What is the way to deal with inequalities?
Inequality is the root cause of dishonesty.
e.g. good <-> evil, rich <-> poor, beautiful <-> ugly, young <-> old, high <-> low, correct <-> wrong, have <-> not have, strong <-> weak, left <-> right, subjective <-> objective, absolute <-> relative, Life <-> Death
For each unequal situation, we can find a dishonest example in daily life.
e.g. violence: strong <-> weak, hypocrite: correct <-> wrong.
This world is not equal and we cant change it externally.
But there is a way to deal with the inequalities and be peaceful & honest.
What is the way? The Identity of Contraries?
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Chinese medicine says about 5,000 years ago,
everyone lived one hundred years without showing the usual signs of aging.
I read the following paragraph which describes the society of that time.
I don't quite understand it, so I started this philosophy discussion.
Chinese medicine is always studied together with philosophy.
-The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine (Maoshing Ni) , chapter 1-
The accomplished ones of ancient times advised people to guard themselves against zei feng, disease-causing factors. On the mental level, one should remain calm and avoid excessive desires and fantasies, recognizing and maintaining the natural purity and clarity of the mind. When internal energies are able to circulate smoothly and freely, and the energy of the minds is not scattered, but is focused and concentrated, illness and disease can be avoided.
Previously, people led a calm and honest existence, detached from undue desire and ambition; they lived with an untainted conscience and without fear. They were active, but never depleted themselves. Because the lived simply, these individuals knew contentment, as reflected in their diet of basic but nourishing foods and attire that was appropriate to the season but never luxurious. Since they were happy with their position in life, they did not feel jealousy or greed. They had compassion for others and were helpful and honest, free from destructive habits. They remained unshakable and unswayed by temptations, and they were able to stay centered even when adversity arose. They treated others justly, regardless of their level of intelligence or social position.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP4ouNyTd0I
in this video 30:45, 34:58, 35:50, the Greek island people and researchers said their secret to live long & healthy is to have an equal mind and society.
Please check this guy's picture in this interview at 12:20.
He is 104 years old and still looks young!
https://youtu.be/BIWibXSOfNg?si=GwYMgUoiDwpRcaB_
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-Chuang Tz? (Giles)/Chapter 2, The Identity of Contraries
**Belong to:**
The white horse and the black horse both fall under the category of horses.
In essence, both the white and black horses are horses, highlighting their similarity.
**As a whole thing:**
In one scenario, a monkey receives 3 fruits in the morning and 4 fruits in the evening,
while in another scenario, it gets 4 fruits in the morning and 3 in the evening.
Regardless of the variation, both situations result in the monkey acquiring a total of 7 fruits a day, establishing the equivalence of both scenarios.
**Existence:**
Nothing on Earth existed in the past, and nothing will persist in the future.
Throughout time, only the universe or heaven endures.
Consequently, everything on Earth shares the same transitory nature.
**Compare to infinite space or time:**
When viewed from outer space, everything on Earth appears minute.
Similarly, considering the expansive timeframe from the beginning of the universe until now, everything on Earth virtually exists within an infinitesimally small span.
In this context, everything on Earth is alike, as each entity is extremely small or exists for an exceedingly brief period.
----------------------------------------------------
Previous question for Inequality & dishonesty.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14828/what-characterizes-the-mindset-associated-with-honesty
e.g. good <-> evil, rich <-> poor, beautiful <-> ugly, young <-> old, high <-> low, correct <-> wrong, have <-> not have, strong <-> weak, left <-> right, subjective <-> objective, absolute <-> relative, Life <-> Death
For each unequal situation, we can find a dishonest example in daily life.
e.g. violence: strong <-> weak, hypocrite: correct <-> wrong.
This world is not equal and we cant change it externally.
But there is a way to deal with the inequalities and be peaceful & honest.
What is the way? The Identity of Contraries?
-----------------------------------------------------
Chinese medicine says about 5,000 years ago,
everyone lived one hundred years without showing the usual signs of aging.
I read the following paragraph which describes the society of that time.
I don't quite understand it, so I started this philosophy discussion.
Chinese medicine is always studied together with philosophy.
-The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine (Maoshing Ni) , chapter 1-
The accomplished ones of ancient times advised people to guard themselves against zei feng, disease-causing factors. On the mental level, one should remain calm and avoid excessive desires and fantasies, recognizing and maintaining the natural purity and clarity of the mind. When internal energies are able to circulate smoothly and freely, and the energy of the minds is not scattered, but is focused and concentrated, illness and disease can be avoided.
Previously, people led a calm and honest existence, detached from undue desire and ambition; they lived with an untainted conscience and without fear. They were active, but never depleted themselves. Because the lived simply, these individuals knew contentment, as reflected in their diet of basic but nourishing foods and attire that was appropriate to the season but never luxurious. Since they were happy with their position in life, they did not feel jealousy or greed. They had compassion for others and were helpful and honest, free from destructive habits. They remained unshakable and unswayed by temptations, and they were able to stay centered even when adversity arose. They treated others justly, regardless of their level of intelligence or social position.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP4ouNyTd0I
in this video 30:45, 34:58, 35:50, the Greek island people and researchers said their secret to live long & healthy is to have an equal mind and society.
Please check this guy's picture in this interview at 12:20.
He is 104 years old and still looks young!
https://youtu.be/BIWibXSOfNg?si=GwYMgUoiDwpRcaB_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-Chuang Tz? (Giles)/Chapter 2, The Identity of Contraries
**Belong to:**
The white horse and the black horse both fall under the category of horses.
In essence, both the white and black horses are horses, highlighting their similarity.
**As a whole thing:**
In one scenario, a monkey receives 3 fruits in the morning and 4 fruits in the evening,
while in another scenario, it gets 4 fruits in the morning and 3 in the evening.
Regardless of the variation, both situations result in the monkey acquiring a total of 7 fruits a day, establishing the equivalence of both scenarios.
**Existence:**
Nothing on Earth existed in the past, and nothing will persist in the future.
Throughout time, only the universe or heaven endures.
Consequently, everything on Earth shares the same transitory nature.
**Compare to infinite space or time:**
When viewed from outer space, everything on Earth appears minute.
Similarly, considering the expansive timeframe from the beginning of the universe until now, everything on Earth virtually exists within an infinitesimally small span.
In this context, everything on Earth is alike, as each entity is extremely small or exists for an exceedingly brief period.
----------------------------------------------------
Previous question for Inequality & dishonesty.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14828/what-characterizes-the-mindset-associated-with-honesty
Comments (232)
The acceptance and appreciation of individuality.
This will work if we stop listening to the publicity and marketing.
I disagree. "Dishonesty" is caused by intelligence; it is often an effective social, business or political tactic.
The world is not static, it is entropic and chaotic. Because we are inseparable from the world, we can only slow or accelerate, not stop, its changes.
My guess: scientific understanding × nonzero sum practices.
Arent those just complementary pairs?
Are inequality/dishonesty complementary in the same degree or manner?
Then it caused the gap between rich and poor.
States started war with each other, to get more power and richness.
It collapses the original balanced moral system.
End up the first emperor burned 3,000 years of books, to make people not able to think.
So people could not be against him.
Adam and Eve ate the Apple, so they know the 'Good & Evil', then it started the beginning of sin?
What makes people distinguish?
Perception? Cognition?
What makes inequality dramatically trigger a human's mind, to a level it's hard to get rid of it?
The selfish gene. In nature, animals that have some advantage over others of their species succeed at living longer and having more offspring than the others. This means that their [aggressive, ambitious] genes are passed on to more new members of the species. This is offset by the need to fit into a social group for the survival of those offspring, so that friendly and co-operative genes are also passed on. In humans, both traits are present and the notorious big brain serves both - not in the same proportion in each specimen. Everyone desires some advantage, some way to be better, smarter, faster, stronger, more talented, more charming or more beautiful than others of of our species. But we're not all willing to pay the same price or make the same amount of effort or take the same risks to achieve it.
:up: :up:
Quoting YiRu Li
The Meek shall inherit the Earth
what's left of it, once the Bold are done striving
Good points!
I guess it's the inequality that triggers the human's mind most profoundly.
But we may not be aware of it.
We may think it's other things.
eg. 'have' kids <-> 'not have' kids.
Or even if we can think everything is equal, we still need to follow the existing reality of inequality rules to deal with the relationship with others.
e.g. Is getting a 0 score in the exam the same as getting 100 scores, for a young person?
But to deal with the root cause of the sad mind and chaos of the world.
Inequality is the thing to discuss.
Philosophy may be the best efficiently way, to practice our mind to get enlightenment on inequality topics.
It's good to get it a try and see.
Second, what is that society capable of? Is it still a hunger gatherer society? Does it have modern infrastructure? What is the basic minimum technology needed to perform at this floor within that society?
Third, what is the minimum expected output of work for a human to obtain these things? Such a minimum should not be taxing to the point where the individual suffers undue calculable harm vs the benefits it brings them. In a hunter gatherer society, hunting poses risks, but is necessary to meet the minimum standards of being able to eat.
Fourth, what is the individual capable of doing within society? Are they disabled? Weak? Smart? Strong? We should expect such people to be able to contribute with their strengths, and not push them to work in ways that constantly expose their weaknesses.
As a starting point, I believe a society should work with these ideas in mind. Of course, as others work past these minimum requirements and further technology and outcomes, the floor will rise and things will need to be readjusted. The invention of a wheel chair allows a person who cannot walk new mobility. Medication for psychiatric disorders and let a person function normally. The invention of the internet allows new social connections and immediately accessible knowledge.
Because of this, a maximum ceiling of benefits should only be considered in the case where this prevents the floor from rising, or pushes the floor down for others. Other than that, we need people who push past the floor because it is the only way we rise as a species.
What you call "inequality", I call "perception", and "thought".
When your eyes can pick A apart from B, that is perception.
When your mind can play with A and B, put A in these conceptual buckets, B in those, combine them, pull them apart, that is thought.
Eyes that cannot see and brains that cannot think cannot do these things. The only way to escape inequality, to return to a "oneness" where differences melt away, is to die.
One of my old outdoor colleagues once said of my rock climbing,
He's not bold . . . but he doesn't need to be.
The meek are not necessarily the weak.
And the bold are not necessarily strong.
For rock climbing, you need physical strength and courage. For material success in the world, you need high self-regard and the will to seize opportunities.
An ethical system.
Interesting! What happened to Nietzsche, so he made this conclusion/Aphorism? What did he observe?
Good point!
Will an ethical system create more inequality, more distinction on correct <-> wrong?
Adam and Eve ate the Apple, so they know the 'Good & Evil', which started the beginning of sin?
Then they found out they were naked, so God made clothes for them.
I guess an ethical system is the 'clothes', which is a prevention/temporary solution.
We still need to fix the root cause 'the Apple', which changed the way Adam and Eve look at things.
How to turn our mind back to the original / nature, to antidote 'the Apple'?
I guess that's why philosophy discusses dealing with inequality or the way to see things.
Human instrumentality
One can draw all sorts of conclusions from George's choice, negative or positive, but His teachings provide a way of life that could mitigate all those inequalities. Just a thought.
Inequality as a philosophy topic has its history background.
3,000 years ago, silk road trading was already very popular.
But when the merchants passed the silk road, a big challenge was that people who lived along the silk road would rob the merchants.
All big civilizations along the silk road used strong military and education to deal with the loot issue.
Merchants (Jews) supported and were philosophy missionaries on silk road was already very popular from 3,000 years ago.
I guess Jesus was hired by those missionary merchants at his age 13, to help merchants do mission works all along the silk road.
From Chinese history and culture influence of the silk road, we can see Jesus was a superstar on the silk road!
I guess when Jesus taught people on the silk road, he used the local existing education materials, which at least already had 1,000 years of history.
(Ancient China had a rule: for the princes of the silk road countries, they must come to China and study in a Chinese university as diplomatic hostages.)
Inequality is a very old philosophy topic in China.
Ancient Chinese philosophers said they got this idea from their old teachers.
Their old teachers said they got their idea from even older ancient teachers.
(I actually guess many Chinese philosophers were Jews.)
So it's hard to say Jesus quoted Chinese philosophers, or ancient Chinese philosophers quoted Jesus, if Jesus existed a long time ago.
Well, it's a politically expedient answer for a politician who doesn't follow the subject of philosophy speaking to an audience who doesn't know of any philosophers.
:up:
The spread of Christianity along the Silk Road likely occurred through the efforts of early Christian communities, missionaries, and traders who carried the teachings of Jesus with them as they traveled. There is certainly no reason to think that a Jeshua Ben Joseph ever taught outside of Judea. It has not been established that Jesus was a real person and the gospels were written anonymously many years, decades, after the events. The Mormons beleive that Jesus settled in the Americas after the resurrection. Mythological figures can do anything.
Quoting YiRu Li
I disagree unless you mean that inequality is caused by dishonesty. Unless you mean that rich people dishonestly help keep the poor in their place through measures like not paying tax and disparaging public services.
Quoting YiRu Li
What does this mean? I would have thought that robust social policy (an external approach) is central in building a more equal society.
Quoting Vera Mont
I'm not sure 'effort' comes into people's biological and social advantages - position, IQ beauty, charm, etc. No matter how hard most people try, they won't ever be George Clooney. It's not always possible to work your way out of disadvantage.
Many people are simply dealt a bad set of cards. I do not believe that there is much they can do without some external power (society/government) assisting them. I have had many advantages and privileges in my life. None I worked particularly hard for. It's largely a function of being born in the right zip code.
Good questions!
If you are a philosophy teacher who teaches dealing with 'Famous <-> Anonymous' inequality,
what will you do to teach it?
A big issue to historically prove Jesus anything is: for the philosophers who taught inequality in ancient times, they would focus on removing 'Famous <-> Anonymous' inequality.
The way they teach 'Famous <-> Anonymous' is: They will do many amazing things and be super influential for thousands of years.
But they don't let people know they did it.
If we study the history of those inequality teaching philosophers, we'll find out sometimes they on purpose hide the history evidence.
They want people who want to know the truth to search for it themselves.
But for the general public or the people who are not qualified to know, they'll hide it.
So a master only has a few disciples.
For some secret knowledge, a teacher only lets those few disciples know.
Not everyone deserves true knowledge.
But if anyone says they are very sure of Jesus' things, we need to doult.
Since it is impossible to be very sure, in a situation he must already destroy history evidence himself. For teaching 'Famous <-> Anonymous'.
But we can search for the truth. Philosophy teachers like us to search.
btw, Chinese authentic civilization has no 'religion' concept or word in language, as western culture.
Things that were taught on the silk road at least from 3,000 years ago are in education or philosophy form.
The silk road crossed many very different civilizations and cultures.
I can only say I understand the Chinese part.
Only the gospel of Matthew is more related to the silk road around China.
Other gospels belong to other civilizations on the silk road, and I'm not sure I understand the culture background behind it.
It's not surprising, for a different audience, using different languages and teaching materials that they are familiar with. right?
What does Z?ngjiào mean?
Z?ngjiào is a translation word for foreign culture entered China.
But it means : teaching from ancestors. still different from the English meaning of 'religion'.
The Chinese somehow changed foreign culture in order to fit Chinese civilization.
General public's worship was forbidden from 5,000 years ago when Chinese civilization was created.
:up:
Good question!
Inequality is a thinking issue. It's about how people see the world.
Will the focus on social policy block out the time for people to practice thinking about it?
Policy is made by complicated processes and not all the people are qualified to get benefits.
But the inequality issue is serious for everyone's life, in all kinds of areas, and we often are not aware of it.
Social policy is a 'thinking issue'. You don't get to robust social policy without lots of thinking and conversation/discussion.
Quoting YiRu Li
Good social policy saves lives. So I think I disagree with you.
Perhaps you can provide a few examples of inequality so that we know what you mean. I am talking about poverty and lack of access to vital resources and services. What are you referring to?
Quoting Tom Storm
Good ideas!
Please help check if this classic allegory is inspiring for your question?
There was a hunchback named Su. His jaws touched his navel. His shoulders were higher than his head. His hair knot looked up to the sky. His viscera were upside down. His buttocks were where his ribs should have been. By tailoring, or washing, he was easily able to earn his living. By sifting rice he could make enough to support a family of ten.
[In all of these occupations a man would necessarily stoop.]
When orders came down for a conscription, the hunchback stood unconcerned among the crowd. And similarly, in matters of public works, his deformity shielded him from being employed.
On the other hand, when it came to donations of grain, the hunchback received as much as three chung, [An ancient measure of uncertain capacity.]
and of firewood, ten faggots. And if physical deformity was thus enough to preserve his body until its allotted end, how much more would not moral and mental deformity avail!
[A moral and mental deviation would be still more likely to condemn a man to that neglect from his fellows which is so conducive to our real welfare.]
-Chuang Tz? (Giles)-
Good point!
In this case, I'd think the 'Life <-> Death' inequality may be the most fundamental inequality that we need to treat than any other inequality.
Maybe that's why Socrates talked about his death?
Maybe Socrates' death completed his teachings?
If I understood the allegory correctly, the physical deformities do not excuse the man's act of morality and responsibility to his own welfare and the community where possible. Further, the man is not expected to perform duties that one with his deformity could not do. Sounds fair to me. I am of the opinion that every person find some way to make themselves of use in this world, no matter their deficiencies. In addition, we as society should serve where we can with everyone included in the benefits, not just a few or those deemed worthy.
I don't see how that works. I mean, obviously, live people are more likely to succeed and reproduce than dead ones, but even the most successful will have to die sometime.
Death seems to me the ultimate equality.
Inequality is much like the concept of change, for the fact that it is guaranteed, a constant, and that is why greed exists, jealousy, hatred, envy, capitalism and colonialism. Equality is like the concept of perfection, totally unrealistic, but an ideal mark to shoot for, one which in fact will never be reached.
:lol:
No, I'm sorry I don't understand your point.
:up:
I appreciate Tom mentioned social policy and everyone's reply that made this question clearer!
Chinese medicine says about 5,000 years ago, everyone lived one hundred years without showing the usual signs of aging.
Can you imagine what social policy looked like at that good ancient time?
I read the following paragraph in 'Classic of Medicine' which describes the society of that time.
I don't quite understand it, so I started this philosophy discussion.
Chinese medicine is always studied together with philosophy.
I hope I show you where my question comes from and that can help you understand it better.
Maybe check the following 'Classic of Medicine' with the 'hunchback Su' allegory.
Chinese ancient historians said Chuang Tz? (b.c. 369) wrote his book according to other ancient books.
I think his 'hunchback Su' allegory is a real example of what ancient time life looks like.
---The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine (Maoshing Ni) , chapter 1---
The accomplished ones of ancient times advised people to guard themselves against zei feng, disease-causing factors. On the mental level, one should remain calm and avoid excessive desires and fantasies, recognizing and maintaining the natural purity and clarity of the mind. When internal energies are able to circulate smoothly and freely, and the energy of the minds is not scattered, but is focused and concentrated, illness and disease can be avoided.
Previously, people led a calm and honest existence, detached from undue desire and ambition; they lived with an untainted conscience and without fear. They were active, but never depleted themselves. Because the lived simply, these individuals knew contentment, as reflected in their diet of basic but nourishing foods and attire that was appropriate to the season but never luxurious. Since they were happy with their position in life, they did not feel jealousy or greed. They had compassion for others and were helpful and honest, free from destructive habits. They remained unshakable and unswayed by temptations, and they were able to stay centered even when adversity arose. They treated others justly, regardless of their level of intelligence or social position.
---Chuang Tz? (Giles), hunchback Su---
There was a hunchback named Su. His jaws touched his navel. His shoulders were higher than his head. His hair knot looked up to the sky. His viscera were upside down. His buttocks were where his ribs should have been. By tailoring, or washing, he was easily able to earn his living. By sifting rice he could make enough to support a family of ten.
[In all of these occupations a man would necessarily stoop.]
When orders came down for a conscription, the hunchback stood unconcerned among the crowd. And similarly, in matters of public works, his deformity shielded him from being employed.
On the other hand, when it came to donations of grain, the hunchback received as much as three chung, [An ancient measure of uncertain capacity.]
and of firewood, ten faggots. And if physical deformity was thus enough to preserve his body until its allotted end, how much more would not moral and mental deformity avail!
[A moral and mental deviation would be still more likely to condemn a man to that neglect from his fellows which is so conducive to our real welfare.]
Many philosophers were talking about death, especially for the inequality issue.
Before I didn't understand why they talked about death?
But after I thought about your post, I finally understand:
If a person can figure out 'Life<-> Death' inequality, then the person will feel easy to deal with other inequality.
I think the best case is Socrates.
But I haven't had time to research what his death is teaching.
If anyone can tell me?
He is special to me because many Chinese philosophers teach how to run away from people who are trying to kill them just because of what they teach.
But Socrates didn't run away.
I also think he can prove philosophy is a good thinking practice for people to deal with inequality issues.
It wasn't about teaching. It was about integrity. The accusations against him were bogus - politically, not morally motivated. He might have been granted exile, since all they really wanted was his silence, but he chose instead to make a stand: he demanded to be rewarded for his service to Athens.
Not everything a philosopher says and does is meant as lesson, and hardly anything in life and death is about equality.
Why did Socrates make a stand: he demanded to be rewarded for his service to Athens.?
proposed his own penalty: that he should be given free food and housing by the state, for the services he rendered to the city???
I really don't understand this part in his trial.
I'd take the apple in the metaphor to represent the knowledge of good and evil, distinguishing humans from the animals that lack such knowledge. I don't see the antidote is returning humans to that animal like state to where we become amoral.
If we're sticking with the metaphor, the question is how we should best respond to the serpent, which represents temptation to do evil.
That is, we know what is right and what is wrong and we have to respond by doing what is right.
He was making a point. In order to understand the trial, you first have to understand his life and principles, as well as the tenor of his times. https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-greece/socrates
There are lots of legends in many different cultures about all kinds of golden eras. Are they true? Probably not.
But I dont think I know what you mean when you say inequality. Perhaps you can list a few examples?
For Chinese medicine to be true or not, this probably needs using your own body to try it. No one can tell you. :sweat:
We found out 'inequality' is an issue when we discussed our last question:
What characterizes the mindset associated with honesty? Considering that individuals may occasionally engage in falsehoods, how do we conceptualize the mindset of honesty? Is 'honest' a noun or a verb? Can one still be deemed an honest person if they occasionally engage in deception?
Do you think the following unenlightened's posts are helpful?
We found out we need to talk about 'inequality' from his posts.
Quoting unenlightened
Quoting unenlightened
What is inequality. Can you define it so I understand where you are coming from?
The best answer so far may be this.
Quoting Wayfarer
But I am till waiting to understand what your definition of inequality is because I fear we are talking about different things.
I was not talking about Chinese medicine - I was talking about whether legends were true. E.g., People living to 100 without showing signs of aging.
Chinese has 5,000 years of history.
We still can easily read any documents from 5,000 years ago.
It's not legends, it's history.
No. As Henry Ford use to say 'History is bunk'. History is written by the victors, is full of myths, legends, half-truths and self-glorifying factoids.
Other countries' things are very hard to learn.
I'm still feeling that much of American culture is impossible for me to learn.
Even though I have lived in the US for 10 years. I can read English.
I probably can't comment on this too much.
I can only tell you where my thoughts come from.
But let's come back to the question above.
Chinese history has a very strong civilization and culture supports the truth.
But if other countries don't have that similar civilization and culture, I can't say the truth in history is there.
But what is that Chinese civilization and culture?
It takes me at least 12 years of school time to learn and I'm still learning it everyday.
It's very hard to describe.
I know when talking about inequality, in western philosophy, political philosophy is more famous.
Glad you'd like to identify it.
I'll let my friend reply to you.
He knows better about philosophy.
Also if anyone here knows it, please feel free to reply. Thanks!
But isn't this what all governments say?
Ancient documents from the near east that have become central to Western civilization tell of a six day creation and a great flood. Does their antiquity and accessibility mean those things actually happened?
Chinese history is only 5,000 years old.
If mapping to the Bible time, it's after 'Tower of the Babel'.
Before that, it's not included in Chinese history.
So Chinese history can not support six day creation and a great flood.
But it can support that Chinese civilization was from the west.
A reformation/new civilization of the older civilizations in the west.
We can find out many old issues in the older civilization, they got reformed in the Chinese civilization.
Huh? Who is your friend?
You asked the question in your OP so you must have a definition, right? Why else would you pose the question?
You asked a question about inequality- you do not need philosophy to define it. Surely you had something in mind you can share?
He is hypericin.
We posted this question together. He is the cohost.
But we did discuss your question in the beginning.
Let's try to describe it.
What? A cohost? So is the OP question yours or not? Are you are real person? :wink:
If you posted the question together why did he respond to the question with this?
Quoting hypericin
Something seems off to me.
If you are unable to define inequality then this is a pointless conversation.
My point was only that because your documents indicate something happened, that doesn't mean that it actually happened, regardless of whether it comes from China or another country.
Time for a quick fact-check.
The earliest Chinese documents are at the earliest from 1400BC, therefore China has at most 3400 years of history. Not even close to 4000, nevermind 5000. Source.
ok, if you think so.
I agree.
Or let's back to the OP?
Which part of OP do you feel it's hard to understand?
I can try to explain to you?
Actually you are asking a good question.
It took me many many years to understand that this OP is a question.
A big issue in life.
I thought I already identified 'inequality' as
e.g. good <-> evil, rich <-> poor, beautiful <-> ugly, young <-> old, high <-> low, correct <-> wrong, have <-> not have, strong <-> weak, left <-> right, subjective <-> objective, absolute <-> relative, Life <-> Death
I am friends with YiRu, she is quite real, and the post is completely her own. She is Taiwanese, not a native English speaker, and she can be intimidated especially by the language, and so she tries to get me involved. Hope you understand, I couldn't imagine trying to post in a forum like this in say Spanish, let alone Chinese!
Anyway, I wonder if the term "inequality" is throwing people off. This term is very suggestive of social and especially economic inequality in English, whereas I think the concept she is going for is "difference". But, that is just my take, @YiRu please feel free to respond in your own words.
For example, if we feel we are born into a rich family, it is not equal as we are born into a poor family. It is inequality. And this feeling of inequality, is the issue of the world.
Ok. So that is not about inequality. Maybe disparity of qualities/attributes?
Quoting hypericin
:up: Yes. Difference. Makes more sense.
Quoting YiRu Li
Now we are back to actual inequality. Answers - democratic socialism, robust social policy.
'born into a rich family or poor family' is 'inequality' to you?
How about this:
'Have' kids or 'Not Have' kids?
If a person is so sad because she can't have kids.
Is this 'have' & 'not have', 'inequality' to you or 'difference' to you?
Yes
[Quoting YiRu Li
For me that's difference. Young and old is difference. Ugly and beautiful is difference. But one might say figuratively in English that such a difference can lead to unequal treatment and unequal experiences of life.
Economic, social and political inequality generally have social policy solutions. Being ugly in a world where beauty has clear advantages and is celebrated is probably best deal with psychologically.
Not being able to have kids? Adoption or a psychological solution.
Thanks for the clarification!
I think our OP is to deal with the unequal feeling ( or unequal treatment and unequal experiences of life ) caused by the difference.
A psychological solution by using philosophy thinking practice, which Chinese medicine is using.
e.g. poor people rob rich people.
How can we educate people, so they can be happy with their position?
As the Chinese medicine says: they were happy with their position in life, they did not feel jealousy or greed.
Of course people will develop more social policies after their mind has changed.
Does the above make sense to you?
Can I still use 'inequality' to say it?
As someone with social justice principles I would never educate people to be happy with their situation. I wouldn't be prefer mechanisms in place through social policy to help lift people out of poverty.
I think you are asking several quesions bundled into one category.
For me the question you are asking involves how people manage psychologically and what the responsibility of a society is towards those on the margins and those who suffer.
Really?
I think people are poor because they didn't use their potential enough.
It's a potential issue.
Everyone is happy with their position after everyone uses their potential, that is pretty safe.
I always feel the homeless people in my neighborhood are very unhappy with themselves, so they give up their life?
Mental illness is triggered by unhappy feelings?
Maybe in different situations we need different solutions?
We can discuss both.
Especially if people only remember to have policy, but forget the philosophy thinking practice to see everyone is equal.
e.g. We can see from the hunchback Su allegory.
At least 2300 years ago, China already had a social policy to give hunchback Su donations.
But people will forget the way hunchback Su sees himself as equal as others.
That seems to me to be a standard right wing politics talking point which I think does disadvantaged people a substantial disservice. It's what we used to call, 'blame the victim.' The reality is society is structured to reward some people and shit on others. Many people who are poor and marginalized work very hard but never get ahead no matter how hard they try. People face barriers because of who they are. Factors such as disability, mental ill health, trauma, physical ill health, etc, require community resources and supports to overcome. You can't make them go away with right wing talking points. :wink: I say this as someone who has worked in the field of disadvantage, addiction and mental ill health for over 30 years. People die because they can't afford housing and health care.
To my mind, governments have no power over civilization and culture, since governments are controlled by the people, and the people make civilizations and culture. Civilizations and cultures also exist for a lot longer than governments.
You may say that all those people are totally wrong about the records of history/culture etc, but that is a lot of people to be wrong. (Of course, nobody, or group of people, are 100 percent correct, and we are talking about history, so there is always some ambiguity, but I mean grey areas, not black and white. You could, as we know, say that everything is uncertain. But I am talking about what is most likely, and that is that the history of China, as it has been recorded, is as true as any history (I suppose, including what exactly we all did yesterday!)
All governments take the credit for work that came before them. All governments are in the business of fostering and restating the significance of cultural myths. And sometimes cultures hold myths above and beyond whatever government is in power. So none of what you say is inconsistent with the point made.
Quoting Beverley
Do any countries tell the truth about their past? I would doubt it. They all go with impressions and political and social expediency. And the idea that there is one accurate account of history is itself farcical.
But really, you would need to take each truth claim from history and hold it up against scholarship in each relevant field. We don't have the time or opportunity to do this here.
Quoting Beverley
Seems a bit simplistic. The role of media and corporate power play a big role in this space and in the end its not about who makes civilisation, its about who tells the story and what they choose to accept, embellish or suppress.
"All"? Are you sure?
Quoting Tom Storm
There isn't one 100% accurate account of anything! But I am talking about getting a general gist of what happened in the past. A huge part of being a historian is weighing up bias and trying to get the closest to the truth as possible. No historian worth their salt would dare to announce that they had found a 100% accurate account of the past. But this doesn't mean that there isn't value to studying history.
Quoting Tom Storm
Are you talking about the people or the governments? It seems hard to tell the difference, and it also seems like a big grouping of a lot of people, but anyway, I would say that as much truth is told about a country's past as is told about a person's past. We all lie to others, and ourselves, but this doesn't mean that we are incapable of being truthful as well. (I mean 'truthful' as far as we know) But then again, these are just my thoughts, based on how I see things. I could be totally wrong, but I love the debate and hearing other people's views on things. :)
I think so. But there may be one or two who don't - let me know who they are. :wink:
We were talking about a claim about a Chinese historical account of people using a specific medicine and living for 100 years, with no sign of ageing. A reference was made to some historical records as proof (which incidentally were not produced), and, regardless, amount to an appeal to tradition fallacy. The rest of this meandering discussion was a generalist account of whether any country's stories about itself can be entirely trusted.
Quoting Beverley
I don't know why you would say this. Many countries are outright liars and cheats in the way most people are not. But would such a claim not depend upon, the country, the individual and the alleged facts we were exploring with either of them? For instance, I would think China's official account of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests would not match the Australian account. I would not think the white Australian account of Aboriginal history would match the historical accounts of the Aboriginal people. Etc, etc. When we are talking about individual's stories we rarely encounter mass murder, intimidation, suppression of opposition views, censorship and fabricated history, the way we do so often with nations, right?
Quoting Beverley
:up: Debate helps keep the skin toned and clear. :wink:
Glad you discussed it.
Will you tell your kids or students the wrong things?
Chinese things are passed by parents to kids, and masters to disciples.
Generation by generation for 5,000 years.
Sometimes the parents and teachers went through wars or countless difficult times, but they still did their best to keep the knowledge and passed it to their kids and students.
Are there any westerner ancestors who passed things to your generation nowadays and you know it is valuable?
I specified above that this is inaccurate. Chinese civilisation is not 5'000 years old, it is short of 3'400, making it younger than Greek but older than Roman and about the same age as Iranian (Avestan).
3,400 years ago books did record earlier ancient books' things.
So 5,000 years ago knowledge is still kept inside the 3,400-year-old books.
Older books' materials can not keep too long.
So the Chinese will keep copy and quote the old books.
Chinese writing has a rule: every article must quote books before it.
Then you point becomes not helpful. Your choice of 5'000 thousand is for no reason (why not 6 or 8), and if it is as you say, there is nothing special about Chinese in this aspect: every language and every culture carries knowledge that is as old as mankind itself.
Chinese genealogy and Chinese calendar records the years.
Chinese civilization was created by the Yellow Emperor.
It didn't exist even one day before Yellow Emperor.
The Chinese have countless ways to keep old things.
I really can not tell all of them too much here.
I suggest if we need, we use the old knowledge as a hint,
We are still back to our discussion.
There are of course, but what we're talking about isn't how information is transmitted, but the accuracy of the trasmission. I would suggest that all cultures pass their mythology down to their children, and there is a reason for that mythology in maintaining a certain culuture and belief system, but that doesn't mean that the wars of the Bible, for example, actually occurred as set out or whether they occured at all.
The Bible (which is the Western example) describes battles that the ancient Hebrews either heroically won or that they lost due to their failure to do the will of God. That is, it's all set forth with the Hebrews being the center of importance, maintaining a theme that justice prevails when one acts in accordance with God's law.
The point being that history accuracy, particularly the ancient sort, did not rely upon the modern sorts of rules we apply to historical accuracy today. They did not make sure the sources were double checked, that opposing accounts were considered, or that physical evidence was examined. They made sure it maintained a certain narrative they wanted advanced.
For a specific answer to your question, within Judaism, for example, there is a concept known as L'dor v'dor, which literally means "from generation to generation," a talmudic requirement that "is understood to mean the transmission of the culture's values, rituals, traditions, and history to the next generation."
https://pjlibrary.org/beyond-books/pjblog/december-2016/what-is-ldor-vdor
What existed before the Yellow Emperor?
Supposedly no unified China, just a collection of tribes, afaik.
Other older civilizations.
Chinese migrated from older civilizations.
If we study Chinese civilization, we will find out it's a reformation based on older civilizations.
Many issues in older civilizations got reformed in Chinese civilization.
Chinese need to study western and older civilizations, in order to understand Chinese civilizations.
For this we can google Yellow Emperor.
When we know the Yellow Emperor, we also can see what China that land looked like.
What makes you think any one culture has more or less truth than any other? Chinese chroniclers can't embellish, exaggerate, concentrate on one aspect of time while ignoring another? Ever hear of the cult of Chairman Mao? The whole China derail seems to me irrelevant to a current discussion.
Quoting YiRu Li
This makes no sense in any measure of equality that I've ever encountered. It's a list of equal opposites. Among what or whom are you seeking equality - and what kind of equality? Or do you mean similarity?
An apple from the grocery store is equal to a car in some ways, unequal in others. Two apples from the grocery store are also unequal in some ways, to some degree. None of the examples are opposites and none are alive.
Maybe somehow meaningful to our discussion.
Because Chinese civilization is from western and all other older civilizations.
The Chinese race itself is a big mix of all other races.
So our discussion may be related to all other civilizations.
Maybe somehow older knowledge was lost in other places, but got recorded in Chinese civilization.
But how is it related to the OP?
This we may need to ask Hanover, Lionino, Beverley, Tom Storm.
Maybe they see something we don't see.
As a small contribution, the word civilization implies a few things, such as written language. There were other societies before Chinese society of course, but none of them that we know would be classified as civilisation, as they had no written record.
I'm asking you, since you introduced both subjects and have not, as far as I can tell, given comprehensible answers to questions about either.
I do hear historians say when they study no word society, they will reference Chinese records.
Because the Chinese recorded those no word societies.
e.g. The Chinese record everything along the silk road.
Chinese even record what they looked like, eg. white skin, blue eyes, blond hair...
I think I can use your case with Socrates' death to describe equality.
When Socrates had a higher value 'dignity', that he wanted to accomplish.
He measured life and death before his death.
He thought death means going to a new place,
being born to the earth is also going to a new place.
He saw life as equal to death.
It was not that important to trace life but lose his dignity.
Also from your case,
If a person has a higher value like 'dignity' they want to pursue.
They may see 'better than others' is not that important to them, if they need to cheat to win a game.
For dignity, 'win a game' is playing a game, 'lose a game' is playing a game.
'Win<->Lose' here is the same for them.
Because they are all 'playing a game'.
Quoting Vera Mont
You are right!
Our history discussion let us find out the Chinese record is for all the civilizations and races.
Chinese itself is a big mix from all other civilizations and races.
Other societies that didn't have words also used Chinese to record things.
We are from the same source.
There is no inequality between nation or race or civilization in Chinese records.
Finding out 'We are from the same source', is another way to see things are equal.
The Identity of Contraries!
I added this 'The Identity of Contraries' in our OP.
This is the philosophy we need to figure out.
It's the philosophy thinking practice which is used in Chinese medicine to maintain a peaceful and concentrated mind.
It also can apply in our career or life difficulties. eg. disadvantage, addiction and mental ill health...
I heard many philosophers already use this 'The Identity of Contraries' way to discuss questions.
If the society is extremely unequal.
e.g. human sacrifice, slavery, bad government.
All these happened sometimes in Chinese history.
We can find out the cheating records through investigation.
We already discussed how 'inequality' will generate 'dishonesty'.
I only checked 5,000 years of Chinese history. I can prove it.
Chinese society is always sometimes good, sometimes bad.
We have many records to compare each different time.
Uh-hu
In another case, if a history can survive, it already means it's true.
Because in history, those cheating people were lazy to make wrong records, they just destroyed all the records.
The most famous case in China is our first emperor, Qin Shi Huang.
His Burning of books and burying of scholars destroyed almost 3,000 years of books before him.
His goal was just wanting everyone stupid, so people would not be against him.
Not sure what you mean with this question but we all pass on incorrect information, prejudices, bigotries and dubious values to children and students all the time. Often we don't know we are doing this. And families often suppress secrets and scandals from each other, particularly the children.
Quoting YiRu Li
Such knowledge is generally a mix of facts, subjective values, myths and the usual prejudices of time and place.
Quoting YiRu Li
I don't use this frame of reference. But obviously we have cultural, political and social practices and values we have inherited, some of which are valued. Including values themselves. But as a principle, I don't revere anything based on tradition. Much of what we inherit from previous generations is not valuable - things like misogyny, homophobia, colonisation, various approaches to capitalism.
Good points!
Colonialism is not totally a bad thing.
The Chinese girls' Foot binding for 1,000 years ended because of Colonialism.
Since our discussion is related to Chinese medicine and philosophy (Daoism and other western
or eastern branches).
We can use our own body to try and feel it, if we figure out the philosophy ' The Identity of Contraries'.
Indeed we don't need to care if it's from tradition or history or not.
It can be scientifically proven or proven by ourselves, if it works to our health or career or we can be happier.
If it doesn't work, we can return it!
The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine is the most foundation medical book in Chinese medicine for 2,000 years.
Everyone who uses Chinese medicine reads this book.
I only can quote it if I want to say something about it.
Great points!
If we take Chinese medicine that description as a clue.
Before Apple, humans were:
Simple body + Simple brain = Healthy
After Apple, humans became:
Simple body + Super complicated brain => Mental & Physical illness! The world is chaotic!
But divine beings look like they can handle super complicated knowledge and are still very healthy.
There are two possibilities here:
1. Divine beings' bodies are different.
2. Divine beings know how to think and exercise to deal with complicated knowledge in their brain.
But the human body can not be changed.
To solve the issue,
the prophets needed to teach humans how to think and exercise as the divine beings, to handle the complicated brain.
This is what you said: We should best respond to the serpent. We have to respond by doing what is right.
This is the antidote.
e.g. The philosophy about dealing with inequality - The Identity of Contraries; Socrates' and Plato's teachings
Also from great people's thinking as examples, the human brain can be great through thinking. We can level up our brains by correct thinking.
UN. Universal Declaration of Human rights.
A moral equality is stipulated. It is to be understood that we are not equal in talent, physique, intelligence, inheritance, education, power, social standing, opportunity, wealth, or personal morality. Nevertheless, every individual from the lowest to the highest socially is the source of values, and as such is infinitely valuable to themselves. and this is the source of the equality that founds the moral brotherhood of man. for a Christian - [quote=Matthew 25:40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me[/quote]
Thus the duty of the peasant is to feed his family, and the duty of the Emperor is to feed his people, and the duty of those that have much is to look after those who have nothing. And this duty arises immediately alongside the privilege of ownership. If you expect others to respect your property rights, you need to respect their right to exist. This is called a social contract. It is a mutual arrangement for organising social living, that allows farming and thus cities and civilisation.
I offer here the most definitive, authoritative sources of the West on your topic, and my best interpretation of them, which will no doubt be disputed here.
But I will be most interested in hearing from you how this very general formulation aligns with Lao Tsu, Confucious and Maoist philosophical traditions.
Yeah, I guess that makes up for slavery, robbery, barbarity and genocide.
And given the above, for me, one of the important aspects of the Western tradition in more recent times (contested though it might be in some parts) is that the state can and has played a key role in helping to level out some of those differences by providing or subsidising medical care, education, training and housing for those less privileged citizens, particularly those on the margins.
I appreciate everyone take time to discuss history and reply that made this question clearer!
Chinese civilization loves history background check and already did it for 5,000 years.
We indeed need to talk about history for this question.
Where Chinese civilization's creator 'Yellow Emperor 'came from is a mystery.
But some archaeologists think he is Proto-Indo-Europeans.
In 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine',
Yellow Emperor said he heard:
in the past, everyone lived one hundred years without showing the usual signs of aging.
Because Yellow Emperor moved to China from somewhere else,
so he must not talk about people in China.
He must talk about people in older civilization areas.
Until I watched these long life people video series,
I finally understand what 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' says.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP4ouNyTd0I
(in this video 30:45, 34:58, 35:50,
the Greek island people and researchers said their secret to live long & healthy is to have an equal mind and society.)
I'd guess what Yellow Emperor mentioned is Greeks.
I've put this video on the OP, so you may easily check it and find some philosophy for inequality!
----------------------------------
For thousands years, 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' is always studied together with philosophy 'I Ching' (philosophy of change), Laozi ? Zhuang Zi (philosophy of equal).
I guess when we talk about inequality, we need to talk about 'change'?
I guess Laozi ? Zhuang Zi are Jews after I background checked their history.
They all lived in a city 'Kaifeng', where many Jewish merchants lived in ancient time for silk road business.
All the ancient Chinese philosophers went to 'Kaifeng' to discuss philosophy.
Li & Zhuang are also Jews' last name in Chinese.
Chinese official history says Laozi went everywhere on the silk road to teach his philosophy.
He went to India and became Buddha's teacher.
I guess Laozi is also related to Greek philosopher Thales.
I only wish we could have discussed the actual OP question, and with less of the cultural drum-beating.
Great question!
Because the Yellow Emperor was talking about things before him.
Chinese words were created by his order.
I can not use Chinese history to prove history before 5,000 years.
But if the Yellow Emperor was talking about Greeks.
If I use the Bible time from Genesis 11: 10-26.
The Yellow Emperor is about The Tower of Babel time.
About Peleg time in the Bible.
If you can find Greek history before 5,000 years ago, maybe you can prove it.
But checking Greek history is out of my ability.
Since I always see English translations that misunderstand Chinese history or culture.
Many important Chinese histories are not translated into English.
I think only local people can best understand their own history.
But I think we don't need history to prove it.
Modern Greeks can also prove Chinese medicine is correct.
Please check this guy's picture in this interview video at 12:20.
He is 104 years old and still looks young !
https://youtu.be/BIWibXSOfNg?si=GwYMgUoiDwpRcaB_
Quoting boagie
:up:
I know when Zhuang Zi talked about inequality, he also talked about 'Change'.
Also ChungZi this book is always study with 'I Ching' (philosophy of change) for thousand years.
But I don't quite understand how to think about 'inequality' with 'change'.
I only know Zhuang Zi teaches: don't against the trend of the change.
e.g. In a bull stock market, don't do short or be very careful when we do short.
or when things happen, accept that must many reasons made it happen. So just go with it, not let it stir our peaceful mind.
:up:
No. I'm not going to accept the example of one guy or even 100 guys. My grandfather lived to 98 and was healthy as a horse. He smoked two packets of cigarettes a day and drank half a bottle of gin a day. He died in his sleep, having had very few sick days in his life.
Would I argue that cigarettes and gin were the secret of his longevity?
I would need a mountain of good scientific evidence to accept any claims of alternative medicine.
Good! if so, we should focus on figuring out the philosophy.
The power behind the long life is philosophy.
I think for general Taiwanese and Chinese, even in ancient time illiterate people,
we study equality philosophy like Laozi ? Zhuang Zi because people are using Chinese medicine.
Studying the philosophy is for our health.
If people do inequality things or abusing others, we'll think that person will be short life or unhealthy.
(Maybe Greeks think as the same way as Chinese? If they claim their long life is because of their equal mind and society?)
Confucius is taught in the school, about moral.
School teachers don't let us understand Laozi ? Zhuang Zi too much when we are young.
Because teachers and parents will be afraid young students will think getting 0 scores in the exam is equal to getting 100 scores in the exam.
What is the motivation for westerners to do equality?
I think the most basic motivation for Taiwanese and Chinese to do equality is for health.
Preventing suffering and promoting flourishing - often based on a human rights or sacredness of the individual frame.
Quoting YiRu Li
I'm known many abusive, nasty people who lived very long lives. Hence the well known expression 'only the good die young.'
I think so!
In Zhuang Zi, it is translated to 'The Identity of Contraries'.
But it's very hard to understand sometimes.
I hope the discussion here can make it easier to understand.
I heard a Taiwanese philosophy professor said western philosophy is very good at 'The Identity of Contraries'.
Which is achieved through Absolute Knowing. But to figure out how this is achieved, students of Kabbalah and the Gnostic Ogdoad will need to first watch the reboot, Neon Genesis EvanHegellion.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/687nlpi.jpeg
[/img]
Now I ask, what is the synthesis, the absolute spirit of our Yebisu premium?
I see now.
Equality has different kinds and levels.
Is that possible for you to describe 'Neon Genesis EvanHegellion' & 'Human instrumentality' you are talking about?
It may help us understand our OP by seeing different equality?
e.g.
I'd say that the western equality unenlightened post is 'equality by law'.
If I don't use Chinese medicine or Eastern Philosophy or Greeks' long life secret to describe the equality of our OP,
I'd say our OP is about : Matthew 19:21: Jesus said to him, If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. or Socrates' death.
Quoting L'éléphant
:up:
-----
"Before conditions existed, Tao was. Before definitions existed. Speech was. Subjectively, we are conscious of certain delimitations which are:
Right and? Left
Relationship? and Obligation
Division and Discrimination
Emulation and Contention
These are called the Eight Predicables."
...
"The true Sage," answered Tz? Ch'i, "keeps his knowledge within him, while men in general set forth theirs in argument, in order to convince each other. And therefore it is said that in argument he does not manifest himself."
[Others try to establish their own subjective view. The true Sage remains passive, aiming only at the annihilation of contraries.]
--Chuang Tz? (Giles)/Chapter 2 The Identity of Contraries [24]
-----
What did give Speech definitions? What can hide the truth by using speech?
What can annihilate contraries? Dialectic?
Did politicians already use 'Dialectic' in their talks?
True, sharing sounds better than argument.
Quoting Vaskane
Maybe when Nietzsche said the above, he did keep his knowledge within him?
Quoting Vaskane
Do you think Nietzsche knew Chuang Tz??
Chuang Tz? also has a similar concept in the following very popular allegory:
-------
MY life has a limit, but my knowledge is without limit. To drive the limited in search of the limitless, is fatal; and the knowledge of those who do this is fatally lost.
In striving for others, avoid fame. In striving for self, avoid disgrace. Pursue a middle course. Thus you will keep a sound body, and a sound mind, fulfil your duties, and work out your allotted span.
Prince Hui's cook was cutting up a bullock. Every blow of his hand, every heave of his shoulders, every tread of his foot, every thrust of his knee, every whshh of rent flesh, every chhk of the chopper, was in perfect harmony,rhythmical like the dance of the Mulberry Grove, simultaneous like the chords of the Ching Shou.
[Commentators are divided in their identifications of these ancient morceaux.]
"Well done!" cried the Prince. "Yours is skill indeed."
"Sire," replied the cook; "I have always devoted myself to Tao. It is better than skill. When I first began to cut up bullocks, I saw before me simply whole bullocks. After three years' practice, I saw no more whole animals.
[Meaning that he saw them, so to speak, in sections.]
And now I work with my mind and not with my eye. When my senses bid me stop, but my mind urges me on, I fall back upon eternal principles. I follow such openings or cavities as there may be, according to the natural constitution of the animal. I do not attempt to cut through joints: still less through large bones.
[For a curious parallelism, see Plato's Phaedrus, 265.]
"A good cook changes his chopper once a year,because he cuts. An ordinary cook, once a month,because he hacks. But I have had this chopper nineteen years, and although I have cut up many thousand bullocks, its edge is as if fresh from the whetstone. For at the joints there are always interstices, and the edge of a chopper being without thickness, it remains only to insert that which is without thickness into such an interstice.
[These words help to elucidate a much-vexed passage in ch. xliii of the Tao-Tê-Ching. See The Remains of Lao Tz?, p. 30.]
By these means the interstice will be enlarged, and the blade will find plenty of room. It is thus that I have kept my chopper for nineteen years as though fresh from the whetstone.
"Nevertheless, when I come upon a hard part where the blade meets with a difficulty, I am all caution. I fix my eye on it. I stay my hand, and gently apply my blade, until with a hwah the part yields like earth crumbling to the ground. Then I take out my chopper, and stand up, and look around, and pause, until with an air of triumph I wipe my chopper and put it carefully away."
"Bravo!" cried the Prince. "From the words of this cook I have learnt how to take care of my life."
[Meaning that which informs life, sc. the soul.]
--Chuang Tz? (Giles)/Chapter 3, Nourishment of the Soul
-------
1. Why can a person annihilate contradictories, it will reflect to his career like 'art'?
I guess that's because he knows the way to deal with everything according to 'The Identity of Contraries'?
2. Why can a person do his career like 'art', he can annihilate contradictions?
I guess he learned the skill through practice?
Quoting Tom Storm
Quoting Vera Mont
Quoting jgill
Quoting boagie
:up:
I summarized the core logic from Chuang Tz? about dealing with inequality.
Maybe it will help answer your questions.
-Chuang Tz? (Giles)/Chapter 2, The Identity of Contraries
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Chuang_Tz%C5%AD_(Giles)/Chapter_2
*Belong to
White horse belongs to horse, black horse belongs to horse.
White horse and black horse both are horses.
So black house and white horse are the same.
*As a whole thing
A monkey gets 3 fruits in the morning & gets 4 fruits in the evening.
V.S. gets 4 fruits in the morning & gets 3 in the evening.
In both situations, the monkey gets a total of 7 fruits a day.
So both situations are the same.
*Existence
Everything on the earth didn't exist before. In the future it'll not exist.
All the time only the universe or heaven exists.
So everything on the earth is the same.
*Compare to infinite space or time
From outer space to looking at the earth, everything on the earth looks very small.
Compare the time from the beginning of the universe until now, everything on the earth almost exists in a 0 time.
So everything on the earth is the same, because all are super small or lasting in a very short time.
So if we apply this logic to Jesus verses.
the least of these My brethren belongs to a human. Jesus belongs to a human.
the least of these My brethren and Jesus are the same.
So things done to the least of these My brethren, is the same as things done to Jesus.
From Chinese civilization's view, Jesus provides many examples to apply these abstract equality logics in every aspect of our daily life, in the Gospel.
This logic is also applied to Chinese medicine to keep a peaceful mind.
If the emotions favor something too strong, it will trigger the unbalance of the Autonomic Nervous system and Endocrine system.
Chinese medicine is about philosophy, Qigong, acupuncture (healing power from our own body), and herbs (healing power from nature. e.g. forest).
It is a preventive medicine.
It thinks small sickness will accumulate to big sickness, then big sickness will lead to death.
Chinese medicine is very promised to prevent and treat small sicknesses.
But not that focus on treating big sickness as western medicine.
(Im afraid the philosophy behind is: Life<->Death is the same.
It actually doesnt suggest taking too much extra effort to pursue life.
It should go with nature, e.g. healthy lifestyles.)
There is lots of scientific research about how Chinese medicine treats the Autonomic Nervous system and Endocrine system.
I provided some history in our discussions, because Chinese civilization is from other older civilizations or races, reformed.
I think a similar concept is also in western philosophy.
Do you think equality will be easier to achieve, if we think it in a logical & scientific way, and apply it to daily life?
instead of in a law way?
Of course we need equality at the 'law' level.
Not everyone can have enlightenment in philosophy.
:up:
In the previous post, I delineated four logics for equality.
I believe the 'social policy' you mentioned is an application of at least one of the equality logics I listed. Can you identify which of these logics corresponds to the 'social policy'?
**Belong to:**
The white horse and the black horse both fall under the category of horses.
In essence, both the white and black horses are horses, highlighting their similarity.
**As a whole thing:**
In one scenario, a monkey receives 3 fruits in the morning and 4 fruits in the evening,
while in another scenario, it gets 4 fruits in the morning and 3 in the evening.
Regardless of the variation, both situations result in the monkey acquiring a total of 7 fruits a day, establishing the equivalence of both scenarios.
**Existence:**
Nothing on Earth existed in the past, and nothing will persist in the future.
Throughout time, only the universe or heaven endures.
Consequently, everything on Earth shares the same transitory nature.
**Compare to infinite space or time:**
When viewed from outer space, everything on Earth appears minute.
Similarly, considering the expansive timeframe from the beginning of the universe until now, everything on Earth virtually exists within an infinitesimally small span.
In this context, everything on Earth is alike, as each entity is extremely small or exists for an exceedingly brief period.
For instance -
Quoting YiRu Li
So what? I take this as a given. But it is not a helpful frame in dealing with a homeless woman and child on the street who are starving. I can't see how this is any different to the economist Keynes' often misused quote, "In the long run we are all dead".
Quoting YiRu Li
A very unhelpful frame when dealing with a man who is dying of cancer in a deserted building, unable to get medical treatment and any type of assistance owing to poverty. How do we apply the above: "Don't worry, Sir. Your suffering doesn't amount to anything significant when measured against the infinity of space and the tininess of our planet?" As an approach to the matter of human suffering, I would call this sociopathic.
In most instances inequality and injustice equate to suffering and exclusion. These can be addressed with practical support and resources. We also know from history and current interventions around the world that the suffering and inequality can be alleviated.
There is no question that there are some people who think poverty is merely a fact of life (some may even misuse a Bible quote from John, "For the poor always ye have with you...") and therefore can be safely avoided. This is generally a variety of right wing thinking that I personally find abhorrent and sociopathic.
:up:
It's Amazing you can see these logics from poor people's view.
It is more blessed to give than to receive.
How about seeing these logics from the givers' view?
Will it help the givers to donate more of his money, instead of only keeping his money for his own children or family or his personal enjoyment?
Can you identify which of these logics corresponds to the 'social policy'? from the givers' view?
**Belong to:**
The white horse and the black horse both fall under the category of horses.
In essence, both the white and black horses are horses, highlighting their similarity.
**As a whole thing:**
In one scenario, a monkey receives 3 fruits in the morning and 4 fruits in the evening,
while in another scenario, it gets 4 fruits in the morning and 3 in the evening.
Regardless of the variation, both situations result in the monkey acquiring a total of 7 fruits a day, establishing the equivalence of both scenarios.
**Existence:**
Nothing on Earth existed in the past, and nothing will persist in the future.
Throughout time, only the universe or heaven endures.
Consequently, everything on Earth shares the same transitory nature.
**Compare to infinite space or time:**
When viewed from outer space, everything on Earth appears minute.
Similarly, considering the expansive timeframe from the beginning of the universe until now, everything on Earth virtually exists within an infinitesimally small span.
In this context, everything on Earth is alike, as each entity is extremely small or exists for an exceedingly brief period.
Quoting YiRu Li
What do you mean? Are you saying that it is amazing that we could know that food, housing, medical treatment are critical to people who are poor and have none of these things?
:chin:
e.g.
For 'belong to',
If a 'giver' acknowledges that poor people also 'belong to' the category of humans, they can feel empathy or compassion towards them.
Alternatively, they may consider the possibility that one day they themselves could face financial struggles.
Many individuals perceive poor people as being similar to themselves, prompting them to support social policies.
Social policy exists because people have 'belong to' this concept, not because this world has lots of poor people.
How can we recognize whether we are in a situation of positive or negative inequality?
Often, we may not be fully aware of the circumstances we find ourselves in.
This lack of awareness is why minor health issues can escalate into major ones, eventually culminating in fatal outcomes."
:chin:
Is it 'Plato's Theory of Forms'?
It seems peculiar; essential to the world, yet it takes us a considerable amount of time to comprehend.
I think it is empathy. I suspect humans, as a social species, are hard wired for empathy which is likely foundational to morality and human rights. It helps us survive as a speciies if we all collaborate and work together for the common good. The advantage of this is often described by philosophers and evolutionary biologists as reciprocal altruism.
Not empathy, or not just empathy. Remember that empathy is hard-wired, based on mirror neurons. Whereas our notions of social equality have changed radically in mere decades and centuries.
I think moral progress is social, and primarily consists in expanding the circle of who gets to be a moral agent, worthy of empathy. Moral regression is just the opposite, constricting that circle.
The poor are always a hotly contested area in this regard. There are always those who consider them unworthy, unimportant, deserving of their condition, and fundamentally unequal with their economic betters.
:up:
Do you mean our life is an 'ART'?
It's most beautiful in its 'natural' ways.
However, we may or may not treat it as 'ART,' and this deviates from the 'natural' way.
Manufactured inequality is an example.
As artists, can we examine the manufactured and reversible aspects and restore them to their original natural beauty?
Quoting Tom Storm
If it's not 'Plato's Theory of Forms'?
Maybe you resonate with the concept of 'Tao'?
Quoting unenlightened
Authentic Chinese civilization has never stipulated the concept of equality or morality; it is referred to as 'Tao.'
'Tao' could be translated as 'The Way', 'Science', 'Key Point', '20/80 Principle', or 'Enlightenment Thinking'. or even 'Holy spirit'.
The following allegory explains 'Tao':
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuang Tz? (Giles)/Chapter 24, Hsü Wu Kuei [316]
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Chuang_Tz%C5%AD_(Giles)/Chapter_24
When the Yellow Emperor went to see Tao upon the Chü-tz'? Mountain,
Fang Ming was his charioteer, Chang Yü sat on his right, Chang Jo and Hsi P'êng were his outriders, and K'un Hun and Hua Chi brought up the rear.
[Commentators tear this passage to tatters.]
On reaching the wilds of Hsiang-cheng,
[The limit of the known.]
these seven Sages lost their way and there was no one of whom to ask the road. By and by, they fell in with a boy who was grazing horses, and asked him, saying, "Do you know the Chü-tz'? Mountain?"
"I do," replied the boy.
"And can you tell us," continued the Sages, "where Tao abides?"
"I can," replied the boy.
"This is a strange lad," cried the Yellow Emperor. "Not only does he know where the Chü-tz'? Mountain is, but also where Tao abides! Come tell me, pray, how would you govern the empire?"
"I should govern the empire," said the boy, "just the same as I look after my horses. What else should I do?
"When I was a little boy and used to live within the points of the compass,
[In Vanity Fair.]
my eyes got dim of sight. An old man advised me to mount the chariot of the sun
[I.e. of Intelligence.]
and visit the wilds of Hsiang-ch'êng. My sight is now much better, and I continue to dwell without the points of the compass. I should govern the empire in just the same way. What else should I do?"
"Of course," said the Yellow Emperor, "government is not your trade. Still I should be glad to hear what you would do."
The boy declined to answer, but on being again urged, cried out, "What difference is there between governing the empire and looking after horses? See that no harm comes to the horses, that is all!"
Thereupon the Emperor prostrated himself before the boy; and addressing him as Divine Teacher, took his leave.
[Divine Teacher means "inspired by God." The term used is that employed in modern times for the head or Pope of debased Taoism, often wrongly rendered as the "Master of Heaven."]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, equality or morality is one of crucial paths to ensure 'no harm comes to the horses' or effective 'management'.
Confucianism emphasizes fulfilling 'Tao' to pursue perfection, while Taoism is more focused on restoring things to their original nature by fulfilling 'Tao.'
May I ask for your advice on how to learn math, or an example of effective math learning?
Because my math skills are quite weak.
I failed five semesters of math in high school.
It was only when I started memorizing and practicing all the examples my math teacher taught that I saw improvement.
Eventually, I achieved a score of 96 on the final college entrance exam in the sixth semester. Unfortunately, this pattern seems to repeat in my life.
I'm concerned that my poor performance in math might lead me down the wrong path in 'this process'?
I have read Chuang Tz? a long time ago, and have an outsider's understanding of Tao. I think morality as understood in the West is more in tune with Confucius' thought. A matter of duty in a social world. Confucius is more secular, and Taoism more spiritual. Ruling a country is like cooking a small fish (don't over do it.) It's a great government that can take that sort of advice!
Neither of those resonate with me.
What you said is this -
Quoting YiRu Li
This in Western terms generally expresses 1) a human rights perspective and 2) reciprocal altruism.
Yes!
I made a surprising discovery today: It's the first time in my life that I've asked how to learn math! Previously, I was stuck in my old patterns repeatedly.
No wonder when Chuang Zi or other Chinese prophet books teach 'Tao,' they use examples like: the 'Yellow Emperor' seeking knowledge everywhere.
I promptly found many valuable resources on YouTube.
Thank you!
Yes! 2024 Martin Luther Day is a significant day for me! It marks the first time in my life that I asked how to improve my math, and I'll always remember it. It's unbelievable that I used to believe I lacked talent in math when, in reality, I hadn't followed any of the suggestions from YouTube videos on how to learn math.
I'm from Taiwan and have been living in Seattle for 10 years. Taiwan's Society and K12 education combines 50% authentic Chinese civilization with 50% Western education. In college, it's 100% Western education.
I appreciate your response:
Quoting tim wood
I believe we can use this approach to analyze the questions that the Chinese asked throughout history and the corresponding results.
*From 5000 years ago to before the colonial period*
China was often relatively free and could maintain a level of 'free self-governed' comparable to that of a U.S. county. About 2,000 years ago, during the reign of the first Emperor Qin Shi Huang, there was a brief period of violent control, similar to what the Communist Party did in Russia and China. He burned all books from 3,000 B.C. until his time to suppress dissent.
*During the colonial period*
Chinese people felt that the emperor system was flawed and questioned which new system to choose: Democracy, constitutional monarchy, or communism? In 1911, Democracy emerged victorious.
*In World War II*
the Chinese faced the choice again: Democracy or Communism? Mao was considered a better leader than Chiang Kai-shek during this period, and in 1949, Communism emerged as the winner.
*Now*
people in mainland China are questioning: Is Democracy better than Communism? Discussing this with friends from mainland China can lead to endless debates about the efficiency of big government, followed by criticisms of the perceived failures of U.S. or Taiwan democracy.
People in mainland China must first ask: 'How can we implement democracy?', Similar to the question Our founding father 'Sun Yat-sen' asked, before the successful establishment of democracy in China.
Our founding father mentioned that European democracy arose from high-pressure control and persecution, pushing people to pursue freedom. Chinese history, however, has been characterized by periods of freedom and good treatment over 5,000 years, making the pursuit of freedom less pronounced.
Can we encourage people in mainland China to ask: 'How can we implement democracy'?
What can we learn from America and Europe?
My solution is to return to authentic Chinese civilization. The equality at the spirit level taught by ChuangZi and Jesus can inspire equality at the law level, which manifests as democracy or possibly a superior system.
People in mainland China have a deep appreciation for authentic Chinese civilization. During the Cultural Revolution, the CCP didn't teach it in schools, but now they do. Chinese medicine, with Laozi, Chuang Zi, and i-Ching, is widely used in China and Taiwan. In times of darkness like the CCP or Covid, people turn even more to Chinese medicine and the teachings of Laozi, Chuang Zi, and i-Ching.
If we can find a way to combine this with Western philosophy, it could be even better. People in mainland China are eager to learn about Western culture, and such integration could be also beneficial for our health."
:up:
We can comprehend Chinese through the visual representation of words.
In this image, 'Tao' is depicted as a thoughtful head at a crossroad, with a person walking on the path.
The essence of 'Tao' aligns with the sentiment, 'Carefully consider the path for your feet, and all your ways will be established.' (Proverbs 4:26)
:chin:
Confucius said, 'Were a man without benevolence, what would be the rites intended for? If without benevolence, what would the music be used for?' (The Analects, Ba Yi, 3)
Confucius emphasizes the importance of genuine hearts.
Morality, according to him, is the inherent expression of genuine hearts.
Without genuine hearts, morality becomes hypocritical.
I'm uncertain if 'stipulated' moral guidelines inherently possess genuine hearts."?
Quoting YiRu Li
This is a stipulation:-
Quoting YiRu Li
And one I agree with. When I say 'stipulation' I mean such a defining or contextualising statement. So, I assume Confucius had a genuine heart when he said this, but it is the person who acts or speaks that does so wholeheartedly or hypocritically - for example, one can honour one's parents genuinely, or one can pretend to honour them to gain some favour from them. Statements themselves have no heart, but are mere rocks in the stream.
Thank you very much for that little lesson in written Chinese; I know nothing of it, but it is a very different system, and I strongly suspect that it results in a slightly different way of thinking, that is - I'm guessing - more immediate and holistic.
Authentic Chinese civilization fosters 'Tao'.
However, numerous foreigners have competed and occupied the land of China.
Over time, these foreigners may integrate into Chinese society, embracing authentic Chinese civilization. Yet, they might also introduce foreign cultures that do not align with the essence of 'Tao,' such as foot binding or the influence of the Chinese Communist Party.
In Taiwan's K12 education, it is crucial to learn how to distinguish between foreign culture and authentic Chinese civilization. This skill proves valuable when studying history and archaeology. Additionally, I aim to find an effective method for learning Western thinking?
Tao: 'Carefully consider the path for your feet, and all your ways will be established.' (Proverbs 4:26)
I think its possible this train is why Confucius hasn't hit the Aurelius or even Sun Tzu level of modern popularity.
This is a bit circular and doesn't inform anyone of how to get to an 'ought'.
Quoting unenlightened
Quoting AmadeusD
:up:
History can provide a clearer understanding of Confucius and Zhuangzi. The Chinese actually abandoned the exclusive pursuit of Confucius' moral system 2,500 years ago. Instead, they incorporated Laozi and Zhuangzi's thinking, either alongside morals or at times exclusively.
China has a history of university education and a moral system dating back 5,000 years. Confucius played a pivotal role as the teacher in this university education and moral system. However, around 700 B.C., the introduction of iron in China led to severe wealth inequality and 500 years of warfare between states. The old moral system, which had been in place from B.C. 3000 to B.C. 700, collapsed. People lost faith in the ability to maintain genuine hearts and uphold morality within the old system favored by Confucius. During the wartime period, 100 philosophy schools emerged and competed amid the prevailing inequality. In B.C. 221, Legalism emerged victorious, putting an end to the era of war. However, the extreme legal system resulted in the Emperor burning all Chinese books spanning 3,000 years.
With the legal system proving inadequate, the Chinese turned to the philosophies of Laozi and Zhuangzi to address the issue of inequality, achieving positive results. Despite this, Confucius' moral system continued to be taught for 5,000 years until the present day in schools in Taiwan and China. However, 2,500 years ago, people recognized that it could not stand alone. Chinese society predominantly relies on Laozi and Zhuangzi to directly address inequality of minds and support moral values.
Did Westerners experience a similar history?
-> Technology introduces inequality to society (Iron, Colony, Industrial Revolution)
-> Moral system collapse (War Time)
-> Extreme legal systems that end war but cause severe destruction (Communist Party, Cultural Revolution)
-> Attempts to use legal means to maintain order (UN, Universal Declaration of Human Rights)
-> But still faces challenges?
:up:
It holds true when considering any social or natural science while understanding Zhuangzi.
'Tao' is Science. Laozi and Zhuangzi were tools for ancient scientists to unravel the mysteries of Science.
This philosophy is implemented in various aspects of Chinese culture, including Chinese medicine, the political system, and personal careers such as those of scientists, doctors, or architects.
It also aids in examining which sciences to prioritize.
e.g.
My doctor friend always tells me, 'To become famous, many doctors prefer to research fatal diseases rather than small diseases.' However, to create a more equitable society, the Taiwanese government may decide to promote more research and growth in herbs that can treat small diseases. Although this may not bring as much fame as researching more fatal diseases, it can help a larger number of people by preventing major diseases. Additionally, it can provide more job opportunities for those in need."
Many Westerners don't romanticize their history with mythology like other cultures do - unless they are right-wing. The left seems to focus on critiques and self-loathing.
Quoting YiRu Li
No. Inequality is always there. Technology just shows up the fault lines.
Quoting YiRu Li
I think you mean authoritarian political systems, not extreme legal systems.
Quoting YiRu Li
Tao is not a science as I understand it. It might be used to inform science, but it is more like a philosophical or spiritual system.
I have two translations of the Tao Te Ching, but I'm afraid as a modern, secular westerner it just seems like abstract, poetic and circuitous musings of no particular use to me. I am not very interested in metaphorical language and paradoxes.
I have also known several Chinese people over the years who claim that Chinese medicine is unreliable and if they are really sick they will not use it. I would need to see studies on this subject before committing to a view. I have known several people to use Chinese medicine to treat various illnesses. It generally did not work, but in one or two cases it seemed to help. I personally would not use it, but its not a part of my culture. I also would not use naturopathy or faith healing.
This is such a good encapsulation of why politicking sucks so much. Nice.
Quoting Tom Storm
I live right next a School of Chinese Medicine and three people i know have gone, and left, because it was (educationally) prescriptive and didn't really regard 'evidence' as important. Unsure whether that relates generally, but is my experience.
Are you sure Naturopathy is the thing you'd take issue with? Its a fairly humble practice, and seems to work where it works One of the above 'people' eventually completed a naturopathy degree (Bachelor of Natural Medicine) - Homeopathy, on teh other hand.. yeesh.
Quoting Tom Storm
It is a religion, borne out of the Tao Te Ching. It reads similarly to Confucius in a lot of places, imo. Very much philosophical and not empirical.
Quoting AmadeusD
Correct!
Chinese medicine is preventive medicine and primarily addresses minor ailments.
If we feel unwell and Western doctors assert that we are not sick after various examinations, then it's time to consider Chinese medicine.
One of the most renowned figures in the history of Chinese medicine is Bian Que, and his story emphasizes how Chinese medicine focuses on treating minor ailments:
One famous legend tells of how once when Bian Que was in the State of Cai, he saw the lord of the state at the time and told him that he had a disease, which Bian Que claimed was only in his skin. The lord brushed this aside as at that time he felt no symptoms, and told his attendants that Bian Que was just trying to profit from the fears of others. Bian Que is said to have visited the lord many times thereafter, telling him each time how this sickness was becoming progressively worse, each time spreading into more of his body, from his skin to his blood and to his organs. The last time Bian Que went to see the lord, he looked in from afar, and rushed out of the palace. When an attendant of the lord asked him why he had done this, he replied that the disease was in the marrow and was incurable. The lord was said to have died soon after.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bian_Que
Cool! He is indeed an amazing doctor. He has the ability to halt cancer.
His methods appears to approximate Ayurvedic systems of pulse diagnosis.
I can't take these sorts of things very seriously, other than as curiosities of culture.
It is indeed educational material on how to utilize Chinese medicine, emphasizing the importance of not waiting to see a doctor until it's too late.
Chinese medicine is about philosophy, Qigong, acupuncture (healing power from our own body), and herbs (healing power from nature. e.g. forest).
It is a preventive medicine.
It thinks small sickness will accumulate to big sickness, then big sickness will lead to death.
Chinese medicine is very promised to prevent and treat small sicknesses.
But not that focus on treating big sickness as western medicine.
(Im afraid the philosophy behind is: Life<->Death is the same.
It actually doesnt suggest taking too much extra effort to pursue life.
It should go with nature, e.g. healthy lifestyles.)
Yes, prioritize Spirit, Mind, and Body health. It effectively addresses long COVID, the immune system, the autonomic nervous system, and the endocrine system for me.
Feel free to fee free. But i think it's a little irresponsible to pretend taht Chinese Medicine is anything remotely approaching effective with regard to the endocrine system, ANS or COVID. My 2 C worth :)
Yes, it's a knowledge that everyone learns in Taiwan and China to prevent diseases. If it doesn't sound like a medical practice to you
It might be worth not appealing to the fact that something exists, as evidence that it fulfills a certain function.
Chinese Medicine is not a medical practice. It is a spiritual practice. And there's nothing wrong with spiritual practice. It is only wrong when presented as a medical practice. And i believe that is the case with Chinese Medicine.
Yes, when dealing with a disease, people in Taiwan and China often compare situations to determine whether Western medicine or Chinese medicine is more effective. Every individual uses both types of medicine, each having its own distinct theory.
I've had a cousin who saw acupuncture in a favorable, presumably productive light. What about chiropractic? People say that's "not a real science/medicine". Yet people swear by it.
Just because we can't "see" something or correlate how and why something works doesn't automatically mean it doesn't. That's the life story of science and all innovation itself. We didn't know, then we did. Surely you don't suggest humanity has discovered all that is to be discovered about the human body, life, and the universe itself? We haven't even explored 5% of the world's oceans, which is nearly 75% of the entire world itself! Come now. Be humbled and ready to learn. Surely there's more to.. no? :chin:
Edit: In addition to the fact human medical experiments are generally frowned upon. It's an entirely (at least one would hope) locked up industry in the modern age.
:up:
I do think a Chinese medicine doctor is like a 'teacher,' guiding us on how to lead a healthy life for our spirit, mind, and body.
However, in ancient times, herbs were not part of big commercial enterprises. I'm cautious about consuming commercially produced herbs. I prefer growing my own herbs, and they prove effective.
Modern commercial practices indeed compromise the quality of Chinese medicine. If this is the point you want to convey?
Healing should come from our relationship with nature. However, the commercial style actually obstructs that connection with nature.
It shouldn't be viewed as a modern 'medical practice'. Instead, it should be embraced as a lifestyle philosophy to learn.
No, I dont suggest that, but I am more than happy to suggest that a spiritual system around 5000 years old with no significant update is probably bunk.
Chiropractic was literally instantiated by a liar, DD Palmer. The placebo effect is strong - as is people lying about receiving benefits from treatments they would be embarrassed to admit were useless.
Fwiw my brother is chiropractor and admits readily that theres close to zero medical benefit beyond general pressure release of joint clicking (ie bursting synovial bubbles)
People also swear by blessing a cup of dogs blood in the shadow of a virgin or whatver.
I hope youre being ironic lol
I can't say I've met one. Are you sure these people are not made of straw?
Quoting YiRu Li
I am most interested in comparisons of this sort between our cultures. New technology is always going to be disruptive, and early adopters will tend to be winners and late adopters losers economically.
I don't have a formula for moral collapse; but the West is currently suffering it. Certainly the disruption of new technology is a part of it, as stability of peoples lives is lost, but there is much deeper stuff there as well.
I think part of the cause in the West currently is the result of an ongoing conflict between science and religion whereby the success of science in material knowledge has been so overwhelming that social, political, and moral considerations, and especially any spiritual or religious concerns have been dismissed as fantasy, and nonsense. The roots are in the enlightenment, but the modern attitude is well exemplified by this insightful book about how to exploit the information age and the collapse of democracy that is predicted to happen therefrom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sovereign_Individual
This is not a reading recommendation from me, except as one might seek to understand the thinking of one's enemy or any antisocial person.
From the loss of any foundation for a moral consensus comes the need for law, and rules and authority and punishment, which you have from Lao Tsu of course.
[quote=Tao Te Ching 38.]When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone.
When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done.
When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds,
He rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order.
Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is kindness.
When kindness is lost, there is justice.
When justice is lost, there ritual.
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.[/quote]
Now something less clear, but close to this can be found in Christianity, but these things are not amenable to measurement, experiment, or demonstration, by science, and therefore they are ignored and dismissed by many in this culture. An attitude which is illustrated by the some of the responses you are getting to your comments on Chinese Traditional medicine. To the modern Western mind, tradition is the enemy to be overcome by modernity.
There is the placebo effect, which science does recognize.
I think chiropractic helps people by rubbing their backs and making it hurt less, but the "science" of it in that it somehow actually changes the skeletal structures or that it corrects malalignments, that's all horseshit and should be discarded.
I'm not willing to just say all medical treatment is the same and that we should allow all forms to be considered for fear we'll offend or be hypocritical. It's prefectly ok to say accupuncture is nonsense if it fails to show it works based upon scientific testing. And it is nonsense as a treatment for illness. It doesn't work. If it's some sort of pseudo-religious or sacred cultural practice, I have no objection to it, and I'll step back in reverence when its practioners use it, but I'm not going to suggest whatever illness suffered from has been addressed when it's used.
Quoting unenlightened
I do agree that there is a spiritual crisis in our material society, so much so that most don't even know that their depressed state is caused by a lack of spirituality because they never were aware that even existed to be missing. The worst way to fix that is to proselytize, so they must left to be to find their way, which I actually think they will. Where I disagree with you though fairly profoundly is that I have no fear that religion will be over-run and that secular society will snuff it out. I don't believe that because I absolutely am as devout a theist as there might be, which means it's an impossibility that wrongness prevails. And I keep this vague enough because I know you have no desire to hear the tenants of my faith, but I just point out the that crisis you feel is from a lack of your own faith. I'm sure though that you find my optimism absurd, but your response is exactly as it ought to be, as is everything.
While I can't say I'm familiar with any scientific research or lack thereof involving chiropractic, and generally rank your general knowledge as on par if not better, the idea, as I was sold by my former chiropractor, that over time adjustments, well, adjust, seems to be plausible.
Men grow old and often develop Dowager's Hump, or old man's hunch, after a time in life. Just as teeth can be straightened or made crooked, certainly can other bones such as the spine or neck? I had a bit of a near-hunch and was prescribed (or rather sold) a product known as a Denneroll, basically a solid pillow you place at the base of your neck for 20 minutes a day that prevents/treats/corrects what I described. I have to say I basically saw it work. Now if this is mere postural exercise, similar to laying flat on the floor and not related to chiropractic in the least, well, that's another matter. The average person will find the two related if not identical.
Quoting Hanover
Again while I'd trust your general knowledge of most subjects over my own, the logic and claims are far from unsound. When your body is cut or pricked, it responds and releases chemicals. To quote John Hopkin's Medicine:
"Acupuncture points are believed to stimulate the central nervous system. This, in turn, releases chemicals into the muscles, spinal cord, and brain. These biochemical changes may stimulate the body's natural healing abilities and promote physical and emotional well-being."
Sure, it's not a game of Operation where you touch one spot and all of a sudden your lifelong migraines instantly vanish all the time, every time. Simply the idea, it doesn't hurt and for some people, claims to help or otherwise provide some tangible, medical benefit.
Those are just my thoughts on your comment, thoughts which are held by many, mind you.
The history of chiropractic dates back to a man named Palmer who opined that all illness (as in all, from back pain, to sinus infections, to liver disease and so on) was caused by the inability of the life force to find its way down the spinal column due to an improperly aligned spine. He charted out what body parts were affected by misalignments at each level, so perhaps misalignment of the lower lumbar spine might cause you abdominal pain wheras the mid spine might cause you heart disease. The solution was to align your spine, which meant popping your back and supposedly bringing it into alignment, where you could then be cured of your illness.
Over time, most (but not all) chiropractors abandoned to the idea that their adjustment cured various problems with the organs, but they limited their practice to curing spinal pain, although many still claim that periodic adjustments are necessary for maintaining one's general health. Of course, these "adjustments" don't actually change the alignment of the spine, which is easy enough to observe on radiological studies, which is a good thing, because it you were able to manipulate someone's spine so easily, they'd be paralyzed.
The best you can say they do is treat muscular pain and their efforts are glorified massages. Some chiropractors have stopped cracking backs as they're known to do because that poses some liability risks in the event they hurt the patient. That has caused most to turn to a small spring device that they pop lightly on the patients spine and they claim that aligns the spine. Those devices are particularly stupid, but it is part of the practice. In fact, more than 50% of chiropractors now use that method.
https://www.advancedchiropracticgroup.com/services---techniques/activator-technique/activator-technique-faqs-.html#:~:text=The%20Activator%20Technique%20of%20chiropractic,chiropractors%20use%20the%20Activator%20Method.
Quoting Outlander
That statement does not indicate that accupuncture works. It recites what the belief is, but makes no reference to any study.
The New England Journal of Medicine reports the results of a double-blind study on the efficacy of accupuncture for osteoarthritic pain, finding
"Forty patients, randomly assigned to an experimental and a control group, participated in a double-blind study to assess the effectiveness of acupuncture in reducing chronic pain associated with osteoarthritis. The experimental group received treatment at standard acupuncture points, and the control group at placebo points. Analysis before and after treatment showed a significant (P < 0.05) improvement in tenderness and subjective report of pain in both groups as evaluated by two independent observers and in activity by one observer. Comparison of responses to treatment between the two groups showed no significant( > 0.05) difference.
Thus, both experimental and control groups showed a reduction in pain after the treatments. These results may reflect the natural course of illness, and various attitudinal and social factors. (N Engl J Med 293:375378, 1975)" https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM197508212930803
You can do a full review of the literature, but you'll find no supporting evidence for accupuncture for the relief of pain. If you did, then your neighborhood family doctor would be performing it, or at least they should be. If it worked and they didn't do it, then it would build an argument that medical practices are just social voodoos dependent upon cultural norms and not actually empirically based.
The reason this matters is because healthcare is a mulit-billion dollar industry and all sorts of people want to get their hands on some of this money. That has resulted in the "alternative healthcare" industry to emerge where they build upon a narrative that there are all sorts of simple solutions to problems and they flood the market with non-scientific testimonials to support their claims. This is not to say that true medical providers don't cheat, rob, and steal, but they at least have a valid methodology that works if they choose to use it. Alternative medicine does not have a valid methodology, and for that, it's not a valid enterprise.
Quoting AmadeusD
Why don't you agree? I believe it's a translation issue. After hearing your perspective on the definition of 'Medical Practice,' I think a more accurate translation would be 'Chinese medical philosophy' or 'Chinese healthy lifestyle.'
Western medicine emphasizes that healthy food, exercise, and emotional well-being are key to our health. Chinese medical philosophy supports this idea, placing a stronger emphasis on pinpointing the key factors contributing to illnesses. While general attention to food, exercise, and emotional control is beneficial, it may not address specific organs or illnesses.
- Healthy food -> herbs.
- Exercise -> Qigong and Acupuncture.
- Emotion -> the philosophy of equality.
'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' specifically teaches these everyday life practices in relation to our health, following the 20-80 principle.
Western medical practice theory contradicts Chinese medical philosophy, as the latter does not advocate for unnecessary and excessive control. There is a fundamental disagreement with side effects and intensive control of small areas. Chinese medical philosophy views spirit, mind, and body as interconnected, treating them as a holistic entity.
A Chinese doctor is seen as a teacher, guiding individuals towards changes in spirit, mind, and body. In contrast, Western doctors primarily focus on treatment without insisting on lifestyle changes. When consulting a Chinese doctor, people expect guidance and transformations in spirit, mind, and body. Therefore, Chinese medical philosophy cannot be accurately translated as 'Medical Practice' in Western thinking. It entails different concepts and expectations.
'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine,' mentioned in our OP, is a prophetic book with a writing style similar to Laozi, Zhuangzi, and the Bible. Prophetical works require a master to teach the disciple for proper understanding.
I find it puzzling that when people hear about 'Medicine,' they automatically associate it with 'Western Science' and demand scientific proof. Why can't it be considered a 'Philosophy' classic book, similar to Plato's Dialogues, inspiring new modern thinking?
I've heard that a few hundred years ago, science was part of philosophy in Europe. Where is the Western medical philosophy book?
Maybe give it a try and see for yourself.
This Chinese doctor teaches how to protect our eyes using Chinese Medicine methods.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCzMEAOYfPs
At the 12:18 mark of the video, he demonstrates 'Eye care 5 points reverse vision,' teaching how to self-massage the acupuncture points around our eyes.
Give it a try! It's free!
He has many videos covering various small and big illnesses, all with English subtitles."
So instead of relying upon a double blind study with multiple participants, you want me to just give it a try and see if it's true or not?
Like I said, I have no objection to protecting your cultural rituals and holding them in proper regard (as I, no doubt, have my own), but I'm not going to pretend your medical claims are valid just to be accomodating.
Just sharing some healthy practices in the hope of benefiting others.
I don't aim to prove whether it's true or not;
Chinese medicine is simply an exercise, food, or emotion therapy for me.
Do we need scientific proof of our mother nature? :chin:
The proper justification for a scientific claim is that the methodology used is consistent with the scientific method. I don't know how more clear to say that.
But, if you see Chinese medicine as a cultural or religious practice, like I said, I'll stand back and respect your prayer.
Part of my respect cannot be to suggest that your practices are scientifically valid or that they should be included in a typical doctor's visit, though.
I have not defined medical practice.
Quoting Hanover
Exactly.
Quoting Hanover
Quoting Tom Storm
Certainly! It is essential to conduct a background check on any unfamiliar culture.
Here are the background check materials I can provide.
Additionally, I believe this history is valuable when analyzing the power inequality between Religion and Science.
I am curious about how to understand 'Spirit' in a purely philosophical way?
1) **Sacrifice**
Heaven or 'Tao' is the Chinese name for God in the Bible. We find 'Tao' everywhere in all Chinese Classic books, encompassing all of nature and social science. We can examine all Chinese classics alongside the Bible to 1) Check if every word aligns with the Bible and 2) facilitate a better understanding of both.
Chinese civilization was initiated by the Bible's God from the 'Yellow Emperor' after the Tower of Babel. The Chinese emperor was the only one allowed to sacrifice to the Bible's God once a year on the Solstice day for 5,000 years. This ritual ceased when China became a democracy in 1911. The general public's worship was entirely prohibited for 5,000 years. Authentic Chinese civilization lacks a religious concept or word.
The 'Temple of Heaven' served as the sacrificial place from 1420. Before 1420, for about 4,500 years, the Emperor would find a natural mound each year to conduct the sacrifice, similar to Abraham's way of sacrificing outside.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Heaven
2) **Church Missionary**
Catholic missionaries researched authentic Chinese civilization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figurism
Protestant missionaries researched iChing, LaoZi, and ZhuangZi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wilhelm_(sinologist)
[Matthew 10.1] Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them the authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
The Church of the East implemented the church in a master-disciple style by Jesus. I speculate that Jesus' medical knowledge was brought by the Church of the East to China. Many Church of the East missionaries were renowned doctors. In the last paragraph of the 'Xi'an Stele,' we see that 'healing' was the primary method for them to carry out mission work. 'The naked came and were clothed; the sick were attended to and restored; the dead were buried in repose.'
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Nestorian_Monument:_An_Ancient_Record_of_Christianity_in_China/Translation_of_the_Nestorian_Inscription
3) **Chinese Official Astronomy History of Jesus' Birth & Death**
The editor of 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' is the best astrologist at Jesus' birth time. He was very likely one of the wise men who visited baby Jesus.
*The official Chinese astronomy history of Jesus' birth:*
In February of the second year, the comet appeared for more than seventy days. It is said: "The comet is the reason why the comet removes the old and establishes the new. The morning glory is the starting point of the sun, moon, and five stars. It is the element of counting and the beginning of the three uprights. When the comet comes out, it is the sign of change. If it comes out for a long time, it is a big thing." In the sixth month of the year, Xia Heliang and others suggested that the name of the Yuan Dynasty should be changed and the engraving should be added. The imperial edict changed the second year of Jianping to the first year of Taichu Yuanjiang, and the title was Chen Sheng, Liu Taiping, Emperor, and the inscription was marked as one hundred and twenty. On Dingsi in the eighth month, Xi returned and eliminated him. He Liang and his party were all executed and exiled. Later, Wang Mang usurped the country.
*The official Chinese astronomy history of Jesus' death:*
In the fourth month of the summer, on the day Renwu, an imperial edict was issued, stating: "Due to errors in the yin and yang, there have been eclipses of the sun and moon. If the people have made mistakes, let them be attributed to me alone. A general amnesty is granted to all under heaven."
4) **Foreign Religions**
All religions in China are considered foreign religions.
Taoism and Buddhism were approved as legal in the 1st century.
The Church of the East, Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, and Islam were approved in the 7th century. Greek pagan is consistently illegal. However, during the 2nd - 6th century, foreigners killed 90% of the Chinese and occupied China. Greek pagan spread everywhere through foreigners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
The Chinese tried to remove the temples and statues for 1,000 years but still failed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Buddhist_Persecutions_in_China
The Church of the East opened sects in Buddhism and Taoism.
It gained 100% market share and integrated all foreign religions, except Islam, in the 10th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Land_Buddhism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanzhen_School
All foreign religions need to follow Chinese civilization's rule of no general public worship, and no one can make a living solely on religion. Even a Buddhist monk needs to find a job other than religion, such as farming.
The no general public worship rule is robust and makes all foreign religions feel like a philosophy class in the university until today.
5) **Jewish Dynasty**
At least 6 dynasties are highly related to Jews. Either Jews got hired as prime ministers or diplomats, or the Emperor himself is a Jew.
There is such a lot to understand here that is very unfamiliar to Westerners. But this one phrase stands out as explaining much about what you have been saying that others have not understood. In the West there is a conflict between science and religion because people have fought over which religion is true, and who is in charge of what a religion says. So one cannot, or people do not, take the best of what Buddha says, and what Jesus says, and what Mohammed says and what Lao Tsu says and and put it together with what physicists and astronomers say. No, one must be right, and all the others wrong and false and evil.
Which must make the West look rather foolish to you.
Which is exactly why it is not a medical practice. It's closer to a soft version of Shamanism. Which i have no issue with, but it should probably be delineated correctly, rather than pretend to medical effectiveness in teh same way as say cardiology does/can.
Quoting YiRu Li
This is, to my mind, an extreme red flag. Prophecy as a part of medicine is ... let's say not got a good history.
Quoting YiRu Li
It can. But then it can't be considered a medical book. Medico-religious perhaps? In the same vein as Shamanism. No issues - But again, the pretense that you're in the same arena as Western medicine beggars belief to my mind.
Quoting YiRu Li
Why do you want one?
Quoting Hanover
:ok:
FTR, I have consulted Chinese medical practioners a fair bit. I went through about eight years of being entirely ensconsed in a new-agey, "traditional" mindset that had my thinking pulse diagnosis was better than a thermometer. My experience confirms my conceptual understanding that it is a placebo-based psychological practice with some efficacy around stress and self-understanding but has next-to-no medical efficacy beyond what has been developed along side Western concepts (such as diet and exercise - minus the Qi concept. As metaphor, perhaps).
Quoting Tom Storm
I think the comment may have been aimed at me - but im unsure i did either lol.
Overall, the history is really interesting and as a 'practice' as it were, Chinese medicine is a cool practice and generally characterized by social cohesion of inter-personal understanding.
But this seems, as with most religions, to entirely fail if one is not an adherent. When something begins to fail in absence of a belief, I tend to get off the train.
Quoting AmadeusD
Nice. Did you mean next to no ?
100%. I used to be all in on 'telepathine' (its a can of worms) and various other really discreet modes of supernatural activity. I used to be 100% convinced you can think your way out of a broken arm. I took crystals seriously, at least as conduits, if not tools in themselves. Its attractive, and the less you're incline to seek 'the truth' the easier it is to seek 'the most fun' stuff and convince yourself otherwise.
Quoting Tom Storm
Yes, will go edit that LOL thanks
Quoting 180 Proof
I find it to be 'intelligent'! Adam and Eve ate the apple, marking The Beginning of Sin. Does intelligence cause inequality?
Authentic Chinese civilization is a reformation based on the West from 5,000 years ago. It cannot be understood in isolation. For example, I wasn't aware that Chinese worship was banned 5,000 years ago until I learned about Western worship.
I also feel that the solstice sacrifice ritual is a very powerful symbol. It unequivocally asserts that authentic Chinese civilization doesn't have a distinct religion. Every knee bows to it!
Or, as ChuangZi says, we need to empty ourselves first to deal with inequality.
It's an allegorical or fictional story about obeying god and the consequences of not doing so. Yahweh being a Mafiosa-style, don't-fuck-with me deity. This is a story that has nothing to offer me personally. Me being a crass, contemporary, secular humanist type who is comfortable living in the present era and holding Western worship to be pointless nonsense. :wink:
Have you heard the one about Schrodinger's cat? Ridiculous! how anyone can be scientist after that is beyond me.
I would say it is not that intelligence causes inequality, because even in the Garden of Eden everything had to eat something, but inequality becomes an issue for intelligent beings.
There is some subtlety to the story: they eat of the tree of knowledge, and the first thing that happens is "they saw that they were naked, and were ashamed." They didn't need God to be pointing and laughing at their genitals. We know that animals can have memory and learn, and form complex social relations in hierarchies, and so on. And the story pinpoints a crucial difference that only happens in humans that scientists have still not quite seen the importance of, because they want to emphasise language and reason, which are in fact common to many species.
Part of learning is to replay events in the mind - of a hunt for example, and see where things went wrong and how to perform better. Now at a certain level of complexity of such mental re-enactments, one has to imagine, not only oneself and others acting out the scene, but also to imagine their thoughts and feelings and one's own thoughts and feelings. And in this way one starts to have an idea of how one appears to another. I see you looking at my sex, and I imagine what you are thinking. And that's when inequality starts to become an issue, and one that perhaps 'ought to be other than it is'. That is to say, humans uniquely model their own minds and the minds of others in their imagination, and it is this mindfulness of mindedness that takes us out of the natural world so that we live in our own imagination of the imagination of others, more fully than we do in the real world. And that is why our place in society, our status in the minds of others is the most important thing about us, and inequality is the most vital issue.
Absolutely ridiculous! Science is clearly nonsense and more fool you for even suggesting it might be useful.
Quoting Hanover
Quoting Tom Storm
Quoting unenlightened
Or, can I draw the conclusion that the inequality issue stems from 'Body & Mind'?
We need to address it at the 'Spirit' level ?
Quoting AmadeusD
:up:
Good question!
I believe the medical philosophy book in the West is 'the Bible'.
'The Bible' is also studied alongside 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' from the 7th century until today.
This is because authentic Chinese civilization doesn't have a religious concept or word.
We use 'the Bible' and 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' in a purely tool book way.
Before I explain how to view them as tools, in a completely non-religious way, we need to understand how to think of 'Spirit' in a purely philosophical way.
The following is a summary from ZhuangZi to explain 'how to feel Spirit in us'. Please check if it makes sense. Afterward, I will explain how to use prophet books as 'Citation' or 'Search Engine' , to address inequality issues at the 'Spirit' level (e.g., Religion <-> Science inequality).
---------------------------------------------------------------
*In general, we often only notice the 'Body' and 'Mind'.
We need to lower the activity of the body and mind to feel the spirit. For example, lower desires from body and mind.
Carl Jung (psychiatrist): My patients are all physically and mentally healthy but not happy. If we want to be happy, we can't only depend on the body and mind. We need the spirit.
*How can we feel that we have Spirit? From two perspectives:
1) Inner Self
We might do everything to satisfy others' criteria, but we don't feel happy ourselves. How can we make ourselves feel content, too?
The body will die. The mind will lose function (e.g., Alzheimer's disease). What else can we have after the body or mind function dies? Body and mind are weak.
2) Self-transcendence
We feel others' pain. Cry for sad things in movies. But we're not suffering; why do we feel sad for others? Because our 'self' connects with others' 'self,' called 'the greater self'.
"If every time we do things for our 'self', we add decoration to our 'self', then add more distance from others. If we think for others, we will get rid of the decoration of our 'self."
For example, not being selfish, being nice to strangers -> Spirit.
Body, Mind -> Self
Spirit -> Self-transcendence
If we can lower each individual's 'Self' but have more 'Self-transcendence,' then this world will be more 'a community of shared future'.
-------------------------------------
* 'The Attitude to Hear' practice:
"You hear not with the ears but with the mind; not with the mind but with your soul."
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Chuang_Tz%C5%AD_(Giles)/Chapter_4 [43]
Stop hearing by ear -> Stop 'Body' activity
Stop hearing by mind -> Stop 'Mind' activity (Mind is used to understand things).
Only use 'Spirit/Breath' to hear.
Practice 'The attitude to Hear' in an inequality case in our daily life (e.g., God in a Mafiosa-style).
See what we'll experience when we stop understanding things by body and mind?
Quoting Hanover
Quoting Tom Storm
Quoting unenlightened
Quoting AmadeusD
One citation example for the prophet books.
**Case Study 1: Lady A's Glaucoma**
Lady A developed glaucoma between the ages of 15-18, unable to cope with the persistent financial conflicts between her parents and the pressure of academic studies. This stress contributed to high eye pressure. Despite multiple visits to Western medicine doctors before her glaucoma diagnosis, they couldn't offer advice to prevent its development. After confirming glaucoma, Western medicine's sole solution was using eye drops to alleviate eye pressure. However, these proved ineffective during periods of stress, poor diet, lack of exercise, and aging.
[Citation]*This citation can be from any prophet book, e.g., Buddha as the great physician.
-> 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine': "When the liver is harmonious, the eyes can distinguish the five colors."
-> Herbs for the liver are 'Chamomile' or 'Chrysanthemum'.
-> Mapping to the Bible 'Flowers of the Field'.
-> [Matthew 6:28] And why do you worry about clothes? Look at the wildflowers in the field. See how they grow. They dont work or make clothes for themselves." [James 1:10-11] "And the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass he will pass away. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits."
-> Rich <-> Poor Inequality
* Throughout Lady A's life, her pursuit of the best schools, profession, and company caused high eye pressure as she neglected her inner self.
**Case Study 2: Sir B's Gout**
Sir B developed gout at age 25 after a year of extreme stress and daily sugar consumption following his dismissal from his first job. The terrible situation lasted about a year until he felt intense pain in his feet one day, leading to a confirmed diagnosis of gout. Depression and anxiety from age 12, resulting from his parents' tumultuous relationship and years of bullying starting at age 6, left lasting mental scars. Gout thwarted his dream of becoming a drummer by triggering dystonia, making it challenging to control his feet while playing drums. Medications for gout were sometimes ineffective.
At age 28, Sir B started feeling stroke-like symptoms, though Western medicine doctors deemed him fine. Seeking relief, he turned to marijuana, now believing it's the only solution to his life's agony.
[Citation]
-> 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine': "If the pain comes fast and is strong, we can massage it; if the pain lasts long and is huge, we can release it."
-> Herbs for Gout are 'Job's tear' and 'Cypress seed'.
-> 'Job's tear' mapping to the Bible 'the book of Job'.
-> 'Good <-> Bad' Inequality
-> 'Cypress seed' mapping to the Bible [Isaiah 14:8] "You were an evil king, and now you are finished. Even the pine trees are happy. The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice. They say, 'The king chopped us down, but now the king has fallen, and he will never stand again.'"
-> 'Strong <-> Weak' , 'Domination' Inequality
* Everyday, Sir B feels everything is agony.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In both Lady A and Sir B's cases, 'Mind' issues or a 'Poor Spirit' are the main triggers of their irreversible chronic diseases. Can we treat 'Mind' issues only at the 'Mind' level, e.g., addressing hate? Or do we need to treat it at the "Spirit' level, e.g., loving our enemies?
Though herbs may seem mild, learning healthy practices for Spirit, Mind, and Body from minor ailments is valuable. If a challenging event arises, maintaining a peaceful mind can prevent it from developing into a significant irreversible chronic disease.
[Extension: Spirit, Mind, Body as a Whole; Religion<-> Science Inequality]
Authentic Chinese civilization considers prophet books a comprehensive 'Citation', integral to history, other prophet books, and nature & social science. The Prophet books offer 'Keywords' for understanding ancient civilizations, making it easy to find similar teachings across cultures. In Taiwan and China's K12 schools, 50% of daily learning over 12 years is dedicated to understanding ancient prophet books.
In Taiwan and China, every doctor is trained in both Western and Chinese medicine. Numerous TV shows and YouTube videos daily educate on combining Western & Chinese medicine for various conditions, emphasizing the need for doctors to guide medical therapy use.
Quoting YiRu Li
That may explain the lack of efficacy and acceptance. I have no issue with being a bit of a Western Chauvinist when it comes to medicine.
Quoting AmadeusD
:up:
One citation way is like 'Lego'.
They grouped legos with similar functions in one prophet book.
But on each piece of Lego, it has a link point which can connect to other pieces of Lego in other books.
e.g. 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' only discusses the way to treat disease. But it doesn't have herb or spiritual teaching in detail. It just provides the 'keyword', so it can freely link to any local herb books and local prophet books.
It makes sense from a Computer science view. Maybe the Law field also has a similar concept?
An easier way: Listening to the doctor on YouTube how they explain the spirit and mind issue for each disease. e.g. anger, high blood pressure. Then link it to the prophet books or modern psychology therapy that you are familiar with.
Because Taiwanese people spent lots of time studying ancient prophet books when we were young, it's fun to find out the citation by ourselves. But for easy & correct application, the doctor will explain the Spirit, Mind, Body theory for you.
Using the human body's 'Self-Healing functions' is as easy as using a cell phone.
All the disease and corresponding acupuncture points are all taught in the YouTube videos.
We can self massage and try all the acupuncture points at home.
We can at least experience 1% effect by self massage, compared to doctor's acupuncture service.
If we are sick, we'll feel 'sore or hurt' at the acupuncture points.
Doctor + needle only makes the effect: 1) Stronger, 2) Last longer 3) more accurate points
Is it scientific proof enough if we try all our acupuncture points at home, following the doctor's instruction in the video?
e.g. My friend has a back pain issue. While he massages his acupuncture points, the back pain is immediately released. He feels very sore at the points.
People in Taiwan and China watch doctors on TV & YouTube to use Chinese medicine everyday at home, as a fun hobby with family and friends. e.g. Go to nature together to find herbs, practice massage and Qigong together, or encourage each other with spirit & healing.
This sounds right. And there's nothing wrong with this, and the heavy effect of Placebo on spirituality-derived healing.
Quoting YiRu Li
How would this be a good idea? Looking at unreliable spiritual chat on the Internet and linking it to unreliable historical, poetics masquerading as medicine seems a sure-fire way to preclude yourself from gaining any understanding of the issues you're facing.
Quoting YiRu Li
It doesn't make sense for either point of view imo. This is networking disparate, unreliable poetic passages with unreliable internet (Youtube, even!) 'medical' advice and pretending that the arbitrary connect-the-dots game is a legitimate practice of synthesizing medical information.
Quoting YiRu Li
And not in any medical texts, or anything that can be taken particularly seriously.
Quoting AmadeusD
Quoting AmadeusD
:chin:
Let's assess the principles of Chinese medicine:
1. Equality Philosophy:
- Concept: Self-healing through thought.
- Basis: Inherent design of the human mind.
2. Qigong:
- Concept: Self-healing through exercises and breath.
- Basis: Inherent design of the human body.
3. Acupuncture:
- Concept: Self-healing through acupuncture points.
- Basis: Inherent design of the human body.
4. Herbs:
- Concept: Self-healing through nature.
- Basis: Inherent design of humans and nature.
The question arises: When did humans first acquire this knowledge of self-healing?
What are your thoughts on this matter?
Most of the listings you've put out are just tenets of TCM. They are not 'facts' to be discussed as such.
They also posit an intelligent designer, whcih I can't take seriously at this stage.
Acupuncture is effective because it naturally exists in everyone's body. Each person possesses acupuncture points that contribute to this inherent self-healing function. Doctor-administered needles are not the only option; individuals can also stimulate these points at home by pressing them with their fingers to enhance overall health.
For thousands of years, people in Korea, China, Japan, Vietnam, and Taiwan have been utilizing these acupuncture points to treat various ailments, and this practice continues to thrive today. The only way to refute its efficacy is to examine your body and confirm the absence of inherent acupuncture points.
According to 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine', individuals in various environments require distinct treatments. The practice of using 'Poison' to treat patients indeed originated from the West.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' chapter 12, Methods of Treatment
[b]Yellow Emperor asked, "In the practice of medicine, why is it that treating the same illness in different individuals results in various, yet all effective, treatments?"
Qibo responded, "It is influenced by the geographical features."[/b]
Therefore, in the eastern regions, where heaven and earth originated, known for fish and salt, situated by the sea and water, the people consume fish and favor salty flavors. They are content in their environment, delighting in their food. Fish consumption induces internal heat, and salt promotes blood circulation. As a result, the people in this region have dark skin and loose texture, prone to diseases such as abscesses. The appropriate treatment is stone needling. Hence, the method of treating diseases with stone needles also comes from the east.
In the western regions, the land of gold and jade, characterized by sand and stones, is a place where heaven and earth collect and attract. The people reside on hills, exposed to winds, and the soil and water are robust. They do not wear much clothing, opting for brown mats instead. Their diet is rich, leading to a plump and fatty physique that is resistant to external evils. Diseases in this region typically manifest internally, and the suitable treatment involves poisonous medicines. Thus, the method of treating diseases with poisonous medicines also comes from the west.
In the northern regions, enclosed by heaven and earth, with elevated terrain and cold, freezing winds, people prefer living in open areas and consume dairy. Cold storage results in bloating diseases, and the appropriate treatment is moxibustion. Thus, the method of treating diseases with moxibustion also comes from the north.
In the southern regions, where nature nurtures everything, and yang energy is vigorous, the land is low with weak soil. Mist and dew frequently gather in this area. The people enjoy sour foods and fermented products, resulting in a dense and reddish skin texture. Diseases in this region often involve spasms and numbness, and the suitable treatment involves fine needle acupuncture. Hence, the method of treating diseases with nine needles also comes from the south.
In the central region, with flat terrain and abundant moisture, where heaven and earth give rise to countless beings, people have a diverse diet without much physical exertion. Therefore, diseases in this region often manifest as weakness, reversal, cold, and heat. The appropriate treatment involves methods of guidance, pressure, and foot manipulation. Thus, the method of treating diseases with guidance, pressure, and foot manipulation also originates from the central region.
Therefore, the wise healer combines various methods of treatment, tailoring each to its suitability. The diverse methods of treatment all lead to recovery because understanding the condition of the illness is the key to effective treatment.
This may explain quite a lot. For some reason, you are rejecting all Western medical notions, by the sound of it. I, as noted, have no problem being a Western Chauvinist about medicine. I simply reject that what you've said here is sensible. There is no reliable or effective way for me to assess that particular claim on myself. I imagine it is this technique, coupled with culture-wide pareidolia that has resulted in a total lack of sufficient verification of the practice. As noted elsewhere, Acupuncture doesn't work for almost anything other than mild pain (and, given its prevalence in media, placebo).
Quoting YiRu Li
It is not.
Quoting YiRu Li
This is nonsensical. Obviously, every instance of an illness is unique - but illnesses themselves respond to certain treatment fairly universally. Pretending that each and every instance is somehow metaphysically distinct in such a way that medicine and biomechanics vary is... left wanting, lets say.
Err, the concept of using drugs to treat illnesses is what your 'herbs' are doing, with far higher efficacy and targeting. I have no idea why you've scare quoted 'Poison', particualrly in a place it makes no sense. If you have an axe to grind against Western medicine, this wont go all that well i don't think.
Quoting YiRu Li
Which is not found in any of the pseudo-spiritual quotes you've put forward. The technique you've just described is Western diagnosis.
I do apologise, But i am beginning to lose respect for your position on this.
I tried acupuncture 3 times via well regarded practitioners here (back pain). Useless. I know anecdote isnt proof but no one I know who has tried it for anything serious finds it does not work.
Correct! The way I communicate in Chinese medicine may sound completely different from Western medical theory. In Taiwan, we integrate both Western and Chinese medicine. Every doctor is trained in both systems.
However, when we opt for Chinese medicine, Chinese medicine doctors emphasize the importance of thinking and communicating strictly within the framework of Chinese medicine theory for optimal utilization. To make the most of Chinese medicine, we can't approach it with a Western mindset, as the two theories are fundamentally different. This is why Taiwanese individuals often consult prophet books for guidance when using Chinese medicine.
Quoting Tom Storm
I'm sorry to hear about your pain. Here are some examples that might be helpful.
It's essential to identify the origin of the pain to determine whether acupuncture, herbs, Qigong, philosophy or a combination of everything would be the most effective approach.
1. **Stress:**
I experienced intense belly pain after a fall, and despite assurance from a Western doctor that I was fine, muscle relief medication didn't work. Turning to acupuncture, my pain vanished within the first few minutes.
2. **Inflammation:**
Dealing with severe joint pain due to long-term COVID, my doctor diagnosed it as inflammation. I incorporated mung beans, a potent anti-inflammatory food in Chinese medicine. After just one day of using mung beans, my pain significantly improved. Since my body responds well to mung beans, I include them in my daily diet, and the joint pain is completely gone.
3. **Stress:**
A friend facing financial stress and persistent back pain, likely aggravated by poor posture, considered suicide multiple times. Weekly acupuncture sessions significantly alleviated both his persistent suicidal thoughts and back pain.
4. **Inflammation:**
As his back pain worsened due to COVID, he tried mung beans, resulting in considerable improvement.
However, mung beans might be too intense for those with a cold body constitution. Turmeric could be a suitable alternative for individuals experiencing cold hands and feet.
In Taiwan, individuals often seek advice from both Western and Chinese doctors, tailoring their approach to each disease. Doctors in Taiwan emphasize the importance of considering both Western and Chinese medicine perspectives for comprehensive healthcare.
Then I think you are taking a misguided, and ultimately dangerous position. Given that you live in Seattle (iirc) that is probably not a great position to be in. I would recommend understanding 'medicine' proper. It is not particular to a system - it is a set of aims, for which a system must be adequate. Western medicine at least goes a long way toward.. TCM gets barely off the starting block imo.
Quoting YiRu Li
Can you not see that this is a serious, empirically verifiable, problem? This is the reason TCM has never been integrated. It doesn't work, and this attitude means that any aspects which are helpful in some way (all systems have these, basically) cannot be utilised outside the context of an ineffective, superstitious and scientifically semi-literate system.
I have no problem calling this nonsense.
Quoting YiRu Li
Yes: One is based in reality; one is based in fancy (more or less) as has been illustrated by every post you have made around the topic.
Quoting YiRu Li
Can you please outline whether you are actually serious in your approach throughout these exchanges?
It seems you are utterly incapable of considering anything but an ideological view point unsupported by any evidence. Your only citations are shoddy youtubers, spiritual texts, and anecdotes.
I fixed the problem with some regular special exercises for back problems. No pain for several years.
I never take advice from an internet forum. Thanks anyway.
Quoting Tom Storm
Glad you are healed!
Yes, exercise is always one of the solutions for pain.
Daoying is Qigong, exercise.
In the central land, the terrain is flat and humid, and the products are rich. Therefore, people have many kinds of food and live a relatively comfortable life. The diseases that occur here are mostly flaccidity, convulsions, cold and heat, etc. The treatment of these diseases should be guided by Daoying, Press method. Therefore, the governance method of Daoying, Press was promoted from the central region.
Is it possible there are language barrier issues here? I would really hate to devolve into irritation if the fact is we're not actually getting each other clearly.
No...I was just showing that in some situations patients will need exercise instead of acupuncture.
These are the situations for acupuncture:
In the eastern regions, where heaven and earth originated, known for fish and salt, situated by the sea and water, the people consume fish and favor salty flavors. They are content in their environment, delighting in their food. Fish consumption induces internal heat, and salt promotes blood circulation. As a result, the people in this region have dark skin and loose texture, prone to diseases such as abscesses. The appropriate treatment is stone needling. Hence, the method of treating diseases with stone needles also comes from the east.
In the southern regions, where nature nurtures everything, and yang energy is vigorous, the land is low with weak soil. Mist and dew frequently gather in this area. The people enjoy sour foods and fermented products, resulting in a dense and reddish skin texture. Diseases in this region often involve spasms and numbness, and the suitable treatment involves fine needle acupuncture. Hence, the method of treating diseases with nine needles also comes from the south.
Those two passages are absolute bollocks. They betray an extremely elementary understanding of medicine, geography and logic. Leaps on leaps on leaps.
There is something to the idea that if you live right near the ocean, you will affected by it. It does not follow that the craziness in those passages results.
I apologize for any confusion. It's more effective to validate it with a real case.
That's why Taiwanese turn to doctors' teachings on YouTube for a better understanding.
For instance, my friend is currently experiencing numbness, as mentioned in the previous paragraph about people in the south. He has been achieving excellent results from acupuncture.
The empirical data says acupuncture is a placebo, potentially releasing some muscle tension incidentally. Tom, and many others have anecdotes to this effect (or less!). So, using your logic, acupuncture is, in fact, a placebo-based practice.
If doctors in Taiwan are going to Youtube charlatans for advice on how to treat patients, I would recommend never going to one. That is bizarre and unethical.
It's straightforward to find scientific research supporting acupuncture's efficacy in treating every specific diseases, such as this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3833581/.
However, I believe that reading scientific reports is not the most efficient way to choose medical treatment. I prefer comprehensive solutions explained by doctors to quickly make decisions based on my specific conditions. In Taiwan, TV or YouTube shows typically invite at least 2 Western medicine and 2 Chinese medicine doctors to explain various treatment approaches for a particular disease within a 30-minute segment. These shows often present around 10 different cases, providing people with abundant information to choose the best solution according to their situation.
In my opinion, when people find time to complain that a medical method is not effective, it often indicates that the patient didn't have enough information when making the initial decision. It's crucial for individuals to be aware of whether acupuncture is suitable for them before undergoing the treatment, rather than discovering its appropriateness afterward.
My friends and I have successfully used acupuncture because we knew it was suitable for our specific situations before choosing this treatment option. We don't rely on acupuncture for every ailment; instead, we opt for it only when we know it's a suitable solution.
'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' is a book dating back 2,000 years. Even during that time, people had at least six different medical options to choose from whenever they fell ill (e.g., stone needling, poisonous medicines, needles, moxibustion, Qigong, massage, philosophy). It prompts the question: After 2,000 years, is Western medicine the only choice available to people? Have human beings witnessed a reduction in medical choices and less knowledge to know how to choose from various medical treatments, over this time span?
Suffice to say I think your position is devoid of anything resembling evidence or support (and I've been through the lit. on acupuncture - it has also been explicated in this thread to your position on that is false).
Perhaps we should stop here. I'm beginning to feel the need to use words like 'stupid' and 'stubborn' and 'inept' and 'uneducated' and 'ideologically posessed'.
I don't want to be responding to you negatively, but you have painted yourself into a corner that requires it.
Yes, forget about Chinese medicine.
I appreciate your excellent question, which allows me to gain a deeper understanding of 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine'.
Chinese medicine revolves around self-healing.
It's akin to Kung-Fu, requiring individuals to learn and practice themselves to unlock their body, mind, and spirit potential.
No one else or magical technology can help you discover your inherent potential and the power within nature.
Zero knowledge of Chinese medicine equals zero medical effect from Chinese medicine.
:chin: I don't quite understand that Chinese medicine tries to teach you how to self-heal, but you want to use 'science' to reject it? From my perspective, the understanding of 'science' enhances the explanation of Chinese medicine. This is why doctors in Taiwan undergo training in both Western and Chinese medicine.
Discussing the philosophy of equality might be a more engaging topic.
Quoting Hanover
Quoting AmadeusD
Quoting Tom Storm
:up:
You are absolutely correct in highlighting that the evidence provided by a few individuals regarding acupuncture may not be sufficient to prove its effectiveness.
According to Chinese medicine theory, acupuncture centers around the concept of Self-Healing. Therefore, the immediate effectiveness of acupuncture largely depends on the individual's inherent self-healing ability. Many doctors advocate the practice of Qigong and philosophy of equality, which can significantly enhance the healing effects of acupuncture on patients.
https://www.holdenqigong.com/qi-gong-as-an-effective-complement-to-acupuncture/
[ Qi Gong is especially important for those receiving acupuncture treatment since acupuncture relies on the bodys existing resources of qi. Through Qi Gong, practitioners who are also patients can cultivate their own inner resources, providing more qi for an acupuncturist to work with to remove blockages and increase the flow of qi throughout the body. ]
Alternatively, consistent use of acupuncture over time may lead to increasing effectiveness. I witnessed this firsthand with a friend who experienced continuous improvement after a year of weekly acupuncture sessions.
In my experience, I've observed that my chronic western medicine works more effectively when I engage in regular exercise, maintain a proper diet, ensure emotional well-being, and am younger. This principle can also be applied to acupuncture.
I believe a proper scientific experiment on acupuncture should focus on comparing the individual patient's progress over time, assessing any improvement in their self-healing ability. After all, self-healing ability is a highly personal aspect. It's meaningless to compare my self-healing effect with others.
I could no longer resist.
Yes! Give in to the nerd side.
Maybe it's not merely a joke but a truth.
Viewing things from different perspectives may help cultivate our sense of equality.
Doctors describe how the mindset of inequality affects our bodily systems:
When an event occurs, the body receives input.
The brain stores this input in the Hippocampus for long-term memory while simultaneously constructing default, standard, or habitual thinking patterns.
The Hippocampus functions like a cache in a computer, guiding our responses to similar events based on past experiences.
Upon encountering a repeated event, if it deviates from the standard stored in the Hippocampus, the Amygdala is triggered to generate emotions in response.
The Amygdala activates the Thalamus system, Hypothalamus, and Pituitary Gland, subsequently affecting the Endocrine and Autonomic systems through the Vagus Nerve, resulting in, for example, the release of Cortisol.
The standard established in the Hippocampus serves as the initial benchmark that dictates the series of bodily responses to an event.
The Hippocampus tends to establish standards that perceive events as falling below expectations.
This tendency is termed "Negativity Bias": wherein human nature tends to focus on the negative aspects of events.
According to statistics, the distress of losing $2,000 is five times stronger on average than the joy of earning the same amount.
This amplification of negative thinking serves to avoid danger and ensure better survival. However, the downside is that it can trigger negative emotions and Somatoform Disorders.
Can we remove this "Negativity Bias" and perceive everything as equal?
In Buddhism, this inclination is referred to as "Attachment," "Self," or "Ego."
Perhaps that's why Zhuang Zi and the I Ching are always studied alongside Chinese medicine.
Zhuang Zi teaches how to perceive everything as equal.
The I Ching teaches how to predict and explain ways to avoid negative outcomes and move towards goodness.
Thus, to overcome the "Negativity Bias."
I believe every effort we make to perceive things diversely and as equal can help train our Hippocampus.
This includes employing different approaches to mathematical problem-solving.