Should famous people conclude its more likely than not they are at the center of a simulation?
This is a question I thought of surrounding the problem of other minds (Given that I can only observe the behavior of others, how can I know that others have minds?)
Should someone who is very famous conclude they are likely the center of a simulation (In a simulation where there are few, if any other actual minds)? The question for this individual would be independent of whether or not this person is actually the center of a simulated world. The question is what they should conclude is most likely to be true.
Just for illustrative purposes, Ill assume Bill Gates is currently the most famous/highest name recognition person in the world. In a world made entirely of other conscious minds, probabilities apply (there would be roughly a 1 in 8 billion chance of becoming the most famous person in the world). If one is the center of a simulation (where they are the only or one of few conscious minds and others are essentially non playable characters), then the chance of becoming the most famous person in the world is unknown. Thus, it seems rational from Bills perspective to conclude he is not in the outcome that would require nearly insurmountable odds (1 in 8 billion) to be true.
I recognize theres the law of inevitability Someone must be the most famous person. I also recognize that if a world is in fact comprised of other minds, not famous people looking at Bill have no reason to think hes the center of a simulation. All the not famous people would have access to their own conscious experience. But for Bill Gates himself, considering the problem of other minds Should he conclude he is more than likely simulated That he became famous because hes the center of a simulation (as opposed to stumbling into an incredibly unlikely outcome). The question for Bill would be independent of whether or not he is actually the center of a simulated world. The question is what he should conclude is most likely to be true.
The answer may hinge around this - Should we conclude we have absolutely zero knowledge of why a simulator would create/simulate a mind? Or should we conclude we have little, yet likely a non-zero amount of knowledge about why a simulator would create/simulate a mind. One would derive this information from thinking about what type of person they would find it interesting/worthwhile to simulate. One could think about what they do simulating nonconscious characters in a video game. I havent played The Sims video games series since the early days, but I think in newer versions you can pick careers for your character. It seems like most people playing the game (including myself) would try to make their Sim character have an outlier outcome to make things more interesting. For example, they might have their Sim run for president of the country. This would be opposed to much more common outcomes- for example, simulating a middle-class accountant who is not famous.
Note I recognize there are an infinite number of outcome distributions one could look at. But being the most famous person in the world is what I would refer to as a seemingly intuitively significant outcome. As in it intuitively feels that being the most famous person in the world is more noteworthy than, for example, say, having the oldest living tree in the world in your yard.
Should someone who is very famous conclude they are likely the center of a simulation (In a simulation where there are few, if any other actual minds)? The question for this individual would be independent of whether or not this person is actually the center of a simulated world. The question is what they should conclude is most likely to be true.
Just for illustrative purposes, Ill assume Bill Gates is currently the most famous/highest name recognition person in the world. In a world made entirely of other conscious minds, probabilities apply (there would be roughly a 1 in 8 billion chance of becoming the most famous person in the world). If one is the center of a simulation (where they are the only or one of few conscious minds and others are essentially non playable characters), then the chance of becoming the most famous person in the world is unknown. Thus, it seems rational from Bills perspective to conclude he is not in the outcome that would require nearly insurmountable odds (1 in 8 billion) to be true.
I recognize theres the law of inevitability Someone must be the most famous person. I also recognize that if a world is in fact comprised of other minds, not famous people looking at Bill have no reason to think hes the center of a simulation. All the not famous people would have access to their own conscious experience. But for Bill Gates himself, considering the problem of other minds Should he conclude he is more than likely simulated That he became famous because hes the center of a simulation (as opposed to stumbling into an incredibly unlikely outcome). The question for Bill would be independent of whether or not he is actually the center of a simulated world. The question is what he should conclude is most likely to be true.
The answer may hinge around this - Should we conclude we have absolutely zero knowledge of why a simulator would create/simulate a mind? Or should we conclude we have little, yet likely a non-zero amount of knowledge about why a simulator would create/simulate a mind. One would derive this information from thinking about what type of person they would find it interesting/worthwhile to simulate. One could think about what they do simulating nonconscious characters in a video game. I havent played The Sims video games series since the early days, but I think in newer versions you can pick careers for your character. It seems like most people playing the game (including myself) would try to make their Sim character have an outlier outcome to make things more interesting. For example, they might have their Sim run for president of the country. This would be opposed to much more common outcomes- for example, simulating a middle-class accountant who is not famous.
Note I recognize there are an infinite number of outcome distributions one could look at. But being the most famous person in the world is what I would refer to as a seemingly intuitively significant outcome. As in it intuitively feels that being the most famous person in the world is more noteworthy than, for example, say, having the oldest living tree in the world in your yard.
Comments (14)
First of all, we only know what a mind or self or subject is in the first place because we already find ourselves immersed in a world that is outside. There are many spheres of outsideness. Our memories belong to the most intimate sphere of outsideness. our bodily sensations are a next closest sphere of the outside. A further outside comprise the inanimate objects we interact with, and the furthest outside belongs to intelligent creatures who behave i. ways that are unpredictable. If we have never encountered another mind, then we dont yet have a concept of ourselves as a mind . We may view our self instead in animistic terms.
But given that your question assumes that we understand the concept of a mind, determining that another has a mind involves distinguishing their behavior from that of an inanimate object or a programmed machine. is there any foolproof way of doing this? I would think not. All we have to go on is our pragmatic trial and error explorations of their unfolding responses to our interactions with them. And what are we looking for? I would assume here that what distinguishes a machine simulation from the behavior of a living system is that the actions of the former eventually form a predicable pattern. If we never reach the point in our dealings with an unknown entity where they cease to surprise us, then I would say that for all practical purposes we can say that they have a mind.
I'm very open to holes being poked in this being a relevant illustration but I often think of the core question of mine in terms of this scenario. Imagine someone said they shuffled a deck of cards numbered 1, 2, 3,...all the way up to 1 billion. You then draw a card from the top of the deck and get the card with number 1 on it. It seems like the person should assume something happened, it intuitively feels like getting card numbered 1 is significant. At the same time there was a 1 in 1 billion chance of getting any card. Should the person who draws card numbered 1 assume something is going on (someone forgot to shuffle the cards, someone is playing a joke on them, etc.)
The root of a simulation isn't meant to be easy to sum, so I would say we have not accumulated the knowledge required to understand why minds were created by a simulator.
Plus I don't really believe in a 'simulator', I believe in rational simulation. It is just an element of existence. It's almost as if it's all as it seems('real', or whatever) but there is logical simulation occuring(such as the mass of far away stars only 'load in' when we're close to them and from Earth they are simulated with miniscule mass).
Fame is not necessarily an indicator of center.
I had to look that word up. But there are worse threads on the frontpage right now, honestly.
Quoting Barkon
Fatuous schizophrenia.
Well, what am I supposed to accept.
People are non conscious?
All consc is the same?
This sounds absurd. You're likely the true schizophrenic.
What would be the appropriate conclusion if someone thinks there's just a slight chance that fame indicates one is the center of a simulation? There is a 7,999,999,999 in 8,000,000,000 chance a person would not be the most famous person in the world if they are not the center of a simulation (99.9999999875%). Would the most famous person have to be at least 99.9999999875% sure that fame is not an indicator of being at the center of a simulation? If they can't get to that confidence level (which seems inevitable), would they then have to accept it's more likely than not they are the center of a simulation?
I'm thinking there is a hole to poke in that logic but I can't pinpoint what it is.
I believe it was called "Royal madness" or "King's disease" where a ruler who seemingly has no struggle, challenge, or any of the normal hardhship or monotony that reminds us we are human begins to think one of the following:
- He's not real (whether he died or went to an after life where he is being rewarded or perhaps in some sort of coma or dream
- Nothing else is real (similar to the cases above, seeing as any item or experience that is known to exist can be presented to him nearly immediately without question, also by the fact a monarchs' Will becomes the highest Law, he might begin to notice things that exist only in his mind seeming to manifest in the world around him without his "saying" or "doing" leading one to believe in the possibility he is in fact in some sort of simulation, this is the most powerful of the "symptoms")
Not dissimilar to something like this:
[hide="Reveal"]
However to remind you as a valued newcomer of the rules of engagement one might call them, do check out this thread when you have a moment. Doing so ensures you make the most of your time here as well as that of others. Cheers. :smile:
I read through the rules of engagement after you shared the thread with me. Thanks for sending that. One of the things I could have done better is presented the question in a more interesting/relevant context. For instance, posting about the Doomsday Argument (The flavor that uses birth rank, not years the earth has existed) probably would have been more relevant, while asking a similar philosophical question (as the premise of the Doomsday Argument is that we should assume we are not in an outlier outcome).
Video : Nick Bostrom on Doomsday Argument (In respect to birth rank) https://closertotruth.com/video/bosni-006/
Lastly, I appreciate you being kind about the shortcomings of my post and still engaging with it.
Hopefully some of the context I've added has tightened up the question
Thanks!
No, but most will
This all begs the question: why make the person in the simulation famous? (assuming the creators have some control). I think it would probably be more useful to put the simulated mind in positions where they make important decisions, but are not necessarily famous, assuming that the creators of a hypothetical simulation want to learn something about the subject.