, English is not my first language, so please do kindly bear with me. Thank you very much)
Long story short, my life is a complete failure. Its full of wrong decisions, (in)actions, regrets, mistakes after mistakes, that I honestly think maybe its already too late to fix everything (eg: Im losing all the good chances/opportunities, as Im getting old now). Its really ironic & tragic, because a lot of people always say that Im very talented especially in music (I used to be quite an active musician & composer/songwriter, but sadly Im still not famous & successful), smart, a deep thinker, a highly sensitive person, etc etc.
I am also an idealist, meaning that I actually have a BIG vision & idea for the future of civilization/mankind/humanity, to make a real progress & leap jump in the future. For example, I seriously think that the real, truest meaning of life is to make a HUGE progress, a sort of evolution, for the future. And for our Human species, in my opinion, the real purpose is to unlock our wildest potential: our humans Imagination. And Im talking about all those most creative, artistic, & imaginative humans minds for example like in all those most imaginative, fantasy, sci-fi movies, games, novels, comics, anime/manga, and any other most amazing work of arts. So in my opinion, our humanity/mankind/civilizations most important & biggest task is to turn all those imaginations into a reality. And thats why Im now a big/huge proponent & supporter, as well as very interested in technology such as: Virtual Reality (VR), Augmented Reality (AR), and also Artificial Intelligence (AI), and also some thinking & concepts such as Transhumanism. But then again, sadly, the problem is I dont know how to reach all those dreams & ideas of mine. And that is really depressing.
Im a Chinese-Indonesian, living in Jakarta (Indonesia). And the biggest problem is the culture/society here, also the mindset of the people here. Theyre all still mostly very conservative, traditional, & outdated mindset/perspective about life. Especially with my Asian/Chinese-Indonesian parents for example, they still only think that the only meaning of life or purpose is simply just to survive, find a good job (or business), and make money, & then get married, have kids/children, etc etc. But for me, this cant be all there is to life; Life should be so much more than that! But then, another biggest problem that I do realize and finally admit now is that, sadly, perhaps its all due to the many flaws in my personalities too: I listen too much to what other people/person say, I care too much (deeply), Im easily down & depressed, & I also lack the drive/energy/motivation (and this is why perhaps I appear to be just lazy in the eyes of most people, including in my parents eyes), especially this year, when my Existential Depression just getting so much worse to the point of even being suicidal (having suicidal thoughts/fantasy/ideations almost everyday).
Im 40 years old this year, and here I am now, in reality, Im still living with my parents, almost can be viewed as jobless/unemployed, or even a hikikomori (a shut-in recluse only staying at my room most of the time). The situation is now even getting much worse, with my family/parents problems, stress, plus now my little brother is also a depressed shut-in just like me, so my Chinese father especially, who is almost 70 years old now, is really disappointed, stressed, & perhaps even having a (severe) depression, because in his eyes, his sons are still a complete failure, and a total loser, because we are still not financially independent, still living in their houses & dependent on them for food, bills, etc etc. Im also basically jobless/unemployed, and not interested at all to run his (my fathers) businesses, which are also currently going through perhaps the most difficult time of all times (financially, I dont know & really afraid that perhaps even my parents money will run out soon or later), especially due to this COVID-19/corona pandemic situation.
I also dont know what to do. Im lost, confused, depressed, suicidal, & feel like an alien. I cant relate to most people/Human beings. Im too way out, lost in my own thoughts, idealisms, visions, & all these big/huge ideas that I basically just dont know anymore HOW/WHAT to do? Reality is depressing, very depressing, boring, limiting, & to be honest, this whole existence is just stupid, pointless, & meaningless for me now. My existential depression/crisis is getting much worse now, probably even the worst now, like Ive said above, everyday now Im even having suicidal ideations/fantasy/thoughts, and for me now, Im seriously thinking that perhaps to die (death) is better than to live (just only to survive/for survival everyday).
Long story short, my life is a complete failure. Its full of wrong decisions, (in)actions, regrets, mistakes after mistakes, that I honestly think maybe its already too late to fix everything (eg: Im losing all the good chances/opportunities, as Im getting old now). Its really ironic & tragic, because a lot of people always say that Im very talented especially in music (I used to be quite an active musician & composer/songwriter, but sadly Im still not famous & successful), smart, a deep thinker, a highly sensitive person, etc etc.
I am also an idealist, meaning that I actually have a BIG vision & idea for the future of civilization/mankind/humanity, to make a real progress & leap jump in the future. For example, I seriously think that the real, truest meaning of life is to make a HUGE progress, a sort of evolution, for the future. And for our Human species, in my opinion, the real purpose is to unlock our wildest potential: our humans Imagination. And Im talking about all those most creative, artistic, & imaginative humans minds for example like in all those most imaginative, fantasy, sci-fi movies, games, novels, comics, anime/manga, and any other most amazing work of arts. So in my opinion, our humanity/mankind/civilizations most important & biggest task is to turn all those imaginations into a reality. And thats why Im now a big/huge proponent & supporter, as well as very interested in technology such as: Virtual Reality (VR), Augmented Reality (AR), and also Artificial Intelligence (AI), and also some thinking & concepts such as Transhumanism. But then again, sadly, the problem is I dont know how to reach all those dreams & ideas of mine. And that is really depressing.
Im a Chinese-Indonesian, living in Jakarta (Indonesia). And the biggest problem is the culture/society here, also the mindset of the people here. Theyre all still mostly very conservative, traditional, & outdated mindset/perspective about life. Especially with my Asian/Chinese-Indonesian parents for example, they still only think that the only meaning of life or purpose is simply just to survive, find a good job (or business), and make money, & then get married, have kids/children, etc etc. But for me, this cant be all there is to life; Life should be so much more than that! But then, another biggest problem that I do realize and finally admit now is that, sadly, perhaps its all due to the many flaws in my personalities too: I listen too much to what other people/person say, I care too much (deeply), Im easily down & depressed, & I also lack the drive/energy/motivation (and this is why perhaps I appear to be just lazy in the eyes of most people, including in my parents eyes), especially this year, when my Existential Depression just getting so much worse to the point of even being suicidal (having suicidal thoughts/fantasy/ideations almost everyday).
Im 40 years old this year, and here I am now, in reality, Im still living with my parents, almost can be viewed as jobless/unemployed, or even a hikikomori (a shut-in recluse only staying at my room most of the time). The situation is now even getting much worse, with my family/parents problems, stress, plus now my little brother is also a depressed shut-in just like me, so my Chinese father especially, who is almost 70 years old now, is really disappointed, stressed, & perhaps even having a (severe) depression, because in his eyes, his sons are still a complete failure, and a total loser, because we are still not financially independent, still living in their houses & dependent on them for food, bills, etc etc. Im also basically jobless/unemployed, and not interested at all to run his (my fathers) businesses, which are also currently going through perhaps the most difficult time of all times (financially, I dont know & really afraid that perhaps even my parents money will run out soon or later), especially due to this COVID-19/corona pandemic situation.
I also dont know what to do. Im lost, confused, depressed, suicidal, & feel like an alien. I cant relate to most people/Human beings. Im too way out, lost in my own thoughts, idealisms, visions, & all these big/huge ideas that I basically just dont know anymore HOW/WHAT to do? Reality is depressing, very depressing, boring, limiting, & to be honest, this whole existence is just stupid, pointless, & meaningless for me now. My existential depression/crisis is getting much worse now, probably even the worst now, like Ive said above, everyday now Im even having suicidal ideations/fantasy/thoughts, and for me now, Im seriously thinking that perhaps to die (death) is better than to live (just only to survive/for survival everyday).
Comments (87)
Find a cause that's not all about you! That's the part you seem not to have figured out yet. This universe does not tap you on the shoulder and say, here it is. This is what will give you meaning and purpose in your life. Part of the adventure of life is figuring that out for yourself.
Perhaps if you set an example, your younger sibling would notice your example.
If you kill yourself then your story ends and that's a waste of an opportunity to create meaning and purpose. That's what you are capable of, that no other lifeform or existent in the universe can demonstrate in the way you/we can. At least, we have encountered no other lifeform or existent in the universe, so far, which has such an ability.
IMO, you have now posted quite a few threads on TPF which are basically you complaining about your life, and seeking some therapy from TPF members. That's fine, but you don't follow up. You get plenty of encouraging and thoughtful responses but you rarely respond to any of them.
Will you wait another 20 or 30 years, before you realise that if you can take your basic means of survival for granted then your life is what you make it!
You seem to have been able to acquire or be supplied with, food, water, shelter etc, for your almost 40 years of life so far lived.
Use what you have learned about life and about people! Find a cause! Create meaning and purpose in your life, or continue to feel like a failure.
You! are your main problem. Cultural, familial, societal, political, medical, issues can all play their part in helping or hindering your life, but,, this is not a rehearsal, this is your life, stop treating it and living it like it is a curse.
Quoting niki wonoto
Then maybe it's time for you to change.
Welcome to the club! We get new members every day. Dying is not a very good alternative - it doesn't solve any problems or make up for any harms you may have done in the past.
It seems to me you're making two fundamental mistakes - more accurately mismatches.
You dismiss your past 'failures' and 'mistakes', instead of celebrating your past lives, enjoying the memory of good times, being grateful to have escaped serious injury and cherishing the lessons you've learned. There is no wasted life - there is only unappreciated life.
An even bigger problem is: You criticize your society for being conservative, unimaginative, conformist. At the same time, you judge your own accomplishment by those same conservative, unimaginative, conformist standards. Success is fame, wealth, changing the world or having people listen to your big ideas? They can't: there is too much noise in their own heads, the same as there is in yours. A lot of the success they admire is intellectually and spiritually hollow. (Case in point: Elon Musk)
Time to climb out of that box and figure out what your true, natural shape is. Calm all that negative noise in your head. Find a focal point: one small thing that matters, that you can think about coherently, that you can affect. Whether it's inventing a new silent engine or teaching somebody to read music, or just picking up paper cup from the road - one positive thing, one project at a time. And when you get something right, give yourself credit.
As for the big ideas, write them down in the form of a story, or lots of stories. That's what most of us do.
:100: :fire:
Quoting niki wonoto
Stop being a selfish asshole. Help your father with his struggling business in any way you can help your family, help your brother, contribute to your community. Whatever good you've experienced and benefitted from, sir, you owe them all which is a debt none of us can repay but we can honor by taking care of others beginning with those closest to us.
You will have plenty of time after your parents are gone to kill yourself; until then, be of service to your family and the community inspite of your "feelings". The impact of depression "existential crisis" is limited, or managed, by exerting and exhausting oneself by taking care of others if only an extra pair of hands for your father rather than obsessively wallowing in morose self-pity. BE THE FUTURE [IDEAL] YOU IMAGINE NOW ... even if only a very small version of that future [ideal]: full of the purpose to help save the family [business]. You don't need to like it or love it, be "interested at all" or be happy about it fuck that, you're 40, sir, not 14! just obey the imperative of loving your family who clearly love you [son, brother] enough to keep sheltering, clothing and feeding you. THE BETTER WORLD YOU IMAGINE, NIKI WONOTO, BEGINS WITH YOU, HERE AND NOW, BECOMING THE BETTER SON, BETTER BROTHER, BETTER CARETAKER OF YOUR COMMUNITY.
:up:
As was the case for this thread too.
Whos doing the interpreting about this life? You.
What values, beliefs, conditioning, habits are you bringing to the table before you cast a judgment on what is a failure and what isnt? What standard are you using?
Seems to me youre stuck in the idea that you havent achieved xyz fame, fortune, or whatever your parents want from you. There are ways to be happy (healthy) apart from all that. Try meditating and exercising regularly whats there to lose?
I also think you need therapy. One striking thing is lack of connection with others, which is an extremely important component to a happy life.
Yeah, not sure if the Niki character is real, or it's just someone trying to bait folks into revealing the personal level of empathy they might generate towards the story they offer. Either just for kicks, or to find out what 'scenarios/word use/descriptions etc ' generate which emotive responses from people with an interest in philosophy. This can be a method used by nefarious individuals who want to learn how best to manipulate the emotions of others. Perhaps I am becoming too 'suspicious' of the agenda of others as I get older.
:up:
Quoting universeness
:brow: ...
Yes, this is all good.
Also, tell niki wonoto to open himself/herself to the world -- even in small ways. Make his life mean something to others, if he can't make it meaningful to himself. It's gonna be a very tiny circle -- not plastered on magazines or websites. So, one, he needs courage to face the fact that he is nothing to the world, he's a nobody; but that he can use his living daylights to help his family, or someone else. It won't be easy because the lack of motivation is the enemy. But as I just mentioned, courage is the key here. Courage to disobey his mind, and do something.
Btw, all this lifelong career is bullshit. An acquaintance got fired from his job. So, what he did immediately -- he passed the cpa exam and got his license. Then abandoned it and enrolled back to college to study physics. He's arrogant in a good way. He wanted to prove he didn't get fired because of incompetence. He wanted to prove to them that he was bored to his skull.
So anyway, niki wonoto's life can be a series of gig jobs. Forget about retirement or planning for the future. Just work to eat and pay for electricity. That's it.
:cool: :up:
I often go through whole day constantly thinking that everything I do and whole life is pointless. I lack reason to go on living, real reason that would persuade me that even though things are (now) bad, I should endure it.
I know that most people in threads say that suicide is irrational, permanent solution to temporary problem etc but why? Why or how (as a pessimist) should one live? Why not suicide (like Mainlander for example, was he just in addition to being pessimist also depressed?)?
Yes Im well aware that my suicide would cause a lot of suffering, but only reason to live is for the sake of others? My mind is convincing me everyday that staying alive is irrational, just plain wrong and only response to this life - is death. As of by living im doing the wrong thing. Is the only reason Im alive programmed fear of death?
Its been something like 8 years of living like this, trying therapy (4 different therapists) and plethora of antidepressants and nothing brought some sort of peace of mind or convince me its somewhat worth to live.
And honestly, when it comes to my life situation, its really not that bad - Im young (32), I have close family, close friends, place to live, food to eat, not worried about money, ok job, plenty of opportunities to do things It just all seems empty, futile, meaningless only at peace when I drift into sleep.
Life is pointless, meaningless whatever you wanna call it, I get that. I know that happy people dont care that it´s like that, but that seems like living in some kind of delusion, because even then life is pointless, you just dont care.
I dont know, maybe it´s just treatment resistant depression.
So I guess, if anyone went through something like this, what did you do? What should I do?
Time moves on regardless. You DO have the ability to train your brain to rethink your choice to live life as a curse. You will miss a lot of cool stuff and you will not witness any positive progress humanity might make if you are no longer here. It seems to me that your greatest enemy lies within you and it is that which you can decide to fight or succumb to. You are not the first to experience this challenge and you will certainly not be the last.
No-one can prevent you from wasting your life. Why don't you use your life to help others as much as you can, if you are simply living it as a curse anyway, and you are unable to challenge that mental state, then focus on being of service to others.
I guess what Im most struggling with is with answering to myself (ideally rationally) why not suicide (e.g. Mainlander)? What is the rational reason not to commit suicide and live, and after answering this question (and being convinced by the answer) then I can decide what to do with the remainder of my life. But without answering the first question (to be or not to be), there in any case, cant be the second one.
I tried googling for pdf's and only found fragments. But it's not too expensive a book.
And, importantly, it begins with the question of suicide as the first and only question a philosopher must answer: why bother carrying on?
If you're looking for a philosophical approach to your question, that's probably the best book I can think of.
Can you influence anything? Can you reason and can that reason manifest in cause and purpose?
If you can answer yes to these questions then your life has universal value/currency as 'you can make a difference' and 'you can cause change.' Whether or not the difference you make is for the better or for the worse, is for the judgement of others and will become part of your legacy. If you simply decide to opt out early then I am sure that a small number of people will be negatively affected but that's about it.
It seems to me that suicide is an irrational choice, given all the factors involved. I do however think suicide is a very rational choice, in the case of overwhelming suffering, that is terminal.
When I talk to people around me about these thoughts and feelings, I feel like an outsider. Nobody truly understands it, or understands why I think about life this way. I would say that almost everyone around me thinks life is worth living, enjoys it for the most part, pursues careers, travels, has children...and to me, it all seems empty and pointless.
I won't deny that I've experienced peaceful and enjoyable days in my life - the problem is when I face intense suffering, and I can't find a rational reason to keep going and endure it.
Searching forums, Quora, Reddit further confuses and depresses me - opinions about the rationality or irrationality of suicide vary, and I can't make up my own mind.
I've browsed discussions about suicide here on TPF as well, mostly discussing suicide as an irrational act, but I just don't see it that way for myself.
Why is suicide considered irrational in most cases? Why is choosing to keep on living seen as rational?
Am I just lying to myself, convincing myself that life is worth it so I won't have to go through suicide?
My mind keeps convincing me that the most rational thing one can do is, in fact, commit suicide.
Over the years, I've mostly identified with philosophical pessimism and antinatalism, which may also shape my worldview. It's just that I cannot identify with anything else. And the fact that there are pessimists who have committed suicide also makes me wonder if that is a logical conclusion to this philosophy.
I feel like I need some sort of meaning, a reason to keep going, but I can't seem to find one and instead obsess over the feeling that the only reason for this search is the fear of death and the complex act of suicide.
TL, DR - I feel that living or continuing to live is an irrational choice, that by living, I am doing something irrational. There are only two options - to live or to die - is suicide, even for 'healthy' and 'sane' people, irrational?"
You need to seek assistance from a qualified psychotherapist friend.
But talking philosophically - what are the reasons to reject promortalism? That is the question always on my mind
Quoting rossii
No-one is afraid of being dead, as when you are dead, you no longer exist, and cannot experience fear.
People fear dying and the anticipation of such, not death.
Do you mean that you are afraid of how you will die?
You were oblivious before you were born, oblivion has no time or awareness aspect.
I'm just contemplating the rationality of living.
Is it rational to live, considering that I will eventually die anyway, so why postpone it? Moreover, by dying sooner, I can potentially avoid future suffering.
As I said, I mostly identify as an antinatalist but struggle to justify why, as an antinatalist, I should go on living. This question constantly goes through my mind: if life is so bad, why endure it? If, for instance, one agrees with Benatar's antinatalism, then why is suicide not a reasonable response? Because that's what I perceive as a rational reaction to this standpoint. (links below)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10790-022-09888-4
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3184600
author argues it's better to cease to exist, and in fact committed suicide
So I don't really know how to answer this question for myself - why suicide or why not?
You will also avoid future joy and the positive difference you could potentially make in the lives of others.
Has your life always been solely about you? Have you never found common cause, or a sense of community with others?
I personally see no value at all, in antinatalism. Perhaps a TPF member such as @schopenhauer1, who is an antinatalist, could explain to you why antinatalism, does not suggest that those who are alive should commit suicide.
Quoting rossii
As a stranger to you, I have an honest answer.For what it's worth to you, I would miss your questions.
Why not explain the material and or psychological sources of your suffering.
Maybe you have chronic gastritis and your stomach is digesting itself and as a result you also have chronic insomnia, which is not unrelated to your really bad sciatic pain. The world hasn't yet invented proton pump inhibitors, so you have to rely on calcium carbonate as an antacid remedy, which is contributing to the development of kidney stones. All this is happening while your mother has sudden onset dementia and she has gone missing. This is terrible because you really do love her, and found comfort through her after your significant other committed suicide. Of course you found it impossible to keep a job with all these other stressors going on and are now worried by losing your rented living space. Everything is falling apart.
Burdened with this situation I might have committed suicide.
How awful is your own life compared to the above scenario?
And save everyone else the burden of taking care of you.
In a case of protracted terminal illness, especially when accompanied by great pain, suicide is a perfectly rational choice. Rational [non-bible-based] legal systems allow compassionate care-givers to assist suicide in those situations.
I am at an age, and in a condition, where considering the options is quite sensible, even though I'm not there yet and hope not to have to decide for a few more years.
But I think you've got it backwards. No biological organism needs to justify its existence: life just happens for no reason at all. Once you're in the world, and if you have any effect on the world, leaving it is more complicated. Others who do want to live may depend on you. You say your suicide would hurt people - that matters. You are responsible for the relationships and attachments you form.
Is that enough reason to live? Other things being equal, it's a pretty good start.
Then you could maybe find something that you can do for others. I don't know what your material situation is, but even homeless people on the very edge can help one another in some small way.
There will always be something that it is like to be, because in sleep/unconsciousness/death time and space have no breadth or duration for a subject or non-subject.
But this doesn't deny the value of annihilation in causing our troubles to cease, if we can't solve them by any other means. We are all headed for the wonderful drain, which will catapult the enigma of awareness of someone, somewhere, elsewhere.
The tree of life will blossom and fruit its strangeness again (you, I and they). There will be no memory to permit us to say it happened again.
You may become a creature who does not have the means (knowledge) to kill itself to end its own suffering. I don't want to become that turtle that got a straw stuck up its nose and have to live for years that way. That we believe that suicide is an option at all, is a strange privilege of radical self-determination. We should try to exercise that same self-determination in trying to untie the knots of our own personal suffering before we choose a final solution.
I find it amazing how often people fail to see the point of existing. So they think of suicide as an "alternative". Once a person is an adult, their existence is their responsibility. (Note I said existence, not "life", for in the latter, one could be in a coma and is the charge of a medical team).
Suppose I then ask this person who is contemplating suicide, because there's no point in his existence, to randomly kill a dog. I bet his response would be, "I can't do that. It's an innocent animal and I don't believe in cruelty to animals"! I'd say nonsense! Because he is ready to kill himself -- that is cruelty itself. He can't see the cruelty he is about to inflict to his own existence, but he can see it through the life of a dog. True story of some random person.
In your scenario there is no reason for killing the dog because it is a random act, which makes it cruel and unnecessary.
We would euthanize the dog without qualm if we knew the dog would be suffering until death. The question is whether or not the person who is seriously contemplating suicide can get outside of his/her own narrow perspective and initiate a transformation toward greater well being. Radical psychological change is possible. We should always consider trying to heal ourselves before ending it all.
There was a guy I knew who lived next door who suffered some kind of progressive neurological disease coupled with a war injury to a nerve plexus in his back. He couldn't walk on his own, was stuck in a tilted chair and couldn't sleep. The burden on his wife to take care of him probably immense. I would of liked to hear whether he thought life was worth living at that point. He lived for quite a few years after the couple moved away. He should of had recourse to the option of euthanasia if he desired it.
We're seldom privy to the details of one's suffering.
I think @rossii has a point here. Just look at it from a totally rational point of view, i.e., with no emotions, negative or positive whatsoever. Also assume that there is no afterlife, that is no consiousness, no knowledge, no memories, no emotions continue to "exist" or "survive" after death.
You say "You will also avoid future joy". Certainly. But what is the value of it if you won't take that joy with you after you die? Suppose that you die happy and in a great wellness. So what? Wouldn't that be lost together wih everything else? The only good thing in that case is that you avoid suffering. mental and/or physical, your last moments of your life. Yet, even if this wouldn't happen, suffering would end exactly as pleasure.
As for the "positive difference you could potentially make in the lives of others", it is alsmost the same thing, only that it applies to others instead of yourself. With the exception that they they wouldn't think the way I described above.
Now, there's a counter --or parallel-- logic that comes in: if it makes no difference if you live or die, why kill yourself and die sooner than the furure unavoidable, fatal conditions take place? And this, I believe, is a much "healthier" view.
I'm certainly not an antinatalist nor a suicidal case. I enioy life but I'm ready to die at any moment. I only wish to die peacefully or instantly.
Quoting Alkis Piskas
What value do you place on the notion of personal legacy Alkis?
Quoting Alkis Piskas
Do you think your life was well spent if it was spent, mostly helping others maintain, feel secure and feel valued and perhaps even progress, in their own life?
Quoting Alkis Piskas
I am glad for that.
Quoting Alkis Piskas
That's ok imo, as long as you are also ready to live, at any moment and make the most you can, of the time you have. Live life as a wonder and not as a curse.
If you mean if and how people are going to remember me, none.
Quoting universeness
I help people when and if I can and I'm happy in doing that.
Helping is a basic need in life. We see that not only in humans but in animals too. But, although in animals it is always done in a natural, instictive way, with humans it's very different. It can have a lot of faces and motives, other than being a genuine, natural and sincere action.
Quoting universeness
I live life as an eternal spiritual being.
No, for me memorialisation is a part of legacy which is of very limited significance. I am more referring to cause and effect. The status quo of human civilisation, the good and the bad aspects of it, are a composite of all the decisions made, and actions taken, by all human lives that have already been lived. Some lives have been more significant perhaps, than others, when it comes to legacy. That is of course an individual judgment call (which is where memorialisation can be most useful). This is what legacy means to me.
Rather flowery and overly dramatic sentences, such as 'standing on the shoulders of giants,' is an example, of how some humans relate to legacy (mostly in the science community).
If legacy has no meaning to an individual human then, I personally can do no more and no less, than feel pity for such people. Do you think such a 'pity' response is unwarranted or disrespectful?
Quoting Alkis Piskas
That does not answer my 'yes' or 'no' question. Answering yes or no is quite possible as an overall judgment call, regardless of the nuances you wish to also consider.
Quoting Alkis Piskas
Fine, as long as you appreciate that you have employed two words/concepts in that sentence that currently, have zero demonstrable, objective evidence of any existent, that has such properties.
I see. OK.
Certainly, some individuals have been more significant than others on specific areas.
And indeed it matters --I give you credit for bringing up this subject-- because if these persons didn't make a difference and/or important contributions to society and the humanity, and didn't leave their important legacy to us, civilizations as we know them would not even existed. No science, no techology, no art ...
But it's not only important persons who leave a legacy. Everyone does. Everyone leave traces behind him as they walk on the path of their life. They can be little or very important for the lives of others. How many times haven't you remembered wise words from your father or other close relative meny years after they passed by? These words, can make a difference for you and others, if passed to them too.
I still remember wise words of an old poor man that I knew in my youth and still have an effect on me. This man, as millions or others, could not write books to transmit their wisdom to people. But words from mouth to mouth can have a similar effect as a book.
Quoting universeness
Well, maybe. I personally wouldn't feel 'pity', or anything else for that matter.
Quoting universeness
Sorry about that.
Quoting universeness
I find this somewhat disrespectful. However, I can let it be because I believe that you don't really mean it. I know that you respect other peoples' opinion and that you just reacted, as most people in here would. (BTW, these words/concepts mean a lot to a lot--if not most-- people on the planet.)
Absafragginlootly Alkis! and this is part of the reasons why, in my opinion, @rossii, antinatalists, nihilists, continuous pessimists, killjoys, etc, etc are soooooooo wrong-headed, regarding their general opinions about the futility of living the human experience, for each individual human involved.
We are the only species we know of, who can experience thought and self-awareness, at the level of complexity, width, and depth, we do.
I could be completely wrong about that, but where is the counter-evidence?
Quoting Alkis Piskas
I agree.
Quoting Alkis Piskas
I am sure you make effort to pass his wise words on to others, for their consideration. That act in itself, gives you an important purpose and adds to the meaning and significance of your own life. This speaks very well imo, for the importance of legacy to all humans, past, present and future.
Quoting Alkis Piskas
I do mean such words Alkis, as I assign a high personal credence level, to the possibility that they are true.
There is no compelling evidence that any existent in this universe is eternal (the only suggestion I give any significant credence to at all, is that the universe may be cyclical or it may oscillate, but even that would not be proof that it is eternal) and there is no evidence of a supernatural/esoteric/ethereal/transcendent existent (just to use a few terms that may be considered synonymous with 'spiritual.') If you are using the word 'spiritual' in terms of its original meaning of 'breathing' and 'animated/dynamic,' then I agree that all humans are spiritual, (as we are all dynamic and/or are breathing) under that original non-theistic, non-theosophist meaning.
It's almost impossible not to sound disrespectful to some folk's beliefs, if your own beliefs conflict with theirs.
I do respect the opinions of others Alkis, especially honest interlocutors like yourself, but to offer you diluted opinions, for fear of making you feel that an opinion you hold, is being disrespected, would diminish my ability to try to show that I am also an honest interlocutor.
Right. I'm aware of that and that's why I mentioned it. What I didn't mention, is that I also believe you have an open mind and you are willing to see other people's views.
And thank you for your kind words.
:up:
Quoting Vera Mont
Well, the thing is, I should be having the time of my life. Compared to the lives of most people, mine would be an easier one. I have a job, enough money, friends, family, and am physically healthy...
But I struggle to see why suicide isnt the most rational thing one can do. If theres no 'objective meaning,' if theres no 'afterlife,' why endure life? Why postpone death? Even if my life was filled with endless joy until the end, why go on?
I guess I dont have a compelling reason for myself that would work and make me believe that extending my life for as long as possible is worth it.
Why not? If all you do is endure life (a rather whiny thing for someone in the conditions you describe to say), then maybe you are just a waste of oxygen, after all. But causing grief and loss and guilt to your family and friends is reprehensible. If you're planning to end your life for lack of some abstruse idea, you should at least discharge all obligations, make all required provisions and detach from all personal ties.
Having done that, consider again. Sometimes new-found freedom provides a reason for living.
The only reason I am alive now is that I don't want to hurt people around me. However, my mind keeps telling me there is no rational reason to live. I wake up in the morning, and all through the day, I feel that by living, I am doing an irrational thing. It's as if only the programmed survival drive is keeping me alive, but the whole day feels like a living hell, and the only thing bringing some peace is sleep. The articles about the rationality of suicide I posted in my response are constantly on my mind, and I can't seem to find any rational reason to stay alive.
You might benefit from a change in lifestyle. Volunteer to do something for people or animals who don't need a rational explanation for wanting to live, wanting to feel well. Or maybe in a hospice for people who are dying in spite of their best efforts not to. There is no Purpose Fairy flying around at night, dispensing reasons to live. You have to find your own.
Quoting rossii
Life and the process of living isn't rational.
Try to come to grips with existentialism. There must be something that gives you pleasure. Discover paths that lead from that activity, even if it is an activity hardly worth mentioning to others. Use your imagination to illuminate and create value with obscure discoveries. What is tiny can become big.
As time goes by, I've tried - tried to find some sort of "meaning" in this existence. To at least find a reason to go on (whether rational or irrational - or just whatever reason would work for me). However every argument I have leads towards suicide, and I can't find at least one solid argument to stay alive - as a materialist, pessimist, antinatalist...
The work of Jiwoon Hwang which I posted earlier, keeps occupying my mind - is he right? Is it always better to cease to exist?
https://unherd.com/2023/04/we-need-to-talk-about-extreme-antinatalism/
Excerpt from the above linked article:
... Jiwoon Hwang, Rafe McGregor, and Ema Sullivan-Bissett have all persuasively argued that promortalism is the core of antinatalism. ... For all three individuals, if you accept that life is suffering, it is reasonable not only to want to cease the propagation of life but to end life. Sullivan-Bissett and McGregor offer the analogy of smoking if you think smoking causes harm, you dont only think people shouldnt start smoking. You believe that people should stop if they already smoke ...
So is there really no reason for an antinatalist to live?
Quoting jgill
Sure, there are many things....but with sour taste of total meaninglessness and the thought that whatever I do is pointless - because staying alive is irrational.
But now I see what they mean when they say ignorance is bliss.
Then I am grateful for my ignorance. Or my ability to compromise - whatever.
I wish you could get over your impossible demands on life - it has so much good to offer those who accept it as it is, rather than as they imagine it should be.
Why don't you answer him @schopenhauer1?
Or again I prod my friend @Existential Hope, perhaps he is the better prospect for trying to help to bring rossil a little further out of his fogged and blocked thinking.
My own attempts in this thread seem to have been useless.
He did respond in the other thread about antinatalism:
Quoting schopenhauer1
And actually, that's how I live, or at least I've tried to achieve this mindstate. I'm already born and cannot change that fact. Also, I don't want to increase the amount of suffering (to my family, friends...) - so suicide, whether or not you're an antinanalist, is (should be?) morally wrong.
Next thing I come across an article posted in my previous post where antinatalist and 2 non-antinatalists come to the conclusion that if you see life as suffering and are an antinatalist, it is reasonable to end life.
So I'm back to my confusion about suicide.
It comes down to suffering, doesn't it? Are you really? How much? Is there really nothing you could change to reduce your suffering? Have you explored all the options? If your suffering is unbearable, death is a reasonable choice. If you have alternatives, it's not.
Fair enough. Sounds like your main battle is between you and yourself. Good luck, I hope you survive.
:up:
I dont really know. Ive tried CBT with and without meds (like 10 different meds so far), Ive seen a total of 5 psychologists and now with a 3rd psychiatrist. Ive spent endless time discussing my problems with my close family - they said that they dont understand how I can think this way, and repeating my problems seems to annoy a lot of them.
I (guess and hope) that people who dont suffer, dont want to die.
I just cant get over these ideas and opinions posted by the above mentioned authors. You don't like suffering - well then, die. It's like even when you somewhat enjoy life, but are a pessimist, the only rational thing even then is suicide. I don't know, sounds f-ed up.
And I lack some sort of reason or motivation to endure the suffering.
No, I mean is there nothing you can actually do? Just asking for help and rejecting it won't get you very far. You need to get off your ass and go out of your way to be useful. Find a flood or earthquake from which you can rescue people; find a foodbank or animal shelter where you can help somebody and stop gazing into your own bottomless belly-button.
Absafragginlootly!!! Wise up rossii!
His wife, a devout Christian, insisted on him joining her father's church (her father was pastor), or she would leave. He gritted his teeth and joined the church - and focused on acquiring the "belief" upon which the church was founded. In other words, he told himself, "You will believe what they believe".
Some would say, You can't believe something you don't believe down deep - it will always be a superficial belief. But my friend would prove them wrong.
He not only came to strongly believe the faith, he became a missionary, working with prison inmates along the Gold Coast of Africa. He spoke with President Reagan about his work.
Now, here is the truly odd part of the story. His church was protestant, and my friend wrote published articles about the dangers of Catholicism. Then, one day, he and his wife and family converted to the Catholic faith, and he became a Deacon of the Church, working with the homeless.
If you make up your mind to believe, it's not an impossibility. And it's a possible way out of your dilemma.
If this is true, all he did was change the label on his good works. It's the same god, the same basic belief, with slightly different by-laws.
As much as I can recall this is a true story, perhaps inaccurate where my memory fails. He and I were bouldering companions while I got my doctorate and he got his masters at the same institution. We would go climbing together two or three times a week around 1970. At least at that time there were some real differences between the religions. However, the Catholic Church has moderated a bit over the intervening years.
I haven't talked with him in years. But I see EWTN has a fairly recent hour long interview with him and his wife. They were Pentecostals before Catholics, I see. He worked with a Watergate conspirator turned preacher at some point.
I would be interested in your response, if I respectfully compared the story of your friend to the well known 'Stockholm syndrome.' Would you find that an insulting and wholly unfair comparison. I expect your friend would.
Sometime later he told me, "I used to worry so much about so many things and my life was meaningless, but now when a problem arises I put myself in God's Hands and let him guide me."
Stop reading the philosophical shit that pulls you in this direction. Take up a physical challenge, like hiking or climbing.
Quoting Lionino
The psych test might be a problem. But otherwise the military does provide a kind of meaningfulness.
Being 40 years would already disqualify a person in most of the world's military, but I imagine that something of that vein, even if not the military exactly, might be helpful. Perhaps the Air force is more tolerating.
We were talking about rossii, and I don't know his age. Did I miss something?
I remain conflicted regarding this. I would feel really bad if I took away or really compromised the main support someone has in their life, that has became essential to them for their very sanity. Is it fair to ever compare such with a junkie and their drug supply? You know it's bad for them but they are addicted to it. Breaking that addiction can often mean hell to pay, but a better life, eventually, if they survive the change. Deconstructed theists often state how much better their life is since they abandoned their faith.
I see @rossii as someone who has become addicted to pessimism and cannot break free at the moment. So there are comparables here imo.
As I have stated before, I very much agree with Carl Sagan's "better the hard truth, I say, than the comforting fantasy." But still it can be a tough call to challenge the veracity of the beliefs of a theist, when that theist is one who is by any normal measure of such, an otherwise, really nice person who does all they can to help others when they are able to.
I will go at horrors like Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, Ray Comfort, William Lane Craig and many other well established bullshitters, (and their copycat clones/drones,) with everything I can muster, but yeah, it's a lot tougher when it's otherwise good people in your sights. I tend to be far far more gentle in my approach, if indeed I decide to make any negative comment at all about their theism.
I stopped and no longer do. Somehow I just can't get the headline of the cited article out of my own head - Why is it always better to cease to exist.
Like there is no possible life to live.
I certainly don't want to kill myself - just trying to find a way to live my life and find my own way (which would work) of doing it.
Keep thinking "It is better to exist" You have to corral your thoughts and Zen will do the job if you persevere.
Why is suicide (assuming you're healthy) irrational? I dont know why my mind keeps thinking theres no real reason to live. Maybe it stems from my ethics? - which I found out could be considered negative utilitarianism. It also means I dont want to cause suffering to others, but I can't seem to ease my own suffering.
Ive read many discussions here and came across this response by @180 Proof:
Or is suicide just a permanent solution to a temporary problem? If yes, how so?
Is depression or pain really what leads to suicide? Does the switch really not flip itself?
Suicide is what sounds like a permenant solution to a problem.
I wouldn't say "temporary" cuz I live with depression. As in diagnosed and talked with therapists and have seen my own trends and everything like that.
Suicide is an odd thought, these days. It comes up all the time. That's part of the symptoms of depression, at least as I experience it.
It seems so reasonable, and yet....
The switch, for me, has never stopped. It's why I say I have chronic depression -- like a diabetic, I have unhealthy habits that aren't going away, and the habit-changers have yet to take away for me.
Rather, I just have had to accept that this is part of my life, that when I think that way it's not worth listening to because I have depression and sometimes the "easiest" way out is just an idle thought which I don't want to pursue, anyways. I'm just upset and uncertain about what to do.
But it took me years to get here, and I'm still improving over time and failing every day. So don't take this as a sign you can't do it.
you can, cuz if I could, anyone could.
I'm unaware of any "real reason to live" other than that which one gives oneself by taking caring of investing time in anything or anyone other than just oneself.
IME, as a fellow negative utilitarian, I've found that anticipating & preventing or reducing just one other person's suffering (or nonperson's pain) daily helps to reduce (or "ease") my own suffering daily. Once it's habitual, rossii, disutilitarianism feels like and becomes a win-win practice (i.e. virtue).
Besides, killing oneself is a gamble, not a guarantee (or even ascertainable likelihood) that not existing will be better than existing, or that death will end your suffering or despair or interminable boredom. Thus, IMO, it's an irrational act because one (non-pathologically) commits suicide out of blind hope.
I don't want to be too universal, but I'd say my own suicidal ideations -- at least from my perspective -- are the most irrational part of my thinking patterns.
It's probably why I like Camus.
@niki wonoto -- we're about the same age. And our philosophical interests are similar, in that we wonder about the existential parts of life,
But you don't respond to people so I wonder what it is you're asking after?
That's probably because you don't want to die. there is a whole world of feeling, thinking, imagining between not liking one's life the way it is and wishing to die. Death is a very real act/thing/gate/event that cannot be reversed. Everything this side of it is open to the possibility of change.
I feel a connection with 's thoughts, and I think other forum members do too -- dumb thoughts I've had before, things like that -- but was wondering if niki would be willing to say more than the same in an attempt to point out -- that's the next step!
How so? I genuinely would like to know more.
Quoting Moliere
There's a difference for me, I guess. These thoughts come across (or at least i feel like that) as the most rational ones to me.
Quoting Vera Mont
I don't want to die either. I just need a rational or any reason (maybe even irrational) to live that would really work for me.
I'm sure you'll find one if you really want to. But finding a reason to live and actually doing something something positive is a commitment. As you don't appear in any big hurry to resolve the issue, maybe you prefer to keep your options open.
We have no way of knowing what it feels like not to be alive especially, whether 'not existing' is better than existing. It's as simple as that. Besides, suppose each of us only comes into existence in order to escape, as a brief respite, from (e.g. timeless torments of)
nonexistence?
That this all started some 10 years ago, when I got a bit into philosophy. I came across antinatalism and it kinda shocked me. I mean from time to time I always had thoughts, what's it like to never be born (I know it makes no sense, but still) and there were these authors arguing it's better not to be born, like for example David Benatar.
I thought to myself, how can on one hand you claim that life is bad, not worth being born into this world etc., but on the other hand consciously make decision to stay alive in this "bad" world.
Then I said to myself, okay so I've been fucked, being born here, but there's nothing I can do about it. Killing myself won't change that fact, it will only cause pain and suffering to my friends and family.
So I became something like a personal antinatalist, have no interest in preaching antinatalism nor do I want an antinatalist outcome. About 6 months ago I came across an article I linked earlier "Better to Return Whence We Came" which comes to a conclusion that "... Benatars anti-natalism gets us to pro-mortalism..." "...Benatar's position makes ceasing to exist the best option..." "...To conclude, if Benatar is right about the human predicament, it is better for us to return whence we came...".
And I'm back to my old suicidal self - because antinatalism equals suicide? I really don't know.
From a very young age, perhaps 7 or 8, I formed the view that human life was inherently meaningless. This has rarely depressed me. Mostly I found it amusing; that all our chasing after things, our ambitions and our self-importance is really for nothing. There's a freedom in this. We don't need to prove anything to anyone and we are always good enough. I also think that being happy or finding joy is perfectly compatible with meaninglessness. Joy isn't dependent upon inherent significance, it can come to anyone for any reason. I think our experience of this has less to do with what we believe about life and more about our disposition, personality and brain chemistry.
You mentioned it earlier in the thread, and judging by what I am reading you are in need of professional guidance.
I'd steer clear of a forum like this if you are sensitive to certain philosophies. Philosophy is maybe a part of the answer, but probably not in the stage you seem to be in right now. I'd sooner view some of the people here an actual hazard to your health.
:100:
There are people who can work into their 80s. I mean -- as an employee. To them, I say, wow! They don't need to worry about retirement savings because they work full time until they keel over. They do not stress out over their job.
I am, I went through quite a few psychologists and psychiatrists and have times I don't care about some "reason to stay alive" and times I desperately need one. There are times that my mind tells me i'm doing irrational thing by staying alive, and I don't really know why. So there's my search for a reason to stay alive that would work for me. I really don't want to kill myself, don't want to hurt people around me, but still need some sort of purpose in life.
Quoting Tzeentch
Probably a good idea, I'll try to limit my time here and generally with philosophy and see.
Acknowledging I do not have access to your full story, may I suggest:
Breathe, that is really your "life." Is that failing? Eating? Being?
That other stuff you call "failure," is not your life, but the stories you and those within your circle have constructed. It is not ironic that you are talented (which anyone can readily see) and feel this way.
What I think is ironic is that you ascribe those things to your life, when your life is hopefully succeeding, assuming you are still living. Mental suffering is not a sign of life failing; but rather a sign of the need to implement changes.
So, as for those things, use your talent to revise and edit; like you might a post you are not fully satisfied with, before manifesting it to the rest of the world.
Easier said than done? Probably. Why not start by breathing. Not saying, I am breathing, not counting breaths or focusing on the breathing. These too are the story. Try being breathing. If you really do that, I think it is inevitable that your life will "see" that it carries on just fine while your stories are adjusting.
You chose a profession that is unbelievably competitive. I would suggest you try to find an unexplored niche in that community, one that fits your talents, and work hard at it, but you may have gone that direction already. Half of success is being in the right place at the right time. I have a stepson who, years ago, toured with a rock band as a singer, but found a niche in the industry as an audio engineer. He worked, later, under the stage, recording Taylor Swift's performances.
No it isnt. No more a story than being breathing, which is just a hokey phrase. Just look at whatever you feel or think, try to sustain that awareness with equanimity. Thats all.
I really dislike when people sentimentalize meditation.
Fair enough, and I accept and respect that "sentiment."
In fact, I'll accept your inference, for what it is worth, that I was intending to describe "meditation."
Okay sorry for the hostility. I feel it often leads people away from meditating rather than encourages them, thats why I get annoyed. Im sure that wasnt your intention.