List of Definitions (An Exercise)

Mikie August 29, 2023 at 22:00 6925 views 52 comments
Below is a list of words often invoked in philosophy. I would like to see how each member defines each one, on the spot. Doesn’t have to be elaborate. Just what comes to mind. Take the attitude that there’s a fairly perceptive young person asking you. How would you answer?

My guess is that this brief exercise will give a better overview of a person’s perspective than merely adhering to, or assigning, a label or school (realist, materialist, dualist, utilitarian, etc).

Yes, I realize there are separate threads for almost every one of these concepts, and that Socrates asked similar questions 2,500 years ago. I don’t care. Besides, how can we call ourselves thinkers or even students of philosophy if we can’t at least give provisional answers when asked these basic questions spontaneously?

I open this to everyone. Take a stab at it— I did so myself and it’s difficult, but fun. (I also consider there to be no wrong answers in this context.)

I’m interested to read the answers, assuming anyone participates.

——————————

What is…

[b]Being

Awareness

Consciousness

Thinking

Time

Sensation

Perception

Mind

Body

Good

Happiness

Justice

Truth[/b]

———————

Comments (52)

Moliere August 29, 2023 at 22:14 #834515
Fun idea.

Quoting Mikie
What is…

Being


Good question.

Awareness


I presume it's the same for most humans in this respect: the focus of our consciousness -- not in a collective sense, but rather I think most humans have an individual focus on their consciousness, whereas you can still feel a pain even if you're not focused on it.


Consciousness


The phenomenal "feeliness" of the world. The taste of pizza isn't just salty-spicy-sweet, but the particular combination of your bodily make-up and its bodily make-up in conjunction -- if you want a cognitive answer -- or what it tastes like, if you don't.


Thinking


I'm not sure.


Time


Not sure.


Sensation


I think this one can't have an answer. The other topics are more general than "sensation".


Perception


Discrimination.


Mind

Body

Good


All uncertain for me.


Happiness

Justice


Interlinked. Happiness is ataraxia, and ataraxia is only achievable by living in a just society.


Truth


...is embedded in language.
Wayfarer August 29, 2023 at 22:29 #834519
Reply to Mikie

Being
Many would say the cardinal attribute of whatever can be said to exist, but as I have argued in many a thread, 'being' carries the connotation of sentient existence, i.e. existence as a being (e.g. 'human being'). Accordingly I hold that 'being' 'existence' and 'reality' are not strictly synonymous.
Awareness
The most basic form of consciousness, also the aspect of consciousness that is prior to apperception, integration and rationalisation.
Consciousness
Best thought of in the Eastern sense of 'citta', a Sansrit word that means both 'mind' and 'heart'; that which is aware or conscious; but never in itself an object, always as the subject
Thinking
Conscious deliberation and also the spontaneous activity of consciousness
Time
Awareness of the duration between events or occurences
Sensation
That which the nervous and cognitive systems transmit
Perception
Cognition and re-cognition of the contents of sensation
Mind
Consciousness
Body
Like a VR headset used to navigate terrestrial environments
Good
One half of a pair
Happiness
Absence of pain, absence of conflict, absence of fear, awareness of harmony.
Justice
Ideally, the resolution of conflict and the establishment of:
Truth
That which is; satya; veritas.

Banno August 29, 2023 at 22:48 #834524
Reply to Mikie My answer to all: There's a way of understanding each, that is not given by setting out their definitions in words but seen in the way they are used.

But further, any such string of words will be inadequate, failing to account for all uses.
Mikie August 30, 2023 at 02:43 #834552
Quoting Moliere
Perception

Discrimination.


I like this. A good synonym. It assumes a kind of interpreting. :up:

Reply to Wayfarer

Interesting.

I realize you and me and “Being” have a long history haha— so I won’t go there.

Quoting Banno
There's a way of understanding each, that is not given by setting out their definitions in words but seen in the way they are used.


Okay…so how do you use them?

Quoting Banno
But further, any such string of words will be inadequate, failing to account for all uses.


True. Still, I’m sure you use these words like anyone else, and usually mean something by them. So that’s what I was asking for. If a kid would ask for your own take on these terms, would the answer be “it depends on use” or would you have some (albeit provisional) answer?

Banno August 30, 2023 at 02:57 #834553
Quoting Mikie
If a kid would ask for your own take on these terms, would the answer be “it depends on use” or would you have some (albeit provisional) answer?

I'd use the term, and encourage them to use it, so the child can see how it is used.

Quoting Mikie
so how do you use them?

Early and often.

But yep, unhelpful. I'll leave my comments there.
javi2541997 August 30, 2023 at 04:46 #834578
Quoting Banno
I'd use the term, and encourage them to use it, so the child can see how it is used.


How would you use those terms if you do not know their definition? I think it is not possible to encourage them if you do not understand it, and to understand those terms you need previously a basic definition of each.

For example: let's say I have to write an essay on art. But how, if I do not know the definitions of "perception" or "aesthetics" (for example) previously?

Maybe I am understanding you wrongly. But it seems that you see the words just as random elements and avoiding their syntax functionality.
Banno August 30, 2023 at 05:18 #834586
Reply to javi2541997
Definitions are a post hoc invention.



jorndoe August 30, 2023 at 05:38 #834588
Can you define a word without just using more words...?
You can find "stampede" and "elephant" in a dictionary, which, in turn, uses more words.
Yet, there are no stampeding elephants in the dictionary.
Dictionaries (and their definitions) have circularities.
Board games on the other hand... :)

180 Proof August 30, 2023 at 05:42 #834589
Reply to jorndoe :up: A glossary is both more and less than a dictionary, no?

Reply to Banno Yeah, well ... :smirk:

Quoting Mikie
What is…

I prefer I use the term ...

Being

to denote (i) a possible object, (ii) a possible version of the world or (iii) actuality (i.e. every possible version of the world).

Awareness

to denote attention to circumstances.

Consciousness

to denote being aware of awareness (i.e. attending to a state of attention and/or an act of attending); also, synonymous with mind (i.e. what sufficiently complex nervous systems do – minding).

Thinking

to denote reflecting on – examining, questioning – conventions or norms, givens, assumptions, biases, desires, habits, gaps in experience or knowledge or understanding, unknown unknowns, ... and prerequisites of thinking.

Time

to denote the metric of asymmetric, sequential changes (i.e. events); also, experiential disappearing.

Sensation

to denote bodily stimulation constitutive of perception.

Perception

to denote environmental stimulation constitutive of consciousness.

Mind

(See consciousness above.)

Body

to denote a dynamic kinetic system causally-related to other dynamic kinetic systems that rarely is also a 'conscious being' (i.e. embodied mind).

Good

to denote a zero-degree, or maximum reduction, of harm and dysfunction.

Happiness

to denote a zero-degree, or maximum reduction, of needs and/or fear.

Justice

to denote a zero-degree, or maximum reduction, of civil/social unfairness, harm and dysfunction.

Truth

to denote a zero-degree, or maximum reduction, of undecidability, error and nonsense.
Amity August 30, 2023 at 07:36 #834596
Reply to Mikie
Definitive list of definitions.

Of course, there is no such thing.
To write a definitive list of words used in philosophy. Funny. But nevertheless a seductive aspiration.

I agree with:
Quoting Banno
My answer to all: There's a way of understanding each, that is not given by setting out their definitions in words but seen in the way they are used.
But further, any such string of words will be inadequate, failing to account for all uses.


Nevertheless, I started to answer (with whatever came to mind, as requested) and got as far as this...
Being - existing ( anything that is); living ( rel. to human, animal, spirit, - real or imagined)
Awareness- how we understand ourselves to be, when awake. Different levels of perception, according to our senses.
Consciousness - a/a and being responsive; not unconscious.
Thinking - considering and imagining all kinds of everything.
Time - what we have too little of. Or too much of. To be and do all that we need/want to achieve for wellbeingness.


Off the cuff nonsense. I caught myself and I re-read the OP:
Quoting Mikie
Take the attitude that there’s a fairly perceptive young person asking you. How would you answer?


If this life student is asking questions about such things, then they already have a degree of knowledge.

Quoting Mikie
Socrates asked similar questions 2,500 years ago.


He asked questions of students. He made them think things through for themselves.
Starting with how much did they know or think they know...



Mikie August 30, 2023 at 11:58 #834626
Quoting Amity
Definitive list of definitions.

Of course, there is no such thing.


Of course. The title is tongue-in-cheek.

Quoting Amity
Off the cuff nonsense.


Your answers didn’t seem nonsensical to me.

Quoting Amity
If this life student is asking questions about such things, then they already have a degree of knowledge.


Sure. So what?

Quoting Amity
He asked questions of students. He made them think things through for themselves.


Yes, and usually triggered by the meaning of x. Whether justice or piety or virtue or whatever.
Mikie August 30, 2023 at 11:58 #834627
Reply to 180 Proof

Quoting 180 Proof
I prefer I use the term ...


Fair enough.

Interesting list!
Judaka August 30, 2023 at 12:40 #834639
Quoting Banno
My answer to all: There's a way of understanding each, that is not given by setting out their definitions in words but seen in the way they are used.

But further, any such string of words will be inadequate, failing to account for all uses.


:up:
Mikie August 30, 2023 at 13:49 #834666
Quoting Amity
I agree with


Reply to Judaka

Quoting Banno
I'd use the term, and encourage them to use it, so the child can see how it is used.


All kind of sounds like a cop out to me.

“What’s the aorta Dad?”
“Let me use the word so you can see how it’s used.”

Explaining what we mean, or think a word means, doesn’t require universal application or ultimate truth.

If the current fashionable state of philosophy is to answer with a slogan like “it’s how it’s used,” I think we’re in real trouble.

Amity August 30, 2023 at 13:52 #834667
Quoting Mikie
“What’s the aorta Dad?”

The first response:
Why do you want to know?


Mikie August 30, 2023 at 13:54 #834669
Quoting Amity
“What’s the aorta Dad?”
— Mikie
The first response:
Why do you want to know?


That’s what your response would be?

Okay: “Curiosity.”
Amity August 30, 2023 at 14:02 #834673
Quoting Mikie
If this life student is asking questions about such things, then they already have a degree of knowledge.
— Amity

Sure. So what?


It's the basis or grounding of more questions in a dialogue. Why do you ask? What do you think it is?

Quoting Mikie
He asked questions of students. He made them think things through for themselves.
— Amity

Yes, and usually triggered by the meaning of x. Whether justice or piety or virtue or whatever.


It's an idea of 'justice' related to action or behaviour and consequences.
Depending on context or circumstance.
In the case of a questioning child, then it would probably be framed as 'fairness'.



Amity August 30, 2023 at 14:05 #834675
Quoting Mikie
“Curiosity.”


Desire to know or discover.
Mikie August 30, 2023 at 14:10 #834676
Quoting Amity
Yes, and usually triggered by the meaning of x. Whether justice or piety or virtue or whatever.
— Mikie

It's an idea of 'justice' related to action or behaviour.


Ideas have meaning. The dialogues pretty quickly transition into what is meant.

Quoting Amity
“Curiosity.”
— Mikie

Desire to know or discover.


Sure— but I was responding to your question of “why do you want to know”. If the kid said “curiosity,” then we’d either say we have no idea what an aorta is, or what it means as a word, or try our best to describe or define it in some way.

I don’t think using a kind of Rogerian technique in these circumstances is appropriate, however well-meaning the intention.
Mikie August 30, 2023 at 14:17 #834679
This surprised me a little so far:

Quoting 180 Proof
Mind
(See consciousness above.)


Quoting Wayfarer
Mind
Consciousness


Wasn’t expecting too much agreement.
frank August 30, 2023 at 14:25 #834683
Quoting Banno
Definitions are a post hoc invention.


On the one hand, the OP is saying: "give me the primary use for this word," but then everybody can specify their own. There's a little bit of a contradiction there.
unenlightened August 30, 2023 at 14:42 #834688
What is…

Being
Yes. Being is what is. Being is, and nothing happens.
Awareness
...is the relation of responsibility. X is aware of y, iff x is able to respond to y.
Consciousness
... is the relation of responsibility to awareness.
Thinking
... is the digital processing function of mind.
Time
the dimension in which the nothing happens.
Sensation
... is that aspect of y of which x is aware.
Perception
... is a reification of a process, that is a reification of the happening of nothing.
Mind
... is the nothing.
Body
is some particular being considered as if separate.
Good
... is mind and world in the relation of alignment or mutual reflection.
Happiness
... is the responsive mind as distinct from the thinking mind.
Justice
... is social happiness.
Truth
... is the expression of the proper functioning of thought.


What is interesting me about this exercise is to arrive at definitions that are both faithful to (at least some of) the ways in which they are used in philosophy, and also relate to each other in ways that are somewhat significant of the individual's philosophy. That is, I hope the above tells the careful reader something about myself, or at least about the way I think that I think.
Amity August 30, 2023 at 15:17 #834697
Quoting Mikie
Sure— but I was responding to your question of “why do you want to know”. If the kid said “curiosity,” then we’d either say we have no idea what an aorta is, or what it means as a word, or try our best to describe or define it in some way.


The child/teenager might have turned it around and asked, "Why do you want to know?"
The parent could answer with: It would help me better answer your question if I knew what prompted it.

Quoting Mikie
I don’t think using a kind of Rogerian technique

What's a 'Rogerian technique'?

Quoting Mikie
Ideas have meaning.

Yes. And any meaning can be hidden from view or understanding.

Quoting Mikie
The dialogues pretty quickly transition into what is meant.


Sure - but some dialogues stem from an experience, belief or understanding of moral issues.
As in the child/teenager scenario. What experience has made them curious about an aorta?

In Plato's Dialogues, is Socrates searching for a definitive definition of a concept?
Or the reality behind the word?


Amity August 30, 2023 at 15:22 #834702
Quoting unenlightened
What is interesting me about this exercise is to arrive at definitions that are both faithful to (at least some of) the ways in which they are used in philosophy, and also relate to each other in ways that are somewhat significant of the individual's philosophy.


Yes, I think that is the idea behind the OP:

Quoting Mikie
My guess is that this brief exercise will give a better overview of a person’s perspective than merely adhering to, or assigning, a label or school (realist, materialist, dualist, utilitarian, etc).


I don't assign myself a label but others might. 'Rogerian'?

Quoting unenlightened
I hope the above tells the careful reader something about myself, or at least about the way I think that I think.


Really? One-line responses? Hmmm....


unenlightened August 30, 2023 at 15:37 #834707
Quoting Amity
I hope the above tells the careful reader something about myself, or at least about the way I think that I think.
— unenlightened

Really? One-line responses? Hmmm....


Yup. Stupid, keeping it simple! :yikes: And look, it works!
Mikie August 30, 2023 at 15:38 #834709
Quoting unenlightened
That is, I hope the above tells the careful reader something about myself, or at least about the way I think that I think.


I think it does. Still digesting some of those…

Quoting Amity
In Plato's Dialogues, is Socrates searching for a definitive definition of a concept?
Or the reality behind the word?


Neither.

In any case, I think my title has led some to believe I’m really asking that this list be definitive. I think I’ll remove that from the title, as it’s misleading.

Mikie August 30, 2023 at 15:41 #834711
Quoting Amity
'Rogerian'?


My fault. It’s my psychology background— Carl Rogers was a therapist, and the technique I was referring to was one in which the therapist provides no answers, but creates a conducive atmosphere where the patient discovers the answers for himself/herself.

Mikie August 30, 2023 at 15:44 #834712
Maybe this thread has had the unintended consequence of separating those brave enough to take a stab at it and those finding excuses not to. :joke:
Amity August 30, 2023 at 16:08 #834718
Quoting unenlightened
Stupid, keeping it simple!


Simple and stupid? Now I know...thanks. I always wondered.

Quoting Mikie
In Plato's Dialogues, is Socrates searching for a definitive definition of a concept?
Or the reality behind the word?
— Amity

Neither.


So, what is it that Plato is attempting to do?

Quoting Mikie
I don’t think using a kind of Rogerian technique in these circumstances is appropriate, however well-meaning the intention.
[...]
Carl Rogers was a therapist, and the technique I was referring to was one in which the therapist provides no answers, but creates a conducive atmosphere where the patient discovers the answers for himself/herself.


So, you thought that I was attempting to situate the questioning as a kind of psychological therapy?
Does having a psychology background hinder or help you in forum interactions? Both/Neither/Other.
Are you always trying to figure people out, and affix labels, according to some little test or word exercise?
Quoting Mikie
the unintended consequence of separating those brave enough to take a stab at it and those finding excuses not to.













Mikie August 30, 2023 at 16:16 #834721
Quoting Amity
So, you thought that I was attempting to situate the questioning as a kind of psychological therapy?


No, but the aim (provide no answers but assist others in discovering their own) seemed similar.

Quoting Amity
Does having a psychology background hinder or help you in forum interactions? Both/Neither/Other.


Both.

Quoting Amity
Are you always trying to figure people out, according to some little test?


:lol: I suppose so. But more like getting to know them better. And I don’t consider this a “test,” really — although I can see how it would be viewed that way. I’m in no position to grade anyone’s work.

fdrake August 30, 2023 at 16:20 #834723
Quoting Mikie
Being


...

Awareness


A being is aware of X if the following hold: X is causally related to the being, X constrains the being's possible states and the being has a process of representing X's causal and informational relationship to itself. A process of that being is a means of being aware if that process' normal functioning establishes that the being is aware of some X - it can have more than one role. A being's awareness is the sum total of its means of being aware.

Consciousness


A being which can represent its own awareness is conscious.

Time


A time is process whose events index another process's, treated solely as the derived index.

Sensation


Perception


Thinking


The internal state of an aware being is the aggregate of the conditions which minimally determine its awareness at a given time point. The internal state is modular, in the sense that it arises from the inter-relation of different modalities (sense organs eg) and processes (inference, head tilting, chewing). The internal state is hierarchical, in the sense that those inter-relations, modalities and processes have different activation conditions and reaction rates. Sensations, perceptions and thoughts are parts of an internal state which involve a means of being aware.

A sensation is a component of the internal state which is relatively low in the hierarchy - a minor abstraction from the data of a sense organ. It stipulates little about the aware being's environment and state.

A perception is a component of the internal state which is middling high in the hierarchy - a moderate abstraction from, and correlation between, sense organs and exploratory behaviours to manipulate those sense organs' states. It stipulates quite a lot about the aware being's environment and state. Perceptions react slower relative to sensations, and thus are a fabricator of times.

A thought is a component of the internal state which is very high in the hierarchy. It's a great abstraction from sense organs, exploratory behaviours and correlations between them. It correlates perceptions and causal interventions. It stipulates a lot about the aware being's environment, and state, and past environments. Thoughts react slower relative to perceptions, and thus are a conjuror of histories.

In that respect, sensations are the least conceptualised components of awareness, thoughts are the most.

Mind


The ongoing updates of an aware being's internal state.

Body


A closed collection of means of interacting with an environment.

Good


Optimal action. One can be good at something unjust.

Happiness


A judgement which applies to a life spent in pleasant internal states.

Justice


Optimal action without unjustified prejudice.

Truth


Optimally justified assertability.

I'll use the words differently obv, but we all know that how words are used is not how things are! So I wanted to write down how I thought things are.

Amity August 30, 2023 at 16:25 #834726
Quoting Mikie
No, but the aim (provide no answers but assist others in discovering their own) seemed similar.


But that wasn't my aim. An answer might have been provided by the parent once the context and circumstances were known. If the answer was not known, then they could both find out together. Google.

Quoting Mikie
But more like getting to know them better.


Yes, it kinda works like that but not always.

Quoting Mikie
And I don’t consider this a “test,” really — although I can see how it would be viewed that way. I’m in no position to grade anyone’s work.


I know. But it does test the mind and memory box!!
It's a great thread and the replies are fascinating. I'll grade you as Excellent!
And I am in a position to know. Being an authentic Goddess. True that.
Mikie August 30, 2023 at 17:52 #834755
Quoting Amity
But that wasn't my aim.


Fair enough!

Quoting Amity
I'll grade you as Excellent!
And I am in a position to know. Being an authentic Goddess. True that.


:grin: Can’t argue with that.

Reply to fdrake

Appreciate the response.
Count Timothy von Icarus August 30, 2023 at 20:37 #834779
Being: what perception and consciousness are aware of, what thinking is about.

Awareness: perception, thinking, and consciousness

Consciousness: awareness, perception, thinking.

Thinking: conscious awareness of perceptions and being.

Sensation: perception

Perception: sensation

Mind: place where consciousness, perception, sensation, and awareness happen.

:cool: EZPZ
Banno August 30, 2023 at 23:01 #834798
Quoting javi2541997
How would you use those terms if you do not know their definition?

Quite easily. We use terms for which we don't have ready definitions all the time. That's why we need dictionaries, and why good ones are so difficult to write.

Janus August 30, 2023 at 23:43 #834804
Quoting Mikie
If the current fashionable state of philosophy is to answer with a slogan like “it’s how it’s used,” I think we’re in real trouble.


I agree. If people present their understandings of the meanings of the terms then they are presenting their own usages, That's what definitions are: descriptions of usages, or we could even say that they are usages. I didn't take the OP to be implying that there could be only one meaning of the terms it asks people to define; on the contrary I took the purpose to be the very opposite: to draw out some different usages. When I hear the simplistic slogan: "meaning is use" I always think "yeah, whose use?". Giving a definition of a term is one kind of use.

So:

Being: as a noun, 'what is', As verb": the act, state or process of existing.

Awareness: autonomously responding to some stimulus.

Consciousness: At a minimum, awareness, at a maximum, self-reflective awareness.

Thinking: imagining, remembering, conceiving, comparing, judging, believing.

Sensation bodily feeling arising from internal or external stimuli.

Perception: sensing as, sensation mediated by association, recognition, conception or judgement.

Mind: A fictive "location" where awareness, consciousness, perception and thinking go on or are "contained".
punos August 31, 2023 at 02:08 #834816
Reply to Mikie

Being: An agent. A complex existent integrated enough to have acquired a concept of identity, self, and other. An entity capable of complex behavior in relation to its environment. The essence of being alive without necessarily being organic.

Awareness: The function of relating information to the sense of self, selective in nature according to internal motivations primed by prior experiences.

Consciousness: The working together in an integrated way of various regions of a brain and nervous system (or neural network) to bring about a coherent informational representation or internal dynamic simulation of both internal body states and external world states in the "global workspace", evolutionarily tuned for survival. (Integrated Information Theory, and Global Workspace Theory)

Thinking: The different neural patterns or modalities that can arise in the brain that are adapted for specific types of information processing (conscious and unconscious).

Time: The most fundamental aspect of the universe. The "thing" that allows or permits change to happen in the universe. It is not just the measurement of change or duration. Time and energy are one and the same. Without time no event could ever have happened, or would ever happen.

Sensation: The specific type of low level information representation derived from different sensory apparatus presented to the "global workspace" where consciousness resides. They take the form of various qualia in the context of a conscious mind.

Perception: The filtering and selective result of raw sensation deemed salient by the conscious and unconscious parts of the brain.

Mind: All the emergent properties of sufficiently complex neural networks or brains that exists in a latent space above and in between the information processing of the network nodes. The part that is more than the sum of its parts.

Body: From the perspective of the mind, the body is its supporting structure and infrastructure; the hardware to its software.

Good: That which confers advantage to an agent.

Happiness: The result of what is good and advantageous, a reduction in the tension and stress of the mind and body especially in relation to frustration. "Don't worry be happy."

Justice: A cultural adaptation aimed at mitigating acts of revenge in a sufficiently complex society. The attempt to resolve feelings of unfairness and injustice in the population in order to foster sufficient trust in the society so that cooperation is possible and/or more efficient/effective.

Truth: Anything that is possible or permitted by the laws of physics or the universe, either in actuality or as potentiality.
jorndoe August 31, 2023 at 03:32 #834828
(all subject to change, incomplete, ...)

Being
• a being often refers to a (possibly supposed) sentient lifeform
• being in general can more or less be synonymous with existence, whatever is, real or imaginary/fictional alike, known or unknown alike, has no complement

Awareness
• self-awareness is included in awareness, meta-cognition, awareness of something
• usage overlaps with consciousness

Consciousness
• self-conscious and self-aware differ in usage, the former is about how one thinks others perceive oneself
• part of some minds, sometimes (I think it might be a necessary part, in some uses anyway)

Thinking
• mulling things over, contemplating, reasoning, peripherally or concentrating, recalling something
• part of some minds, sometimes (rarely in certain cases :grin:)

Time
• Time and such (Nov 11, 2017), might need an update

Mind
Body
User image
? known cases, exemplifiable

Perception
• "if anything significant differentiates dreams hallucinations etc, and perception, then it's the perceived"
• the self part of interaction with the perceived
• part of some minds, sometimes
• also related to phenomenology

(...)
Banno September 04, 2023 at 21:23 #835693
Quoting Mikie
I'd use the term, and encourage them to use it, so the child can see how it is used.
— Banno

All kind of sounds like a cop out to me.


So what happened? A few folk provided their own lists of synonyms, then the thread petered out.

Providing a definition is not doing philosophy, anymore than shuffling a deck of cards is playing Rummy. If there is a cop out here, it is in thinking that by providing a definition, one is doing philosophy. Philosophy is not a list of facts, so much as an ongoing conversation.
Mikie September 04, 2023 at 22:15 #835702
Quoting Banno
So what happened? A few folk provided their own lists of synonyms, then the thread petered out.


Yeah, as I expected. I said at the beginning there were no wrong answers, so there was no follow up from me— despite the fact that disagreement and desire for further clarification was present. I was interested in how one would respond on the spot, if asked. The answers I did get were interesting.

Quoting Banno
If there is a cop out here, it is in thinking that by providing a definition, one is doing philosophy.


Except I have never once made that claim, and in fact have often argued against the idea for the last four years.

Quoting Banno
Philosophy is not a list of facts, so much as an ongoing conversation.


Funny that you’d end your post with a definition of philosophy as an “ongoing conversation.”




L'éléphant September 04, 2023 at 22:28 #835704
Quoting Mikie
Funny that you’d end your post with a definition of philosophy as an “ongoing conversation.”

I disagree. Banno's comment is an explanation of doing philosophy, not its definition.
Mikie September 04, 2023 at 23:52 #835716
Reply to L'éléphant

“Philosophy is not x, but more y.”

An explanation of what something “is” or isn’t— that’s dealing with meaning, and is a kind of definition.

fdrake September 06, 2023 at 12:02 #835887
Quoting Mikie
“ongoing conversation.”


@Banno

An ongoing conversation always conducted elsewhere.
frank September 06, 2023 at 14:28 #835903
Reply to fdrake

Not for me. I often think in terms of opposing viewpoints, or a triangle, or a square.

If you think of your own ideas about Being, notice that they make sense relative to the opposing view. What is that opposing view? What are its strengths and weaknesses? Are there other views that lie at an angle to this opposition, so they partake in some ways from each pole of the original opposition?

If you can't do this, it's probably because your intellect is being controlled by emotions on this one issue. If you let emotions go (or put them on a shelf), your mind will be able to move freely, recognizing that the question is beyond the limits of language anyway.

Banno September 06, 2023 at 21:50 #835980
Quoting fdrake
...always conducted elsewhere.


It's often a different conversation about something more useful.
L'éléphant September 08, 2023 at 01:36 #836274
Quoting Mikie
An explanation of what something “is” or isn’t— that’s dealing with meaning, and is a kind of definition.

You're not convinced with your own assertion. "Kind of"?

I want to use the example of surgery. If you find someone cutting though the flesh and rearranging the organs of another human being, is he performing surgery? After all, these are what surgeons do when they operate. But what if that someone is not a doctor? -- certainly he's not performing surgery because the definition of surgery is limited to the "practice of medicine" which could only be applied to doctors.

Philosophy involves ongoing conversation -- whether written or verbal. But not all ongoing conversations are doing philosophy.
Mikie September 08, 2023 at 04:08 #836289
Quoting L'éléphant
But not all ongoing conversations are doing philosophy.


No one said they were.

Philosophy involves many things. To privilege or emphasize “ongoing conversation” is a definition, or at least part of one. It’s distinguishing one phenomenon from another — philosophy is not x (a set of facts), but y (an ongoing conversation). The meaning of philosophy is the subject.

To argue it’s an “explanation” is just playing games. Trees aren’t so much clouds as they are entities with trunks and leaves — I’m not defining a tree, I’m just “explaining” the features of a tree. Come on.

Leontiskos September 16, 2023 at 18:21 #838086
Quoting Mikie
True. Still, I’m sure you use these words like anyone else, and usually mean something by them. So that’s what I was asking for. If a kid would ask for your own take on these terms, would the answer be “it depends on use” or would you have some (albeit provisional) answer?


Quoting Mikie
If the current fashionable state of philosophy is to answer with a slogan like “it’s how it’s used,” I think we’re in real trouble.


Quoting Mikie
“Philosophy is not x, but more y.”

An explanation of what something “is” or isn’t— that’s dealing with meaning, and is a kind of definition.


All good and important points. :up:

Quoting Leontiskos
Yes, of course all material definitions are nominal. But if you don't admit the existence of [definitions] then you cannot say that A is a better X than B. . .


Quoting Leontiskos
So if we take your interpretation of Searle then we get, "B(L, f(a)) is a better construal of belief than B(L,p)." Once we understand what a real definition and a nominal definition are, then this is just to claim that the nominal definition B(L, f(a)) better approximates the real definition of belief than the nominal definition B(L,p). If there is no real definition, then there can be no approximation or comparison.
Paine September 16, 2023 at 19:48 #838106
Quoting Mikie


Being: Whatever it is that everything is doing without qualification.

Awareness: The activity that brings beings into presence

Consciousness: Whatever conditions that make awareness possible

Thinking: Talking with others and myself through making or following connections.

Time: That one is very tricky. I don't have time to explain myself.

Sensation: An integral component of perception

Perception: Distinguishing things given through sensation. (I recognize this is straight up Aristotle)

Mind: A way to talk about consciousness as an agent.

Body: What every being is with qualifications.

Good: The idea of the best as conceived against the reality of its absence.

Happiness: When I feel good.

Justice: Another very tricky one but am convinced of its importance for the Good to be.

Truth: Not sure I can handle the truth.



Leontiskos September 16, 2023 at 20:03 #838109
Quoting Mikie
Being


...

Awareness


To be conscious or cognizant of.

Consciousness


Intellectual awareness.

Thinking


The ordering of ideas.

Time


The viscosity of succession.

Sensation


The perceptible acting of a physical object on a subject.

Perception


The awareness of sensation. Also used metaphorically with respect to cognitive objects.

Mind


The seat of that which thinks in a discursive manner.

Body


That part of the human being which has extension.

Good


That which is in some way desirable.

Happiness


What all men seek.

Justice


The rendering of that which is due.

Truth


The adequation (or correspondence) between thought and thing.
Mikie September 16, 2023 at 21:04 #838114
Patterner September 16, 2023 at 23:18 #838128
Quoting Mikie
Consciousness

I think it is a couple things.

1) Subjective experience
Having a point of view, which means one experiences things. As opposed to things simply happening to an object. Rocks don't have a pov. Neither do robots with parts that detect light, and parts that perform actions when the light-detectors send signals to them.

2) Awareness
-Awareness of a subjective experience is possibly redundant? If you weren't aware of it, it wouldn't be a subjective experience.

-Self-Awareness is more. I doubt a bat is self-aware.

-Awareness of awareness seems more still. Are there animals that are aware of themselves as individuals, but not aware that they are aware of themselves?

I presume the higher levels of awareness require more intelligence than the lower levels.