Literary writing process
This topic stems from the recently concluded literary activity.
I'm curious what people's writing process is. Mine may be unusual.
I don't have nearly the discipline to write a story linearly from beginning to end. I probably would be unable to write prior to word processors. Instead, I will think of an idea, and form the outline of the story in my head. Then, images and/or phrases will start coming to me. I will put these on paper, maybe a few or one sentence at a time, or even just a fragment. I will quickly become bored and/or stuck, and move on to other parts .
Since I know the outline, it is easy to know where each new sentence should go. In this way, bit by bit, I fill out the story, until I feel all the gaps are filled.
Then comes editing, where I read through the story multiple times, each time deleting or replacing sentences or phrases I don't like, and adding bits where I feel gaps remain. Eventually I feel like I have something I am more or less happy with, and I am "done".
How do you write?
I'm curious what people's writing process is. Mine may be unusual.
I don't have nearly the discipline to write a story linearly from beginning to end. I probably would be unable to write prior to word processors. Instead, I will think of an idea, and form the outline of the story in my head. Then, images and/or phrases will start coming to me. I will put these on paper, maybe a few or one sentence at a time, or even just a fragment. I will quickly become bored and/or stuck, and move on to other parts .
Since I know the outline, it is easy to know where each new sentence should go. In this way, bit by bit, I fill out the story, until I feel all the gaps are filled.
Then comes editing, where I read through the story multiple times, each time deleting or replacing sentences or phrases I don't like, and adding bits where I feel gaps remain. Eventually I feel like I have something I am more or less happy with, and I am "done".
How do you write?
Comments (116)
By the time I've answered those questions, I've also pretty much picked out a POV - the kind of person whose experience best conveys the theme. Then I need to make up a biography and fill in the details of that person's daily life. When I know my protagonist, I have an idea what kind of major event they need to live through and how they'll react.
After that, there is enough story to write a plot outline. I prefer to organize it chronologically, without too much complication. The last one was a bugger, since it's actually three different stories, told in the first person (which I don't usually), by three protagonists, each with their own voice, but it turned out - I had no choice! - that one of the stories is half flash-backs (which I also don't, usually).
Then I just sit down here every morning, idle away as much time as I dare, looking into a couple of forums, doing the jigsaw puzzle, checking email, arguing with the cat who lives on my laptop ... but sooner or later, I have to start doing research, inventing geography (love Google Earth!!), language, culture, names, homes, transportation, food. I have an old spiral diary that was used only sparsely by my SO, and make lots and lots of little notes in pen.
I do have Scrivener at SO's insistence, but I dislike using it. Too damn complicated.
Eventually, when I can't put it off any longer, I start writing the actual story. On Page 1 of Chapter 1. When it's done, I take a few days off to get some perspective, and then start editing the hell out of it.
Not someone with any literary writing experience to speak of myself, but I find that fascinating. I have a hard time imagining myself writing in such a way at the sentence level. I would love to learn more.
If you don't mind me asking... Do you think it is a matter of artistically focusing on crafting your language at the sentence level as an aesthetic choice, or would you describe it differently?
My writing process is based on perseverance. I am not a professional writer or novelist, but I fully recommend a lecture on "novelist as vocation" by Murakami. He expressed his ups and downs during the process of his novels. It inspired me the fact that he he puts the effort of writing everyday, and he doesn't leave his desktop until he reaches five or more pages (written in Japanese characters)
Yes, I think that's vital. Sometimes it doesn't flow - or even trickle; sometimes you have to wring out every word as from a heavy wet towel. On those bad days, the result is usually poor work, and most of it has to be replaced on the first edit. The important thing is to keep going, because when a novel is going badly, there is an almost overwhelming urge to give up; scrap it and waste those first 100 pages. For me, this low point is usually around the middle, when I need a decisive event to move the plot, and I've neglected to lead up to such an event.
I've shelved maybe half a dozen novels in the last 50 years, and I always wonder, later on, whether I should go back to them. In the doldrums after finishing one recently, with the looming alternative of washing all those windows before the fall, I've been desperately scrabbling through the pile of rejects for something to revive. Some short story ideas might be worth pulling out of the pile...
But that's easy. A heavy wet towel is full of water. It's the ones you've already twisted in a pretzel that won't give up any more.
Not for these arthritic old wrists! The wrung-out ones can go hang.
What I'm procrastination about now - Hark, is that the kettle? Does Idiot Cat want in again? I'll just check on the tomatoes in case they need watering. Right after I finish this game of Mah Jong solitaire. - is a blog entry. I started out okay last year with a few little essays of random thoughts on our own website, but nobody read them, so I quit. Now I'm supposed to resume on Goodreads, and I've got nothing.
Basically this for me. Well, often there's one (or if I'm lucky several) "perfect"/"ultimate" scene(s), idea(s), or moment(s) I visualize in my head and think "wow that'd be an awesome book/movie/what have you..." and work backwards from there.
You got to "transport" the viewer into an entirely new world... so to speak. Describe things in painfully vivid detail without becoming clumsy or too cumbersome in your wordage. As if you were describing something to a blind person, for example.
The simple sentence "John sat down at the table and had a glass of tea" could be expanded into an entire chapter with the right nuance, subtleties, visual descriptions, and inner dialog. Whether or not it would be a good idea depends on the context and intent of that particular work.
That sentence immediately intrigued me. Why a glass of tea? Is it iced? Is it hot outside? Has he been doing something strenuous? Or is he having tea the Turkish way? Maybe he's spent time there, an experience that is significant in his life? Where is the table? In his own home; which room? Is he alone or entertaining/being a guest?
That could be spun in a sinister way: he's be cautious, in case the tea is poisoned. Or a on a comic line: he's at his girlfriend's house, hoping to make a good impression on her parents but unfamiliar with their old-country customs. Pathos: he looks across the table at the person who isn't there anymore. Etc.
A story can be made out of anything. Witness a pair of teenagers meeting at the mall; a woman boarding the bus with bulky carry-bags; people standing in line at the bank or post office, impatiently waiting out a lengthy transaction... Hemingway hit that one on the nail: Write one true sentence.
Thanks for the insight into your novel writing process. It sounds like a truly forbidding amount of work... before you even get to page one!
And then, you are implying you start from chapter 1, page 1, and end on the last sentence? That is astounding to me, I couldn't do that even for a short story. Much respect!
No, its really not a choice at all! Its the only way I know how to write. I simply don't have the focus or patience to do it any other way. Just write the little bits and pieces, from wherever in the story, onto the page, as they come.
Even though it is by necessity, I do think there are advantages to this process. You are always writing the parts you are actually into, at any given point. Less time on the difficult parts, more enjoyment. I think struggle generally reflects poorly in the quality of output.
If only I had a flow button, writing would be a real pleasure. As it is, flow is just so elusive.
Remember though, the reader isn't a blind person. They are actively confabulating all the background details as you write. Truly, they are co-creators, not passive recipients. You are not painting a picture for them, rather you are more a conductor for the symphony of their imagination.
:cheer: Ive been preaching this here for years.
I will need to read something by him, since my story received several comparisons. Never heard of him before then!
Quoting javi2541997
Formidable, I assume Japanese is much more concise in terms of character count.
I will always recommend his works. I understand that he is not everyone's cup of tea, but even those accept that he is an exceptional novelist.
By a somewhat tortuous route.
I have to proceed logically and chronologically, or I get confused. Even so, it's hard to keep track of consistency in names, places, sequence of events. The first draft is far from complete. Even on the second or third edit, I keep an 'outtakes' file, where I put questionable paragraphs on probation. Some may go into a different chapter, some will be put back modified, some scrapped altogether. I lost a quite good observation that way: I repeated it in a later chapter, so I took out both, not sure where it should go and forgot about it on final edit.
Oh, Calliope, I hope not!
I've been asking questions about 'The Writing Process' for as long as I can remember.
Until now, not many on TPF have been forthcoming, even in the fiction feedback. So very happy to see the various and open responses.
Interesting to read about the importance of an outline, either in the mind or on paper.
But before that the necessary idea or the questions.
The spark of inspiration, where it comes from and where will it lead...
Then how much of an outline needs to be filled, organised; chronologically or otherwise:
With questions already answered à la Vera .
Or as a very skinny skeleton, the flesh added to head, feet - wherever, whenever:
Quoting hypericin
It fascinates me how images and phrases start coming then...fragments at a time.
Quoting javi2541997
Perseverance is clearly important for a polished end-product.
It's the method, style or techniques that intrigue me.
There are so many books on the subject...I think I have them all!
Now, of course, there is YouTube. My latest find, after buying Updike's 'Problems and Other Stories':
Quoting Outlander
That makes sense to me. Sometimes a story can take place in one space. Like a bar!
The characters, appearance and their interactions can be visualised. The dialogue, their shared concerns, especially if it's a local. As in so many English soap operas.
It's the description part that's difficult, see underlined, how to finesse?
Quoting hypericin
I had fun with my first TPF story 'Red, White and Blue'. I had an 'interesting' time filling blank A4 sheets with pencil scribbles, hard to decipher once the word vomit was over. The ideas that burst from my brain were circled, underlined, numbered, asterisked and arrowed. There has to be a better way.
I had no plan and no great intentions before I started - things just came to me.
Difficult to pin down.
My story was difficult to follow, for some. For others, they enjoyed the ride even if they didn't understand.
I think it is important that a story is enjoyed AND understood. Otherwise, what's the point?
Quoting hypericin
I agree that gaps don't always need to be filled. But I've tried to answer your concerns:
Not sure if my responses have helped or hindered!?
After my feedback, I struggled to explain my 'process'.
I have asked for help, here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/832938
Any advice gratefully received...
I am afraid that I don't have wonderful advice because I struggle with the process. However, I have got to the point, where based on feedback, I think that outlines and plotting are essential. They are probably where I end up falling down because my stories end up meandering up in no man's land.
I do read books on writing but there are just so many that it would be possible to spend all one's time reading them and not writing at all. One of my favourites is Stephen King's 'On Writing' and I see him as a wonderful storyteller. I am not sure if he outlines but for most of us it's probably essential. I can remember making clear plans for essays at school and how it helped so much. Personally, I have probably gone too far in therapeutic writing, especially based on Julia Cameron's idea of 'morning pages' and realise that the craft of story itself is essential. For some, it may come easily, just like cooking or sport, but I find it difficult and know that I need to work on it. I am not sure that this post will be helpful but sometimes it can be reassuring to hear the voices of those who are struggling rather than simply those of the 'successful'.
Good question. Let me think...
I think of perseverance as a concept like resilience or determination. The ability to overcome obstacles to reach a goal, no matter how many there are.
Perhaps, yes, this involves skill and techniques but overall I think perseverance is more of a positive attitude. Depending on what the goal is. Bank robbers might persevere if first attempts fail!
A method is how you reach that goal. It's a process to be followed to complete any given task.
Your thoughts?
It is most helpful and indeed reassuring!
Quoting Jack Cummins
I think I'm coming to that point of view too!
Quoting Jack Cummins
Yes, I have his book. I'll look it out to see what he says about outlines. Thanks for the reminder.
Quoting Jack Cummins
Yes, I struggled with the very idea of making an outline but eventually got there in my OU studies.
It helped enormously!
Quoting Jack Cummins
Well, only you know when enough is enough. I haven't tried that kind of writing. Sounds helpful.
Quoting Jack Cummins
Ah yes. Cooking is a good example. The ingredients, methods and right tools to make a tasty dish.
Some have an inborn talent, they don't need a recipe or outline. Others like me have to work at it...with or without a recipe. A picture can help. What does a good story look like.
So, yes Quoting Tom Storm
I did and do. But not always as a potential writer. I've also started to listen to audio books.
The musicality, tone and clarity of a good narrator can bring so much pleasure and inspire.
Quoting Tom Storm
Yes, I think so. It helps to have friends and critical readers. As in TPF!
I understand that daily practice would be helpful, if not essential when writing a novel:
Quoting Vera Mont
But that is not everyone's goal and it's not always possible for those would-be writers who have other priorities. Only the most determined and they already have that value or motivation to persevere in them. Success at all costs.
Quoting javi2541997
Are you sure? Isn't that just as much about confidence?
What is it that you are persevering with? Writing.
And that already includes some degree of skill and capacity...technique if you will. A way of carrying out the task. All part and parcel.
I think more than confidence, it is finishing what it has started.
Quoting Amity
I agree, and I couldn't have said it better. This is what is expected from a qualified person. Don't you think?
I think we agree on the importance of writing, process, technique and perseverance. All good!
Quoting javi2541997
I persevere with my argument:
There are ways, and then there are ways...
Where there's a will, there's a way. [=if you have the desire and determination to do something, you can find a method for accomplishing it]
Perseverance and Method are different.
Method is a procedure. Steps to follow. Processing the different ways of doing something. This can be taught. Nurture. This is what I want to learn. The How to...
Perseverance is persistence and effort in the process, despite setbacks.
A way of being or attitude. Personal attribute. Nature.
Can be developed by a person with self-knowledge.
Knowing what is stopping the process. The psychological element.
Talking with others can help but can it be 'taught' as a method? Hmm.
Perhaps...this is what or how I need to be.
I think I've changed my mind...again...
Both are important to produce a prize-winning cake. We agree.
@Jack Cummins your thoughts?
Apologies, if this perseverance of mine is a distraction from the main thread topic.
Back to the question of:
Quoting hypericin
With little to no perseverance. I'm bad!
I'm sort of the same. I have key scenes I want to write and so I do those and then fill them in. Mostly I've done short fiction but I have two larger projects that require this.
One is about humanity slowly, one by one, waking up in an infinite house. Think about vacant homes or office buildings when they are being shown for sale. There is furniture, but no clothes in the wardrobes. There is food that magically appears in cupboards and fridges, else how would my people survive, but only when they are unwatched.
So you have some continuous stairwells that go up for thousands of miles, large gymnasiums miles across, but mostly just a maze of small regular sized rooms. Then the story is about one guy from our world waking up there at some earlier point and also the people who are descended from human beings who showed up there centuries ago and how their culture and knowledge has changed over all this time.
The other is a fantasy book where the different schools of magic roughly map to philosophical positions. There are Platonic mages that manipulate pure forms, Aristotleans who can enchant things by messing with their essences, cause thorns to sprout from the ground, etc. Pythagoreans who attack using beams of pure light and geometries of energy, and the most powerful form, entropic energy, which works around the concept of information. Entropic magic is the most powerful but do too much and your brain gets damaged and you're ruined, while entropic mages have a habit of bursting into flames (which won't burn them if they keep control) while casting their magics.
This second one I have to write more out of order because it has a less defined scope and thus I need to figure out what can be fit in one book. I know I want a good duel scene. I want to introduce higher magic, based on abstraction, versus lower magic, based on drawing on the power of Jungian archetype creatures from the "Inside." Basically, the magic schools are roughly divided by intuition/emotion/Inside and abstraction/knowledge/Above, but they begin to run into each other for the most powerful sorcerers.
Perseverance is not about success for me. It's a life-vest: I have to get something written every day, good, bad or lackluster - and it may well end up deleted on the next good day - simply in order to keep doing it. Just so I won't throw the malformed, stillborn monster against a wall* (You can't do that on a computer. I quite miss the dark satisfaction of a sheaf of despised paper splatting against the wall and flying all over the room.) One novel took over 35 years to write, I gave up on it so many times, for years on end. My SO nagged me into reviving it after retirement, and I think it turned out better than it would have the first time.
The other thing is, the last two novels were complicated SF; three very different settings and a huge cast of characters with different time-keeping and seasons; different cultures, funny names, so they absolutely required planning. I'm a plodder - that's what works for me. My SO is a seat-of-the-pantser. He doesn't outline anything: he has an idea, makes up a protagonist to carry it. From the initial situation, he just keeps asking, "What needs to happen next?" and writes it down. He doesn't have patience for polishing, either, for taking out redundancy, varying sentence structure, adding descriptive touches. I spend a lot of time on that - maybe waste a lot of time; I don't know whether it accomplishes much, but it's another opportunity to introduce mistakes.
I wouldn't recommend either method to other people, because everyone has to find out what works for them. But I can give one tiny piece of general advice: It you want to improve your description, read Bradbury. When I was 19, my first chief tech gave me an old paperback copy of Dandelion Wine. It was a revelation worthy of a fanfare by the celestial brass. I still consider him the grand master of evocative description.
PS - * I'm not really that volatile, as a rule. I've actually only ever thrown a very few things against walls, none of them animate.
That sounds really intriguing! I would love to read it when it's done.
Your sharing - telling it like it is, with humour - means so much to me and others, Vera.
So, perseverance keeps you afloat - to prevent drowning in an ocean of complications and dead bodies.
I understand your dislike of zombies.
From what you say, sometimes it's good to give one particular project a rest. Persevering in that case would not necessarily have produced the best result. So, there's a time and a place for persisting.
The brain can work on it in the background until the moon and stars align.
Quoting Vera Mont
I love the fact that you have different ways of creating. I understand the need for the careful planning of a novel. Is your approach to short stories the same? I imagine so. I read that you might 'build a poem' next time around. Structure and rules of engagement necessary for a firm foundation.
Good to know about but I'm not very good at following rules. What needs to come out, comes out.
As in my 3-liner 'Sempre'. A simple, even if ambiguous, expression of thoughts and emotion.
Perhaps not even poetry.
I enjoy the sense and quality of haiku but counting syllables...nah! Then again, the challenge is part of the moment, I suppose. And once you have the knack...
Quoting Vera Mont
I agree. Writing is personal. For the experienced and successful, regular habits will no doubt have formed. They know what works to achieve whatever aim or goal. Some might keep the method but change the style. It's fascinating.
Thanks for your advice. How could I resist after this:
Quoting Vera Mont
I had a look on Amazon. Then purchased from its subsidiary, AbeBooks.
* About volatility. I'm not gonna tell you what I threw against a wall. It was meant for hubby. I was young. We divorced.
So, like, he failed the frog-to-prince test? Quoting Amity
It wasn't quite like that. I put it aside when I got my heart broken, and then again when I contracted to a reciprocal renovation project with the present Mr. Mont. That involved a mother, two children, two full-time jobs and five incompatible pets. Then we built a house (If you think hasty marriage engenders object-hurling occasions, wait till you live on a construction site for two years!), then we imported a family, then we went to LA for six months. I tried to pick up that novel at least half a dozen times, but something always came along to halt progress. When life finally settled down, I started a new one - which didn't turn out well, and immediately another, that I think did. Then we had other projects. Life gets complicated sometimes.
And I've never had an overwhelming compulsion. More artisan than artist, me. Yes, I do consider the shape and pace of a short story, but they're more spontaneous. There isn't so much to remember over so long a stretch of time. I do look at the construction of poems, too. I appreciate Yeats and Eliot, but also admire the classical forms. You know, Lawrence, Frost, Dickinson and the even older guys. Worse, I'm kind of a stickler for cadence, aptness of language, consistency in an extended metaphor and that sort of thing. I don't write many poems anymore; it doesn't gush as it did in adolescence when I was given to passions and blank verse; it rarely even drips (amply compensated-for by other orifices). I suppose if I submitted a sonnet or ballad, I'd be booed off the thread.
My most abiding Bradbury book is Death Is a Lonely Business; I reared it every couple of years.
Talking about work when not working is fun. I guess that's why I watch Grand Designs.
I'm curious that you don't use a computer. I would find chaotic writing styles like ours very hard to manage with pen and paper.
Quoting Amity
I think this is a mental hurdle you have to get over. It is not actually essential that you be understood.
Your brain made a thing and the reader's brain mingled with it, played with it, that's the sexy part.
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Hey, these both sound pretty awesome, tbh. You should participate in the next "contest".
Quoting Tom Storm
Quoting Vera Mont
This sounds awfully enticing. I'm starting to read again, after a huge dry spell. Because of @Baden's mention I'm reading Appointment in Samarra, great, great book, makes The Great Gatsby look like a limp dick. I'm putting Dandelion Wine next in queue.
Oh, but I was using my laptop. Until I couldn't type fast enough to hold the ideas!
I didn't know how to keep track of tumbling thoughts. So, I grabbed whatever I could...
Quoting hypericin
You are right, it is not essential that a story, or novel, is fully understood. The joy of reading (and discussion) is about how interpretations vary. Even on a re-read years later.
I've also realised that an author's explanation for a story or novel is not always available or necessary.
Why then, do TPF storytellers attempt such?
An author's helter-skelter, labyrinthine sentence can be appreciated aesthetically. In and of itself.
But as a puzzle, or a prompt to deeper thought, the reader's eye can be opened to aspects not previously considered. The shared or different life experiences; their own psychology or philosophy.
Like you, I am grateful for recommendations made along the way,
I'm inspired to read novels/short stories for an increased understanding. Models for how to write.
I suppose that's 'reading as a writer'. A phrase I never understood until now.
Since my first bout of Covid-19 in early 2021, I have, for all practical purposes, forgotten how to write 'fiction'. I've had to relearn how to enter that headspace and stay there long enough either to put words to paper or rewrite what I've already written. I used to be a fastidious plotter and outliner from first paragraph to the last. I couldn't start without knowing the ending first. Since my second bout in late 2021,"long covid" manifests in me as chronic fatigue and persistent brain fog.
I no longer read for pleasure or write confidently with ease. I have had to learn how to find (or receive) images which intrigue and then improvise with or around them, either singly or together, until something like a narrative takes shape. Then I have to follow that 'idea' blindly, ignoring cliches and my expections, groping for discoveries and perplexities, the more amusing the better. I don't know what I'm doing anymore with blank page; even less so when it comes to the real craft of rewriting.
Perserverence has been mentioned yes, that's all I've got now, mule-stubborness to finish. I rely on perserverence more now than I ever have ... to write less and less it seems. All the stories I've written since 2021, both submitted here and not, are still only first / rough drafts which need to be reworked and extended and polished and, in some instances, followed-up with companion pieces or inserted as chapters in unwritten novel(la)s. Even though I know what needs to be done, I can't do it, not yet at least. For the time being then, I perservere in conjuring up my occasional scribbles in order to have some skin-in-the-game during the round robin of readings and appreciating by TPF's community of writers.
"Thank you!"
Quoting 180 Proof
That is quite the challenge.
To re-learn ways of being or doing following 2 bouts of covid, now long-covid.
The adjustments required. Take time, patience and perseverance.
The passion for writing, though, never seems to diminish, even if not as confident as before.
I wonder just how different your stories are, following your new way.
I wonder how you learn to receive images. Or is it that your mind is more open to them?
Duct Tape was written quickly, under time pressure, and yet it is one of the most thought-provoking and pleasurable stories. You only have to look at the lively discussion it engendered.
You are marvellous. Keep on going on!
Quoting Amity
Thanks so much for encouraging me. :flower: :hearts:
Ditto. :sparkle:
(Oh, shit, that sounds pathetic! And false. I have a perfectly comfortable life, in a nice country, with a nice old spouse and lots of uncouth cats. Just miss social gatherings is all.)
Not at all too kind. It needs to be said.
I have an ongoing Love/Hate relationship with TPF.
This kind of thing brings light to the darker moments. It's why I return. Thanks to all!
I translated Kant in my language (it's going to be published next month), I have translated pieces from Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Tolstoy. I translated myself also :( I have written opinions, reports, papers, essays, thesis, poems, aphorisms, literary reviews, two novels, two plays and many short stories ugh All these in three languages, not in one lol
Till now I have been praised for my novels mostly. What interests me is a main motive, the rest is just music for me. Hence, when I work for the government I like music that relaxes me (Jazz, Reggae, Classical), but when I write I listen only to music with tension (Rock, House, some Classical also).
I don't like novelists who try to philosophize and educate you, with very few exceptions (like Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Orwell). That's for the simple reason that I don't like to confuse genres, though many philosophers do that often (Plato and Nietzsche for example).
Either you are a good artist, or you are a good philosopher. If you are both: you better try your hand in two different genres, instead of having professors praise your artworks for philosophical and psychological "achievements" bla bla bla Tolstoy, like a philosopher (in his work What is Art, let's say) was a total failure, but like a writer (let's say in his novella The Death of Ivan Illych) he is unbeatable.
Today, you have these writers who try to educate you though they lack the credentials to do so. I am sure that 90% of writers I have personally met will fail in a Logic Exam, but that does not stop them from being "smart asses". This is a reason, also, why I do not bother to join forums for writers (but I do like forums for philosophers/thinkers). Just because they can imagine (like Hesiod, Ezekiel, and co did three millennia ago), they think that they are entitled to educate you and sell to you all that trendy/liberal/libertine/creepy/scary crap that comes in abundance nowadays.... since that's the trend and that makes a writer popular to a multicultural/global audience.
To conclude, do not bother to try what other writers advise you. Most of them are products of the times we are living in (they are more mortal than my pets, since I am sure that my pets will be remembered by me and my kids :)
Find a beautiful story to tell. If it is not beautiful by itself, you better read some good philosopher instead of wasting your time with writing. Put some tension and acts, cause only those things will make you a writer (I don't remember any novelist who became immortal through nice talking, but only those who put some great acts and great/believable characters in their novels). If your piece has no tension, no beauty, no acting, no humanism, you better try some other genre.... like philosophy let's say. Even if you fail with philosophy, you at least will know that you learned many things. But with literature, you may live in total ignorance and stupidity and at the same time cultivate all kinds of illusions in your brain lol
I repeat it, though I love arts, I have come to the conclusion that philosophy can enlighten me much more. Literature has more audience, philosophy has more depth. Good luck to you!
That doesn't stop anyone from doing anything, because hardly anyone takes Logic Exams - or even cares what Logic Exams are for. However, many people who do know quite a lot about some particular subject are also competent writers, and some quite successfully combine entertaining narrative with informative content. From light reading, such as mystery novels, I have gained some superficial knowledge on a great many topics I would not otherwise investigate.
I appreciate that some literature is art, but have no problem acknowledging its other roles as self-discovery, entertainment, insight into other cultures and mind-sets, and just plain recording of experience and history.
Besides, aren't all philosophers and would-be philosophers also smart-asses?
Go and try some forum with creative writers and you will see a different culture from this forum ;) I have been lucky to get to know (virtually and in person) both creative writers and philosophy professors/students and have come up with the conclusion that the second are a much better company.
Why is that so?
When I lacked any knowledge of philosophy, I tended to believe that philosophy and creative writing have many things in common. When I started studying philosophy (in my thirties), I came to see that creative writing and philosophy have very few things in common.
Though many writers tend to philosophize and psychologize, they do it poorly. They always miss many details, or if they go to the details they become bad writers... since the purpose of creative writing is to beautify things, not to analyze and defend this or that proposition.
Insofar as by their nature creative writing and philosophizing are two different processes, then very different is the writer from the philosopher. The writer starts always with some "finding", the philosopher starts with a question. The writer has always an "answer", the philosopher has a puzzle. Since the first is in the mood of "I know already", and the second in the mood of "I am not sure", then the writer tends to be egoistical, self-assured, eccentric, etc., the second diligent, hard working, honest, very focused, very detailed, etc.
In short, I think Plato was right in assuming that writers are gifted people (I say: with niceties, good memory, good vocabulary and imagination), but if you are looking for really intelligent people you better look for a profession where honesty, focusing and diligence are a must. If writers have an answer (due the nature of their profession) on anything, they tend to be witty and egoistical, but not honest, self-sacrificing, etc.
I am not sure what kind of intelligence it takes to be a writer nowadays. Some people have the gift to amaze and surprise you all the time and because of that they think that they are entitled to "educating" and "revolutionizing" you.
Anyway, I may get many things wrong, but we live in times when people will keep writing even if they have nothing to say (nothing new, nothing their own). It is hard to see that in philosophy. If a philosopher has said something and there's nothing for him to ad, then he will stop writing philosophy. With creative writers it doesn't work that way. That's the reason, I guess, why there is so much hallucinatory crap in the book stores :)
As do we all!
Following a recommendation, I bought this:
Reading Like a Writer: A Guide for People Who Love Books and for Those Who Want to Write Them
- Francine Prose
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_Like_a_Writer
It's so well-structured and a joy to read. Each of the 11 chapters covers a specific element.
Words, sentences, paragraphs, narration, character, dialogue, etc.
What is fantastic is that she includes relevant and loved examples from literature.
Prose talks to you knowledgeably and conversationally.
She carries you along with her enthusiasm and humour. There are no hard-and-fast rules.
I had to laugh at her final inclusion of 'Books to Be Read Immediately'!
Only 5 pages and alphabetically arranged by the surname of the author.
Chapter One - Close Reading.
Starts with the question: Can creative writing be taught?
The way she answers this...is funny and insightful.
Wonderful name! I'm probably too old to benefit; doubt I'll embark on another big project. Anyway, my old Kindle won't hold a charge anymore, so I have to borrow his later model. I just downloaded two Bradbury novels, sequels to my favourite Death Is a Lonely Business. The few available paper copies were too expensive. I should probably replace the Kindle, but I so much prefer physical books, I hardly ever use it.
Thanks for mentioning this. On my purchase / borrow list. :up:
Quoting Vera Mont
:up:
On order!
I have a Kindle for all the usual reasons but rarely use it.
Recently, I've been ordering used, good hardbacks from abe.
This one is a pure delight to hold, read, put down, savour and reflect on.
Now on Ch7: Dialogue.
It's beautiful.
Hope you enjoy!
Now I'll have to! Watch it being sold out everywhere because of your endorsement.
Quoting Benkei
God on you! Can we borrow it sometime?
Also, I hope God is a woman because I don't swing the other way.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/matronize
Just can't get enough of new words:
https://www.etymonline.com/word/matroclinous
Can you fit than in anywhere? Are you patroclinous or...?
Quoting Benkei
What book is this?
Well, there goes Benkei's $0.5 per annum royalties!
Oh, Crikey, Crivvens Almighty! What have I done?!
You could probably have written this book, Vera! But from your own readings, experience and perspicacious perspective...
Sorry, Benky! But thanks for the inspiration!
No seriously, the dictionary recognised, matronise, matron etc. but somehow turns up empty on matronisingly. I ended up hating the sound of it so opted for a more descriptive approach.
Ah. So, they still see things in terms of mummy and daddy? Some things never change...
Quoting Benkei
Yes, it sounds ridiculous but it does provoke thought. How did the patron or matron aspect turn to a more negative connotation?
How long a description? The arrogant and condescending female of the species pets the little, big man.
Sounds like you're having fun!
Isn't everyone?
But yes, I have made some efforts at philosophizing and educating through narrative.
Quoting Amity
Patron, when he was a lord bestowing largesse on pet performers, architects and painters, so long as they pleased him. Matron, when the child turned 18, got married or started working.
"She pats my cheek the way a grandmother would pat her favourite, but decidedly stupidest, grandchild."
Brilliant! So grandmatronisingly, then.
While we're at it.
[b]Do you have an outline of your novel, or any short story you can share?
Same question to those who have written formal Outlines.[/b]
I'd love to see an example, if willing to share, thanks.
Sounds great but a total cop out! That's a synopsis or summary - it whets the appetite.
All it gives me is the tone, genre, and theme of the work. Fascinating as that is. It's a tease.
I get it if you don't have an outline, or one you don't want to share. Somebody might nick your idea!
But for anything else you've written, like...hmmm...a zombie story...
Did you have a structure where the plot was broken down into its various parts?
Some kind of a map from start to end...even if there were changes en route.
Read and tremble:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2326630/Notes-diagrams-famous-authors-including-J-K-Rowling-Sylvia-Plath-planned-novels.html
.
Example:
- tour on island - islands, big delta fishing village? Go up to women's huts? with?
interplanting skree with onesta berry - holds soil
blue hornet - smaller than sap, burrows, pollinates skree - have [s]Ionel[/s] Inel explain
legumes & howa (turnip), chat (like carrot), rice (sehas) own island, reeds? bamboo?
stay overnight? priest (75 = 110?) [s]explain[/s] discuss in priv conference or over dinner? in hall? house? ship?
old folks home - skree get samples
Oola 12
Malaca Strait > Pian Island > Muala Pian
night crossing, party on deck,
barge returns, will change to oceanliner - where was it fitted out?? passengers?
^ Kakin, Yaban company, captain, mixed crew
Planter in charge - Brezzinton - trying to make changes
dead overseer Swar is Abur's death had 2 illegitimate sons - lawsuit?
wife Sheree - converts, direct to priest
13
discoveries missing people dates; bad planters; unhappy troops
[s]This year Messenger[/s] [s]6[/s] 8 - Sunrise, 6 - Faithful ? came back 4 [s]- Pathfinder -[/s] Messenger? - work out sched!! How many troops, girls? rough crossing
skree harvest starts
prov. admin cent - hort labs (Manila) [s]Iniol[/s] [s]liliam[/s] Inilloi - hilltop
big port, garison - commander? 2nd Gamal - later
magistrate ? Overseer - luxury & pool
Year of Ahn 662
Pathfinder - 652
Faithful - 654 (returned, back on Earth
Sunrise - 656
Messenger- 658
Valiant - 660
Steadfast - 662
Like that, but not so neat; largely ignoring lines and writing diagonally, because the notebook is on the phone stand beside the desk.
Edit: actually, my main problem is I don't think I have a consistent writing style yet. Even within a couple of pages and I'm wondering whether it has charm and work, just how Mozart works with his stitching of tiny pays, or if it's just annoying.
Thank you for a fascinating peek into your writing world.
I turned to Goodreads to work out which novel...so many! After a quick glance, the sequel to the Ozimord Project looks promising...
Your outline surprised me. I had imagined it fuller and more organised using computer software.
Quoting Benkei
Isn't that not so much a problem as an exciting challenge as to how flexible styles can be?
Look at @hypericin - his style varies according to the weather but I think his method stays the same?
Others take time to find a style that suits and they settle into it.
Me? I've got no idea. Not sure I'd want to even have a label applied, 'comic fantasist'?!
What you've written sounds great to me! But is there not a place you can go for 'proper' feedback?
Anyway - outta here for a wee while. Enjoy!
Hah! The OG foisted a copy of Scrivener on me: it has all the sophisticated computery stuff. And I dislike it intensely. I kept losing notes and searching frantically through all its 'nasty little pocketses'* for the name of a spaceship or town. He practically insisted that I collate the alternating chapters from the three parallel stories in Scrivener, and that was a nightmare.
See, I started out with a yellow pad and pen during lulls at work, and that's still my most comfortable medium. But I do admit not missing my first portable typewriter. I got a big newspaper office discard after that - a really great machine, except for changing the ribbon.
(* Smeagol)
After watching it, I suddenly reminded of an excellent footage where Kurosawa talks about the skill that every writer should have: patience.
If you already didn't see it, I fully recommend you to do so.
That's what I was told, over and over. I found it nightmarish.
Exactly. I couldn't have said it better. I personally think that everything about Kurosawa was ahead of his time: screen, aesthetics, photographs, scenario, actors, screenwriting, etc. What a talent, and most importantly, a humbled wise person.
By the spring of 1998, the director was largely confined to bed in his home at Setagaya in Tokyo, spending his time listening to music and watching television. On September 6, 1998, Kurosawa passed away after a stroke. He was 88. The Life of Akira Kurosawa Part 12: Death and posthumous works (1998)
As long its not too violent, I'll do it.
I finally put a sample chapter up, if you or anyone else is interested.
https://medium.com/@tkbrown413/a-fantasy-novel-based-on-real-world-esoteric-systems-the-darkness-above-the-light-sample-chapter-53da1fe4de48
Put it up where?
lol, it's only accessible through the Emerald Tablet and ascending up the Sepirot! Or... I've forgotten to include the link and just added it. :cool:
That's supposed to be a first draft?? I'm hard put to get something that polished with three edits. Very sophisticated writing.
The subject leaves me lukewarm, I'm afraid and there is too much explanation at the beginning. I think it might work better interspersed with some dialogue and activity, or even a description of the surroundings.
One tiny note: to call a man Frau might be misleading.
Anyway, it's your tale, Count, so tell it and I/we will read on as long as you hold us. Btw, I've tried writing in the fantasy (folklorish) genre a couple of years back for TPF's first short story contest. My story is linked below, a rough draft followed by charitable comments some of which, no doubt, will help me whenever I come back to it either to expand and polish the story or develop it as a chapter in a longer piece or as an 'episode' for an anthology of linked stories which explore the same setting (world). An experiment more than anything else, not my usual style; I enjoyed it though the jury (in my head) is still out on the tale's merits. I wonder what a fantasist like you might make of my attempt ...
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11526/good-stew-by-180-proof/p1
@Vera Mont
I read your post and then re-read 'Good Stew'. It was worth it; interesting to revisit old comments.
I look forward to reading the views of @Count Timothy von Icarus and @Vera Mont and anyone else new to the story.
Your responses to the readers' questions were excellent, clear and again thought-provoking:
Quoting Good Stew - 180 Proof
***
I contrasted the high risks or stakes in your story, re truth and knowledge, with those in TPF.
What it means for an individual's sense of wellbeing if their beliefs are overturned. Personal, psychological and political. It might not seem 'risky' simply to talk or question but a lot depends on the intentions/aims of other participants.
The short stories and fiction can raise philosophical questions in a more creative, perhaps acceptable way - all the better to digest 'A Good Stew'!
***
I also put forward a suggestion re The Symposium in contrast to The Lounge ( where this discussion has been moved between my readings and response!) I had to search for it...
[Plato's Symposium seems to be about a convivial meeting with each participant giving a speech.
Taking turns. Perhaps a desire for a sense of unity, even as they differ.
...an interesting way forward in TPF's very own 'Symposium'?
To include 'Speeches' about e.g. Eros or eros of. [specific topic]
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/585578
***
Quoting 180 Proof
I think it would work really well as an 'episode' in a novel of linked short stories.
I've developed a love of that form. Perhaps because it's easier to read!
Is that nit-picking?
The mythology is interesting, though I don't quite follow all of it. There is some wonderful description and imagery.
I can definitely see this in a larger context - I suppose the novel would have to be about the adventures of the heroine and her mercenary, so this would be at the beginning.
No. The lack of names made it difficult to refer to the characters. It's why I gave them titles of my own!
Thanks for the feedback. That's exactly the stuff I like to hear! That's why it's rough, not so much not having been edited for grammar, but I'm thinking I may need to break up the exposition. The main critique I've always heard of Bakker is that there is too much exposition up front. Same for Game of Thrones, I found the whole first book to be a bit sloggy. But I can turn the exposition into dialogue easy enough. I've been rereading the Black Company because I think Cook does a good job at this, even though his story and setting are much less complex.
It's the second chapter, (really third, since I do interludes between each chapter), because it's a bit more abstract, less "grabby." But it's the one chapter where magic is front and center because the Refuge is the one place in the world where its common. I think I said the entire HRE stand-in has about 8 million people and can muster 1,600 sorcerers of varying ability in an earlier chapter, so fairly uncommon elsewhere, 0.02% or so.
In any event, I'm sort of paused on this project because I started another one about people living for generations in an infinite house (labyrinth of rooms in every direction), and searching for a way out, interspersed with some modern story lines. It allows for a lot more dialogue and humor, less "genre fiction," and so I figured it likely has the wider appeal.
That's an intriguing concept. A little spooky, too. Could make a really good story, but I - and I assume many other readers - would be sore vext if it had no resolution.
Right, and it doesn't have a good solution I can think of. That's part of the problem. I tried to lighten it by making the modern plotline about budget disinfo merchants full of levity, a bit absurd, but I don't know if it works. It makes for stuff that is more fun to write at times though.
[/quote]
That bides well.... given some previous framework and scene-setting. I do like the language and the insight. Even to the shades of Ayn Rand.
I agree. We (TPF) benefit from both discussions and creative expressions.
:cool: Yes, I'd prefer a picaresque novel to a strictly progressive, bildungsroman-like form. Besides, I still have no plan for exactly where or how the characters go on.
Quoting Vera Mont
:blush: Thanks. I inagine there are other versions or interpretations of "the mythology" which probably have implications for other events or folk beliefs elsewhere in the setting. I still haven't decided whether or not the Old Man is a reliable narrator.
If it's an anthology instead of a novel, then "the adventures" (or "episodes") need not follow a linear plotline in sequential order. Maybe (a tighter) "Good Stew" is a flashback of the heroine years later during a lull in one of her "adventures" (as a frame). I'd have to write a few more, I think, before the shape of an overall tale metaplot? will suggest its structure.
Sure, but that's okay. I prefer characters who are essentially passive (or absent) to be named but two conversing protagonists, especially ones who are also quite familiar with one another, to be unnamed unless one of them calls the other by name (e.g. for emphasis). A (Beckettian) quirk I'm guilty of in other stories of mine.
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
:up: I'm also a Glen Cook fan. If you've read him, what do you think of Joe Ambercrombie? His hardboiled, gritty fantasy seems like a blend of Black Company & Game of Thrones.
That makes me squirm a bit. I like to be able to follow a story without benefit of electrode implants. I don't mind the odd flashback or memory or dream, but when a story goes flashing back and forth and sideways, just as with multiply split screens, I get psychological epileptic fits and leave the room. It all depends on how it's done I guess.
Agreed.
A Good Stew.
Quoting 180 Proof
'A Good Stew' of minds, memories, music and magic - to name just a few ingredients.
The sense of serendipity and things coming together for rare "Aha!" moments.
Like I had last night when I finished the audio version of 'Dandelion Wine' - Ray Bradbury.
Thanks to @Vera Mont for the recommendation! I'll go on to read the hard-back treasure...
The penultimate chapter or 'episode' in this novel of short stories is about a right old stew!
I won't spoil it but imagine some well-intentioned meddlesome tidy and organised Aunt who visits Grandma's house. Her efforts to clean up will improve an already brilliant feast enjoyed by all.
Or so she thinks...
Aunt Rose with her need to house-keep, to control the ingredients of 'happiness'. The food was inedible, the family and boarders went to bed cold and hungry. The intuitive warmth of creativity was missing.
[ An aside: it reminded me a little of TPF Categories - a place for everything and everything in its place.
Here's the list and descriptions of each:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/all
Where would you go to find a discussion like this? Or to combine creative ideas?
The Lounge - 'Hang out, blether, talk about kittens'?! I don't think so!
Far better, in my opinion, The Symposium with its more inspiring, already lively, creative sections. But do all the sections there go out 'live' to front page? Well, the Shoutbox does...]
That's all I want to say for now. Gotta fly....
Hey! What you got against kittens? I have some pick-your-own on the back porch. Free, but wear work gloves.
I have sometimes wondered where a thread went when it was moved to the Lounge, but now, I automatically look in every day. For one thing, there is more likely to be humour.
That made me think of data mining.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282070655_A_Case_for_Using_Online_Discussion_Forums_in_Critical_Psychological_Research
TPF a rich seam.
(I like Beryl.)
On a related topic, one of the books I edited was a collaborative effort at fiction. It started with an opening paragraph and the challenge to write the next section. We had a blast and it turned out a not bad story. There were four or five main contributors and of course we asked each of them for permission before tampering with the narrative and got their approval of the finished text. We continued to correspond with one of those people in the real world for several years after the site went down.
You're too damn cryptic to be any use at all. They'll have to edit you out.
:smirk:
Perfect specimens. Pure gold. Makes me feel all...'zoomy'! Metazoomical.
***
Apologies to @hypericin who started this thread a month ago. [*]
Quoting Vera Mont
The timing of the move (3 days ago) is curious.
We've perhaps become too 'chatty' and veered too much off-topic?
Is this why an excellent topic is moved to The Lounge?
@hypericin Were you informed of the change of venue and the reasons?
[*]
Literary Writing Process
Quoting hypericin
Quoting Amity
This question works for both literary and philosophical 'pieces'.
The way we think. Our different styles of communication to attract and keep a reader's attention.
To seduce and escape to other possible worlds.
I'm intrigued by how our minds forage and forge connections, creatively and analytically.
Is it down to personality? Or what?
Quoting Amity
To start with, I suspect it comes down to each writer's practiced instincts for exploring ambiguity and for clarifying in spite of ambiguity, respectively.
Quoting 180 Proof
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m47A0AmqxQE
The way we think - foraging and and forging connection. What is that down to?
Quoting 180 Proof
'Practiced instincts' - I think that phrase says it all. It combines the discipline and the 'letting go' aspects.
I have rebelled against regular practice as something only 'serious' writers would do. I've always felt my writing to be spontaneous - having to be in the right frame of mind. Wrong thinking!
Having read some more on the subject, I find myself now agreeing with:
Quoting javi2541997
Quoting Vera Mont
Quoting Vera Mont
The flow seems to come and go. But it is more likely to arise if you already have the practice and experience of regular writing. No matter whether it's perfect - it's vital. A physical and mental necessity.
Quoting Vera Mont
Again, thanks for the recommendation. So poetic and descriptive...
Recently, I discovered his 'Zen in the Art of Writing - Essays on Creativity'.
From there, 'Becoming a Writer' - Dorothea Brande. Here in Ch 5 and 6, I am following some advice to 'harness the unconscious' and 'writing on schedule'. Fascinating. Discipline and letting go.
Thanks. The interview is fascinating. We can almost see or feel the thinking process.
I am not sure I agree with everything Iris says but it is an authentic attempt to answer questions.
In black and white, the world has moved on a little... here, it goes slow and careful...
Quoting 180 Proof
Yes. But first you have to be aware and notice them.
Also any assumptions and bias we carry around. Examining our selves and questioning any fixed ideas. Like whot I had!
Well said, Amity. I have been stuck in my imaginative process. I have been writing some stuff, but I didn't like it at all. This doesn't mean that I erased what I wrote, because it helps me to see what I am missing. I agree with @Vera Mont, flow comes and goes, and sometimes it takes a lot to catch it again.
Yet, I love to write. Whenever I finish a paragraph, although it can be mediocre, I feel good with myself.
And isn't that what it's all about - the Love.
It's actually the final word in Bradbury's chapter - 'Zen in the Art of Writing'.
Your mind is a good one and you share your thoughts generously. Thank you.
I can only fully appreciate your kindness, Amity. Your mind and thoughts are very comfortable, and you always try to make us feel better with ourselves. I like to see that you are still flowing around TPF - although the literary contest finished a month ago - because you often leave TPF for months... :confused:
'Flowing around TPF' is at times a real joy and valuable. Other times not so much - but I wouldn't be without it - and like many others return after a break. To learn and discuss topics of interest, like this one.
I was going to write: 'Absence makes the heart grow fonder' and then wondered as to its origin.
And then, how true is it?
The exchange here is quite fascinating, ranging from poems, songs, novels, Shakespeare, letters of Benjamin Franklin, and so on...
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/139744/who-is-the-author-of-absence-makes-the-heart-grow-fonder
Yes the late poet and critic (and friend in my bohemian 20s) Hayden Carruth had once described jazz that way. My daily habit of four-plus decades has also been, as @Vera Mont says, "my life-vest" despite drowning once or thrice.
Quoting Amity
Did you listen to all five parts (video clips) of the interview? I've always admired her thinking and her essays but not so much her fiction even though Iris Murdoch was a fine novelist.