Why Do We Dream? What is the Significance of Dreams for Understanding 'Mind' and Consciousness?
I raise this topic mainly in relation to the philosophy of mind and the nature of consciousness. I come from an interest in psychoanalysis, including the Jungian perspective of dreams. However, I am aware that philosophical consideration of the nature of dreams may go far beyond this. Some may regard dreams as qualia for understanding while others may see it as a debris of psychological understanding.
I am inclined to see it as between the two, especially as ideas of consciousness and unconsciousness may be a continuum. Michael Frayn; in, 'The Human Touch: Our Part in the Creation of a Universe' (2006) looks at the evolution of dreaming, including psychoanalysis as 'working out of some inner conflict.'
The role of dreaming may be viewed as significant or not. Frayn argues,
'Perhaps dreaming has no function. If it really does have no bearing on whether we really live or die, or whether we mate or fail to, perhaps it's not subject to the pressures of selection.' Objectively, dreams may be seen and dismissed so easily in this way. However, it is possible that such a perspective leaves out the mythological dimensions of life as a source of meaning. Also, metaphysically, to dismiss such aspects of existence may be a rather 'flat' perspective of the understanding of the nature of 'mind' and consciousness. So, I am querying the relevance of the layers of meaning of dreams and the nature of symbolic 'reality'. This may be important for understanding literature and the arts.
How important are dreams for understanding the juxtaposition of images and experiential drama at the centre of human life? On one hand dreams may be seen as having a low profile of importance in contrast to the 'real' events of significance in life, Or, alternatively, dreams may be seen as a psychological bridge in thinking of the 'real' life aspects of human life. So, I am asking whether dreams are a mere exercise of little significance in human understanding or as central as aspects of the themes and dilemmas of life? Also, how important is the development of one's inner life as an essential narrative aspect of mediating the dramas of outer and inner life experiences?
I am inclined to see it as between the two, especially as ideas of consciousness and unconsciousness may be a continuum. Michael Frayn; in, 'The Human Touch: Our Part in the Creation of a Universe' (2006) looks at the evolution of dreaming, including psychoanalysis as 'working out of some inner conflict.'
The role of dreaming may be viewed as significant or not. Frayn argues,
'Perhaps dreaming has no function. If it really does have no bearing on whether we really live or die, or whether we mate or fail to, perhaps it's not subject to the pressures of selection.' Objectively, dreams may be seen and dismissed so easily in this way. However, it is possible that such a perspective leaves out the mythological dimensions of life as a source of meaning. Also, metaphysically, to dismiss such aspects of existence may be a rather 'flat' perspective of the understanding of the nature of 'mind' and consciousness. So, I am querying the relevance of the layers of meaning of dreams and the nature of symbolic 'reality'. This may be important for understanding literature and the arts.
How important are dreams for understanding the juxtaposition of images and experiential drama at the centre of human life? On one hand dreams may be seen as having a low profile of importance in contrast to the 'real' events of significance in life, Or, alternatively, dreams may be seen as a psychological bridge in thinking of the 'real' life aspects of human life. So, I am asking whether dreams are a mere exercise of little significance in human understanding or as central as aspects of the themes and dilemmas of life? Also, how important is the development of one's inner life as an essential narrative aspect of mediating the dramas of outer and inner life experiences?
Comments (39)
The question of dreams, fantasy and idealism may be important here, especially in connection with opposite perspectives, which may involve a reductionist approach, 'flat' thinking, and even nihilism. It is questionable as to what extent nihilism views nihilism. Is everything in life viewed as 'nothing of significance'? Are dreams to be reduced to psychological experience and what does psychological experience amount to? Are dreams a mere aspect of fabricated illusion or an essential aspect of fantasy, as higher aspirations, goals and values?
Also, "dreaming" might be how idle minds play with themselves when they are not minding what their bodies are actively, voluntarily doing. Most mammalian species have been observed 'running in their sleep' and all have been observed 'playing' when awake, so it's reasonable, I think, to surmise from this indirect evidence that "dreaming" is a basic biological function of neurologically complex, sentient species.
Although there is no real evidence to the idea I have read several papers about how dreams are possibly linked to learning and memory functions.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC534695/
I think and believe that ANY aspect of life may be built upon and become more. Dreams are perhaps the single best example of this that transcends the physical world.
I have FELT my dreams have an effect on my waking state more than once. The meaning was not clear to me after reviewing the dream the first time. I have recurring dreams all the time. I have some that resonate since my childhood and still have them.
Most dreams are just seemingly random and engaged in very much the kind of garbage detail that often invades our lives when we are not ordered. Since we are often not ordered, especially in weak areas of our skillset, this is frequent.
I do have lucid dreams and I can cause them to happen with effort. Flight is frequent for me and the weirdness there is that I sometimes flap, literally leveraging the air density to pull me up with will inside the dream. Then there are times I am like Doctor Strange on a flying carpet that is not there. Then there are times that I am more like Superman and just going anywhere I want.
Quoting Jack Cummins
I think they are meaningful and also a seed of new meaning that will mean more as evolution progresses their functional use. But the seeds of that use are surely already here, now.
Quoting Jack Cummins
I agree and THAT juxtaposition is precisely the growth point for anything, isn't it?
Coaching volleyball its like the girl will walk up under the ball and try to hit it. But no jump. Then they start hopping some and miss the hit. Then then hop and hit. Finally they jump and hit. Then they have a hit and can modify that as a weapon in the game. All desire, all 'becoming' works this way, a progress that starts in seed form.
And I know you know this from the esoteric thread, but 'real' is actually real.
Quoting Jack Cummins
The inner world is the core which projects to the outside. Likewise the outside can impose upon the inner world.
Dreams step beyond both to the unified world, perfection. Various layers of spirituality, esoteric mystery, are the dimension to which dreams offer access. That WILL become reality as experienced soon enough. Baby steps to godhood.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_study
Thank you for your detailed reply. You speak of the inner world and outer world, which is the main dichotomy between waking and sleep/dream consciousness.. So much of waking consciousness may be regarded by many as the basis of what is 'real'. I am not disregarding such a division but when it is seen ad an absolute division it may become more of a burden than a source for helpful reflection.
I know that my dreams are not 'real' in an objective sense and have an inner logic or meaning. It may be involve psychological.meaning and Interpretation primarily, but this may be as important as some other objective criteria for understanding 'truth' and meaning.
I am not wishing to dismiss the value of empirical understanding and evidence, in favour of a form of skepticism. It is possible to get carried away with dream 'reality' to the point where it is seen as more 'real' than waking consciousness. Some Eastern philosophy gets to that point, where the everyday perspective is seen as an illusion or 'maya'. That may be going too far, and, if anything sleep and dreaming may be more about not getting too caught up with the splits between hardcore and rigid thought to the point where the nature and role of imagination are cast aside.
For example, if I meet someone I know in my dreams it is extremely different from a meeting in daily life. However, it may still be important for understanding the relationship on a less conscious or subliminal level. I would go as far ad to say that such 'meeting of minds' may almost as real as what happens in waking life because the nature of connection and relationships involves so much much which is subliminal and beyond the scope of verbal communication and understanding.
I wonder to what extent the experience of dreams is related to a different kind of consciousnes and memory. It may be different from the conventional forms of understanding and causality, or linear logic and the arrow of time in terms of explanation. Here, I am speaking of a way of intuitive understanding, which may so different from the basics of commonsense logic and explanation. In particular, it may involve intuitive understanding.
I try these days to disregard such a division. Not so much that others think I believe they are precisely the same, like a lunatic, but enough to let them know that I do not discount the reality that includes the influence of dreams.
Quoting Jack Cummins
But this is incorrect. Objectively you did have a dream. Objectively the dream itself was real as a dream.
There is a difference between saying that and saying that the contents of the dream are objective within the external world. The unwary can become confused.
Unicorns are real. They are real because they as a concept affect the world. Little girls (mostly) are enamored with and cause real world problems because of unicorns.
Dreams are objectively real. Their content does not always instantiate itself into the external world. But many dreams do become real. That is how advancement in technology happens. Architecture, ideas, etc all start only as dreams. The nature of that progression dream->instantiation->real external truth is amazing to admit and focus on.
Quoting Chet Hawkins
:up: I like this but I feel I could add something more to this. I think there is more to keep in mind or consider before getting here...i believe. But its not wrong at all, its right.
When you mention advancements in technology, architecture, ideas in that progression, where could one start or begin to understand this? How can you? Its interesting and impressive and worthy of acknowledgment that you chose to word this sentence in the way you did though. Thats more what I am wondering, how you figure that anything about the nature of about this progression only takes "admitting" **(accepting) (satisfaction)???** and focus and will to be amused or amazed? Is that natural to try and force that understanding into someone? Beat the solider into someone is work, chet! Good work, keep it shining.
The nature of that progression is for who to learn and who to teach? Who to make things happen from these "dreams" you mention...I like to use "visions" instead of dreams in my notes on this progression, and use slightly different stances. Its not about bridging gaps but finding and building new routes...that is always happening and going to happen, I believe. But thats my problem and I am willing to solve it with what I claim to be real knowledge not necessarily linked to any belief system but reason to believe and experience I can explain to an end that is real...
Chet when you said " That is how advancement in technology happens." I am just making sure you considered and confirm that its not that is HOW it happens but what happens and what is to be true is contained within our understanding of the world and the real external truth is bigger and more certain and this, our current scope is limited, until it isnt....Until its what is real?
Sure it's possible to bring into existence a "design" of something, anything one imagines to be "a good idea" or invention or dream or patent idea whatever... but when there is an absence of evidence/intention/dedication to the process of design within the visionaries original idea, it might make the how important to keep in mind...
How to get intelligent design from unintelligent visions?....And why is it the design or designer in question of any concern? It seems maybe perhaps one believes in intelligent design, but i think those same people could confuse the reality of the design and origin of the vision. It is important to regard the how and why you should go about the design, which isnt always the final product or overall vision, as the vision could evolve based on how it is consumed in reality....The design is perfected through many tests and trials, prototypes, different versions/adaptations stemming from a vision, that was maybe founded on a baseless idea.... but through and with an intelligent design, it is possible to start manipulating the very function and overall purpose of a vision (intentions and functions, and abilities and usage could change over time, as people go through phases and so does standards and environments.)
So, by being able to see design capabilities in that vision, requires intelligence, which is the knowledge one has to be able to see a design from the vision but not just see it, be able to produce or recreate the design based on approved plans (fully defined by constraints, tolerances and required dimensions, scales, measurements to be recreated accurately and communicating clearly in real life with credentials to back up your ability to work on the design.)
This is probably where the myth-making function resides: a myth, or spiritual idea, is simply excellent story-telling raised to revered status - usually by the social prominence of the dreamer.
On the emotional level, the same kind of thing happens. Our dreaming mind is able to cast the people we know into different roles, so that we are able to express how we really feel about them, unrestarined by obligations and social mores. The dreaming mind also re-figures our internal conflicts and repressed fears, in graphic images, which sometimes suggest what we need to do to improve the situation.
On the most mundane level, as we dream about the new skills we are learning or the new environments in which we are expected to function, dreams provide a kind of safe rehearsal place, allowing us to acclimatize and gain confidence.
What the dreaming mind uses as raw material is whatever images we have stored in memory. It can't create anything unique; it can only recombine what we already know.
OK, on we go ...
Quoting Kizzy
There are myriad accounts of inventors and others that admit freely that 'it came to me in a dream' and this does not even forbid inclusion of simple imagination, ... daydreaming.
Quoting Kizzy
Understanding proceeds quite naturally from doing. This is anger's participation. Doing is in the now, present tense, anger, being, action. But the how includes the dream itself, the wish, the image forward combining and becoming something new from old patterns. And of course fear is the past, all the old patterns, how well they are known, the structure of proper relationships as opposed to 'eliminated' or unlikely pathways to success and function.
Quoting Kizzy
If one does not admit the mechanism, one is forced to rely upon 'magical thinking'. If the mechanism is admitted or suspected, then 'proper' research may begin in earnest to confirm or validate the theory/hypothesis.
Amazement is the joy factor of fear moving from Enneatype 7 into the 'real' world, the present, at Enneatype 8. This requires a challenge to the vision, anger's action with infused desire. All of that matches the model.
Quoting Kizzy
New ideas and change are resisted by cowardice. Fear clings to the side of the pool. But between 7 and 8 we leave the realm of fear and proceed into the realm of anger. From the past to the present led by the future (the vision). This is how reality works, and the dream is included in reality. The joy component of fear, desire infused fear, Enneatype 7 is thus the third and final reaction of fear. It is where Cowardice turns to Hedonism so that the old fears may now be indulged. The trap of 7 though is that we spin and get caught in the eddy of Hedonism, another immoral path. So by both actions, the Hedonistic tendency AND the general cowardice of the new pattern becoming comfortable and old, stability returns and it is a while before we dream again to a new vision.
Quoting Kizzy
(That is) A great question in light of my efforts these days.
I will quote Aristotle:
"Those who know, do. Those who understand, teach."
But the clarity of AT LEAST learning is clearly for anyone that does not understand. But notice how new groundbreakers face a legion of doubters, over expressed fear (too much stability) from the clingers to the past ways. Copernicus is rolling over in his grave to add his strength to this statement.
I often say this, 'The one-eyed man IS NOT king in the land of blind as the old and foolish aphorism states. The anti-wisdom of that meme is clear to me. No, instead Jerla-merel(the series 'See') is deemed insane and heretical for speaking of these 'visions'. None but a very few smart and wise types can understand the new vision. The rank and file will summarily reject the new idea until the 'gatekeepers' have approved it for public consumption. This accreditation model is horrid and although perhaps inevitable, causes many great new ideas to be lost. There is an 'activation energy', an escape velocity to ideas.
A new sensor (body - mind connection) causes great trouble until its readouts are understood. What does this say of Migraine headaches? What does it say of bipolar disorder? What does it say of Neuralgia? And we just medicate such things. Is that really wise? Put the blinders on. Things that make you go, hmmm. Then there is the tendency in some people to eschew all medicine and be tough (Enneatype 8), to 'heal' naturally. I promise that is the stuff dreams are made of.
Quoting Kizzy
Many traditions respect dreams more so than 'modern' science does. But even science now is after it, more open. Desire is really running amok these days. What will happen? Chaos is an explosion. It WILL explode. It's only a matter of time. All things considered the atom bomb was fairly well contained, unless you ask people in two Japanese prefectures.
Quoting Kizzy
Yes perfection is calling tp us from the end of time maybe. It is the source of desire, of chaos.
Quoting Kizzy
As long as 'real' include the unknown, and thus desire to lead us to it, I agree.
Quoting Kizzy
This paragraph is confusing for me. The process I briefly showed IS ... HOW ... it happens. What happens is different in each case, because what is a specific term, whereas how is generic. The process pattern is generic. Any instantiation of it, all the parts of cause and effect are 'what's.
Yes the external truth, perfection, is 'bigger' along each virtue vector than any past understanding of truth was.
Quoting Kizzy
It's interesting is it not? The vision of
Quoting Kizzy
They ARE NOT unintelligent. All chaos partakes of patterns, finally. It cannot be made to un-belong from the metaverse.
Quoting Kizzy
So, this may not be your point here (I answer by quoting WITHOUT reading ahead), but the designer is not relevant. Truth is unchanging. And current states IMPLY and INFER the next possible states. Designers and visionaries that tap into this process, the how, as the who, are not precisely relevant. Our human tendency to attach these whats to some who is rather childish. It smacks of pointless ego. I am not immune to that immoral tendency myself, but, the truth belongs to all.
It JUST LIKE the idiot that works so hard after the shipwreck and as the population grows onto the island they wrecked on. He gather all the yip root and later it is determined that it is the only source of vitamin c that is easily and readily available here. And in Capitalism we reward this chap for his immoral act of cornering the market. Uh, gee, thanks. We respect his work and let him then ... rule. It's ridiculous. Everything belongs to everyone, but, I digress. Derail warning!
Quoting Kizzy
Truth, love, all, and even God are all synonymous to me. Meaning proceeds endlessly and reliably from meaning. Circular is a PROPER type of logic, not bad as is currently 'known'.
Someone WILL discover the resonance with truth amid vision and reveal it to their in group, in this case humanity, or perhaps Cetaceans. So long and thanks for all the fish!
The design is the ONLY ONE it could ever be. That is why truth is objective. The system cannot fail in any way that we know (yet). Maybe if during the life of the universe no one achieves perfection then that universe fails. But I doubt it. It just restarts.
Quoting Kizzy
Consumption is not as interesting to me. That's like mob rules nonsense. Who cares what idiots do with good things? It's almost certain they will squander them. Like any verb it has to have wise in front of it to be good. You allude to that with why in the statement but why can be immoral as well as moral. And that is my point mostly. How something is used will be mostly immoral. We have already learned to treat new discoveries with some care, because the immoral motivations of many of us are deeply suspect.
Quoting Kizzy
People 'going through phases' is what I am referring to. The only proper transitions are from lesser moral understanding to greater. But chaos does not work that way. Desire causes the fragmentation of each vision as it is delivered, precisely because too many people are allowed perhaps too much freedom in their use of dangerous new understandings. Yet and still, due to the nature of free will, this is fairly well required. The common man must learn in the body memory what is bad. So they must suffer their depredations, their misuse of new understandings, in order to ACTUALLY understand. An anger type will usually throw fuel on this fire. 'Get er done!' Elect Trump! Bring things to their most conflicted head. Let the earning of wisdom begin in earnest! The game is afoot! {These statements do not reflect the political beliefs of the author or the website. They are only demonstrative.}
Quoting Kizzy
I disagree that credentials are in any way wise, except that we then know the person has been through a peer vetting process. The reverse is not wise. That is denying someone can contribute who has no credentials. The acquiring of credentials is an orderly cowardice thing. It is precisely the non-ordered types that tend to be the BEST inventors and dreamers. Gee, I wonder why? Nod's as good as a wink to a blind man, eh?
I didnt mean the papers chet, I meant the credibility. Thats my bad. Credible in your craft, the experience, the work and projects completed, the relevance to the project, the power?? Thats a problem with who is hiring who to complete and build their visions or dreams or design..Thats just $$$ talk. The order of how one acquires is also in that boat I believe, but while the order is sure cowardice, i agree to what you mean. But I disagree when you say, "It is precisely the non-ordered types that tend to be the BEST inventors and dreamers." Where are they then? Inventors and dreamers....dreamers can be skilled in other ways their baseless visions can be included...but yeah I did not mean credentials in ANY way BUT when they are rightfully attained, is that all it takes for "we" to approve? A peer vetted "process"? (is that not an order, too?) What about just getting to know people, seeing the work, agreeing to work together, a decision is made...Is it not the credentials, fake earned or neither, and also about the money? Credentials can be faked, masked, covered...easily. That surely is not right by me? Its cowardice for BOTH parties... The proof, the portfolio, the past successes that EXIST from those with credentials they rightfully earned and deserve and WHAT comes with that is also accountability if things go wrong. Willing to stamp your name on the plans, or just willing to deal with the consequences that are weakly given to them. Thats what is cowardice, the punishments are designed in favor of them to still win, if they follow "order" I dont like followers......fines are given and paid off willingly, they can afford a loss for their short term gain...blah blah of course it isnt WISE to only seek the those with JUST good credentials...you could have great credentials on paper, its not my problem who isnt getting the chance to contribute...Where are these people? I am not talking buiness money bs...its simpler. Is technology advancing or evolving?
Daydreaming is interesting in this somehow, ill be back. **I wonder if we in the act of Daydreaming vs in the act of Dreaming during sleep are multitasking differently? Similarly? Is that worth a mention or consideration in terms of consciousness and experiences had that one is aware of....memories? images? I wonder also, if the way we daydream may help/worsen the way we dream or vice versa?
Quoting Chet Hawkins Yeah and? How did they earn the title of "inventor" was that before or after the "dreams"?
Sounds like you have made an assumptions about dreams and inner life having some kind of important or sacred connection.
I've alwasy thought dreams were like a mental bowel movement. I guess it is important to be regular but I would not consider the content of dreams to be of much use to us, nor can they be readily interpreted. But humans, being meaning making creatures, have always gone in for this kind of thing, as though dreams can be read like a kind of text about our inner life and our external choices.
What have you learned about yourself or your life from a dream?
Is this question open to the public?
My answer would be: a lot! Several of my best art pieces were literally 'dreamed up' - though I admit that a couple of others I dreamed, I didn't have the skill to carry out. Two major emotional problems resolved - one of them a biggie that had haunted me for a decade. One obstacle identified; one inhibition overcome. Many warnings of potential and imminent difficulties, before I was consciously aware of the signs; several useful insights into the way I relate to the world.
I know one other person who experienced a major breakthrough - identifying a serious problem and discovering what they needed to do. And, of course, numerous instances of the answer to problem in computer programming, engineering design or scientific research coming to someone in a dream.
Of course. I was asking Jack mainly because I know of his fondness of Jung and Jung's work on dreams.
Your response is very interesting. We're all different. I dream a lot and I enjoy dreams, but from memory, I have never received an idea or learned a thing from a single dream I've had.
I would guess, because you don't pay attention to them. Perhaps you have a trouble-free life with few difficult challenges. It's also possible that you are more integrated; more in touch, consciously, with your emotions and imaginative machinery than most people, so that you don't need much prompting from the subconscious regions.
I do follow the psychoanalytic model but not just that of Freud or Jung, and their views were different from each other, but the general view that dreams are of such importance in the nature of mental processing of experience.
At one point, I kept a dream diary for about 6 months, which was not easy because dreams need to be written down as soon as possible, before they are forgotten. What I discovered in the process of paying attention to dreams by recording them was that my dream life took on form and patterns, which was useful for self awareness. However, dreams and their recall may be beyond conscious will. In particular, at one point, I did have Jungian analysis, and, what I experienced was that I stopped dreaming for a while, or being able to remember my dreams. It was as though my own subconscious was rebelling against an attempt at analysis and I began having dramas in waking life and my waking experience became the focus.
Of course, the idea of the conscious, unconscious and subconscious are open to philosophical speculation because there may be a continuum, including the depths of self consciousness and awareness in sleep. This may be where the layers of processing occur. One aspect which I am aware of recurring dreams. I do have some recurring dreams, and see these as being of significance for understanding aspects of my life which leave a lot of unresolved issues.
It could be problematic if people see dreams as 'real' as objective as opposed to psychological way. This may be particularly the case with borderline sleep experiences. Having had some disturbing experiences and images on the borderline of sleep, I can see that the danger is of inflating dreams beyond the scope of human imagination. This is where the possiblity of delusion and 'psychosis' creep in.
One way in which I see the nature of the imaginary world of dreams is a way of going through certain experiential adventures in an imaginary way rather than having to wait for the actual experiences in real life. It is about virtual possibilities. Some dreams may involve pleasure,and it may be saddening to wake up from these ones. In contrast, certain horrorific dreams may involve the processing of deep fears, especially nightmares.
Your mention of 'daydreaming' is important as being connected to the imaginary aspect of dreaming but different. Daydreams are chosen which is so different from those which arise spontaneously during sleep. Will and volition enter into daydreams, although it is possible to have intrusive negative fantasies while waking.
The issue of conscious control is of importance though and some people have the ability to be able to navigate such experiences in the form of lucid dreaming. This may be an art, involving awareness that one is dreaming and be almost akin to meditation.
Are you sure? You speak of volition but that is an illusion affected when the Subject "I" is "entailed." When you think, so-called "consciously," day dream or dream, these are the dynamics of autonomously moving Mind.
In "conscious" thinking--you do not first form the consciousness thought, "here is what I will now think about." Rather, something in the external world, the body, or Mind itself acted upon the Signifiers already stored and active in memory, to surface at such a moment as such a thought, and so on. If it was prompted by the thought, "here is what I will now...," what prompted that, if not my previous suggestion?
In daydreams, the same applies, something in the external world, the body, or Mind itself acted upon the Signifiers already stored and active in memory, etc.
In Dreams, the same Signifiers acting autonomously, flood the inner-image-ing sense (the Organic Source of these now autonomous renegade Signifiers) with the same types of Narratives as before, but now the Subject "I" (which is the Signifier purporting to stand-in for the Body, and is thusly confused as a "Self" embodied) is less directly entailed. The Narrative playing from memory in image-ing is more vague, less connected, harder to "believe," than it is in wakefulness. But it is no more and no less the autonomous construction of Narrative out of Signifiers.
Only in so called deep dreamless sleep, does the Body rest in its True Natural state, absent the Fictional chattering of Human Consciousness or Mind. Prior to the emergence/evolution of Mind as described, humans might see flashes of Images stored in memory--but without any Narrative at all. Tiger fangs, Lush fruit trees (stored for the animal human to have autonomously triggered flight or foraging) for example
The nature of volition in daydreaming may be more of a spectrum. It is possible to be extremely passive in the process or involved in an active way. This involves the extent of freedom in thinking itself and the processes of reflection. It may vary so much between individuals and at different times.
For example, I know that at some moments I seem to have more active control over my imagination than at other moments. Under stress, I find my negative imaginary fears seem to run wild. The bodlily processes may come into play and dreamless sleep may be important for thinking of the retreat of ego consciousness.
I am glad that you relate the nature of dreams to the creative processes, as the relevance of dream experiences may have been so essential. This goes back to the role of mythic understanding and the creation of art and science. It may be about intuition and moments of insight.
The surrealists incorporated the nature of dreams into their art work. Personally, I have attempted to draw images from my dream experiences but getting the details of the images correct in the aftermath is extremely difficult. This may be why people experiment or attempt to achieve altered states of consciousness. Dreams are a doorway into the imagination and the crossover between the right and left hemispheres of consciousness.
"I seem to have" I completely understand your point. However, to me, what makes daydreaming a spectrum (and similarly dreaming a seemingly obvious lack of volition, and wakefulness, a seemingly obvious predominance of volition) is that there is actually no volition, if by volition, we mean some inner being, i.e. you/I willfully thinking specific thoughts. That seems to happen eg. in wakefulness. But even when one thinks "I" am involved in an active way, there is no "I," no being at the center (or elsewhere) directing, willing, etc. the thoughts. There are only the thoughts and how those thoughts affect the Body, and the world, both Natural and Cultural.
When I find myself in a daydream, which I know you do not deny that happens (i.e. "finding myself") and then I think, "wait. I will not waste my time daydreaming, instead, I will reflect upon metaphysics or the structure/nature of Mind, that "change" in the Narrative was not prompted by some inner being at the helm. It, that successor thought, was also autonomously triggered by the movement of other Signifiers affecting it.
By the way, I noted in your post that you are inspired by Jung. Jung's archetypes emerge in dreams and conscious thoughts universally because they are some of those very foundational Signifiers input into memory by socialization, and surfacing from time to time when surrounding Signifiers prompt them.
I am still inclined to think that volition in daydreaming and fantasizing is possible as an aspect which can be developed. It is not simply about whether one goes on to theoretical metaphysical analysis, but about the way in which one approaches thoughts and images. In particular, moral ideas may come into play. For example, I was brought up to believe that malicious thoughts were to be avoided, so if I am having such fantasies I am likely to try to avoid indulgence of such fantasies.
However, it is not clearcut, as suggested by the way Jungian view of archetypes and their power. It is not possible to always push aside 'unwanted',thoughts and fantasies. To fight the dark thoughts and fantasies may make them stronger. My understanding of the images of gargoyles in churches was about the attempt to rid the mind of evil. The 'shadow' aspects of consciousness may have some kind of autonomy and to wrestle with the images may not always work. So, mindfulness may be involved in trying not to exercise the feared fantasies, but not being carried away with it.
After all, to fantasise or daydream is different from action in itself and the scope of fantasy and daydreams may be important in the choices of actions in life. A person may daydream with passivity or some active reflectivity. Both dreams and daydreams may provide a background for reflection upon choices of actions in daily life.
You were "brought up to... therefore..." I am suggesting that the "brought up to," has collected structures of Signifiers in your memory which autonomously surface/trigger others because of the ways and structures in which they have been input. Sure, it seems very much like you are choosing, because "I" is involved....
but I'm willing to move on. Your post is very interesting! Thank you
As I said, I enjoy dreams. So I do pay attention to them. And I tend to remember some of them. I just have no additional use for them. I cant imagine a situation I would be in where a dream would provide anything of use. I am not engaged in creative ventures or at a loss for solutions in life, so maybe its just down to being boring.
Ah to me when one speaks of credibility, one is referring to authority or some external organized viewpoint. It should be rather obvious if one is speaking in terms of personal credibility as in possibly believable.
Credibility in craft and works is tied directly to authority and even worse, 'public opinion'. Philosophy in general is not something that is credible at all in either sense. It has to appeal to its own internal and rarified structures to maintain credibility and EVEN THAT is still authority based. So, I fail to agree with your point here.
Quoting Kizzy
They are legion. But chaos does not lend itself to permanence. So they are often lost. Still, many have enough secondary order to get in and be heard. And their creativity and lack of limits allows them the scope to be truly visionary. So they make all the real progress at first.
But the progress of chaos is big hits mostly, and then order fills in the tedious details to make that hit work. So again, balance is the only real wisdom.
Quoting Kizzy
In general, yes.
That is to say, as a fact of day to day business, that is what works. Without said credentials one must then be the true wizard, the oddity, the real visionary. Some janitor or patent clerk can change the world, but then teams of ants hack out that work and refine it to make it useful. The grasshopper just sticks his tongue out and has fun with real discovery and musing.
Quoting Kizzy
Yes, and that is my point. More credible credentials. Please enter the first, second, and third passwords. Then touch your nose in the presence of a baby zebra. Then enter your 13 security questions. I'm sorry but if any of that fails, YOU ARE NOT YOU.
Quoting Kizzy
Well I can agree. Let's do that! But society as we know it would fall apart in less than a day on that basis.
Quoting Kizzy
It IS your problem that some whos from whoville are not getting to contribute. You have to be aware enough to think it through. If the whole world were some pseudo Communist Utopia where people pursued their own desires, MANY would pursue science and advancements. The world would gain such knowledge at such a pace that it would beggar the past as ridiculous. But many and most are too focused on survival. And some do not take tests well or lack the discipline to score well in a curriculum as they exist. But they are out there in the world contributing to their passion when someone will DEIGN to let them in.
I'm sorry mam, your word count has exceeded your license. You will have to apply in triplicate for a word count increase on the second Tuesday of the first quarter of each year. That is the only application window. That is our policy. We set policy. You comply. Since your post was tl:dr the entire post has been discarded. Post length policy was DULY posted for you to read. Ignorance of our stupidity is no excuse! Repeated offenses of this nature may result in fines or extrication from the site. Do not describe people! Describe spaces! I mean, ... REALLY!
Quoting Kizzy
Yes, technology is advancing. Everything is evolving. And evolution can have a negative weight also, devolution. Whip it good!
Quoting Kizzy
The pilot at the helm is different. The mechanism is similar to me. Tie the helmsman to the ship's steering wheel and let him sleep. Same thing.
Quoting Kizzy
I can say that my relative mastery of daydreaming DOES affect my dreaming. And vice versa. In some assisted states my daydreaming takes on a more dreamlike quality also, where meta background level concerns in my life explode into a mosaic of meaning and images. It is less fettered, but not unfettered exploration of the same intent space.
Quoting Kizzy
I mean of course, in general, after. They became lauded as inventors and then admitted humbly perhaps that the inspiration came to them in a dream.
By pay attention, I meant attach some significance to and try to identify the origin and meaning of the imagery. Treating dreams as entertainment - as a down-time activity for the mind to indulge in - is perfectly legitimate. Dreams have many functions in normal day-to-day living, which include fixing new knowledge in long-term memory, visualizing the day or task ahead, consolidating our comprehension of some area of thought and getting anxieties sorted and out of the way.
If we are unable to dream for an appreciable length of time, we face health issues that go beyond drowsiness and lack of focus.
If your dreams are more fun than informative, rather than 'boring', I would opt for well-integrated and well-adjusted. I can say from my own experience that, after resolving those long-standing issues, my dreams also turned happier, often enjoyable - though the creative and warning aspects persist.
Are you willing to prove your credibility? Are you willing to lose time in order to gain something greater than knowledge, feels that come with that cant be felt without time being a factor, restraint, or issue, or even thought about... momentarily non-existent. Lose time, find something else. What are you willing to lose time for understanding, if work makes this task impossible, it isnt the time for gaining this understanding, its not the time yet. When you find yourself engaging in something, where you lose track of time...that is what im talking about. That is a potential gold mine...keep following that thing, whatever it is. We know this though.
For me its people.......understanding people. I discredit my own self, [i am perceiving me how i present myself which is how i think others might perceive me and i give them what they are expecting sometimes though] but I would love to prove my credibility and can. If you could only more then see, watch!
Quoting Chet Hawkins
We all have a story, I wish all were credible as a source for your own.
That is why even the strangest of people should be credible in their own word, a source for themselves.
I am glad you mention authority too, its powerful I am not sure my brain is ready for my ramblings on power, authority freedom, and morality is tied all up in it, everywhere. "morality is EVERYTHING" you claimed and said before, I'm pretty sure. But i am not sure about that either, not important now.
When you "fail" to see my "non" point I'm fine with that, it is an honest and understandably common mistake. Not even a mistake, it almost feels natural sometimes. But I am not fine with the expressions you shared that put me, and possibly others in bad lighting (myproblem) for the hell of it...I dont want that happening for some odd reason (fixing it now)
I have many points I could make and it starts with the fact credibility is being dismissed it seems in the quote i referred to above. But the issue lies within you, I think. Is it an issue? Dont answer that here, you know the answer. You have a problem and is it a trust issue of sorts perhaps, with taking words or orders from? Authority? Others? How can you be so bothered.
But now i am thinking and that actually makes sense. If you dont clash well with authority perhaps its not CREDIBILITY itself. Yet why you use your feelings and words to share how valueless you feel about it ("whats it?" ask urself) Is that how it lives in your every day life, how its used, how you are familiar with its use? You portray your word, it in your every day life or experiences. The life you lead, steps you take, choices made. In your words, to me, it seems you are misplacing judgements on those in these positions that can have power and use it wrongly when they ARE NOT rightful deserving, fit, or reliable to be doing so...maybe they are just bad people. Its not ALL BAD though, cmon...Chet, ITS good.
Those who are (and arent) credible whether its in and of philosophy, of the public opinion, of authority why is "claiming" to be credible wrong??? Is it wrong for you, maybe but it is not wrong for there own sakes! I think your issue is an example of why it is to be considered like I originally intended... when its my point you are seeking to "understand" (i have my doubts thats intended by you from what is given back to me, feedback*) FEEDBACK is why public opinion, authority, and philosophy is credible, whos word are you trusting to accept and learn from?
YOU ARE ONLY AS VALUABLE AS YOUR SOURCE, or your friends/references who can vouch....
how credible is the source where your own words come from and to, then onto these nicely pained pictures from the written feelings to words built on pages you love to display to people, centerfold, more than the headlines or is that all you have to offer? Numbers are they just words? One Two Three...
Words are bigger than what they do or are...it is about who is placing value.
trust me i know it, im with you here
Quoting Chet Hawkins Boring haha Im kidding. I got ya, I see ya, I feel ya! A little dream is all ya need. Good night :yawn:
Funny I saw this right after saying "boring" to chet, ha! I mean no harm in it, but hmmm...The dreams of non-dreamers could be also interesting to compare to those dreaming dreamers...thoughts to wonder about.
"It" (what) does that? It does nothing, people do things and are things and can be them. That happens though, not my problem.
"too focused" I wouldnt even give that great effort and act "to focus" any credit where it isnt happening Focus is a skill one can polish to their liking...if they are too focused on surviving, I dont think that is really whats happening ...it is but no... its just what we all are doing. It just appears and also actually IS harder for some and vice versa. To say one should ought to want to put up a fight for others to be alive and tired is wild to me and I question if its any better than to let them be dead and well.
GONE but NEVER FORGOTTEN! Until it just is....
Quoting Chet Hawkins the "they" you are referring to is only the strong ones, you happen to see and believe exist and you are right they do..... but what about the others?
In general, yes, of course. And I do. I think a lot of my fear or issue is that the standard path, the 'regular' way never seems to work for me. It always has to be like the movie 'Sideways'. It's not really that 'bad', but my life and general recurring struggle has that flavor.
Quoting Kizzy
I am not quite sure what is being asked here. Gaining understanding is greater than just knowledge and that has been the central part of my sideways approach to things. I step into the bad and ask questions of the good. But that is normal and advisable, just maybe unusual. And getting older I am beginning to chafe at the same costs that used to be kind of nothing in the past. Time is getting a bit more precious.
Quoting Kizzy
I lose track of time in everything. Mostly, I feel ridiculously eternal. Time matters less to me than most people I think. I tend to be faster than needed, too fast, but the excess time gets put into goals no one else has, so, people ... or authority as bystanders go, 'Wow! Look at that! What is this strange fellow doing? It seems rather urgent??!!? Why does he add problems for himself and why does he keep talking about morality? We're only here to get a popsicle!
Quoting Kizzy
A typical me response to this would be, 'Yeah yeah and then gold futures plummet and your left with heavy garish rocks! Gold, ugh, great choice!'
Quoting Kizzy
What's the more? Smell? What sense is involved? And yeah, we talked about that. I too self-deprecate upon occassion.
Quoting Kizzy
Ha ha! All is credible to me. I accept all inputs. Perhaps it is I that needs the filter, but, truth is found in any and all experiences, even dreams.
I am critical of all sources, but accepting as well.
Quoting Kizzy
Yes, but 'they' call this affectation, not philosophy. The one-eyed man goes back to the asylum.
Quoting Kizzy
But, that's the point. It IS important, now and always. As the song says, 'Ramble on! I keep searchin for my baby, my my my my baby ... Yeah e yeah!'
Quoting Kizzy
I apologize. There is a harmonic in the symphony that I am not hearing or broadcasting right maybe. But, I suffer from the persistent delusion that I got it. {Warms up the singing voice, small animals flee}
Quoting Kizzy
Well, my admonishments are supposed to be growth oriented. It sounds as though I have overstepped. You never told me what your preferred lighting is. Exit stage left and I will add the rose gel back to the spotlight. I can surely help fix what I broke ... maybe. Unless it turns into the ever expanding hallway dream. Those are so tedious.
Quoting Kizzy
The 'know what's best' thing is my thing, apparently. But it's too ego-maniacal to assume authority although that is the role I am cast in it seems, and not just be me, but by fate, final authority, as opposed to worldly authority. I do hear a calling, even though its more like Hamlet talking to Yoric's skull.
Quoting Kizzy
I do not feel valueless, ever. That is a big part of the 'issue'. The pressures of the universe whisper 'valueless' in every ear, but my answer is side-eye and chuckle with a confident inner denial of that message. The messengers seem complicit. Shoot them! The real enemy seems too distant.
Quoting Kizzy
It's hilarious these days that I seem to have laziness levelled at me as an accusation when I am one of the least lazy people I know. My fretting at odd tasks and miseries is not understood, and so, the unaware deem it laziness. There is fear in it, that of not being seen properly, taken rightly, deemed worthy of true consideration. Then it's not the one-eyed man scenario, but instead the blind leading the blind. Roll out the cliche carpet.
Quoting Kizzy
I suppose I cast myself in the role of the GOOD often enough. I remain convinced that my interpretation is closer to fine despite seeking the source of the definitive (Indigo Girls). They were wrong! So many celebrate what is wrong and call me sideways. {Crab walks away in disgust}
Quoting Kizzy
It is not wrong I suppose in all cases. Some bridgebuilders build really great bridges. And I love when they are confident and claim to know what they are doing before I cross. I defend them in that act. But doubt remains a wise precaution in all cases. It's the amount of confidence per work unit that is the possible mismatch, not for me (opinion), but often for authority, yes. For 'things' to get better, authority must be overturned. Maybe that's me eating the fungus so I can berserk the right way to 'win'.
Quoting Kizzy
My friends and would be readers teach me all the time. It's never the point they were making, but something extra, Lagniappe, that really gets me to grow. Energy and enthusiasm amid a wacky attempt at something, and they tout their method and I see instead the use of the energy of action, of belief. How it surrounds them and makes their wacky into worthy. I can resonate with that. And yet I am left shaking my head at the wacky part and hoping they 'get it' without me having to point it out. Everyone just moves on. 'There are other worlds than this!' - Stephen King {The low men are out there}
Quoting Kizzy
Well my my! Don't I know this. And yet I take great umbrage. No! The truth is not this at all. Value is objective so no source but truth can matter. So if I chance to resonate truth better, then I am valuable and my message is as well, even if its pearls before swine which seems to be a recurring theme. You can't bribe the wolf pack not to eat you unless your currency is a handy duffle of raw deer meat. That's not common to have with.
Quoting Kizzy
It's a dreamy question. Am I resonating truth, a better way, or nonsense? It takes a lot of steps down the path to know. And this is the failed commitment of so many faiths. Investment in time and no end to the dream of life, but death. That casts rather a gloom over the evening and do not, repeat do not, eat the salmon mousse {Monty Python, The Meaning of Life}.
Quoting Kizzy
Yes, and we come full circle again to authority or public opinion. Run Away!
And as a war weary 8, I go to don my armor for battle and realize, oh, it's already on. I fight every battle. Everything is your problem. Denial is ... unfortunate.
Left alone on that front, the one-eyed man is coming every day to shoot the eternal chaos. The battle is so frequent and lonely that the armor must stay on. Belonging is believed, but only a dream.
Right but, its the distraction of MERE survival.
Forbes had a movie he put out maybe 15 years back. In it he was like 'My people do not consider a person as fully human unless they make over $400,000 per year. It was a great statement. He made in such a way that showed both that he was kind of realizing how deeply messed up that was and yet also that he was reluctantly forced to, or happy to just, acquiesce to it.
The bid for any system of equality of wealth per capita is a bid to deny that immoral sentiment. It is properly a bid to avoid mere survival. And the Utopian nightmare of thus far seen socialism and communism, bad resource management and production, must also of course be avoided. But the nature of humanity thus far only brings the two in tandem, good policy and bad implementation. We need good policy and good implementation. Moral action is not had from bribes. Even if there is success, it is a lie, a delusion. Even if it feeds millions. It is the One Ring of Sauron. 'I would use this ring from a desire to do good, but through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine!' Gandalf
Quoting Kizzy
I am a firm believer in the Unity Principle, although most people consider it esoteric and unattainable. It is basically 'You are me and am you.'
Quoting Kizzy
"Sunshine, ... people forget! It's an eminence front", just a put on, at least according to The Who.
Quoting Kizzy
No, the 'they' I refer to are not strong. They are fortunate, yes. That is not strength in and of itself. It is a delusion. But it does inhibit strength by its very fortune. Inertia towards what is average or bad must be overcome, yes, more is the pity.
Hopefully all that was not too dreamworld in styling. I tried to write a page in your book, instead of mine.
Ouch! Yeah, i see it now... Not quite there yet, ha ha! :smile: Enjoyable read nonetheless.