Art Created by Artificial Intelligence

T Clark September 27, 2023 at 18:09 7700 views 91 comments
I’ve been paying attention to Midjourney, a program that uses artificial intelligence to generate visual art. In order to use Midjourney, you input text describing the subject matter, style of graphics, preferred artists, colors, and other descriptive features. It costs money to join, but they post selected images. No, I am not a member. Here’s a link to their showcase page, which changes often.

https://www.midjourney.com/showcase/recent/

Note that, if you run your cursor over an image, it will show you the input used to generate the image. I assume these are selected from among the best generated by their members. Here’s another link to the Reddit subreddit r/Midjourney, where members post their own creations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/midjourney/

Some preliminary thoughts and observations:

  • Lots of attractive women. Often redheads.
  • No pornography, although a bare breast from time to time. I don’t know whether this is because the program has limits built in or if sexually explicit images are not selected.
  • Lots of images in the styles of Gustav Klimt and Vincent van Gogh, especially “Starry Night.”
  • It’s funny how often the program ignores parts of the instructions, often leaving things out and making its own choices. In some ways, this is the most interesting part of the images.
  • I really like a lot of the images. Some of them are (intentionally) funny. Some would be thought provoking if I didn’t know where they came from.
  • Looking at the Reddit page, many of the creators are clearly proud of what they’ve created, as if their input was an important contribution.


More generally, I find the creations disturbing, empty. This is similar to how I feel about written work created by Chat GPT. I’m not sure how much of this is related to my own prejudice, how much comes from the early level of software development, and how much is in the images themselves. Maybe the biggest reason for the hollowness I perceive is the idea that the people using the programs believe that they’ve created something significant. That they deserve credit.

More broadly, this makes me question my responses to human-created art. How much of that is just as hollow as that produced by machines? I don’t really want to ask “Is it art” - we’ve been through that before. Well, maybe I do… I can certainly see why it frightens graphic artists. I can see plenty of applications where it could replace human image-making e.g. book covers, posters, advertisements, book illustrations, comic books…

So… Thoughts? I have no particular agenda here. I guess I’m just looking to clarify for myself how to think about these things.


Comments (91)

simplyG September 27, 2023 at 18:23 #840839
Art itself sometimes is the method to produce it rather than the end result itself. I looked at the first link you posted where it shows the recent creations and I’m impressed by some of them. Perhaps this is another tool to the artist as much as a paintbrush has been in the past.

This is not as bad as the NFT bubble crap though so kinda refreshing.
praxis September 27, 2023 at 18:32 #840841
Quoting T Clark
No pornography, although a bare breast from time to time. I don’t know whether this is because the program has limits built in or if sexually explicit images are not selected.


It claims to be a PG-13 rating but I would class it at G. For example, if you make a prompt for Michelangelo's Statue of David it will only produce ones fully clothed. If you specify 'nude' it will refuse.

Quoting T Clark
I can certainly see why it frightens graphic artists.


:snicker: Yes it puts another dent in the industry, but we're accustomed to taking hits. Outsourcing, online templates, crowdsourcing... the devaluation is endless, or rather it's getting much closer to the end. I adopted it right away and it's a useful tool for GD, also for generating subject matter to paint. I prefer to paint from life but having any image that you can instantly generate and view from a monitor is very very handy. It takes time and effort to set up a still-life or find a good landscape or seascape.
DingoJones September 27, 2023 at 19:03 #840851
Reply to T Clark

First test would be to see if you can tell the difference between AI art and human art. If you cannot, that would imply the “hollowness” exists in your mind and not the artwork.
Also the lack of pornography is built in. There are ways around it but the programs mostly resist nudity. AI sucks at drawing humans touching as well.
The reason it ignores portions of the prompt used is usually because the latter portions of the prompt are pre-empted by the random generation of previous portions of the prompt.
Lastly, it is only a matter of time (short time) before most commercial art is AI generated. Book covers and the like are getting easier and easier for AI to get right.
T Clark September 27, 2023 at 19:15 #840855
Quoting DingoJones
First test would be to see if you can tell the difference between AI art and human art. If you cannot, that would imply the “hollowness” exists in your mind and not the artwork.


I'm not sure that's true, although that question is what led me to question the value of some human-created art.

Quoting DingoJones
The reason it ignores portions of the prompt used is usually because the latter portions of the prompt are pre-empted by the random generation of previous portions of the prompt.


That makes sense.

Quoting DingoJones
Lastly, it is only a matter of time (short time) before most commercial art is AI generated. Book covers and the like are getting easier and easier for AI to get right.


I wonder where there will be room for humanity when it's all over.
RogueAI September 27, 2023 at 19:17 #840857
Quoting T Clark
I wonder where there will be room for humanity when it's all over.


There will still be a need to sift through all the Ai-generated images looking for the best ones. That doesn't require a lot of skill though. If I was a professional artist, I'd be worried. Or I'd sell my paintings with a video of me making the painting included, so there's proof a human did it.
DingoJones September 27, 2023 at 19:26 #840858
Quoting T Clark
I wonder where there will be room for humanity when it's all over.


These AI art and writing programs are nowhere close to the kind of AI that would represent a threat to humanity, if thats what you mean.
As for art, I think commercially human art will be a pale shadow to AI commercial art but the human desire to create art will never really die.
Something else to consider is a human artist using AI like any other tool (pencil, straight edges, paint brush, various canvas types etc) to create works of art they could only imagine doing before. The scope and scale of a project skyrockets with a good AI to handle key components of an overall greater work of art, for example adding a microscopic or very small perspective image so that the paintings primary object has less of that hollowness you mentioned. The observer of the art will be experiencing a richness they cannot even detect with their naked eye.
praxis September 27, 2023 at 19:36 #840859
Human or AI?

User image
simplyG September 27, 2023 at 19:46 #840861
Reply to praxis

No way to reliably guess, it’s a coin toss. I’m gonna go with AI
javi2541997 September 27, 2023 at 20:15 #840866
Quoting praxis
Human or AI?


Quoting simplyG
it’s a coin toss. I’m gonna go with AI


I am going to go with human then. Let's see which side it lands.
T Clark September 27, 2023 at 20:17 #840867
Quoting praxis
Human or AI?


For what it's worth, it looks like a lot of the stuff on Midjourney.
Angelo Cannata September 27, 2023 at 20:18 #840869
Quoting DingoJones
First test would be to see if you can tell the difference between AI art and human art. If you cannot, that would imply the “hollowness” exists in your mind and not the artwork.


I think this is an important point to get clarifications.
Art can be analyzed critically, trying to define objective elements that witness its value, its richness of meaning, its depth. But this is only one way of approaching art. The most human way, I would say the authentic way, is deeper, intuitive, almost entirely subjective, but, exactly because of this, it is vulnerable, even exposed to be ridiculised. The Italian of the Modigliani hoax happened in 1984 is meaningful: those boys were able to deceive even well experienced and professional art critics.
I would answer: “So what?”
Yes, art critics can be deceived, even easily; we can even be mistaken if an abstract painting has been hung upside down. So what? This means nothing. Art is not maths. These facts do not affect at all what is really important in art.
The essence of art is human inner experience that is communicated. There are many other important aspects, but the essence is the event of communication of an artist’s soul, the artist’s intimate emotions, feelings. For this reason, I want to know who the artist was, I want to know his life.
For example, I might be a victim of a stupid mistake and I might have believed, for all of my life, that a Michelangelo’s painting was a Van Gogh painting. So what? The authenticity of art is not in the objective truth about it. The authenticiy of art is the sincere research for the deepest and richest things that we can achieve; even better if we can add truth as much as possible. But truth is not the condition for art to be authentic. I will look for truth with all of my energies and abilities, but what is important is not reaching it or not; what is important is having cultivated a research for the best that we can achieve; so much the better if we can add truth as much as possible, but this is not the essential condition; truth is not the most valuable thing in art.

Once we understand this, we can understand why art created by AI is not art: it doesn’t matter if it is able to deceive everybody. What matters is that, once we know that it comes from a computer, we know that it cannot contain the richness of a work of art created by a human being.

About this, we didn’t even need to wait for AI: the problem came out already with photography. A good photography can deceive anybody. So what? Being vulnerable to deceit is just a normal aspect of our humanity, that contributes exactly to make us humans.

What is important is not what we find, but what we are looking for.
Joshs September 27, 2023 at 20:22 #840871
Reply to T Clark Quoting T Clark
More broadly, this makes me question my responses to human-created art. How much of that is just as hollow as that produced by machines? I don’t really want to ask “Is it art” - we’ve been through that before. Well, maybe I do… I can certainly see why it frightens graphic artists. I can see plenty of applications where it could replace human image-making e.g. book covers, posters, advertisements, book illustrations, comic books…


Here’s an excellent argument against the notion that A.I. can ‘create’ art:

DingoJones September 27, 2023 at 21:52 #840880
Reply to Angelo Cannata

That kind of subjective free for all stains real art, diminishes it imo. A pretentious and self indulgent game of “make believe” that the bored participate in so they feel elite without having to actually earn it. A game of false status. Its why its so easy to trick that world (the wine world is like this too), its easiest to be a poser amongst other posers.
I know thats a bit scathing but setting the bar so low a painting could be “just as good” if it was accidentally hung upside down is just jerking off in public aa far as im concerned. Its a vulgar insult to artists who actually strive for meaning in their work.
Mr Bee September 27, 2023 at 22:55 #840886
Quoting T Clark
I can certainly see why it frightens graphic artists. I can see plenty of applications where it could replace human image-making e.g. book covers, posters, advertisements, book illustrations, comic books…


To an extent yes. I can see it replacing low level artist jobs involving stock photography and simple generic book covers, but nothing on the level of full on comic books just yet. With regards to depicting complicated scenes, scenes with context, and subjects consistently, those are areas where the AI seems to struggle, and given how it's been advancing over these past 2 years I'm doubtful that those issues will be solved in the short to medium term, at least barring the possibility of a sudden technological breakthrough.
praxis September 28, 2023 at 00:02 #840910
Quoting Angelo Cannata
What is important is not what we find, but what we are looking for.


I'm looking for an aesthetic experience. Technically that can be found anywhere and anytime, though it's usually much easier to find in art, who or whatever produces it.
praxis September 28, 2023 at 00:09 #840911
Reply to simplyG Reply to javi2541997

Midjourney AI. It has a feature where you can upload an image and the AI will generate a prompt from it. In this case it generated the prompt: A painting of trees by tim liu, in the style of california plein air, vibrant color fields, gari melchers, light brown and purple, bold colors, strong lines, dramatic skies, jeff danziger --ar 5:4

I used that prompt to generate the image above.

Quoting T Clark
For what it's worth, it looks like a lot of the stuff on Midjourney.


Good guess. :smirk:
Vera Mont September 28, 2023 at 00:15 #840913
Quoting T Clark
houghts? I have no particular agenda here. I guess I’m just looking to clarify for myself how to think about these things.


I think posters, rather than artwork. Of course, I have the same reaction to quite a lot of human-produced graphic art. I see a great deal of overlap between CAD and AI. They are all pretty and very neat; spontaneous human art usually isn't. I quite like some of them. The fantastic houses, I like very much. Also the balloon heads and the deer/camo wallpaper.
But I like Chimpanzee art more.
Tom Storm September 28, 2023 at 00:19 #840914
Reply to T Clark Interesting TC.

I can't say I like any of the images - it's predominantly theatrical - fantasy/sci/fi/surrealism and to my taste overstated and derivative. I wonder if it primarily appeals to a certain type of male taste.

Mind you, there's a lot of art painted by highly skilled human beings for the market that I experience as empty and device ridden. If I sense a vitality and a distinctive point of view in a work, I tend to like it. But this is entirely personal.

You can certainly see how AI could replace generic commercial art such as appears in advertising and on some book covers.

Nils Loc September 28, 2023 at 00:25 #840918
Just as CGI replaced a lot of practical effects in film AI innovation may end up eliminating real cinematic photography altogether (if it is cheaper). This prospect is terrifying. Films will become more structured like video games, where actors perform the movement and voice work, and AI tools enhance the aesthetic skin/style/rendering. There still will be a lot of work to be done for any creative enterprise that isn't just a basic prompt image generation.

From the standpoint of having an original vision as an artist, you still can't really achieve it from AI prompts at all. Heck, I'm sure even many artists have trouble translating their vision to whatever medium. Prompt generation also leaves out the sometimes fun/therapeutic process of doing art -- it sometimes being as much about the journey as the end product.

The youtube channel Corridor (a crew of CGI enthusiasts) made an animated film using AI in the style of the gothic Vampire Hunter D films (which were painstakingly hand drawn). While it doesn't meet the aesthetic quality of the hand drawn films, and acting/writing is pretty garbage, it is still really impressive.

T Clark September 28, 2023 at 01:43 #840931
Quoting praxis
Yes it puts another dent in the industry, but we're accustomed to taking hits. Outsourcing, online templates, crowdsourcing... the devaluation is endless, or rather it's getting much closer to the end. I adopted it right away and it's a useful tool for GD, also for generating subject matter to paint. I prefer to paint from life but having any image that you can instantly generate and view from a monitor is very very handy. It takes time and effort to set up a still-life or find a good landscape or seascape.


I appreciate the input from an actual visual artist. The closest I come to such expression is in writing, so I often have a hard time imagining how it would be for painters or musicians. I'm really glad I've finished my career so I don't have to figure out how to make it work.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 01:46 #840932
Quoting RogueAI
There will still be a need to sift through all the Ai-generated images looking for the best ones. That doesn't require a lot of skill though. If I was a professional artist, I'd be worried. Or I'd sell my paintings with a video of me making the painting included, so there's proof a human did it.


Yes. Your thinking parallels my own, but your solutions seem pretty unsatisfying. I'm sure you feel the same way.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 01:55 #840933
Quoting DingoJones
These AI art and writing programs are nowhere close to the kind of AI that would represent a threat to humanity, if thats what you mean.


Sure, but the whole process is brand new and seems to be changing very fast. What comes next?

Quoting DingoJones
Something else to consider is a human artist using AI like any other tool (pencil, straight edges, paint brush, various canvas types etc) to create works of art they could only imagine doing before. The scope and scale of a project skyrockets with a good AI to handle key components of an overall greater work of art, for example adding a microscopic or very small perspective image so that the paintings primary object has less of that hollowness you mentioned. The observer of the art will be experiencing a richness they cannot even detect with their naked eye.


This brings up a question that has been discussed previously here on the forum - How important is technical mastery in the production of art. I've gone back and forth about it, but at some level it seems clear to me that the technical limits imposed by the form of art are the framework, the superstructure, that artists work with to communicate with their audience. What happens when technical mastery of any sort is no longer needed? It seems to me we're left with little more than paint-by-numbers.
RogueAI September 28, 2023 at 01:57 #840934
Quoting T Clark
Yes. Your thinking parallels my own, but your solutions seem pretty unsatisfying. I'm sure you feel the same way.


Yes.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 02:02 #840938
Quoting Angelo Cannata
The essence of art is human inner experience that is communicated. There are many other important aspects, but the essence is the event of communication of an artist’s soul, the artist’s intimate emotions, feelings.


This is an explanation of what makes art art that I find convincing and consistent with my own experience.

Quoting Angelo Cannata
The authenticity of art is not in the objective truth about it. The authenticiy of art is the sincere research for the deepest and richest things that we can achieve; even better if we can add truth as much as possible. But truth is not the condition for art to be authentic. I will look for truth with all of my energies and abilities, but what is important is not reaching it or not; what is important is having cultivated a research for the best that we can achieve; so much the better if we can add truth as much as possible, but this is not the essential condition; truth is not the most valuable thing in art.


I don't think I buy this. I have no problem with putting some effort into understanding the visual language, references, symbols, metaphors, history of a work, but at the end, it needs to speak for itself.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 02:03 #840939
Quoting Mr Bee
To an extent yes. I can see it replacing low level artist jobs involving stock photography and simple generic book covers, but nothing on the level of full on comic books just yet. With regards to depicting complicated scenes, scenes with context, and subjects consistently, those are areas where the AI seems to struggle, and given how it's been advancing over these past 2 years I'm doubtful that those issues will be solved in the short to medium term, at least barring the possibility of a sudden technological breakthrough.


I would like to think you're right.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 02:09 #840940
Quoting Vera Mont
I think posters, rather than artwork. Of course, I have the same reaction to quite a lot of human-produced graphic art. I see a great deal of overlap between CAD and AI. They are all pretty and very neat; spontaneous human art usually isn't. I quite like some of them. The fantastic houses, I like very much. Also the balloon heads and the deer/camo wallpaper.
But I like Chimpanzee art more.


I think it's fun and I also like some of what is produced. What bothers me is that the act of creating is very important to me. In my particular case, it deals more with words than with images. When I am creating, putting my thoughts on paper, I feel as close as I ever do to the real me, if you'll allow me that. I assume visual artists feel the same. Can that be taken away?
Vera Mont September 28, 2023 at 02:21 #840945
Quoting T Clark
I think it's fun and I also like some of what is produced.


I like some of it, too. But after a while, they're all too much alike. Perfect forms, perfect faces, perfectly coloured inside the lines. Like all the advertising and illustrative computer graphics, it looks and feels mass produced. And there is already far too much of it.

Quoting T Clark
I assume visual artists feel the same.

I can't speak for all visual artists, but yes, I would agree. There isn't much more gratifying that bringing an idea or image out of one's dreams* and making it in the real world.
(* I used to have a sort of recurring dream of going to craft show and buying something I really liked, only they would never let me carry it past the glass doors, so I had to memorize it and try to recreate next day in my studio. Silly, but I made some OK sculpture.)

Quoting T Clark
Can that be taken away?

No. But a lot of artists have day jobs to pay for paints or clay, rent and catfood, and the computers can certainly take that away.
DingoJones September 28, 2023 at 03:35 #840961
Quoting T Clark
Sure, but the whole process is brand new and seems to be changing very fast. What comes next?


My guess is AI will keep mastering things, eventually robotics will catch up and we get robot servants who can do everything for us. How that effects our civilization…should be interesting.
As for the kind of AI that kills us? My guess is we will create it by accident, a result of accumulated knowledge and stored information becoming memory before becoming consciousness. We won’t know until the AI does whatever it ends up wanting to do. Best case for us is it just leaves its insignificant creators behind.

Quoting T Clark
This brings up a question that has been discussed previously here on the forum - How important is technical mastery in the production of art. I've gone back and forth about it, but at some level it seems clear to me that the technical limits imposed by the form of art are the framework, the superstructure, that artists work with to communicate with their audience. What happens when technical mastery of any sort is no longer needed? It seems to me we're left with little more than paint-by-numbers.


I think sufficiently advanced paint by numbers will be indistinguishable from any art humans can create. Human art will change, my guess is it will blend with science and scientists will be the new artists. Once we can do anything, there will be artistry in the choices in how to do it.


javi2541997 September 28, 2023 at 04:04 #840965
Reply to praxis Interesting! :up:
praxis September 28, 2023 at 04:12 #840966
It’s not much of a threat to graphic design yet, even for low-end work. It’s output if far too generic and it can’t really do typography. That may change in the near future though. Currently the worst hit must be to stock photography and illustration. Last week I used Midjourney for a bunch of magazine ads instead of stock images. It’s cheaper, and it’s a lot quicker and more convenient to type some prompts than doing image searches and reviewing hundreds of images.
NOS4A2 September 28, 2023 at 05:24 #840976
Reply to T Clark

I feel the same way about all things digital. Maybe it’s the medium, or that all of it is largely a string of ones and zeroes, and a portrait of the artist as a person who moves a contraption around on his desk, clicking it every once in a while. Of course artificial intelligence could do that better than a human being, when you think about it.
Mr Bee September 28, 2023 at 08:14 #840989
Quoting T Clark
I would like to think you're right.


Me too, though part of the reason for me saying that is that it doesn't really seem like AI art has advanced all that much since this year began compared to 2022 when DALLE-2 was introduced. Although generations have gotten more detailed and covered more subject matter as a result (I suspect) of models being fed more data, I don't really see much progress being made in addressing the obvious shortcomings that I've mentioned in my previous post, and it doesn't really feel like feeding it more will change that. My guess is that it's because it doesn't understand the world the same way we do, since (to my knowledge) the way it "learns" is largely a matter of statistics.

Now I could be wrong, and things could change rapidly in the next few months but the more time passes the more doubtful I become of that happening. At this point it just seems like society is settling into a harmonious coexistence between AI and human artists.
Janus September 28, 2023 at 08:27 #840990
Quoting T Clark
So… Thoughts? I have no particular agenda here. I guess I’m just looking to clarify for myself how to think about these things.


Looks like AI has a Kitch sensibility. It all seems like tasteless crap to me.
unenlightened September 28, 2023 at 09:00 #840993
Try telling AI to start a new 'school of art'. What is happening is industrial plagiarism, and industrial forgery. It has an empty feel because it is clever copying and there is nothing creative happening. That does not mean it is possible to tell the difference, though. Plagiarism and forgery have long traditions too and can already be hard to impossible to detect. So it goes. Art has survived printing and photography, it will probably survive this.
EnPassant September 28, 2023 at 15:35 #841089
Like Jurassic Park the novelty of digital art grabs you but it cannot hold for long. It becomes tedious. These days computer art makes me feel queasy. I enjoyed Jurassic Park but I could not sit through yet another digi movie.
simplyG September 28, 2023 at 15:48 #841095
Reply to EnPassant

I think special effects such as CGI have to be combined with compelling story telling otherwise it’s just unsatisfactory eye candy which after novelty loses its appeal it becomes tedious and empty but the same criticism can be levelled at human created art. The issue is art is meant to evoke emotion to the observer by changing the way we look at the world.
praxis September 28, 2023 at 15:49 #841096
Reading through this topic you might think there was no such thing as cheap mass produced art before AI came along. :lol:
simplyG September 28, 2023 at 15:51 #841098
Reply to praxis

Pop art has been around for ages now, but that does not negate its value - if it can alter the perspective to the viewer then it’s been successful in that regard …no ?
praxis September 28, 2023 at 16:08 #841105
Reply to simplyG

I’m not referring to pop art. I mean what I said, art that is cheap and produced in mass. There will always be a place (market) for it in a capitalist/materialist society. AI just makes production more efficient. The fact is that modern society (all of us) loves efficiency and predictability.
simplyG September 28, 2023 at 16:21 #841108
Reply to praxis

Could a comparison then be drawn with production line of other products such as cars, electronics, fashion where automation has taken over…why should art be different if the end result is the same if not better eventually. There is human input in both art that is currently output by current AI and production line manufacture of other goods - the question pertinent is that of originality which is what real art should bring to the table and if originality is indistinguishable between ai and human art then ai has been a success no ?

Also it’s the aim of every artist, be it bands who wish to make it into the mainstream rather than stay under the radar and thus reap the rewards of their creativity. So to me just because something is cheap and mass produced does not always necessarily mean it’s of lower quality.

We have higher bit rates of music reproduction since the days of Vinyl though vinyl retains its value in terms of a physical asset/sentiment which you can exhibit in your living room.
praxis September 28, 2023 at 16:57 #841120
Quoting simplyG
... the question pertinent is that of originality which is what real art should bring to the table...


People have various criteria for art, such that it should be original, authentic, true, meaningful, reflect the values of society, or whatever else. I wonder if aesthetic experience is taken for granted or if it's practically an afterthought in our materialistic society and it is not enough.








simplyG September 28, 2023 at 17:04 #841121
Reply to praxis

Whilst aesthetics is an important part of art it’s not the be all end end all of art because as long as art is able to meaningfully communicate some aspect of human experience than beauty (aesthetics) does not necessarily come into play because life sometimes can be ugly in certain ways such as misery and suffering but if these can be expressed aesthetically then the better the work is for it…without depriving it of subjective interpretation from the viewer point aspect.
praxis September 28, 2023 at 17:14 #841123
Quoting simplyG
Whilst aesthetics is an important part of art it’s not the be all end end all of art...


I agree, and like I said it's not enough. I'm wondering what it would be like if it were enough. If it were maybe there would be no need for AI art.
simplyG September 28, 2023 at 17:55 #841129
Reply to praxis

Art is a creative process but sometimes it’s a destructive one too. Destructive in terms of destroying our deepest held convictions about the world and creative via romantic ideals or impressionism. Whatever the style may be beauty is mostly universal if it’s expressed elegantly enough and transcends time by being timeless and says something no matter how much society changes through the centuries.

The question is what distinguishes human creativity from machine creativity as the latter is merely a program which produces results via input whereas human creativity stems from something different altogether such as emotion which machines are incapable of feeling.

As emotion can be conveyed in an aesthetically pleasing way in a sense the AI is just faking emotion but we only know this post fact of the work being produced.

T Clark September 28, 2023 at 18:17 #841136
Quoting Tom Storm
I wonder if it primarily appeals to a certain type of male taste.


If Midjourney allowed it, I'm pretty sure most of the images created would be pornographic.

Quoting Tom Storm
Mind you, there's a lot of art painted by highly skilled human beings for the market that I experience as empty and device ridden.


That is what I was thinking about when I wrote "this makes me question my responses to human-created art."

Quoting Tom Storm
If I sense a vitality and a distinctive point of view in a work, I tend to like it. But this is entirely personal.


We've talked about what art is and what good art is before. I don't think your standards are unreasonable. In reading fiction or poetry, I judge written works first by whether or not I am moved. With visual art it's harder. I am very easily moved intellectually, so I'm a sucker for something interesting and clever, unexpected and unconventional.


T Clark September 28, 2023 at 18:25 #841139
Quoting DingoJones
I think sufficiently advanced paint by numbers will be indistinguishable from any art humans can create. Human art will change, my guess is it will blend with science and scientists will be the new artists. Once we can do anything, there will be artistry in the choices in how to do it.


I agree with what @Angelo Cannata wrote - "The essence of art is human inner experience that is communicated." It's communication from one person to another. What happens when there is no actual experience being communicated?

T Clark September 28, 2023 at 18:27 #841141
Quoting Vera Mont
No. But a lot of artists have day jobs to pay for paints or clay, rent and catfood, and the computers can certainly take that away.


Yes, I guess there are two sides - the aesthetic one and labor rights one.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 18:29 #841143
Quoting NOS4A2
I feel the same way about all things digital. Maybe it’s the medium, or that all of it is largely a string of ones and zeroes, and a portrait of the artist as a person who moves a contraption around on his desk, clicking it every once in a while. Of course artificial intelligence could do that better than a human being, when you think about it.


I'm still not sure about that.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 18:31 #841144
Quoting Mr Bee
it doesn't really seem like AI art has advanced all that much since this year began compared to 2022


That seems like a pretty short-sighted view. I can't imagine there won't be significant advancements in the near future. AI as a real thing has only really been out in public for a year or so.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 18:32 #841147
Quoting Janus
Looks like AI has a Kitch sensibility. It all seems like tasteless crap to me.


There is truth in that, but I'm not sure I would say much different about most of the human-produced graphics I've seen.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 18:38 #841148
Quoting unenlightened
Try telling AI to start a new 'school of art'. What is happening is industrial plagiarism, and industrial forgery. It has an empty feel because it is clever copying and there is nothing creative happening. That does not mean it is possible to tell the difference, though. Plagiarism and forgery have long traditions too and can already be hard to impossible to detect. So it goes. Art has survived printing and photography, it will probably survive this.


Forgive me for going off on a tangent, but this makes me think about political issues like the 32 hour work week and universal basic income. At what point are humans just along for the ride while machines do all the real stuff? Would that be a bad thing? I'm retired and I'm as happy as I've ever been. What would human life be like if we never had to work?
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 18:39 #841149
Quoting simplyG
The issue is art is meant to evoke emotion to the observer by changing the way we look at the world.


Yes, this is at the heart of what I have been thinking.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 18:40 #841150
Quoting praxis
Reading through this topic you might think there was no such thing as cheap mass produced art before AI came along. :lol:


But think about all those poor guys who make motel room and doctor's office art. They need to work too.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 18:43 #841151
Quoting praxis
I wonder if aesthetic experience is taken for granted or if it's practically an afterthought in our materialistic society and it is not enough.


For me, "aesthetic experience" is an act of communication between two people. What happens when there is only one person there?
praxis September 28, 2023 at 18:43 #841152
Quoting simplyG
Art is a creative process but sometimes it’s a destructive one too. Destructive in terms of destroying our deepest held convictions about the world and creative via romantic ideals or impressionism. Whatever the style may be beauty is mostly universal if it’s expressed elegantly enough and transcends time by being timeless and says something no matter how much society changes through the centuries.


Seeing beauty in what's normally regarded as ugly via aesthetic experience can be rather depatterning, if you asked me. Anyway, it's not like revolutionary art comes before the impulse to revolt.

Once again we're talking about the utility of art, I note.

Quoting simplyG
The question is what distinguishes human creativity from machine creativity as the latter is merely a program which produces results via input whereas human creativity stems from something different altogether such as emotion which machines are incapable of feeling.


So far, AI doesn't identify creative problems or possess the impulse to express itself. Nor does it explore, play, or innovate of its own accord. I guess the impulse to express oneself requires consciousness, but I think the rest could be developed without it, and that's just around the corner.
Angelo Cannata September 28, 2023 at 18:44 #841153
Reply to DingoJones
I think you misinterpreted what I wrote, as if I was talking about one single thing and nothing else, while actually I have been talking about degrees of importance. Degrees does not mean that what is secondary and below can be ignored. As in a house, you can’t have just the pillars, just because they are the essential. As in a path, starting is the primary most important step, but you cannot stop just after the start. Many other examples can be made. If an abstract painting is upside down and nobody notices it, this doesn’t mean that the correct direction can just be ignored.
We can consider that actually everybody approaches any work of art by steps, it cannot be otherwise, simply because we are humans and we are immersed in the flow of time. I think that, in the gradual personal approach that everybody builds in their enjoyment of art, the fact that art is communication of what the artist has inside themselves should be kept all the time as the essential reference point. This does not mean that you just need to concentrate on this aspect and ignore everything else. Art is an infinite phenomenon, so, stopping at any stage, at any aspect, is just disrespectful of it.
Angelo Cannata September 28, 2023 at 18:58 #841156
Reply to praxis
As I said, art is infinite, so “aesthetic experience” can have a lot of meanings. As a human, I don’t want to waste my time with low quality aesthetic experiences, so I want to look for the richest ways of enjoying art. This does not mean that what I consider less rich ways should not be practiced. It is just my way. I think that the richest way to live an aesthetic experience is when you try to think that there was an artist who tried to communicate themselves. This does not mean that enjoying a stone shaped by nature is meaningless. Personally I find myself very prone to admire the stones that I step on, for example, when I have a walk near the sea, and I admire them in themselves, as they are, I am not a believer in God.
However, I find that a work of art produced by a human gives me a richer experience than the one I can have with things produced, for example, by nature; I even think that I have to continuously educate myself to the appreciation of art produced by humans. Primarily, not exclusively. Secondarily, there are other things, like the works of art produced by nature and everything else, even including art produced by AI.
praxis September 28, 2023 at 18:59 #841157
Quoting T Clark
But think about all those poor guys who make motel room and doctor's office art. They need to work too.


One of the first jobs I had was working in a painting factory that would mass-produce crap for hotels and the like. It was piecework, doing batches of around 20 canvases simultaneously. Talk about starving artists. :cry:

Quoting T Clark
For me, "aesthetic experience" is an act of communication between two people. What happens when there is only one person there?


One person viewing a pretty sunset is like :starstruck:
unenlightened September 28, 2023 at 19:00 #841158
Quoting T Clark
What would human life be like if we never had to work?


The devil would make some work for idle hands.
Or in modern parlance, ennui leads to mindless violence and destruction, much bombing etc, until there is some work to do clearing up and fixing things. :sad:
Vera Mont September 28, 2023 at 19:00 #841159
Quoting T Clark
Forgive me for going off on a tangent, but this makes me think about political issues like the 32 hour work week and universal basic income. At what point are humans just along for the ride while machines do all the real stuff? Would that be a bad thing? I'm retired and I'm as happy as I've ever been. What would human life be like if we never had to work?


That's a whole other issue. Since retirement, I have had time for creative endeavours that I only dreamed of while I had a family and a full time job. We might all be much happier, tinkering and inventing, exploring and foraging, painting and composing, volunteering and teaching, if it didn't have to be done either on top of a job or as a job.
But then, arts and sports should never have become jobs in the first place.
Vera Mont September 28, 2023 at 19:05 #841160
Quoting praxis
So far, AI doesn't identify creative problems or possess the impulse to express itself. Nor does it explore, play, or innovate of its own accord.


When it makes art in its spare time, without a prompt, we'll be able to ask it why.
Vera Mont September 28, 2023 at 19:09 #841161
Quoting praxis
One person viewing a pretty sunset is like :starstruck:


Two people viewing that same sunset is more like :starstruck: :starstruck: :hearts: Which is why my SO immediately calls me when he notices something remarkable or funny or beautiful.
Mr Bee September 28, 2023 at 19:13 #841162
Quoting T Clark
That seems like a pretty short-sighted view. I can't imagine there won't be significant advancements in the near future. AI as a real thing has only really been out in public for a year or so.


It would be a short sighted view if I said it in early 2022 when alot of the immediate advancements were made in AI art on a monthly basis as people explored what technologies like DALLE-2 can do. The better part of a year has passed since then and it doesn't seem like the exponential growth of the past year has carried over which suggests that we've reached a limit to what current AI image generative technologies can do. Even if we can get Midjourney to produce proper hands more often, it's never truly "taught" how to depict them properly every time, and my suspicion is that the same is gonna be involved with text generation (as some of the ones I've tested out mess it up a good portion of the time).

Now of course I'm not saying that some significant advancement will certainly not come soon. We can never accurately predict technological progress and when it will come. However it seems like that would involve some sort of breakthrough in the technology itself, and isn't just a matter of feeding models more data like we've been doing. As for when that breakthrough will come it's not really clear but I don't expect it to come in the near term.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 19:48 #841174
Quoting praxis
One person viewing a pretty sunset is like :starstruck:


You're right. I should have said "artistic experience."
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 19:49 #841175
Quoting unenlightened
until there is some work to do clearing up and fixing things.


Robots can do that too.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 19:51 #841176
Quoting Vera Mont
That's a whole other issue. Since retirement, I have had time for creative endeavours that I only dreamed of while I had a family and a full time job. We might all be much happier, tinkering and inventing, exploring and foraging, painting and composing, volunteering and teaching, if it didn't have to be done either on top of a job or as a job.


Yes, retirement is wonderful. I'm as happy as I've ever been. Yesterday I was talking to a friend with his two children, 4 and 2, standing there. I suggested he retire too, but he felt he should continue to feed his kids.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 19:53 #841178
Quoting Mr Bee
Now of course I'm not saying that some significant advancement will certainly not come soon.


We live in interesting times, for better or worse.
DingoJones September 28, 2023 at 19:56 #841180
Quoting T Clark
I agree with what Angelo Cannata wrote - "The essence of art is human inner experience that is communicated." It's communication from one person to another. What happens when there is no actual experience being communicated?


Not sure I can agree with that. Wouldnt that mean that getting a different experience from what the artist is communicating is impossible? That is, if art is only communicating experience of the artist then when someone gets a different experience (a different emotion for example) then we couldn't call it art.
Also, an AI may not have an intent like a human but they can still make art intended to provoke an experience. For example if you ask it to draw something scary it will reference what images scare humans and generate an image based on that. I would argue that there is no real difference other than where the “experience” is coming from. Again, I think if you cannot tell the difference in a blind test between AI art and human art then you can’t rationally say something is missing from the AI generated image.
Also, “communication” might not be the right word. That implies a two way exchange in my mind. Isnt art more provoking a response than communicating something?
DingoJones September 28, 2023 at 19:58 #841182
Reply to Angelo Cannata

My apologies for misinterpreting your post.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 20:04 #841183
Quoting DingoJones
Not sure I can agree with that. Wouldnt that mean that getting a different experience from what the artist is communicating is impossible? That is, if art is only communicating experience of the artist then when someone gets a different experience (a different emotion for example) then we couldn't call it art.


No, it would mean that art is subject to misjudgment and misunderstanding just like all other type of human communication.

Quoting DingoJones
Also, “communication” might not be the right word. That implies a two way exchange in my mind. Isnt art more provoking a response than communicating something?


Communication can be and often is a back and forth between people, but it doesn't have to be and often isn't. The user's manual for my new CO meter is a one way communication unless I have questions and contact the customer service line.
DingoJones September 28, 2023 at 20:52 #841192
Quoting T Clark
No, it would mean that art is subject to misjudgment and misunderstanding just like all other type of human communication.


Ok, but then you are saying getting something from art not intended (communicated) by the artist is essentially incorrect.
“Your doing it wrong! Its a happy painting not a calm one you fool!”
This is a very restrictive way to define art isn't it? Im not saying thats bad, just clarifying.

Quoting T Clark
Communication can be and often is a back and forth between people, but it doesn't have to be and often isn't. The user's manual for my new CO meter is a one way communication unless I have questions and contact the customer service line.


Fair enough, I retract my suggestion.
Angelo Cannata September 28, 2023 at 21:08 #841196
Quoting DingoJones
Wouldnt that mean that getting a different experience from what the artist is communicating is impossible? That is, if art is only communicating experience of the artist then when someone gets a different experience (a different emotion for example) then we couldn't call it art.


Actually I agree with Gadamer's idea that, in interpreting something, there isn't much point in looking for the intention of the author. Once it has been produced, a work of art gains a state autonomous from its author. So, I think it is even legitimate to criticize the author's interpretation of their own work and disagree with them. But this does not mean that the author and their intention are just negligible. I still think that reference to the author’s intention is the best criterion, provided that we are aware that actually it is impossible to reach and that even the author might not be the one who has the best awareness about their own intention. I would add, also, a reference to the "hermeneutic circle": when I interpret art, I am also interpreted by it.
Vera Mont September 28, 2023 at 21:22 #841200
Quoting T Clark
I suggested he retire too, but he felt he should continue to feed his kids.


I'm glad we adopted ours when we were in our thirties, not our sixties.

Substitute "convey something" for communicate. If the original message is lost in transit and is replaced by something equally valued, there has still been a connection. I don't interrogate Van Gogh every time my spirits are lifted by sunflowers; I don't take Yeats to task each time I read a poem. Something of them passes to me, by however indirect a route, that simply doesn't happen with computer generated art; those images never get past my eyeballs.
Janus September 28, 2023 at 22:03 #841211
Quoting T Clark
There is truth in that, but I'm not sure I would say much different about most of the human-produced graphics I've seen.


Right, and I think that is because most of the human stuff is also just robotically imitative.
T Clark September 28, 2023 at 22:13 #841215
Quoting DingoJones
Ok, but then you are saying getting something from art not intended (communicated) by the artist is essentially incorrect.
“Your doing it wrong! Its a happy painting not a calm one you fool!”
This is a very restrictive way to define art isn't it? Im not saying thats bad, just clarifying.


If I were the artist, I guess I would say I had failed to get my point across to that particular person. Again, that happens all the time with communication. If I write a post here on the forum and you don't understand what I'm trying to say, I'll go back and look to see if I could have been clearer. If no one seems to understand, I've probably done a bad job.

T Clark September 28, 2023 at 22:17 #841217
Quoting Vera Mont
I'm glad we adopted ours when we were in our thirties, not our sixties.


Yes. My brother had his children when he was in his late 50s. I love my nieces, but the idea of raising kids at this time of my life is daunting. He always really wanted kids. I certainly can understand that.

Quoting Vera Mont
Substitute "convey something" for communicate.


I have no objection to saying it that way.
simplyG September 28, 2023 at 22:20 #841219
Reply to T Clark

Is there a difference between ordinary communication and art ? By some criteria a well articulated piece of writing done so with flare can be artistic in a sense it all depends on how touched or moved the person receiving such a communication is by it that makes it art rather than just another informative blurb of text.
T Clark September 29, 2023 at 06:32 #841332
Quoting simplyG
Is there a difference between ordinary communication and art ? By some criteria a well articulated piece of writing done so with flare can be artistic in a sense it all depends on how touched or moved the person receiving such a communication is by it that makes it art rather than just another informative blurb of text.


I've thought about that. I think there is a difference, at least by convention. On the other hand, it seems like communicating ideas is conveying experience, an intellectual one.
Wayfarer September 29, 2023 at 06:44 #841335
Reply to T Clark You wait until AI and VR hook up, allowing you to virtually visit any mind- or machine-created realityscape that can be dreamed of. (Why am I inclined to doubt that the 'no pornography' firewall will break down pretty quickly. Glad I'm old. :wink: )

Incidentally, I paid 10 bucks for a bunch of computer-enhanced avatars of yours truly, at least some of which came out looking a lot better than, ahem, I actually do, I'm even using some of them:
User image

I've been using ChatGPT daily since it came out. It's been amazingly helpful with drafting and research. It really is like interacting with a knowledgeable academic tutor. The actual prose suggestions it offers are often a bit lame, but it's really good at critique, suggestions, structure, etc.
Mr Bee September 29, 2023 at 11:21 #841358
Quoting T Clark
We live in interesting times, for better or worse.


Indeed, but I'm just trying to hold on to whatever bit of realism is left nowadays.
T Clark September 29, 2023 at 15:20 #841391
Quoting Wayfarer
You wait until AI and VR hook up, allowing you to virtually visit any mind- or machine-created realityscape that can be dreamed of. (Why am I inclined to doubt that the 'no pornography' firewall will break down pretty quickly. Glad I'm old. :wink:


Pornography or not, I wouldn't mind hanging around long enough to take a look. They'd better get cracking though.
LuckyR September 29, 2023 at 15:43 #841399
Art has been created by nonhuman intelligence for decades (if not centuries). Our local zoo has sold art created by elephants for quite some time. In this scenario, the elephant acts as a "tool" of the "artist", who is the human who set up the scenario. No different from the "artist" who sets up the 3D printer or the AI.
T Clark September 29, 2023 at 16:18 #841416
Quoting LuckyR
Art has been created by nonhuman intelligence for decades (if not centuries). Our local zoo has sold art created by elephants for quite some time. In this scenario, the elephant acts as a "tool" of the "artist", who is the human who set up the scenario. No different from the "artist" who sets up the 3D printer or the AI.


I don't think visual artists are worried much about elephants stealing their jobs or taking over their niche in the aesthetic ecology.
LuckyR September 29, 2023 at 16:37 #841424
I don't think visual artists are worried much about elephants stealing their jobs or taking over their niche in the aesthetic ecology.

Reply to T Clark

I agree about the worries of individuals, though that is fodder for the Economics Forum.

The concepts I outlined are valid, though (here in the Philosophy Forum).
praxis September 29, 2023 at 23:38 #841516
Quoting Vera Mont
I don't interrogate Van Gogh every time my spirits are lifted by sunflowers; I don't take Yeats to task each time I read a poem. Something of them passes to me, by however indirect a route, that simply doesn't happen with computer generated art; those images never get past my eyeballs.


I looked up the expression 'get past my eyeballs' and apparently it has something to do with vitreous detachment and floaters. I didn't know AI had that effect. Anyway, just for fun I wanted to see how Midjourney might forge some Van Gogh sunflowers. Some renderings were much closer but the following is interesting. Looks like impasto painting over a 3D sculpture.

Click the reveal button at your own risk of eye damage.
[hide="Reveal"]User image[/hide]


T Clark September 29, 2023 at 23:51 #841519
Quoting praxis
the following is interesting.


[smart-ass remark]Yes, it's clearly a much better version than all those slapdash ones Van Gogh did. He just didn't seem to be able to get it right. [/smart-ass remark]
praxis September 30, 2023 at 00:03 #841525
Reply to T Clark

I said it was interesting. I didn't say it was better or that I even liked it. It's mildly interesting in how it kind of lost the plot and confused the 3d impasto technique with the still-life elements.

Should I have expressed fear and loathing to be more in the cool kid camp? :snicker:
Vera Mont September 30, 2023 at 00:36 #841530
Quoting praxis
I said it was interesting.


It held my interest for a full minute, because I wondered how the computer got the idea of a collage. It's pretty.
T Clark September 30, 2023 at 00:48 #841532
Quoting praxis
I said it was interesting. I didn't say it was better or that I even liked it. It's mildly interesting in how it kind of lost the plot and confused the 3d impasto technique with the still-life elements.

Should I have expressed fear and loathing to be more in the cool kid camp? :snicker:


Sorry, it was intended as a smart-ass remark. I've edited the post to clarify.
T Clark September 30, 2023 at 00:50 #841533
Quoting praxis
I said it was interesting. I didn't say it was better or that I even liked it. It's mildly interesting in how it kind of lost the plot and confused the 3d impasto technique with the still-life elements.

Should I have expressed fear and loathing to be more in the cool kid camp? :snicker:


To clarify further, as I noted, it's fun to mess around with this. I can see how a real artist would enjoy it. I enjoy messing with Chat GPT writing.
praxis September 30, 2023 at 04:04 #841576
Quoting simplyG
This is not as bad as the NFT bubble crap though so kinda refreshing.


Actually, I understand that a lot of the NFT crap was AI generated. It helped to provide a new plaything for the rich and contributed to a big waste of energy