How can we reduce suffering, inequality, injustice, and death?

Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 09:33 5725 views 38 comments
The world is full of suffering, inequality, injustice, and death. How can we reduce suffering, inequality, injustice, and death? Some references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

https://www.anonymousforthevoiceless.org/kill-counter

https://inequality.org/facts/global-inequality

https://inequality.org/facts/wealth-inequality

https://www.forbes.com/sites/phoebeliu/2023/10/03/the-forbes-philanthropy-score-2023-how-charitable-are-the-richest-americans

Comments (38)

Barkon May 19, 2024 at 09:43 #905047
Start with changing the financial system.

Everyone gets a type of benefit, and the incentive to work isn't just to 'get by', but rather to have a good time. Too much of the good life is restricted to those at the bottom, which exists in the current financial system, while those at the top are living the greater life with access to all the resources. It's not just the matter that they earned this life, it's that they earned it in the current financial system - it was sold to them this way.

In my opinion we need to delegate the good life to those who deserve it, and allow the poorer people access to good things.

Another thing is schooling - it shouldn't be so expensive - and it definitely shouldn't be a one chance thing.

Another thing, Gucci and other clothes brands technically owe something to the people for having the unfair ability to sell their clothing for super high prices.
Tom Storm May 19, 2024 at 09:48 #905048
Reply to Truth Seeker Too broad a question. One should consider too that all people do not see the same world, the same problems or anticipate the same solutions.

Probably best just to take one specific issue and then tailor a specific solution for it. Effective solutions tend to be culturally specific and co-designed by the people effected. What works in the USA would probably not work in Finland, say.

The great challenge is not identifying problems and proposing solutions, the problem is getting agreement robust enough to allow for implementation. This is why some of our more authoritarian brothers think that a benign dictatorship is the only answer.

Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 09:49 #905049
Reply to Barkon Thank you for your reply. I support free education. In fact, I support free everything. Let's ban money and let's ban private ownership. Let's have collective equal ownership of everything. The whole world should be one egalitarian and democratic country where religions are separate from the global government. Everyone should receive according to their needs and contribute according to their abilities.
Barkon May 19, 2024 at 09:51 #905050
Reply to Truth Seeker I like that but I think money is natural and we should just reform the system.

Currency may not reflect money truly enough, one person's work may be worth much much more.
Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 09:52 #905051
Reply to Tom Storm Quoting Tom Storm
Effective solutions tend to be culturally specific and co-designed by the people effected. What works in the USA would probably not work in Finland, say.


Surely, sharing would work everywhere?
Tom Storm May 19, 2024 at 09:54 #905052
Quoting Truth Seeker
Surely, sharing would work everywhere?


No.

Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 09:55 #905053
Reply to Barkon Quoting Barkon
I like that but I think money is natural and we should just reform the system.


Humans didn't always have money. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money Humans have been around 200,000 years and money has been around only 30,000 years. I think we can do without it if we have transparency and accountability so that people don't hoard more than their fair share of resources.
Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 09:56 #905054
Reply to Tom Storm Quoting Tom Storm
Surely, sharing would work everywhere?
— Truth Seeker

No.


Please explain why sharing wouldn't work everywhere in the universe.
Tom Storm May 19, 2024 at 09:56 #905055
Reply to Truth Seeker Sounds naive. What is sharing? Give me an example of how 'sharing' will be implemented and by whom and what problem it will address specifically?
Barkon May 19, 2024 at 09:56 #905056
Reply to Truth Seeker we have always attributed value to people's intelligence. What you mean is currency hasn't been around.
Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 09:58 #905057
Reply to Barkon Yes, by "money" I mean "currency". Is there a difference between money and currency? English is my second language so I may have missed any nuance between the two words.
Barkon May 19, 2024 at 09:59 #905059
Reply to Truth Seeker technically, currency is one of the ways money is expressed - like a physical points system. Simply gaining recognition is a type of money if it leads to your ability to gain something.
Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 10:00 #905060
Reply to Barkon I agree.
Barkon May 19, 2024 at 10:00 #905061
Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 10:01 #905062
Reply to Tom Storm We could calculate the total habitable land area on Earth and divide it by the number of humans and give each one an equal share of the habitable land. This would be an example of sharing. This would eliminate inequality in how much land each human have.
Tom Storm May 19, 2024 at 10:04 #905063
Reply to Truth Seeker Unrealistic. Who is going to support that? Who is going to give up their land?

Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 10:06 #905064
Reply to Tom Storm I will support it. I will give up my land to gain an equal share of the 15.77 billion acres of habitable land divided by 8.1 billion humans currently alive which is 1.95 acres per human.
Tom Storm May 19, 2024 at 10:07 #905065
Reply to Truth Seeker Do you have any land or do you live at home with your parents?
Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 10:10 #905066
Reply to Tom Storm I don't live with my parents.
Tom Storm May 19, 2024 at 10:23 #905067
Reply to Truth Seeker I think your view is amusing and it is hard to imagine that you are offering it as a serious solution.

Sharing is not exactly popular. It is antithetical to most forms of capitalism. You'd need to deliver such a policy with a gun.

I would not give up my land, nor would anyone I know. In fact, many would likely blow the heads off any motherfucker who comes for their property.

So how do you intend to govern such a process? How would you deal with those who would not surrender their land? How would you manage the wars and terrorism that would arise as a consequence?

How would you manage the world government of millions of displaced people who have to move around with their families so that they can get their plot of land? How would you manage the gaps in manufacturing industries all over the world, created by mass migrations of people?






Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 11:52 #905074
Reply to Tom Storm Quoting Tom Storm
So how do you intend to govern such a process? How would you deal with those who would not surrender their land? How would you manage the wars and terrorism that would arise as a consequence?

How would you manage the world government of millions of displaced people who have to move around with their families so that they can get their plot of land? How would you manage the gaps in manufacturing industries all over the world, created by mass migrations of people?


I can only ask people to share. I realise that those who have may not want to share with those who do not have. I am not going to do anything to those who don't surrender excess (i.e. greater than 1.95 acres) land. I can't implement my policy of sharing.

In the extremely unlikely event that everyone accepts my policy, to minimize disruption, we could make land ownership local to where one already is. So, if you are already living in Lagos, the global government will try to give you land in Lagos. I realise that this won't always be possible.

In my ideal world, all living things would be all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful and would own an infinite number of universes each. There would be no suffering, inequality, injustice, and death in my ideal world. Sadly, we don't live in my ideal world.
180 Proof May 19, 2024 at 17:39 #905142
Reply to Truth Seeker Assuming this political-economic 'diagnosis'

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/820342

the most feasible(?) prospects for 'treating the patient' (i.e. global civilization – beginning with the G-20, nation-state by nation-state), IMHO, maybe comes down to something like (in sum):
(A) economic democracy (supplimented by local time-banking networks)
[b]and/or
(B)[/b] more speculatively: AGI-managed post-scarcity, reputation-based demarchy.
Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 17:47 #905144
Reply to 180 Proof Thank you for your reply. Why would an Artificial General Intelligence care about living things?
180 Proof May 19, 2024 at 18:17 #905149
Quoting Truth Seeker
Why would an Artificial General Intelligence care about living things?

I don't assume it necessarily would. For my scenario to work, AGI wouldn't have "care" about anything but philanthropically optimizing the infrastructures, or functions of the systems, it automates. It remains to be seen, of course, whether or not we can or will train AGI – or whether or not AGI can or will learn from our example ( :yikes: ) – to be philanthropic.
Truth Seeker May 19, 2024 at 18:39 #905159
Reply to 180 Proof I understand. Thank you.
Outlander May 19, 2024 at 19:19 #905175
The old society had some good ideas. You would be permitted to have children if and only if you performed some legendary task of heroics or invented something society-changing or happened to be selected by random lottery. It was a privilege one earned voted on by those who proved their worth and intellect, not a right. If not, you were free to have a wonderful, dignified life, unless you broke the law, in which case you were banished to the wilderness, a de facto death sentence, but not always. It was going quite well actually. Until, through lack of foresight, enough of the banished managed to survive and became numerous enough to overthrow the ruling society. And here we are today. War, suffering, overpopulation, and all. Perhaps order will be restored someday. Until then, here are some, a bit more pragmatic, thoughts for your consideration:

Suffering, being a pronounced, elevated, and prolonged state of undesirable emotion or sensation? Many types of suffering are self-inflicted or otherwise easily-preventable. This would require removal of free will and personal autonomy in favor of government mandate over what a person can or cannot do and say. This would lead to more suffering, whether or not it ultimately reduces suffering writ-large. Other forms of preventable suffering, and biologically-related suffering (hunger, thirst, exposure to the elements, etc.) become equally as complex to solve. A scenario or thought experiment I like to go to that seems reliable is the "last man on Earth" scenario. What if, everybody, and everything other people invented, were to disappear, right now? No one to blame for anything, the world is literally yours and yours alone. Would you still not only eat by the sweat of your brow? Have dangers such as finding and maintaining shelter, avoiding predators, and sheltering from natural events or disasters, and even being entertained and not losing one's sanity? As you can see, it's not so simple. Sure as a result of the progress man and society has made, all efforts and struggles across the board should be lessened as in this case society is not the sum of its parts, but something far greater. Still, a world without suffering, is a world without personal choice and excitement, as if there is no risk for negative, there is no purpose or appreciation for the positive.

Inequality is another one. People will always be unequal in some way. There will always be someone stronger, someone smarter, someone happier than you, regardless of if we were all born with the same "starter class" as if beginning a new fantasy RPG. Because life is not an RPG, it's life. The cosmic role of the die decides whether or not we are born tall, short, strong, meek, or even disabled as well as into a rich or respected or large family or abandoned at a stranger's doorstep. That's why it's life. It goes back to the classic socio-economic questions: Should we cease rewarding people for being productive and ingenious and would this not weaken a society that does so where other societies that do not get ahead and advance in all ways, inevitably gaining the means and eventually rationale to overpower the former? Do we completely devalue the responsibilities of creating life to a "meh. I feel like having a kid today. Other people will take care of it so, I don't have anything else planned today, guess I'mma go do that now" attitude toward life itself leading to inevitable overpopulation? This would only increase suffering.

One man's punishment is another man's cruelty, and yet another man's mockery of justice. Goldilock's and the Three Bears, one bowl too hot, one bowl too cold, and but one just right. Some say punishment is too severe, some say it's not severe enough. If someone accidentally kills your child through no intent ie. drunk driving or firing a gun during New Years, you will likely opt for the severest punishment even if you discovered the perpetrator was suffering or perhaps experienced a similar loss whereas an outside observer especially one who never felt the same pain or is ineligible to (does not have a child) may wish to be more sympathetic as "it could happen to anyone and was a freak accident", etc. Even in a wholly fictional "perfect" utopian government and resulting system of justice with zero corruption, racial, social, or economic bias, something ran by an AI for example, it still can't be everywhere at once. Evidence can still be erroneous or erroneously produced (placing fingerprints or other evidence, or people flat-out lying in unison). So like most negatives in life they can only be greatly reduced, unlikely to be eliminated altogether. Such attempts to have done so only resulted in unfathomable amounts of suffering before ultimately leading nowhere.

Death is part of life. Health and safety is a factor. Again, requires government mandates and restriction. Should we imprison people found smoking or eating fast food more than 3 days a week in order to prolong their own life? Outlaw extreme sports or hobbies such as scuba diving, skiing, or mountain climbing? You see where it becomes difficult. Again, a world without suffering is a world without personal choice.
kindred May 20, 2024 at 02:15 #905381
Reply to Truth Seeker

I do not think it’s possible to minimise suffering on global or personal level.

Life is meant to be hard so there’s gonna be some suffering in it. However a lot of it is unnecessary suffering created by war mongers who bomb their fellow human beings.

We need to evolve beyond our apeish past achieve global enlightenment somehow and eliminate wars.

Other forms of suffering such as food scarcity could be reduced by population control though this is just as hard as stopping wars.
Truth Seeker May 20, 2024 at 18:59 #905561
Reply to Outlander Quoting Outlander
You would be permitted to have children if and only if you performed some legendary task of heroics or invented something society-changing or happened to be selected by random lottery. It was a privilege one earned voted on by those who proved their worth and intellect, not a right.


Thank you for your reply. Which society had the above rule?
Truth Seeker May 20, 2024 at 19:00 #905563
Reply to kindred Quoting kindred
I do not think it’s possible to minimise suffering on global or personal level.


I am sorry to hear that.
jkop May 20, 2024 at 21:52 #905600
Quoting Truth Seeker
How can we reduce suffering, inequality, injustice, and death?


Quoting kindred
I do not think it’s possible to minimise suffering on global or personal level.



Suffering is evidently reduced by medicine or psychology, inequality by distribution, injustice by justice, and death is reduced by healthy, peaceful living.

Truth Seeker May 20, 2024 at 22:37 #905614
Reply to jkop Quoting jkop
Suffering is evidently reduced by medicine or psychology, inequality by distribution, injustice by justice, and death is reduced by healthy, peaceful living.


I see your points. How do we ensure those who need the medical or psychological treatments get them? How do we distribute resources evenly amid so much inequality? How do we replace injustice with justice? How do we get people to live healthy and peaceful lives?
jkop May 21, 2024 at 11:06 #905737
Quoting Truth Seeker
How do we ensure those who need the medical or psychological treatments get them?


For example, by paying our taxes, voting, building and maintaining institutions for public health care and education.

Quoting Truth Seeker
How do we distribute resources evenly amid so much inequality?


Which resources? Many resources are unevenly distributed by nature, such as oil, gas, water, crops, knowledge, etc but we redistribute them more evenly by pipelines, vehicles, trade, education/research, adaptation, diversification etc.

Quoting Truth Seeker
How do we replace injustice with justice?


Justice doesn't replace injustice, it counteracts and reduces it. One easy way to reduce injustice is by not taking part in it, e.g. don't support bullies, unethical organizations etc

Quoting Truth Seeker
How do we get people to live healthy and peaceful lives?


By good examples, shared knowledge and opportunities.


Truth Seeker May 21, 2024 at 19:19 #905832
Reply to jkop Good ideas in principle, but in practice, these are difficult. I have seen much corruption that increases suffering, inequality, injustice, and death on Earth.
Fire Ologist May 22, 2024 at 22:49 #906068
Quoting Truth Seeker
In fact, I support free everything

Quoting Truth Seeker
Surely, sharing would work everywhere?

Quoting Truth Seeker
Let's ban money and let's ban private ownership.


This is a contradiction. If no one privately owns anything, no one is in a position to share anything.

If we make everything free, we need to take everything away from everyone first.

Once we share everything and ban private ownership, there will be no more sharing ever again. The idea of sharing would just become redistribution of equity - which is not sharing, just administration.
BC May 22, 2024 at 23:30 #906074
Quoting Truth Seeker
The world is full of suffering, inequality, injustice, and death


Last things first: death is unavoidable. Sooner or later we all die, along with every other living being.

Suffering: reducible but not eliminable.
Inequality: reducible but not eliminable.
Injustice: reducible but not eliminable.

Why? The world is an unsatisfactory place. Resources, population, good government, favorable weather/climate are unevenly distributed. The absence of tectonic events, disease, pestilence, war, famine, flood, drought, etc. are nice but just can't be counted on. We just never know where disaster will strike next.

There is not enough of the good stuff to go around (decent housing, plentiful food, clean water, good climate, nice weather, proper civil government, education, health care, and so on). The good stuff costs a lot of money (and labor) to produce and maintain. The more people there are in the world and the hotter the world gets, the more likely it is that there will be less to go around in the future.

We can do better, but even meeting a fairly low bar is difficult.

Despite all that, we might as well be upbeat and optimistic.
AmadeusD May 23, 2024 at 02:28 #906103
I don't particularly care to, personally.
Truth Seeker May 23, 2024 at 15:20 #906171
Reply to Fire Ologist At the moment, private ownership exists. I agree that if no one owned anything, no one would be in a position to share anything. I don't think those who own lots would agree to ban private ownership and ban money. That would take away their privileges and luxuries.
Truth Seeker May 23, 2024 at 15:22 #906172
Reply to BC I agree.