A sociological theory of mental illness

Abdul September 01, 2024 at 06:54 6625 views 55 comments
Today we live in a world of representations. Just take a look at any modern, developed city: big images, vivid and oversaturated colors, lots of advertising, instant gratification. A world of images mediated by people. It has reached such an apex that this has affected the real of the individual in such a way that he also becomes a representation for himself, an image, an abstract, and this is the fundamental basis of all psychoanalysis.
In psychoanalysis the person in the present, in the session, is an abstraction of the person in the past, all his feelings, thoughts and emotions are inductive, and so existence itself carries this thick layer of abstraction by which nothing is really felt or understood except as a relation of the notion he, the person, has of himself and the discrepancy between that and what he thinks he ought to realize.

In a sense, he is reduced to an abstraction that destroys at the root his sense of intuition and self-confidence and reduces him to the mere level of affects and deterministic behavior.

Thus, in a world mediated by images, he is reduced to the lowest level: an affect.

Most people are quite sane and therefore very capable and totally self-sufficient. But by increasing the distance between your intuition and your experience of the world, we destroy the tools you need to be self-sufficient.
Most people are healthy and therefore are not, as is commonly thought, a product of their past or of a mental condition that inhibits them from self-realization. The very idea of assuming oneself to be something that needs to be "fixed" or "corrected" is the disease of the modern world of abstractions.

What I find particularly interesting is the choice of language; words [...] have reached such a pernicious level of influence that they have no real or useful clinical meaning. We are all a bit narcissistic and lonely but not by virtue of our past, but by virtue of the collective. What does the invention of the automobile do for a society? It creates roads, highways, interstate travel, connects, yes, but also distance.

And it is precisely this distance (sociological and moral) that cuts people off at the knees. The addict is a victim of his addiction, but he is also fully responsible and knows it. Otherwise, he could have taken his own life, condemned to vice and mediocrity. But he does not do so, precisely because above the fear [of death] he still carries the core of hope, indispensable for every change and every nature of self-sufficiency. He is not a victim of vice, but of his own responsibility.

And it is precisely this weight that drags him to his pacifying behaviors, which we, for lack of empathy simply label as pathological. It is this vice that I detest so much that turns people into a means of psychological self-satisfaction and mental masturbation.

But this is a symptom of a much bigger problem; just as it is for the addict, so it is for society. The lack of religion has turned scientific progress into a cult, based not on empiricism, but on skepticism. That is to say: distrust. That is why it is indispensable for members of Alcoholics Anonymous to adopt the step of faith in a higher power. Most people are born into a lack of resilience, so this faith centers their spiritual energy outside themselves, that is, it is transcendental and frees them from the yoke of their immanence.

Precisely this very faith they place in Christ is an abstraction of the willpower they initially placed in themselves at the moment they came to their first encounter.

Their self-confidence has escaped the pressures of the will and has taken on a more sublimated form, free from necessity and precisely free from the world of images and abstractions to which their very human essence had been subjected.

What most people need, therefore, is not to be fixed, but to be understood. And it starts by attacking the very institutions of Freudianism and the very arrogance and vileness that stinks so much even in their own physiognomy. His attitude is a cancer to that people who struggle with real and palpable problems in the present and not in some distant fixed trauma of the past that if people knew about, would only be as strong as any other memory.

Comments (55)

I like sushi September 01, 2024 at 07:50 #929475
What is your theory? Are you a Christian Believer?
unenlightened September 01, 2024 at 08:30 #929479
Reply to Abdul I commend to you the writing of David Smail, and particularly his book "The Origins of Unhappiness".

Meanwhile, I will take issue with this.

Quoting Abdul
Most people are quite sane and therefore very capable and totally self-sufficient.


Most people are pretty fucked up and miserable, and no one at all is self sufficient. Just in order to communicate this message to you, for example, I require a whole army of assistants to nurse my infant self, teach me to read and write, put food on the table and a roof over my head and construct a communications network and this electronic device on which I am typing. None of this would I be remotely capable of doing on my own. Not to mention your own self that has been the provocation of my current thoughts.

Self-sufficiency is a dangerous fantasy, that is widely promoted, with false corollary that to fail to be (in the imagination) self sufficient is an illness and a loss of contact with reality.
ToothyMaw September 01, 2024 at 15:12 #929523
Reply to unenlightened

:100:

Agreed. But surely people exist on a spectrum of self-sufficiency, especially once they reach adulthood? I mean we could give "self-sufficiency" a stipulative definition of, say, "the degree to which one can currently maintain oneself absent outside aid", as opposed to the commonly held definition of total self-sufficiency? You would agree that the less aid you receive and the more you manage to sustain yourself independently, the more self-sufficient you are, right? Even if you are not totally self-sufficient?
Abdul September 01, 2024 at 18:33 #929574
Reply to I like sushi
I have no theory, I only propose that psychoanalysis has done more wrong for the average person and it shouldn't be a first place resource except for those who need it. People can overcome more things than they believe they can, but our market economy makes them a product or a means and not a participant of their own well-being.
Philosophim September 02, 2024 at 15:51 #929668
I like your points except the need for religion. I believe at this point in life that religion is a mental construct we use to deal with things in life that have no alternative solution. Just like "everyone thinks they're above average". Of course not everyone is above average, that's not how math works. But thinking that you are helps you make it through the world.

I do think religion can be very helpful to people, but not for this particular solution. As you noted, Quoting Abdul
words [...] have reached such a pernicious level of influence that they have no real or useful clinical meaning.


Exactly. I see it on social media and culture. "I have OCD". No you don't. OCD is a crippling compulsion that is in no way reasonable. Do you wash your hands 10 minutes every day on the dot to the point your hands are bleeding and raw? Then you don't have OCD. You have an attention to detail, order, and habit, which is part of the human spectrum.

The problem is medicalized terms that represent crippling deficiencies, have been relegated to personality differences that people are uncomfortable with. The psychology industry makes bank off of it, and well meaning psychologists are trying to make people's lives better. Being sad is not depression. Not moving from your bed for hours after you wake up is. Popular culture looks for what is wrong with us, when it should be celebrating our differences.

Compound this with a for-profit medicalized industry, and we're marketing pills to people who are quite healthy, have no problems working and taking care of themselves, but are sold a magic pill to "make life better". This especially hits the youth hard. You have teenagers dealing with normal stresses and fears and thinking its "anxiety". A diagnosis becomes an excuse for poor behavior that you could easily overcome. Its definitely a problem.

The psychology industry has people who understand this as well. They want psychology to emphasize less what is wrong with people, and more what is right. As long as there is money to be made however, and people are more willing to look for an excuse for what's wrong with them instead of accepting that life is going to have struggles you have to overcome yourself, I don't see it changing anytime soon.
unenlightened September 02, 2024 at 19:31 #929688
Quoting ToothyMaw
You would agree that the less aid you receive and the more you manage to sustain yourself independently, the more self-sufficient you are, right? Even if you are not totally self-sufficient?


Sure. If you don't use the roads, or the shops, or the internet, or oil products, or imports, etc, you can come close to self-sufficiency (neglecting your total dependence on the environment).

[quote=Karl Sagan] If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.[/quote]
Tom Storm September 02, 2024 at 20:33 #929690
Quoting Abdul
I have no theory, I only propose that psychoanalysis has done more wrong for the average person and it shouldn't be a first place resource except for those who need it.


Psychiatry isn't psychoanalysis. Psychoanalysis is a very old fashioned approach, practiced by a handful of boutique, middle-class therapists.

For the most part psychiatry is built around the client's needs, around robust diagnostic criteria.

Your concern is perhaps more about the wellness and psychology industries that are not generally connected to psychiatry and are closer to Oprah Winfrey than Freud.

Like religion, which says we are all sinners who need god to be saved, psychology can sometimes fall into the trap of saying we are all bungled and need insight through treatment.

This is a very complex field, full of great and some terrible work. The psychiatrists I have worked with over the past 30 years (in public mental health) generally dislike psychology and are not especially tolerant of the self-help industry. They would rather people develop their own skills and resilience than make them dependent upon theories or ongoing counselling.

Psychiatry is of course poorly understood and one of the great bogeymen of popular culture and many people are incapable of considering the subject rationally ( also like religion) There have been some spectacular examples of poor practice and oppression from some sections of the mental health community, as there have been in many professions.

Quoting Abdul
Most people are quite sane and therefore very capable and totally self-sufficient. But by increasing the distance between your intuition and your experience of the world, we destroy the tools you need to be self-sufficient.
Most people are healthy and therefore are not, as is commonly thought, a product of their past or of a mental condition that inhibits them from self-realization. The very idea of assuming oneself to be something that needs to be "fixed" or "corrected" is the disease of the modern world of abstractions


Most psychiatrists I have worked with would agree with you that most people do not require their help or any treatment.
180 Proof September 02, 2024 at 21:39 #929693
Quoting Tom Storm
Like religion, which says we are all sinners who need god to be saved, psychology can sometimes fall into the trap of saying we are all bungled and need insight through treatment.

:up: It seems to me, (Abrahamic / Dharmic) religions are just Bronze Age variations on psychoanalysis memorialized in Iron Age manuals and rituals.

Reply to Abdul
kindred September 02, 2024 at 22:00 #929695
Mental illnesses are diverse from schizophrenia to addictions and despite the progress of psychology remain largely misunderstood.

There are physiological differences between different brains and how they’re wired but at the same time all human beings deserve to be treated with dignity and respect and as such the choice of treatment whether it be therapy or medication should remain with the individual rather than the state unless of course such an individual has committed a crime in which case it’s up to the justice system to deal with.

Life is hard, no doubt and we all face different problems and challenges in our day to day lives and individuals have different capacities for handling the problems that life can present depending on the level of resilience each person posses they may sometimes need help from others.

I think disorders of the mind are purely cognitive rather than physiological because thought is intangible which means that modern medicine when it comes to treating such disorders largely fails as they mostly have a sedative effect and turn individuals into docile zombies rather than cure anything.

Quoting Tom Storm
For the most part psychiatry is built around the client's needs, around robust diagnostic criteria.


I think this is the main issue, diagnosis, which presents a problem because we cannot access the patients brain to see how they think but we infer from dialogue and observation which brings in an element of subjectivity and possibly bias.

Quoting Philosophim
The psychology industry has people who understand this as well. They want psychology to emphasize less what is wrong with people, and more what is right. As long as there is money to be made however, and people are more willing to look for an excuse for what's wrong with them instead of accepting that life is going to have struggles you have to overcome yourself, I don't see it changing anytime soon


The real issue with psychology is that it tries to treat non-organic problems organically that is through medication rather than other more reliable methods such as CBT for example. It makes too many assumptions about the workings of the brain by trying to simplify it. Mental health problems are not located in the brain but in how we think which is purely cognitive. In doing so psychiatry/psychology does more harm then good, neuroscience is in its infancy barely able to understand what gives rise to consciousness let alone provide any practical solutions to mental illnesses.

Im not sure whether having faith in God helps this matter but I don’t think human beings have the right to meddle with another human beings brain through well meaning medication because the way such medicines work is not by altering thought procceses at all but mostly alter brain chemistry via sedation.

On the issue of religion if it provides comfort and relief and strength to individuals experiencing mental unhealth then I’m all for it but on the flip side it can also cause damage if they don’t take responsibility for their actions.


Deleted User September 06, 2024 at 13:13 #930350
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Tom Storm September 06, 2024 at 13:49 #930359
Quoting tim wood
Spoken like a true kool-aid drinker


Quoting Tom Storm
many people are incapable of considering the subject rationally


Are you trying to make my point for me? :wink:

Quoting tim wood
If I pay for the services of a psychiatrist, what, mainly, can I expect to get?


Not the most useful question - rhetorical and disingenuous I assume, given the kool-aid smear? Wouldn't it depend upon your reason and the context for engaging a psychiatrist? If you are experiencing psychosis or delusions or bulimia, or suicidal ideation or acute paranoia or chronic addiction, or if you're trying to cope with a physical decline alongside a terminal illness, you might need one to help diagnose, treat and support the management of your issue.

Maybe you're more curious about psychiatrists in private practice who provide counselling or psychotherapy (analytic or otherwise) to wealthy neurotics? There's plenty of shit on the internet about that, good and bad.
Deleted User September 06, 2024 at 14:32 #930370
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unenlightened September 06, 2024 at 15:13 #930378
Quoting tim wood
Spoken like a true kool-aid drinker. Question: as you've worked with psychiatrists, you must know what they do: what, exactly, do psychiatrists do? If I pay for the services of a psychiatrist, what, mainly, can I expect to get?


You get, in most circumstances, "the medical model". This consists of a history, interpreted by the expert to form a diagnosis, followed by a recommendation of treatment.

The medical model is what this thread is questioning, and suggesting be replaced with a sociological model, such that mental distress arises from a person's relationships, to the environment and particularly to significant others and various 'authorities'. One of those relationships is that between the person and the psychiatrist. One can look at the power relations involved and consider what about the relationship might tend to confirm or disconfirm the person's feelings of distress - of, for random example, persecution.

Deleted User September 06, 2024 at 16:34 #930394
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unenlightened September 06, 2024 at 18:05 #930428
Quoting tim wood
presuppose that something is wrong, then attempts to find a fit in wrongness in the DSM-V. Finding it, then treats according to the finding and according to the theory-of-the-day about the finding.


There is definitely something wrong, that's not in dispute. The medical model is that there is something wrong with the patient; the social model is that there is something wrong between the person and their environment.
An example, Mr X goes to the doctor suffering from depression. says he hasn't been depressed before but the last year he's feeling down unmotivated. He used to be a skilled steel worker but he got laid off two years ago and hasn't been able to find a job. He feels useless, the house is about to be repossessed, his wife has left him. The social diagnosis is that he is suffering from a worldwide recession engineered by financial interests he has zero knowledge of, and what he needs is a new government. The doctor gives him sympathy and some happy pills.
Deleted User September 06, 2024 at 18:16 #930432
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Leontiskos September 06, 2024 at 19:00 #930441
Quoting unenlightened
The social diagnosis is that he is suffering from a worldwide recession engineered by financial interests he has zero knowledge of, and what he needs is a new government.


Founders of that tradition such as Alfred Adler would have a more nuanced take.

I think many people recognize that mental health cannot merely be reduced to a medical issue or a social issue or a psychological issue, etc. Nevertheless, paradigms for treatment remain necessary.
unenlightened September 06, 2024 at 19:10 #930445
Quoting tim wood
I invite consideration of that "between."


I'm willing to consider, but where do you want me to consider redirecting?

Quoting Leontiskos
a more nuanced take.


It's a hypothetical example - nuance is to be avoided in making the distinction between the personal psychological analysis and the social relations analysis. One can of course make use of both in the real world.

Leontiskos September 06, 2024 at 19:49 #930453
Quoting unenlightened
It's a hypothetical example - nuance is to be avoided in making the distinction between the personal psychological analysis and the social relations analysis.


I suppose my point is that social approaches to mental health need not be conspiracy theories. Describing social theories with the example of, "worldwide recession engineered by financial interests he has zero knowledge of," and the need of "a new government," makes it sound a lot like a conspiracy theory.

There is a lot going on in the OP. Probably too much. The social aspect is part of it, but not an especially large part.
Deleted User September 06, 2024 at 22:12 #930482
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Tom Storm September 06, 2024 at 22:17 #930483
Quoting tim wood
If I understand your answer, it is that a psychiatrist, encountering behavior, using the DSM-V or something like, makes a diagnosis - provides a label - and then.... And then what? I'm asking because I do not know.


So you left out that part of the answer in your summary -

Quoting Tom Storm
treat and support the management of your issue.


Your question probably should have been, 'what does treatment and support the management, look like?'

Quoting tim wood
provides a label


Seems a bit limited to say a diagnosis is reducing people's illness to just a label. Medicine works by identifying the correct diagnosis. Doing this saves lives. There's a big difference between bi-polar disorder and depression, or between schizophrenia and autism. Having expertise in mental illness and providing the right response, saves lives. Getting medication (the type as well as the dosage) right is critical. Linking people into psychosocial support is also critical. And when all this is done appropriately, it can lead to people's recovery and full participation in community. This is no small thing.

Quoting tim wood
the analogy with religion is telling.


And what does it tell you?

Quoting tim wood
To be sure, there are no doubt good men and women who are psychiatrists - the original goal to alleviate the suffering of those warehoused in 19th century mental hospitals - but generally, to be any good, they have to not do psychiatry. That leaves referrals, therapy, and prescribing drugs for counselors/therapists who cannot themselves prescribe.


I think you are getting closer with this answer. One of the psychiatrists I work with is 'doing psychiatry' to use your term and is overseeing the treatment of around 150 people who have psychotic illnesses. This involves the ongoing support of their patient - regular medication reviews, listening to feedback, tweaking and reducing mediation dosage, accepting people's decisions if they no longer want to take medication, supporting them with ongoing psychoeducation. Through this, most of the 150 have an enhanced quality of life.

But you'd be right if you said psychiatry isn't all they need. Psychiatry is always understood as being just a part of a person's recovery. They also need supportive friends, engagement with community, employment, meaning. And I would agree with those who say that community, connection with others and meaning often play a bigger role in people becoming well than just psychiatry.

No doubt there are shonky shrinks, just as there are dubious lawyers, doctors and plumbers. Are there some who abuse power? You bet. Are there some who are complacent and lazy? Yep. I am currently involved in lobbying to get some accountability from one local area mental health service, where the local psychiatrist and his team do too little too late.

Deleted User September 06, 2024 at 23:16 #930489
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Leontiskos September 06, 2024 at 23:47 #930498
Reply to tim wood - What exactly are you disputing? This?:

Quoting unenlightened
There is definitely something wrong, that's not in dispute.


Mental illness is surely a problem, no? And how do we approach it? Psychologically, sociologically, medicinally...? You may not like the psychiatric approach to mental illness, but what alternative would you propose? Do you at least admit that mental illness represents a societal problem?
Tom Storm September 07, 2024 at 00:01 #930503
Quoting tim wood
You might answer that a psychiatrist is a person who meeting certain licensure requirements and qualifications, is authorized to take responsibility for the care of mentally ill persons.


Partly right. But also has the appropriate qualifications and capacity to undertake diagnosis (which is far from straight forward) and the expertise to determine the best treatment plan and medication, which includes ongoing case reviews. They may also supervise and take clinical responsibility for the ongoing treatment provided by an entire department and review all cases. These are things that a nurse or a GP can do to some extent, but they lack expertise and will make more errors or hold erroneous assumptions. They are generalists and have gaps. I've seen that plenty of times. How do we determine, say, Korsakoff syndrome as opposed to Alzheimer's, or determine whether the person has drug induced psychoses or has schizoaffective disorder, etc. It's nuanced work. How do we treat the woman who is trying to cut the baby out of her stomach because she believes her fetus is the anti-Christ? (I've had variations of this twice) I'd rather a psychiatrist lead the treatment provision than a nurse. But a nurse will no doubt be required too. And probably police.

Quoting tim wood
That it is a matter of presuppositions and an unquestioning belief in those presuppositions.


I have not heard anyone with unquestioning beliefs in any presuppositions. I am critical of psychiatry and have been viewed as denunciatory pain in the arse many times in my community. I'm not here to suggest psychiatry is a panacea. Not everyone needs it. And there are multiple types of psychiatry (modalities) some useful, some not. And I am no expert on the subject, except for what I have seen work at first hand over many years. Essentially I made the point that psychiatry is poorly understood and demonized. No doubt there are self-styled countercultural hippy types, prancing around in the ruins of the 1960s "all-you-need-is-love" culture, who view psychiatry as a tool used by "the man" and Big Pharma to suppress dissent. We all know why that is and to some extent this has been a fair criticism in instances, but shouldn't be the only frame.

But just thinking on this now - even if there were other occupations who can sometimes do a similar job to a psychiatrist (whatever that might look like) so what? There are people, other than philosophers who can do philosophy. This doesn't mean that philosophy as an academic profession is worthless, or does nothing. There are people other than mechanics who can service my car and maintain it. Does that make mechanics superfluous? I think expertise and credentialing remain important, and we generally opt for expertise where the stakes are higher, but this is the era of denigrating expertise, so there is that. I think it's fine to be skeptical of expertise, but I know where I draw the line. Others may draw the line differently.




Tom Storm September 07, 2024 at 00:12 #930505
Quoting Leontiskos
There is a lot going on in the OP. Probably too much.


That's for sure.

Quoting Leontiskos
Mental illness is surely a problem, no? And how do we approach it? Psychologically, sociologically, medicinally...? You may not like the psychiatric approach to mental illness, but what alternative would you propose?


Yes, I think this summaries the matter appropriately.

In some instances there may well be alternatives for the psychiatric approach. Many psychiatrists would be the first to say this. And this can mislead people, if they focus just on some alternatives and overlook the thorny end of metal ill health, which does appear to require medical and psychiatric intervention, not just an accepting buddy or a generic counsellor.
Deleted User September 07, 2024 at 00:21 #930507
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Deleted User September 07, 2024 at 00:24 #930509
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Leontiskos September 07, 2024 at 00:32 #930513
Quoting tim wood
Psychiatric treatment is model or theory based, which may not work for a particular patient, and may even be just plain wrong for a particular patient


Sure, but this is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Psychiatry could be the Devil himself, but even so the whole system would collapse without it. So we'll need to keep the devil around until we can figure out how to do without him. Cutting off his head will only make things worse.

Quoting Leontiskos
You may not like the psychiatric approach to mental illness, but what alternative would you propose?


Quoting tim wood
it seems to me the best treatment is holistic in approach, providing what is needed: drugs if needed; counseling/therapeutic/custodial support as needed, and likely a mix.


Okay, so you think psychiatry is too narrow of an intervention. I don't find that controversial, but I'm not sure we want the thread to devolve into an argument over psychiatry. The larger picture must be kept in mind, which is abductive. Churchill's saying about democracy could be adapted for psychiatry. If one wants to oppose psychiatry then the true task is to offer a better alternative, not to just bash psychiatry.
Tom Storm September 07, 2024 at 00:38 #930514
Quoting tim wood
At the risk of becoming tedious, what exactly is "psychiatric intervention"; that is, that distinguishes itself as psychiatric?


A psychiatric intervention is where a mental illness is suspected and then assessed and diagnosed and provided with treatment options under the clinal care and recommendations of a psychiatrist.

But I'm happy to move on. We obviously hold differing frames.


Quoting tim wood
it seems to me the best treatment is holistic in approach, providing what is needed: drugs if needed; counseling/therapeutic/custodial support as needed, and likely a mix.


Yes, most psychiatrists would completely agree with this.
unenlightened September 07, 2024 at 08:33 #930521
Quoting tim wood
I imagine you can follow through the implications of the question. It comes from a book about Heidegger's Being and Time.


You don't seem willing to entertain a social analysis, and at the same time seem reluctant to actually say what you mean. *shrug*

Quoting Leontiskos
I suppose my point is that social approaches to mental health need not be conspiracy theories.


It's an example. What it illustrates is that one's social condition and thereby one's psychological condition can be - as David Smail puts it - strongly affected by events beyond the individual's event horizon. One tends to take things like job loss to be personal failings rather than socio-economic adjustments or as you choose to call them 'conspiracy theories.'

One might ask the medical modellers, for example, why there seems at the moment to be something of a plague of paranoia and conspiracy theories. It's hard to see how 'chemicals in the brain' can be infectious (apart from prions of course).
Deleted User September 07, 2024 at 14:24 #930542
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Leontiskos September 08, 2024 at 00:58 #930630
Quoting tim wood
psychiatrists by comparison are more in the way of witch doctors


They are the priestly caste, and the priestly caste is always taken seriously both by others and by themselves, in part because their function within society is seen to be so important. And of course it cannot be denied that it is important.
Deleted User September 08, 2024 at 04:37 #930649
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Tom Storm September 08, 2024 at 10:07 #930672
Quoting tim wood
psychiatrists by comparison are more in the way of witch doctors


This is a pretty conventional view these days and was a thesis articulated rather well by a famous psychiatrist called E Fuller Tory in his 1980's best seller Witchdoctors and Psychiatrists: The Common Roots of Psycotherapy and it's Future. Like most good psychiatrists, Fuller Tory was critical of many aspects of psychiatry, just as many good philosophers are critical of aspects of philosophy.
unenlightened September 08, 2024 at 10:54 #930678
Quoting tim wood
My take on psychiatry, in sum, is that while most doctors are akin to mechanics in the sense of dealing with the more-or-less, and mostly more, known, psychiatrists by comparison are more in the way of witch doctors.


We agree thus far at least, so I might be able to convince you to consider that the medical model may be somewhat at fault. Witch doctors have a rather similar model, in which 'evil spirits' play the role of 'chemicals in the brain'. One of the difficulties of the medical model is the way pathologies change over time. Anorexia and self-harm, for instance are modern epidemics, and in the complete absence of any physical explanation for such novelties, social change should surely be considered as a possible explanation? At which point one can ask "how does your society fuck you up, and what are your coping strategies/self-medication?" to psychiatrists and their clients even handedly,
Tom Storm September 08, 2024 at 11:40 #930686
Quoting unenlightened
At which point one can ask "how does your society fuck you up, and what are your coping strategies/self-medication?"


In my experience that is actually the starting point for most assessments. The conventional wisdom is that self harm and substance misuse are adaptive behaviours and the best resolutions are not found in medication, but in meaning. Hence the emphasis on the psychosocial.
Deleted User September 08, 2024 at 16:22 #930725
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Deleted User September 08, 2024 at 17:11 #930732
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unenlightened September 08, 2024 at 19:26 #930790
Quoting Tom Storm
the best resolutions are not found in medication, but in meaning. Hence the emphasis on the psychosocial.


Yes, but always psychological reform, never social reform, because ... actually, the medical model still informs the social structure that is psychiatry - one goes to the doctor, not the politician/lawyer.
Tom Storm September 08, 2024 at 20:25 #930800
Reply to tim wood You'd have to read the book or get a good summary. It's a long and deep study. But if you are going to say this.

Quoting tim wood
My criticism being of those who represent the "witchcraft" as knowledge.


Then you seem to be arguing that psychiatry is not knowledge. I guess there's not much to discuss then.

Quoting unenlightened
Yes, but always psychological reform, never social reform, because ... actually, the medical model still informs the social structure that is psychiatry - one goes to the doctor, not the politician/lawyer.


We weren't talking about reform but as you raised it I don't think this is right either. It doesn't describe what happens here. Reform to mental health system is generally led by people outside of medical services, by those with lived experience, by relatives, by lawyers, by community workers and by politicians. And when mental health unit workers meets a potential patient for the first time, the overarching view is ususally how can they keep people out of the system and away from the need for medication. Your question - Quoting unenlightened
"how does your society fuck you up, and what are your coping strategies/self-medication?"
is to some extent the one which informs them.

Deleted User September 08, 2024 at 20:56 #930807
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Tom Storm September 08, 2024 at 23:02 #930850
Quoting tim wood
My own best guess for an answer is that they know about behaviors - they have observed them. And have made observations that are essentially statistical in nature - no doubt it's not quite that simple - thus being able to make "educated" guesses by looking at the data. Not to be confused with knowledge. And not a criticism but a critique; that is, a fact, or so I think.


I think I have mostly answered this already, but essentially a psychiatrist is a medical doctor with further specialist knowledge - so has all the knowledge of a GP and additionally has expert knowledge of mental illness and can conduct a differential diagnosis (what may be organic and what may be psychological in origin) and can conduct assessments, provide diagnosis, develop treatment plans, provide pharmacotherapy, and counselling. All of these are extremely specialized and intricate matters.

Quoting tim wood
For psychiatry, the ability to make knowledge-based categorical statements a luxury they usually do not enjoy.


I would say that is a limited lens - bi-polar disorder, schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia, depression, etc, are fairly clear situations that can be described clearly and do respond to treatment, almost as well as diabetes can be managed by insulin.

I would agree that psychiatry is still in its infancy and that mental health treatment still has a long way to go in its development.

Personally I have provided testimony to several tribunals arguing that particular psychiatrists and hospitals have made mistakes and that the mental health system is deeply flawed and requires reform.

Quoting tim wood
Ask a psychiatrist c. 1970 about a hebephrenic or a homosexual, and he will say they're sick. Except that in 2024 hebephrenia is not a thing and homosexuality not a sickness. And while that's a half-century ago, I don't think psychiatry has refined its understandings to qualify as knowledge.


A few observations - in 1970 many psychiatrists were also reformers and challenged all kinds of notions of what qualified as 'sickness'. Psychiatry, like most disciplines, has had many reformers from within, contributing to many changes. In fact, the anti-psychiatry movement of the 1960's was led by psychiatrists. In 1970 there were psychiatrists who did not think homosexuality was an illness. Many psychiatrists I've known think that the DSM manual is inflexible and flawed.

To argue that because positions change and therefore psychiatry does not hold knowledge seems to be like the religious fundamentalists who say that science is bunk because science changes its paradigms over time.

Anyway, I'm going to leave this one here since there is no end to a debate like this and it's not really my role to defend psychiatry, which is an imperfect and evolving profession - and I am no expert. I simply know from decades of personal experince that psychiatrists can work scrupulously to provide extremely helpful life saving interventions for people. The profession is generally demonized and poorly understood. Which was my original observation.
I like sushi September 09, 2024 at 08:25 #930920
Reply to Abdul It is better that seeking psychiatric help! Anything that comes before medication should be recommended.

In today's world many people do not have the social outlets they need to confront personal issues. Forms of basic therapy are more or less a means of mental maintenance than treatments of disorders.

All that said simply not using social media so much would help SO many people out - especially teenagers!
wonderer1 September 09, 2024 at 09:38 #930928
Quoting Tom Storm
To argue that because positions change and therefore psychiatry does not hold knowledge seems to be like the religious fundamentalists who say that science is bunk because science changes its paradigms over time.

Anyway, I'm going to leave this one here since there is no end to a debate like this and it's not really my role to defend psychiatry, which is an imperfect and evolving profession - and I am no expert. I simply know from decades of personal experince that psychiatrists can work scrupulously to provide extremely helpful life saving interventions for people. The profession is generally demonized and poorly understood. Which was my original observation.


:up:
Deleted User September 09, 2024 at 17:57 #931016
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Joshs September 09, 2024 at 18:27 #931019
Reply to tim wood
Quoting tim wood
The failure of any claim to knowledge is not just an "Oops" moment. Rather instead it is an indictment of the work that led to the claim and the system that supports the work. If nothing else, the evidence that psychiatry still needs work would be its still claiming knowledge it does not have, to the degree it still does so. My guess is that most professionals in their personal practices have taken the historical lesson and try not to make such claims.

The same observations you’re making concerning psychiatry could be made with respect to philosophy. The only difference is that most philosophers don’t claim to be doing science. Underlying your analysis is what I detect to be an assumption concerning the nature of scientific objectivity and the difference between empirical
objectivity and the aims and methods of philosophical discourse. I reject this dichotomy. Science is just a conventionalized form of philosophy, and the reason that psychiatry seems inadequate in comparison with the ‘harder’ sciences isnt that it fails to solidly ground itself in objective facts like a domain like physics does, but that it has one foot in philosophy and one in science. This gives it a vantage on its subject matter that is more nuanced and richer than the abstractive generalizations that define the hard sciences. It is what the hard sciences ignore (namely, the interpenetration between subjectivity and objectivity) that makes them seem more successful and certain in their descriptions than psychiatry. But their grasp of the world is no truer in an ultimate sense than psychiatry’s.
Deleted User September 09, 2024 at 19:26 #931031
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Joshs September 09, 2024 at 19:37 #931034
Reply to tim wood

Quoting tim wood
My impression is that many psychiatrists have retreated from false claims to providing services that will foster trust: prescribing, managing certain kinds of care, and so forth


Oooh, false claims. That sounds like a terrible thing. Imagine not accepting true claims like the idea that mental illness is the result of a chemical imbalance in the brain. Anyone trying to peddle ‘true’ claims with respect to psychological issues is someone I would run away from as fast as possible. I don’t want the claims of my therapist to be true, I want them to be useful, and that is as much a function of the mesh between client and therapist as it is the theoretical orientation of the therapist. Also , the ‘true’ claims of one era of psychiatry will inevitably be seen as false, or more likely simply forgotten by a succeeding era. Does any one remember when what we now call depression was understood very differently as melancholy? How long before the rage of bipolar and Adhd diagnosis gives way to something else? Is this the result of runaway pseudoscience , or does all science operate on the basis of historically changing social constructions?
unenlightened September 13, 2024 at 11:42 #931672
Quoting Joshs
or does all science operate on the basis of historically changing social constructions?


The stretch from psychology to all science misses a rather important difference that is peculiar to the 'human' sciences. When one studies electrons, or planets, or plate tectonics, one can reasonably assume that right or wrong, one's hypothesis about phenomena will not materially affect the behaviour one is studying. But human behaviour is radically transformed by human understanding, so that as soon as a psychological theory has some measure of success, it alters human nature and the phenomena one is studying change. This explains why psychology appears more like the fashion industry than a science.
Joshs September 13, 2024 at 12:46 #931676
Reply to unenlightened

Quoting Joshs
or does all science operate on the basis of historically changing social constructions?


Quoting unenlightened
The stretch from psychology to all science misses a rather important difference that is peculiar to the 'human' sciences. When one studies electrons, or planets, or plate tectonics, one can reasonably assume that right or wrong, one's hypothesis about phenomena will not materially affect the behaviour one is studying. But human behaviour is radically transformed by human understanding, so that as soon as a psychological theory has some measure of success, it alters human nature and the phenomena one is studying change. This explains why psychology appears more like the fashion industry than a science


I like what Rorty has to say about this:


To deny the existence of facts and truths about protons long before the term “photon” appeared in language leads to para­dox. This is because it seems reasonable to infer as follows:
( l ) There were photons five million years ago.
(2) It was the case then that there were photons.
(3) It is true that it was the case then that there were photons.
(4) It was true then that there were photons.
It seems reasonable, but of course philosophers have, paradoxically, denied it. Heidegger notoriously said that “before Newton, Newton’s laws were nei­ther true nor false


We should think of normativity, of the possibility of correctness and incorrectness, in terms of human beings’ answerability to one other. We can say everything we need to say about ob­jectivity, about the possibility that any given judgment we make, no matter how unanimously, could be wrong, without ever talking about “answerabil­ity to the world” or “world-directedness.” This account of objectivity works just as well for mathematics as for physics. It is as applicable to liter­ary criticism as to chemistry. The centrality of perception and of natural science to his treatment of the topic of answerability becomes explicit when John McDowell says:

“Even if we take it that answerability to how things are includes more than an­swerability to the empirical world, it nevertheless seems right to say this: since our cognitive predicament is that we confront the world by way of sensible in­tuition (to put it in Kantian terms), our reflection on the very idea of thought’s directedness at how things are must begin with answerability to the empirical
world.”

When discussing literature or politics, however, it is a bit strained to say that we are in a cognitive predicament. It is even more obviously strained to say that this predicament is caused by the need to confront the world by way of sensible intuition. McDowell’s choice of Kantian terms is a choice of visual metaphors, metaphors that Kant used to lament our lack of the faculty of intellectual in­tuition that Aristotle had described, overoptimistically, in DeAnima. It is also a choice of natural science as the paradigm of rational inquiry, a Kantian choice that Hegel explicitly repudiates. When one switches from Kant to Hegel, the philosopher whom Sellars described as “the great foe of imme­diacy,” these metaphors lose much of their appeal. So it is not surprising that it is among anglophone philosophers, who read far more Kant than they do Hegel, that these metaphors should remain most prevalent.

From a Sellarsian, Davidsonian, Brandomian, or Hegelian viewpoint, there is no clear need for what McDowell describes as ‘a minimal empiricism’: the idea that experience must constitute a tribunal, mediating the way our thinking is answerable to how things are, as it must be if we are to make sense of it as thinking at all. We are constantly interacting with things as well as with persons, and one of the ways in which we interact with both is through their effects on our sensory organs and other parts of our bodies. But we don’t need the notion of experi­ence as a mediating tribunal. We can be content with an account of the world as exerting control on our inquiries in a merely causal way, rather than as exerting what McDowell calls “rational control”.

unenlightened September 14, 2024 at 11:42 #931873
Reply to Joshs
[quote=Rorty?]But we don’t need the notion of experi­ence as a mediating tribunal. We can be content with an account of the world as exerting control on our inquiries in a merely causal way, rather than as exerting what McDowell calls “rational control”.[/quote]

I'm not sure if I understand this, but if I do, then it goes something like this:— the cliff doesn't mind if you have a theory of gravity or a theory of under-cliff trolls that will suck you down and eat your soul, as long as the effect is that you don't fall off the cliff. But when it comes to Psyche, and more so when it comes to Sophia, then either rational, or irrational control is what it is all about and the causal effect cannot be predicted at all either way, other than by a rational or irrational calculation that is itself in the purview of those same goddesses.

BC September 15, 2024 at 19:05 #932147
Reply to tim wood The motto of The Radical Therapist", a leftist, anti-psychiatry mental health zine from the early 70s, was "Therapy means change, not adjustment." That seems like truth for people who are unhappy; frustrated by their life circumstances; in chronic debt; in abusing relationships; stuck in bad jobs; and so on and so forth. The kind of change a lot of people need is possible and doesn't require professional help. It's just damned hard to bring about. So, a lot of us remain unhappy, frustrated, unfulfilled, and so on.

Psychiatry has little to offer people who are merely very unhappy, other than tranquilizers and antidepressants.

The people who really need psychiatry are those with major mental illnesses -- bi-polar; schizophrenics; psychotic disorders, OCD, CD / MI, and the like. Changing one's life circumstances might improve life for someone experiencing episodes of psychosis. Or not. It won't cure them.

My own experience with psychiatry -- antidepressant and sedative therapy on the one hand, and extended talk therapy on the other -- is that they help one cope with the life one is living but not liking. In the end what helped me was major change, not adjustment. I can't claim that I engineered the kinds of change that helped. Life changed and I started feeling much better.

I've seen major mental illness up close--in partners and relatives. It can be pretty ugly. They needed all the psychiatric help they could get. And it helped. Bi-polar, MI/CD, and the like are not really 'curable' but they benefit from the benefit which the medical model of psychiatry can give.

There certainly are abuses by the pharmo-medical industry. I suspect that far too many children are being 'identified' with Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) and being prescribed stimulants (which in children have a 'paradoxical' effect). This idea was being studied in the late 1960s, early 1970s in Boston in largely black elementary schools. (I was working at a hospital at the time where the research was being done, though I wasn't involved in it.) Drugging overly active black boys seemed like a good idea to both the schools and the doctors.

For these disruptive boys what was needed was change -- better homes, better communities, better schools, better opportunities, better environments -- not therapy.
Deleted User September 15, 2024 at 20:03 #932161
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BC September 16, 2024 at 01:49 #932242
Reply to tim wood It takes about 12 years to become a psychiatrist. A good therapist will probably need a masters or a doctorate -- that's another 3 to 5 years, minimum. The motivation required to be a psychiatrist (or a heart surgeon, whatever) is different than the motivation to be a psychotherapist (not thinking of Freud, here).

There are people without MDs, MAs, or PhDs--even without BAs, who--because they are healthy, intelligent, reasonably insightful, good listeners, and kind can help people they know through rough patches of life. For a lot of people that kind of "helping volunteer" is all they will need.

This is a very old study -- it's maybe 60 years old now, and I can't vouch for its quality. When I was in graduate school in 1970 we discussed a study in Wisconsin where psychiatrists, counselors, and laymen (people without any training in therapy) were each assigned several patients with fairly serious mental health problems. Each "therapist" provided the kind of therapy they thought would be beneficial. What was remarkable in the finding was that patients who were treated by laymen did as well as patients assigned a trained therapist.

What this shows is that either a) one kind of therapy is as likely or unlikely to work as a different therapy, OR that some kinds of mental illness (like schizophrenia) are resistant to psychotherapy. This strikes me as consistent with reality. A kind, insightful, skilled psychiatrist can use medication to suppress outbreaks of psychosis. All the kind insightful talk in the world probably won't help. On the other hand, a schizophrenic or bi-polar person is likely to enjoy the social contact of talking with a kind, friendly, thoughtful person, whether that cures them or not.
kindred September 18, 2024 at 23:50 #933018

The real issue with psychology is that it tries to treat non-organic problems organically that is through medication which can be inhumane rather than other more humane methods such as CBT for example. It makes too many assumptions about the workings of the brain by trying to simplify it. Mental health problems are not located in the brain but in the patients perception/cognition of the world. In this regard the field of psychiatry remains in the dark ages.