Problems of Identity and What Different Traditions Tell us About Doing Philosophy

Ennui Elucidator January 10, 2024 at 17:57 4850 views 29 comments
They say that a fish doesn't know it is wet, but until it is yanked from the ocean, how would it ever know?

There is a famous story in philosophy known as Theseus' Ship. This story, roughly dating to the first century, is used to discuss a problem of identity roughly described as composition - the relation of a thing to its parts and what changes in parts preserves identity. The question posed is, at what point of change decomposition, re-composition, etc. does the thing in front of you (the Ship of Theseus) stop being itself (or become something else)? Similarly, there is a Buddhist text ("Questions of Milinda") that discusses identity, but the text does so by way of discussing a chariot.

While the questions posed are interesting in their own right, the point of this thread is not to discuss the answer, but whether the framework (story, if you will) in which the question is posed is meaningful to the way in which we do philosophy. When we inherit a tradition, are we doomed to its faults or limited by its ambition? Putting aside the quality of why one might prefer the Buddhist answer to the Western one, how do we evaluate, philosophically, the limits of our own intellectual garden and evaluate whether we wouldn't be better off being replanted somewhere else?

Maybe Witty would have had less to say if he studied Buddhism.

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut045.htm

Random Web Page Translation:
. . .

But King Milinda said to Nagasena: "I have not, Nagasena, spoken a falsehood. For it is in dependence on the pole, the axle, the wheels, the framework, the flag-staff, etc, there takes place this denomination "chariot", this designation, this conceptual term, a current appellation and a mere name."

"Your Majesty has spoken well about the chariot. It is just so with me. In dependence on the thirty-two parts of the body and the five Skandhas, there takes place this denomination "Nagasena", this designation, this conceptual term, a current appellation and a mere name. In ultimate realtiy, however, this person cannot be apprehended. And this has been said by our sister Vajira when she was face to face with the Lord Buddha:

"Where all constituent parts are present, the word "a chariot" is applied. So, likewise, where the skandhas are, the term a "being" commonly is used."


and also

https://scholarworks.sjsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1125&context=comparativephilosophy

WITTGENSTEIN AND BUDDHISM? ON ALLEGED AFFINITIES WITH ZEN AND MADHYAMAKA by FLORIAN DEMONT-BIAGGI:
. . .

And a bit further down in the same text, Wittgenstein tells us what is wrong with such
metaphysical questions. Referring to Frege’s discussion of numbers, he writes:

The question ‘What is a number if it is not a sign?’ arises from a mistaken grammatical
background; for to this ‘What?’ we imagine a ‘This’, or we expect some ‘This’ in answer.
Even the tone of this question recalls the tone of Augustine’s question ‘What is time?’ A
substantive [i.e. a noun] misleads us into looking for a substance.

. . .

So, what does N?g?rjuna’s scepticism amount to? Garfield produces the following
passages (verses 39 and 73) from the ??nyat?saptati:

Since ultimately action is empty,
If it is understood it is seen to be that way.
Since action does not exist,
That which arises from action does not exist either.
When one understands that this arises from that,
All of the false views are thereby refuted.
Hatred, anger and delusion are eliminated,
And undefiled, one achieves nirvana.24

. . .

The quote also reveals a central point of N?g?rjuna’s soteriology. Eternalism and
nihilism are thought to nourish hatred, anger and delusion, whereas N?g?rjuna’s
middle way between the extremes is thought to be ethically and soteriologically
undefiled and therefore leads to the soteriological goal, the extinction of suffering.
From this we learn that N?g?rjuna’s philosophy, especially his scepticism, is
soteriologically motivated and that, for him, philosophy is ancillary to religion.



Comments (29)

mentos987 January 10, 2024 at 18:11 #871150
Quoting Ennui Elucidator
Putting aside the quality of why one might prefer the Buddhist answer to the Western one, how do we evaluate, philosophically, the limits of our own intellectual garden and evaluate whether we wouldn't be better off being replanted somewhere else?


One could look at results. How much has Buddhism achieved? How happy are their followers? If you are unhappy and not achieving anything of use to anyone, why would you even want your own intellectual garden?

Finland is statistically measured the happiest country on earth for now. One could look at what they do, how they think.
Philosophim January 10, 2024 at 18:14 #871151
Quoting Ennui Elucidator
While the questions posed are interesting in their own right, the point of this thread is not to discuss the answer, but whether the framework (story, if you will) in which the question is posed is meaningful to the way in which we do philosophy. When we inherit a tradition, are we doomed to its faults or limited by its ambition? Putting aside the quality of why one might prefer the Buddhist answer to the Western one, how do we evaluate, philosophically, the limits of our own intellectual garden and evaluate whether we wouldn't be better off being replanted somewhere else?


Perfect. To me, this is one of the essences of philosophy. Question everything. Especially the bases you rest your assumptions on. We should be working to get to the foundation of thoughts and questions, not continuing to discuss incomplete and flawed frameworks laid out to us by people from a different era.
Ennui Elucidator January 10, 2024 at 19:15 #871164
Reply to mentos987 This presumes all sorts of things, Mentos, not the least of which is that happiness is the point of philosophy. Also, this question is not so much about what "I" should do, but about where a philosophical community chooses to graze. We learn, we talk, we teach - each part essential in carrying on philosophy.

One might consider the carrot and its will to a new garden. It might want to be in a new garden, but it actually grows just where it was planted. Strange thing is, the carrot may not be able to pick where it grew up, but it might have something to say about where future carrots are planted.
mentos987 January 10, 2024 at 19:25 #871168
Quoting Ennui Elucidator
This presumes all sorts of things, Mentos, not the least of which is that happiness is the point of philosophy

I don't know that philosophy has a point at all. And, there are results other than happiness that you can look for. I just used it as an example.

You asked "how do we evaluate" and looking at results is the easy way to go about doing that. I am not saying it is the only answer, but it certainly is one.


Ennui Elucidator January 10, 2024 at 19:34 #871169
Reply to mentos987
Fair enough.


As more food for thought, consider this bit about Heidegger in the IEP's discussion of metaphilosophy and how different it would have looked (and how much less radical it would seem) in light of Nagarjuna's metaphysic of of non-metaphysics rather than the light of the West. (How often do philosophers blame the history of the "world" on the musings of long since dead Europeans?)

https://iep.utm.edu/con-meta/

IEP on 'Metaphilosophy' emphasis own:
. . .
What though is wrong with the real being revealed as resource? Enframing is ‘monstrous’ (Heidegger 1994: 321). It is monstrous – Heidegger contends – because it is nihilism. Nihilism is a ‘forgetfulness’ of das Sein (Seinsvergessenheit). Some such forgetfulness is nigh inevitable. We are interested in beings as they present themselves to us. So we overlook the conditions of that presentation, namely, being and Being. But Enframing represents a more thoroughgoing form of forgetfulness. The hegemony of resources makes it very hard (harder than usual – recall above) to conceive that beings could be otherwise, which is to say, to conceive that there is something called ‘Being’ that could yield different regimes of being. In fact, Enframing actively denies being/Being. That is because Enframing, or the metaphysics/science that corresponds to it, proceeds as if humanity were the measure of all things and hence as if being, or that which grants being independently of us (Being), were nothing. Such nihilism sounds bearable. But Heidegger lays much at its door: an impoverishment of culture; a deep kind of homelessness; the devaluation of the highest values (see Young 2002: ch. 2 and passim). He goes so far as to trace ‘the events of world history in this [the twentieth] century’ to Seinsvergessenheit (Heidegger in Wolin 1993: 69)."

Heidegger’s response to nihilism is ‘thinking’ (Denken). The thinking at issue is a kind of thoughtful questioning. Its object – that which it thinks about – can be the pre-Socratic ideas from which philosophy developed, or philosophy’s history, or Things, or art. Whatever its object, thinking always involves recognition that it is das Sein, albeit in some interplay with humanity, which determines how beings are. Indeed, Heideggerian thinking involves wonder and gratitude in the face of das Sein. Heidegger uses Meister Eckhart’s notion of ‘releasement’ to elaborate upon such thinking. The idea (prefigured, in fact, in Heidegger’s earlier work) is of a non-impositional comportment towards beings which lets beings be what they are. That comportment ‘grant(s) us the possibility of dwelling in the world in a totally different way’. It promises ‘a new ground and a new foundation upon which we can stand and endure in the world of technology without being imperiled by it’ (Heidegger 1966: 55). Heidegger calls the dwelling at issue ‘poetic’ and one way in which he specifies it is via various poets. Moreover, some of Heidegger’s own writing is semi-poetic. A small amount of it actually consists of poems. So it is not entirely surprising to find Heidegger claiming that, ‘All philosophical thinking’ is ‘in itself poetic’ (Heidegger 1991, vol. 2: 73; Heidegger made this claim at a time when he still considered himself a philosopher as against a non-metaphysical, and hence non-philosophical, ‘thinker’). The claim is connected to the centrality that Heidegger gives to language, a centrality that is summed up (a little gnomically) in the statement that language is ‘the house of das Sein’ (Heidegger 1994: 217).

....
mentos987 January 10, 2024 at 19:48 #871175
Reply to Ennui Elucidator
This is too heavy for me to bother with. It could be right but it could also be just fluff.
Ennui Elucidator January 10, 2024 at 19:51 #871176
Reply to mentos987 The important part is the narrative arc, not the parsing of Heidegger. The end of philosophy (problems dissolved when language is given its proper place) the beginning of Buddhism.
mentos987 January 10, 2024 at 19:55 #871178
Reply to Ennui Elucidator
Sorry, I am not about to try to dissect that. Too much effort when the text is so convoluted.
180 Proof January 10, 2024 at 20:14 #871181
Quoting Ennui Elucidator
Putting aside the quality of why one might prefer the Buddhist answer to the Western one, how do we evaluate, philosophically, the limits of our own intellectual garden and evaluate whether we wouldn't be better off being replanted somewhere else?

Well, "we evaluate our limits", so to speak, by actually doing philosophy instead of just talking about philosophy given that "answers" are merely how philosophical questions generate new (more probative) philosophical questions.
Ennui Elucidator January 10, 2024 at 20:21 #871185
Reply to 180 Proof In that, no-essence, the thing is in the doing kind of way? Just a question of whether what we are doing is customarily called "philosophy"?

180 Proof January 10, 2024 at 20:27 #871187
Reply to Ennui Elucidator You're still only talking about philosophy without doing it – at most, IMO, that's gossip, not thinking.


mentos987 January 10, 2024 at 20:32 #871189
Quoting 180 Proof
You're only talking about philosophy without doing it – at most, IMO, that's gossip, not thinking.


The new thinking was taken over by science, only gossip remains. With the assumption that you are searching for truth. If you want to create beauty then philosophy is still strong.
180 Proof January 10, 2024 at 20:34 #871190
Reply to mentos987 What "new thinking" are you talking about?
mentos987 January 10, 2024 at 20:38 #871191
Reply to 180 Proof
The search for the unknown.

Perhaps you need to define your philosophy that is not being done.
180 Proof January 10, 2024 at 20:39 #871192
Reply to mentos987 Nothing "new" in that ... Socrates teaches "Know Thyself" since self – desires, biases, taken-for-granteds, assumptions, limitations – are habitually "unknown" (i.e. unexamined).
mentos987 January 10, 2024 at 20:41 #871193
Reply to 180 Proof
If you find new things about something that was until recently unknown then isn’t that new?
180 Proof January 10, 2024 at 20:45 #871194
Reply to mentos987 My point is "the search for the unknown", as you said, is not "new" within or without philosophy.
mentos987 January 10, 2024 at 20:47 #871195
Quoting 180 Proof
"the search for the unknown", as you said, is not "new"

The search isn’t, but the results of the search are.

"Philosophy (love of wisdom in ancient Greek) is a systematic study of general and fundamental questions concerning topics like existence, reason, knowledge, value, mind, and language."

Seems to me that new development in these areas mostly happens in fields of sience.
mentos987 January 10, 2024 at 20:55 #871199
Quoting 180 Proof
Socrates teaches "Know Thyself" since the self – desires, biases, taken-for-granteds, assumptions, limitations – are habitually "unknown" (i.e. unexamined).


I think that anyone now living that comes up with similar wisdom would encounter hard resistance, since these thoughts would be viewed as presumptuous. We tend to grab hold of such thoughts only when the author is safely dead and buried.

Also, " "Know Thyself" since the self – desires, biases, taken-for-granteds, assumptions, limitations" sounds like it fits in the scientific field of psychology. Maybe similar work is already being done there, I do not know.
180 Proof January 10, 2024 at 20:56 #871200
Quoting mentos987
The search isn’t, but the results of the search are

As I've pointed out already about so-called "results" ...
Quoting 180 Proof
... "answers" are merely how philosophical questions generate new (more probative) philosophical questions.

To my mind science's horizons are explicitly philosophical.

Reply to mentos987 Which is why I wrote habitually unknown (i.e. unexamined).
Ennui Elucidator January 10, 2024 at 22:31 #871222
Reply to 180 Proof I am not going to disagree with you (as there are all sorts of senses in which you are right), but on a low level, I'm not sure why asking for a method by which we try to evaluate the medium in which we exist and whether it would not be better to exist in a different medium is not an invitation to do philosophy with me. In as much as there is the suggestion that language (i.e. community) sets the rules for what questions are tractable (or not), it seems to be the case that even if different questions don't arise in a new language, perhaps other answers will. It is like trying to solve a math problem in one field using tools of another - sometimes it is a waste of time (impossible, possible but vastly less efficient, etc.) and sometimes it makes a hard problem easy.

In the end, we have but one life (or one moment) to do as we will, and as far as I can tell, it requires a choice. Making the right choice, knowing what the right choice is, knowing what the choice is, knowing how to make the right choice, and making a choice wisely are not the same thing. Doing philosophy tends to be about making choices wisely, no?


180 Proof January 10, 2024 at 23:17 #871234
Quoting Ennui Elucidator
Doing philosophy tends to be about making choices wisely, no?

I think philosophy consists in questioning choice and the choices one makes in order to understand how and why one chooses. One tends to learn more from making unwise choices, IME, than from "making choices wisely" – in other words, failure, like loss, is the teacher, and those who do not seek to learn such lessons are foolish (i.e. unwise, or do not 'love wisdom').
wonderer1 January 11, 2024 at 01:27 #871262
Quoting 180 Proof
I think philosophy consists in questioning choice and the choices one makes in order to understand how and why one chooses. One tends to learn more from making unwise choices, IME, than from "making choices wisely" – in other words, failure, like loss, is the teacher, and those who do not seek to learn such lessons are foolish (i.e. unwise, or do not 'love wisdom').


:up:
Lionino January 16, 2024 at 14:11 #872720
Quoting mentos987
Finland is statistically measured the happiest country on earth for now. One could look at what they do, how they think.


I am always skeptical of these statistics. How are Germans — with all due respect to the great German nation —, with German food, German weather, and German *****, happier than Italians? Maybe they are more satisfied/fulfillied. But happy? I doubt it.
mentos987 January 16, 2024 at 15:47 #872738
Reply to Lionino
It is still a result that can be known.

I don't see why there would be some agenda to falsify this particular information. Guess we could visit Finland ourselves to verify, but I do not care enough about the topic to do so.
Lionino January 16, 2024 at 16:09 #872749
Quoting mentos987
I don't see why there would be some agenda to falsify this particular information


I don't think they are falsified. I just think they are misleading. Take Japan for example, a country known for its rough worklife and student life (though not nearly as bad as SK), also a country whose culture does not see full honesty positively. So it may be that when asked "Are you happy?", a Japanese person might say "Yes" for politeness even if they don't mean it. But the suicide rates there are specially high. I think they are high in Finland as well — but that might be the lack of Sun, it really makes a difference.
mentos987 January 16, 2024 at 16:17 #872752
Quoting Lionino
I just think they are misleading

They could be. I trust them because I see little reason to present false data in this case and I do not think that researchers are dumb. Also, if it was blatantly incorrect then some other source would likely have provided some counter evidence.
Lionino January 16, 2024 at 17:02 #872756
Quoting mentos987
and I do not think that researchers are dumb


You'd be surprised.

Quoting mentos987
some other source would likely have provided some counter evidence


Perhaps in real sciences like chemistry and astronomy. But pure statistics like that based on surveys are just that, numbers based on the choices of a bunch of people. Even in biology you often see papers with false claims that nobody ever corrects, because there is no other researcher interested in doing so.
mentos987 January 16, 2024 at 17:16 #872757
Reply to Lionino
Being the happiest and most well-educated country on earth are big claims. If any other country thought that could lay claim to the same, they would do so.