Problems of Identity and What Different Traditions Tell us About Doing Philosophy
They say that a fish doesn't know it is wet, but until it is yanked from the ocean, how would it ever know?
There is a famous story in philosophy known as Theseus' Ship. This story, roughly dating to the first century, is used to discuss a problem of identity roughly described as composition - the relation of a thing to its parts and what changes in parts preserves identity. The question posed is, at what point of change decomposition, re-composition, etc. does the thing in front of you (the Ship of Theseus) stop being itself (or become something else)? Similarly, there is a Buddhist text ("Questions of Milinda") that discusses identity, but the text does so by way of discussing a chariot.
While the questions posed are interesting in their own right, the point of this thread is not to discuss the answer, but whether the framework (story, if you will) in which the question is posed is meaningful to the way in which we do philosophy. When we inherit a tradition, are we doomed to its faults or limited by its ambition? Putting aside the quality of why one might prefer the Buddhist answer to the Western one, how do we evaluate, philosophically, the limits of our own intellectual garden and evaluate whether we wouldn't be better off being replanted somewhere else?
Maybe Witty would have had less to say if he studied Buddhism.
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut045.htm
and also
https://scholarworks.sjsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1125&context=comparativephilosophy
There is a famous story in philosophy known as Theseus' Ship. This story, roughly dating to the first century, is used to discuss a problem of identity roughly described as composition - the relation of a thing to its parts and what changes in parts preserves identity. The question posed is, at what point of change decomposition, re-composition, etc. does the thing in front of you (the Ship of Theseus) stop being itself (or become something else)? Similarly, there is a Buddhist text ("Questions of Milinda") that discusses identity, but the text does so by way of discussing a chariot.
While the questions posed are interesting in their own right, the point of this thread is not to discuss the answer, but whether the framework (story, if you will) in which the question is posed is meaningful to the way in which we do philosophy. When we inherit a tradition, are we doomed to its faults or limited by its ambition? Putting aside the quality of why one might prefer the Buddhist answer to the Western one, how do we evaluate, philosophically, the limits of our own intellectual garden and evaluate whether we wouldn't be better off being replanted somewhere else?
Maybe Witty would have had less to say if he studied Buddhism.
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut045.htm
Random Web Page Translation:
. . .
But King Milinda said to Nagasena: "I have not, Nagasena, spoken a falsehood. For it is in dependence on the pole, the axle, the wheels, the framework, the flag-staff, etc, there takes place this denomination "chariot", this designation, this conceptual term, a current appellation and a mere name."
"Your Majesty has spoken well about the chariot. It is just so with me. In dependence on the thirty-two parts of the body and the five Skandhas, there takes place this denomination "Nagasena", this designation, this conceptual term, a current appellation and a mere name. In ultimate realtiy, however, this person cannot be apprehended. And this has been said by our sister Vajira when she was face to face with the Lord Buddha:
"Where all constituent parts are present, the word "a chariot" is applied. So, likewise, where the skandhas are, the term a "being" commonly is used."
and also
https://scholarworks.sjsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1125&context=comparativephilosophy
WITTGENSTEIN AND BUDDHISM? ON ALLEGED AFFINITIES WITH ZEN AND MADHYAMAKA by FLORIAN DEMONT-BIAGGI:
. . .
And a bit further down in the same text, Wittgenstein tells us what is wrong with such
metaphysical questions. Referring to Freges discussion of numbers, he writes:
The question What is a number if it is not a sign? arises from a mistaken grammatical
background; for to this What? we imagine a This, or we expect some This in answer.
Even the tone of this question recalls the tone of Augustines question What is time? A
substantive [i.e. a noun] misleads us into looking for a substance.
. . .
So, what does N?g?rjunas scepticism amount to? Garfield produces the following
passages (verses 39 and 73) from the ??nyat?saptati:
Since ultimately action is empty,
If it is understood it is seen to be that way.
Since action does not exist,
That which arises from action does not exist either.
When one understands that this arises from that,
All of the false views are thereby refuted.
Hatred, anger and delusion are eliminated,
And undefiled, one achieves nirvana.24
. . .
The quote also reveals a central point of N?g?rjunas soteriology. Eternalism and
nihilism are thought to nourish hatred, anger and delusion, whereas N?g?rjunas
middle way between the extremes is thought to be ethically and soteriologically
undefiled and therefore leads to the soteriological goal, the extinction of suffering.
From this we learn that N?g?rjunas philosophy, especially his scepticism, is
soteriologically motivated and that, for him, philosophy is ancillary to religion.
Comments (29)
One could look at results. How much has Buddhism achieved? How happy are their followers? If you are unhappy and not achieving anything of use to anyone, why would you even want your own intellectual garden?
Finland is statistically measured the happiest country on earth for now. One could look at what they do, how they think.
Perfect. To me, this is one of the essences of philosophy. Question everything. Especially the bases you rest your assumptions on. We should be working to get to the foundation of thoughts and questions, not continuing to discuss incomplete and flawed frameworks laid out to us by people from a different era.
One might consider the carrot and its will to a new garden. It might want to be in a new garden, but it actually grows just where it was planted. Strange thing is, the carrot may not be able to pick where it grew up, but it might have something to say about where future carrots are planted.
I don't know that philosophy has a point at all. And, there are results other than happiness that you can look for. I just used it as an example.
You asked "how do we evaluate" and looking at results is the easy way to go about doing that. I am not saying it is the only answer, but it certainly is one.
Fair enough.
As more food for thought, consider this bit about Heidegger in the IEP's discussion of metaphilosophy and how different it would have looked (and how much less radical it would seem) in light of Nagarjuna's metaphysic of of non-metaphysics rather than the light of the West. (How often do philosophers blame the history of the "world" on the musings of long since dead Europeans?)
https://iep.utm.edu/con-meta/
This is too heavy for me to bother with. It could be right but it could also be just fluff.
Sorry, I am not about to try to dissect that. Too much effort when the text is so convoluted.
Well, "we evaluate our limits", so to speak, by actually doing philosophy instead of just talking about philosophy given that "answers" are merely how philosophical questions generate new (more probative) philosophical questions.
The new thinking was taken over by science, only gossip remains. With the assumption that you are searching for truth. If you want to create beauty then philosophy is still strong.
The search for the unknown.
Perhaps you need to define your philosophy that is not being done.
If you find new things about something that was until recently unknown then isnt that new?
The search isnt, but the results of the search are.
"Philosophy (love of wisdom in ancient Greek) is a systematic study of general and fundamental questions concerning topics like existence, reason, knowledge, value, mind, and language."
Seems to me that new development in these areas mostly happens in fields of sience.
I think that anyone now living that comes up with similar wisdom would encounter hard resistance, since these thoughts would be viewed as presumptuous. We tend to grab hold of such thoughts only when the author is safely dead and buried.
Also, " "Know Thyself" since the self desires, biases, taken-for-granteds, assumptions, limitations" sounds like it fits in the scientific field of psychology. Maybe similar work is already being done there, I do not know.
As I've pointed out already about so-called "results" ...
Quoting 180 Proof
To my mind science's horizons are explicitly philosophical.
Which is why I wrote habitually unknown (i.e. unexamined).
In the end, we have but one life (or one moment) to do as we will, and as far as I can tell, it requires a choice. Making the right choice, knowing what the right choice is, knowing what the choice is, knowing how to make the right choice, and making a choice wisely are not the same thing. Doing philosophy tends to be about making choices wisely, no?
I think philosophy consists in questioning choice and the choices one makes in order to understand how and why one chooses. One tends to learn more from making unwise choices, IME, than from "making choices wisely" in other words, failure, like loss, is the teacher, and those who do not seek to learn such lessons are foolish (i.e. unwise, or do not 'love wisdom').
:up:
I am always skeptical of these statistics. How are Germans with all due respect to the great German nation , with German food, German weather, and German *****, happier than Italians? Maybe they are more satisfied/fulfillied. But happy? I doubt it.
It is still a result that can be known.
I don't see why there would be some agenda to falsify this particular information. Guess we could visit Finland ourselves to verify, but I do not care enough about the topic to do so.
I don't think they are falsified. I just think they are misleading. Take Japan for example, a country known for its rough worklife and student life (though not nearly as bad as SK), also a country whose culture does not see full honesty positively. So it may be that when asked "Are you happy?", a Japanese person might say "Yes" for politeness even if they don't mean it. But the suicide rates there are specially high. I think they are high in Finland as well but that might be the lack of Sun, it really makes a difference.
They could be. I trust them because I see little reason to present false data in this case and I do not think that researchers are dumb. Also, if it was blatantly incorrect then some other source would likely have provided some counter evidence.
You'd be surprised.
Quoting mentos987
Perhaps in real sciences like chemistry and astronomy. But pure statistics like that based on surveys are just that, numbers based on the choices of a bunch of people. Even in biology you often see papers with false claims that nobody ever corrects, because there is no other researcher interested in doing so.
Being the happiest and most well-educated country on earth are big claims. If any other country thought that could lay claim to the same, they would do so.