Congratulations for the author of this haiku or triplet. Yes, I enjoyed it. There is a lot of imagination here. Abstract, complex and philosophical. This is a mu-kigo haiku (without a reference of season: summer, autumn, winter, spring, etc...)
god must be atheistAugust 06, 2023 at 07:26#8274910 likes
I am sorry, but I am not getting this poem. Can't follow its events. Don't know what it talks about, what it says.
Kudos to Javi who sees the emotions, the personal dynamic here. I am not good enough to see that.
I voted it's OK. I tried to set aside my dislike for attempts of haiku in English and are left with probably missing why certain choices were made. For instance "Now-here", there's "nowhere" and "now here". I don't get why this ambiguity is there as it doesn't create more meaning for me and so probably would've opted for one or the other. The exchange reminds me of two thieves about to jump a mark.
Benkei Why do you feel that way? It seems that you hate haiku poems in English. I personally think that the two haikus published in this literary activity are good.
I mean, we can see an effort from the authors.
After reading this poem again, I must repit what I posted yesterday: it is a magnificent haiku because it is "mu-kigo." Don't expect a big "understanding" on it, just let yourselves go in the perception. A haiku is more simplistic than we could imagine and this beautiful "simplicity" is reached by the author. :smile:
Brilliant! :sparkle:
Maybe I am very sensitive, but these abstract verses give me a lot of emotions. :sparkle:
OK. Alternative reading: girl turns into boy. Literally. Is there continuity in identity? Yes, forever.
Yes, I agree, a gender transition with questions and emotions. The blink of an eye is ambiguous.
Wondering if your alternative reading means a new pic, perhaps not.
I agree. It's simply a 3-liner, perhaps haiku-inspired.
Thanks to @javi2541997 for the new word 'mu-kigo' but I don't really understand what that is.
I need to read it again. With feeling... but I can't stop thinking...woe is me!
Perhaps best to read it aloud, for the sense of sound, rather than mentally...
Thanks to javi2541997 for the new word 'mu-kigo' but I don't really understand what that is.
Mu-kigo is a haiku, but without a connection with the seasons. This class of haiku just represents a moment of ordinary or the amazement of a dialogue, not necessarily connected with the nature. For example: If this would be a haiku, it would have summer related stuff such as lemonades and cicadas.
Thanks and sorry I forgot you have already explained that it is without seasons.
But you've added more about the amazement of a dialogue. I get it.
I thought there might be a difference in syllable count because there are strict rules as far as I recall.
You are very patient and kind - I appreciate your generous spirit.
I thought there might be a difference in syllable count because there are strict rules as far as I recall.
It is true that haiku always had metric rules. Yet, the modern Japanese authors and experts on haiku are agreed on the fact that those rules are not so necessary. Haikus between 13 and 22 syllables are allowed.
It is true that haiku always had metric rules. Yet, the modern Japanese authors and experts on haiku are agreed on the fact that those rules are not so necessary. Haikus between 13 and 22 syllables are allowed.
So, the rules keep changing!
When is a haiku, not a haiku?
I found this article useful, do you have a particular resource that would be helpful?
https://www.graceguts.com/essays/thirteen-ways-of-reading-haiku
It covers:
There is a band called "Nod" that has a song called "Ditty." I'm guessing this has nothing to do with that.
Well, so there is. Who knew?! From their album 'Radio Giddy Up' (1999). I tried to find the lyrics but only clicked on an audio segment that sounded...hmm...morose.
Talking about music and sound. From the article I linked to earlier:
6. Sound and rhythm
It also helps to think of sound in haikunot sound as a subject, but how the words themselves sound. Haiku can be just as lyrical as a longer poem. Try saying each poem aloud when you encounter it, or at least try hearing it in your head. Rhyme is typically too overpowering in a poem as short as haiku, but assonance, consonance, slant rhymes, and other sound techniques may enhance the poem. In Japan, poets speak of composing their haiku, not writing them, which can remind us of the lyrical elements of the poemand how it sounds. Dont let the poems sounds pass you by. And pay attention to the rhythm of each line. Are the line breaks natural and unobtrusive, or is a useful effect produced by an unexpected line break? Look for the poems music and let it sing in you.
Will have to look up: assonance, consonance, slant rhymes...
And saying the line aloud:
A nod ditty - an affirmative song? becomes 'an oddity'...
I found this article useful, do you have a particular resource that would be helpful?
I have a good explanation from a Spanish haiku poet, and it helped me a lot to understand how this works. But it is in Spanish. Yet, I am going to share the link with you anyway, and maybe Google Translate can do its magic! Para quiénes se inician en el haiku.
Jack CumminsAugust 18, 2023 at 15:05#8315840 likes
An unusual haiku. I see it as being ambiguous in meaning and I am not sure if this is intended or simply my interpretation. At face value it suggests a boy turning towards a girl wondering if she is still there. However, it could also convey a trans meaning of a girl turning into a boy, as was suggested in one other comment. This would throw an entirely different perspective with the 'nod' being about whether the 'person' behind the two personas being constant through the transition. I like the subtle ambiguity and questioning conveyed in the short form of a haiku.
Reply to Amity If I make a big commentary on this haiku, I can blur the real significance. The trick is to allow each reader to have their own perception. I must not be the candle in the night.
If I make a big commentary on this haiku, I can blur the real significance. The trick is to allow each reader to have their own perception. I must not be the candle in the night.
You are not being asked to make a big commentary.
Sharing any one of the emotions you say you feel is not being a candle in the night.
It is not to say that this is how the other person should feel. Or how the writer feels.
It simply allows for the possibility of a greater understanding; another way of looking and being.
An opening up, if you like.
But I understand your reluctance. It's not easy to be explicit.
When it comes to one's own feelings.
Perhaps it is better to be thought of as having a 'wild imagination'.
I like the subtle ambiguity and questioning conveyed in the short form of a haiku.
But did you feel anything? @javi2541997 talks abut perception and emotions.
Jack CumminsAugust 18, 2023 at 23:01#8316750 likes
Reply to Amity
Your question may be tricky because it may come down to whose perceptions and emotions? I have just read the post to which you responded by @javi2541997, in which the issue of the 'blur' arises between the writer and the reader. Some people may connect with the original state of mind of the author and others with their own individual experiences. This is not a problem unless it gets to into projection onto an unknown other and not recognising the nature of one's own lens of interpretation.
In this particular poem, the conceptual aspects seem to stand out with little clear indication of which specific perceptual view or emotions are being conveyed exactly and so much scope for subjective interpretations. The intersubjective is a complex source but it may be important to hold onto the lens of one's own primarily and acknowledging that all else may involve flights of fantasy.
I felt excitement about gender fluidity and androgyny.
OK. But to me, this still sounds detached from any primary perception @javi2541997 describes.
It's a secondary emotion, I think, at the recognisable cognitive aspects.
Thanks for joining in and giving me something to think about.
Jack CumminsAugust 23, 2023 at 16:27#8330260 likes
Reply to Amity
Knowing now that you wrote the poem I am wondering whether you did intend the poem to be about gender change? Was it meant to be ambiguous in a subtle way?
I am still not sure to what extent the emotions come across other than in terms of associations related to the concepts emerging. For example, I come to the piece with positive feelings about gender ambiguity. I love all the songs about it, including 'Lola' by the Kinks, Bowie's 'Rebel Rebel' and Blur's 'Boys and Girls'.
I wonder how people who come with negative views about gender bending and ideas such as a 'transwoman is not a real woman' would perceive the piece differently from me. I thought that it was good that the character was a girl becoming a boy. So much focus is on the opposite transition. As a child, reading The Famous Five, I always considered George to be gender dysphoric and wondered what 'they' would feel when puberty occurred as the story never developed that far. Would George have sought a referral to a gender clinic and transitioned?
Of course, gender transitions are a major theme in fiction and literature before the time of trans. There was Virginia Wolf's 'Orlando' and 'The Well of Loneliness' by Radcliffe Hall. I understand that Radcliffe Hall identified more as male than female. There is also the book by Jeffrey Eugenes, 'Middlesex', which is a transition from female to male, although it is in a story of an intersex person. There is a fair amount of fantasy literature focusing on gender ambiguity too, such as Ursula K Gunn's 'The Left Hand of Darkness'.
Congratulations for the author of this haiku or triplet. Yes, I enjoyed it. There is a lot of imagination here. Abstract, complex and philosophical. This is a mu-kigo haiku (without a reference of season: summer, autumn, winter, spring, etc...)
I never thought of it as a haiku of any kind. I wasn't following any rules. But yes, it captured a moment.
The 3 line poem ( if it can even be called that) was a direct expression - thoughts/feelings - after reading of a father's coming to terms with the transition of his daughter to a son.
It started with a simple line:
1. Girl turns to boy. @Jack Cummins points out the possible ambiguity.
For me, it can be both the physical change and the new person appraising/reflecting on the new self.
2. Now-here are you still?
The question is asked in the present moment - Now (time). And in the present place (Here).
Together they make up 'Nowhere'. No matter where you go, there you are; the continuing self.
However, there is more to identity than gender. The self, the 'I' might have hoped that transition would bring them peace. But perhaps that is 'nowhere' to be found. It is elusive. Doubts can creep in.
There is ambiguity in the meaning of 'still' - 'calm' or 'always'.
'Sempre' is Italian for: always or still. Related to aye. 'Sempre forte' is a musical term for sustained volume or tempo. In describing an individual - always strong or remains determined.
So, this is a good, basic interpretation: Quoting Benkei
OK. Alternative reading: girl turns into boy. Literally. Is there continuity in identity? Yes, forever.
What is missing is the emotional side of the daughter-turned-son. In how others deal with the change, including the father. Even if the son is still loved. Is it in the same way?
There can be a sense of loss and a grieving process.
This type of loss is an ambiguous loss, characterized by feelings of grief where the item of loss is obscure. Family members may grieve for the gendered expectations their loved one will no longer follow, whereas the transgender person themself may feel rejected by their relatives' need to grieve. Feelings that arise are described as a way of seeing the person who is transitioning as the same, but different, or both present and absent.
In Japan, poets speak of composing their haiku, not writing them, which can remind us of the lyrical elements of the poemand how it sounds. Dont let the poems sounds pass you by. And pay attention to the rhythm of each line. Are the line breaks natural and unobtrusive, or is a useful effect produced by an unexpected line break? Look for the poems music and let it sing in you.
Saying the line aloud:
A nod ditty - an affirmative song? becomes 'an oddity'...
A reminder that in music and body not everything is in perfect harmony.
The boy answers his/her question, at that moment, with a nod and blinking eye (tears?). Aye. Yes. Forever. Still. But what does the blink of an eye signify? Uncertainty?
The transition doesn't happen overnight. It takes time. Who knows what the future will bring...
This would throw an entirely different perspective with the 'nod' being about whether the 'person' behind the two personas being constant through the transition. I like the subtle ambiguity and questioning conveyed in the short form of a haiku.
Knowing now that you wrote the poem I am wondering whether you did intend the poem to be about gender change? Was it meant to be ambiguous in a subtle way.
Yes, as hopefully shown above! Our posts crossed...
Of course, gender transitions are a major theme in fiction and before the time of trans there was Virginia Wolf's 'Orlando' and 'The Well of Loneliness' by Radcliffe Hall. I understand that Radcliffe Hall identified more as male than female. There is also the book by Jeffrey Eugenes, 'Middlesex', which is a transition from female to male, although it is in an intersex person.
Interesting. Not only keenly perceptive but highly knowledgeable.
Thanks for your thoughts and questions.
Girl turns to boy
Now-here are you still?
A nod ditty blinks, for aye.
Amity explained the poem but when I read it now it feels very soft and sweet like a brother and sister cuddling up with each other and the girl asking the little boy if he is still awake as they softly dwindle to sleep in the dreamy, sleepy world they inhabit together.
However, doesn't a simplification detract from the author and their own sometimes powerful feelings?
The need to express deep issues in a few lines?
A simplification always detracts... it is never a good thing. Neither is making things too complicated. It is a thin line. For me though, it is always the story, which is, the relationship between author and reader that is the force of change. The author only exists through her story... The story twists and turns, like this one.
Girl turns to boy
Was that good for you?
Yes, sis, now go back to sleep.
This interpretation reminds me of a song... A song by my favorite artists, but it is in Dutch. Well you might decipher it, Dutch is not a mystery to you.
Reply to Tobias
Thank you.
You made similar observations about the author/reader relationship in the 'Dream of the Flood' discussion. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13187/dream-of-the-flood-by-tobias/p2
This takes us into matters of theory or opinion. Interesting to pursue but not for me, not right now.
From what I understand from @javi2541997 the simple form of a haiku is about feeling.
It is why his poem 'My dog' made such a pleasing impact on the readers. It won their hearts.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14555/my-dog-by-javi2541997
My 3-liner was more complex and ambiguous.
It was meaningful to me at the time. On a re-read now, I think it would work better as a haibun.
As far as I understand it, that means coming at the end of a short piece of prose.
Perhaps, even with an image attached?
Your thoughts @javi2541997?
The video you posted is unavailable. Try again? Which song and artist?
It was meaningful to me at the time. On a re-read now, I think it would work better as a haibun.
As far as I understand it, that means coming at the end of a short piece of prose.
As far as I understand it, that means coming at the end of a short piece of prose.
Perhaps, even with an image attached?
Your thoughts javi2541997?
If I were you, I wouldn't make deep explanations on your haiku. You just wrote what you felt. Easy. It is not your fault that some don't (or don't make an effort to) understand. I remember that when I was in a haiku practice class, one of the masters said to me that a haiku should not be "decorated". This means, putting a lot of words and phrases when it is not necessary. I think the main point for understanding haiku is understanding Japanese aesthetics previously and reading a lot of haiku poems by other authors.
Literary theory is the body of ideas and methods we use in the practical reading of literature. By literary theory we refer not to the meaning of a work of literature but to the theories that reveal what literature can mean.
Literary theory is a description of the underlying principles, one might say the tools, by which we attempt to understand literature. All literary interpretation draws on a basis in theory but can serve as a justification for very different kinds of critical activity.
It is literary theory that formulates the relationship between author and work; literary theory develops the significance of race, class, and gender for literary study, both from the standpoint of the biography of the author and an analysis of their thematic presence within texts.
Literary theory offers varying approaches for understanding the role of historical context in interpretation as well as the relevance of linguistic and unconscious elements of the text. Literary theorists trace the history and evolution of the different genresnarrative, dramatic, lyricin addition to the more recent emergence of the novel and the short story, while also investigating the importance of formal elements of literary structure.
Lastly, literary theory in recent years has sought to explain the degree to which the text is more the product of a culture than an individual author and in turn how those texts help to create the culture.
It is a beautiful song and I think you would like it, but no need to go for a treasure hunt. Quoting Amity
I meant this kind of theory. Fascinating. But not quite ready for that, not here anyway:
Ohh I certainly did not mean to go there. I liked your three lines and I loved the image it conjured for me of two children almost asleep, happy to be near each other at night when shadows play with the curtains of their room. That is all, much more feeling I cannot muster... :blush:
@Tobias
I have been considering your take on the reading of Sempre and other stories in TPF, including your own.
I've responded to you in @javi2541997's poem discussion of 'My dog' and @180 Proof's Duct Tape.
Here's a quote from: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/834170
Amity:Unlike @Tobias, who has a different reading style, I accept the author's intentions, even as I believe that there can be many interpretations of a story.
After an explanation, I would not claim that I have as much right to my feelings as the author's authentic expression. I think a poem, particularly a haiku such as yours, brings a special quality to a 'story' and should be given respect. Yours is not fiction (imagined) it is real (actual).
To continue exploring a totally different perspective, I think detracts from the author and their powerful feelings. Their need to express deep issues or emotions in a few lines.
And from Duct Tape:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/834172
***
I would have appreciated your interpretation of Sempre if made before my explanation. But now feel disappointed, it's almost unacceptable, no matter if you 'enjoyed' it.
In a sense, yours is an unloving reader-writer relationship.
Words, in literature, are not written easily or without a certain passion.
They come from a place of insight or vision. They deserve to be recognised as important.
An attitude whereby this is disregarded takes away the voice of the writer. Now undervalued.
It is about control, the imposition of dullness, a muffling. There is no shine to this negation.
Words, in literature, are not written easily or without a certain passion.
They come from a place of insight or vision. They deserve to be recognised as important.
An attitude whereby this is disregarded takes away the voice of the writer. Now undervalued.
It is about control, the imposition of dullness, a muffling. There is no shine to this negation.
I am very sorry you feel that way. That was of course not intended when I offered the feeling the poem conveyed to me personally. Exploring different interpretations for me is a sign of valuing both the story and the author who wrote a piece that deserves to be viewed from multiple perspectives. For me it is akin to the way one turns around a precious stone and watches the light fall and shimmer on its manifold facets. It is not intended as a muffling, it is intended to make it shine in different ways. It is not a negation of the author or his or her interpretation, it is a 'compliment' in the literal sense, to make it shine all the more brightly.
It had to be said. To clear the air. It is indeed how I feel. And I don't like it. I wish it weren't so.
I understand your intentions.
Even with your poetic eye, yours is a detached view, even as it appreciates.
Even as you talk about 'feeling', and describe a complimentary warmth, there is something lacking.
The stone is not polished but tarnished in a way that you seem unable to appreciate or understand.
For me it is akin to the way one turns around a precious stone
For this, you have already deemed the story/stone as precious. The action reminds me of a would-be purchaser in a jewellery store or something already possessed and valued for whatever reason.
it is always the story, which is, the relationship between author and reader that is the force of change.
What force of change? One you want to impose on the author's meaning?
To change it from what it is, to whatever you want?
It's like the actions of a thief whose greedy hands snatch and steal.
But I don't think I can make you understand, so I'll leave it here...
Dear Tobias, I know you mean no harm. Your intentions are good.
What force of change? One you want to impose on the author's meaning?
To change it from what it is, to whatever you want?
But I don't think I can make you understand, so I'll leave it here..
Projection your honor. It is not me who wants to impose. I like to explore together and see what beauty lies inside, hidden within the many layers. For me what a thing is, is manifold. What it is may change over time dependent on its relations with other things, authors yes, but readers too for instance. You feel it is your right to determine 'what it is' because you created it. You feel it is yours. When someone looks at it in wonder and says "it may also be that". You say "no! I determined it to be this!". So be it, it is yours.
I like to explore together and see what beauty lies inside, hidden within the many layers. For me what a thing is, is manifold. What it is may change over time dependent on its relations with other things, authors yes, but readers too for instance
Yes. What a thing is, is manifold. Here, you talk poetically of beauty, I talk of meaning.
And yes, it and perceptions can change over time, place and person.
You feel it is your right to determine 'what it is' because you created it. You feel it is yours. When someone looks at it in wonder and says "it may also be that". You say "no! I determined it to be this!". So be it, it is yours.
Again, rubbish! There is more to this. It relates to the problem of intention. In the context of the author or poet, the text is both subjective and objective.
The story's essence, heart and soul, is determined by the author
I am talking not only about Sempre but other creations by other authors.
I am talking not only about Sempre but other creations by other authors.
Now you have determined that you are entitled to talk for others too... Maybe other authors do not feel the same as you do. As an author I, for one, do not.
I also do not believe in one monolithic meaning to be revealed by The Author. Yes I believe in the benevolence of an aesthetic and meaningful experience shared together. That is what we may hope for. The alternatives are merely shades of grey.
Now you have determined that you are entitled to talk for others too... Maybe other authors do not feel the same as you do. As an author I, for one, do not.
No. I am doing no such thing. I feel no entitlement. Only to take the focus away from the personal.
I was relating it to other submissions here, like Duct Tape. And, of course, not all writers feel the same.
I also do not believe in one monolithic meaning to be revealed by The Author. Yes I believe in the benevolence of an aesthetic and meaningful experience shared together. That is what we may hope for. The alternatives are merely shades of grey.
I don't believe in an absolute meaning either, as I've explained before.
No black or white. It is relative.
If it means shades of grey, then so be it. But that is not the colour of meaning.
You might have missed this edit:
[...] There is more to this. It relates to the problem of intention. In the context of the author or poet, the text is both subjective and objective.
The story's essence, heart and soul, is determined by the author
In that sense, the author owns it.
You mock any revelation by The Author. As if the meaning is written on a tablet of stone.
This is not the same as an explanation or feedback from a writer on their submission.
It's been a useful discussion but one that has taken us far away from the issues of gender identity.
The start of it all. I wrote what I felt and that is where I should have left it.
No more explanations.
Comments (53)
Kudos to Javi who sees the emotions, the personal dynamic here. I am not good enough to see that.
Benkei Why do you feel that way? It seems that you hate haiku poems in English. I personally think that the two haikus published in this literary activity are good.
I mean, we can see an effort from the authors.
I agree on the "now-here" use. I'm not sure what's happening in this one to be honest. I'm probably missing it.
Brilliant! :sparkle:
Maybe I am very sensitive, but these abstract verses give me a lot of emotions. :sparkle:
Yes, I agree, a gender transition with questions and emotions. The blink of an eye is ambiguous.
Wondering if your alternative reading means a new pic, perhaps not.
Quoting Benkei
I agree. It's simply a 3-liner, perhaps haiku-inspired.
Thanks to @javi2541997 for the new word 'mu-kigo' but I don't really understand what that is.
I need to read it again. With feeling... but I can't stop thinking...woe is me!
Perhaps best to read it aloud, for the sense of sound, rather than mentally...
Mu-kigo is a haiku, but without a connection with the seasons. This class of haiku just represents a moment of ordinary or the amazement of a dialogue, not necessarily connected with the nature. For example: If this would be a haiku, it would have summer related stuff such as lemonades and cicadas.
Thanks and sorry I forgot you have already explained that it is without seasons.
But you've added more about the amazement of a dialogue. I get it.
I thought there might be a difference in syllable count because there are strict rules as far as I recall.
You are very patient and kind - I appreciate your generous spirit.
It is true that haiku always had metric rules. Yet, the modern Japanese authors and experts on haiku are agreed on the fact that those rules are not so necessary. Haikus between 13 and 22 syllables are allowed.
There is a band called "Nod" that has a song called "Ditty." I'm guessing this has nothing to do with that. Obscure.
So, the rules keep changing!
When is a haiku, not a haiku?
I found this article useful, do you have a particular resource that would be helpful?
https://www.graceguts.com/essays/thirteen-ways-of-reading-haiku
It covers:
Well, so there is. Who knew?! From their album 'Radio Giddy Up' (1999). I tried to find the lyrics but only clicked on an audio segment that sounded...hmm...morose.
Talking about music and sound. From the article I linked to earlier:
Will have to look up: assonance, consonance, slant rhymes...
And saying the line aloud:
A nod ditty - an affirmative song? becomes 'an oddity'...
I have a good explanation from a Spanish haiku poet, and it helped me a lot to understand how this works. But it is in Spanish. Yet, I am going to share the link with you anyway, and maybe Google Translate can do its magic! Para quiénes se inician en el haiku.
Yes. Thanks for sharing. When I click on the link I get the translation option.
Will have a look later...
Yours is a most sensitive, intelligent and articulate interpretation.
Quoting javi2541997
It's more than just a simple perception...
Why is it a wild imagination? What emotion do you think it is javi is imagining/perceiving?
Is there only one?
@javi2541997 can you help? Be less vague?
You are not being asked to make a big commentary.
Sharing any one of the emotions you say you feel is not being a candle in the night.
It is not to say that this is how the other person should feel. Or how the writer feels.
It simply allows for the possibility of a greater understanding; another way of looking and being.
An opening up, if you like.
But I understand your reluctance. It's not easy to be explicit.
When it comes to one's own feelings.
Perhaps it is better to be thought of as having a 'wild imagination'.
But did you feel anything? @javi2541997 talks abut perception and emotions.
Your question may be tricky because it may come down to whose perceptions and emotions? I have just read the post to which you responded by @javi2541997, in which the issue of the 'blur' arises between the writer and the reader. Some people may connect with the original state of mind of the author and others with their own individual experiences. This is not a problem unless it gets to into projection onto an unknown other and not recognising the nature of one's own lens of interpretation.
In this particular poem, the conceptual aspects seem to stand out with little clear indication of which specific perceptual view or emotions are being conveyed exactly and so much scope for subjective interpretations. The intersubjective is a complex source but it may be important to hold onto the lens of one's own primarily and acknowledging that all else may involve flights of fantasy.
Excellent points.
But the question is only tricky if you think too much about it.
Quoting Jack Cummins
I asked if YOU felt anything.
All this avoidance of a simple question. Sheesh!
I can say what I felt. I felt excitement about gender fluidity and androgyny.
OK. But to me, this still sounds detached from any primary perception @javi2541997 describes.
It's a secondary emotion, I think, at the recognisable cognitive aspects.
Thanks for joining in and giving me something to think about.
Knowing now that you wrote the poem I am wondering whether you did intend the poem to be about gender change? Was it meant to be ambiguous in a subtle way?
I am still not sure to what extent the emotions come across other than in terms of associations related to the concepts emerging. For example, I come to the piece with positive feelings about gender ambiguity. I love all the songs about it, including 'Lola' by the Kinks, Bowie's 'Rebel Rebel' and Blur's 'Boys and Girls'.
I wonder how people who come with negative views about gender bending and ideas such as a 'transwoman is not a real woman' would perceive the piece differently from me. I thought that it was good that the character was a girl becoming a boy. So much focus is on the opposite transition. As a child, reading The Famous Five, I always considered George to be gender dysphoric and wondered what 'they' would feel when puberty occurred as the story never developed that far. Would George have sought a referral to a gender clinic and transitioned?
Of course, gender transitions are a major theme in fiction and literature before the time of trans. There was Virginia Wolf's 'Orlando' and 'The Well of Loneliness' by Radcliffe Hall. I understand that Radcliffe Hall identified more as male than female. There is also the book by Jeffrey Eugenes, 'Middlesex', which is a transition from female to male, although it is in a story of an intersex person. There is a fair amount of fantasy literature focusing on gender ambiguity too, such as Ursula K Gunn's 'The Left Hand of Darkness'.
I appreciated this:
Quoting javi2541997
I never thought of it as a haiku of any kind. I wasn't following any rules. But yes, it captured a moment.
The 3 line poem ( if it can even be called that) was a direct expression - thoughts/feelings - after reading of a father's coming to terms with the transition of his daughter to a son.
It started with a simple line:
1. Girl turns to boy.
@Jack Cummins points out the possible ambiguity.
For me, it can be both the physical change and the new person appraising/reflecting on the new self.
2. Now-here are you still?
The question is asked in the present moment - Now (time). And in the present place (Here).
Together they make up 'Nowhere'. No matter where you go, there you are; the continuing self.
However, there is more to identity than gender. The self, the 'I' might have hoped that transition would bring them peace. But perhaps that is 'nowhere' to be found. It is elusive. Doubts can creep in.
There is ambiguity in the meaning of 'still' - 'calm' or 'always'.
'Sempre' is Italian for: always or still. Related to aye. 'Sempre forte' is a musical term for sustained volume or tempo. In describing an individual - always strong or remains determined.
So, this is a good, basic interpretation:
Quoting Benkei
What is missing is the emotional side of the daughter-turned-son. In how others deal with the change, including the father. Even if the son is still loved. Is it in the same way?
There can be a sense of loss and a grieving process.
Quoting Gender transition - wiki
The final line:
3. A nod ditty blinks, for aye.
For sure, it has nothing to do with:
Quoting T Clark
However, I discovered the importance of listening to the sounds of the words, the musicality:
Quoting Amity
A reminder that in music and body not everything is in perfect harmony.
The boy answers his/her question, at that moment, with a nod and blinking eye (tears?). Aye. Yes. Forever. Still. But what does the blink of an eye signify? Uncertainty?
The transition doesn't happen overnight. It takes time. Who knows what the future will bring...
Quoting Jack Cummins
Yes, You got it!
Quoting Amity
***
Quoting Jack Cummins
Yes, as hopefully shown above! Our posts crossed...
Quoting Jack Cummins
Interesting. Not only keenly perceptive but highly knowledgeable.
Thanks for your thoughts and questions.
Amity explained the poem but when I read it now it feels very soft and sweet like a brother and sister cuddling up with each other and the girl asking the little boy if he is still awake as they softly dwindle to sleep in the dreamy, sleepy world they inhabit together.
As you say, 'words are not absolute':
However, doesn't a simplification detract from the author and their own sometimes powerful feelings?
The need to express deep issues in a few lines?
From your words to another interpretation:
Girl turns to boy
Was that good for you?
Yes, sis, now go back to sleep.
A simplification always detracts... it is never a good thing. Neither is making things too complicated. It is a thin line. For me though, it is always the story, which is, the relationship between author and reader that is the force of change. The author only exists through her story... The story twists and turns, like this one.
Quoting Amity
This interpretation reminds me of a song... A song by my favorite artists, but it is in Dutch. Well you might decipher it, Dutch is not a mystery to you.
deleted since it is not available
Thank you.
You made similar observations about the author/reader relationship in the 'Dream of the Flood' discussion. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13187/dream-of-the-flood-by-tobias/p2
This takes us into matters of theory or opinion. Interesting to pursue but not for me, not right now.
From what I understand from @javi2541997 the simple form of a haiku is about feeling.
It is why his poem 'My dog' made such a pleasing impact on the readers. It won their hearts.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14555/my-dog-by-javi2541997
My 3-liner was more complex and ambiguous.
It was meaningful to me at the time. On a re-read now, I think it would work better as a haibun.
As far as I understand it, that means coming at the end of a short piece of prose.
Perhaps, even with an image attached?
Your thoughts @javi2541997?
The video you posted is unavailable. Try again? Which song and artist?
Deleted since it is not available...
The three liner you mean the first one, no?
Quoting Caldwell
I think it is the child-like and rather silvery, 'ditty blinks' that made me think of two children, maybe in their parents bed.
No need to persue theory, just feeling. The other interpretation that you provided fees a different kind of ambiguity.
Quoting Amity
Hmmm, that to me seems rather... theoretical ;)
If I were you, I wouldn't make deep explanations on your haiku. You just wrote what you felt. Easy. It is not your fault that some don't (or don't make an effort to) understand. I remember that when I was in a haiku practice class, one of the masters said to me that a haiku should not be "decorated". This means, putting a lot of words and phrases when it is not necessary. I think the main point for understanding haiku is understanding Japanese aesthetics previously and reading a lot of haiku poems by other authors.
Thank you, Javi! Your advice is sound. I'll try to heed it. But the need to explain is strong!
Still not available. Perhaps for the best...
I meant this kind of theory. Fascinating. But not quite ready for that, not here anyway:
https://iep.utm.edu/literary/
Quoting Literary theory - IEP
It is a beautiful song and I think you would like it, but no need to go for a treasure hunt. Quoting Amity
Ohh I certainly did not mean to go there. I liked your three lines and I loved the image it conjured for me of two children almost asleep, happy to be near each other at night when shadows play with the curtains of their room. That is all, much more feeling I cannot muster... :blush:
You know I love beautiful songs. So, now you are teasing by withholding even the title, artists or lyrics.
Fine. Let it be.
"Girl turns to boy
why are you hiding?
Perhaps for the best, sis"
Hah. I like it! Perhaps...
I have been considering your take on the reading of Sempre and other stories in TPF, including your own.
I've responded to you in @javi2541997's poem discussion of 'My dog' and @180 Proof's Duct Tape.
Here's a quote from: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/834170
And from Duct Tape:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/834172
***
I would have appreciated your interpretation of Sempre if made before my explanation. But now feel disappointed, it's almost unacceptable, no matter if you 'enjoyed' it.
In a sense, yours is an unloving reader-writer relationship.
Words, in literature, are not written easily or without a certain passion.
They come from a place of insight or vision. They deserve to be recognised as important.
An attitude whereby this is disregarded takes away the voice of the writer. Now undervalued.
It is about control, the imposition of dullness, a muffling. There is no shine to this negation.
I am very sorry you feel that way. That was of course not intended when I offered the feeling the poem conveyed to me personally. Exploring different interpretations for me is a sign of valuing both the story and the author who wrote a piece that deserves to be viewed from multiple perspectives. For me it is akin to the way one turns around a precious stone and watches the light fall and shimmer on its manifold facets. It is not intended as a muffling, it is intended to make it shine in different ways. It is not a negation of the author or his or her interpretation, it is a 'compliment' in the literal sense, to make it shine all the more brightly.
It had to be said. To clear the air. It is indeed how I feel. And I don't like it. I wish it weren't so.
I understand your intentions.
Even with your poetic eye, yours is a detached view, even as it appreciates.
Even as you talk about 'feeling', and describe a complimentary warmth, there is something lacking.
The stone is not polished but tarnished in a way that you seem unable to appreciate or understand.
Quoting Tobias
The author is both outwith and within the story or poem.
The twisting and turning is not that of the story itself but that of and at your hands.
Quoting Tobias
For this, you have already deemed the story/stone as precious. The action reminds me of a would-be purchaser in a jewellery store or something already possessed and valued for whatever reason.
Quoting Tobias
What force of change? One you want to impose on the author's meaning?
To change it from what it is, to whatever you want?
It's like the actions of a thief whose greedy hands snatch and steal.
But I don't think I can make you understand, so I'll leave it here...
Dear Tobias, I know you mean no harm. Your intentions are good.
Quoting Amity
Projection your honor. It is not me who wants to impose. I like to explore together and see what beauty lies inside, hidden within the many layers. For me what a thing is, is manifold. What it is may change over time dependent on its relations with other things, authors yes, but readers too for instance. You feel it is your right to determine 'what it is' because you created it. You feel it is yours. When someone looks at it in wonder and says "it may also be that". You say "no! I determined it to be this!". So be it, it is yours.
Rubbish.
Quoting Tobias
Yes. What a thing is, is manifold. Here, you talk poetically of beauty, I talk of meaning.
And yes, it and perceptions can change over time, place and person.
Quoting Tobias
Again, rubbish! There is more to this. It relates to the problem of intention. In the context of the author or poet, the text is both subjective and objective.
The story's essence, heart and soul, is determined by the author
I am talking not only about Sempre but other creations by other authors.
Now you have determined that you are entitled to talk for others too... Maybe other authors do not feel the same as you do. As an author I, for one, do not.
As is clear from the discussion on 'flood'. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13187/dream-of-the-flood-by-tobias/p1
I also do not believe in one monolithic meaning to be revealed by The Author. Yes I believe in the benevolence of an aesthetic and meaningful experience shared together. That is what we may hope for. The alternatives are merely shades of grey.
No. I am doing no such thing. I feel no entitlement. Only to take the focus away from the personal.
I was relating it to other submissions here, like Duct Tape. And, of course, not all writers feel the same.
Quoting Tobias
I don't believe in an absolute meaning either, as I've explained before.
No black or white. It is relative.
If it means shades of grey, then so be it. But that is not the colour of meaning.
You might have missed this edit:
In that sense, the author owns it.
You mock any revelation by The Author. As if the meaning is written on a tablet of stone.
This is not the same as an explanation or feedback from a writer on their submission.
It's been a useful discussion but one that has taken us far away from the issues of gender identity.
The start of it all. I wrote what I felt and that is where I should have left it.
No more explanations.