Short Story Competition Discussion Dec 23
Hello, and welcome to the Winter 2023 short story competition!
Please carefully review the following rules, even if you are an old hand at this, as there have been some changes:
1) Submissions will be open for the remainder of 2023. They are valid through 12/31, 11:59 UTC. Do not expect an extension!
2) Voting and comments will be open until Jan. [s]10[/s] 16, after which one day will be allotted for tallying and "guess the author".
3) Entries must be PMed to @Noble Dust.
4) Max one submission per member.
5) Min 500/Max 3000 words (no exceptions).
6) Must fall under the broad category of short story. No poems or plays.
7) No pornography, trolling, or other obviously inappropriate content.
8) Submissions are to be anonymous. Don't advertise what you've written prior to voting.
9) Entries must not be previously available online.
10) Entries will be posted as discussion OPs and may be commented upon.
11) Comments should focus on stories, not authors, and may be moderated.
11b) Speculations on authorship are permitted during voting, but should remain in the sanctioned "Authorial Speculations" thread.
12) Anyone may cast a vote between 1-5 for each story, where 1 is lowest and 5 is highest, via a poll at the bottom. The story with the highest average wins.
Formatting:
If you care about formatting, please send a pastebin link rather than text. If you send text, the formatting will be lost when the story is copy-pasted into its post.
If you have any further questions or comments, post them here. The above rules are not necessarily exhaustive. Clarification on the above may be posted in the discussion below and considered addenda. Read the discussion for a full understanding of how well run this.
... All sounds a bit formal because we want to avoid confusion/controversy. Really though, the emphasis is on creativity, letting our hair down, and having a bit of fun.
Please carefully review the following rules, even if you are an old hand at this, as there have been some changes:
1) Submissions will be open for the remainder of 2023. They are valid through 12/31, 11:59 UTC. Do not expect an extension!
2) Voting and comments will be open until Jan. [s]10[/s] 16, after which one day will be allotted for tallying and "guess the author".
3) Entries must be PMed to @Noble Dust.
4) Max one submission per member.
5) Min 500/Max 3000 words (no exceptions).
6) Must fall under the broad category of short story. No poems or plays.
7) No pornography, trolling, or other obviously inappropriate content.
8) Submissions are to be anonymous. Don't advertise what you've written prior to voting.
9) Entries must not be previously available online.
10) Entries will be posted as discussion OPs and may be commented upon.
11) Comments should focus on stories, not authors, and may be moderated.
11b) Speculations on authorship are permitted during voting, but should remain in the sanctioned "Authorial Speculations" thread.
12) Anyone may cast a vote between 1-5 for each story, where 1 is lowest and 5 is highest, via a poll at the bottom. The story with the highest average wins.
Formatting:
If you care about formatting, please send a pastebin link rather than text. If you send text, the formatting will be lost when the story is copy-pasted into its post.
If you have any further questions or comments, post them here. The above rules are not necessarily exhaustive. Clarification on the above may be posted in the discussion below and considered addenda. Read the discussion for a full understanding of how well run this.
... All sounds a bit formal because we want to avoid confusion/controversy. Really though, the emphasis is on creativity, letting our hair down, and having a bit of fun.
Comments (693)
I have realized that some new features have been incorporated into this short story contest...
'Anyone may cast a vote between 1-5 for each story, where 1 is lowest and 5 is highest' It will be clear that some stories will be likeable and others don't. In the past editions, the voting system was more ambiguous and arbitrary. Nonetheless, I think it is important to keep up the functionality of feedback. We discussed this in summer. For unknown reasons, some stories get more comments than others...
I don't attempt to say with this that you are 'forced' to comment in every short story. But, if someone has voted, I think it should be mandatory to at least comment. We have more reasons than ever to put this in practice because the voting system in this contest is based on 1 to 5 and not 'I liked it' or not 'for me'. So please, if someone reads and votes, please comment and provide feedback. The author will appreciate the comments.
On the other hand, not poetry submissions this time? Oh... that will be sad, because the poems of the summer edition were pretty good and motivated people to post some when they don't seem to be motivated to post a short story.
@Amity, here we are now again! Another literary contest! See you around!
Quoting javi2541997
Unfortunately Amity is taking a break from the site. Her contributions will indeed be missed.
Oh, what a pity. She will be missed because she always put a lot of commitment into the short stories, making this contest active and vivid. I will give my best to make a similar effort as Amity did in the previous activities... Come on, lads!
@Jack Cummins
Jack, I think this is a reasonable deadline. Don't you think? I remember we both had a fierce discussion due to the extension days of the submissions... I hope this will not happen again this time. :smirk:
I have only just found the thread. I am certainly not going to be challenging the deadline. I will enter if I can get a story done because I am looking for work, which time consuming. . I hope to enter and I hope that the competition is fun and helpful for all writers and readers.
I just wanted to highlight this again.
With greater voting power comes greater responsibility. Particularly if you choose to give a negative vote, we hope and expect you to use your brain a bit: What objective features of the story led to your negative reaction? What changes to the story would have improved it? Comments which amount to "this sucked" shall be greatly frowned upon.
Exactly. The main objective is to keep learning. I will not get mad if my short story receives negative votes, but I want to know why. I remember some folks commented on my story from the previous contest, saying that it needed proofreading for grammar, and it was clear that the story was written by a non-native speaker. This is what I am looking forfeedback like this.
Nevertheless, in honour of Amity, I will try hard to do every entry justice.
Of course, you can choose to ignore the voting. Comments are the more valuable form of participation,especially from an actual published author!
People do seem to enjoy the competition. Myself, I find it motivating. I wonder if this is a guy thing though?
Quoting Vera Mont
:pray:
Thanks, Vera. We appreciate your commitment. Let's have fun! Literary activities help us improve our creativity. :grin:
Vaguely putting pieces back together, vaguely recollected , the mouse trapped in the box, is hampered by a Chinese box to leap out and find peace, pieced to gather into renewed subtlety after the fall.
homepage to marylin
That would be fantastic to see! :smile:
I understand that most of you, dear writers, are busy because December is a month when people get more excited than the rest of the year. Some folks think the end of the world is near and all that stuff, as I explained yesterday.
You can do it; I am expecting very good short stories. We are going to have fun. Everything will be fine. Keep calm and carry on. I think maybe we are going to see a short story already published at the end of this week.
Thanks contributors and participants.
:heart:
I can't find any polling data in past competitions. Is it policy that the data naming the winner is NOT kept for posterity?
Off the top of my head, Baden won the first, Jamal won the second, Tobias won the third, and Hypericin won the fourth. I think that's right.
I reckon we can add "Winner" to the thread name of the winner once it's been announced.
Exactly, I think I remember the addition of the 'winner' label to the title of the short story, actually. But I think it was written in the thread of the short story activity discussion, if I am not wrong.
Well, we can do the same in this activity again. I will remember this (surely as much as you) and we can add "Winner" to the thread name.
Just proves philosophers have no taste.
I got this idea from when I was kindergarten and the teacher gave everyone the same picture and you had to write a story about it.
I agree that a storyline prompt would help everyone get started. I go to a creative writing group and it is so useful having a starting point and it is also interesting to see how it is developed in such different ways.
Although the feeling of it being sort of spaced out may require a pause. A title ought not start out with such a prefaced dereliction toward all inclusiveness , without a proper review, as the picture quickly fades , oft reversed as they are groundlessly confused.
Perhaps, but it may gamble on reception and sales, rather then a nominal urgency to get it out there.
https://blog.reedsy.com/short-story-ideas/
It may be a bit late to introduce a specific title but we could always have some brainstorming prompts, just as an option. Discussion here can generate ideas. I remember Baden once incorporated my experience of a tall 11 year old changing the light bulb on my ceiling into a story in a previous competition.
I can't remember your stories in detail to say which was the best because there have been so many stories now. It is true that there are plenty of sources for prompts. What I find is that I often find so many that choosing one can be almost as hard as coming up with my own idea.
:up: I like the idea of using someone else's character as a starting point.
Wow, 3 already! I'm impressed. People here don't seem to know the meaning of procrastination.
I see nothing wrong with sharing a prompt, if that's what you feel like doing.
Hah, ironic.
My Gr 13 final exam included a list of titles, from which we had to choose one and write a story.
It worked out well for me, because one of the titles could fit a story I'd already started in my head.
Being given one specific subject would be more difficult, but interesting.
For next time - it doesn't seem fair to change the framework now.
Happy to read this now that I just woke up. :smile:
Quoting Vera Mont
I agree.
I often take part in haiku contests, and they are similar to Hanover's proposal. We are given a word, for example: 'cicadas' (a very summer thing), and we have to write haikus about cicadas. It is fun, but at the same time, it limits our creativity development.
I wonder if you could say what you're trying to say in language a five-year-old would understand. No worries if not.
I do like the idea of a prompt (of any kind) that everyone works from. Maybe something for another "literary activity" that's not a contest (although I see @Baden labeled this one as such).
Cidacas do remind me of late summer in Northeast Ohio. There are "Seventeen Year Cicadas" that are dormant for 17 years, and then come alive every 17 years. It's the trippiest thing. And my writer brother actually wrote a trippy story about them years ago. Anyways.
I do like the idea as well. I think it would be interesting and fun for inspiring our creativity. We could do it next spring, for example. And as you have said, it will be a literary activity and not a contest specifically.
Quoting Noble Dust
Wow! That would be very worth reading!
Clearly, such hastily built narrative formed out of a simple image of an idea, or set of related ideas , will not work as an objective way to represent the intended message proposed within .
Just sayin (while embarrassed and feel put off by it to say the least)
Maybe if you said things in fewer and simpler words, they would be easier to follow.
Sounds like fun.
That actually sounds pretty interesting. It's complicated having to come up with a story out of nothing. But with direction, inspiration seems to flow ceaselessly. Perhaps that's just me. Just another follower, I suppose. :)
Although giving a prompt for a short story could be a push to inspiration, it could lead us to limited imaginative writing. The stories based on prompts will be confined to them. It is indeed a good idea for creativity as well.
Nonetheless, I hope you don't feel limited in this December activity because prompts are not given. I think short stories can be written, and most of them will be very good. I have taken part in this activity since 2021, and most of the stories I remember were original, good, and interesting, without any prompt.
I believe that most of you folks are able to write a decent short story. I believe in it wholeheartedly.
Yeah for sure. I'm open to the idea. I wasn't totally into the non-contest thing, but if it was something like a prompt I could be into it. On the other hand, an actual contest where everyone had the same prompt could also be pretty cool. The contest would be to see who did the best with the prompt. I don't know why we're against contests here! It's ok to have friendly competition. In fact friendly competition can build more creativity. The end goal isn't to win, but the competition can just lead to more cool ideas. That's part of why we're doing this competition the way we are this time around.
Who?
You're welcome.
In all honesty I actually think the reason a prompt would work is because the stories would be vastly different from one another despite beginning from the same prompt. That's why I like the idea.
In college I was part of a 48 hour film fest where every film crew was given a film genre and a line they had to use. My crew got "silent film", and the phrase "I want to try". If I remember right, the phrase was universal, but the genre was unique to each film crew. We didn't win, but it was one of the most memorable creative experiences of my life. I was the editor. I think I got two hours of sleep during the 48 hour period...at age 20 or whatever. So no problemo.
I fully agree with you, my mate. I think this is one of the most interesting activities within the exchanges on TPF. There are a lot of threads that I decide not to dive into because they are too complex, and I run the risk of not enjoying them at all or even ending up in a discussion with bad manners.
But in this activity, it's different. I really enjoy commenting on the story of each contributor, and I also appreciate the feedback I received on mine. It is helpful because I am aware that I must keep improving my grammar.
Quoting Noble Dust
Yeah, I don't attempt to be against the idea of prompts; it's obviously another way to express creativity. Your example in the film fest is a good one. Yet, I don't recall having good memories with using prompts in other activities, such as haikus. This year (and the last one), I was given a single word: 'graveyard.'
We had to write only one haiku, but we faced a problem here: 'graveyard' is not a word related to any season. As the Japanese say, it is a 'mu-kigo' word. So, I remember suffering because I couldn't find the exact words for a graveyard.
I think, on this subject, two reasons: I don't write competitively as a rule, and because there are no metrics; no set criteria for victory as in a pole vault or chess game.
The judgements are necessarily subjective. I have found that sometimes I didn't understand the vernacular or was unfamiliar with the cultural references or simply have a general aversion to the genre or find the subject matter distasteful.
I try to keep an open mind, but I'm sure my biases creep in nonetheless, and I suspect everyone else is to some degree the same way.
But I do much prefer rating on a scale to a Y/N choice. "I liked it" can mean anything from being mildly entertained to being profoundly moved; "it was okay" in this context could mean anything from literally finding it okay to hating it with a passion. That was my only real problem with the voting system - but then, there was plenty of opportunity to explain how we understood and what we really thought about each story. So that's okay, too.
As for prompts, I quite like the idea of a single-word cue - whether of setting, mood, situation or character.
We are not going to use prompts in this literary activity. We are just debating on using this method in an eventual contest in the future.
-"javi2541997;859373"
I get that as well and much appreciate that as well, it appears that contests in this form are constructed in the like manner as self inclusive Russian dolls, with diminishing sizes , vis. In theory at least, the last doll having no presence whatsoever, and the point to that kind of deal may be akin to enjoy the ride, over the image of arriving to the desired (or not) destination.
I really hope that is not what is dissuading you from writing. We try to keep these "competitions" as friendly and light as possible. There is no cash prize or prize whatsoever, just the transient satisfaction of having "won". Really, the "competitive" aspect is just there for those that enjoy it, I hope everyone feels free to ignore it if it isn't their thing.
So far, I've encountered nothing in cyberspace or the walking world that could dissuade me from writing. The only reason I didn't enter the last round was that I was busy editing a novel and completely missed the entry dates.
He'd probably win, so I'm glad he's not here.
Sure, I wish more people liked my stories too. :razz:
Overall I think the stories that have won have deserved their wins. But yeah, as an unpublished author represented by the top fantasy/sci-fi agent in America, I don't think anyone would stand a chance against my brother. So be grateful.
Hmm... About lack of taste. It reminds me of the previous contest when haikus were allowed, and you folks were having fun, laughing at my efforts to explain the poem.
By the way, I think most of the stories have a good quality level. Or do you not like them if they don't approach a James Joyce or Dostoevsky style? :smirk:
Oh my goodness! I will get a 1!
In conversations with friends, usually about music, I always say this. If you like Coldplay, that's fine, and don't be ashamed, but don't try to convince everyone else that it's good music. If you like Ravel, that's fine, but don't try to convince Coldplay fans that it's good music.
There is such a thing as aesthetic taste, and it's not just personal preference, but the problem is that most people assume that their personal preference is the same thing as good aesthetic taste, and it's almost always not.
So, in your case, Joyce and Dostoyesvksy are, arguably, aesthetically good, whereas Dumas is not. Dumas is your taste, so Dumas is your Coldplay, which is fine. But don't try to force it on the rest of us.
To try what? To write a short story in the style of Dumas that doesn't suck? (not saying your stories suck!!)
I thought I was too harsh in my response above, but because you took it in stride, I'lll add this. Do you really think your own personal sense of aesthetic judgement is truly synonymous with a more objective rubric?
I think my aesthetic judgments are reasonably developed and as such I'm able to explain why something in my mind is good. I think too many people confuse enjoyment/pleasure with aesthetic qualities. I enjoy pancakes but it's nothing like a 3-star Michelin's chef 7 course dinner, even if I might enjoy the taste of pancakes more.
Anybody convinced Coldplay is good music wouldn't be a friend of mine but I can still enjoy Coldplay at times.
Literature is kind of the same. I enjoy sci-fi and fantasy but it's no The Count of Monte Christo, which is arguably the best novel ever written.
You most certainly will not! Your stories are comprehensible and relatable.
Wish I had one that didnt act like a dope .
Just learning to listen in, while hanging in is a motto for the day, and as for Dumas?
-punch heard in the background- Ill go for a virtual by novelette titled Thomas Mann reading Remembrances of Things Past
did he, though?
Oh, Vera! Thanks for your kindness. It cheered me up. Yet, I am aware that I have to proofread what I write because the grammar or punctuation of my stories is not that, let's say, perfect, and it is clear that they were written by a non-native speaker...
How many of us write perfect prose in a second language? Or even our native language?
Humility is one of the best characteristics that each person should have, and you have this attitude towards life, so it means you are a worthy person to get along with. :smile:
I don't know how to define 'perfect' prose, but what I attempt to convey is that clarity when you are reading a story. Everything is so well-written and punctuated. If I ever read a story of yours, I will have this feeling of clarity. The stories of @Baden also remind me of this. It is difficult to achieve that clarity or correctness in my writings.
Keep practicing... Let's see in the future!
Clarity and concision are important to me in a short story, though I allow longer flights of description and internal monologue in a novel, where the word-count and punchline don't factor in.
Several quite different styles approach what I consider perfect prose: Thomas Mann and Barbara Kingsolver for example.
But I do like to understand what I'm reading and I do prefer to be confident that what I'm reading is what the author wrote. Joyce does not signify in this context, but Hemingway and Dumas do.
Several quite different styles approach what I consider perfect prose: Thomas Mann and Barbara Kingsolver for example.
But I do like to understand what I'm reading and I do prefer to be confident that what I'm reading is what the author wrote. Joyce does not signify in this context, but Hemingway and Dumas do.
-Vera Mont
I find the above list significant, and totally agree Ulysses to border on insignificance, unless reading into it for searching for significance and an overt allusion to it reveals its self through a complex web of signs, which skirt the danger of reasserting fragments into narratives that originally have seceded the literal form of insert with the figurative form of assert
The etymology is offers a link between characters in the novel, but it is illusive, as such the case between the person named Bloom and another person called Virag
Now that link can be addressed on request, but if I may focus on another vague connection, that has direct to my mind mystical overtones that are brought to light by a part in the novel titled Lotus Eaters .
It is extremely significant that this became apparent to me not while searching for a significance before chanting the Lotus S?tra, -a Mah?y?na S?tra ages old, that the shift in my pronunciation changed to a Sanskrit word renge; meaning flower , in English.
The final surprise was learning that the MS was composed in Trieste, a former territory belonging to the Austro-Hungarian Empire before the loss of which ,occurring at the conclusion of WWI.
Point is, significance looses its relevance, in line with the entropic issue that is inversely proportional to progressive structural complexity.
One of my psychiatric managers said that he thought the music of Coldplay should be played as late night music on the ward every night. That is because it is so boring that all the patients would sleep. I actually like Coldplay, and it shows that taste is subjective. We probably all have differing ideas of what works in fiction and doesn't, just like our opinions of Coldplay.
Really? I tried three or four times and found it simply unreadable.
-Jack Cummins
The significance of Ulysses belies in its undertow of a complex web , that may be uncovered by the paranormal phenomena that connects the reader with the writer.
Even dogs smell the truth in not biting the hand that feeds it, and I wish I could bark up the right tree to express what cold play means , hoping such near censored pieces that covers similar topics; such as One flew Over the Cocoos Nest, is not too far afield from ecce homo, and to link it to current Royal goings on - hinging politics and psychology.
The involvement into the Eastern arts of thought Carries some danger of misrepresentation.
-Bers Mont
I really did not express to be cold, and the need to understand is more difficult at seems then to write about it, and of course , you are right, but the pull into Ulysses is so strong, that it confounds the reason that regulates an adequate aesthetic distance.
The phrases are cut by the words from their composite meaning as a hole, and abstract sound bites . as if a pointillistic painting if observed too close , draws one into individual senses of parts, over the meaning of the whole piece.
It failed to pull me. Actually, your prose reminds me a little of Joyce's.
I actually am a fan of Coldplay myself. But I consider them a "guilty pleasure" in the same way I enjoy American fast food everyone once and awhile; I thoroughly enjoyed some Wendy's at the airport on my flight to see my parents for Thanksgiving.
But that's my point; I can enjoy Coldplay or Wendy's, but I'm not going to try to convince anyone it's actually all that good. Compare that to maybe Radiohead when it comes to bands, and something like Shake Shack when it comes to burgers. They're much higher quality versions of what they are, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the "lower quality" versions from time to time as well.
And no, it is not 'agreed' or 'consented' as the translator says.
A 'consentida' is a girl who always receives everything she asks for pleasure or entertainment. I can't find that specific adjective in English!
But this is why I am so interested in languages. It is amazing how many words we use to express ourselves across the world. :smile:
So don't translate it? But it sounds like "spoiled" to me.
Spoiled feels like it has different connotations to me. It's usually applied to kids and is gender neutral. A doting lover wouldn't "spoil" their female partner except euphemistically, but maybe a consentida just naturally has doters. I guess it would depend on whether a consentida is morally neutral too?
Who knows.
Feels different. Like Karens aren't the protagonists in trashy multiple suitor romance novels.
Our friendship was already balancing on a knife edge and now this.
Ha! good try, friends. But it is not 'spoiled' because this word is translated into Spanish as 'mimado or mimada,' and as fdrake said, it is usually applied to kids.
Consentida has a different sense than spoiled. While 'spoiled' is more related to manners and education, a consentida is focused on interests. For example: Javi bought the new car which his girlfriend was asking about. She is a consentida.
Note that this word can be sexist, and it was usually used when women depended on men's income back in the day.
in American, 'princess' usually refers to the daughter of parents who have wealth and social status; their children are accustomed to having everything they desire, being able to choose and discard romantic partners and always winning. Overindulged and capricious young women like Daisy Buchanan in The Great Gatsby. Sometimes the same effect is achieved through unusual beauty or talent, charisma or guile, like Eva Peron.
I don't think there is precise word in English. But then, every language has some particularly apt words or phrases that don't translate precisely -- but English has a way of assimilating them, like 'prima donna'
'schadenfreude' and 'denouement'.
AFAICT, Coldplay are the innovators of that saccharine, milquetoast non-rock that persists even to this day, which has led to the complete and total annihilation of the whole genre. That would make them. very literally, the single worst band in history.
It seems out of the ordinary not to express events and feelings as did I? Not really the copy and paste type understanding of Ulysses but then certainly in that vogue.
And pleased for not really be given the cold shoulder, but then woke up this morning and found being out of joint, confused , but actually with all those characters whom I missed parading before, while in inexcusable slumbers , but as such , the stark naked reality is that , as my long gone therapist suggested, we are crashing as humans and are afraid of becoming digitalized as some bound to be agents, who must , simply must have reality imitate art, the art of forging if not friends, but the feeling attained that no, we share our defiance not to plunge headlong into the retro fitted cave we came from, the air conditioned nightmare that built along fabulous coastlines, etc.
I believe in long engagements, but honestly coming from someone who has put all eggs in the same basket, have to tiny toe ever carefully , unless it be a course of broken shells, which contained only a vacuous bouquet of past dreams, a could have been turned to has been.
Other scenes ? Other dreams, past that when all said and done is reduced to the mimicry, the only grasped straw still not down there among the faintly silver is green swarm of everything sunk since when.
Sorry, again mea maxima culpa .
I have no idea what you're sorry for. I didn't understand any of that ^^^ post.
Best band ever because that whole genre is "meh".
Er-hem! You're not making new friends here....
Quoting Vera Mont
Benkei, as a good Dutchman, can be edgy oftentimes.
Is that a the correct word for it? Ok - I don't speak Dutch.
Hollandaise sauce.
:grimace:
I was just listening to Jon Hassell yesterday, I swear. And I promise my short story will be sufficiently weird and not main stream. I promise!
Quoting javi2541997
Love it.
Well, as we say in Swahili, certain words are "vigumu kutafsiri kwa usahihi."
I don't know if you believe in coincidences, but I am currently reading a book by Abdulrazak Gurnah, and he uses Swahili in some dialogues through the characters he created in an imaginary village in Zanzibar.
Swahili + short stories thread + 2021 Nobel prize literature laureate = a beautiful coincidence.
I actually believe the opposite in that there are no coincidences.
So when are you two getting married?
We already did! Clarky and Jamal were the witnesses, but we decided to keep it a secret. The marriage certificate was issued by the Val d'Aran council, which is a non-recognized country, so our marriage has no legal sustainability. :worry:
-Unenlightened
Second the motion, congratulations !
At the bottom of every post, just to the right of the time stamp there is an invisible arrow followed by three dots. when you click the invisible arrow, this happens:[ reply="Hanover;860247"] or this: ( I have added a space before 'reply' to Hanover so it shows you what it looks like instead of doing the job, which is twofold; it links your post back to the one you are relying to in case people have been so rude as to talk across you, and it informs the person themselves that your reply is awaiting them.
But don't click the three dots - that's the fire alarm.
Edit: Except on your own posts, it's also the edit button, so you can put out your own flames before they spread.
Love is not having to say your sorry.
Love is not having to say your sorry
Erich Segal ,1970
I don't get it, mate.
Do you actually mean 'you are' rather than 'your' 'sorry'?
Do you actually mean 'you are' rather than 'your' 'sorry'?
-javi2541997
Yes, and or no, this is the Gordons knot a gnostic Christian has to dive with an Occhams Razor the Gordons Knot, the idea R.D. Laing tried to simplify, by the doubly bound process he called knots as a real effect, rather then mere adoption of another masked affect.
Such simplification from from psychic -ontic manifestations to a political, ontological metaphor, has a cost, in psychic value, denoting the inverse metaphorical process to the bioethical considerations attached to it.
This is why this view was in vogue, while Marcuses One Dimensional man was in print and favorably received at a time when riding on Szaszs coattails presented a semblance of a unified front, that e appeared as if it would soon become functional.
That time is not far off, and ok with those, who feel that the mechanics of of simulation are nearly caught up to an easily derived authentic understanding.
That is what I really meant that apologies of structural change, can withstand apologia with love becoming the glue, by which a humanistic goal of it can become manifest.
I will push the three buttons , (see above) , when some assurance will manifest that the flames described do so with a more than probable certainty of sympathy than the other way around.
Agape is all self inclusive, it can not conceive me, without the need for atonement, at the end of the day.
So here it goes, hoping the flames never die, as it is cast.
That's dumb. Being in a loving relationship means your ego isn't in the way to say sorry when you make mistakes.
-Benkei
In a loving relationship , the need to say youre sorry is understood , as a mutual and unconditional binding faith between two lovers. No need to say what that understanding entails,
for such observation requires a third person , a witness whois able to interpret the unspoken words for which no interpretation can be recollected, nor expected. Unexpressed feelings meant only for the purpose of intimating communicating
loves imprimatur, that require no stage but the divine unseen witness of supernaturally begotten Faith.
That is why couples should think that it is not dumb to silently embrace the long held promise to keep each other for ever, for richer or poorer, in sickness or in health, onto death do us part.
What is understood needs no elucidation.
-Vera Mont
None to speak of, but lots and lots of secrets and mysteries hidden from the world , unfathomable as the read tea leaves, and subtle as a delayed lightning after a longer roar of thunder.
Not to me! I'm avoiding the blank screen of Chapter 3 - very successfully, so far. Today I gave myself permission and it feels just fine.
Agreed. :death:
Giving oneself permission to be unproductive sounds wonderful, but not so wise when working a new job like myself. If one's job is to write, or edit, as it seems like it might be with you, it does sound nice; healthy even.
In the world of contests entered voluntarily, lack of productivity is simply one's own choice, and one has only oneself to blame for it; or not, depending on how much value one places on the contest.
180 Proof
A wise man is superior to any insults which can be put upon him, and the best reply to unseemly behavior is patience and moderation.
moliere
-Noble Dust
Either or, or either or/and either or both OR all or none of the above
- Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead.
Benjamin Franklin
I realized
None, or, most likely all
Could, at times, sometimes, MAYBE, truncate in a way that was...smallishly...
Bigoted.
But not as stated in an alabastered way where all was white and pure and beauty. Not specifically, even. Not even this. But. Keeping secrets is often beneficial, but also ultimately not so abrasive that it harms voraciously, but just so much and enough that it reeks a bit of the self-degredation that can deteriorate one's sense of being platonically at a place of truly a sense of, not always, but normally, a true being of place within what's categorically real, at least as Lacan sees it sometimes.
Blisteringly, I wantonly re-read this, with some adroit remorse, incidentally. But, as it occurs, I feel less than senses of badness; more generally, a burgeoning sense of explicit enumeration of ideas. Typical of such a thing, I regress.
*swoon!* Classy gobbledygook!
Quoting Noble Dust
I'm retired and the time I waste is coming out of my rapidly dwindling sojourn on this planet. With a novel, you sometimes have to wait for elements to coalesce. I've had to abandon a couple of projects when it didn't happen, but it usually does. I find Chapter 3 the biggest obstacle: I've written the intro - the people and setting I was sure of - and now I have to find a way to introduce a conflict. I distrust conflict. I have to circle it, the way a dog sizes up a new sofa. A cat will simply leap on it, take possession of the center two thirds - done and done. I sometimes envy cats.
-Noble Dust
Yes. , and we are truly not competing,
-Vera Mott
Honestly , sleep at night is wonderful if there is a sixth left on either side, but Platon through Meno paradoxically keeps me in the loop by constant reminder literally ticking the minutes away. Forced early retirement can damp things, if one can develop the idea of a self worthy to make every little thing relevant between twilight and down, I used to be enamored by the sweet music that crickets play , and that is telling of how universal and eternally lasting scenes can be by themself , cut off of all significance but just that.
It needs no further clarification, justification, origination, just letting it be is abundance impersonified.
Clever advice, Vera. You have more experience with writing, and you can give us a lot of wisdom and opinions coming from your own perspective of writing novels. I personally think that writing a book is one of the objectives that needs patience the most. It seems it takes time to put together all the pieces of the puzzle until you can see the mosaic done.
To be honest, I started the short story I will share in this contest a few months ago. I did this because I wanted to experience what you are referring to: waiting for the necessary time until I consider the pieces of my story are together.
I am currently tweaking my story as well.
I am curious. You are a non-native speaker like me, so I wonder if you write your story first in Dutch and then translate it into English, or you just use English from the beginning.
It varies greatly by book and by author. In my region, there was a charity event where writers spent a single holiday weekend at a lodge and they each produced a novel in three days. They were allowed to bring outline sketches and research material only. One local author published four short novels as a quite successful detective series.
OTOH, my first SF novel took 40 years to complete. Things happened: job, moves, marriage, kids, parents, building a house, California and other contracts, visiting relatives from abroad, illness, a couple of deaths.... The sequel to that book was done in seven months. You just never know - it takes the time it takes.
I admire your patience and perseverance. You have dedicated more time to a novel than I have lived to date.
Not my credit, exactly. I gave up several times. But The Old Man - who was quite young, back then - kept nagging that he wanted to read it, and whenever possible, gave me the time to work on it.
I understand. Do you personally think that a novel is an individualist or collectivist project? I always considered writers as lonely or taciturn people. Murakami said that a novelist needs much time just for himself, making this art individualistic. Maybe it is based on the experiences of each writer.
understand. Do you personally think that a novel is an individualist or collectivist project? I always considered writers as lonely or taciturn people. Murakami said that a novelist needs much time just for himself, making this art individualistic. Maybe it is based on the experiences of each writer.
jav2541997
Since I agree, totally that writing should be a communal effort, I take the liberty to reply , since I am a firm believer in tying discontinuity within an organized community of writers, regardless of how wide a gap exists between various thought content.
I know, Vera is reluctant to pick and choose between various shades of implied references, insofar as trying to ascertain where it ties into the overal plot, but , we all do this in varying degrees, and part of the challenge is to form as closely knit flows which describe , as best as possible, the agreed upon communal direction of where the succession of images is heading.
That requires a lot of back and forth juggling between images, the imagination and the cohesive translation into some meaningful rhetoric.
The liscence I take with this interjection is to my mind a fitting one, based on a kind of Emily Dickinson-ish isolation within contexts, situations, genres, and of course the aformentioned dual linguistic considerations.
So, if you come to the conclusion that there is something strange in this approach, then , air it, for gokking, strangely, can not always be justified in a strange land, where double talk is relegated into negative connotation.
The secret world, of the undercurrents that move silently may have a very visually clear motion (motive) from the birds eye view, however tadpoles and mature frogs may speak in a different language,
Yes writing is very difficult, and as the late Henry Miller commented on tv, before his passing maybe a month later, and I can not quote verbatim ,
he said something like this:
That if I knew back in the day how difficult and gut wrenching writing could become, I would have instead opt for a career in truck driving. Something like that.
I've heard of good collaborations and read a few examples and actually edited a story that resulted from the contribution of four or five posters on a forum. For most authors, I think it's an individualistic undertaking - personal vision, inner landscape and so forth - but if my own experience is anything to go by, the product benefits from some discussion with friends, colleagues or spouses.
-Javi2541957
Yes . The content , it appears to me is suggestive of carrying more weight than what it may signify, and I suppose that it inclines toward contention on a basic level, the basic apprehension that Everyman has to contend with: vis: the future problem assailing every man about recollecting the fast fade of what may a narrative mean , as it was originally intended .
The evolving genre as of the shrinking future, despair of assuming the use of tablets which are upgraded almost yearly now, and using pre packaged goods to use literary shortcuts, that may undermine those assumptions , and ultimately who knows what?
These opinions are bounced around so much and increasingly so, as to make Everyman come to the realization, that they somehow mystically participated in the writing of the book, and such signals they receive assume an inherent , mystery that underwrites a negative of individual artists writing as truly singular .
The inspiration comes from such previously uncollected-uncollectible content, that is increasingly being presented as technically compensated.
Dunno, but the vain thought of an author in search of characters is apparently been reversed.
Javi2541997
Javi2541997
Yes, and as time goes on, the discovery and recovery of apparently lost works reveals the relevance of singularly lost mss. The authority of sources and their link to their characterization of content may become obsolete.
That may offer some consolation to those singular characters.
it's all the same to me as long as it can be exciting and goes around the world. They understand death, they stand there in the church under the skies that have a beginningless past and go into the never-ending future, waiting themselves for death, at the foot of the dead, in a holy temple.
-Jack Kerouac
I pop in here to mention an old friend of mine, Michael Fain, who collaborated with his wife, Judith Barnard, to produce the best sellers under "Judith Michael". At the beginning they were barely getting by, but decided to go all out with writing a novel. Judy did most of the actual writing and Michael, with his engineering background, did the research.
And, famously, Will and Ariel Durant.
Or like knowing you will die at the end of the month, and sitting in your chair, watching the clock go tick... tick... tick...
I can't do anything but motivate you with a hot and dark cup of coffee and toast with tomatoes and olive oil.
-Benkei
or trying to figure what outfit to wear after the party
Without any impressionable allusions or apprehensions either?
But then, the show must absolutely go on, as Raj Kapoor Saab so notably expressed it, and for which all liscence, poetic or otherwise need to be unsuspended
Ha? -haha
Jgill
As nasty as it may be, plagues have always been troublesome, during the dark ages, up to half of the European population was wiped out, recently it struck again, but it did not devastate the world nearly as much.
We are more enlightened in many ways as to where werre heading.
Meanwhile, as Vera pointed out, the clock is ticking, as we must put out something, for we signed up for it. May our interest and participation never wane.
If only people would care to read them... This is the main struggle of each writer, I guess. Wondering if the stories will end up being read by the public.
That's because, as of 2018 writers outnumber readers.
Okay, maybe it's an exaggeration. But with the advancements in word-processing, writing requires so little effort now that anyone with a half-assed idea can be a writer. I was briefly involved in an on-line workshop (since defunct) where I saw so many examples of truly bad creative writing, it was downright disheartening. At the same time, passive entertainments of every kind have become so ubiquitous, people simply can't be bothered to read. When I was still going to a job every morning, a few younger passengers had transistor radios with earphones, but for adults it was common to read a newspaper or pocket-book on the subway. Now, everyone is playing or watching a game on their cellphone.
I don't know how anyone ever wrote anything without word processors. You want to rearrange something? Get some scissors and tape, buddy.
I see nothing easy about writing with a word processor.
But now we have AI. There should probably be a rule against AI submissions.
Exactly. I take the train every morning to go to the place I work. It takes twelve stations to get there. When I am on the train, I always read my books. I even feel comfortable because I don't like crowded places, so I can escape into my own world. Nonetheless, I usually feel a bit out of place because I am the only one reading a paper book; the rest of the passengers are watching Netflix or even making noise with their video games...
The source, the artificiality of reproduction means everything (to me)and less so the reception , everyone, rather that any one may prove beyond the shadow of doubt, yes, there are always two, of anyone.
3 stars, tops. Feels forced. @Bella fekete is the master of this form.
Vera Mont
Exactly. I take the train every morning to go to the place I work. It takes twelve stations to get there. When I am on the train, I always read my books. I even feel comfortable because I don't like crowded places, so I can escape into my own world. Nonetheless, I usually feel a bit out of place because I am the only one reading a paper book; the rest of the passengers are watching Netflix or even making noise with their video games...
-Vera Mott
-javi2541997
I relate strongly to the suggestion of becoming uncomfortable while being the only reader, when all around there are merely listeners. Another thing is traveling to work is a slightly different feeling when your work travels with you, your travels are your work, and it feels like a destination itself is in transit. The workplace is both getting there and being there simultaneously.
Perhaps forgetting the forced, maybe, nuances between transitive and in transitive kinds of expressions, as the link to movement , time and space.
But not as stated in an alabastered way where all was white and pure and beauty. Not specifically, even. Not even this. But. Keeping secrets is often beneficial, but also ultimately not so abrasive that it harms voraciously, but just so mu@Bella feketech and enough that it reeks a bit of the self-degredation that can deteriorate one's sense of being platonically at a place of truly a sense of, not always, but normally, a true being of place within what's categorically real, at least as Lacan sees it sometimes.
Noble Dust
hypericin
Being there, mars existence to various shades, degrees of probable and improbable shifts in outlook, inner strength, and ideally present a picture at wits end. That such state directs a glean of admixture between progressing hope or relentless despair, maybe is akin to the horse whipped and forced to limit the patience by which measure reason can counfound an effective response.
As it was perhaps meant to by a long line of ideals turned into idolatry, some measurable overtones must be sang, if not expressed. The reason dictates, but gives up at the last hour to intuit virtually all unscrambled patterns into some would consider the depth of depravity, the den of iniquity.
The poor horse whinnies and whines, without any ones knowledge of what they can think with visors on?
That's because you are one of those writers who want to produce something worthwhile. It's easy if you don't care what. I was a pretty good editor, until I could no longer stomach the mss I had to deal with.
hypericin
That's because you are one of those writers who want to produce something worthwhile. It's easy if you don't care what. I was a pretty good editor, until I could no longer stomach the mss I had to deal with.
And yet, what does it worth a man, when all is said and done, near the time of recollection, from said denizen likened to den of evil, that the last men, reflected from ancient frugality, a fleur de Mal of pittance gunned to the wind?
Sorry all, but the islands in the stream again avoid forfeiture they must, oblige no bliss.
:groan: I tried.
as if to say, that hope for never having to say your sorry become a mantra by now
Of course. I would only bother to write dross if I needed money, and the dross would provide it. But the dross market must be tough these days.
Otherwise, what's the point?
But even dross must be exhausting to write. I mean, you know its crap, so you get no pleasure or satisfaction from writing it. Long, tedious labor.
Only, a lot of would-be writers don't know it's crap. They're hurt, offended and sometimes abusive if you even try to suggest improvement.
And guessing thats for the good of any concerned, including the writer. Again that may be true for every one , knowingly or not, foreshadowed or shadowed, supposedly or not .
Hardened skins need cover the impervious or the naive.
a) triggerable sensitization (or hypersensitization, if sensitivity was already there)
b) non-triggered but still predictable behavior due to hyposensitization (or a return to normal sensitization)
c) normal sensitization
Follow up question:
Define normal sensitization (triggered just right?), hyposensitization (untriggerable?), and hyper(too triggerable?)sensitization?
Follow up to the follow up:
Can normal sensitization mask itself as untriggerable or too triggerable, and thus be mislabeled by others? If so couldnt that wonkify any experiments designed to answer the first question?
Final follow up (to the follow up to the follow up):
Couldnt, too, an incorrect definition/interpretation of normal sensitization?
Just one more reason you cannot do science without philosophy.
-Ichthus77
If you see this, then I will be so much more be inclined to go on. It really is hard to set sights to order, in anew milaeu.
just saying
Return to Byzantium
It is no mere coincidence that the title is apropo, but it will be the only poem published by yours truly, accompanied by sketches of real passage.
We are due in Athens December 23, two days before Christmas, and cross to the old capital Constantinople. A little background here, I am and always was a Lonesome Traveler ( another book no relation except one by random association), of purely a literary one) and will annotate with it, if can find a copy.
The travel is unimaginately unaffordable, in fact in the middle of Winter, and both Greece and Turkey can be quite cold at that time of year,
Never read Yates Sailing to Byzantium, but herewith paste it;
Sailing to Byzantium
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For the novella by Robert Silverberg, see Sailing to Byzantium (novella).
Sailing to Byzantium
That is no country for old men. The young
In one another's arms, birds in the trees
Those dying generations at their song,
The salmon?falls, the mackerel?crowded seas,
Fish, flesh, or fowl, commend all summer long
Whatever is begotten, born, and dies.
Caught in that sensual music all neglect
Monuments of unageing intellect.
An aged man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul clap its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress,
Nor is there singing school but studying
Monuments of its own magnificence;
And therefore I have sailed the seas and come
To the holy city of Byzantium.
O sages standing in God's holy fire
As in the gold mosaic of a wall,
Come from the holy fire, perne in a gyre,
And be the singing?masters of my soul.
Consume my heart away; sick with desire
And fastened to a dying animal
It knows not what it is; and gather me
Into the artifice of eternity.
Once out of nature I shall never take
My bodily form from any natural thing,
But such a form as Grecian goldsmiths make
Of hammered gold and gold enamelling
To keep a drowsy Emperor awake;
Or set upon a golden bough to sing
To lords and ladies of Byzantium
Of what is past, or passing, or to come.
"Sailing to Byzantium" is a poem by William Butler Yeats, first published in the 1927 reprint of Stories of Red Hanrahan and the Secret Rose,[1] and then in the 1928 collection The Tower. It comprises four stanzas in ottava rima, each made up of eight lines of iambic pentameter. It uses a journey to Byzantium (Constantinople) as a metaphor for a spiritual journey. Yeats explores his thoughts and musings on how immortality, art, and the human spirit may converge. Through the use of various poetic techniques, Yeats's "Sailing to Byzantium" describes the metaphorical journey of a man pursuing his own vision of eternal life as well as his conception of paradise.
Synopsis
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Written in 1926 (when Yeats was 60 or 61), "Sailing to Byzantium" is Yeats' definitive statement about the agony of old age and the imaginative and spiritual work required to remain a vital individual even when the heart is "fastened to a dying animal" (the body). Yeats's solution is to leave the country of the young and travel to Byzantium, where the sages in the city's famous gold mosaics could become the "singing-masters" of his soul. He hopes the sages will appear in fire and take him away from his body into an existence outside time, where, like a great work of art, he could exist in "the artifice of eternity." This is a reference to the legend that when the Turks entered the church (Hagia Sophia) in 1453, the priests who were singing the Divine Liturgy took up the sacred vessels and disappeared into the wall of the church, where they will stay and only come out when the church is returned to Christendom (see Timothy Gregory, A History of Byzantium, page 337). In the final stanza of the poem, he declares that once he is out of his body he will never again appear in the form of a natural thing; rather, he will become a golden bird, sitting on a golden tree, singing of the past ("what is past"), the present (that which is "passing"), and the future (that which is "to come").
The Golden Bough is a reference to the Aeneid, book VI, by the Roman poet Virgil (7019 BC), where it is offered as a gift by Trojan hero Aeneas to Proserpina to enter the gate of the underworld. Aeneas' father Anchises describes the spirit inside every body
The seeds of life
fiery is their force, divine their birth, but they
are weighed down by the bodies' ills or dulled
by earthly limbs and flesh that's born for death.
That is the source of all men's fears and longings,
joys and sorrows, nor can they see the heavens' light,
shut up in the body's tomb, a prison dark and deep.
(Aeneid VI:843-848)
This describes the tension between physicality and spirituality, mortality and immortality, which are the themes of this poem.
Interpretation
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Yeats wrote in a draft script for a 1931 BBC broadcast:
I am trying to write about the state of my soul, for it is right for an old man to make his soul, and some of my thoughts about that subject I have put into a poem called 'Sailing to Byzantium'. When Irishmen were illuminating the Book of Kells, and making the jeweled croziers in the National Museum, Byzantium was the centre of European civilization and the source of its spiritual philosophy, so I symbolize the search for the spiritual life by a journey to that city.[2]
John Crowe Ransom comments: "The prayer is addressed to holy sages who dwell I know not where; it does not seem to matter where, for they seem qualified to receive the prayer, and it is a qualified and dignified prayer."[3]
Epifanio San Juan writes that the action of the poem "occurs in the tension between memory and desire, knowledge and intuition, nature and history, subsumed within a vision of eternal order".[4]
Cleanth Brooks asks whether, in this poem, Yeats chooses idealism or materialism and answers his own question, "Yeats chooses both and neither. One cannot know the world of being save through the world of becoming (though one must remember that the world of becoming is a meaningless flux aside from the world of being which it implies)".[5]
Just for edification and color pasted athmosphere, and please take this as my sign of undeniably impatient creduality.
Against a backdrop of global turbulence, brought on by increasing uncertainty, merely based on a paradoxical intuited basis of loss of memory(history) a decomposed illusion of deconstructed fall into the cave from which eyes stare back as natural decomposition attempts to gain back whats been lost? To reassert a review of history so as not to require a total blank out for failure that very lesson was meant not to repeat ad nauseum
So go on, until: ? (Learning structural procedure to signify the bluish demarcations and stuff, so elementary dear Watson.
Warning: too little knowledge is dangerous as those nasty viruses.
Bella fekete
-as a natural recompense (AI)
I spent about five minutes on a writing forum recently. It was a "workshop" for fantasy/sci-fi novel writers. The first thread I clicked on, some guy was explaining how he was struggling with writing a certain part, a long, boring (his word) description of travel from one place to another. Then he said, "I figured it out, and got through it! I just had to write it really quickly, without thinking too much." I was like, ohhhhkay! Explains a lot!
Holidays are, after all, generally, the busiest time of year.
I find myself coming up with "scenes" of what I would deem to be great novels fairly often. You know the kind, those that grip the reader in a surreal, unique, transcendental moment of emotion and understanding that seem to transport the reader into the scene as if they were standing next to the narrator or part of the story. Sometimes, if lucky, I can come up with two or three that can be linked into one larger story. Then it becomes a simple matter of working backwards, filling in the story that led up to the scenes and ultimate resolution including creating the backstory and "life" or "personality" of any involved characters, so as the reader "gets to know" or even better progresses with the character(s) themself. Some might find that a little odd compared to the traditional linear format of start to end but, for better or worse, that's just how my mind seems to work (or not work)...
I remember another author here mention he works in a similar fashion as well. Unfortunately I am dreadfully behind on both business and personal affairs so will unlikely be able to find the creative, non-rushed free time to pen one this competition. Which is of no great loss seeing as the stories I create tend to be received with obligatory politeness only as they generally tailor or appeal to my narrow line of interests and peculiar curiosities alone.
Four so far; just the early birds. It would seem there's no in between them and us procrastinators...
I either a) come up with a "seed line" and just keep following it or, failing that, move my fingers across the keyboard until something good comes out. I don't believe in writer's block as such because it's the easiest thing in the world to write, at least if you're an inner monologue type person. You simply allow your inner voice to externalise itself. The only thing preventing that is laziness or time constraints--or maybe embarrassment that what you're writing is utter trash but what you're writing is utter trash because you haven't been writing, and this is the bind you get yourself in that pleading writer's block is a subterfuge to get you out of. I'm talking about me here and I'm writing out my inner voice now in all its trashy inelegant reality as a demonstration in a way because i have very little motivation to write this post, but see, I did it, I wrote something. I ain't blocked, I'm just not setting the world on fire in terms of literary quality.
:up: I may attempt a more linear flowing approach and see where it takes me instead of having a grand concept, which doesn't seem to be getting me anywhere. I'd just like to submit something even if it's not that great. And I've been a bit creatively stifled recently and need to break out of that.
My writing right now is pruning the weeds that obscure my exotic plants and flowers. The weeds keep growing and so much so that that's all there seems to be and cutting them is a pain, especially when there are more and more underneath and all pruning seems to do is remind you of how much you have neglected your garden to the point where you wonder if you really have a garden or just a bunch of weeds such as seem to make up most of the world around you. But you must have a garden, otherwise you have nowhere to go.
Especially true for the aged. Have an end of life project that keeps you thinking, hoping to expire before its completion.
I thought I had that last year. But the damn thing got finished, so now I have to work on a much more difficult sequel.
I've never been able to access that, interesting that it comes so easily to you. What I write is always rehearsed and constructed in my head, rather than the raw monologue. The raw monologue is typically too fast to capture in writing, and too illogical. Writing for me is a slow process.
Sometimes this ability to construct sentences just doesn't work very well. I might get out a few sentences, but they suck, and I delete them later anyway. That is writer's block to me.
All you have to do is write one true sentence. Write the truest sentence that you know.
You know what happens?
That sentence sits there on the page, complete and self-contained and utterly inert.
Interesting. I could and have at times kept going for twenty pages of that trash and sometimes something good comes out. But yes, the only thing stopping me writing, or maybe it's just scribbling, is laziness. Having said that, most of what I write that I consider good is quite edited and restructured. So one way or another the process ends up being rather slow too.
This beautiful metaphor would suggest that once you've written enough, you'll no longer have anything to say, in the best sense, and have no choice but to just let what remains, the exotic plants and flowers, glow. What that means for us who are trying to write stories with no leads, I don't know. I like it, though. And I probably misread your meanderings.
I am full of shit. But one must fertilize the soil. :razz:
Ain't we all? The cultural soil is all the better for us setting it out in print.
Please, don't hesitate to, er, contribute your droppings to our little garden of motivation..?
When I finished proofreading and tweaking the paragraphs, I shouted: ¡SALUD! and I drank a shot of Sake.
Who is the naive writer that writes without having booze next to his desktop?
Respect. :up:
When do our stories get published to the website, shortly after new year's day?
Theyll be posted January 1st. But dont give me too much grief if its on the 2nd. :joke:
I'm reviewing my story and getting to the depressing conclusion it isn't good enough. The idea is fine but execution is crap this time.
I am afraid to admit to the apparent foolishness of even trying to go beyond what I originally intended, namely : a modern rewrite of Sailing to Byzantium ; the theme which seem to fit into Christopher Bookers seven types of stories. One of the seven designated as Voyage and Return could be worked into some framework, but given the time left contrasted to the time left to complete it, gives me an unaffordable pause.
Absolutely no grief from me. I much appreciate the hard work done by you and the other facilitators of this short story fest. More power to you and Jan 2nd is just fine with me.
Not me! Although I think that my booze is more for Dutch courage. Am I the only one who gets an attack of the nerves at just the thought of pressing that 'send' button?
If you care about formatting, please send a pastebin link rather than text. If you send text, the formatting will be lost when the story is copy-pasted into its post.
Don't make @Noble Dust format everything for you, he will have his hands full on Jan 1 already!
Thanks
Just press the button mate, it will not happen anything dangerous. Trust me, this is a safe place. Although we can all seem a bit off.
Quoting hypericin
:up:
Thank you both for taking care of this contest.
Maybe a bit more editing. But I will be submitting. :smile:
Still time. :strong:
Good point.
Kawabata thought the same about 'Heike monogatari' a very old Japanese short story. He stated that this piece of art would be impossible to translate into Western languages because even the Japanese have difficulties to understand the kanjis... Nonetheless, there are some versions of Heike in our languages. At least our translators gave a try...
I remember seeing a Latin language using a variation of "inregistrare" for check-in, but I can't remember now.
Interesting. Although it is true we usually say 'aplicación', it is more commonly used 'apps' at least in the written language.
Are you from Portugal? Are you a neighbor of the Iberian Peninsula? Or Brazil? Or... Timor-Leste?:smile:
We need that Plum Pie sequel dude.
You did some micro stories. Just take that approach, elongate it to 500 words and youre in.
In the plum pie sequel a couple decide to spice up the holidays by cooking up a massive Christmas pudding to have sex in. There's your conceit. Work out the details later. You're welcome.
Send that idea to @Hanover, not me or Jamal.
I was referring to the buns Im currently baking in my own oven, but nine.
I know. I was referring to the entries as meaning the number of buns you had in your oven.
I know you are but what am I?
My head just fucking exploded.
I have stepped back and admired its brilliance a few times since. Just know it awaits you at the top of the year and gives you something to look forward to.
You'll never identify me as the author I'm quite sure. Not this time.
Dubliners was written in a similar rush of energy. The most important stories appear suddenly. They are not plotted.
Quoting Hanover
That would mean you changed your style because Hanoverian writing is easily recognizable. As well as I recognize Dostoviesky or a Haiku poem.
"Important" is probably the best description of my entry.
Quoting javi2541997
Mentioning me, Joyce, and Dostoevsky in the same post makes sense. We afterall composed the first literary rat pack.
Are your buns made of cream? Because I am currently eating a creamy roscón with coffee, and maybe we can both share a beautiful Christmas coincidence.
My buns are made with tears, existential dread and procrastination.
Here you go:
I love your ironic speech, but my knowledge is limited, and I sometimes wonder if you are speaking ironically or having a real existential crisis.
Sorry Jav. A good rule of thumb is that if you see me and @Hanover interacting at all, its probably a joke.
There's a story right there. A whole movie, in fact.
'Jav' - I really like this nickname! It would never have occurred to me, mate!
Quoting Noble Dust
I'll keep it in mind!
Excellent example of accidental ambiguous irony. Had I said this, it would have been obnoxious sarcasm. With you, endearing kindness.
True that, Handy.
I wasn't being ironical, but allegorical! :razz:
You need to ensure the delay happens after you get there. Otherwise, yes of course, you will factor it into your arrival time.
Quoting Hanover
No no no. What if you catch your flight by accident?
This is a contest here, you can't leave these things to chance.
Quoting Vera Mont
But then how can I write it? By its own method? No, too cutely postmodernist, I don't like it.
Hopefully your plane wont go down, and the diverse group of people around you all respond in different ways based on their own personal realities
Oof, that would be bad. The only thing worse would be if the plane goes down, and everyone creates their own strained diversions to avoid confronting the reality of the imminent crash in a manner allegorical of our own studied indifference to climate change but then literally no one gets it.
:grimace:
Pack a firearm in your carry on with the barrel sticking out. That should derail you for days, years even. If you somehow get through security unnoticed, fire off a round to be safe. You can't let them board you or you'll never win this contest
You just have to carefully consider where you are flying from. Texas, you might just get moved to priority boarding.
:scream:
Jesus, that's haunting.
Winning story right here, folks. Grab it while you can.
As it happens: like a witness statement. Or internal dialogue.
Of course, if you don't like that, there is another option in the same situation: watch people at the airport until you spot one who is behaving oddly and make up a story about that.
A lot less expensively, go to the nearest mall or hardware store and watch people there.
Matzah.
:cool:
Time continues it's inexorable march forward. Tick, tock, tick, tock... the clock unwinds its spring, entirely indifferent to entreaty, pleading, complaint, negotiation, and we all fall face-first, helpless, hapless, towards that inevitable moment: 12/31/2023, 23:59 UTC. Only one avenue exists to escape a soul-crushing, temporal impact collision: write!
This has been a public service announcement to all remaining procrastinators, yours truly included.
We all thank you for your service :clap:
True. At least, I will be very happy if the feedback on my short story is not only focused on grammar. This will mean a big improvement in my writing.
One point for me, because this time I used spaces between the paragraphs, not like the last time. There are writers who do not use spaces between paragraphs and they write excellent books. But I must be humble and accept that, if I am not that good, why shouldn't I use spaces between paragraphs?
I find the hubris associated with spaceless paragraphing contemptuous, so I appreciate your new found humility in this regard.
with spaces
I didnt wake up on November 29th, 2023. The day prior I remember vividly. I drove two hours into western Minnesota to replace some fuses in a pad-mount transformer. Easy job when you bring the right fuses. I wasnt prepared to stand outside in the freezing cold all day waiting for them. Waiting is the coldest thing you can do. I had checked the weather that morning, but I refused to acknowledge that it was long john season already. Cant stand this cold, huh? the guy said when he showed up with the fuses and found me shivering. Does a bear shit in the woods? I replied through chattering teeth. When I got back to my trailer late that night I wanted to sleep forever.
They told me Deb found me. She owned the ten space RV park in Bruce, South Dakota (population: 211) that was closing for winter the next day. I was off that day, so Id have plenty of time to unhook, winterize, hitch up and pull my trailer into storage, then go move in with Mom in Sioux Falls for the rest of winter. I never thought to lock my door in Bruce anyway, but Im glad I didnt so Deb could walk right in when I hadnt left her lot on December 1st. She relishes every opportunity to tell the story. How relieved she was not to smell a dead body. How she stood over me like she had her own sons when they slept well past a reasonable hour and implored me to get up. How her and her husband threw the kitchen sink at me before they called an ambulance: shakes, kicks, pots and pans, cold water, a couple slaps to the face.
Moms version starts at the hospital. She rushed the doctor. Is my son alive?
Im sorry, Mrs. Irving, he said, crushing Mom, but at this point were not quite sure.
She reanimated. Not quite sure? You cant tell if someones alive or dead? What kind of fucking doc- she looked around the corridor and shouted, Can I get a real doctor over here?
Mrs. Irving, your sons body temperature and heart rate are extremely low, and hes not responding to our efforts to raise them, but he hasnt quite flatlined yet. Ive never seen a person hang on in this state as long as he has. Were doing everything we can, but I can say with certainty that if he doesnt start responding to treatment right away, he wont be with us much longer, and if he does recover, hes likely to have severe brain damage.
without
I didnt wake up on November 29th, 2023. The day prior I remember vividly. I drove two hours into western Minnesota to replace some fuses in a pad-mount transformer. Easy job when you bring the right fuses. I wasnt prepared to stand outside in the freezing cold all day waiting for them. Waiting is the coldest thing you can do. I had checked the weather that morning, but I refused to acknowledge that it was long john season already. Cant stand this cold, huh? the guy said when he showed up with the fuses and found me shivering. Does a bear shit in the woods? I replied through chattering teeth. When I got back to my trailer late that night I wanted to sleep forever.
They told me Deb found me. She owned the ten space RV park in Bruce, South Dakota (population: 211) that was closing for winter the next day. I was off that day, so Id have plenty of time to unhook, winterize, hitch up and pull my trailer into storage, then go move in with Mom in Sioux Falls for the rest of winter. I never thought to lock my door in Bruce anyway, but Im glad I didnt so Deb could walk right in when I hadnt left her lot on December 1st. She relishes every opportunity to tell the story. How relieved she was not to smell a dead body. How she stood over me like she had her own sons when they slept well past a reasonable hour and implored me to get up. How her and her husband threw the kitchen sink at me before they called an ambulance: shakes, kicks, pots and pans, cold water, a couple slaps to the face.
Moms version starts at the hospital. She rushed the doctor. Is my son alive?
Im sorry, Mrs. Irving, he said, crushing Mom, but at this point were not quite sure.
She reanimated. Not quite sure? You cant tell if someones alive or dead? What kind of fucking doc- she looked around the corridor and shouted, Can I get a real doctor over here?
Mrs. Irving, your sons body temperature and heart rate are extremely low, and hes not responding to our efforts to raise them, but he hasnt quite flatlined yet. Ive never seen a person hang on in this state as long as he has. Were doing everything we can, but I can say with certainty that if he doesnt start responding to treatment right away, he wont be with us much longer, and if he does recover, hes likely to have severe brain damage.
-----
I prefer the first, personally.
Pretty and legible :up:
Ugly and (EDIT: sorry for my poor grammar) unintelligible :down:
The style guide I used when writing my thesis was an English style guide and it stated more or less:
1. A paragraph consists of preferably three and a maximum of five sentences.
2. Each sentence consists of a main clause and no more than one subordinate clause.
3. The first sentence bridges from the previous paragraph to the new paragraph.
4. The second sentence introduces a new piece of information.
5. the last sentence concludes on that new information.
6. justified, because it's a more restful lay-out.
7. Anything that didn't fit this probably needed a list, table or another way of formatting the text to make it easily accessible.
I didn't pass the course but my managers preferred reading my briefs because they were clearer. So I stuck with it because the argument from the course instructor didn't amount to more than "this is how we're used to doing it".
:up:
Quoting Benkei
I got mad after reading that you didn't pass the course when it is obvious the effort you made. The status quo and the establishment... always hindering progress. If we were paid for the amount of times we received as answer 'this is how we're used to doing it', we would have a big savings account in the bank.
You felt fear before exposing yourself with words? That's a good sign for your story. Maybe it's full of authentically personal stuff with high emotional stakes attached. We all wanna see the other person bleed.
I don't know if my story reveals any deep seated emotional issues, but I'm sure it does say something about me in some way.
If it does, more than likely you know that, so it doesn't.
Quoting Hanover
If what the story has to say is vague, probably you shouldn't expect too much of a response from your readers. If the story's message is vague to you, it'll be vague to them.
I try to imitate actors. They're trained to always take big emotional risks. They go for the highest stakes possible. A story that plays it safe with low stakes, being boring, gets ignored.
I think it is not that easy. The causes of why some stories get more ignored than others remain unexplainable for me. I personally believe each participant sends a very well-written and interesting story, but for whatever reason, some get more replies or feedback, and there is not a common point to guarantee each story will get the attention or feedback that they deserve.
I will read and comment on each story because the author will appreciate the feedback, and yikes! This is why we do this literary activity. If someone reads a story but decides to ignore it deliberately, I think I will interpret it as a disrespectful act
The movie Airplane for instance, I don't think that satisfies your requirements, but it wasn't boring.
What you say about drama is spot on. It differs from comedy in the greater degree to which its high stakes are obvious. Since laughter is a feel good experience, it obscures the high stakes for the characters who, most of the time, unlike the audience, do not find their situations funny.
Quoting Hanover
No. It's not boring and, likewise, the stakes for its characters are not low. If you checkout the trailer for Airplane below, you'll see one situation of high stakes after another.
Airplane
When I read a story, it either resonates with me or it doesn't. If I don't understand it, for whatever reason - language, culture, unfamiliar references, alien sentiments - I can't review it. If it's a genre to which I have no affinity - thriller, violence, horror - I can't judge it fairly, so I refrain from comment.
Other readers may have similar limitations which in no way reflect on the quality of the story.
You're right. Getting widespread, general interest in response to art is not easy to do.
I wish the general public had your generosity. Basing a story in high stakes, for drama and comedy alike, although not a guarantee, makes a safe bet for good responses.
It is obvious that some short stories will get more attention than others. The surprising fact (at least to me) is why one story has 50 replies and a lot of readers, while another only reaches 8 replies. This obviously happens because some readers decide to ignore certain stories and not post feedback.
I found the ones that had most response were in some way controversial. I recall arguing at length over a couple in the last round - not about whether they were good, which they obviously were, but about some aspect of the content or meaning. If every reader is in agreement, there is not much to discuss.
My other idea was to create storyline prompts.
Before I'm done, we'll have a course syllabus.
I like your suggestions...
so far....
There's still time. I was feeling similarly today until I scrapped my partial draft and rewrote it from a different perspective. Turns out that's all I needed.
:cool:
Lets start the ball rolling! :cool:
Novel accretions from beyond the outer limits. Colors out of space.
Get your lines of blow ready and start up the espresso machine.
:clap:
If only you could record us a Rod Sterling-esque intro video.
If you create an account, you are then able to make edits to your pastebin page up to the deadline if you want, and @Noble Dust will have the same link. Much cleaner than having to send revisions.
Remember, if you use pastebin all you should send Noble Dust is the pastebin link.[/s]
Unfortunately pastebin has a fatal flaw, it ruthlessly censors content. Bear with us as we figure this out. Feel free to PM me if you are trying to submit a formatted story, I will figure something out one way or another.
EDIT: This was intended for @Noble Dust, but it makes even less sense sending it to you, so I'll leave it.
If you care to know, my buns have been delivered to the bakery.
I promise I am not drunk... I am just very motivated by this activity. :up:
Submissions are now officially closed.
It is very complex to explain, but we use the word milk with the aim of avoiding obscene terms
:up:
Somewhere in here, bruv.
Tis now how I speak, being most literary, an author no less. Perchance it has gone to my head, but deservedly so.
And for some reason I've begun speaking like @Baden. NYE do be like that.
Quoting Hanover
I should mention I'm very intimately familiar with everyone's buns this time around.
Surely some kind mod could just text-to-speech (natural speech mind you, cannot stand robot speak) the entries into a short YouTube video or something? :chin:
You know something the average person can listen to on their way to work, whilst exercising, or before bed or something?
Voting is great, but the best way to show appreciation to the authors is to comment. We can't all be @Amity, but lets all make a New Year's resolution to leave a thoughtful comment for every entry.
Happy reading!
I just don't see how one can accurately "rate" one story without reading all of them, and some people don't have the time or patience to do such, funny man.
Example, I just read "Fugue", likely because it was the only title that intrigued me likely due to not being a word that exists in my vocabulary. I liked it. Though I instantly likened it to a single sentence: "I inherited a house with pianos, I slept in it, then (possibly) dreampt I heard pianos, then left." Stellar. A true modern day classic. But upon hearing it narrated it took on a different, more intimate.. experience, almost. I can't be the only one.
I've been told I have a sexy voice and that I usually speak to people like they are five year olds. :smirk:
:lol:
Don't think there aren't days where I wonder what my children's book narrator career could have been...
:chin:
No, 'leche' is 'fuck' :smile:
:pray:
Yes! :smile:
By the way, there is a lot of talent in this forum. Just wow, the stories in this literary activity are very good, and all of them I've read until now meet high standards of writing style and imaginative plots. :up:
@Noble Dust But wait before you do... post on the "Author Speculation" thread a split second beforehand so as to lock that thread in first position otherwise my OCD will remain unsatisfied. Anything created to be set apart must be either first or last, not haphazardly thrown in between lest my intrinsic nature to fix that which is disorderly might overpower my better judgement. Thanks.
So far, there's been a lot of surrealism; the prevailing mood seems to be of reality unravelling - I guess because our actual world is coming apart at the seams.
It is a Spanish thing like "f**k yeah".
Quoting Hanover
Terrific day to have eyes.
No, it isnt. It doesnt mean f*ck yeah
I explained to Hanover and Benkei what the expression actually means. Did you bother to read it?
"No, 'leche' is 'fuck' :smile:"
Uses it as an expression of excitement. "it doesn't mean 'fuck yeah'". Right.
Fuckin' YAY!
Leche Hurra!
It's just part of the contest. Locking the stories in place wouldn't actually guarantee some sense of "fairness" anyway. You're also not exactly giving your fellow TPFers/readers a vote of confidence when you assume we all are dumb and have short attention spans.
Quoting Vera Mont
Yes, having read everything briefly, loss of contact with reality, guilt, cruelty and death seem to prevail. Are we all regurgitating what we have been fed, or is something happening to our collective unconscious? There are no reliable narrators any more, it seems, we cannot pretend to it; even in the third person, everything is confessional - everyone is traumatised.
I am honoured to find myself in such company, and somewhat in the tradition of Ursula LeGuin's The Lathe of Heaven - set in dreamtime at the end of the 3rd World war.
:Same for me, haunted in good company. :fire: :eyes:
Right, he shouldn't assume that.
Anyway, time to watch some Instagram reels.
Voting ends in 7 days. 16 stories total (minus however many you may have read already, 2 here). A simple multiplication operation will inform you as to how many stories to read per day, likely no more than 2. That's doable. Even for the likes of myself!
Hopefully, it's doable, but remember that we all have different life circumstances. As it happened, Christmas bank holidays gave me a couple of days to do a story. However, so far, New Year has kicked in with so many difficulties to sort out that I have not been able to concentrate to give the stories fair attention.
So, I apologise for not having given any feedback yet. I am hoping to be able to give the stories some attention at the weekend, as long as no major dramas happen in real life get in the way.
You both make good points. Sorry, Jack, to hear of new challenges to overcome but, as ever, you will get through. With perseverance and with a sense of [s]the absurd.[/s] humour. Writing, close reading and discussions take time and energy. And motivation. Some passion even.
I thank the whole team for managing this wonderful creative activity.
It has gone from strength to strength.
Right now, I have to leave. I managed to read and comment on 6 stories:
Dawn, Dream of Me, The Moon is Broken, Contingent, The Blue Walls and Errand Boy.
Apologies to those I didn't get round to. I hope you understand. Congratulations to all! :flower:
Don't worry, Jack. The important challenges of real life come first. At least, you made an effort to write a story and send it, when this is not mandatory.
I appreciate your commitment.
Quoting Amity
Sorrowfully, my story is not included in the ones you have read. Don't worry about this, it is just I like the management and commitment you make on each story, and I will miss your presence in mine.
I am doing my best in commenting the stories but I am not good enough, and the disadvantage of being a non-native speaker is I don't find all the precise words in the vocabulary to make a good review.
I wish you the best and hope you cone back as soon as possible, Amity. :smile:
You have given some extremely good reviews and I have found that the entries for this contest are of an extremely high standard.
I am afraid that I often have a soap opera life. The accommodation where I live is due to be sprayed for bed bugs for the 5th time and each time I have to put everything into black bags. Also, there was a major row in the kitchen on New Year's day, over spaghetti on the kitchen floor which no one would own up to. It was petty, but I thought it was going to become violent at one stage. I try to keep a sense of humour and awareness of life as being layered in stories.
Happy New Year to you, and everyone else. This round of stories is a good start to the year and thanks to everyone who has organised and participated in writing stories and giving feedback as much as they are able to do so within the time limits. Of course, it doesn't mean that feedback has to stop after the votes as the stories live on afterwards.
Thank you. You are both very kind and give generously to this creative experience.
We all learn from the sharing. Even better when we can laugh at and with each other :sparkle:
Which brings me to my main topic of inquiry this morning. Why the 2,000 word limit? Are we afraid someone would have simply unleashed some sort of frenzy of monotony that would have burdened a reader to the point of mental distress? Surely such notions are laughable at best.
Hm. Perhaps I could plug each of the 16 stories into AI and create the next great classical novel? :chin:
I may try this, no foolin'.
What a delight that would be for the dedicated or even casual enthusiast of literature!
I am. Overly long stories would end up ignored. Most of us do not want to read 10 thousand words of several stories we were not interested in from the beginning, so 2 thousand is a fine limit.
Ah, the ol' "Sound of Freedom"/"Robocop" approach I see. Definitely true words you speak, no doubt there. Simply how the mind works.
Show something extreme and captivating right from the get go, then you can take your time resolving/explaining it. Even if you never actually do. Your mind is still stuck on the shocking event everything else seems to be if nothing else a reprieve from it.
No wonder gangster rap and horror is so popular with the youth these days.
Perhaps. Art over the artist. Van Gogh originals have sold for well over 100 million. Meanwhile, you couldn't pay me twice that to willingly let my child hang around an old shut-in who cut off his own ear.
The numbers don't lie. Don't shoot the messenger, his message. just might save your life. :wink:
My impression is a strong general drive toward surrealism, exploration of the unconscious, contemplation of time and mortality.
I see skilled structure, well-honed language skills and a high level of authenticity.
Quality product, indeed.
I don't wish to engage too much on this thread, as a way of avoiding the actual stories. However, part of the problem which I see with stories which are over a 2000 word limit is the strain on the eyes on reading on digital devices.
Since using computers so much, as well as e-books and this forum in the last few years I have thought my eyesight has got worse. I don't know if anyone else finds this too. I have gone back to a preference for paper books.
Generally, 2000 words can be a limiting amount, but it may be expecting too much if people were expected to read many longer pieces in a short space of time.
It is also possible that in some cases less can be more in writing. In addition, it is not as if people cannot go on to develop their stories into longer writing projects. But, generally, it may be that longer stories may make the task of initial feedback and voting too arduous.
Thank you @Amity, for your wonderful contributions in this competition and ones past. Your reviews have been a prize in themselves for the authors, and an inspiration to all budding reviewers.
:cheer: Hear! Hear! :cheer:
It's a 3,000 word limit according to Rule 5.
So why the 3,000 word limit you might now ask?
Because it was thought that 2,000 wasn't enough.
Since shifting from novels, then to movies, then to television shows, then to youtube, and now to TikTok, I have found that my attention span has dropped to no more than a 2 minute cycle. I also swipe right trying to change what's in front of me when someone talks to me for too long.
Instead of creating a word limit, I'd therefore propose having a time limit of 2 minutes per story. If you use short words, that might fill several pages, but with long words, you might only get a paragraph. If your characters are Russian and are hard to pronounce, you might only get a few words while your reader struggles to pronounce them in their head.
You will notice from my posts, I adhere to the strict 2 minute standard, but after that, I lose my train of thought and start to talk about genitalia.
And then when I'm through with my post, I say "true story."
True story.
Grazie a tutti per l'allegro ballo! Ciao :cool:
Swingrowers - Dreamland
Dance on and live like magic :party: :heart: :sparkle:
Thanks Amity for chiming in this time around, your feedback is much valued as always. :pray:
I agree that the time factor as opposed to word count is interesting. When in a creative writing group I came up against the task of a 5 minute read and I had no idea how much I could read in that time, and at what speed.
At least, 5 minutes enables going beyond genitalia, because I find that happens more in short free association exercises, where I am often shocked by what emerges and the sexual connotations, like in dreams.
Yes!
Thank you. The increase in powerful, captivating stories and extraordinary feedback from yourselves and others is simply mind-blowing. Quality all round. Glad to have played a small part in it this time.
Long may the flow of imaginative, intelligent and curious conversation continue :pray: :sparkle: :flower:
And all of this is enabled by the most energetic and considerate team - full of enthusiasm.
So much work done behind the scenes. THANK YOU !! :clap: :clap: :clap:
Look, I (or we, if someone wants to be on my side) don't force you to vote for 4 or 5 points or even likes. Nonetheless, since you have given a low punctuation, I (we) expect from you to back your opinions up with a solid review in the thread of the stories.
I know you are voting low and not commenting because most of the people who already commented have a common view on the stories. Most of them like them and gave them average points (3, 4 or even 5).
So, please, if, according to your view, some stories are shit and bad, the authors who suffered such reviews have the right to know why.
I haven't read all yet, but I try to do just this, but not only for the ones I score on the lower end, but also the higher end because it's equally important to know for an author what people connects with. And it's equally important to point out even more if the story gets a middle point since that would equal something that connects, but also has problems.
For instance, something getting a "3" might in my opinion have a good concept and bad lyrics/poetry of the text, maybe it needs some more rewrites to get a better lyrical flow of the text, to make it sing. It might repeat lines after lines in a way that feels overly repetitive, like if someone writes "I did" "I walked" "I opened the door" "I continued" "I continued" "I fell", in sentence after sentence it just feels stiff and like a broken record. Equally, a story for the point of "3" could have a "meh" concept, but the lyrics and poetry is phenomenal. If someone writes three imaginative sentences for describing the existence of a rock in a forest that flows naturally and utilizes the rhythm of long and short sentences as dramatic beats, that might prompt criticism of the lackluster concept, but high praise for the craft and writing.
But I can also see low points given when people seemingly don't get the concept or story. I don't think that should be a reason for low points if its clear that others get the story and the story clearly isn't too vague (which can be a source of criticism as well). If people don't get a story, then at least take a few moments to try and figure it out before commenting, or engage in the discussion and see if clarity comes. There's a lot of literature that's complex and hard to grasp without marination and it just takes a little time to think on it further before grasping the entirety of it. Maybe read it again or return to it later after a while and see if it clicks.
What to look for in determining if a story is too vague or vague enough is if the discussion mostly features interpretations of meaning or interpretations of events. If the events are totally unclear and nobody seems to grasp what's happening, then it might be too vague, if the events are able to be decoded and people can, mostly together, summarize collectively what's going on, but the meaning of the story still remains open for discussion, that's a good thing, that engages readers.
I agree that people who leave a point should comment with more than just "not good". But I'd say, leave a comment regardless of what point you give a story and if you can't put a finger on it, leave a "3" and pinpoint at least what you liked and what you didn't like.
But the engagement from the community and the discussions around stories are the fun and important parts, far more than who wins, otherwise it may feel pointless to participate, especially if you feel anxious about your ability as a writer.
I have yet to cast even a single vote for any story as of yet, and will not be doing so out of principle until I have read each story at least once. Seems like those who only get to read half the stories (either by interest in the title or interest in the popularity of its discussion or even simply being the first few in order) and vote on those alone will skew the contest seeing as they only make their vote count on those they've read, which may be good, yet never evaluating the stories they did not read which may have actually been excellent. Just my view at least.
TL;DR: Wasn't me bro! :naughty:
Thank both of you for your comments. I am glad that we have a common sense and view on this topic.
Quoting Christoffer
I agree with this, and you explained better than me. It is obvious that some stories are 'better' than others because of different causes: writing style, technique, characters, plot, etc. So, some will feel more attached than the rest and, for this reason, the reader will probably give better punctuation to a story than others. This is completely acceptable and makes us humans.
What is not acceptable is leaving a poor punctuation (1 or 2) without backing it up. One or two means that the story is bad. OK, I accept this, but for what reason?
Honestly, I think all the stories deserve between 3 - 5 points. There is a lot of effort put into the literary activity and most of them are well written. And this is not just my view, I read that this is the common sense of people...
Naughty, naughty! It wasn't me either. I am not that stupid to vote myself and the rest poorly. :cool:
FYI, punctuation is using comma's, points, elipses, question marks etc. You mean a low mark or score.
But yes, there are no 1's submitted by anyone, so anyone scoring a 1 is just being nasty. And if you really hated it that much, then obviously the story is already better than a 1 because it evoked such strong emotions. A 1 says more about the voter than the writer and reflects a total disengagement with the text; so whoever got a 1: it's not you!
Thank you Benk for the information. I fell into the trap of 'false friend' words. Because punctuation (marks, commas, etc. As you explained) is translated into Spanish as puntuación, and the latter also means score or mark in my language. I appreciate these exchanges for keeping me up with English grammar.
Quoting Benkei
Exactly.
Agreed, a "1" is for texts that totally fail at every point to be a story. Something that neither has understanding of language, even abstract such, that also fails to form a story, nor a substance that tells anything like it. It's basically failing to follow basic definitions of what constitutes a story.
A "2" would be failing to write a text that has any lyrical or poetic craftmanship or events that mean anything, something that says nothing, or have no real progression of events, or both.
"3" I think is when a story functions as a story, has "ok" craft, it functions and has something to say, basically it is a story and it is written as a story that feels like a story, but not much more. I also consider works that require an additional rewrite to be here. Where you can see how sentences could be rewritten into something much better without losing their context. I find such texts frustrating because I would have just wanted to tell the author to just do another pass and it might have turned out much better. Rewrites are essential.
"4" is mastering both craft and story, having both good lyrical sense, poetry and flow, with a story that connects, regardless if we agree with it or its conclusion or not. If it stays with us as a story we've read. It also shows a text that you don't instinctively feel needs any further rewrites, the text feels well shaped and final.
"5" is masterful, pure and simple, it is a place in which both the concept, substance and craft is so good that you try and fail to find problems that have any relevance to the impact. I think a "5" should be used just as carefully as a "1", it's for the real gems that stand out with a mic drop quality.
But that's just my definitions of the point scale and what I'm going for when rating.
Yeah I didn't like what I recently found out was a rape story, "Fugue". It was enchanting, I enjoyed reading it. But really? That's what you write about? Ugh.
Naturally I'm not going to rate it based on that but I would have no animosity toward someone who would.
No, you're right. Before I realized that was the theme it was easily one of my favorite stories, great atmosphere, each sentence captivating and left me with a desire to continue, etc.
But as you say it could easily be a result of the reader's personal view of the message/theme and those offended by that which is morally indignant may vote with that mindset as opposed to anything else.
Probably, but the one who pinpointed 1 or 2 due to their own reaction rather than the quality of the story, needs to write an explanation anyway. Even according to your example, it is more needed the explanation, because the poor mark depends on the reader and not on the writer.
Sure, but I still think it's good to have some form of framework in mind, or else points can become the result of today's mood rather than an honest response to a story. Some stories might resonate well sitting late at night with a glass of wine and time enough to read carefully then feeling a good rating is rational. While the same story read during a coffee break at work after redoing excel-docs because a colleague screwed the numbers over before ditching off to vacation, would maybe change the rating into the opposite.
Without any guidance in the back of the head as to what each point means to you when giving them to these stories, it might not even be accurate to your own actual opinion of them.
I'm not saying remove your reaction to a story, but I think filtering the reaction through some framework is needed to be honest. At least, that's what I'm trying to do.
Quoting Christoffer
It wasn't mood. I know it was well constructed and well written, hated it on both readings, for the reasons stated, and also because I thought the author was not being authentic. It felt like a send-up, which I found insulting to a well-intentioned reviewer.
Why not just make it 1-4. That way a "1" rating" is more of a 1.75, to be rounded up to a 2. Which would now be a 2.25.
People sometimes take things too seriously. If I read 16 stories, and I am given a 1-5 rating, I will sort them in that respective 1-5 rating. That is to say, 16/5 is roughly 3. So my top 3 personal favorite stories would be a 5, my second 3 favorite would be a 4, my third 3 favorite would be a 3, and so and so on.
True point, there was no "guideline" or "framework" for casting votes. A story I rate a 1 could simply be one I enjoyed, simply the other 15 were, in my view, which I have a right to hold, simply a bit better. That's all. What's so complex about that? :chin:
I still think 1-5 is good because a "3" is good to have for when you actually can't get a good grip of what you both feel or think about a story. When it's like you can see the qualities, but also don't and see the idea but maybe not think it's good enough. It's good to have a perfect middle for that and then below it are the ones you feel you don't like and above are the one's you do like while "1" and "5" are for those edge case specials. Most stories should fall between 2-4, that's the bulk of ratings, so it basically becomes: awful-bad-decent-good-masterful
I feel all this rating hullabaloo could be solved by abandoning the anonymous rating system altogether and requiring a minimum 50-100 word review on the story alongside a public 1-5 overall review (or perhaps under specific concepts ie. penmanship/literacy, visuals/details/captivating nature, message/plot, etc, etc.)
That would solve everything, provided there's such contrition if so. Just an idea.
The problem is that most people will not interpret the rating that way. The intention was not for it to be a ranking, but rather an evaluation.
This is why I think we need official guidance for the voting next time.
Thanks for writing this Javi, I agree :100:
No worries, mate. Thanks to you for your commitment to this literary activity.
Quoting hypericin
:up:
This could be a mess, very difficult to tally, people would be changing their votes, including due to social pressure, etc..
Or in a sense of personal reception
1 - cold/distant/non-relatable/alien
2 - faint/fuzzy/unusual/flawed
3 - mediocre/acceptable/satisfactory/casual
4 - warm/receptive/entertaining/useful
5 - excellent/riveting/personal/grand
or simply
dull-weird-passable-likeable-marvelous?
:lol:
Your way of trying to make definitive categories on numbers puts me off voting at all. It is almost like interpreting some votes as down votes. I think that it was my idea originally that votes were added numerically, so that even 1s and 2s counted positively.
I am still reading the stories and if scoring is interpreted in such a concrete way by everyone, I may simply give feedback. I thought that the contest was meant to be fun rather than about rubbbishing work in terms of being seen as fuzzy, flawed or faint etc, while others being seen as excellent and perfect. If I decide to not vote it will be because I see all the stories as fairly equal in merit, rather some as completely superior and some as totally inadequate. It is such systems which make creative writing hierarchical rather than appreciating its subjective appreciation in the spirit of creativity. It is such a way which may lead people to give up writing altogether.
Right, and in my mind if we have a 1-5 voting system, that means each number is in play. If it's so offensive to give a story a 1 or a 2, why do we have that system at all? If the system was somehow 3-5, would a 3 now be equally as offensive? As others mentioned, it is a subjective system, and even the 1's and 2's do count positively towards a final tally for each story.
It is only offensive if someone votes 1 or 2 and doesn't explain why.
Wouldn't you feel bothered if you saw your story had a low score, and you don't understand why?
Quoting Noble Dust
Except this is not the system we agreed upon. Voting is an average, not a tally, and therefore low votes do indeed count negatively. Every system has its pluses and minuses, a tally would bias towards "views".
Quoting Noble Dust
We just can't have a fine grained rating system without a low rating, it is unavoidable. Low scores are not unacceptable, but they should be given with appropriate gravitas and respect for the author. Most importantly this includes an explanation, as @javi2541997 points out.
I mean, my story hasn't received unanimous 4's and 5's, and I've gotten some good constructive criticism, but I don't know who scored it the lowest and whether that score corresponds to various feedback or not, but I'm fine with that, and I don't need to know who scored it the lowest.
Personally there are stories I really liked that I haven't had the energy to comment on yet, and there are stories I didn't like as much that I also haven't had the energy to comment on yet. I've only scored a few so far. This all feels like a bit of an overreaction to me.
I just meant isn't it still a tally? Votes for each are tallied and averaged at the end, so the highest wins. But yes, negative votes still count negatively, you're right.
Quoting hypericin
:up:
I definitely don't wish to take the voting too seriously as it is likely that the stories may be received entirely differently according to who the audience includes. The idea of needing to back up votes with feedback is about constructive criticism as opposed to a trolling approach to them. I don't mean that people need to treat the competition as though walking on eggshells of fragile egos.It is not mere therapeutic writing, although there may be some important bridge between writing for expression and as quality writing to be appreciated by readers.
The specific difficulty with the voting may be matching up the votes with the feedback, as the two are separate. This means that it is possible to simply rubbish some stories by ranking alone. But, all together, the best way is to have voting as a fun aspect of the contest but with a general form of feedback and, hopefully, no one will see the competitive part as being entirely destructive in the reception of the set of stories.
Or it is just me who sees this issue in this way, and I am overreacting a bit because I tend to feel anxiety when I perceive that I am not doing something good, and I can't understand why (apart from my weak grammar, obviously).
:up:
Quoting javi2541997
It's human nature to feel anxiety about doing well at something and being disappointed when your work isn't received as well as you'd hoped. Personally, maybe years of trying to break into the music scene and failing have hardened me a bit in this regard, so if I come off as cold in my comments here, that's not my intention. As someone else mentioned, the fact that you even enter the contest at all as a non-native English speaker is pretty impressive.
But also, Jack's approach of not taking the rating system too seriously is also wise advice I think. As it says in the OP, we're ultimately here to let our hair down and have a little fun.
As someone who's been working with stories and storytelling for many years, but yet to taken the plunge into actually doing it myself... that may even be a bit harder. Since I've worked with others for so long; judging and giving notes and stuff, that makes me put such a high standard on myself that it might not even be logical or viable as a bar to reach. It's a vast chasm between working with other's stories and creating one yourself.
You seem to feel quite strongly about this. Perhaps next time propose that the right to vote is contingent on having submitted a critique. I'm not sure whether that's technically feasible, and I'm not too bothered about it either way - it's just suggestion.
:up:
Quoting Vera Mont
I think I should leave it there. Most of the feedback and comments on the stories are friendly and polite. I just overreacted when I saw a lot of poor new scores this morning when everything was going fine.
I see what you mean. Someone's been hyper-critical. But the low marks are distributed fairly evenly, so they won't really affect the outcome.
It isn't necessarily one person, each of us may resonate poorly with one or a few of the stories.
Quoting Jack Cummins
Interpretation of the scoring is necessarily subjective, due to inadequate guidance (my fault). I strongly favor 's interpretation, I think it captures the spirit of it very well.
If you or anyone doesn't want to participate in voting, that is absolutely ok. The magic of this is writers getting to connect with readers, not a score.
It's possible, but I don't think most of us would rate any these efforts so low, let alone so many of them, all at the same time.
Nor did I, until it was brought to my attention.
:up:
If someone gives 1 to my story, who cares? It is not like I am getting downvotes on my weddings vows.
Yes it does, and trifling. Someone doesn't like my story and doesn't care to comment? Okay. Why should I care about an unexplained '1' vote? They can't be bothered with me and neither can I be bothered with them.
It seems that you are not taking seriously this literary activity. You are just commenting because you are bored or something. But I wasn't expecting anything different, because you always do the same in every literary contest. You just read the ones which fit your preferences and ignore the others.
Fortunately, most of the users are not like you and make an effort to read and comment on each story. I do not have evidence, but I guess you are the one who voted negatively. Why? Because yesterday morning, after reading your few but negative comments, I realized that the entries started to have negative marks. Maybe you see this as 'trifling' because you do not care about the contest (a big disrespect to hypericin and Noble Dust for their effort),
You can just ignore us as other users do and participate in other threads. But you have to understand that it is not honorable behavior to dislike the stories just because this activity is trifling for you...
You are both right to say that if someone gives an unexplained 1 to any of our stories we should not care. Even negative feedback, which can be useful for thinking about says as much about the person writing it as about the stories themselves. I know that albums which I think are wonderful got really bad reviews and scores in some music magazines. What art is liked or disliked definitely involves the subjective aspects of taste. I will hold onto this while trying to evaluate the stories and reading feedback for my own.
:up:
This kind of response just backs up what I think of you. Thank you! :smile:
Contestant A has ONE vote, a five.
Contestant B has 4840 votes: 4839 fives and one vote of one.
Contestant A wins.
According to 12) Anyone may cast a vote between 1-5 for each story, where 1 is lowest and 5 is highest, via a poll at the bottom. The story with the highest average wins.
Scenario B:
Contestant A has two votes of value 5.
Contestant B has 3984 votes of value 5.
The two share the same first place ranking.
??????
I am pulling out at this point, since the last time I brought up the voting and ranking issue I was first called an idiot, then ignored, and two or three weeks later everyone discovered the same thing I had been harping on, and praised each other for discovering the same anomaly i was put down for noticing two weeks prior to that. This was deeply insulting to me at the time,and I am not willing to go through the same shaming now as then.
You've been away for a god-awful duration and long while!!! Welcome back!! :lol:
This site's philosophy section (nevermind politics threads, those are a lost cause) is consistently used by schizos and other flavours of insane people. If it is like that in the main purpose of the site, it is expected that in the short stories section some people would have stupid, uncharitable behaviour as well. I think the root issue is that the site's filtering is not strong enough, but that is another discussion.
Other than that, I think the voting system could be fixed with a simple google forms link with a rating from 1 to 10 and an explanation for the voting. Then the contest's managers could simply skim through those explanations and see which ones are written by a half-illiterate, crazy person (there are a few on this website as I brought up), and discard the votes of those.
Quoting 180 Proof
Agreed.
I'd take half a dozen "half-illiterate crazy people" over one douche who is too dense to realize not speaking the same language one is familiar with to the same degree does not automatically constitute a person as "illiterate".
Restraint and respect seem to be alien concepts to you. Blame your parents, not random strangers on the internet. I do.
Of course you do, you are one of them :lol:
I can assure you in a competition on literacy if both our lives depended on it, I would be the sole survivor.
Perhaps that's just my crazy talking, of course. Do, pray tell, offer this less fortunate soul but one concession. What is your first language of birth, mother tongue, that is?
:up:
Ok, buddy, go take your medicine and stop flaming in the literary thread.
Quoting Outlander
None of your business, but a visit to my profile should give you enough information for this discussion obviously you don't realise that.
I make 180 proof's words mine:
Quoting 180 Proof
Oops, I guess I just contradicted myself. Errar es humano.
It seems hardly worth the extra work, just to become authoritarian and arbitrary!
The tenor of one's times may be inescapable, but we can resist accelerating the cultural decline.
As for the mentioned characteristics of posters here, I've noticed the odd puerile or narrowly-focused thinking, but on the whole, a higher degree of literacy and sanity than I've encountered elsewhere.
I don't really recommend you to behave like him. It is impossible to ban him because he is a long-term user, but I guess you will not have the same luck. If you continue with that attitude, you will get banned.
Trust what I say. Just calm a bit, mate. In these three years I have been here, I have met similar users like you, and they ended up being banned.
Más sabe el diablo por viejo qué por diablo...
@Lionino
Yeah we're not doing that.
Can we get back to reading, discussing, and voting on the stories, please?
Certainly. I always was, as a matter of fact. I simply felt the need that the inane notion multiple stories were, and I quote, submitted by "half-illiterate crazy [people]" needed to be quashed as immediately as it was brought up so such reading, discussion, and voting could continue unabated. And I did. With such a quickness, veracity, and indisputable adamance it would inspire the envy of the gods. You're welcome.
Certainly :up:
Ditto :lol:
Maybe we just didn't 'get' it.
The way I see it: I accepted the terms when I entered and I'm not going to start griping about them now.
Quoting 180 Proof
:up:
You guys crack me up.
It is literally what the people did with common sense. When hypericin started this thread we agreed that an entry deserved feedback if someone decided to give a mark. I think it is not that complex.
I now understand that others - who are long-term users and cannot be banned by the moderators - think they are the Gods of Olympus, and they do whatever they want.
But even with rules, you cannot avoid dishonesty if there are dishonest people around.
So, in conclusion, as Benkei, Christoffer, Noble Dust, Hypericin (honest and honorable mates) stated: If a person gives a 1 without backing it up, it is the problem of the reader, not the writer's.
Was the rating system ever defined? For you a 1 may mean something that can't be read, just random letters. Others may define a 1 as the text they least liked amongst the selection. If the selection then contains only things of high quality, that means that even a 1 is a high mark for that person in that situation (in relation to your marking).
So, obviously 1 is the lowest, which means the story is poor quality. I do not bother if someone votes for 1 unless he or she comments why. These rules are simple to follow-up. Aren't they? Or are you another intellectual who is above a basic rule?
This is not defined anywhere, what if the scale goes like this: 1 is good, 3 is great, 5 is perfect. ?
I do think that people who votes 1 are just being rude, but I like to argue :sweat:
You misread what I said. The stories are good. What I meant is for the rating system to come with a review. So we would be able to discard the votes based on the review. It is simple, if someone cannot even form a coherent thought or use punctuation, why let their score of 1 to a good story count? Many people were complaining about that here.
Edit: I read my comment again and I cannot fathom how you somehow thought I was referring to the writers as crazy or illiterate. It seems that even being explicit and clear is not enough.
Quoting javi2541997
I don't care, don't talk about people's parents online, I am sure you would not do it in person.
Even though I'm no longer an active participant, I've been keeping an eye on the stories and discussion.
As ever, the voting issue rears its ugly head and is divisive.
Some see it as fun and as a rough comparison guide, others take it very seriously. Especially when it comes to the casting of 1 and 5.
I note and half agree with providing 'professional' evaluation criteria. It makes sense and might make it easier to choose. However, the complication can also provide others with a headache. Evaluating the different stories of varying types, styles etc is challenging. Pineapples and pine nuts.
My own judgements were a bit on the ridiculous side. You will laugh or groan. Perhaps both. I know all my 5's look as if I am 'easy' and don't see the essential differences between them. I do see the mistakes and how they might be improved but I don't see correction as my role. Thankfully, others do. Otherwise, how would writers learn, right? I admit I could have been more critically balanced. But hey, I'm tired - I forgive myself.
Here's my KISS thinking:
1 - for writing the story
2 - for submitting it.
So, I really stripped it down into 3 categories. As existed before.
For an informal creative event:
5 - Wonderful, I enjoyed it. It made me think and feel. Ask questions. Stirred my mind.
4 - Good, I enjoyed it but there is less substance to it.
3 - OK, I read it but didn't get much out of it.
I disagree with the criteria suggested earlier for 1. If the piece of prose is not considered a story, then it should not have been passed for the competition.
'Dream of Me' is a story. The form is inventive and imaginative. There is more to be read into it than meets the eye. According to perspective.
I could write more but I've said enough. I think simple is best.
Getting the balance right between the fun, creative element, comments and the voting is not easy.
I think votes should only be cast after people have read both the story and the comments. Minds can be changed. If they are open.
***
PS - I think that 1 - as in first place - should replace 5 and be the highest. It's more intuitive.
***
PPS - To relax, read, reflect, comment and discuss, I think more time is required. At least 2 weeks for 16 stories. Each writer deserves to be considered with care. This should be a time to enjoy...
Please keep writing, reading, reflecting and responding in good health and generous spirits. :flower:
Should I just rate all of them 5 or even 1 just to humble the author into becoming that much more of a better penman? :chin:
Exactly this.
Votes may look like a response from 'mood' but it is more than that. There is a mingling of the subjective (feeling) with objective (thoughts).
I don't think you are alone in not having enough time. I think an extension is required to do justice to all the effort that has gone into this creative event. I'm now leaving the conversation. Be well.
Generally, 16 stories is a lot for a 10 day period and may be a lot for some people. It is not as if we have the luxury of lockdown any longer and, life is getting faster and faster.
Make voters visible. Everyone who votes with a number of satisfaction-rating for a particular story, will have his username identify his vote.
That is, delete secret voting. Voting will be done only with identification.
This has been made easier with the new rule of new members joining only with recommendation. No "Ghost" members can be created on the site.
Again, I'm pulling out. And for the record: I do not vote here, I do not write in short story competitions and calls here, I do not engage with anyone here. I felt I was insulted here, several times, including by Jamal, and if I can't have my dignity by the organizer and owner himself, then sorry, I don't want to be part of that site, but only marginally.
Wuss.
i jest, surely. :grin: Perhaps you have such an affixation with the approval of authority you deny those who truly count, the average participant who, at least in my case, enjoys your musings and postulations. To discount this true majority, makes one no better than those you deem unworthy. So. Ponder that.
Think of us as a single 20 person creative writing group in Peoria where we share stories and talk about them.
Although this is an original and clever idea, I don't think we will have the results you suggest due to the same issues:
A)/Fortunately, most of the readers and voters are loyal, and you can perceive it by reading the comments and feedback. I think there is a satisfaction in general terms. So, it is obvious that each story has around 3 or 5 points. It is correlated with the feedback published in the threads. One reads a story, then votes (if the user want to) and then gives a bit of feedback. When everything was going good and we were having a nice experience here, the stories started to have very poor marks. Although it seems that I am the one-who-needs-to-go-to-fuck-myself, it was Benkei who raised his voice and complaining in a specific story received a poor mark, the voter needed to explain this because it is obvious that the story deserved more.
B) Using your system will help us to discover the dishonest, but here we have another problem: I have on my radar the one who gave poor reviews without justification and proved to me that this reader is far from being honest. Instead of being honorable and transparent and saying: I voted 1 or 2 because...
If this dishonest user hadn't acted this way, this drama would never have started.
C) So, if this user has shown this kind of attitude, we will have the same problem using your system but in another way. I can't imagine how because I never act viciously on this site, but Jesus others show the opposite.
Keep in mind that the problem is not voting 1 but not explaining why. Imagine you want to publish a paper on philosophy and it gets rejected. Obviously, you would like to know why it gets rejected
Rejecting or disliking the efforts of others without explaining why is a dishonest act.
You might lose a lot of votes, if people don't want to arouse personal animosity. Quoting javi2541997
OK. From now on, I will neither rate nor comment on anything I dislike.
Ideally, reviews should follow the protocol: separate comment and rating for content, substance, plot, character, pacing, atmosphere and style, with a bonus for moral/emotional appeal (what I call the extra dimension). But most people won't go to that much trouble.
BTW, I had no problem reading every story twice within four days - but then, my novel is stalled and I don't have a life, so what else have I got to do?
Don't do this. I can tell you why, in 4 days.
Yes, but only after your prompting and reluctantly, since I had given a low rating. Normally, I comment on everything I am able to rate at 3 and above, but not below.
I know, and I am aware that you act with honesty, Vera. :smile: You show it with your attitude and actions.
I thought it was time I laid my cards on the table. To each his own conscience. In a few days everything will be seen, because in the end everything comes to light.
Terrifying prospect!
I agree, I wasnt stressed to read as I had some time off at the moment, but that time is quickly running out.
What would be a nice new cutoff as a suggestion? 15th? 20th?
:up:
Quoting javi2541997
It is only "dishonest" when one votes without reading a story, which, however, can only be known of others by a 'telepathic mind-reader'. :roll: Otherwise, it's just childish whining to complain that, in effect, you feel wronged somehow by 'unexplained low votes', and yet there isn't an explicit or implicit requirement to read, vote and/or comment on any or all stories.
You are dishonest, javi, to projectile vomit your resentments grow up! Offering "stories" to the public does not entitle authors to anything; honestly, you (we) are not owed a damn thing because any form of feedback, good or bad, is a courtesy (just as every story, good or bad, is a gift). We need not relinquish our 'freedom to refuse a gift-story' in order to spare your (anyone's) thin-skinned insecurities.
It is true, and I must accept from my side that I don't know how to handle negative remarks or failures, and this has happened to me always. Maybe it is a question of time to accept that, no matter the effort or passion we can put into a project, some will just dislike it for whatever reason.
What surprised me a lot is when I saw a poor mark without an explanation. If only this bad mark would be related to my bad grammar, I would have accepted it.
At least that's how I see these activities. If I vote, I have the duty to comment because I guess the author would appreciate it. Again, I respect that you see it in a different way.
What I don't like is the manner you addressed me, but it's OK. Even members of the family treat me that way, why will you not do so? From my side, we can leave it there and end this discussion.
You be you. There are enough of everyone else already.
While your post sounded a bit overly harsh, I do agree that people taking the time to read someone's story, commenting or interacting in any way is truly a gift. We, at least me, isn't a published writer and getting interactions in this context is something that is rare to get as an unpublished writer. Most people who want to write would trade an arm and a leg to get any feedback at all, and reactions to their writing. It is truly a gift that helps you grow as a writer.
Quoting javi2541997
Pax.
I absolutely agree and understand this, and yet, even knowing this and having created for many years in multiple media, negative feedback still stings. Even when I'm confident in the merit of what I've created. I think for some people the choice is between the slings and arrows of negative feedback, or keep your work to yourself. There's something really personal about creation, it is as metaphorically close as you can get to giving birth. I envy the thick skin some people have.
Quoting javi2541997
I wonder then, is your insistence on feedback a hope that the score is related to your grammar? Have you considered that perhaps some feedback is better left unsaid?
Quoting Christoffer
Absolutely, that is the beauty of what this activity offers. AFAIK it is rather unique. And it seems to be a good middle ground between the general public and the kind of anodyne feelgood groups where no writing is ever bad.
:up:
I offered our grown daughter first reading of a novel manuscript. She shrugged and said, "When it's published." That was thirty years ago and I'm not sure I've fully forgiven her. Yes, it hurts when people are not interested, a lot more than if they don't find it to their taste.
Good advice, thank you.
Quoting hypericin
It is somehow related, but it is not the main cause. Benkei and Christoffer explained it pretty well in the previous posts. It is that feeling of anxiety (maybe) or insecurity someone perceives when sending a work, and it is uncertain how it will be treated. Following the advice of Hanover I should not care at all about the critics, but not everybody has the same self-esteem or 'skin', sadly. It is true that when I don't give my best in whatever, I don't expect any results, but I do not know how to manage the frustration and disappointment when, after doing my best, I don't see any response of life at all. In this case, I am not even asking to be accepted or respected but the opportunity to show myself at least.
Quoting Benkei
Yes, that kind of fake politeness makes me mad.
For me it's the other way around; maybe because I'd long ago gotten used to familial disinterest in my completed yet unpublished long and short fictions.
I know what you mean. I asked my kid to clean his room, and 20 years later he moves out, and guess what, it falls on me.
A book is a child of sorts; you pour a lot of attention and love into it. Perhaps she was jealous. I would harbor a bit of resentment towards the hobbies of my parents.
Wow. This sentence alone, if expanded into a 3,000 word configuration of text of said insight, would win any competition. Bravo, mentos. Again I say, bravo!
Naw. She had zero interest in any intellectual pursuit or much of anything we did, and didn't make an effort to pretend otherwise. We simply didn't have anything in common.
Thank you for listening and responding to the requests for extension, given the amount and length of stories. Personal circumstances mean that some flexibility is warranted.
I know this might create frustration for some authors who can't wait for the results to be in!
However, it means that their stories can be given more attention. And gives space for discussion.
I intend to pick up and put words into action. It helps that others have provided excellent perspectives and insight. Mental sparks might reignite to cast another light. :sparkle:
:fire: You go, girl.
The current scoring system is not making people happy, and it looks like a nonsense to me. Are we expected to vote up our own stories and vote down others, like corrupt politicians? If we are interested in a popularity contest, A single vote or a single best 3 would be a better bet, to be posted in a separate thread so that while authors are anonymous, voters are not, and self votes can be discounted. This would give a boost to the most popular without discouraging or insulting the least popular.
But honestly, I would prefer to hear the opinion of a few dedicated judges, who might be previous winners, or a cabal of the great and the good, who are prepared to spend some time to discuss together, and presumably refrain from submitting on that occasion.
My own education is science, philosophy and psychology, so I have zero expertise in creative writing beyond such understanding as can be theorised from casual reading. And as Pirsig pointed out, creativity is by definition unknown, and cannot be theorised except after the event; and that theorising I have no training in,
:smirk: :up:
That's how families are sometimes. My elders never cared about my special interests, shrugged them aside even. I simply learned not to talk to them about it it is not like they could contribute much either way, it wasn't topics they knew about. Even then, my interest in my hobbies did not falter.
Honestly, I think it can be for the better. In a similar sense as keeping politics outside of family.
We do talk about things such as sports and travel and the sorts, but I would not call those special interests.
I do agree that a single review by someone with expertise would be most helpful.
I actually submitted one of my entries on a creative writing website for feedback once. I don't know if they were better experts, but it fed my ego to get good reviews, and I ignored the bad ones. Characteristically.
I've been on several workshop type forums. I enjoy telling other people how to improve their work, but I don't take advice particularly well myself. I find most older writers itch to fix everyone else's stories, but don't change very much in their own, while some of the young new ones do pay attention to constructive (tactful) criticism.
Does anyone really love that book or are you just supposed to appreciate it for some reason?
I didnt like it.
Perhaps you didn't understand it.
It is one of the favorite books of Murakami, and it motivated him to become the successful writer he is nowadays.
You don't like Murakami either, right? :rofl:
I didn't like that story at all - not even as a movie, in spite of excellent acting - but I'd still have to give the book points for writing style. 3. And then there are highly-praised examples of literature that I don't get, or find too wordy, or dislike for some other reason. Of course it's subjective: we don't choose our bedtime reading at random, because we know what kind of thing we like. That's what makes a contest more difficult to judge. I couldn't tell you which seafood dish tastes best, because I much prefer pasta.
Didn't exactly hate it. It just seemed pointless, as I could not really care about any of these useless people. I had a similar experience with Salman Rushdie. I forget which book I started to read (not the notorious one, just because) Beautiful language, lyrical, enchanting.... I was bored rigid by Page 10. Thackaray was wordy, too, and I loved Vanity Fair. You just never know how you'll react to a novel.
Indeed. Also, when these things end, the carriage turns back into a pumpkin. Why not keep the magic alive a little longer, even if it becomes a bit stretched at the end. Welcome back :grin:
A good hate-read on the topic:
https://www.vulture.com/2013/05/schulz-on-the-great-gatsby.html
I thought it was very meh, Appointment in Samarra was much better. Interestingly Fitzgerald died with the book a commercial and critical failure. It only got famous after it was distributed en masse to soldiers in WWII.
Yep, what she said.
A nice line:
That it was the last lines of print they read before storming the beaches of Normandy does make the book more historically significant, but my original substantive critique remains unchanged.
@L'éléphant Not sure why you're tallying already when it will be an average and also note there's an extension: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/869808
Sorry, I don't follow the rules in my own reading.
And I don't appreciate the "it doesn't make sense".
When you open the thread for the public, let it go.
You seem rather intelligent. Surely you have the time of day to, at least, if nothing else, entertain us with your musings? Please? :meh:
Look who's talking. The voting is there and the scores are there. I just made it a compilation. If I make the rules for myself, and I'm not interfering with the process that you people are doing, what's the harm?
Did you make her disappear, too?
Yes, I am currently under the influence of your petty interference.
I think he's reflecting the shared sentiment, rather observation that you generally make intelligent, well-thought out posts and, at least for me, I feel a bit robbed of your greater intellect and potential on this platform by you just posting random letters and numbers (though they are appreciated and better than nothing).
So, as a fan perhaps, or at least you can be considerate of other people, perhaps at least provide a little fun notation as to why you rated such. That's all. No fuss.
This only means that literature is pretty competitive, indeed. I was the one who was arguing last week, and now it is the turn of @L'éléphant
:lol:
People are busy. The contest is fun and exciting, but reading 16 stories each with the same degree of intent, focus, and most importantly passive environment as the last to actually imagine and visualize the narratives described not just while reading but after may become difficult for most especially hardly a week into the New Year and after the holidays.
I think as someone mentioned people may read these while on a lunch break, in between stress and very annoying if not demanding conditions of the New Year which kind of forces you to instantly visualize the words are they are grammatically versus conceptually. I imagine, anyhow.
It's not unlikely people just scroll to this when free and click the first (therefore recently commented on) story (why not?) and comment or rate based on their immediate first impression.
Others, like myself, could simply be waiting until the deadline draws near and/or actually finish reading all 16 stories to get a baseline before casting even a single vote.
It is not that serious. Just read the story with attention and rate it based on narrative, characters, prose, theme, and other important criterion.
Quoting Benkei
I am part of the problem. Some of the stories I have read I have not rated yet because I do not know what to make of them. Some storeis I have no read at all.
That's mostly down to me, 'splainin.
Quoting Benkei
They're difficult to interpret. So, to me, is The Story of THING, but others were impressed by the wealth of description and/or had a take on it that I also found hard to grasp. You never know how any story will be received.
This would eliminate the anxiety that some of us (ahem) feel from not getting sufficient reviews and it will alleviate the ego crushing rating system that those under 35 years old never thought they'd have to endure in our now kumbayaed society. And by kumbaya, I forego more descriptive terms.
For the record (so take this down) amicus fori is a friend of the forum, but not a party to the contest, consistent with the use of amicus curiae, where a non-party files a pleading in the court just to be fucking helpful.
Maybe some comment but wait to rate until they've read them all? I had that idea first, but then changed my process to reflect what I think is correct based on the story at hand instead.
I still haven't gone through them all, I've voted on those I've commented on. I'm also saying what I voted since I think that gives some explanation reflected in the votes we get. The extension was a must and good that it happened.
If @Baden needs an extension, it is granted immediately. A good choice because he puts in a commendable effort commenting on each story. Whatever fits into his schedule.
To clarify, a mod has to close threads in order to close polls, which @Baden will do at the deadline. Once poll numbers have been counted by @180 Proof and the winner announced, story threads will be opened up again to allow conversation to continue on each story.
Others have done much much more, but thanks. It's just that my timezone doesn't work great with closing the threads according to the original schedule. Appreciate the indulgence anyhow.
Ouch!
I know you weren't mentioning me by name, but I got the reference. Thanks for the shout out!
:up: I like that you like my coordination! Percussion was my first musical instrument; Coordination is my thing.
Coordination is your thing because you started music using percussion. Let me guess! Your first instrument was a xylophone!
No, technically a piano! But first percussion instrument was snare drum, I think.
and where's @Bella fekete?
Did you make her disappear, too?
Oh Im here, just got back from from a trip.
Piano music can get pretty complex, but there's also a running joke that pianists are just "button pushers", meaning the technique is pretty easy. Guitar is a much harder instrument to play, in my opinion. It's ironic that it's so popular; it's a pain in the ass, really.
Please forgive me for the apparent non sequitur.
My reviews may be short because I am having trouble sleeping. I don't know if I will manage to review them all because I have other issues to attend to. If I don't manage to get to all of them in the next few days, I would say that they are all good. The 16 stories, even without polishing would probably stand fairly well as a short story anthology.
I agree, Jack. I wholeheartedly appreciate this comment because one of the stories is mine, and it motivates me to keep improving my grammar. I also think all the stories are very good, honestly.
I enjoyed reading all of them, and although maybe I could have missed something because I am not a native speaker, I think I understand the author's literary expression and the plot of the story.
That's why I got so mad last week. It is incomprehensible to me that some stories have poor marks, but I decided not to get into this rabbit hole again.
Yes, I am trying not to get into a rabbit hole about marking and scores. I did in the first few competitions and that was why I got worked up about the scoring methods and other aspects previously. I am trying to see beyond that.
Of course, I will congratulate the winner but all such measures of evaluation say as much about the audience of voters. The competition may have a fun aspect, like winning in sports, but it is likely that the qualitative nature of the reviews as opposed to quantification of popularity may be more helpful on a deeper level.
Said no winner ever.
A joke. I agree with you.
:up:
This pernicious cruel and wasteful approach to life is so deeply ingrained in the collective psyche that thoughtful members of this forum are unable to conceive of even such a natural and ancient art as story-telling without that it must become a fight in which one gets crowned as literary royalty, and the rest nurse their wounds and recite the lie.
If someone wants to declare their favourite, there is no harm at all. If someone offers criticism or interpretation, we can all learn. But why do we poison this with the fakery of scores and counting? I wish I had not participated in that at all: it is meaningless and divisive.
If someone else come pops in later and only has time to read one story, and they want to read the best one. How should we help them? Why is scoring fake?
Because it purports to measure the immeasurable. There is no best one. There is my favourite, and your favourite, and perhaps they are the same or perhaps they are different. A very popular book recently was "50 Shades of Grey." It is appallingly badly written sentimental soft porn spanky-hanky-panky. Utterly tedious. Almost as bad as the film. But lots of votes! Lots of sales!
Only if you assume some cosmic objective definition of measurement. The scoring going on here is a measurement of the average enjoyment of the average reader, all very subjective and very uncertain. Nevertheless, if I see reviews for one book at 1/10 and another at 9/10 I will almost always prefer the latter. Scoring it not utterly detached from objective reality as you seem to say.
Although I agree that the score can prematurely color your perception of a work.
Quoting unenlightened
Sex sells enough to overcome the otherwise badly written text, I guess. (I haven't read it)
It's just a handful of folks who came up with a 5 point scale to rate their creative writing entries.
I give it a 1, only because that's the lowest point in the scale, to describe how important any of this is.
Seems we found the low scoring bastard. Lynch him!
Ok, I might run it without scores for my turn mid-year.
Contest of art generally just ignites a collective invite to discussion about the involved art. It opens up a dialogue on why people like something more than something else, it shows cultural shifts in action.
But most importantly it engages people through recognition. Without the contest part, the incentive for people to read the stories are much lower. The little nudge to make people engage a bit more can be something good.
Just think of the Nobel prize. It is inspiring to go through each years winners, to celebrate achievements. It can engage more to have a sense of direction.
In terms of this contest it's also forcing you to actually finish something. I write fiction occasionally, but there's never really much incentive to actually finish something. Just like having an editor calling and asking for progress, to have set dates of publication etc. it produces an incentive to actually finish a piece of writing, make proper rewrites and keep it structured within a set of rules.
A story contest makes people engage both in reading stories, discussing stories, finish writing stories and also have fun around the process of writing. If anyone takes the contest part too seriously, it's not a sign of the contest being a negative thing. And if your story gets a lot of negativity or people don't understand it or they don't like it, then that's not because its a contest but because they didn't connect with the text. That gives a lot of feedback to you as a writer in order to grow.
I would not have gotten this many reads of my story and this much feedback if I just published it outside of a contest like this. So I don't have any problems with it being a contest and the point system style is rather irrelevant to me. We can interpret it however we want, but it's functional for the purpose and produces the engagement.
Read, discuss, have fun and grow, that's much more important.
I'm torn by the scoring. On the I've hand it's a distraction, it generates drama and negative feelings. On the other hand something would be lost if it were omitted: excitement, engagement, and motivation.
I have an idea for next time. Instead of a poll, votes are submitted on a form by pm. They are tabulated and announced at the end. This way, the votes are no longer in focus, you don't see them. The focus is where it should be, on the stories and commenting.
Even better, since people will probably submit their form at the end, they will remain more engaged throughout the whole voting period, d discussing and debating the stories with others. Votes will naturally be more considered.
There is a general story forum here, anyone may post a story at any time, and of course there is no scoring. Engagement, unsurprisingly, is low.
Good idea! Please implement that the next time -- remove the polls in the story posting.
One thing you might want to address is the uneven number of votes. You wouldn't be able to solve this issue unless you assigned some members to be the judges of the stories and submitting their votes to even out the votes.
The Borda Count -- the method I am using in my own posts when grading a story is deficient simply because it just tallies into one number summary all the votes earned in the 1-5 scale. So in real life, those people who use this method would eventually look at how many 5-ratings a story have gotten. That should be the winner.
Currently, the highest number of 5-rating are:
I Dream of Simon
Unbecoming
The Story of Thing
Quoting unenlightened
Scores aren't poison. They are not fakery. They are needed. Numbers are a summary of what the voters think. How does one get through primary and secondary schools and college without being scored is a puzzle to me.
This is exactly what bothers me, and why i have gone to the trouble of locating it in the heart of my own culture. It has become inconceivable to you, and to many, that anyone would bother to do anything requiring effort without the spur of competition and the prospect of beating their peers. The notion that children can learn, and can hardly be prevented from learning, all the time, and find joy in their own growing competence and understanding is unbelievable, let alone that adults might choose to continue learning over a whole lifetime for sheer joy of it.
The reality of schools is the opposite of what you think; preschool children are bold explorers of the whole domain of knowledge and will bombard you with questions the more you take the trouble to give answers. It takes some serious schooling to turn them into recalcitrant inarticulate resentful ignoramuses with no interest in anything but their score and not much in that. That has to be laboriously taught and conditioned.
You've just supported my point. The children weren't harmed in the making of a grade. They are naturally not going to limit their lives to scores and grades.
Finland is known for delaying grading until the kids are 13-14 years old. And they are showing good results in international rankings.
But grades are for more than just competition, it also simplifies organisation. If you have 300 applicants for a position you may want a way to sort them all and to discard some quickly. Having to do research and interviews for 300 people is too much work for 1 position.
Yes, if you have 300 people competing for a position, then competition is necessary.
Absolutely!
People who are critical either through comments or through points are the best source of hints at problems with our writing. I don't know if it's the modern era of people thinking that creative endeavors are only formed by some inherent and natural born talent and when people criticize the creative work, they criticize their identity interpreted as them don't having any talent in the field.
But that's not how these things work. Good storytelling, good writing craft is a skill to practice. Rejecting negative criticism is the worst thing someone can do because it's the only source of feedback on what to keep practicing on. Some people are good at craft, but lack pacing and overall story structure, some have good ideas and pacing but have repetitious and uninteresting craft. While some are bad at both or excel at both, neither who should attribute any of it solely to talent.
In other places I've seen writers start out as masters of the craft but without much observations in life, so their stories are flat and have little to no point to say. They can write poetically, but they haven't lived enough to form actual emotional and dense characters. Their writing tend to be filled with world-building and painterly descriptions from their imagination, but lack people who live there and instead populate their worlds with caricatures. And in the opposite manner, people who have a lot of experience in life, a lot of ideas and have a lot of opinions to dense up the story, but lack any experience in how to either structure a story that tells those ideas, often leading to mind to paper ramblings of events that reads bluntly, even though the subject matter and characters are of great importance.
All of that gets fixed by reading negative criticism; trying to find clues to what is lacking for you as a writer. And there will ALWAYS be negative criticism, I don't know any story that is free from it. The key is to reach a point of writing where you feel there's a consistent quality every time you write and that seems to connect with enough people that find meaning in it. That's the goal of an author.
I actually think that the opposite is worse. When someone praises something just because they feel they want to be good to a fellow writer. To be nice to them because they know also know the hard struggle of writing. That's not helping, that's doing them a disfavor, making them think everything is fine, unable to spot problems that others would find obvious.
So, comments are good for feedback, focus on meditation on the negative ones more after the initial "shock" wears off. And if it's a negative point, then it didn't connect with someone and that's also important feedback.
People need to stop thinking their ability of writing stories is a fixed position and that negative feedback and criticism is an attack on them personally. Or else they will be stuck at the same level.
Some people here believe that the low score votes speak more about the voters than about the writer. I honestly don't care either way, it is all for fun.
You are right, nobody used a sex scene in the stories. Personally, I don't like sexual interactions between the characters because it can distract the reader from the real point of the story. I even guess using sex is just an easy way of eye-catching. Not my cup of tea, honestly. When I am watching a film or reading a book where the use of sexual interactions is vast, I tend to dislike it. It bothers me. If I want to dive into my fantasies, pornography is already there.
Good stories exist somewhere in the middle of author intention and reader interpretation. Of course there will be those who totally misses an obvious point of a story or who doesn't like parts of a story and therefor want to burn it down, but those people are obvious to spot and aren't relevant as good sources of constructive criticism.
I trust that people at least try to be honest in their voting and commenting, it does everyone a disservice to have other intentions than keeping the experience fun, rewarding and constructive for everyone. In that way everyone get something out of it.
Quoting javi2541997
I think context is important when and why to have sex in a story. There's an obvious point to get the readers blood pumping through sex scenes, as long as there's a point to it, just like with any other part of a story. You want people to feel tense in moments of suspense, you want them to be angry in moments of revelation and so on. Two people having sex can bond them in very specific ways as long as it has some kind of other emotional payoff later on.
However, sex in fiction is often used badly. Sometimes it's the lazy "...and then they became in love with each other", rather than actually put in the effort to describe such love blooming. Sex needs to have a purpose of its own, it's especially bound to the most intense connection between two people. Sloppy use of it tends to drag down a story to the point it could hurt the entire thing. I know writers who tried to be creative in their descriptions of sex, but were ridiculed when reviews came in, focusing on the tasteless and stupid attempts at writing about that ends up reading like someone who's never had sex.
Sex is like a point of murder in a story. It's the culmination of something, it is the start of something, it is the tipping point of a line of events. Anything other than that comes off as being unnecessary and how you describe it, distracting. But when done well it can be extremely powerful, in all sorts of ways.
Some thought it was not believable enough, and others seemed to be satisfied because they were fantasizing about the engagement of the two during the reading of the story.
I got mad, because the symposium turned out on speaking about the sexual relationship between the two protagonists rather than the characteristics of a detective fiction: plot, murder, psychology, etc. I felt I wasted my time there... But what surprised me the most was the fact that some readers were anxious about talking on the love affair rather than the novel itself.
I never thought sex was important to some readers until that day. For me, it is information that can be omitted. I will not miss a sex scene in a book, honestly.
Sounds more like airport novels marketed to women 45+.
A noir pulp detective story that ends up being a sex fantasy rather than a coherent piece.
Yeah, sex in fiction needs to have a specific purpose and if all readers get out of a text is about the protagonist's sex lives, then there's either a problem with the text and overall story or the readers came to the symposium looking for something else :sweat:
I believe that I suggested that a marking system from 1 to 5 may be a helpful way of evaluating stories, as in music album reviews. However, how this will work in terms of quantification is another matter. I actually thought that @L'éléphants way of working out votes, including number of votes, as opposed to mere averages would be how it is calculated. Whatever, it does seem that however winners and losers are calculated is questionable.
My biggest concern is that if those who are seen as losers are left feeling that they are complete 'failures', as if they should give up writing entirely. I am not sure how I will stand in this presently, and I don't wish for myself or anyone else to be rubbished to the point where they give up writing entirely, or see it as a mere coping mechanism, but with nothing worth contributing objectively.
Saying that, while I felt extremely demoralised by negative feedback in the first competition, I am not quite at that point currently. I do see creative writing as having both a therapeutic aspect and qualitative contribution to writing. The tension over scores and various aspects of feedback may suggest how it is such a sensitive and complex area. In writing this post, I am not trying to be difficult or contrary to the spirit of this competition, and it's fun aspects. My general concern is that no one is seen as a 'failure', to the point where they feel demoralised in future writing, on the TPF, or any other outlets for sharing writing, especially on the basis of score measurements . Winners may be congratulated, but, hopefully, not at the point where 'losers' are seen as absolute 'failures'.
There are different kinds of feedback and criticism. Also reasons for praising and not being willing or able to offer - not negative - but positive constructive criticism.
I have admitted before that my way of reading and giving feedback is not to focus on the technicalities nor act as 'teacher'. My aim and joy is simply to engage with the author and their work at a close level. To try to understand the story being shared. It also helps me express my thoughts and feelings. The stimulus inspires me to write creatively and not in some detached manner.
I hope that in doing this, the author can see the effects of their writing.
This is not about wanting to be good to a writer or being nice to them.
Nor is it about a popularity contest. It's about dialogue and discussion. Sharing discoveries.
That kind of thing.
From what I've seen of your feedback I think it's extremely valuable since you seem to write the thought and emotional process of reading it as a response to the text. I've seen that you sometime interpret wildly outside what I think the text is about, but in doing so you expand the text into realms that wasn't there before. It's unorthodox in terms of feedback "style", if there even is such a thing, but I think it's a powerful form of exploration and invaluable for writers to get such a interaction from you, so everyone who's gotten feedback from you should be very thankful for it, it's a rare treat! :cheer:
This is an issue that comes up every single year. Part of the problem is this contest is a half-breed. It doesn't know whether to be serious and have finely-detailed evaluation criteria or to be fun with a 'What does it matter?' *shrugs* attitude.
It can't seem to please everyone.
If it is to remain informal, and if there has to be a vote, then I like simple.
Of all the variations, I preferred the 3 vote system indicating: positive, OK, negative.
Reasons can be given in the comments.
If more formal, then specific criteria need to be drawn up.
Perhaps with a template or protocol as, I think, @Vera Mont suggested. Also @Christoffer has provided the list of his values.
But all of this and more needs to be thrashed out before the next competition. Perhaps a separate discussion thread where a proper, clear debate can take place.
Thank you. In another world, my feedback would or will be different. Reading and writing can energise but it can also tire, in a nice way but still...
This contest was a toughie. I admire and congratulate all authors and reflective readers. :fire:
I'm not looking for a bunch of :flower: but a :party: will do very nicely, thank you. Cheers!
Edit: I missed out the Team :yikes: but you know it already. The love :hearts: :100: :pray:
Thanks for your reply and I do think that some of these issues need to be addressed before future competitions. In the first one, I struggled with this, and whether I should have even entered a competition in the first place.
Currently, I have thought that such ideas of lack of competency should be dismissed and I see every story as a valid, worthy contribution. It is not as if credentials for entry are taken. I am certainly not opposed to a 'winner' being seen or a competitive element coming into it.
However, as writing, especially the tension between therapeutic writing and writing to be writing, are an essential dynamic. I even consider writing a thread on the arts as therapy or about qualitative expression in order to pursue this theme. It is not simply about writing but all forms of art. However, I would certainly wait for the end of this particular competition to end in opening a controversial debate in the philosophy of the arts and a sensitive area of human expression.
I'm tired so here's a :up:
Yes, I am tired too, and let us hope that such feelings of tiredness don't kill off our reception of creativity and the creative spirit itself. I hope that story and writing is not destroyed by the 'battle' approach to philosophy and that creative writing is able to go beyond such dualistic approaches to thinking about ideas and life.
As I see it, the threads on creative writing are such a worthy aspect for philosophical thinking and writing. Let's hope that they can be developed in a way which makes their value and authorship stand out in the most positive way.
One of the ways which this competition differs from most literature and creative writing ones is that there is no 'prize' in any material sense. The idea of the 'best' or 'favourite' is the ultimate criteria and award.
As this is a competition in a philosophy forum where ideas of popularity , quantification and qualitative evaluations come into play, is it any wonder that the idea of a winner and a hierarchy of losers is open to question, especially when the number of voters is so small?. So, the question may be in what way may the competition and feedback outcomes move forward in the most positive way in the future?
Saying that, I am not suggesting that critical, constructive feedback is essential. I am not trying to suggest that you are not being constructive in criticism, but left wondering how this can come together on a philosophy forum. Human interaction is so complex in real life and maybe more so on a forum. In a way is more objective and distant in the sense that it is highly unlikely that members will have ever known each other on a personal level, and face to face.Sometimes, the emotional biases of human face to face interaction can be too strong, but, on the other hand, it may go too far the other way on the internet. So, it may be how does one find one's writing voice in the brutality of jungle dynamics on an impersonal forum?
Each of us is writing and reading alone and there is the question of how this can be useful in the development of creative writing practice? Also, how can this work in such a way that pleasure in writing and reading is not destroyed, especially in the thread of competitions. To win, create or to be, may be the question, and what does this mean? Also, how may it be taken seriously or not too seriously?
Will do , only open the door, behind which judgements are made, whether on basis of politics , or experience.
Change it to politics -of - experience, to get prejudicial sentiment washed out .
So, I am left about the meaning of winning and losing. In particular, what will measures of 'failure' or 'winning' have in our writing lives? I am not sure that writing comes down to the issue of bravado, as writing captures so much of a subtle nature.
Winning is engagement in the process and losing is quitting. The winner is the guy who is bested 100 times and suits up the 101st time. The loser is the one doing the end zone dance, acting like he's never been there, and thinking he'll never be on the other end of things.
So go out there and lose mightily and fail unapologetically so that you can reemerge heroically.
I feel like a shoe commercial.
To some extent, I agree with you about the ongoing benefits and hazards of losing and winning. It may be about the snakes and ladders of life. The person who fails so badly in this contest may be the future winner, and, even beyond that, a significant writer. In that respect, to rise above failure, is to pick up and not quit in the process. It may require more strength and integrity of those deemed as successful and 'winners'.
Even those who win and are successful now may have been rejected at one point and it does depend on the people who make such judgments and this may vary significantly. This goes beyond writing into so many other areas of life. In some aspects of life, I have felt seen as inadequate and a 'failure'. It can be torturous but it may involve an experience of trying to rise above the ashes.
Hopefully, in this contest, no one is quite in the point of the funeral pyre. If one is not successful in one genre of fiction it may be that an array of future possibilities remain, fiction and non fiction. It may be all about each person finding the way of developing potential and a unique writing voice. Dare I say, I strive to find a writing voice even if it is ugly and jars with those who are esteemed.
So, I would suggest that the competition here is open to all, and those whose voices may seem wierd or incongruous, and drowned by the melodious sound of 'normality' and pop fiction. Perhaps, the weirder the better, in the unfurling of the new, in ideas and imagination and possibilities...
:lol:
Quoting Hanover
"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." :sweat:
What is 'failure'? I once had a tutor who said to me , 'You must feel such a failure.' I am not sure if he was trying to be helpful or not. Failure is a label we may given or give ourselves I wonder to what extent these labels and ideas have an effect on us, in determining who and what a person may become.
The person who is seen as a 'winner' and creative may achieve so much. I am left wondering about those who are disregarded and how potential may be stifled. Of course, I realise that this contest is part of life, with so much judgment of failure and success. All of us have to cope with this flow. At the moment, I don't feel seen as being perceived as lacking any writing ability at all, so I do plan to continue some kind of creative writing.
The worst possibility is if anyone enters and comes to this conclusion. It takes a certain amount of courage to enter the contest. I just hope that people are not named and shamed as a result of low scores, to the point where they feel completely inadequate as writers. Prior to this, I did 'morning pages' as suggested by Julia Goldberg, in 'The Artist' s Way'. On this basis, I would say that even if I am disregarded as having nothing of importance to say, hopefully my writing is of some significance on some level, even if it is only psychological.
This probably applies to fiction as well as non fiction and reflective writing. Most of us, as individuals, may be seen as insignificant in ideas and stories, but , nevertheless, may have gems of wisdom and understanding.
Ultimately, it may be about cultivating the artist and writer withn the depths of one's self or being. Rejection and criticism may be stumbling blocks, but, hopefully, not to the point of giving up writing entirely.I have received some very positive feedback and hope to see criticism constructively, for making improvements to enable my writing to make connections for other people. It is an ongoing process of self understanding and writing to be read for others.
Read Samuel Beckett. Read Emil Cioran. Also watch the great tragedies and comedies. And dance to the blues, Jack. :wink:
[quote=unknown]Either you win or you learn.[/quote]
As regards to the 'artist's way', it could be asked to what extent were Jiim Morrison or van Gogh successes or failures? They both lost their lives, which is not the current esteemed ways. The writers who you mention are worth exploring.
. The tragic and comic aspects of life are so complicated, and if explored to the fullest may enable the greatest artistry in fiction and other arts. Jim Morrison may represent an important role model for understanding the shamanic aspects of artistic exploration, including the perspective of the blues, such as expressed by Jimi Hendrix. Hopefully, the blues lead to greater creativity., including all kinds of failure , rejection.and 'the dark night of the soul'.
Wow! Where did the time go? :wink:
Truth! :clap:
Now that the polls are closed, I think it is time I laid my cards on the table. More discussion to come. :naughty:
Yoo-hoo!
I like this perspective.
Oil up.
Fugue = Noble Dust
Pull out the grass! = Javi
THING = Baden
Special Christmas = Hanover
and I'm done with guessing.
EDIT: for me personally THING was second best, right after my own story. I kid. THING was (un)fortunately better.
I think THING was the strongest, it stuck with me the most. I also liked I dream of Simon for its narrative style being on point with a child's perspective and that it seem to have depth in symbolism, although I've yet to decode any of it.
Speculated in the speculation thread, not sure where we're doing that, here or there?
Quoting Christoffer
Quoting Christoffer
Quoting Lionino
Most of the readers guessed this is my story because it is the one which is more poorly written. It is a bit frustrating; I am not going to lie. I promise I did my best to create a decent short story, but it is clear that whenever you read it, you quickly notice it was written by a non-native speaker. This was my main objective trying to improve myself and not being easily recognized by the readers, due to my lack of fluent writing in English. I take all the comments as a gift and help to me. I really appreciate having fun here, although some may think I am a bit sensitive and anxious.
Well, it is true I feel anxiety when I see I don't get good results when I gave my best. It is true that I should not care that much, but some are more sensitive than others. Maybe it is a question of maturity, and I am not matured enough yet.
You know it is not worthy to me to keep participating in these activities if it will always be easy to recognize my story because of how it is written. I don't think I will take part in another contest because I take this very seriously, and I am aware that I was very rude and aggressive with the users in general. You will not miss me, by the way, hah. :rofl: But I feel this was the last time for me.
It was mostly because I noticed the Castillisms (just made up the word) and the Spanish elements. Nothing to do with grammar.
I recognized a different style of grammar more than a lack of skill in English. A different grammar build is a good indicator of a different language structure, but doesn't necessarily mean "bad at writing". There were some color in the descriptive language that was nice.
I didn't guess it was you because of the grammar though, but because you basically told it through your comments on your own story :sweat:
Quoting javi2541997
Taking things seriously doesn't excuse being rude and aggressive towards others. I also think that if someone is serious about something, then showing aggression when things doesn't go in the preferred direction just gets in the way of growth.
And if you are serious you can also use stuff like Grammarly or write in your own language first and use something like ChatGPT to translate it. Then just go through it and see if it botched the story or were able to translate it well.
So if you are serious about writing, then try some of those solutions next time and stop getting aggressive against others just because things didn't do well. None of this is a serious competition for some publication or whatnot, it's meant to be fun and if you don't have fun, then I doubt you are able to live up to your own aspirations of being serious because if you don't have fun evolving as a writer, then how on earth will you be able to do it seriously? It's through writing, getting feedback and reactions, then writing some more and so on; that we grow as writers. It's the only way. And getting angry is a ticket to nowhere.
Nope. Combination of nostalgia (a word you use now and then) and vivid visual imagery. Plus Spanish elements. Your comments just confirmed. I thought it was very good.
There were a few grammatical oddities and weird word choices, but if you've noticed native writers have those too!
Now that voting is over, lets keep it going here. The annoying thing about that thread is you can't easily see new comments.
A Very Special Christmas: Hanover
Interlude: Benkei
Dawn: Vera Mont
Errand Boy: 180 Proof
The Story of Jack Doe: Baden
Rip out the Grass: Javi
Rest... Dunno!
God damn, every time I get reminded just how bad I am at this. I was so certain...
Then... The Moon is broken or Contingent (the brain stays) on you since your comments are pretty vague on those :sweat:
Well done!
Well, the results will soon be in! I look forward to all authors' feedback on their experience and evaluation by readers.
What was helpful, surprising and if future participation depends on the voting system. How it might be changed.
I thought I'd google the subject of evaluating. The dual aspect of subjectivity and objectivity.
I think both can be accommodated. I found this:
Evaluating Creative Writing: The Criterion behind Short Stories Assessment
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/78528137.pdf
Pdf pages 15-16 and 19-20 for a quickie.
I think a separate discussion on the way forward is vital to the life and energy of this creative writing event. It is so worthwhile. But enthusiasm for this kind of reflection dissipates, as soon as the event is over. Thoughts? From @Vera Mont @Baden @hypericin @Noble Dust et al. welcome.
Thanks to all! Many Congratulations :sparkle:
1. The Story of THING 4.4
1. Unbecoming 4.4
3. I Dream of Simon 4.2
4. Dawn 4.1
:clap: Congratulations! :clap:
In an odd coincidence, there is an exact tie for first, both stories had the identical votes .
Voting was very close, the difference between the highest and lowest were just 1.4 points. None were below 3.
Surrealism wins :clap:
So, what are the author guesses for these four?
However, there may be some surprises here, as some authors, especially @Beverley are less known people on the forum.
Maybe, this scoring was effective in a way because at least it did not show a great big gap between the best and the worst. So, hopefully no one feels an 'absolute failure'. Personally, I do try to rise beyond caring too much about scores. It is really only on my bad days that I start fussing too much over this, as the review feedback is a reason to be grateful for the contest. The scoring may just add an edge and impetus to the reading process.
In terms of improvement, I do wonder if votes sent by pm anonymously may help because seeing scores may influence which stories are focused upon, almost from the beginning.
Unenlightened on his last comment on that story seem to confirm him on Unbecoming.
Beverley I think wrote The Blue Walls. Checked her bio and she mentions "returning to UK", and the story has some parts about being away and back in London. A sense of geographical dislocation tied to the UK through that dream logic. It felt like a "write what you know" thing.
The Story of THING I have no idea. Tried to decode writing style from previous story contests and I can find traces in 180 proof and Noble Dust's writings. Baden also has some similar play with words.
I Dream of Simon is one that is hard to pin down due to a deliberate style of narration through the eyes of a child, so I can't find similarity in writing style anywhere.
Yes, both you and I will have to keep trying until we win to overcome our failure complexes, while the winners may retire on the basis of the glory, if they choose Let us hope that all of this. Let us hope we can dust off any defeat and rage, to fuel our future writing.
:up:
Quoting Baden
Good idea to keep any debate clear of the jungle.
If this event keeps changing every time someone else 'runs' it, then it's like Groundhog Day.
Dawn - @Vera Mont
Unbecoming - @unenlightened
Rip Out The Grass! - @javi2541997
Errand Boy - @ucarr
I Dream Of Simon - @Baden
A Special Christmas - @Hanover
The Moon Is Broken - @Jack Cummins
Yuletide Justice - @Benkei
The Tale Of Jack Doe - @Lionino
The Blue Walls - @Beverley
Contingent (The Brain Stays) - @ToothyMaw
The Fifth Stage - @Christoffer
Dream Of Me - @180 Proof
Interlude - @mentos987
The Story of THING - @hypericin
Fugue - @Noble Dust
I realize that you weren't asking me, but since you asked, blame @Jamal
Plum Pudding
Before everyone's attention has completely dissipated, I'd like to continue the discussion on the scoring. There were quite a few negative feelings this time around, I think directly resulting from the scoring. It did feel unnecessarily brutal, and was overall a big distraction. I see a few ways of doing things differently:
1. Back to the old scoring system ("I liked it/it's ok")
2. Eliminate scoring entirely
3. Submit votes all at once by PM
@Baden proposed 2 next time. I worry that something might be lost though. I think 3 is definitely worth exploring. It eliminates all the distraction of watching votes, the undue influence of paying more attention and more favorable attention to high scoring entries, and the shame of publicly getting low scores.
What do you think? What other options are there?
Additionally, any other feedback you might have about this even will contribute to making the next one even better.
I don't think anything needs to be codified as rules. A general criteria guidance form would suffice. To suit the aims of the 'Contest' whatever they are.
Quoting hypericin
There have been other 'old' voting systems.
As far as I recall, the one that caused the least aggro was the:
1. Fuckin' Yay
2. Fuckin' K
3. Fuckin' Nay
Reasons and quotes can be taken from the stories to justify any score.
As much or as little as warranted. A discussion can usefully explore other perspectives.
Enough time for careful, considered reading - the one day per story seemed to work.
People are in too much of a rush to judge. Slow the hell down.
Votes can be submitted at or after the Comments deadline. I think that happened before and sorts out the 'influencing' problem. No need for secret PMs.
But I've said pretty much all of this before. I'm fed up repeating myself. No more.
I hope that we don't need to go through this rigmarole forever and a day.
Know what you - organisers and writers - want to achieve with this event. And go from there...
Story of THING was my favourite so I'm glad it ended up there.
I think my story ended up in either two camps, those who picked up on what I was aiming for with the ending plot point and those who didn't, or had another perspective on the concept, which made it hit or miss for some. But overall happy with the feedback and reactions :fire:
The problem becomes that comments still reflect the scoring of the voter. I guess nr 3 is a good alternative, but maybe the old scoring was better? Keeping it anonymous may however help with scores not influencing other voters.
Maybe a specific thread for scoring might be better? Like, people post their scores instead and its less clear until counted what the actual score is? That will also connect the name of the voter to the score, which might be a problem or not depending on how open we want things.
I definitely dont think we should remove voting, that would just lead to a mess of sorting out who won.
If voting is anonymous I think that a 3 point score is best. Dislike, like, love or something like that.
And then the top three stories are revealed without any scores shown.
Agree with all of this. But why would voting have to be anonymous?
Maybe not anonymous, but I rather meant that the score is hidden. I think the clear visible scores drove much of the emotions around it. So, maybe not anonymous, but at least hidden so that it's not so obvious what the score is for those about to comment and such.
That way I think people will comment less affected by such information and be more honest to what they truly felt, even if the difference is minor.
If there was a dedicated thread where people could comment a vote, then the only way to get a score would be to go through it and gather points. So for those who want to get a sense of the scoring they can, but it wouldn't be super obvious.
I'm just brainstorming ideas here so I'm not sure what's best, but if the 5-point score was hidden or in another place or sent as a PM I don't think it would have been much of a problem.
Did you read my suggestion re the timing of the votes?
Quoting Amity
Missed that. You mean that there's a period of commenting and stuff and then at the very end there's a period of voting? Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.
I don't follow this at all :chin:
It sounds a bit too complicated and unnecessary.
Quoting Christoffer
The problem with the 5 point score was that everybody was using their own criteria.
And number 1 was particularly aggravating.
That is why I think a set of Guidelines would clarify.
That is also a nice, incremental improvement over the current system. I like it. I'm not sure it has been tried before, unless maybe the second contest which I missed.
Potential downsides: it forces everyone to vote on a specific narrow time window, which may not suit everyone. It reduces but doesn't eliminate the "score shame" issue. If the voting period is longer, it reduces time for comments. Votes are still subject to influence from other votes.
What downsides do you see to the PM votes?
If anything I see this as an even bigger distraction. The temptation to check this thread would be irresistible. It would also be very hard to tally, especially with people changing their votes.
If people go to the trouble of reading, commenting and discussing, they will already have their vote in mind. It takes a moment.
From previous feedback, qualitative discussion and comments take more time and are valued more than votes.
What exactly is the 'score shame' issue'? How does it arise?
How would votes at the end influence other votes?
Quoting hypericin
I don't see the need. It's another layer of complication. I wouldn't do it.
1-4 would do. See page 15 of the pdf I linked to earlier.
Quoting Amity
Do you tap into that when you vote? Or do you have some criteria in mind for each level?
1= crap
2=
1 is the leftmost chunk, 4 the rightmost. The two tiny tidbits in the extremities don't exist, no one here is that good or that bad.
And that is why most people would vote 3 or the middle ground. It saves them from thinking about what lies beneath the curve. Perhaps 5 ain't so bad after all.
-Amity
It probably saves them from the trouble, but the down side results in a disconnect with the modal limit of the intuition , making the grade more improbably accurate.
On another note, it seems my story bothered some people. I can't say it wasn't my goal.
My stance on this is based purely on the first contest we did, in which we simply had a final thread in which we voted for which story we thought was the best. I thought this worked because it was very simple.
As to whether we should remove the competitive aspect, I still don't think we should. Making this event a competition motivates all of us to write well. If, on the other hand, this event is a writing workshop, we can just submit manuscripts and have group critiques. But that's not what we do, right? This is a philosophy forum, not a writers feedback forum. I think there's a joy in the rush to meet the deadline and to get something in that's one's best work, at the moment. Making that process a competition encourages that rush, and that rush encourages creativity, which leads to great stories. Again, it's truly not about winning, but the competitive nature of it fuels the creative output, I think. That's my take on having a competition.
That said, I'd say let's revert back to the original competition and just make a poll at the end where everyone votes for their favorite. The story with the most votes wins. Simple.
I agree with all of this :100:
Thank you for the clarity, all the hard work and keeping it simple. :flower:
It is also not just for writers but for readers. Both. The interaction matters.
It stretches all creative imagination; thoughts, feelings and writing process.
Having said that. There is a learning aspect to this event. And that includes the more technical bits, the literary techniques used. What makes a story work.
People who write and read want to improve their skills, don't they?
And that overlaps with philosophy. Close, careful reading for understanding. Critical thinking. Empathy.
What helps you arrive at a good, balanced and informed judgement?
What makes it a favourite?
Again, I come back to some form of Guidance at the start.
To be honest I find it difficult picking one favourite. Perhaps 3? First, second, third?
Above all, the atmosphere should be relaxing and not a rush of anxiety.
Over to you guys...
:100: Exactly.
Quoting Noble Dust
You overemphasize simplicity. None of the problems of the current voting system had to do with complexity. No one is confused by 1-5. It is that it was unnecessarily harsh, and a distraction, imo.
Quoting Noble Dust
This one had problems. Self voting had a disproportionate effect, people winding up with no votes. Too binary, all or nothing. It was the least expressive, you can choose one, and that is all.
Quoting Amity
The issue of people feeling ashamed, or otherwise upset, at receiving low scores. Maybe public humiliation that something which feels like a projection of yourself is deemed unworthy. It makes participation feel risky to a lot of people, which I think is unnecessary.
Quoting Amity
Just that voters would still vote with the knowledge of how people voted previously.
I understand the perception of so-called 'failure' and a damaged ego. It needs to be put into perspective.
Look at who is judging. What is their expertise? How much does it matter - the opinions of about 14 people on a philosophy forum. That's part of it. It's all too close and personal for some. What is seen as 'naming and shaming'. But it's also sharing and caring. Listening.
If writers want or need 'serious' critical feedback then there are better places.
Quoting hypericin
How so? It happens all at the same time. At the END.
What about my earlier suggestion:
Quoting Amity
The 1-5 system is clearly more complex than a 1-3.
There was no clarification of criteria.
All competitions so far have been 'distracted' by those who see unfairness or bias in the system.
It's good that this discussion is taking place to enable a less emotional exchange.
Once a decision has been made or general agreement has been reached, then people will know what the score is. (pardon the pun)
Now is your chance to speak up. Or forever hold your peace.
Quoting Amity
Creating anything has a large portion of emotional turmoil around it since it's not like writing out philosophical ideas and opinions that can be defended by a shield of logic and external sources. Creative work, creative writing leaves the heart out in the open, it connects to the center of "who you are" as a person in very direct ways.
So it's of course scary to present a story on a public forum. But it's also part of what it takes to write stories. A story isn't meant to be put in a drawer for no one to see. It's meant to be read by others.
So if people are interested in writing stories, there's no beating around the bush when it comes to the emotional turmoil. It cannot be avoided and trying to mitigate such turmoil can only be done so far before the participants have to just accept the facts of what it means to write fiction and have people read it.
And engagement is a big problem. As have been mentioned, no one really reads stories outside of the competition since it creates another level of engagement and excitement that doesn't come naturally by just having a section for stories to exist. Like the whole "guess the author" part is really fun.
So, while scoring may be able to be improved, it will never make people who aren't used to putting their heart out on a chopping board like this, feel comfortable. Sometimes there just have to be some acceptance to the fact that all aren't able to handle the turmoil, which is both understandable but also unavoidable.
Writing fiction is agony... fun agony.
I don't understand what you mean (see bolds). And why would it result in a score being 'improbably accurate'. Can you explain, please?
Maybe I'm not understanding. Whether or not it happens at the end, you still see other people's votes when you vote, no?
Thanks, @Amity, for making us all feel special :sparkle:
I can't remember how it worked before. If you see other people's votes or not. But even if you did, the issue is about 'influence'. If it's at the end, how can it influence you? :chin:
Quoting hypericin
Thank you. I remember very well your fantastic 'Amity-style' feedback to Red, White and Blue.
It gave me such a high! :hearts:
It is indeed a *lot* of work but worth the engagement...up to a point. I admit to struggling this year and will probably cut back a lot next time round.
@Vera Mont did and does a fantastic job. She gives her all as experienced author and exceptional reviewer. On a desert island, her story 'Dawn' would feed me forever. Imagining.
I see she's gone AWOL. I hope all is well.
And, of course, your winning story and all the work you do here. Unbelievable commitment :fire:
Congratulations! :flower:
Quoting hypericin
Aw! Well, you are all special and all winners, in my eyes. Feel the lurv :heart:
Bye for now...
There were a few that might have ended up being harder to read due to not utilizing Pastebin so maybe that could help those who didn't dare to use it?
-Amity
Intuition is a retro two way street, where more complexity is contained where from more intuitive sources can more resourcefully apprehended.
Intuition does offer an impetus to go on, where plot progression, and an overplay of derived simplicity may block those attempts .
For it is at the edge of reason that could be said that intuition and dreams may be the certain conduit.
:100:, her insights as an seasoned author were spot on. The fact that she is so experienced and willing to offer so much of her time made her invaluable. Thank you @Vera Mont, it is deeply appreciated!!
:smile:
I think writers appreciate and learn from comments made and questions asked. It seems to me that there has been an increased effort and enjoyment all round. The writers' feedback is also appreciated. Muchly.
Well-chosen words from people like yourself can mean a lot.
Kudos to you and team for continuing and improving this veritable Feast of Creativity. :clap: :sparkle:
:pray:
Grateful to have participated in the customary renewal of sharing frameworks of ideas on which stories are built upon .
Kudos to every aspiration that know failure.