Changing the past in our imagination
Let's imagine that members of this forum can magically change the past. What would you change? Why would you change it? What changes would you implement?
I would prevent the existence of the universe (or universes if there is more than one) as that would prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. I would bring into existence an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings who always make perfect choices instead of fallible organisms such as ourselves who make mistakes, suffer and die.
I would prevent the existence of the universe (or universes if there is more than one) as that would prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. I would bring into existence an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings who always make perfect choices instead of fallible organisms such as ourselves who make mistakes, suffer and die.
Comments (103)
I love the idea.
But if there were two all-powerful beings, wouldnt the power of one be a limit on the power of the other, so that there were no all-powerful beings?
And if a being could only make the perfect choice, would there ever be any option or choice to make? Wouldnt that mean such beings had no reason to ever choose, as each choice was really just a seeking of the knowing the one way to act?
And if you didnt already know the right way to act, knowing the perfect choice (as when you pause to consider options), how can you say you are all-knowing?
But that said, people are so damn intolerant, willing to act unreasonably, self-centered, and just plain hurtful, its worth thinking about how to change this without losing the real circumstances that beg us to tolerate differences, to be patient enough to find reasonableness, to consider others before ourselves and seek to help others instead of hurt them.
I wouldnt change the world. If I could change myself, and we all could, this world could be good enough.
Quoting Fire Ologist
I could give each all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful being a unique omniverse with an infinite number of universes. I imagine this would prevent any conflicts between them.
Quoting Fire Ologist
I don't know. I am not all-knowing so it is impossible for me to know what that is like in practice.
Quoting Fire Ologist
I imagine an all-knowing being does not need to ponder which choice to make.
Quoting Fire Ologist
Why are people the way they are? I think it is because of their genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Our choices arise out of the dynamic interactions of our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. We are not free from these determinants.
Quoting Fire Ologist
You can change yourself. We all change as we age. We learn new skills, we learn from mistakes, etc.
How do you know that all of the universe is like our little shit hole corner of it?
Quoting Truth Seeker
Your god syndrome and alpha macho ego are definitely on show hare. :rofl:
I don't know. I didn't claim to be all-knowing. I am going by what I have observed on Earth.
Quoting Sir2u
I am merely exercising my imagination, nothing more.
I would tell myself not to read this OP.
( :wink: )
The bottom line is I pretty much like life as it is, but I would love to go back in history and change history, putting all of us on a different projector. Such as, what would happen if Abraham and his followers had never settled and remained nomadic herders? What if Athens had the power of Rome and Rome did not have military power? Or what if the Native Americans had been able to keep their land and the only way Europeans could live in America was to conform to the way of the Iroquois Confederacy? What if the US did not take Britain's side in WWI?
In part because of their stories. If we lived with Greek gods or a creator who didn't have favorites nor an evil counterpart, we would be different from people who believe there is only one god and that they can know the will of that god, who is always in favor of what they want. A god who expects them to kill for what they believe is rightly theirs. A god who justifies their wars with the belief it is the other who is evil and so it is God's will that be exterminated the others.
You would not say that if you had my genes, my environments from conception to the present, my nutrients from conception to the present, and my experiences from the womb to the present. I hate life the way it has been and is. The world has been and continues to be full of suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths.
I like life as it is because there is so much to change and we have the potential to make that change. Let us play with the understanding of God.
Christians carry the Greek understandings of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, and the trinity of God, Father Son, and Holy Ghost.
The Greeks began with Egyptian concepts of gods and the Egyptian trinity of our being. When we die one part of the trinity dies with the body. A second part of the trinity is judged and may or may not enter the good afterlife, depending on the weight of our hearts. :grin: We need to be light-hearted. The last part returns to the source, no matter what. Understanding Eastern thinking is very important to our understanding.
Chardin, a Catholic priest who was sent to China, learned from the East. He explained, "God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals, to know self in man." We are God's consciousness. We do not question the notion that we must have brains to think, but oddly we think a God can think without a brain. Of what could such a god think? We get this when we deified Jesus. Jews acknowledged our lives can not be known without the physical experience of being humans. What follows that understanding is a deified man. The big problem here is the need to stick with one god. To Constantine's horror, Christians started killing each other over the problem of the trinity being 3 gods or 1. In Latin, there was no word for a trinity of one God so they had to invent a word to explain the trinity of God before the Christians could stop killing each other.
The trinity of God externalizes God and the trinity of humans internalizes God. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
I know what I know because of a lifetime of seeking knowledge and in my old age, I realize most of our disagreements are about perspective. When we do not know a concept, we can not think about it. By trying to learn of God by attempting to know all beliefs, I have a very wide perspective. Whereas a Jew, Christian or Muslim will have a very small perspective. A few religious people attempt to know more than their holy book, but not the mass of religious humans.
Strange that you would destroy what could be trillions of millions of possible life forms based on what little you know about the earth.
Quoting Truth Seeker
But doing so after possibly killing off a lot of beings just like that without even knowing.
Quoting Truth Seeker
Misery loves its own company.
It is easy now to see why your imagination creates the scenes you describe above. You appear to be suffering from "The world fucked poor lil'ol me" syndrome. With a side of "Only I know what I am suffering" complex thrown in.
I have no idea about your life nor what you are suffering from, but I am willing to bet that I know people with even worse luck in the lottery of life. And some of them will never have the opportunity to go online to complain in a philosophy forum.
Most of us I believe spend some of our time here on earth wondering "what if". It is a wicked waste of time and torture to our brains. All it does is make us feel miserable about things we did wrong but cannot change.
I would not be destroying anything. I would be preventing. For something to be destroyed, it must first exist. You can't destroy something nonexistent.
Quoting Sir2u
Again, I am preventing the existence of those who suffer and die and instead creating those who are all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful so that they will never suffer and die. No one is being killed. By your logic, every sperm and every egg that does not become a baby is the same as a baby being killed. Should I arrest all the sperm producers and egg producers for preventing the existence of babies by not having sex without contraception constantly? Of course not.
I didn't ask to be born. I wish I never existed.
Quoting Sir2u
It is completely true that only I know what it is like to be me. No one else lives in my body. No one else has my genes, my environments from conception to the present, my nutrients from conception to the present, my experiences from the womb to the present. The same goes for all living things. Only you know what it is like to be you.
Quoting Sir2u
I have been suffering from CPTSD since 17 December 1982, Bipolar Disorder since 29 September 1997 and chronic nerve pain since 21 August 2008. I am on various medications but they are not very effective. I was kidnapped when I was 4 years and 5 months old. I almost died by drowning when I was 4 years and 9 months old. I was raped when I was 5 years and 9 months old. I watched people murder each other when I was 8 years old. I was beaten regularly by my Mum from my earliest memories (age 4) to 15 years old. I was beaten regularly at school by my teachers. Six of my relatives were murdered. My best friend was also murdered. When I was 9 years and 7 months old my younger brother died at the age of only 8 days due to doctor's errors. When I was 13 years and 8 months old my favourite uncle died due to an anaesthetist's error. My uncle was only 28 years old and had just gotten married. When I was 12 years and 10 months old, I experienced a cyclone that killed 138,866 people.
How would you calculate who has worse luck? I didn't claim to have had the worst luck. I have reviewed Earth's history. It is full of suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. 99.9% of all the species to evolve on Earth so far are already extinct and the remaining 0.1% will likely go extinct within the next 5 billion years. I think the luckiest are those who never existed.
Quoting Sir2u
I am not torturing my brain wondering about What If scenarios. I like exercising my imagination. I have saved and improved many lives by volunteering, donating blood, food, water, money, clothes, etc. and working in the health and social care sector. I have also saved and improved lives by going vegan 18 years ago. I am profoundly sad about the fact that all the lives I have saved and improved are temporary. Sooner or later, they are all going to suffer and die. I long to make all living things (including the dead ones and the never-born ones) forever happy but I can't. Making an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings and giving each of them an exclusive omniverse containing an infinite number of universes for free is my ideal world where there is no suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. It's a pity that I can't take it out of my imagination and make it real.
What does your ideal world look like? How would you prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths?
By not letting it exist you are destroying its potential, even if it is only in your head.
Quoting Truth Seeker
What right do you think you have to do this? Whether you believe in a godly creation or in evolution, suffering is a part of life.
Quoting Truth Seeker
Do you think that a bunch of god like creatures would not suffer? Have you no idea about the effects of boredom? Something that is all knowing has no motivation to learn nor experience new things. Something that is all powerful never knows a challenge.
What the hell would they do with their eternal lives?
Quoting Truth Seeker
So at a quick guess I would say that you are about 44 years old, live or lived in Bangladesh or India, have an extremely good memory and have had a lot of bad shit happen to you.
Whilst I admit that I have not experienced the personal abuse you were subjected to and are probably the reason you think as you do, I have not had an easy life either.
Without going into any really personal problems:
I have had several close friends that have died, in accidents, by sickness( three to COVID) or murdered. And also three by suicide.
I live in a country that was for years the most deadly country in the world, in a space of two blocks in each direction from my house we had a total of eight murders in less that six months.
I have experienced several hurricanes that might not have left as quite as many dead as the one you mention, but left wide spread and devastating damage to the place I live. I have experienced several severe earthquakes that have done serious damage to the place I live, one of which almost destroyed my home.
But after all of this, and knowing that many are suffering in this world, I do not think for even a minute that I would wish to to change the universe because I am pissed of with it.
I am so sorry for all your suffering and loss. Two of my friends with Bipolar Disorder took their own lives as the illness is so hard to live with. Many of my relatives have died from illnesses and accidents. This is not a competition on who has suffered more. Suffering is subjective so it is impossible to compare it. For example, I am in constant pain. I have a friend who is also in constant pain. How would we know whose pain is greater given the fact that only I can feel my pain and only he can feel his pain?
Quoting Sir2u
That's true but I am also creating an infinitely greater potential by creating an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings who each get an omniverse containing an infinite number of universes for free. It's like losing trillions of dollars to gain an infinite amount of dollars. So, the gain infinitely outweighs the loss.
Quoting Sir2u
I have more than a right, I have a duty to prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. If you had a Natural Disaster Preventing Machine would you not use it to prevent all cyclones, tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, droughts, landslides, etc.? I certainly would.
I want to prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths because these things are so awful. We live in a horrific and unjust world. I was born in Bangladesh and lived there most of my life. I don't understand why you would not want to prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. Surely, it is better to have beings who never suffer and die than beings who suffer and die? We all prevent the existence of babies by not having sex without contraceptives constantly. What right do we have to destroy the potential lives of billions of babies? Yet we are doing it every second. This is not even an imaginary event. This is actually happening every second all over the Earth.
Quoting Sir2u
All-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful beings would be able to keep themselves from being bored using their abilities. For example, I draw pictures, write stories and poems and play musical instruments, etc. I could do so much more if I were all-knowing and all-powerful. I would be able to draw an infinite number of pictures, write an infinite number of stories and poems and play an infinite number of musical instruments, etc. Why would something need to be challenging to be enjoyable? I enjoy lots of things that are not in the slightest challenging e.g. getting a massage or eating vegan ice-creams.
You didn't answer the questions I asked you in the previous post. Is that because you don't know the answers or don't want to answer my questions? In either case, I wish you all the best.
I did not give this information as a way to get sympathy or brag, but as an example that you are not alone in your suffering. I could go on about other problems I have, but I won't because I still consider myself to be a very lucky person compared to many others I know. I presume your motives for listing your woes were for similar purposes.
Quoting Truth Seeker
If these are the questions you refer to then I must have missed them.
Quoting Truth Seeker
Because I don't think that your small picture of the world is adequate to work on as we do not know the rest of the universe and there might be millions of the creatures you describe out there already, my ideal universe is a place where nature and her laws do what they are there to do.
If it takes millions or billions of years for nature to develop worlds that can be populated with the beings you so desire then millions or billions of years will have to pass. But it is doubtful that it will ever happen.
To create the beings you want, you would have to start with a fully formed universe that is the perfect place for them to live. Is a static universe even possible? It would have to be, or they would be forced to fight with the laws of nature and physics. It would be impossible for them to live on a world with anything but a perfect climate. Or would their all-powerfulness make it possible for them to sustain the lives of stars indefinitely?
Quoting Truth Seeker
I am pretty sure that if you ask most artists about the satisfaction they get from their drawings, musical instruments, poems and stories, they will say that it is from the creative part of the process that leads to the final attaining of the ability to do something well. All-knowing beings would miss out on that.
The other part of their satisfaction comes from the acceptance and happiness brought about in others reception/perception of their art, in a place where everyone can do just as good as you that would also not happen.
They would not even be able to paint the changing of the seasons or design clothes for each of them. I would not wish an eternity of that on my worst enemies.
I understand your motive. Thank you for sharing your experiences. I listed my experiences because, in your first reply to me, you said: "I have no idea about your life nor what you are suffering from, but I am willing to bet that I know people with even worse luck in the lottery of life." I asked you in my first reply to you: "How would you calculate who has worse luck?" I think you must not have noticed this question as you haven't answered it yet. I have had my share of both good and bad luck. Our lives have both positives and negatives. So far in my life, I have experienced more negatives than positives.
Thank you for answering my last two questions from my first reply to you. All-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings don't actually exist and will never actually exist. I am merely imagining such beings for fun. You are taking it far too seriously. This is a fictional scenario.
Quoting Sir2u
I accept your ideal universe. Do you accept my ideal reality which consists of an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings who each own an omniverse containing an infinite number of universes? To create these beings all I need to do is imagine them. We are talking about a fictional scenario. In my universes, I can make whatever I imagine as soon as I imagine them. This includes imaginary laws of physics and stars that burn forever.
Quoting Sir2u
I agree with you partially. All-knowing beings would miss out on the learning process, but they won't miss out on the enjoyment the acts of drawing, writing and playing musical instruments bring.
Quoting Sir2u
Just because someone else can do something as well as you can it does not mean that they can't enjoy your work and you can't enjoy creating and performing. I do improvised comedy with other people who are equally good at it. We enjoy each other's performances. The same goes for all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful creators and performers.
Quoting Sir2u
Yes, they would be able to paint the changing of the seasons and design clothes for each of them. They are all-knowing and all-powerful. Such tasks would pose no difficulty for them. In fact, no task would pose any difficulty for them - that's what makes it so great! Unlike you, I would love to be one of an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings who each own an omniverse containing an infinite number of universes. It's my idea of heaven!
You and I have very different ideas and that's totally fine. We are all products of our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences so it makes sense that we have very different ideas. I didn't ask you or anyone else to agree with me about anything. This thread is called "Changing the past in our imagination" because I posted it as an exercise for our imagination. It's supposed to be a fun thread where everyone can imagine whatever they want!
There is no answer to that question, that is why I did not answer it.
Quoting Truth Seeker
I am not taking seriously at all the scenes you paint. It is more than obvious that it is fictional. But the reasons you are giving for creating them should be taken seriously. I have found that, usually, the wilder the fantasy the more serious the cause.
Quoting Truth Seeker
Your fantasy reality is as good as any other of the same genre, but I would not try writing a book about it. And acceptance of your fantasy by me is of no consequence at all, if it makes you happy.
Personally, if I were to invent a universe because I did not like the one I was in, I would invent one that had solutions to the problems that were workable instead of making one where it is impossible for them to exist.
Quoting Truth Seeker
Things cannot be sooooo bad then, if you can find enjoyment in the little things. :wink:
Quoting Sir2u
Glad to hear it. The reason for my fantasy is that the world is full of suffering, inequality, injustice, and death. Inequality, injustice, and death have been around ever since life evolved on Earth 3.7 billion years ago. Suffering was added when sentient life evolved.
Quoting Sir2u
It sounds like you prefer hard science fiction to soft science fiction. I prefer soft science fiction because it is limitless.
Quoting Sir2u
My chronic pains (neuralgia and joint pains) are always there. My sciatica pain is intermittent. I get flashbacks most days, intrusive thoughts many times a day, and nightmares every time I sleep. My mood fluctuates frequently. I am depressed many more times than I am manic. Here is a mood scale I use to monitor myself:
+5: Total loss of judgement, exorbitant spending, religious delusions or hallucinations.
+4: Lost touch with reality, incoherent, no sleep, paranoid and vindictive, reckless behaviour.
+3: Inflated self-esteem, rapid thoughts and speech, counter-productive simultaneous tasks.
+2: Very productive, everything to excess, charming and talkative.
+1: Self-esteem good, optimistic, sociable and articulate, good decisions and get work done.
0: Mood in balance, no symptoms of depression or mania.
-1: Slight withdrawal from social situations, concentration less than usual, slight agitation.
-2: Feeling of panic and anxiety, concentration difficult and memory poor, some comfort in routine.
-3: Slow thinking, no appetite, need to be alone, sleep excessive or difficult, everything a struggle.
-4: Feeling of hopelessness and guilt, thoughts of suicide, little movement, impossible to do anything.
-5: Endless suicidal thoughts, no way out, no movement, everything is bleak and it will always be like this.
Right now I am at -1 but it will change. I was at -3 two days ago. I am on a mood roller coaster I can't get off. Words don't do Bipolar Disorder justice. Reading about what it is like is very different from experiencing it for many years. Things could be infinitely worse or infinitely better. I am most grateful that it is not infinitely worse.
I am sure the story of the creation of Adam and Eve should not be understood literally. It is most likely a plagiarized Sumerian story about a river that flooded and was dying until the Goddess causing him to die changed her mind and another goddess healed him. Then the river asked for help staying in its banks and a goddess used mud to create a man and woman and breathed life into them. Abraham and his people lived in the Sumerian city of Ur before starting their trek to Egypt.
I am sure the Biblical god is a tribal god and a story of a god leading people to promised land is not unique to the Hebrews. Believing a place is sacred is not unique to Hebrews. Believing people can be favored by a god is offensive and a false justification for wars.
I believe the universe follows laws that can not be broken and this fact does not depend on a god. Surely not a god that is like a human as Zeus and the God of Abraham are very human.
Fantasies are helpful in creating the future. What would have happened if there was no Renaissance? What if Martin Luther had not caused the loss of Catholic authority and a new way of seeing the Bible?
A huge benefit would be ending the Christian myth that we need a supernatural power to think and do good.
I am going to be giving classes on those topics next term, Could you send me the info the give you. :lol: Just joking about the info.
I think that you have touched upon a topic here that is current in society today when you ask if we can learn anything from the past. We can learn lots of things, but unfortunately much of the past that we need to learn from is being erased under the pretext of racism.
Quoting Athena
Fantasies are the base of future realities, but they must be based in reality to be of any use. As has been mentioned, I am a hard science fiction person.
The Renaissance was a long process that came about because of curiosity and the unwillingness of people to keep on blaming god for everything, not because of peoples fantasies.
If Martin Luther had not caused the loss of Catholic authority someone else would have, the situation was ripe for the things that happened. And there were already different ways of seeing the bible, the Jews and the Orthodox amongst others church disagreed with the Catholics on many things.
I want to work with what I am learning about the Renaissance and the Reformation so that I can gain a better understanding of it. Working with the topic of this thread, what would have happened if there had been no Black Plague in the autumn of 1347? Did that plague lead to the weakening of the Catholic church and the rise of Protestantism? What could have happened if the "Anabaptist dominion of Münster" had been allowed to continue?
Especially the "Anabaptist dominion of Münster" should appeal to @Truth Seeker wish for love and peace without government suppression. The anarchy following the weakening of Catholic power and control is a lesson for us, isn't it?
"God's law is 'right reason.' When perfectly understood it is called 'wisdom.' When applied by government in regulating human relations it is called 'justice." Cicero
I agree with your final statement, but we need to extend our desire for the good life to all people because we are in this swimming pool together and what one does affects another. :grimace: I grimace because while that is true, when it lacks the liberty of all, attempting to have the perfect world can be a terrible experience. The "Anabaptist dominion of Münster" and tyranny of Calvin and his followers began with good intentions and I am not sure all would have gone well even if they were allowed to continue.
Perfection demands balance and that makes imperfection possible but it is a whole lot better than tyranny. While we have negative qualities as you listed, I must argue your point because we also have so many good qualities. Circumstances can bring out the best in us or the worst in us. Again to agreeing with your final statement, I don't think anything could be better than what we have because we have not reached our full potential and if we don't exterminate ourselves we may achieve a better better. :grin:
The closet organization is in another state. There is nothing in the northwest of the US. I need to look into the organization very carefully because if it is what I am looking for I will contribute money and my time and energy. I would have to attract like minded people and develop an organization that is part of the larger organization. That would be a great way to use my Toastmistress training.
I think, I would like to devote myself to bringing Jerusalem under international control and an international historic site. And how about moving on to creating Athens as an international historic site, and what other places should be added to the international historic sites?
It might have had some effect on it but plain ordinary greed and corruption were the biggest problem with the church back then. Abbots with private armies and whore houses can be a kings worst enemy.
Quoting Athena
The only ones that really behaved themselves while the church had power were the poor peasants. And even they got to the point where enough was enough and revolted against the church.
Quoting Athena
I think the whole world should be one egalitarian country.
Yes and what is that enough, of which you speak?
Who started the peasants' rebellion? Might the trouble have begun with people with a degree of wealth and education who riled up the peasants? Might that rebellion have begun with Scholasticism?
Is transubstantiated bread and wine real? :chin:
And how is that organized?
Why would people want that?
How does an economy without money work?
Star Trek is a fantasy. On a ship, all things are provided by the shipping company. This was so for Star Trek and the three ships Columbus led across the ocean. However, when reaching the new planet there must be a means of exchange. Hopefully, this exchange is better than "Give me everything I want and we let you live".
All social animals organize themselves around a leader and family order. Under the sun we are the same, but in relation to each other, we are not. A technological society is not as ordered around family as we once were. In the past, the whole family could determine our opportunities, such as getting a job with the railways because one's father worked for the railway, or getting the job of dog father because your uncle is the major. Technology has changed that old order and the New World Order is based on individual abilities. Today we are specialized and our job depends on our merit. This is very so in Star Trek.
There are good and bad things about this New World Order. If you want to resolve problems you must first identify what the problems are and then what the solution is. Or we can just jump to assuming the world you imagine does exist. Why does anyone do anything? How do individuals gain the ability to do anything? What values do they learn and how do they learn them? What motivates them to do anything?
Don't you feel horrified and upset about all the suffering, inequality, injustice, and death in the world? 99.9% of all the species to evolve so far on Earth are already extinct. Surely, an egalitarian system would be far better than what we had in the past and what we currently have?
Quoting Athena
We do because we care about every sentient organism. How would you like it if you were boiled alive the way lobsters are boiled alive by non-vegans or are slaughtered like cows, chickens, ducks and pigs? Our empathy and compassion motivate us to live in a better way that minimises suffering, inequality, injustice, and death. Just look at the current statistics on inequality: https://inequality.org/facts/global-inequality We shouldn't keep the capitalist system that has produced such inequality and injustice. Did you know that companies have used and continue to use planned obsolescence in their products? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence This is what you get with the profit motive. This is why we need to remove the profit motive by changing the ownership of everything to everyone equally and banning money.
We could teach children at school about empathy and compassion and how to share what we have instead of cut-throat competition, cruelty and murder. In this egalitarian system, everyone would contribute according to their abilities and receive according to their needs. Children would develop skills based on their interests and aptitudes at schools that reward empathy and cooperation instead of competition, exploitation and backstabbing. They should be taught core values such as "Live and help live, live and love. Help all, harm none. One for all and all for one."
The people with a degree of wealth and education had the most to lose from it actually. They were at least responsible for the peasants being able to enact the revolt. Because the lords having were to busy fighting or partying the estates were left for the peasants to run. With the help of the church some of them learned to read and they found out how the legal system worked. They used this to their advantage to try and get things like servitude and land laws changed. Unfortunately there were too few of them and the lords killed all of the ringleaders after the king promised to look into making the changes.
Quoting Athena
Nope, it started well before Scholasticism reached maturity.
Quoting Athena
What has that got to do with the price of Polish cod? But I have no idea and I doubt you do either.
I love your post. I strongly disagree with you about the importance of Scholasticism, but everything else is moving in the right direction. Something that is not well known is HOW we think is as important as WHAT we think and Scholasticism taught people to think critically.
In our age of technology we are taking critical thinking for granted BUT by that I do not mean people are thinking critically. A conspiracy thinker thinks s/he is being rational but in fact they are not. They are NOT questioning the nutty ideas they believe. They are adding a new belief to the beliefs they have lived with for years and think they are being rational. What is important here is before Schalisticism people were not critical thinkers AND- :grin: I get so excited when a discussion is going well---
"Is transubstantiated bread and wine real?" Is a critical question!!! It demands questioning what is believed and it demands empirical information. Now believers believed, if it is said in the Bible that is the word of God. That doesn't really qualify as critical thinking, but no matter. The transubstantiated bread and wine are not in the Bible. :scream: It is a lie! Carrying around images of saints for their protection is also a superstitious lie.
We are dealing with superstition here and the power of the Church. If you believe the creation story, you also believe in heaven and that a person must be saved to get to heaven. How we handle our sins is vital to if we go to heaven or not, and if you are Catholic, the only way to heaven is through the Church and the Church has magic powers, such as turning bread and wine into the essence of Jesus himself. We are really talking about cannibalism here. Anyway, if you don't believe that superstitious stuff the Church is like "The King With No Clothes". Protestants thought science would reveal God as it already exposed the lie of needing the Church to go to heaven.
Through Scholasticism, people learned HOW to think. Martin Luther believed God decided who would be a master and who would be a slave/serf. That belief gave not only the Church power but also the King! When Protestants began questioning the social order that also put the whole organization of society into question!
For the modestly rich knight class, yes, they had the most to lose. Changes in the technology of war put them out of business so they depended on their land for an income and it was rumored the Catholics shouldn't even own land. Certainly not the lying Church. This was an opportunity for them to get more land and return to the higher standard of living they wanted. These educated people used their education for a war that would increase their wealth and no one would benefit more from the change in social order than the peasants.
Heck, many wives can't even get their husbands to help with housework and child care. I do not see egalitarianism coming any time soon. Also, I work a lot and I don't others willing to do that. I don't think a free ride brings out the best in people. A better society means every child is well cared for and has the advantages that enable him/her to be the best s/he can be. I am willing to focus on that, but that is not making people equal.
I see your point. In that case, how do we solve the problems of suffering, inequality, injustice, and death?
Thank you.
Could you tell me what language the video you posted uses, I am pretty sure that it is Hindi. And if there is an English version of it.
Quoting Athena
And your wrong. Plato and Socrates were wayyy ahead of those people. And the actual term "critical thinking" in education circles is credited to John Dewey in the early 1900's.
Quoting Athena
Do you really think that no one came up with any good ideas about anything until the Dark Ages?
Quoting Athena
Nope, they had a lot less that the dukes, counts or barons to which they were vassals.
Quoting Athena
Knight never owned land, just as their lords, baron or duke, did not own land. The land was owned by the king and he gave it or took as he saw fit. If someone failed to uphold their oath of loyalty to him, he would just take away the duchy or county. And lots of them had no idea how to run the land the were granted, because they were always away fighting the job fell to the peasants to do it themselves.
Quoting Athena
The churches actually had plenty of land that had been granted by the kings. Churches were very important in the Middle Ages. because of the churches blessings upon the warlord kings they became more powerful and gave great gifts to the church. There were abbeys and monasteries all over the place, and they even granted some of the land to others after an oath of loyalty had been given. Some abbeys even had their own armies and fought for the kings.
Quoting Athena
Some stayed in Europe after the wars with the French ended and became rich. But not all knights had a high standard of living to begin with. Some of them came from peasant families and were awarded the title because of some special service to their lord.
Quoting Athena
Which educated people are you referring to here? Because most knights were not very educated at all.
No big deal, just find a way so that everyone has the same as everyone else when it comes to resources, opportunities to work and develop, health care, security and a few other things.
Not going to happen until they actually build a device that can transform anything that is useless into something else that is useful. Can you imagine what the world would be like if you could put your garbage into the device and get a loaf of bread out or put a broken piece of an army tank in and get some medicine back. That would get rid of a lot of guns.
Hey, wait a minute. Don't they have one of those devices on the Enterprise?
Actually a lot of suffering and death could be avoided, except that no one really wants to foot the bill for it. There are mas reserves of vital grains and other food stocks around the world, but it costs a lot of money that the tax payers would bitch about to take it where it is needed.
It might not be that they do not want to share, it is just too damned expensive to move the stuff and no on wants to pay. :sad:
We can not end death and we may not want to. I have heard the gods think we are better off because we are not immortal. :chin: Perhaps we should start a thread asking why do we want life?
The other problems of suffering. inequality and injustice, are a matter of technology and education. I am sure if the people living 300 years ago saw what we can achieve today, they would be amazed by how far we come. For a better discussion, you might start a thread for each factor, one at a time.
That is not true!
We are biologically programmed to care about others. That comes with being a social animal.
Come on, people around the world are very involved with saving those suffering from famine and war.
What the hell is going on? A few hundred years ago people didn't name their children until they were 3 years old because they were not expected to live. Today most children in modern countries live at least 70 years. What we have accomplished and continue to accomplish is amazing and everyone is writing the Christain myth that humans are miserable, self-centered pieces of shit. Something is really wrong with this upside-down mentality. How do you all justify the denial of good and caring?
Good grief that was unexpected! Here it is in English.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqXVAo7dVRU
Did you look at https://www.anonymousforthevoiceless.org/kill-counter and https://inequality.org/facts/global-inequality ? We slaughter more sentient organisms than ever before. Global inequality keeps growing. The rich get richer and the poor die out.
Have you looked at https://inequality.org/facts/wealth-inequality ? I know that some billionaires are generous but most are not. If they were so generous from the beginning they wouldn't get to be billionaires in the first place.
I have to run. I really regret that and I hope I have the energy to get back to the forum this afternoon. However, at the moment, I think if we limit the discussion to humans it will be more comprehensive. But if you want to include animals I think that should cover all the animals that are nearing extinction because we have taken the land and natural resources that they must have to live.
To stay on topic you might pick a moment in history when animals were slaughtered and rewrite that history, telling us how the world would be better if our past had been better. We can do a lot with a discussion like that. :grin:
Yes, lots of little charities work to help, but what do they have to work with?
https://www.dlg.org/en/agriculture/topics/dlg-agrifuture-magazine/knowledge-skills/grain-reserves-in-the-hands-of-just-a-few-countries
If these countries would release the reserves they have a lot of suffering could be eliminated.
https://earth.org/countries-that-waste-the-most-food/
If these countries would do something about the amount of food they waste, that might have help to eliminate some suffering.
Yep, that is what I said. It is too expensive to send it there and most of the places where they excess food have no way to ship it.
It helps to view the video before linking to it, titles can be misleading
Ain't that the truth man.
We have indeed veered off-topic. So, I have created this new thread: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15216/how-can-we-reduce-suffering-inequality-injustice-and-death
If the world was a moral place place there would be no charities, they would not be needed.
This is not working. We are doing unimaginably better than in the past and can either agree with than or defend what appears to be your notion that great progress has not been made. How could you possibly know most billionaires are not generous? The answer to that question requires how you got that information. How can you know more about "them" than you know about me?
Oh really? and how is that organized? In the middle ages some Christian groups were strongly in favor of communism. Perhaps you are a reincarnated anabaptist?
From what I have read the attempt to have complete equality became anarchy with people leaving their doors unlocked and people having sex with anyone whenever they pleased. The objection is there isn't even family order and I do not believe the complete lack of social order would be viable. I also do not believe a leader is equal to a follower, a peasant is equal to a scientist. Complete equality is not viable.
Most of the humans who are currently alive are doing much better in terms of standards of living than most of the humans who were alive 10,000 or 5,000 or 2,000 or 1,000 or 500 or 250 or 100 or even 50 years ago. However, inequality is at its worst in terms of the disparity in the standards of living of the richest 0.001% compared with the poorest 0.001%.
I only know about billionaires what is publicly available. Please see: https://www.forbes.com/billionaires
I am quoting from:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/phoebeliu/2023/10/03/the-forbes-philanthropy-score-2023-how-charitable-are-the-richest-americans/
How can someone become a billionaire if they have been donating most of their income throughout their life? How could a human become even a millionaire (i.e. have USD 1,000,000 in their bank account and/or own assets of this value) if they donated most of their annual net income, never mind a billionaire? It's impossible.
I agree.
Wow, I wish everyone would acknowledge what I say by adding facts to what was said.:heart: It made want to read the link carefully. I am so pleased that the rich are getting richer because that means it is possible to increase wealth.
It would help to understand what are the rules for increasing wealth? What if charities learned the rules for increasing wealth and by using those rules they became wealthy and could do more? I seriously think government needs to take control of something like say the internet or AI and get its revenue that way instead of taxing people. The problem is not knowing how to increase wealth, but not knowing how to increase wealth. Our taxing system from the past and inappropriate for a high-tech society.
If you were struggling to keep your family alive as was so in 1820 as people moved west and struggled to survive on their homesteads, and knew nothing except what your church and neighbors told you, you would not be so unhappy about our failure to provide everyone with the good life. We are demanding more for everyone because we are accustomed to abundance. This is important because it means we need to change our thinking for a new reality. WHAT TO DO WE KNOW ABOUT ECONOMICS? Please, stop talking to me about rich people being greedy, and talk to me about economics and social organization. Your notion of people being greedy and not compassionate is myth. The big lie/myth is we need to be saved and we are not moral until we are saved. The truth is God was not a loving God until people's bellies were full. Around the world people of all faiths are very caring. The poor peasants are very willing to share a meal and be gracious host to the stranger. At least the geologist I have spoken with say that is so. Hawaiians didn't need Christianity to have beautiful spirits and a good culture. Many cultures put a high value on giving.
There is a thing called the internet, it can be used to find information. Let me repeat an example of what has already been stated.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/phoebeliu/2023/10/03/the-forbes-philanthropy-score-2023-how-charitable-are-the-richest-americans/?sh=39ab7cf9eccc
Quoting Athena
Maybe because we are not interested in finding out anything about you. Give us a clue to where you live or your name and I am sure we could come up with something though.
Quoting Athena
I will write this slowly to make it easier for you to understand.
If everyone was a moral person they would help everyone else, at least according to your idea of morality.
If everyone helped everyone else then no one would be needy.
If there were no needy people then charities would have no place in societies.
Quoting Athena
Seriously, if you do not want me to die laughing at that please provide some proof.
Actually you are probably just confused by the way the word communism is used in today's context as compared to how the early christians used it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism
Quoting Athena
I have absolutely no idea how that has anything to do with the discussion, May you would be kind enough to explain it to me. Did I by mistake mention or insinuate that people were equal in that post.
Perhaps you are not paying attention or have no idea what that even means. I am not even a christian.
[/quote]Defense spending by the United States accounted for nearly 40 percent of military expenditures by countries around the world in 2023, according to recently released figures from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI). U.S. defense spending increased by $55 billion from 2022 to 2023, in part due to additional military aid sent to support Ukraine in its ongoing conflict. The United States spends more on defense than the next nine countries combined. https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2024/04/the-united-states-spends-more-on-defense-than-the-next-9-countries-combined [/quote] There is a graph at this link saying the defense spending in $916 Billion.
The defense spending is quite a bit more than the foreign aid spending, but the foreign spending does not include the cost of dealing with immigrants. I don't like the wording of this next link but the facts are important.
So if we add $70 billion and $451 billion we get $521 billion and if we look at this as charity we can add another trillion to this.
Maybe that means more is spent on caring for other humans than is spent on military defense. Would we like to reduce that military spending by denying military support to our allies? Would that be cost effective? :grimace: I do not like giving Israel weapons but some of them a strictly defense preventing bombs from landing. Truly defensive weapons save lives and may prevent the use of destructive weapons. I don't think the choices are simple.
charities are by law in most countries non-profit, that means that they cannot make more money than they spend on giving away that money and expenses involved in doing so. But most churches are not bound by these laws, why are a lot of them so rich despite most of them having internal rules about humbleness.
Quoting Athena
Are you a reincarnated Marxist?
Quoting Athena
Say that again without repeating yourself.
The problem is, not knowing how to increase wealth, but not knowing how to increase wealth.
The problem is not, knowing how to increase wealth, but not knowing how to increase wealth.
Which did you mean?
Quoting Athena
How so, you earn money you pay taxes. What is the problem with that now that we live in a high tech world?
Quoting Athena
Silly generalization, I for one am not accustomed to abundance. I have what I need and I am try to save enough so that I can retire in the next few years. There is no abundance in the lives of the majority.
Quoting Athena
There are free course online that could help cure your ignorance, we are not here to do that.
Quoting Athena
Holy crapola, that is one bunch of rolled up blah blah blah.
First of all you need to be moral before you can be saved and go to heaven, at least that is what it says in the bible.
Second, god does not give a shit if people have full bellies or not. He gave mankind free will so it is their problem not his.
Third, please tell the terrorist groups that they are supposed to be caring so that they will stop using kids as bombs.
Lots of Hawaiians are christians, but a lot still follow the old beliefs. part of which is being nice.
I talk about myself in the forum all the time. I live in Oregon. USA. I am elderly and at the moment focusing on learning about the Renaissance and Reformation. I am low income and like to give money away when it is a free choice. Not so much when it is over $5,000 in car repairs for a car that in the Bluebook is worth $500. :lol:
That was disrespectful. Time for me to move on.
Okay I have read your links but I am not sure what your points are. Can you list them?
I only know about billionaires what is publicly available. Please see: https://www.forbes.com/billionaires
I am quoting from:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/phoebeliu/2023/10/03/the-forbes-philanthropy-score-2023-how-charitable-are-the-richest-americans/
How can someone become a billionaire if they have been donating most of their income throughout their life? How could a human become even a millionaire (i.e. have USD 1,000,000 in their bank account and/or own assets of this value) if they donated most of their annual net income, never mind a billionaire? It's impossible for people to become millionaires and billionaires if they have been charitable their entire lives. So, the billionaires who have donated billions were not always donating.
Why are we still talking about this in this thread when https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15216/how-can-we-reduce-suffering-inequality-injustice-and-death was created to discuss it?
Health and welfare is not charity, it is a state's obligation to its people that pay taxes and healthcare from their wages.
Quoting Athena
Military spending is different from military aid to other countries, but I would like to see the elimination of both. And they are not my allies either, I am not an American.
Quoting Athena
Eliminating both would be.
So you think all foreign aid is the same as charity, or at least that is how I interpret you post.
It is mostly tax payers money given to allies to keep them as allies, obviously given only in times of need.
Quoting Athena
Yep, you definitely need to learn how the economy works. The parts for older cars are more expansive and the work is usually more intensive because today's cars have all throw away parts that take minutes to replace. Get a second quote on it.
Quoting Athena
That is always the best way to avoid answering the questions. :wink:
That is an opinion. I have dealt with medical personnel who believe Medicaid is charity. The last time I went to the Social Security office the person I had to turn to for information considered Supplemental Security Income to be charity. And these people announce that in such a demeaning manner I want to crawl away and go hide in a hole.
Quoting Sir2u
So if a nation were bombing your country would still disapprove of the US providing weapons for defense? What can be done to end the threat of war and the expense of war?
Other people's opinions, such as the employees you mention, have no value. Just because of their ignorant and arrogant demeanor affects your personal self confidence doe not mean it has any value in this discussion either. It might make a topic for another thread, "The inherent airs of superiority of public employees" maybe.
Quoting Athena
If all military spending world wild there would be no on bombing my country would there, so yes I am still in favor of eliminating such spending
Quoting Athena
Maybe if people stopped voting for the idiots that approve the spending. People still believe that if they do not vote the other party will win, if no one at all votes because there are no adequate candidates then no one will win and they will have to re-think the political systems.
Eliminating the manufacturing of arms worldwide would help. But to be able to do that all of the people that want to fight, for pathetic reasons such as religion, would have to be re-educated.
I am strongly in favor of birth control practices. It really bothers me that our economies demand growth and that means we are building our city over more and more farmland! This is insane. Not all land is good farmland and we should be protecting it. We should also leave land and resources for the animals we share this planet with.
France kept its economy hampered with decisions that favored the wealthy. The Dutch developed such a good economy they could go into banking and make even more money.
Economics is a hard subject and perhaps it is one of the most important things for us to understand. The only thing I am confident of is focusing on opportunity gets better results, than focusing on needs.
This looks interesting
Kiva: Make a loan, change a life
But feeding people who go on to have children who will also be dependent on receiving food, increases the problem. We can not keep increasing the human population. We live on a finite planet and need to base our decisions on that.
Quoting Athena
We should certainly use contraceptives to keep our population at an optimum level for the Earth. I am not suggesting that we should be encouraging people to be freeloaders. I am suggesting collective equal ownership and contribution based on ability and receiving based on needs. I know a thirty-year-old autistic man who is still in nappies and is non-speaking. His condition severely limits what he can do. The Nazis would have executed him. I once met someone who believed in the ideology that if you can't defend your life you don't have the right to live. I believe that all living things have a right to life, not just the ones that can defend their lives. Vegan egalitarianism will reduce the amount of suffering, inequality, injustice, and death on Earth. It would be even better if we could genetically engineer all living things to be nonconsumers so that they can exist without consuming any air, water and food.
Did you checkout how much certain countries actually hold in reserve? And most grains can last decades in the correct conditions.
Oh my, I don't think a planet of nonconsumers is a good idea. On the other hand, one has to wonder what kind of human being would exterminate people with disabilities. Would you feel safe living next door to someone like that?
I think that is extremism and the many years of the Reformation were years of extremism. People wanted the best we could achieve, and that made them willing to kill of willing to risk their own lives. Perfectionism is dangerous. How might we avoid that?
Yes I read that link and promptly fell asleep. :lol: :cry: I have to use a machine to keep me breathing when I sleep and just this morning with Truth Seeker's prompting I discovered my machine is not working properly. Sorry everyone, I am out of order and not functioning properly.
I believe the link said wheat can be held for 8 years. I really doubt that would be healthy. I want my food fresh. I also see a need for holding food in reserve and with a population the size of China that has to be a huge challenge.
While there is concern for feeding everyone, I want to mention what they tell mothers on an airplane. When the oxygen masks fall put it on yourself so you have the ability to help the child. Self-sacrifice can be a very bad idea when that means being of no use to others.
That makes me think of a common thought exercise used in many college classes. There are 6 people on a life raft with enough provisions for 5. What do you do?
Nothing, I am not there.
BUT, they would only have to redistribute the provisions for six and would probably have to prepare to die a day earlier if not rescued.
What's wrong with organisms being nonconsumers? Surely, it is better to be able to live without consuming any air, water, food, sunlight, etc.?
Quoting Athena
The Nazis killed lots of disabled people. It's very sad but it happened.
Quoting Athena
No, I would not.
Quoting Athena
Cultivating empathy and compassion would help.
I think your replies are full of philosophical potential. I am listening to a professor who is very careful with defining words and as he defines life, if something is not consuming and reproducing it is not life. Processing energy is fundamental to life. If something is not doing that, it is not living.
Your reply to living next door to a killer certainly has philosophical potential.
Would it matter if it were a man or woman who caught a spouse cheating, or if the person killed in a war, or someone who killed another in the process of a robbery?
I really like holding concepts of empathy and compassion counteracting perfectionism and in its extreme killing people to purify society. We might expand on that thought. During the Middle Ages in different places at different times, one religious group killed another believing they were preparing earth for the second coming of Jesus. So your notion can have individual meaning or social meaning. I hope you have something profound to say about the importance of our words as we talk to ourselves and also as we share ideas with others.
When I did that exercise, I volunteered to leave the life boat. That response is directly related to the way I was raised. I was the oldest child and if my sister wanted I had and she wanted it, I was supposed to give it to her, because I was older. And if we were offered a piece of cake or cookie, we were to take the smallest one. It become a habit to put others first.
Another student responded in a better way. He got his seat in the life raft because he knew how to get water out of the air. I remember my WWII father believing individuals should make themselves too valuable to kill. He survived the war by being a medic. They are not put on the front line with a gun in their hands and told to walk into enemy fire. What insanity that is!
That depends on whether we are morally culpable or not. If hard determinism is true, no one is morally culpable and no one deserves any credit or blame for anything.
Like you, I was taught by my parents to be self-sacrificial. I have donated lots of blood, drinking water, food, clothes, money, etc. to save and improve the lives of others. I have volunteered thousands of hours since I was nine years old. If the universe ran according to my wishes, there would be no suffering, inequality, injustice, and death. We would all be equally all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful.
Our survival depends on how well we work together. Donating our energy, money, and even our blood is vital to a healthy society. Women were socialized to care for everyone, the young, old, and sick without charging for it. Men also give of themselves, such as getting a neighbor's car running without charging for it. This is not only the morally right thing to do, but one of the best ways to increase our happiness is to do something for others. But some people have no understanding of that. As life events change them they may wish they had done things differently.
Back to the OP, I think if there never was Judaism, Christianity, Islam or any other religion that makes God external, making us human beings instead of spiritual beings. What if we all believed we are spiritual beings in a spiritual reality?
Sorry for taking so long to reply. How I understand spiritual matters is in part is about understanding the Eygptians had a trinity of the soul. The first part of the trinity dies with the body. The second part of the trinity is judged and may or may not enter the good life in a heaven like place. The third part of the trinity always returns to the universal spirit. Like we are part of this dough separated like a biscut, and return to the spiritual dough we are made of. Christians separated us from this trinity and made the trinity, God, son, holy ghost. Making us mud that breaths, but not one with the spiritual reality of all living things.
Hum, that brings us an interesting question. As mud that breathes, how or what is all that sinfulness of humans? It is not the nature of mud to be sinful so what is it that makes us sinful? Why in heck are well-loved people so devoid of sin, and those born to suffer, prone to cruelness/sin? Like, :chin: can science give us a better understanding of our nature?
Is there a Christian who can give us a better understanding of sin?