Australian politics

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Quoting tim wood

Being one, I would know.

Trouble is, The Liberal Party of Australia is not.

Wouldn't the liberal strategy be to reduce taxes, keep out of the market and let the consumer choose? Using "l" to distinguish the philosophy from the party.

Same with their recently announced policy on Nuclear power. They will build seven new reactors using our money. Government owned. It's odd.

Quoting Our Beliefs

In short, we simply believe in individual freedom and free enterprise; and if you share this belief, then ours is the Party for you.

Not so much, it seems.

Did you perhaps underestimate how full of shit politicians on BOTH sides really are? I do not know the politics but it seems obvious you were misinformed or lied to about the positions they actually had. I would posit that the only ideology these parties had was staying in power and not what they profess to believe at all but Im quite cynical about politicians.
How common is this sort of reversal in Australia?

Reply to Banno I don't think we've had a Liberal Party in Australia in some years. Old school conservatives and 'wets' were overtaken by radical free marketeers and culture war wankers. And conversely, the Labor Party tries to appeal to business and prosperous white collar people, while tradies increasingly see themselves as small business owners and Liberal voters, who often resent welfare spending. The electorate also seems to have changed. And who'd be a politician these days anyway? Most people instantly hate you, or think you're a lying, narcissistic hypocrite.

Quoting Banno

Now this is posited as an alternative to the Labour idea of giving each household a sum in order to offset the cost of electricity.

When the government gives money directly to citizens for a particular purpose that money may seem like an invitation to celebrate in various ways rather than use for its intended purpose. That happened here under covid, although there was no pretense it be used for children's health, etc. The temptation to celebrate might not be as strong if gas prices are reduced a bit. Just a thought.

The history of election promises in countries like here can be divided into 1/ kept or 2/ unkept, with further subdivisions. These subdivisions express the degree of 1/ or 2/ and give excuses/reasons as to why 1/ or 2/ could or should be attributed.
Which party makes or breaks these promises is given a name which can change from time to time (with some exceptions).
To believe that a party's name or history of election promises is indicative of a single interpretation of its own "mission statement" is to show democratic political naivety.

But to comment on @Banno opening comment. Liberal's use to support the big end of town and Labor used to support the little man. But there have been changes along the way both interspectionally and intraspectionally, perception-wise.

"...Labor policy to be to take public control of the gas industry" expresses pre-Neoliberal Labor values .ie. back in the 1950s-60s. Ancient history in today's world view!

Notice the independents collectively called Teals have a taste for partyism but also want to have and to eat their cake.

No argument, just observation based on life long experience ( for what that's limited in its worth).

2 cents worth of smile

Reply to Banno Did you see this?

@Tom Storm,

Well made point with that video. Enough room for multiple interpretations, like politics.

appreciative smile

Reply to kazan :up:

Quoting Tom Storm

I don't think we've had a Liberal Party in Australia in some years.

Perhaps Fraser? It was astonishing how much he improved after he left office.

The recent ACT election was a walkover for Labor, followed by the usual Liberal backstabbing leadership struggle. For some odd reason they seem to think that the best way to get elected in the most left-leaning state or territory is to shuffle even further to the right...

So the issue is, Federally, how much damage are they doing to themselves, if any? Or is the brand name now irrelevant?

And how long until they hand whatever reactors they succeed in building over to Gina Rinehart?

So here's a thread for us to "sit up the back and judge others".

Perhaps the teaching of (unfettered) civics and critical thinking at all levels of education, (civics up to undergraduate level where it can go on as professional ethics etc) may be the best educational improvement for the tidying up of politics.
But which political theory/ system would/could ( with)stand the probable outcome in the real world.
Governance, good or otherwise, rarely withstands intense scrutiny on a decision by decision basis. And not everybody takes/applies what they're taught on into their lives.

just a smile

Quoting Banno

Perhaps Fraser? It was astonishing how much he improved after he left office.

Yes... I noted also that Fraser thought Hawke/Keating were too 'right-wing' and pro-business when they floated the dollar and deregulated the labour market and let treasury call the shots.

Quoting Banno

So the issue is, Federally, how much damage are they doing to themselves, if any? Or is the brand name now irrelevant?

I'm not a close follower of politics but I suspect the game is changing. It's not that the brand name is irrelevant, perhaps it's more a case of how brands function - there may be more mobility in what they can align with. But only if the public buy it. And I guess Dutton thought he would try something new in the hope it would resonate? How else to understand it?

Quoting Banno

And how long until they hand whatever reactors they succeed in building over to Gina Rinehart?

If she were smart she could almost be Musk to Dutton's Trump...

Quoting Tom Storm

And I guess Dutton thought he would try something new in the hope it would resonate? How else to understand it?

I'm thinking the logic doesn't go beyond "We need something different to the ALP's policy... this is different, let's do this!"

Quoting Tom Storm

If she were smart she could almost be Musk to Dutton's Trump...

If...

Reply to kazan As Tom said, who'd take on the job?

I've some admiration for David Pocock, whom I have heard speak; if he is faking his sincerity, then he is a master.

@Banno,

Any party of the foreseeable future [that is while we wait out this social media driven ( amongst other drivers) populist trend in current politics,] is capable of "...hand(ing) whatever reactors.....over to ( the party's latest election funders)".
Dollars of advertising buys votes, apparently. Too many disengaged voters make this possible here, despite compulsory voting. Times were when this country got the governance it required at an election.
Now, maybe we do or maybe we don't?
That last line may originate from disillusionment of youth or cynicism of age.
Such is life.

Sober smile

Reply to jgill If I give a twenty to someone on the street, I don't much care if they spend it on booze instead of a salad. Folk do what they do to get by.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Reply to tim wood Interesting question. Our Liberal party has been a Tory party. The name an accident of history. Our Liberals are more aligned with and sympathetic to US Republicans.

I heard that Australia is in the process of implementing a law that prohibits anyone under 16 from using social media.

Reply to Leontiskos Yes. That'll work. :rofl:

Reply to tim wood "Conservative" means, pretty much, The Establishment. So yes, it's 'What can I afford", by way of keeping things as they are. This is historically the squattocarcy, in the bush, and the landlords, in the city. They are at most a small minority, and so their interests are anti-democratic. They use the Liberal Party as a front to bolster their voting power.

Reply to Banno Well, you have sunshine, Europe doesn't always have it. Hence you have the case of Germany that closed all of it's nuclear stations and now is paying literally the price for it and has to turn to fossil fuels. And not only Germany, but also other countries suffer too from stupid German decisions. This just a reminder that energy policy is something that effects the economy along other matters, not just an ecological issue. Unfortunately energy policy isn't usually done with long term planning and usually isn't done in the realm of reality, but with hopeful optimism and well sounding principles. Or then is something equivalent of the US shouting match where one side is yelling: "Drill, baby, Drill!!!"



Of course, you have your own Continent and even Indonesia and other smaller island nations are so far away that might as well forget it. But anyway, how is Aussie energy policy going?

Reply to ssu Curious.

Australia's energy policy? That's a laugh. It's been impossible to invest in major energy projects for decades because of the tossing and turning. Energy projects need stability. The Liberals have been in denial with regard to the environment, and science in general. Both Labor and Liberal Parties are beholden to gas and coal - huge exports.

Gas is a joke. We rank fifth in the world for exports, but have a shortage of gas for domestic supply; a result of the most absurd lack of forethought.

We are pretty much made of coal, one way or another, but haven't built a new coal power station since the early nineties*. We sell the stuff to India and China instead.

Most Australian houses could pretty much power themselves with solar and a battery - I do - and so the uptake of rooftop solar is enormous. Around a third have PV.

Here's a comparison of the two main parties, and the Greens. It's outdated, as the LNP have just introduced a plan to build seven nuclear power plants, using very sus economics, and gas, to sort things out.

* A couple were built in WA, as it turns out. I stand corrected.

Infrastructure has suffered years of neglect.

Quoting ssu

...even Indonesia and other smaller island nations are so far away...

Maybe not... Australia-Asia Power Link

Typical of large scale investment here.

Reply to Banno Sounds like a Western energy policy to me. :lol:

It's interesting that usually all Western countries really underperform in energy policy so badly, that one can question if there really is a true long term energy policy. Usually there isn't.

Australians are one of the biggest countries for carbon emissions, per capita your rank is 16th with 15 tonnes of CO2 emissions per capita, which is the highest emissions in OECD countries, or Western democracies. Yes, it's higher than the drilling loving Americans, Canadians or Russians. France has 4,6 tonnes per capita and my country has 6,7 tonnes. So... should we, the other members of the PF, have this Greta Thunberg moment and shame you and Australia?

@Banno, HOW DARE U!


After that hypocritical moment of gaslighting (pun intended), let's continue.

Your country is of course famous for it's mining industry, but just like with modern farming, mining doesn't employ people as it used to do. But I guess it's important for your exports and tax income.

Quoting Banno

Typical of large scale investment here.

When first things that pops up from that link are terms like "World's largest solar plant" with "World's largest submarine power cable", you know there's the possibility later in hindsight the "failure" and "boondoggle". And oh wait, further reading it seems it's not the World's largest solar plant. 6 gigawatt production is basically six small old nuclear power plants. Still something! :up:

Yet typical Western energy policy. This is universal, really. :smile:

Quoting ssu

shame you and Australia

Well how else we gunna pay for our holiday in Bali? Besides, it's not US who burn the coal... we just sell it to China and India. It't them you should blame...

Or so the story goes.

Quoting Banno

Besides, it's not US who burn the coal... we just sell it to China and India. It't them you should blame...

Yep, That's the inconvenient truth:




The idea of making fossil fuels artificially expensive and renewables artificially cheap doesn't work. In the end when something is far more cheaper, then change happens.

Reply to ssu ?% graphs are a bit deceptive. What it shows is that China and India have been undergoing development.

Here's an ABC report that came out today.

I don’t think Dutton’s nuclear policy stacks up, but it’s also a great pity that it’s been made a partisan political issue - by him, mind you. But I think nuclear energy research should be on the table as part of a possible solution, instead of it being a Labor v Liberal matter.

Reply to BannoIt's not deceptive. Huge Increases in carbon emissions happen because of rapid economic growth. Income and prosperity hasn't at all so much in the West as it has in China. Let's remember that in the start of the 1990's China's GDP was equivalent to or even smaller than the Netherlands.

You can literally see the reasons:
Then:

Now:

Reply to ssu As I said, what it shows is that China and India are undergoing rapid development.

Reply to Wayfarer I'd be happy for nuclear energy to be on the table. I do not think it anywhere near viable.

What is amusing, and prompted this thread, is that the erstwhile liberal, small government, market driven economy party are proposing to build them at taxpayer expense rather than leave it to corporations to decide if it makes economic sense.

And to proved cash to the operators of gas power stations rather than to give it to consumers, thus biasing the market.

Reply to Banno Agree. Dutton is wholly driven by talkback radio politics rather than principle.

Reply to Wayfarer Is talkback still influential? I find that hard to credit.

Liberal decisions were once made on the basis of neoliberal ideology. As the conservatives took control, policy became more about building inequality into the distribution of wealth. Now it seems to be simply about doing the opposite of whatever the ALP policy is.

It used to be that the ALP appeared to have more basic integrity than the Liberals. Now it's more like that the Liberals have just given up on any rational approach to problem solving, in favour of simply being contrary.

Reply to Banno Fair. By talkback, I meant populism rather than principle, although that doesn’t fit either as the nuclear policy isn’t that popular. I can’t stand Dutton, I’ve never believed he could be PM, but then I thought the same of Albanese in the past, so who knows?

Reply to Banno When I first heard of small modular reactors, they seemed a great idea. But as we all now know, they're not ready for market yet and may not ever be. The only one being trialled outside China was mothballed a year ago.

Reply to Wayfarer If it were left to the market, it's pretty clear that solar would (and indeed will) be the dominant source of power in Australia. But that is contrary to a narrative built up by right-leaning pundits over the last thirty years, supporting the idea of a centralised energy grid that is controlled by corporate bodies, rejecting the science of climate change and the reality of the market. Part of the need to propose Nuclear might be a vague notion of consistency. More likely it is inertia and desperation.

Reply to Banno True enough, but there is also need for massive distributed storage, either batteries or some other mechanism, like hydro, to supply baseload power. I'm sure that's not just corporate propaganda. Although that said, there's work underway to connect existing grid infrastructure to solar plants e.g. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/16/climate/coal-to-solar-minnesota?cid=ios_app

Reply to Wayfarer That's not the view of those in the CSIRO:
Base load power: The dinosaur in the energy debate

Reply to Banno Thanks. Worth knowing.

Quoting Wayfarer

I'm sure that's not just corporate propaganda.

The problem of base load power isn't just corporate propaganda. Look at prices in Germany.
In Finland we have prices of megawatt hour of 55 euros to a little bit over 100 euros. Germany had price spikes of +900 euros megawatt hour, when the sun isn't shining and there's no wind.

But of course, if energy prices don't matter, then I guess it's corporate propaganda. And nuclear power is one smart way to have that base load power. It doesn't have to be coal power plants.

Quoting ssu

The problem of base load power isn't just corporate propaganda.

Yeah I didn't think so, although must admit to probably needing a bit more research. I'm not against nuclear power in principle, but the practical, political, economic, and environmental barriers are enormous, particularly here in Australia.

Reply to Wayfarer Just don't take the idiotic road of Germany: that you simply have an administration that takes off critical base load energy production and assumes that renewables will do the issue.

So closing all the coal plants and relying purely on renewables, because the "battery problem" will be resolved in a few months, is the road to disaster. Because when those coal plants are demolished and the personnel has retired or gotten jobs somewhere else, you cannot simply backtrack the situation when you face multiple times higher energy costs and perhaps rolling blackouts. Germany doesn't have rolling blackouts because of the integrated nature of electricity production in the EU. Also note that Germany is severely losing it's competitiveness because of high energy prices. The UK is another example of high energy prices that to lousy and inefficient investment on energy production.

Reply to ssu Take a look at table 2 in Renewable electricity policy for Australia. P.7.

Australia is a bit larger than Germany, (about 20 times the area), with correspondingly much longer grids, plural, and with different parts of those grids in very different locations. Modelling apparently suggests that "base load" can be ignored over such a scale, especially if the network is made more efficient and interconnected.

Foremost is perhaps the problem of local wiring being too thin to take the load form rooftop solar during sunny days. It will become prone to overheating and failure.

This is an issue to whcih we might return in a year or two, when the experiment has run it's course.

We could explore natural disasters, like the closing of King Island Dairy.

No more Lighthouse Blue Brie!

Reply to ssu - Yep.

Reply to Banno Well known knuckle-dragged spills the beans

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-12-20/canavan-coalition-not-serious-nuclear-keith-pitt-quits/104749828?utm_source=abc_news_app&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_campaign=abc_news_app&utm_content=link

Broken Hill fiasco shows why we need to rethink the grid, and turn it upside down

Reply to Wayfarer I noticed that. Arguably the remnants of the Australian Country Party suffer from a poor combination of honesty and ignorance. And poor judgement.

@Banno,
...suffer from a poor combination of honesty and ignorance. And poor judgement."
Sounds like that applies to all politics and adherents at some time and depending on the commentator's bias/wheelbarrow.
Not knocking it though in this case. Electorates' members reserve the right to collectively elect dinosaurs, loonies, car sales persons, academics etc. etc.
Unfortunately, there are few legal limitations to nomination to stand for political election. Maybe, it could be argued, that is a benefit of the party based governance system, the weeding out effect of pre-selection.

Can't have the peons choosing their candidates. Could get too much parochial diversity and what would that do to the culture of politics? Not to mention the coherence of the nation?

And sorry Banno, your intention of highlighting( but not exclusively) the climate "debate" particularly in regard to electrical energy production, which is currently keeping the voters' minds off other more "complex" concerns such as housing, energy usage and the dreaded "cost of living crisis", flew right past due to the wishful and hopeful thinking that you may be introducing a balance to the heavy influence of US political and educated interest/argument that shows a "slight" preponderance, possibly due the nationality statistics of forum members. Sorry, if your intentions were misunderstood. Being corrected will be taken in the good grace that keeps the civility of the forum.
It is and will be very interesting catching up with the "homegrown" political interests and interpretations of fellow citizens et al. Keeping informed about politics is a bottomless well of...

slightly more eye opened smile

It is always interesting to see how others, particularly/including Aussies, compare the Australian political parties with the US big two.
It may be suggested that any current comparison using "left" and "right" of the Reps or of the Dems is dated.
The LNP for all its "rhetoric" is still "left" of the Dems, even of the B.Sanders faction.
The LNP understands the general socialist/ social consciousness of current Aust voting and adjusts its face accordingly. Please note, "voting" not voters.
And for all its slide towards the big end of town, Labor is still "left" of the LNP in the opinions of the majority of Aust voters who are interested in such comparisons.

Does anyone agree? Or is this overly naive/ simplistic to comment upon/upon which to comment?

smile

Tania Mihailuk joins exodus from One Nation, leaving Pauline Hanson’s party without representation in NSW

How sad.

CSIRO accused of ‘pro-reality’ bias following assessment of Dutton’s nuclear ‘plan’

While

Plibersek brags that Labor hasn’t approved any fossil fuel projects for a few hours

What a difference a few hours makes Inserted into politico sound bites. Taunting,mistake/slip of the tongue, creative fact constructing, perhaps! re: T Plibersek. (Spellcheck doesn't recognize her surname yet. Wonder what that augers?)

Another issue current in Aus politics.

1/ What influences will monetary limits on future election campaigns have? If at least two people can agree that there may be influences, and what they were post election?
1a/ Should such limits be pegged to inflation ( pick your favorite named set of those figures) or cost of living ( again, pick your....) or GDP or the total of politicians' gross wages and benefits ( pick how that should/ could be calculated) or a wealth distribution equalization figure compared to GDP figures.

A suggested reply may be 1/ " as much or little influence as the election committees can manipulate to advantage". But it may make it less about throwing money at advertising to buy votes or increase "pork barrelling".
and 1a/ GDP with wealth distribution equalization qualifiers as an incentive/bonus for good economic decisions/ cooperativeness and less politicking/ point scoring ( or sheer good guessing/luck). Good governance in other words.

(Yeah, a bit Democratic Socialist in at least one interpretation of DS theory. Prefer to think of it as social requirement/preference.)

Just some "random" thoughts

faint smile

Hi.

Can non-Australians participate in this Thread and can they voice their opinion? Because I, as a non-Australian, have something controversial to say about Australian politics.

EDIT: Actually, I have quite a lot of controversial things to say about Australian politics.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Of course.

Reply to Banno Thanks.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm from Argentina. I'll also tell everyone a silly anecdote, just to ease up the mood. So, oddly enough, there's Eucalyptus trees in the town that I live. Someone brought them from Australia ages ago. I always thought they were part of the local flora, until someone told me many years later that someone brought them from Australia ages ago. Crazy stuff.

So, years forward, I go to this philosophical Congress in another province (they're called "provinces", not "states", in Argentina). In one of the presentations that I just happened to wander into, a team of philosophers, biologists, historians and geographers were explaining that at the end of the 19th Century and the first decades of the 20th, a series of Argentine politicians wanted to turn Argentina into "the Australia of South America". Literally, mate. Now, what do I mean by "literally" in this story that I'm telling? I mean that the team in question, explained to us, the audience, how Argentina was to become "the Australia of South America". And it was a three-stage plan. Stage One: bring the Australian flora, and plant it in Argentina. It's why there's Eucalyptus tree in my hometown, and in other areas as well. The plan never got past this stage. And they didn't bring all the flora, just the Eucalyptus. But there were two more stages to this plan. Stage two would have been to bring over the Australian fauna. Complete ecological chaos would have ensued. And the third stage of the plan was the craziest: Bring the actual Australian people over here. Just bring them. Offer them land. Offer them money. Marry them. Kidnap them. Just bring a population of literal Australians to Argentina. It was an insane plan of course, with bogus ideas, which fortunately didn't succeed.


Having told the preceding story to ease up everyone's mood, here's the main problem that I have with mainstream Australian politics, though it's an idea that's not exclusive to Australia. The very idea that Australia is a continent bothers me. The continent in that area, as far as I'm concerned, is Oceania, and Australia is just one more country among others in the continent of Oceania. To say that Oceania is "just a region" and therefore not a continent, is like saying that Europe is "just a region" and therefore not a continent. How can Great Britain be part of Europe, but the Pacific nations not be part of Oceania?

Cheers.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

they're called "provinces", not "states", in Argentina)

We also say "pronvinces" or "comunidad" instead of "states"

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Some erudite mates (under Franco's era) did the same decades ago in Spain. Aussie Eucalyptus represents now 28% of Galician flora. Eucalyptus and pines were chosen by the caudillo to dry out swamps. Good choice back in the 1950s, mate!

But now that green and tall Aussie tree is controversial in Spain. You may have heard about our heavy desertification and how Catalunya is literally running out of water. Well, some folks blame the eucalyptus because they dry out the territory surrounding them. These trees now dominate the Iberian flora and don’t allow local plants to develop properly.

I remember that on a YouTube video about Spain's drought, an Australian mate commented: Don't plant eucalyptus bulbs!11!!1!1 But I replied -- Sorry, mate. Too late... Franco already did his best...

Shall we blame Australia because of this? Nah.

Can I blame @Banno? Absolutely. :eyes:

Cheers.

-----

Bienvenido al foro. Qué alegría tener otro hispanohablante. De Argentina cómo Casares y Borges. :up:

Reply to javi2541997 Muchas gracias, debo decir que este es el mejor Foro que jamás he visitado, lo cual es curioso, dado que me registré hace menos de media semana. De Casares no tengo una opinión. En cuanto a Borges, creo que fue un genio, hablando con propiedad y objetivamente. Sin embargo, en lo personal, prefiero al mentor de Borges: el escritor y filósofo Macedonio Fernández.

Quoting javi2541997

Some erudite mates (under Franco's era) did the same decades ago in Spain. Aussie Eucalyptus represents now 28% of Galician flora. Eucalyptus and pines were chosen by the caudillo to dry out swamps. Good choice back in the 1950s, mate!

Swamp desertification is a good use for Eucalyptus trees. But the problem with that, objectively, is what you correctly say in the following quote:

Quoting javi2541997

But now that green and tall Aussie tree is controversial in Spain. You may have heard about our heavy desertification and how Catalunya is literally running out of water. Well, some folks blame the eucalyptus because they dry out the territory surrounding them. These trees now dominate the Iberian flora and don’t allow local plants to develop properly.

It's a real problem. And it's a problem at a very "low", "basic", or "deep" level of Reality itself, because it's a problem at the level of ecology. Like, this isn't a purely political problem. It's not a purely religious problem. It's not a purely psychological or social problem. This is an objective problem, at the level of biological ecology itself. Potentially, it is extremely de-stabilizing for everything that is directly above it: economics, social relations, political structure, etc. I may be wrong, of course.

Quoting javi2541997

Shall we blame Australia because of this? Nah.

Nah, I agree with you there. Australia itself has nothing to do with this problem.

On a side note, Eucalyptus trees are also good for selling their wood. You can plant them, grow them, chop 'em up and sell them, repeat. That's what people did in my hometown for several generations, and other towns in the area have been doing the same thing for generations. I think no one does it currently, though. They just left the Eucalyptus patches as if they were "artificial forests", so to speak. Now people buy up those parcels of land and they just build houses. I don't think that anyone can complain that "we're destroying the Eucalyptus patches" when someone removes them to make a house. Like, this isn't Australia, mate. I'm allowed to cut down a God damn Eucalyptus in Argentina and not feel bad about it.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

On a side note, Eucalyptus trees are also good for selling their wood. You can plant them, grow them, chop 'em up and sell them, repeat.

Yeah. Folks make tonnes of paper thanks to Eucalyptus' wood. It might be a win-win plant/product if they don't damage the local flora. I think the Eucalyptus is pretty neat, but only in Australian territory; I suppose this is the main point of the Eucalypteae topic. :lol:

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Like, this isn't Australia, mate. I'm allowed to cut down a God damn Eucalyptus in Argentina and not feel bad about it.

I wholeheartedly agree!

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

And the third stage of the plan was the craziest: Bring the actual Australian people over here. Just bring them. Offer them land. Offer them money. Marry them. Kidnap them. Just bring a population of literal Australians to Argentina. It was an insane plan of course, with bogus ideas, which fortunately didn't succeed.

Argentine: "You want some land, mate? Just travel to Argentina, it's yours."

Australian: "Nah mate, I'm good."

Argentine: "You want some money, mate? It's yours if you step foot on Argentine soil."

Australian: "Nah I'm good, mate."

Argentine: "You wanna marry me, mate? You'll get a free, lifetime Visa, you'll be both a resident and a citizen of Argentina."

Australian: "Nah mate, I'm fine here in Australia."

Argentine (angry, violent, threatening) "You're traveling to Argentina whether you like it or not, mate." (proceeds to kidnap the Australian.)

Yep, a flawless plan, I don't see how it could possibly fail.

Quoting javi2541997

Can I blame Banno? Absolutely. :eyes:

Yeah, I did it. I planted the Eucalypts.

Australia had a unique biome at colonisation. In urban areas, much of that has been replaced by European, and indeed global, flora. Much of the rest is what might be described as "park land", cultivated and deforested and used for sheep and cattle.

Eucalyptus drop bark, not just leaves. The result takes longer to break down into soil than other types of tree. The natural result is a much more friable top layer of partially broken down bark and leaf, hardly soil at all. That layer might easily be a foot thick. Prior to colonisation, the largest animals were soft-footed humans and 'roos, who did not help much to break the soil. After colonisation, the trees were removed and the 'roos replaced by ungulates, which break the humus and compress the soil. The result is a compacted, thin layer of material with little organic matter, poor at absorbing water.

Hence much of Australia's soils are quite poor, especially on the plains. Coastal areas faired better. Australia produces large quantities of agricultural products, not becasue of the quality of its soil, but becasue it's big.

This by way of agreeing with the theme that introducing foreign species might not be such a good idea.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

...here's the main problem that I have with mainstream Australian politics

That seems to be a problem with Australian geography rather then with it's politics. Sure, Papua and New Guinea are part of the Australian continent - should we take back New Guinea and invade Indonesia?

I'm not at all sure what you are suggesting.

Quoting Banno

That seems to be a problem with Australian geography rather then with it's politics. Sure, Papua and New Guinea are part of the Australian continent - should we take back New Guinea and invade Indonesia?

I'm not at all sure what you are suggesting.

Well, it's political geography, to phrase it more technically. I don't think that Australia should take back New Guinea, nor do I think that it should invade Indonesia. What I'm suggesting is that everyone (not just Australians) should stop referring to Australia as a continent. It isn't. It's part of a continent. You might think that this is mere semantics, but to me it's a metaphysical discussion, ultimately. Maybe that has nothing to do with Australian politics. But I would disagree: it's a matter of political geography.

What I'm saying is, Australian politics are not reflective of its political geography. And I say that as if it were a mere fact. And I think that it is. A mere fact, that is. There's a discrepancy between what Australians do as far as politics go, and what the actual political geography of that region -Oceania- is. And one of the very first corrective steps, in that regard, is to call Oceania what it is: a continent, that includes Australia, Papua, New Guinea, Indonesia, and other Oceanic countries.

I do not think that Papua and New Guinea are part of the Australian continent, because I don't think that Australia is a continent to begin with. It's a country within a continent.

No offense meant, it's just that it's a fascinating case in geo-political terms.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

What I'm suggesting is that everyone (not just Australians) should stop referring to Australia as a continent.

Yeah, ok. Tough. A couple of caveats should tide you over. It's not an issue of much import.

You know about New Australia? Paraguay had more success at attracting Australians than Argentina.

Australia finally has fuel efficiency standards. Or at least, it will tomorrow.

Quoting Banno

You know about New Australia? Paraguay had more success at attracting Australians than Argentina.

I did not. Fascinating stuff. I just learned that Australian Paraguayans exist. See? To me this is metaphysics. This proves that realism is true, and that idealism is false. Australian Paraguayans already existed, in the external world, independently of my mind, because I didn't even know that they existed.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich :wink:

Yep. Surprise, agreement and error - the trinity of realism.

Ok, so can I ask a political question? Don't respond it if you don't want to. What do you folks think of Australian Realism? It sounds like a respectable idea. Like, "The Hot Sun of Australia Forced Reality Upon Us", like, it's a good slogan, much better than "The whole is more than the sum of its parts".

Reply to Arcane Sandwich I pretty much agree with Malet. It's perhaps easier to hope its all in your imagination if you are stuck in a basement in Moscow rather than pumping water from tank to tank in thirty degree heat (my morning's work). The water and the tank and especially the heat become undeniable.

How's that political?

Reply to Banno

1) There is no ontological difference between political geography and political ontology.
2) If so, then: if political geography is respectable, then political ontology is respectable.
3) Political geography is respectable.
4) So, political ontology is respectable.
5) If so, then Australian realism is ontological.
6) If Australian Realism is ontological, then there is no ontological difference between it and political ontology
7) If so, then Australian Realism is political.
8) Therefore, Australian Realism is political.

Just goes to show how little Australian politics is known by those of other lands. Justification for this thread.
Not having a go at you Arcane Sandwich but you're a few million years out of date. S America and Australia and a few other now separate landmasses use to be part of one lump of dry land, let's call it Goanaland because of laziness and obscure humour,
Which means the biggest sin of Australian politics is to consider Australia contained the inland sea and is not simply the western (arbitrary) shoreline.
Please apply this to the term "the S. American continent" and apply your words of reason to the position of Argentina, that is, it's the eastern coastline of the earlier Gonanaland.
The point being, when last checked a continent contained more land out of water than under water ( not ice like Antarctica) to achieve the geographic recognition of being a continent rather than an ocean ( at this scale). "Oceania" says it all.
Must say though, Australia is slightly better off than you, inflation wise, which is also politics of the economic kind. Probably why kidnapping was mentioned. Argentina's boom and bust economic history comes to mind, while Australia's social history is conveniently ignored, for the moment.
On a side note, anyone care to explain Australian Realism to an ignorant ( of much including what Aust. Real. is) Oceanian ( nod to Arcane). Ignore the request of this side note, while Wiki truths will continue to be ignored by this ignorant Oceanian. (another nod to you know who)

Well stirred, Arcane. Sure you're not a displaced Aussie or Kiwi?

hearty laugh in keeping with the Christian season

@Banno.

You must have been somewhere cool or an early morning riser, yesterday. 37 C by 10.30 am yesterday in N E Vic. Thought about taking off the overcoat for political reasons, of course... displaced far north and western Qlder...
dry smile

Reply to kazan Canberra. Only got to 30? yesterday.

Stay out of the smoke.

Quoting kazan

The point being, when last checked a continent contained more land out of water than under water ( not ice like Antarctica) to achieve the geographic recognition of being a continent rather than an ocean ( at this scale). "Oceania" says it all.

Folks are talking about an 8th continent now, which they are calling "Zealandia". It's almost entirely submerged. Their main country is New Zealand. Some people go one step further and they read this politically: New Zealand, as country, does not want to be considered a part of Oceania (to say nothing of Australia).

What do you folks make of this? Does it make sense? Let's start with that. Thanks for letting me, a non-Australian, participate in this Thread.

@Banno,
Had the Grampians' smoke for a couple of days after Xmas. Now, just back to dust, harvest detritus and grass/tree pollen. Plus 42C @ 4pm now. No need for the overcoat until later this evening,perhaps. Life in the rural regions!

@Arcane Sandwich,
Recognizing/understanding/believing the one continent, one nation "nature" of Australia as a country, is imbibed with mother's milk here for most of the non recent migrant, born here, population. Your take on Oceania, as anything geographical/geological to do with Australia's self view of its national geography/geology, is limited to the few locals involved/interested in continental geography/geology. Not a common topic in the cafe latte swigging, the beer swilling or the battlers' meetings. It might interest underwater cable laying or mining corporations at their board meetings, most of which are held, at that level, in New York or London, as seen through the average Australian taxpayer's eyes.

There is a general bond/understanding/belief between Aus and NZ populations based on historical, trade and "so far from the rest of the world, we look out for each other" origins. Plus, holiday destinations (for Aussies)/ where to get better opportunities (for Kiwis) at a more micro/individual level, and lately, with greater first peoples' dialogue/common cause between "us".

The view of "us" rather than "you and us" is most common between Aussies and Kiwis when international issues/pressures arise that affects both (and sometimes, either) of us, no matter the proportional difference of overall effect. A sense of family with the little tiffs and rivalries but with the overall bonds and slight xenophobic edge towards "outsiders" that that entails. This sense of family is fluid in its intensity though.

And, on a lighter note, everyone's welcome to visit and speak freely in this country, after due visa processing, of course, so long as you don't arrive on an Indonesian fishing boat. That can get you years on off shore detention, in "never never" land.
Different views and questions are always welcome when well intended.

Side note: The above is only one pov...

Cheerful smile

Reply to kazan Thank you very much, @kazan.

In that case, I will say that it seems to me that it might be in Australia's best interest to declare its independence from the British Crown. In other words, it seems to me that Australia should be an independent nation-state. The same goes for every nation in Oceania. And all of them, the Oceanic nations, should compose the continent in Oceania in geopolitical terms.

Perhaps I am wrong, or mistaken in some other way. I am trying to make sense of this, from my own point of view as a South American. I am of course an Argentine by birth, that is the nation that I belong to. And precisely because of that, I am aware that I am a South American. How could I not? There is even a logical relation between the concept of the nation and the concept of the continent by definition. In other words, nationalism is an essential part of continentalism, yet the reverse is not the case: continentalism is not an essential part of nationalism (since a nationalist could be, instead, an inter-nationalist, or even a multi-nationalist, or a trans-nationalist for example).

Edit: in other words, it seems to me that continentalism is the "highest stage" of nationalism, or even the logical consequence of being a nationalist to begin with.

Edit 2: I've edited this thread for the sake of clarity.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Australia is an independent nation state. We only keep Charlie so that Sky News has something to write about when Trump is quite.

Quoting Banno

Australia is an independent nation state.

Is it? If it is under the rule of a Crown, even in a purely formal way, is it really an independent, sovereign country?

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Yep. And we do whatever we want, soon as we hear what that is from Washington.

Reply to Banno Then you are quite simply wrong, I would say. Nothing personal, and nothing against the world of facts.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich :rofl:

Quoting Banno

Only got to 30? yesterday.

Quoting kazan

Now, just back to dust, harvest detritus and grass/tree pollen. Plus 42C 4pm now. No need for the overcoat until later this evening,perhaps. Life in the rural regions!

The Aussie Christmas holidays. :sweat:

Even if the sun is shining (for the six hours it does today) and it's a clear day and not windy, -13 ? starts to be on the colder side in the South where I am. (In the north, no sun at all and -33 ?.)

Reply to ssu It's warmed up a bit, high thirties.

Gentlemen may remove their jackets.

Australia has the moral responsability to declare its independence from the rule of a Crown, if only for the simple reason that the existence of monarchies are incompatible with the demands and expectations of the worldwide public of the 21st Century. Monarchies, even constitutional monarchies, are conceptually ill-equipped to adequately dignify the executive power in certain strategic, key decisions that must be taken purely in terms of cost-effectiveness. Whatever those are, they must be considered case-by-case. Ethics and Royalty do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.

@Banno

".... We only keep Charlie....... Trump is quite."

Quite!

"Yep........what that is from Washington.)

Quiet!

@Arcane Sandwich,

"..if only for the simple reason...demands and expectations of the worldwide public of the 21st Century"

Do you really think you can get consistency between 3 citizens picked at random from each of the world's countries ( so, less than 600 citizens of the world) as to their demands and expectations regarding compatibility of monarchies as a form of government? 600 out of 7-8 billion people? Good luck!
But if you restrict your statistical base to those that are interested in this area of governance and choose by the same method i.e. 3 at random that are interested per country, you may get lucky....
In short, the 21st Century worldwide public has more pressing interests in their own neighbourhood.

Not having a shot at you, .... but, sweeping statements are more likely to set off logic alarms than convince of rightness.

Media hype/sales/hits and barrow pushing academic talking heads are poor indicators of humanity's "collective" ( if there is such) thinking/beliefs. Doubt The Public can drop issues and pick up "new" ones with such rapidity and lack of follow-through. They're not paid/incentivized enough.

"Ethics and Royalty do not necessarily go hand-in-hand."

Republics, autocracies, oligarchies etc. etc, all have executive problems, not to mention ethical conundrums, cost and time effectivenessly speaking, which should be considered case by case. But, monarchies should not be given such consideration because they are "ill-equipped to adequately dignify the executive power"?
Mmm, some monarchies didn't do power spreads like exec, judic. legis,etc and got along swimmingly, sometimes, just like other forms of governance with such "apparent" divisions do now, sometimes, and sometimes, not.
Maybe,the question to ask is "What governance works best for which country's people at any given time?" and give it a name or categorize it when it's working. Rather than, one size/ one form of governance should/must fit all.
Informed, specific, critical input trumps/ has greater value than general ideology in the game we call politics, mostly!

The realization that politics/policies in some/most countries have world wide effects is another whole bowl of goldfish teetering on the edge of the ledge as well.

Just a thought.

Will leave it up to Banno to explain the position/relationship of the Gov - General, Charlie and the Aust parliaments in this constitutional monarchy.... that is what we still call it, isn't it?
Banno's more verbally cost/time efficient.

Tolerant, but not superior, smile

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

if only for the simple reason that the existence of monarchies are incompatible with the demands and expectations of the worldwide public of the 21st Century.

Pfft... there are a lot of things that are "incompatible with the demands and expectations of the worldwide public of the 21st century," and I think a king or queen is less harmful to the people, honestly.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Ethics and Royalty do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.

Ethics and a Republic either. :wink: -- Is Maduro an ethical politician to his own people? It is an old classic debate. Yes, there are strong republics such as Germany or Ireland, but also monarchies that represent the welfare like Denmark and Japan. I mean, it is obvious that the Japanese system (a monarchy) is by far more ethical than Ecuador or Mexico. But, at the same time, our royalty is more rotten than the Irish system, etc. It is just we have to be careful in categorising some systems as more 'modern' or 'ethical' than others.

@ssu,

While writing the above... an accurate/adequate descriptive noun alludes..., the temp hit 42C again and it is medium overcast with dense cloud and small breaks of blue sky in between. Clouds are unusual for this type of heat in this area.
Spent a lot of the 1990s droughts in Western Queensland. No electricity, bore water for drinking (always as strong tea), nearest town, sometimes as much as 250 klms away over bulldust ( fine red dust particles that suspend in the still air ) roads/sometimes tracks (unpaved) and blue steel skies, no humidity measurable, despite the frequent/constant mirages, and daytime temps ranging between high 30s on cool days, low to mid 40s most days and a general run of 10 to 15 days of high 40s to low 50s around Xmas into the new year. Nighttime temps could drop to low to mid 10s on good nights. Mid December through to late Feb.
That could be a reason why 90+% of Australia's population lives within 80 klms of the more temperate coast. Not enough trees for shade/rain, out west, maybe another reason nowadays if some of the environmentalists are to be believed.

A side note for you.
Mt. Isa, a silver, lead and zinc mining, pastoral and administrative town in Nth West Qld, was home to a large number of Finnish migrant miners in the 1950s and 60s.

cheery smile

Reply to kazan Ample reasons why Australia wasn't a home for many millions of Aboriginals in 1788. When the English came around there were likely as many as there were Finns living in Finland then. With a less harsh environment, that wouldn't have been so.

Now Queensland has a population similar to Finland, even if it's five times larger. And we call our country rather empty (by European standards).

Quoting kazan

Do you really think you can get consistency between 3 citizens picked at random from each of the world's countries ( so, less than 600 citizens of the world) as to their demands and expectations regarding compatibility of monarchies as a form of government? 600 out of 7-8 billion people? Good luck!

Thanks, I'll need it. The luck, that is.

Quoting kazan

if you restrict your statistical base to those that are interested in this area of governance and choose by the same method i.e. 3 at random that are interested per country, you may get lucky....

Hmmm... do I agree with this? It sounds like a reasonable thing to say, but I should test it to accurately quantify its degree of scientificity.

Quoting kazan

In short, the 21st Century worldwide public has more pressing interests in their own neighbourhood.

I know, that's true. But I'm asking you (I'm asking everyone, really) how does that make sense? It makes no rational sense.

Quoting kazan

Not having a shot at you

Quoting kazan

Republics, autocracies, oligarchies etc. etc, all have executive problems

Which is why monarchies exist to "dignify" the three efficient powers: the executive power, the legislative power, and the judicial power. Argentina has the latter but not the former: we have the three powers (executive, legislative, judicial) but no fourth power (the royal power) to dignify them (the three efficient powers). It's an odd thing, is what I'm saying.

Quoting kazan

Maybe,the question to ask is "What governance works best for which country's people at any given time?" and give it a name or categorize it when it's working.

Right, but then you end up with scientific problems, because maybe (for example) slavery worked better than capitalism in some specific town of the 19th century in the state of Tennessee or whatever. That doesn't mean anything to me, I'm against slavery on purely moral and Ethical grounds.

Quoting kazan

The realization that politics/policies in some/most countries have world wide effects is another whole bowl of goldfish teetering on the edge of the ledge as well.

Just a thought.

It's a nice thought.

Quoting kazan

Will leave it up to Banno to explain the position/relationship of the Gov - General, Charlie and the Aust parliaments in this constitutional monarchy.... that is what we still call it, isn't it?
Banno's more verbally cost/time efficient.

Tolerant, but not superior, smile

Yeah but he doesn't wanna talk about it, "mate".

Quoting javi2541997

Pfft... there are a lot of things that are "incompatible with the demands and expectations of the worldwide public of the 21st century," and I think a king or queen is less harmful to the people, honestly.

Sure. And you're right. Kings and Queens, Princes and Princesses, generally have no actual influence in efficient matters. Except for Lady Di, also known as Diana, Princess of Wales. Not only was she "less harmful to the people", as you say, I would go even further: she was more beneficial to the people.

Quoting javi2541997

Ethics and a Republic either. :wink: --

Hmmm... Well, it's the Royalty vs Republic debate, isn't it? Man, that one is really tough just from a philosophical standpoint. Is it possible for one to be both a Republican and a Royalist? I don't think so, that doesn't make sense to me. You're either a Republican or a Royalist, you have to choose. Right? Or am I wrong about that? It's an "either, or" type of thing. (O lo uno o lo otro, como decía Kierkegaard).

Quoting javi2541997

Is Maduro an ethical politician to his own people?

No idea. I don't think so, because Republicanism is not the only type of political philosophy that characterizes the situation of Maduro, politics, and his own people.

Quoting javi2541997

It is an old classic debate. Yes, there are strong republics such as Germany or Ireland, but also monarchies that represent the welfare like Denmark and Japan. I mean, it is obvious that the Japanese system (a monarchy) is by far more ethical than Ecuador or Mexico. But, at the same time, our royalty

But see that's my point. Argentina does not have a royalty. Let me ask you this: in your honest opinion, should every country in the world have a royalty? Should there be, for example, a "King of the Planet"? Or should every country have its own royalty?

EDIT: La última parte, en Castellano. Ves, ese es mi punto. La Argentina no tiene una realeza. Así que permitime preguntarte esto: en tu honesta opinión, acaso debería cada país en el mundo tener una realeza? Debiera haber, por ejemplo, un "Rey del Planeta"? O debiera cada país tener su propia realeza?

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Is it possible for one to be both a Republican and a Royalist?

I agree that it is not possible to be a Republican and a royalist at the same time. Each of those systems would depend on the idiosyncrasy of the peoples. I guess—and understand—that one of the pillars' of Argentina's soul is the Republic, and Belgrano, as one of the heroes of the independence, is the collective consciousness of Argentine people.

Should we try to be a republic as well? We tried it two times (1873 and 1931), and both were a complete catastrophe. It didn't work out well because the Republic was basically against Spain's soul. Thus, Catholicism, Unionism, Centralism... We currently have a very leftist government on, and it is doing its best to get a multi-national peninsula. The results are poor and mediocre. I feel like Spain under a republic loses its essence, but a monarchy represents the union between Spaniards. It is not the best option, indeed. There are many issues that still remain: What would happen when Juan Carlos I died? And then, how would Leonor's incumbent be? Etc. I don't see a Republic on the horizon; that's a fact.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Republicanism is not the only type of political philosophy that characterizes the situation of Maduro, politics, and his own people.

I think Maduro is not a representative of anything. Yet he is the president of a sovereign nation, Venezuela, that is a republic. The way he acts is off of 21st demands, but we can't blame the Venezuelan constitution for having such a prick for the grace of the Lord. Then, a republic could also be backwards depending on who is responsible for the management.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

in your honest opinion, should every country in the world have a royalty?

No, no. Because not every nation is prepared to be a monarchy; as well as not all nations are ready to switch to a republic. But this is not necessarily an impediment to being friends. Look at the current diplomatic situation between Spain and Argentina. Javier Milei is clearly more fond of Felipe VI and monarchists than with Pedro Sanchez (a person who obviously roots for republican vibes). Well, as I said before, being royalist or republican would depend on the idiosyncrasy we were grown up with!

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

La Argentina no tiene una realeza. Así que permitime preguntarte esto: en tu honesta opinión, acaso debería cada país en el mundo tener una realeza? Debiera haber, por ejemplo, un "Rey del Planeta"? O debiera cada país tener su propia realeza?

Sí, tío, te entendí genial y haces preguntas muy buenas. No creo que Argentina deba tener una realeza, pero España tampoco convertirse en una republica. Al final, las raíces y la idiosincrasia pesan mucha en el alma y la mentalidad colectiva de cada pueblo.

-- Alas, an international organisation appears to be insufficient for the most relevant matters. Look at the attitude of the UN towards Palestine, for instance. Furthermore, if Australia would have a dispute with Spain because of the eucalyptus, both nations would resolve it bilaterally. No supranational entity can do anything.

Why should Australia listen to the UN rather than the ambassador of Spain? So Spain has the Australian ambassador as well.

Quoting javi2541997

it is doing its best to get a multi-national peninsula.

Hmmm... But Spain was always a multi-national peninsula, is what they would say in response to that. The most obvious example is the Basque Country. But then there are more subtle cases, like Cataluña. You cannot seriously tell me that Cataluña is better than El Reino de Aragón y Castilla. And so it becomes a very strange thing to talk about, especially in English. Especially in a Thread called "Australian politics". Hmmm... is it correct to talk about this, here? Well, they (the Australians) are part of a monarchy, so I would say yes.

But that's not what we were just talking about, @javi2541997. What you and I were just talking about is Hispanidad, not Royalty vs Republic. Here in Argentina, there is a holiday (I can't remember what type of holiday it is, I don't want to say something barbaric), that is called "Día de la Hispanidad". I do not celebrate it myself. Because you said the following:

Quoting javi2541997

Al final, las raíces y la idiosincrasia pesan mucha en el alma y la mentalidad colectiva de cada pueblo.

Yo no siento que la Hispanidad sea parte de mi idiosincrasia. Ni que decir del alma, en la cual no creo. ¿Mentalidad colectiva? ¿Y que sería eso, buen hombre? Que yo sepa, la única mentalidad que tengo es la que está en mi cerebro, disculpe usted mi materialismo. Que existen pueblos, se lo concedo. Es que es una trivialidad decir eso. Ahora, si usted me pregunta "¿Existe la Hispanidad?" Yo que se, buen hombre. Que eso es cosa de poetas, podríamos decir. Que yo sepa, científicamente, ni siquiera está bien definido ese concepto.

Quoting javi2541997

-- Alas, an international organisation appears to be insufficient for the most relevant matters. Look at the attitude of the UN towards Palestine, for instance. Furthermore, if Australia would have a dispute with Spain because of the eucalyptus, both nations would resolve it bilaterally. No supranational entity can do anything.

Well, there is one possible solution, among other possible solutions: what I call "continentalism". Continentalism is the "highest stage" of nationalism. For example, if you are a Spanish nationalist, then you can also be a European continentalist, because Spain is part of Europe. If you're an Australian nationalist, then you can be an Oceanic continentalist, because Australia is part of Oceania. If you're an Argentine nationalist, you can be a Southamerican continentalist, because Argentina is part of South America. So, you see javi, the "Hispanicidad" has nothing to do with this part of the discussion. But somehow it does, because we are having this discussion in English, not Spanish (except for a few fragments from you and me).

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

You cannot seriously tell me that Cataluña is better than El Reino de Aragón y Castilla.

I expect an answer, @javi2541997. And I'll add one more difficulty: your answer has to be related, in some way, to Australian politics.

Or don't answer : )

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Hmmm... But Spain was always a multi-national peninsula, is what they would say in response to that. The most obvious example is the Basque Country. But then there are more subtle cases, like Cataluña.

your answer has to be related, in some way, to Australian politics.

I think only nationalists consider the Basque Country and Catalunya as nations in the pure sense of the word. Spanish—or Iberian—is their true heritage. Well, I could say that a Basque and a Navarre have Indo-European roots. Why not?

Nonetheless, Spain—as the union of Castille and Aragon—is the representative entity of Spaniards, whether Catalans like it or not. For this reason, which is purely logical and makes sense, Australian politics (regarding the eucalyptus) would not be effective if their PM only focuses on a concert region of Spain's corner. Let's say we have to solve the drought in Almería—caused in part by the eucalyptus—and some effectiveness is demanded by the people. Politics should be useful to the people. Therefore, effectiveness would only be possible if the decisions are taken by rightful entities. Australia will reach an agreement with Spain, because the latter is already the rightful nation. This would not be possible if we were still divided into pieces.

Oh, Jesus. I don't know if that makes sense. I tried my best. Don't expect too much from my wisdom and knowledge skills.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Especially in a Thread called "Australian politics". Hmmm... is it correct to talk about this, here? Well, they (the Australians) are part of a monarchy, so I would say yes.

Oh yes, don't worry. Different topics tend to get crossed with each other in the threads.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

For example, if you are a Spanish nationalist, then you can also be a European continentalist, because Spain is part of Europe. If you're an Australian nationalist, then you can be an Oceanic continentalist, because Australia is part of Oceania. If you're an Argentine nationalist, you can be a Southamerican continentalist, because Argentina is part of South America.

I fully agree.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

¿Mentalidad colectiva? ¿Y que sería eso, buen hombre?

Bueno, la mentalidad colectiva podría estar relacionada con los valores, costumbres, ideas... Por ejemplo: Creo que la famosa sobremesa española forma parte de nuestra mentalidad colectiva.

Quoting javi2541997

Nonetheless, Spain—as the union of Castille and Aragon—is the representative entity of Spaniards, whether Catalans like it or not.

Está bien, buen hombre, entiendo su punto. Y se lo concedo. De hecho, yo mismo lo dije antes que usted. El Reino de Castilla y Aragón, en tanto concepto, en tanto idea, simplemente es mejor que el concepto de Catalunya, o Cataluña, etc. Pues que la discusión está aquí entonces: al nivel del lenguaje. Justamente, le pregunto, javi, ¿Usted preferiría que todo el mundo hable Català en vez de Castellano? Porque yo no. Yo estoy dispuesto a cambiar mi vocabulario y todo eso, como todo ciudadano responsable debería, pero yo no voy a dejar de hablar castellano en mi vida cotidiana sólo por el hecho de que me parece "más correcto" empezar a hablar en Català así nomás. Primero que todo, ni siquiera conozco ese idioma, lo único que conozco es de la serie "Merlí" en Netflix. Y traté de seguir la serie en el idioma original, en Català, sin subtítulos Castellanos, y simplemente no entendí nada.

Quoting javi2541997

Bueno, la mentalidad colectiva podría estar relacionada con los valores, costumbres, ideas... Por ejemplo: Creo que la famosa sobremesa española forma parte de nuestra mentalidad colectiva.

Si, no digo que sea imposible, simplemente digo que si existe (y bien podría), no está bien estudiado científicamente. Lo único que hay son teorías sociológicas, psicológicas, biológicas, etc. Pero no tienen mucha cientificidad. No en comparación con la física y la química, por ejemplo.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

¿Usted preferiría que todo el mundo hable Català en vez de Castellano?

Por supuesto que no. Ni tampoco me gustaría perder las especialidades del castellano en cada país. De hecho, el catalán es algo que sólo existe allí y se quedará allí. No va a salir más lejos del puerto de Barcelona, honestamente.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Y traté de seguir la serie en el idioma original, en Català, sin subtítulos Castellanos, y simplemente no entendí nada.

He estado en Cataluña. Hablan catalán a propósito para que no les entiendas, salvo alguna excepción en Barcelona. Con esto obtienen lo contrario, que la gente no se interese.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich I love posting in Spanish with you, yet I think we are not entitled to do so in this thread. It is fine to do it a bit, but the moderators might scold us next time since the forum is an English-speaking site. :smile:

Quoting javi2541997

?Arcane Sandwich
I love posting in Spanish with you, yet I think we are not entitled to do so in this thread. It is fine to do it a bit, but the moderators might scold us next time since the forum is an English-speaking site. :smile:

Fair enough, I'll have to stop by the Spanish section of the Forum, then : )

Tomorrow's News will be like: "Is it Ethical for an Australian man to punch a Roo in the face if the roo in question is attempting what can only be described as a front head-lock on a dog? Stay tuned and find out."

Quoting javi2541997

I love posting in Spanish with you, yet I think we are not entitled to do so in this thread.

Yep. No other languages allowed here.

I remember starting having a conversation in Swedish with a PF member and the PF-NKVD shut it down extremely quickly.

Unfortunately there's not enough Swedes and Finns (or other Nordic people) for a Swedish discussion site. And anyway, Swedish is usually worst for the Finns and the Danes, Norwegians do better.

Quoting ssu

Unfortunately there's not enough Swedes and Finns (or other Nordic people) for a Swedish discussion site. And anyway, Swedish is usually worst for the Finns and the Danes, Norwegians do better.

I got kicked out of another forum for making a very light-hearted joke about Swedes. The joke that I said was: "Between Sweden, Norway and Finland, Sweden is the worst. Why? Because they're not right in the head. Why not? Because they have the most metal bands per capita, and that's a fact."

Instead of laughing, the Admin of the site banned me for nationalism" (yes, he actually wrote that in the email with the decision to ban me, among other nonsense).

Like, come on, you can't take a metalhead joke from another metalhead?

Reply to ssu

There's now a non-English area on TPF. So far it's only Spanish in there but as we're allowing Spanish, we have to allow Swedish and Finnish too. So feel free. I can create the appropriate subcategory (it's one subcategory per language) if desired.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/51/non-english-discussion

Old joke: If someone who speaks two languages is bilingual, and someone who speaks three languages is trilingual, what do you call someone who speaks just one language?

[hide="Reveal"]Australian[/hide].

The best joke about Australia that I heard is that Australia is just British Texas.

I guess Argentina would just be Spanish Texas then, or something like that.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

I guess Argentina would just be Spanish Texas then, or something like that.

Most Australians tend to see themselves as sophisticated city folk, urban hipsters, etc, emulating New York and London rather than any hic desert state. If you travel around Melbourne, most people see themselves in terms very similar to Californians. Ditto Sydney. In fact, I think there used to be an old saying that Sydney is the better half of California.

But up North we do have a Texas-like culture, everything is big and the ideas are often small (with apologies to Austin).

The other aspect of Australia is that the country is so big that most of us never travel to parts of it. I have never been to the North or West of the country. In Melbourne and Sydney you will meet many people who have been to Argentina or France but never been to Darwin or Perth.

Quoting Tom Storm

If you travel around Melbourne...

You'll get better coffee.



Quoting Tom Storm

up North

Funny how our north is like their south. Proximity to the equator?

Quoting Tom Storm

Most Australians tend to see themselves as sophisticated city folk, urban hipsters, etc, emulating New York and London rather than any hic desert state.

They need to read more Bush Poet stuff, like Banjo Paterson.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

The best joke about Australia that I heard is that Australia is just British Texas.

The problem is people tend to think it's not a joke, and that somehow they have a clear, complete view of an entire continent. Australia is nothing like Texas other than the wide open spaces. It's nothing like most places except NZ. Also, Texas is fantastic. LOL.

Paterson was a romantic. Australians live in the city. Always have. Lawson tells the real story.

The City Bushman now drives an oversized ute with a perversely small tray around the suburbs.

And the city seems to suit you, while you rave about the bush.

Quoting AmadeusD

The problem is people tend to think it's not a joke, and that somehow they have a clear, complete view of an entire continent. Australia is nothing like Texas other than the wide open spaces. It's nothing like most places except NZ. Also, Texas is fantastic. LOL.

Wait, are you saying that not everyone in Australia is like Crocodile Dundee? I don't believe you. It's clear that you're lying to me. I'll raise a million dollars just to have Craig Jones beat you up in a BJJ match.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Alas - he already has. LOL

Reply to AmadeusD No way. Seriously? Jokes aside for a moment, I envy you now.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Yeah, i'm not very good hahahaa. That said, I held me own against Kendall Reusing, which is, while a total cheat, a decent feeling against a multiple-world champion.

Quoting AmadeusD

?Arcane Sandwich
Yeah, i'm not very good hahahaa. That said, I held me own against Kendall Reusing, which is, while a total cheat, a decent feeling against a multiple-world champion.

You're rolling with some of the best athletes in the world. And I'm just a blue belt :sad:

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Appreciate it - But i'm a white belt :P I've just gotten lucky (and unlucky - my inability to get graded is a timing issue).

Quoting AmadeusD

?Arcane Sandwich
Appreciate it - But i'm a white belt :P I've just gotten lucky (and unlucky - my inability to get graded is a timing issue).

Dude, if you're training with top-tier athletes like Jones and Reusing, you'll be a black belt before I get my purple belt. I'm seriously jealous :sad:

(Though I'm sure Craig would say that he's not top-tier, he's second-tier. He only sees Silver)

(edited because apparently I forgot how to spell)

Some times it helps to move things around.

Quoting Banno

Paterson was a romantic. Australians live in the city. Always have. Lawson tells the real story.

The City Bushman now drives an oversized ute with a perversely small tray around the suburbs.

And the city seems to suit you, while you rave about the bush.

Sounds like the classic "city vs country" type of thing.

Quoting AmadeusD

The problem is people tend to think it's not a joke, and that somehow they have a clear, complete view of an entire continent.

So Australia is a continent? I think the continent is Oceania, and Australia is one more country that's a part of the Oceanic continent.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

So Australia is a continent?

You are obsessing over an irrelevance. Time to move on.

At the risk of dragging this thread back on topic, I understand from my sources that the AEC is sounding out staff concerning their availability in April.

I'm betting on the 5th or the 12th.

Reply to Tom Storm?

Reply to Banno https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_(continent) and is wrong.

Nevertheless, yes, time to move on.

I support the social media ban in the sense that I think kids shouldn't be privvy to that horseshit, but think it's an utterly ridiculous thing to try to do

I doubt that Labor will be able to gain a majority. So it may well come down to a coalition. Albanese would like to distance himself from the Greens, so he may well be talking to the Teal independents. That would be a move towards the centre.

Unless the Liberal slide to the right reflects the sentiment of the moment. Then ideology will overrule rationality, again. Worst possibility would be an Tampa event.

There's an OP in the SMH admitting that Dutton's nuclear policy is a non-starter but that is irrelevant to it's purpose. By Christopher Pyne.

Quoting Banno

Albanese would like to distance himself from the Greens,

Regardless, I noticed last night that Hanson-Young was talking up the necessity of supporting Albanese over the Coalition. The Greens are losing voters in spades, they need to shift more towards the centre. Wouldn't be surprised to see a Labor-Greens-Teal coalition.

Interesting perspective from Pyne, although I think it presumes that Dutton is playing a kind of three-dimensional chess strategy when I'm sure his attitude was a lot more simplistic than that.

Quoting Banno

I'm betting on the 5th or the 12th.

?Tom Storm?

I haven't heard anything yet.

Quoting Wayfarer

Interesting perspective from Pyne, although I think it presumes that Dutton is playing a kind of three-dimensional chess strategy when I'm sure his attitude was a lot more simplistic than that.

On a par with the dick-waving appeal of AUKUS? True, but then is it his idea or one from the back room?

Reply to Banno well, as I said, more's the pity that nuclear has been made subject to partisan politics. It's too big an issue, but I guess if Dutton looses, that will be the end of debate about it.

Quoting Wayfarer

I guess if Dutton looses, that will be the end of debate about it.

I doubt it. They can easily spend twenty or thirty years passing it between states and federation.

Quoting Wayfarer

more's the pity that nuclear has been made subject to partisan politics.

Also, yes. I agree. I also think if it were left to the market, investment would flow to green energy projects over nuclear. Indeed, perhaps the fastest way to take it of the table would be to open it up to the markets without government support.

Amazing how a little Spanish can rev up a thread.

Regards The Nuke lee ha "Debate", anyone want to speculate on how well/fast the Ex Policeman from Queensland can backpedal, change lanes and direction if there was another Chernobyl or Fukushima between now and the Fed Election? And how loud the White Rooster from State Housing would crow?
Don't gasp/laugh, "Remember Tampa" and the "Earlier GST Attempt". There will be lots of straw grasping in the coming months. And unkept promises made!
At least, we don't have to elect a king/president every electoral cycle. So far!

Life with politics as a condition.


lopsided smile while riding/pedaling the push bike dynamo, for practice.

And it's all what's her name's fault. You know, the Reserve Bank Governor.

laughing but still pedaling

Quoting Banno

I understand from my sources that the AEC is sounding out staff concerning their availability in April.

I'm betting on the 5th or the 12th.

I want to keep learning more about Australian politics: what is the AEC sounding out staff on their availability for? Is it something related to elections?

Quoting kazan

Amazing how a little Spanish can rev up a thread.

Don't ever underestimate the power of the Spanish language as well as the Labour-Greens-Teal coalition in the eventual AU politics, as Reply to Wayfarer explained. :wink:

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Perhaps the admins were Finns and were disgusted about the idea that Sweden would have more heavy metal bands than Finland. :wink:

Reply to Jamal Well, I guess there ought to be at least someone else wanting that, and still my English is better than my Swedish. So thank you, but hold on still. :up:

Quoting Tom Storm

Most Australians tend to see themselves as sophisticated city folk, urban hipsters, etc, emulating New York and London rather than any hic desert state.

I think the stereotype of laid back friendly Australians is quite accurate. It's even more accurate when one compares Australians to the other down under people, the uptight old-school English colonists, that are said to be New Zealanders. (And no, I'm not talking about the Maori's.)

Quoting javi2541997

what is the AEC sounding out staff on their availability for? Is it something related to elections?

that's right - all the folks who man the voting booths and conduct the ballot, many of them volunteers. The latest it can be is May 2025 but it could be April or any time before then.

Quoting javi2541997

what is the AEC sounding out staff on their availability for?

Reply to Wayfarer, yep.

So, that the AEC are checking availability for April indicates that they have some expectation to be running the election. The date for Australian federal elections is decided by the PM telling the Governor General his intent. Unlike the US, the rules are the same for the whole country, and run by the one organisation.

Reply to Wayfarer Thanks. :up:
It is interesting that many of the folks are volunteers. I mean, that's positive. It increases the participation of the people in politics (in my opinion).

Reply to Banno :up: We have similar rules regarding the schedule of the election day. Also, it is run by only one organisation, and the rules apply to all the Peninsula. We have some similarities; interesting indeed.

Reply to javi2541997 Both Parliamentary systems with ceremonial presidents - we call our "president" the Governor General. We have one representative for each division, you seem to have multiple reps.

Reply to Banno Yes.

Our President is the head of the government; thus, what you call Governor General.

Our King is the head of the state. A symbolic non-political figure.

Also, we have 17 representatives for each region. Thus, what you refer to as "division," I guess.

Unless as "divisions" you might refer to the seats of the Parliament. Represented by the folks who won the district. In this case, yes we have multiple reps.

@javi2541997 Let's conquer Australia and let's decide their politics for them. We'll play AC/DC so that they don't resist our conquest of their country.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich I know I would sound like an alcoholic, but the first Australian thing that comes to my mind is Foster's beer, not AC/DC.

Nope. I would not conquer Australia. I am fond of the country and Aussie people, and they are clearly a rightful and straight country. They do not do weird things; either they aren't a threat to the rest of the world. I can't ask them anything but learning from them.

The ambassador to Spain is Rosemary Morris-Castico, and she holds a bachelor of arts. Probably, she is more qualified to do politics in my territory than any other mate with a suit in Congress. I think the appointment of Rosemary was a great decision done by the AU government. Look she does great things—as an artist she is—like visiting the Royal Tapestry Factory: https://www.instagram.com/p/DCEqhNPi3iL/?img_index=1

There are more chances of my country being conquered by the European Central Bank, honestly.

Quoting javi2541997

I know I would sound like an alcoholic, but the first Australian thing that comes to my mind is Foster's beer, not AC/DC.

This is a Thread about Australian politics, I don't think that anyone minds if someone sound like an alcoholic.

(Hey, Craig Jones gets away with jokes about "nose beer" on public television, you folks gotta let me get away with a joke about alcohol).

Quoting javi2541997

Nope. I would not conquer Australia

I would. Why not? Australians "conquered" part of Paraguay. Their descendants are Australian Paraguayans.

Quoting javi2541997

I am fond of the country and Aussie people, and they are clearly a rightful and straight country. They do not do weird things; either they aren't a threat to the rest of the world. I can't ask them anything but learning from them.

I've been told that they're urban, sophisticated, hip people. They like coffee, they're civilized, they think highly of Henry Lawson, and they're somewhat critical of Banjo Paterson. In short, they're not hicks living in the bush, as if Australia were really British Texas. That's an inaccurate portrayal of what Australians are like. They're more like Londoners, not Dubliners. And, in the coastal cities, they have that Californian, Red Hot Chilli Pepers / Surf Rock Revival vibe going on. Or maybe I'm just saying a few accurate and a lot of inaccurate things about @Banno. I can't exactly make an accurate generalization about Australians on the basis of my ignorant beliefs and limited interactions with them. Though I would love to visit Australia, that's for sure. How could I not? I grew up surrounded by Eucalyptus trees. No roos, though. Not even a few joeys. Though I suppose that I could order one by mail, right? The problem is, where do I keep it once it grows up? Maybe a zoo, but that's cruel, so no. I'm against zoos. I'm against the very concept of a zoo, no matter how well-intended such a concept might be.

Besides, "roo jokes" are really stupid, at least by the humoristic standards of 2025. And I think that most Australians would agree with me on that. Maybe those jokes were funny in like, I don't know, the 1980's. It's been almost fifty years since. Like, tourists are really stupid in that regard, and they make us, non-Australians, look bad. A friend of mine travelled to Australia a few months ago. I told him, in a very serious tone: whatever you do, do not make jokes about kangaroos. Australians are going to think that you're stupid if you make a kangaroo joke. Like, put yourself in their shoes, for a moment. Can you imagine how many times a clueless foreigner just happily drops the "kangaroo thing" in the middle of a casual conversation, as if kangaroos were something to just talk about? Why would you, a foreigner, assume that some random local would have any interest, let alone any knowledge, about the local fauna? Yes, marsupials are fascinating, we all get that. If it's marsupials that you want to talk about with random Australians, maybe you'd get a better reaction if you asked them about the Drop Bear.

Or, you know, just talk to them like a normal person. Try to see if they let you get away with some inappropriate jokes. Don't do that with Swedes though, they'll get angry at you.

EDIT: :

[hide="The best roo joke in the world"]Question: Why did the roo hesistate?
Answer: Because he didn't want to jump to a conclusion!

I stole that joke myself, I'm quite proud of that.[/hide]

Quoting Banno

Trouble is, The Liberal Party of Australia is not.

As von Clausewitz noted : “War is a continuation of politics by other means”. But its corollary might be : "Politics is war by other means". And war tends to go to extremes : e.g. from a traditional shooting war toward "war to end all war" : the nuclear option.

In the US, gentlemanly democratic politics has devolved toward the "final option". As an us-vs-them political war escalates, each side pushes the other toward an extreme position. In the US, Liberals tend toward Communism, and Conservatives trend toward Fascism. The January 6 "insurrection" probably only stopped short of a declaration of civil war, because both sides know from recent history how "open" (unrestrained) violence can devastate both sides.

Wikipedia says that Australia has a "mild" two party system. Like the US, third parties haven't had much success. Possibly, because the Three Body Problem is too confusing for the hoi polloi of a dumbed-down democracy. In theory, a multi-party system might dilute the polarization of politics . . . . or might make it even more perplexing.

Since I'm a philosophical pacifist, I agree with Shakespeare's Mercutio : "a pox on both your houses". :joke:

Quoting javi2541997

but the first Australian thing that comes to my mind is Foster's beer, not AC/DC.

I don't think anyone here drinks Fosters. Most Australians I know drink imported beers like Asahi or Corona. Different in the country I'd imagine. ACDC? The US and Europe are their biggest markets. As I understand it, only one of the band was born in Australia, the rest are from the British Isles. :wink:

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Lawson and Patterson are historical relics of a bygone day. Most Australians under 50 would probably not have heard of them. I have never heard a kangaroo joke in my life. Australians of my generation generally ignored their own culture and embraced overseas books, films and food. When Crocodile Dundee came out, many of my friends initially refused to see it as it was dealing in lazy cliches about the bush held mainly by American tourists. We saw Paul Hogan as pandering to that demographic to make a quick buck. Which he proceeded to do. Many bucks indeed.

Quoting Tom Storm

We saw Paul Hogan as pandering to that demographic to make a quick buck. Which he proceeded to do. Many bucks indeed.

I think that Crocodile Dundee created the stereotype, the one we're jokingly talking about, at least. Or at the very least, it reinforced it.

I prefer to resort to other cinematographic sources for my mistaken beliefs about Australia. Mad Max, in particular.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

I think that Crocodile Dundee created the stereotype,

No. The stereotype was decades old. Which is why we resented its use.

Reply to Tom Storm I see.

Reply to Tom Storm OMG! You just pointed out a national concern. We can't let Australians down in this matter. I would like to write a letter to Anthony Albanese asking if he is able to have a meeting with me in his busy political agenda. Environmental issues are an important issue, indeed, but I think every country of the world should promote their national products. I don't want to look like a nationalist here because that's another thing. I mean, I would feel sad if the average Spaniard would prefer to eat sushi rather than paella. :yawn:

I bought a bottle of Australian wine a few weeks ago. It was harvested and manufactured in Victoria (state). Thanks to that Victorian mates, I delightfully tasted an amazing wine on an autumn evening in my house. :heart:

Conclusion: I think one of the main purposes of Australian politics should be the defence of national products such as Fosters. Furthermore, Trump is about to sit on the White House's couch, and his reckless mind would probably put tariffs on Fosters barrels. :roll:

Quoting javi2541997

Conclusion: I think one of the main purposes of Australian politics should be the defence of national products such as Fosters.

Nah. I disagree. As a non-Australian, I believe that Australians should continue to exploit themselves in cinema, if only to fulfill my questionable tastes in entertainment, and I say that as an equally questionable consumer.

Or they should keep discussing their energetic policy in general, I dunno.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich, Quoting javi2541997

I know I would sound like an alcoholic, but the first Australian thing that comes to my mind is Foster's beer, not AC/DC.

Neither was that popular in Australia; along with Neighbours, these were more exported jokes: "What's the worst thing we can get the those silly pommy bastards to pay for?"

Certainly no one here drinks Fosters. 'Orid stuff.

Quoting Tom Storm

I don't think anyone here drinks Fosters.

I see you made the same point.

Quoting Tom Storm

Lawson and Patterson are historical relics of a bygone day.

Lawson vs. Patterson was a part of the culture wars in the eighties. Being over fifty I can recite a few Patterson poems by heart, but only pieces from Lawson, this despite being on Lawson's side.

Quoting Banno

these were more exported jokes: "What's the worst thing we can get the those silly pommy bastards to pay for?"

Careful, mate. You don't know what you're asking when you ask that sort of question. Remember, we have Eucalyptus here, but no Australian fauna, and no Australian people...

...yet.

Quoting Gnomon

Like the US, third parties haven't had much success.

Actually they do. The Coalition - the conservatives - have 30 Senators, while Labor has 25. Labor is reliant on eleven Greens or 6 independents to maintain supply and confidence.

This serves us by mitigating against the bifurcation found in US (and UK) politics. The trend at present is for the Liberal Party to move to the right, leaving room for an increase in the number of genuinely liberal independents, and Labor is forced to compromise with the greens while attempting to maintain a differentiation form them.

In the forthcoming election, the Senate will in many ways be more interesting to watch than the Reps.

Quoting Banno

Lawson vs. Patterson was a part of the culture wars in the eighties.

I must have been away that day. :wink: What was the point of that fight? I was in the Keating versus Hawke stoush back then.

Out of curiosity, I read most of Lawson's stories and a few Patterson pieces when I was a voracious reader in the 1980's but then I also tired to read Xavier Herbert...

Reply to Tom Storm
The Banjo and the Bard.
Certain elements wanted Patterson taught in schools, but not so much Lawson. Can't have kids leaning about revolution:

Faces in the street:
Once I cried: ‘Oh, God Almighty! if Thy might doth still endure,
Now show me in a vision for the wrongs of Earth a cure.’
And, lo! with shops all shuttered I beheld a city’s street,
And in the warning distance heard the tramp of many feet,
Coming near, coming near,
To a drum’s dull distant beat,
And soon I saw the army that was marching down the street.

Then, like a swollen river that has broken bank and wall,
The human flood came pouring with the red flags over all,
And kindled eyes all blazing bright with revolution’s heat,
And flashing swords reflecting rigid faces in the street.
Pouring on, pouring on,
To a drum’s loud threatening beat,
And the war-hymns and the cheering of the people in the street.

And so it must be while the world goes rolling round its course,
The warning pen shall write in vain, the warning voice grow hoarse,
But not until a city feels Red Revolution’s feet
Shall its sad people miss awhile the terrors of the street—
The dreadful everlasting strife
For scarcely clothes and meat
In that pent track of living death—the city’s cruel street.

Reply to Banno Makes sense.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

We'll play AC/DC

'You're the Voice' would be preferable.

Quoting javi2541997

It is interesting that many of the folks are volunteers. I mean, that's positive. It increases the participation of the people in politics (in my opinion).

However, shouldn't be forgotten that voting is mandatory. When my son moved permanently to the US, he would regularly receive fine notices for not voting via our Australian address, until I pestered him to file the requisite forms and get taken off the electoral roll. Although I think mandatory voting is a good thing, overall, even though there's a certain kind of paradox to it (and Australia is not unique in that respect.)

Quoting Banno

Certainly no one here drinks Fosters

Especially with the hundreds of beer varieties on offer at virtually every suburban bottleshop.

Quoting Wayfarer

'You're the Voice' would be preferable.

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. Everything has limits, including my appreciation for Australia's gifts to the world. John Farnham's music is not one of them. A gift, that is. It's more like a curse, I would argue.

For what it's worth, I think that pop music in general is bad. Like, aesthetically, it just seems too low-brow to my mind. I can't see what the redeeming qualities would be in that sort of music.

Quoting javi2541997

Environmental issues are an important issue, indeed, but I think every country of the world should promote their national products. I

Well, amongst Australian national products are institutional racism and laziness - we don't need to promote these. I don't drink alcohol, but in the days when I did, I rarely drank beer or wine. I actually found that there was some marvellous Tasmanian made whisky. But for the most part, I supported Scotland (J&B) and Ireland (Jameson's). I was never a connoisseur.

Quoting Tom Storm

Well, amongst Australian national products are institutional racism and laziness - we don't need to promote these.

Oh man, this Thread got really grim all of the sudden. It started out as talk about energy policy. But yeah, I obviously see your point, @Tom Storm

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

It's more like a curse, I would argue.

There's no accounting for taste, especially in popular music. Some people like Neil Diamond.

Quoting Banno

Actually they do. The Coalition - the conservatives - have 30 Senators, while Labor has 25. Labor is reliant on eleven Greens or 6 independents to maintain supply and confidence.

Great! The US Green Party in 2024 held 153 elected offices in 21 states. Unfortunately, that is just a fraction of the total. The presidential candidate got 0.4% of the national vote. So, while their moral sway may be significant, their political influence is minimal. :meh:

PS___ Speaking of beer, Bud Light lost a lot of monetary votes, due to their use of a transgender person in an ad. In politics, there may be a financial accounting for taste.

Reply to Gnomon Yes, the voting systems here (and in most other places) are far more proportional. Again, that seems to be a part of the bifurcation. Greens here get about 15% of the vote.

Bud Light is not a beer.

Quoting Tom Storm

Most Australians I know drink imported beers like Asahi or Corona.

Sometimes, but mostly I drink Coopers Pale Ale. I guess I'm not most Australians.

Reply to Janus Yes, Coopers comes up a bit too.

Reply to Tom Storm :up:

Quoting Tom Storm

Most Australians I know drink imported beers like Asahi or Corona.

You're in Melbourne, then.

Quoting Tom Storm

Coopers comes up a bit too.

Especially if you drink too much.

And this:

The Pints vs Schooners Debate

Western Australia: 95% Pints, 3% Schooners
South Australia: 83% Pints, 10% Schooners
Tasmania: 67% Pints, 32% Schooners
Victoria: 50% Pints, 43% Schooners
New South Wales: 46% Pints, 43% Schooners
Queensland: 44% Pints, 51% Schooners
ACT: 42% Pints, 55% Schooners
Northern Territory: 27% Pints, 65% Schooners

Pfff. I bet none of you saw the movie Outback Vampires. And you have the nerve to call yourselves Australians.

Quoting Banno

Most Australians I know drink imported beers like Asahi or Corona.
— Tom Storm
You're in Melbourne, then.

Yes, I'm a black-clad wanker, like the rest

Quoting Banno

Coopers comes up a bit too.
— Tom Storm
Especially if you drink too much.

I'll meet you in the vomitorium.

Quoting Tom Storm

Yes, I'm a black-clad wanker, like the rest

A wank-led lad?

Reply to Janus Or a lad-led wank...

Reply to Tom Storm :wink: But you do have the best coffee.

Although I hate to admit it, Melbourne city is winning in liveability over Sydney, and has done for a decade or so. Sydney is comparatively dirty, crowded and impersonal. But it does have the Harbour, whereas Melbourne only has that septic creek.

Recall this? Philosopher Alain de Botton says Brisbane offers 'chaotic ugliness'

Reply to Banno Yeah, I live in the centre of Melbourne's CBD. It seems quieter than Richmond or Fitzroy. Nice for walks and close to all kinds of expensive shit. I like Sydney - used to stay in Potts Point. lovely place. I quite like Brisbane, but like Alain, it's been 10 years since I was there. I like Canberra too - it feels like a university campus town.

Reply to Tom Storm Perth is probably my favourite. But Canberra is not too bad.

Quoting Banno

Recall this? Philosopher Alain de Botton says Brisbane offers 'chaotic ugliness'

I'll take his word over yours. "Chaotic ugliness" sounds like a fascinating concept.

Back to the news. 40 more Bushmasters, to be armed with "long range" missiles.

Reply to Tom Storm :up: That's the way forward!

Reply to Banno "Bushmaster" is an ironic name for an Australian tank, isn't it? Their next line of tanks will be called "Outbackmasters". The Bushmasters will patrol the bush, and the Outbackmasters will patrol the Outback.

EDIT: Apparently they're not technically "tanks", but I'm too lazy to look up what the technical term is for a military vehicle to be used in the bush.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Bushmaster" is an ironic name for an Australian tank, isn't it?

I thought is was an amusing name - sounds more like a Chinese Swiss army knife knock off you might find at Kmart in a grubby blister pack for $4.99.

So, is the bush like this super dangerous place that needs the presence of several military vehicles known as "Bushmasters"?

If so, would the Outback need "Outbackmasters"?

I don’t know the difference between the bush and the outback. I use them interchangeably if I have to use them. But generally I talk about going to ‘the country.’

Quoting Tom Storm

I don’t know the difference between the bush and the outback.

I have a similar problem with the Pampas and the Patagonia. I can distinguish them if I see them separately, either in person or in visual recordings (photographs, cinema, etc.). But there's a "fuzzy zone" in the middle where it's genuinely impossible to discern where one of them ends and the other one begins. As David Lewis famously said of the Outback:

David Lewis (1986) :The only intelligible account of vagueness locates it in our thought and language. The reason it's vague where the outback begins is not that there's this thing, the outback, with imprecise borders; rather there are many things, with different borders, and nobody has been fool enough to try to enforce a choice of one of them as the official referent of the word `outback.' Vagueness is semantic indecision.

Out back was where the dunny was situated in the Australian burgs until septic tanks and sewerage systems. And the Bush was closer at hand if the lady was prudish. No need to leave home, in the good ol' days, to be in either. And no semantic indecision defining the difference, unless you too were prudish.

smile

Have led a sheltered life regards pop bands from Scant'ia. Only know one from each, A-ha, Abba, Nightwish. Danish bands ???? Oh, and "Europe", wherever they were from...a Continental band, perhaps?
Argentinian bands ???? Sorry, Arcane, but ignorance is no excuse. Will check out early Sui Generis and give it due consideration, that is against the Argentinian political scene/upheavals of that time. Having Googled Spanish bands so as to not leave out Javi, not sure now if Goo gal can distinguish between bands that sing in the Spanish language and bands originating from Spanish speaking countries. Will work on it. Sorry, Javi, Spain's cultural contributions don't extend to metal/rock/etc bands for this ignoramus. More Cervantes, Picasso, flamenco type of Spanish cultural interests. Might mature/ grow up one day, generally no time soon if it can be helped.
Midnight Oil deserves a mention in an Australian Politics thread ( that's veered into rock/metal/ pop bands) for lyric content and personnel reasons.

unrepentant smile

Quoting kazan

Sorry, Javi, Spain's cultural contributions don't extend to metal/rock/etc bands for this ignoramus. More Cervantes, Picasso, flamenco type of Spanish cultural interests...

I am deeply sorry for the small contribution of my nation to metal/rock/etc musical bands. Yes, we are better at other things. I will ask Rosemary (again, your stunning and very competent ambassador in Spain) if I could gift a beautiful surrealist painting by Dalí. I honestly believe it is a good start for diplomatic relationships. Looking forward to what is going on with Australian politics! I am very interested in this thread because I got fond of the country.

Ah, on the other hand, it is interesting to see that environmental issues are actually a key factor. Here happened the same on the municipal elections. People went to vote considering the best option to not keep screwing the planet. We don't act like the U.S.

Frame that truth...

Quoting Tom Storm

I don’t know the difference between the bush and the outback. I use them interchangeably if I have to use them. But generally I talk about going to ‘the country.’

When I was a kid living in Epping (a suburb of Sydney) there were corridors of bush (which I believe still mostly exist). I used to spend all day from breakfast to dinner from the age of about seven playing in the bush.

My family used to go on very primitive road trips to the outback (Nyngan, Bourke, Tilpa, Wilcannia, Broken Hill, Coonabarabran, Lightning Ridge, White Cliffs, etc, etc.).

So, I think it is understandable that I don't see them as being the same at all.

@javi2541997,

The Christ Radiant painting, please.... If that's not available, the Melting Watch, please....

@Janus,
Very relatable. It's not bush or outback or city, it's how you situate yourself and your life.

relatively smiling

Quoting kazan

Very relatable. It's not bush or outback or city, it's how you situate yourself and your life.

:up: I just noticed I failed to specify that I was in the bush on weekends, not during the week so much.

Quoting Janus

When I was a kid living in Epping (a suburb of Sydney) there were corridors of bush (which I believe still mostly exist). I used to spend all day from breakfast to dinner from the age of about seven playing in the bush.

My family used to go on very primitive road trips to the outback (Nyngan, Bourke, Tilpa, Wilcannia, Broken Hill, Coonabarabran, Lightning Ridge, White Cliffs, etc, etc.).

I had pretty much the same experience - growing up in the Dandenong ranges and off to places like Broken Hill for road trips. I still can't tell the difference. :wink:

I was going to say to Reply to Arcane Sandwich That if I thought about it at all, I always took 'outback' to be more remote and often barren or dry, while 'bush' implies greenery and perhaps closer proximity to towns or cities. I suspect regular travellers in Australia probably don't use the terms much and are likely to be more precise in their descriptions, as in, going to 'the remote Kimberly' or 'far north Queensland'.

Reply to Janus Reply to kazan Reply to Tom Storm

:up:

Very informative and helpful, the distinction between bush and outback is interesting indeed. New lesson learned. I think I have never heard of those words, so I guess it is Australian slang.

I am trying to contextualise it in my reality; I live in a suburb (called "Vallecas") and since "bush" implies greenery, as @Tom Storm points out, I guess I have some bush in the suburb I live in.

And, also yes, I used to play there when I was a kid, as well as @Janus.

My local "bush:"

https://maps.app.goo.gl/tk43Mu1AzFroVUM28

Reply to javi2541997 :up: This is a view of area where my parents built their home. But I don't call it the bush - it's too close to suburbia and cities, despite its lushness.

Reply to Tom Storm Pretty! It seems to be a quiet and cosy place. If I am not mistaken, those are the famous eucalyptus, right? The tree that shouldn't be disregarded in Australian politics! :cool:

Quoting kazan

Argentinian bands ???? Sorry, Arcane, but ignorance is no excuse. Will check out early Sui Generis and give it due consideration, that is against the Argentinian political scene/upheavals of that time.

I don't listen to Sui Generis myself. I have nothing against them or their fans, but it's just not my thing. I like heavy metal and punk rock, among a few other genres. The first argentine metal band was V8, formed in 1979. I'd say that Horcas and Almafuerte were the best metal bands after V8 split up. As for punk rock, I'd say that the best band is Las Manos de Filippi, though they're more of a ska-punk / fusion sort of band with an extremely heavy-handed political message built into their very core. A message that I happen to agree with, for the most part:



I also listen to some argentine folk music, like José Larralde.

As for bands from Spain, I like the punk band Ska-P:



@Banno @@Tom Storm @kazan @Janus since we're talking about the difference between the bush and the outback, this relates to the discussion about Banjo Paterson. Here's my question. If Paterson romanticized the bush, is there any Australian poet that has romanticized the outback? Or was Paterson referring to both, the bush and the outback, as if they composed "the country", as distinct from "the city" as envisioned by Lawson?

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Or was Paterson referring to both, the bush and the outback, as if they composed "the country", as distinct from "the city" as envisioned by Lawson?

No idea.

Reply to Tom Storm But if you had to guess, or if you had to argue for any philosophical position in that sort of debate, what would be the best thing to say? I'm not asking for your personal opinion, though I'd listen to it, if you cared to share it.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Well, I can't l say I am familiar with Patterson's work so there is that. At the time he was writing, the remote parts of Australia were also called the "Never-Never" and "back o' Bourke." One of the more famous books (turned into a film) was Jeannie Gunn's 1908 novel, "We of the Never-Never" which I read 40 years ago and have forgotten, like most novels I read.

Reply to Tom Storm OK, let me ask you a different question, then. Culturally, does the Billabong have the same "status" as the bush and the outback?

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Culturally, does the Billabong have the same "status" as the bush and the outback?

I don't know what the 'same status' means here. I would imagine most younger people (under 40) do not know what a billabong is and apart from appearing in an old song, it is not a word used much, if ever. Outback may still be used in general conversation, billabong, not so much.

Quoting Tom Storm

I would imagine most younger people (under 40) do not know what a billabong is and apart from appearing in an old song, it is not a word used much, if ever.

Are you sure?

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=billabong%2C+outback&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3

Reply to Banno Woa...

Reply to Banno I added "bush", check it out:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=billabong%2Coutback%2Cbush&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Are you sure?

Fairly sure.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Are you surprised? Think about it.

Quoting Tom Storm

Fairly sure.

What do you mean by that? 100% sure? Or less than 100%?

Quoting Banno

Are you surprised? Think about it.

But then why are you on Lawson's side instead of Paterson's? I don't get it. Can you explain it to me?

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

What do you mean by that. 100% sure? Or less than 100%?

WTF? I am never 100% sure of anything and I don't use percentages to qualify any ideas i hold.

Bear in mind Billabong has been a popular brand of sports wear so the name has recognition if nothing else.

Quoting Tom Storm

WTF? I am never 100% sure of anything and I don't use percentages to qualify any ideas i hold.

OK. Sure, you do you. And I will do me. Fair enough.

Quoting Tom Storm

Bear in mind Billabong has been a popular brand of sports wear so the name has recognition if nothing else.

Yeah but I just found one that has nothing to do with that. @Banno check this out:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=paterson%2Clawson&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3

Reply to Arcane Sandwich I'm not really a graph guy.

Quoting Tom Storm

I'm not really a graph guy.

Me either, but @Banno is the one who appealed to that instrument, so, that's what we're using right now. It doesn't mean anything by itself, the instrument. Because that is what a graph is: an instrument.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich :up:

Reply to Banno How far do you think Dutton will go emulating Trump-style politics as we head towards the election and how do you think it will play where it matters? Like many, I've generally held that opposition leaders don't win elections, governments lose them.

Quoting Tom Storm

I've generally held that opposition leaders don't win elections, governments lose them.

In other words, you believe in Westminster wisdom, so to speak.

Oh man, this next one is really dark. @Banno check it out:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=paterson%2Clawson%2Cwestminster&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3

This one is even worse, whatever it may signify:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/

EDIT: I'll summarize the one about "Albert Einstein, Sherlock Holmes, Frankenstein" as search terms, to the best of my ability. The current results are, more or less: 1) Frankenstein, 2) Sherlock Holmes, 3) Albert Einstein.

So, the lesson here is that people today pay more attention to fictional characters than to real people. Right? Or is there a different moral lesson to this particular story?

Reply to Tom Storm My general view is that the Liberal Party is opportunistic, run by Old Boys who live by their own Entitlement. When forced to make policy, which they hate to do, they reach for vaguely liberal, market ideology. They studied Law, and sometimes economics, but never science, let alone humanities.

They like Dutton because he is from Queensland, has a certain machismo and never had an original thought.

Dutton learned at the feet of Abbott, and will follow that playbook.

Reply to Banno Abbott seems consumed by Jordan Petersonesque ideology and Western Civilization style chauvinism. I met him for work a few years ago and he was present, funny, charming and smart. The opposite of his public persona.

Reply to Tom Storm They are all present, funny, charming and smart...

But in answer to your question, Dutton is I think more like Abbott than Trump.

Quoting Banno

They are all present, funny, charming and smart...

Hmm, not the ones I have met. But it's only been a few. (edited) On reflection you are probably right.

Quoting Banno

Dutton is I think more like Abbott than Trump.

I think Dutton lacks the barnstorming showbiz persona to be like Trump. But I am thinking more about extravagant claims and blatant lies, stunts and fear mongering. They all do this, but the magnitude has escalated radically under Trump, who seems to have ascended the Parnassus of bullshit.

Quoting Tom Storm

But I am thinking more about extravagant claims and blatant lies, stunts and fear mongering.

...all in Abbott's record.

The issue is, will the Australian population be taken in, in sufficient numbers, for the Liberal Party to gain an absolute majority? They have been sliding slowly into conservatism for a long while, and the disenfranchised middle class are retaliating through the teal independents. Liberal failure to address energy, housing and environmental issues in their last government hangs over their heads still, and looks unlikely to change.

Australians have a natural, inveterate aversion to smart arses not shared by 'mercans. I hope imitating a Trump-like campaign would just increase the disenfranchisement of their middle ground.

Look at Clive Palmer, $100 million for a single Senate seat.

Quoting Banno

Australians have a natural, inveterate aversion to smart arses not shared by 'mercans. I hope imitating a Trump-like campaign would just increase the disenfranchisement of their middle ground.

Yes, I think this is right. I hope he tries it and gets an electoral excoriation.

Quoting Banno

They have been sliding slowly into conservatism for a long while, and the disenfranchised middle class are retaliating through the teal independents.

Yep.

Quoting Banno

The issue is, will the Australian population be taken in, in sufficient numbers, for the Liberal Party to gain an absolute majority?

Doubt it. I can't see a lot of energy getting behind Dutton.

What is your take on Albo?

Quoting Tom Storm

Albo...

... lacks the arrogance of the historically most successful ALP leaders. And I can't decide if that is a negative or a positive.

He's been unwilling to make strong policy decisions. Negative gearing should have been changed, Aukus reconsidered, and long overdue reforms in health and eduction implemented.

But again, perhaps keeping away from controversy will work.

But it's dull.

Quoting Banno

... lacks the arrogance of the historically most successful ALP leaders. And I can't decide if that is a negative or a positive.

:rofl:

Quoting Banno

But it's dull.

Yep.

Left | Right | Out

An analysis of how Australian voters see their position on the left-right scale. Age, property and god are conservative, while the educated tend to the left. The central party in Australia is the ALP, the Libs leaning to the right and the greens to the left (see fig. 1.)

Yes, the socialist party is seen as most central. Australians do have a preference for socialist policy, quite a difference to the US.

Quoting Banno

Australians do have a preference for socialist policy

Australian philosophers nowadays seem to have a preference for the work of Alain Badiou. Except for the rogue Deleuzians and rogue post-Deleuzians that seem to visit this Forum regularly, which seem to be much more joyful than Badiou-ians.

@Banno,
"Australians do .....socialist policy..."

Disagree to the extent that, lately, that preference seems to be on the decline (or isn't being offered by major political parties capable of seeing it through), at least for large govt ownership/involvement in nation building and maintaining projects that have been allowed to be franchised out to private capital while lowering personal income taxes has been cited as more important.

There is only a need for higher disposable income if private corporations are allowed to set the citizens' costs of common necessities of life and their wages.

Agree though, to the extent that, lately, that preference only extends to little socialistic frills like small scale govt investment in extra social housing, acknowledgement of climate change and subsequent "encouragement" of (some more) EV cars and turning off lights when not being used. That is, the little feel good social consciousness socialist policies that cost but don't make much money. Certainly not the massive industry size socialist policies that could lower living costs across the nation.

Why? Everyone knows governments can only spend money, they couldn't possibly run an industry, apparently....Thatcher-Reaganomics propaganda being hung onto by the business sector, plus the constant citing of the general direction of world ( read USA educated) investment policy boogeyman.

Maybe good governance should look out, long term, for its citizens/those within its jurisdictional limits, and uses foreign policies to blend that good governance acceptably into the world scene. Instead we get governance based on 3 year long reelection political decision making with very limited trust in oppositions.

Just a thought.

questioning eyebrow lift

Totally unrealistic thought, of course.

sad smile

Quoting kazan

Totally unrealistic thought, of course.

sad smile

Let me help you out there, fellow inhabitant of the Southern Hemisphere. A totally unrealistic thought is nothing to despise. As an Oceanian (or as an Australian) you might perhaps connect it to the concept of the Dreamtime. It is similar to what the ancient Greeks called Xaos (Chaos), it is the thing that existed before the gods, and it existed even before the titans. It is what Heidegger calls "Being", the stuff of poets and philosophers alike.

With all of that in mind, and even if it's scientifically incorrect, there is no reason to smile sadly about having a totally unrealistic thought. Quite the contrary, in fact. It should be reason enough to happily frown.

@Arcane Sandwich,

Expression of one's meaning by language of opposite or different tendency,especially simulated adoption of another's point of view for purpose of....( fill in your own word or phrase)

A suggestion: self deprecating humour

hopeful smile

Quoting Banno

Age, property and god are conservative, while the educated tend to the left.

It was expected, as well as most countries of the EU zone. Most of the greens are also leaning to the left here. It is understandable since traditional conservatives lean toward reactionary political parties that deny climate change and even blame social democrats for a fire or floods.

Quoting Banno

Australians do have a preference for socialist policy, quite a difference to the US.

Because socialist or leftist policies do exist in AU. Although Elon Musk is continuing to show his dementia, socialism per se never existed there. They never had a 'labour' party like in the UK or AU; neither did they have social democrats like in Sweden, Spain, Portugal, or Germany.

@javi2541997,

What is called out or considered in Aus politics as socialist politics has changed over the years.
Once, considered to be the same as communist, its meaning has nuanced in the public's mind more towards social consciousness.
But for some older socialist diehards, it still is about citizens government ownership economics set in a democratic political state.

Swimming against the latest world tide.

Smile

Reply to kazan Yeah, good brief summary, Kazan. :up:

I guess most social democrats went from Marxism or communism to a modern socialist perspective. Some of them no longer call themselves 'socialists' but 'social democrats.'
That wave started in the Nordic countries around the 1960s or 1970s and spread all over the world, with the only exception of the U.S.A. (because they don't know what social democracy is.)

Quoting kazan

citizens government ownership economics set in a democratic political state.

Yeah, exactly. The classic battle between people and enterprises; we and them; the mass and the elite. Ah, beautiful. Isn't it? Imagine your country never experienced some of those historical features. We can be proud of being Europeans or Australians too!

Quoting kazan

for purpose of....( fill in your own word or phrase)

For the purpose of understanding how the Universe (Reality itself) itself works? Sounds good enough enough to my ear, at least.

Quoting kazan

A suggestion: self deprecating humour

hopeful smile

Self-deprecating humor in my own case? My very existence seems to be self-deprecating humor, at least part of the time.

Quoting javi2541997

Yeah, exactly. The classic battle between people and enterprises; we and them; the mass and the elite. Ah, beautiful. Isn't it?

I used to believe that, but it's a simplistic and reductionist thing to believe. I mean, where do you place the Royalty and the nobility in that analysis? Are they "the people"? Are they "the enterprises"? I guess you could say that they're "the elite", but they're not the same kind of elite that the enterprises are. I don't think that Lady Di, for example, was bad for the people of Wales. She was actually good for the Welsh people.

Where would one place the Pope in the classic battle between people and enterprises? Where would one place religion in general? Not just Christianity in general, not even Monotheistic religions in general. Where would one place religions like Hinduism or Buddhism in the "we and them, masses and the elite" battle?

All I'm saying is that the reality of politics cannot be reduced to the "mass vs the elite" battle, IMHO. I mean, some musicians (i.e., the Rolling Stones) and some athletes (i.e., Lionel Messi) are millionaires. Does that automatically turn them into oppressors of the poor? I don't think so.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

I mean, where do you place the Royalty and the nobility in that analysis? Are they "the people"? Are they "the enterprises"?

The people vs bourgeois. A classic match in European societies. I can't think of a country that is the exception to the rule. It has been the same power struggle since the 19th century. Back in the day, the people called "nobleman" to mates who looked like Elon Musk in our modern era. No doubt about that!

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Where would one place the Pope in the classic battle between people and enterprises?

They are not even related or connected to the same struggle which is the extension and limitations of the rule of the capital. What is the rule of the Pope on increasing the income or monopolising the market? None. Well, yes, back in the day he used to fund wars. But that was a long time ago.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Where would one place religions like Hinduism or Buddhism in the "we and them, masses and the elite" battle?

Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc. Is another expression of masses themselves...
.Quoting Arcane Sandwich

All I'm saying is that the reality of politics cannot be reduced to the "mass vs the elite" battle, IMHO. I mean, some musicians (i.e., the Rolling Stones) and some athletes (i.e., Lionel Messi) are millionaires. Does that automatically turn them into oppressors of the poor? I don't think so.

It is obvious that Messi and the Rolling Stones are not part of the elite although they are rich.

Elites are the unknown persons who pull the strings in the dark with the aim of protecting the advantages of their privilege.

Quoting javi2541997

Elites are the unknown persons who pull the strings in the dark with the aim of protecting the advantages of their privilege.

What evidence do we have that there are people doing that (pulling the strings in the dark)? Isn't that just a conspiracy theory?

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

What evidence do we have that there are people doing that (pulling the strings in the dark)? Isn't that just a conspiracy theory?

The people who pull the strings in the dark don't play dice. :wink:

Quoting javi2541997

The people who pull the strings in the dark don't play dice. :wink:

But who are they? Is Trump one of them? Is Dutton one of them? Is King Charles one of them? I don't think so. They're not "pulling the strings in the dark", as if they were some sort of secret, sinister minority that has diabolical plans for the human species. I just don't buy it. What evidence is there for such claims? I'm asking this as objectively as I possibly can.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich It is obvious that those people are not pulling the strings because since I said some do it in the "dark" it means that there are people who are hidden, but they hold an important size of power. That's the point. It is more relevant to them to use puppets to rule on. I never claimed they are evil. I just pointed out his relevance.
Do I have evidence? No. Does evidence prove everything? No. Since the premise is that some folks rule the politics hidden by the leaves it would be contradictory to say I can mask them off. It is OK if you think I am in denial. But they are there, whether you accept their existence or not.

Quoting javi2541997

Does evidence prove everything? No.

Wait a minute, in the context of science as well as the world of lawyers, evidence does indeed constitute proof if certain conditions are met. Or do you disagree with that?

Quoting javi2541997

It is OK if you think I am in denial.

I don't think you are in denial. There is indeed a difference between the world of ordinary people like you and me, and the world of organized crime. I don't like mafias, for example. But I don't think that there's an "elite mafia" running the world. We (as in, the people who are not part of the criminal world) would have destroyed them by now. Or do you disagree with that?

Quoting javi2541997

But they are there, whether you accept their existence or not.

Ok. Is there at least one example? One person that belongs to that group?

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Wait a minute, in the context of science as well as the world of lawyers, evidence does indeed constitute proof if certain conditions are met. Or do you disagree with that?

Absolutely. I work at the Land Registry, and I provide a lot of evidence and facts in countless land trials every month. But I thought we were in a different context: an interesting discussion between two online friends and not in a court discussing in front of a judge. :smile:

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

But I don't think that there's an "elite mafia" running the world. We (as in, the people who are not part of the criminal world) would have destroyed them by now. Or do you disagree with that?

Hmm... Good point. It is not worthy to be sceptical and suspicious. But I wasn't referring to a mafia elite either. I don't claim they use bad practices to influence politics, but I do think they have power in some manner. I guess, in modern times, a phone call by a person that I believe is important is more relevant than a shot. Now that we are in a thread called 'Australian politics,' it comes to my mind who was the person who proposed to bring Eucalyptus from Australia because it is evident that Franco was limited intellectually. Well, that's the kind of powerful hidden folks that I am thinking of.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Ok. Is there at least one example? One person that belongs to that group?

A few months ago there was an interesting conflict in the port of Murcia. A ship from a country (Germany, if I am not mistaken), supposedly holding weapons and missiles for Israel, was about to dock in the named port. Yet the notice was quickly spread around like dust, and it ended up in court.

Who was the one who knew about the boat?
How did he know the boat had weapons?
Who pulled the strings in that case? :smile:

Quoting javi2541997

Who was the one who knew about the boat?
How did he know the boat had weapons?
Who pulled the strings in that case? :smile:

I don't know. Does anyone know that? Things of that sort can be investigated, officially. At some point you kinda get to the bottom of it. It's just some random criminals, who happen to be semi-organized. They're not what I would call "the elite".

Quoting kazan

Instead we get governance based on 3 year long reelection political decision making with very limited trust in oppositions.

So I find myself trusting in the six-year term of what Keating called "that unrepresentative swill". But the Senate gives equal weighting to the states, and so not to intelligence or problem-solving potential.

Again, the Senate may well be more significant than the Reps after the forthcoming election. Especially if we have a minority government. The bastards will have to negotiate.

@kazan this is an example of what I think about when I think about Oceanic Continentalism:



EDIT: And, of course, the obligatory AC/DC song, since this is a Thread about Australian politics:

Quoting Banno

The bastards will have to negotiate.

Well, but I think that's a good thing after all. Politics should be the practice of negotiating with the aim of getting agreements done. It will be interesting to see that proportional difference between the Senate and Congress; most of the EU zone countries work in such a way. All of them have coalition governments. It is not appropriate to have a supermajority because it doesn't really represent people.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

this is an example of what I think about when I think about Oceanic Continentalism:

Do you root for some kind of indigenismo politics?

Quoting javi2541997

Do you root for some kind of indigenismo politics?

Depends on what you mean by indigenismo. I would say that everyone is indigenous to the place that they were born. You are indigenous to Spain, I'm indigenous to Argentina. And, at the end of the day, we're both indigenous to the planet Earth. Draw whatever lines you wish to draw on map. We were both born in the same general territory, because that territory is the Earth as a planet in this case.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Good points.

I think the indigenous people of Spain were the Iberians, and now my DNA is a mix of Romans, Visigoths, Moors, and other random people in the old settlements in North Africa. I am cool with that.

Yes, we belong to the same place: the earth. But I think it is relevant to the soil where you were born. At least I believe I would be completely different if I were born in the middle of Australia instead of Southwestern Europe, although both places are in the same spot* of the vast universe.

* Approximate dimensions.

Quoting javi2541997

I think the indigenous people of Spain were the Iberians, and now my DNA is a mix of Romans, Visigoths, Moors, and other random people in the old settlements in North Africa. I am cool with that.

I probably have Moorish ancestry like way, way back, like one of my great-great-great-grandfathers or whatever. I'd say that it's impossible to have Spanish heritage and not have some Moorish heritage as well, at some point in the genealogical tree. I mean, Andalucía is essentially Moorish Spain, and it's right next to Castilla La Mancha. So, I'd say that all of us, the people that have Spanish heritage, probably have some degree of Moorish heritage as well.

I have Visigoth heritage for sure, and a bit of Basque. Probably some Roman in there as well.

Here's case in point of the inability of the Liberal Party to put together a coherent opinion, let alone a policy. They released a pamphlet over the weekend.

Crikey's back, so there's some interesting Journalism around. See Bernard Keane's response.

Reply to Banno In the seventh priority, Liberal Party claims:

Labor’s approach to national security is weak, as shown by cuts to important defence spending (now under 2 per cent of GDP) and the significant shift in Australia’s foreign policy position towards our ally Israel.

We also waste 2 percent of GDP in defence spending, and I already consider it pretty high. I think it is a waste of money and resources if the digit is above two, but Trump will probably threaten all NATO countries to increase it.

Also, they say in the pamphlet: our ally Israel... mate. :death:

More on Liberal policy: Dutton’s 2025 launch still leaves voters needing answers on key policies

Michelle Grattan is a seasoned, well-respected journalist and commentator:

Dutton keeps promising more answers later, but at some point this will start to look like a ploy for concealing the vacuums that need filling with finer print.

Reply to Banno Agree. Dutton's only real policy, apart from appealing to fear, uncertainty and doubt, is the nuclear one we started with. I'm hopeful he doesn't win. But I'm also pretty unimpressed with Antony Albanese. He spends too much time trying to be Mr Nice Guy, every voter's friend. He appeared on Spicks and Specks for goodness sake. I can just hear him intoning on talkback radio, 'A huge thankyou to the South Doobyville Fire Brigade for rescuing Mrs Jones' cat from the tree in her backyard. And shame on all the naysayers who are laughing over the fact they ran the cat over when leaving the property. That's Un-Australian!'

Still reckon we're heading for a coalition government with Labour and others.

Quoting Wayfarer

But I'm also pretty unimpressed with Antony Albanese. He spends too much time trying to be Mr Nice Guy, every voter's friend.

And what's wrong with that? Is that 'Orid Stuff, to use a phrase that I read just here, about some beer?

Reply to Arcane Sandwich :lol: Fair dinkum…..

Quoting Wayfarer

Still reckon we're heading for a coalition government with Labour and others.

Did you mean minority government?

Might be the best outcome.

Reply to Banno Yes. Gillard's was exemplary, all things considered.

Reply to Wayfarer

Quoting Ben Smee

The government will attempt to speak about the cost of living. The opposition will be out to convince us that we live in the sorts of “tough and precarious” times that might require desperate measures.

Perhaps the pivot point in the election will be how scared folk are.

Reply to Banno Blistering critique of Albo in today’s SMH which I’m afraid is pretty on-target.

@Banno,
The 44 page Dutton pamphlet, mentioned 5 days ago (sorry for the tardy backtrack, Life intrudes...again), is long on what needs doing and the "Who bears the blame" ( in the opinion of the Coalition) and, as usual, short on how the Coalition will achieve such....in most instances. A substantive waste of 40 minutes reading and considering unless it's read as a Peter Dutton Revealed/Humanized promo. "Humanized" is probably a reach, more an objective little honored in its achievement.
Interesting point made in Crikey by B Keane.
The question is if the Aust. electorate decides "We won't be fooled again..." Who knows!

Faint smile

Reply to kazan It's kind of down to the least worst option. As it so often is.

@javi2541997,
"That wave (a modern socialist perspective)...spread all over the world with the ... exception of the USA..." Well said, :wink:
(because they don't know what social democracy is)... due to careful editing of the USA education system, myth/ethos etc., they can't abide the thought that hard work will not necessarily improve your life's circumstances and that helping your less fortunate fellow is not a weakness at a nationwide level.

Each to their own!

Tired smile

@Wayfarer,

Yeah, like opting for the cream on stale skimmed milk, precious little and nothing of notable worth. As usual!
We tend to have a talent for getting what we vote for and putting up with it until next time.

@Banno,
"Perhaps the pivotal point.....how scared folks are"

and scared the most of on the day they vote.

What a way to garner votes!

Oh, the heights to which noble Politics aspires.... in its dreams.

still tired smile

Anyone want to tie the possible/likely longevity of the current Is-Pal peace deal to a possible/likely outcome of the Fed Election? Given the heightened political and social tension being created with the two currently most popular phobias in "mainstream" media?

engaging smile

Reply to kazan Does the pro-Israel vote outweigh the pro-palestine vote? More Australians are in favour than in opposition of recognising Palestine as an independent state, apparently.

B ut both are overwhelmed by those who are "not sure" - or perhaps couldn't give a fuck.

I don't think it will be a big issue, do you?

Here's an uncomfortable read... this article about Paxton's book on the Vichy regime. I noted this:

In demonstrating that France’s leaders actively sought collaboration with the Nazis and that much of the public initially supported them, he showed that the country’s wartime experience was not simply imposed but arose from its own internal political and cultural crises: a dysfunctional government and perceived social decadence.

Australia has a long history of collaboration with the US, which, given the recent coronation is moving along an all to familiar path. Sky news and friends manufacture an Australian "internal political and cultural crises", for Dutton to take advantage of. How far that might go depends on any real crisis that arrises at some time during the perhaps probable forthcoming Dutton government, a government which would finish its first term before the US changes it's monarch.

Reply to Banno Yep. Well put. I'm not sure exactly what direction it will go but we'll know soon enough.

Some more about the growth of independents, from ABC News today:

Inside the community independents movement targeting key marginal seats at the next federal election

Local, female and liberal, with a strong interest in climate, 'with a message to "stop Trump-style politics in Australia"'.

Not all bad. Yet.

And a suggestion for another issue that might be an election priority... not.

Prisons don’t create safer communities, so why is Australia spending billions on building them?

Just anther example of our main political parties adopting evidence-based policy...

Education and medicine have long moved to explicitly evidence-based policy. Why not politics? Who knows what might happen. Independents might be the answer.

@Banno and @Tom Storm,

We seem to have an unanimous general agreement of three answers to nil as regards election influences on nation wide surveyed results. But, at an electorate by electorate level, particular issues can have disproportionate influence with the run on effect in a tight national election..at least at the lower house level.
Nice item ( evidence based...) for the ironic wish list, Banno. Not disagreeing though, just living in a too early millenium to hope!

An aside of a non political nature...."an unanimous" or "a unanimous" ? "An" looks correct in print but clashes on the ear when verbalized, personally. Anyone else have this disconnect? Might be merely a local dialect/education blip? Or a personal propensity for an extended pause between those two words when verbalized in a sentence? Probably much of a to do about nothing!

Self deprecating smile

@Banno

"Australia has a long history.......before the USA changes its monarch"

Perhaps a Dutton govt next might be good on the face of what you're saying if the electorate was more politically savvy as an outcome. But it's a hell of a risk and the long term benefits look minimal, from the current and historical likelihood perspectives....short memories encourage the same mistakes to be made repeatedly. Wk? Hope vs Skepticism.

trying to find a balanced smile

Sometimes, the feeling is of an exhausted swimmer clinging to a floaty called "Hope they see it" in the stormy sea called "Despondency", at this time in the electoral cycle.

tired smile

Sorry, still trying to eliminate duplication.

frustrated smile

Quoting kazan

Sorry, still trying to eliminate duplication.

Too many windows? Good thing is you now can go back and edit those duplicates to add more stuff as you think of it.

Try to make a habit of looking on the bright side.

Only gives "half" the picture, plus the glare is too often playing the same role as the fog on the dark side. Something comfortable about short bouts of the dark side....know thy enemy as thy enemy knows you...
But, thanks for the well meaning pep. Looking out for those around you has to be part of the everyman's best take on living a good life.
Just an opinion.
cheery smile

Reply to kazan Just think of all those taxpayer funded business lunches you will be able to enjoy...

Reply to kazan You may be right. I’m not huge on politics, all I really know is never vote Liberal.

@Banno,
Interesting assumption that any taxes would be paid in the first place by those who do business lunches/junkets/upskilling, team building weekends, going on the reported company tax receipts, or lack thereof, of our "important" industries' giants. That is, the wage earning tax payers pay, through their income taxes, for the privilege of being employed by resource stripping multi nationals gutting the nation etc. Not just picking on the miners either. Motorways etc fall within that variety. Build infrastructure ( for the nation, of course) then toll the public for as long as the infrastructure is usable. Extolled as nation building! Good enough for a couple of reelections and then onto the next big deal. Same actors ( or family of),same modus, same results,same BS. Inventive minds used for spin instead of real repeatable national "wealth" creation. Yeah, get your ( being nice) "irony".

@Tom Storm,
Bit the same, unless you're born with the silver spoon ect.
Rule of voting... believe nothing of what you hear,and only half of what you see and have examined thoroughly. And then, follow the money trail anyway. And don't vote early, that's for the don't cares and the rusted ons, or, in these hard times, the overseas holiday makers.

Whew! Feel better after that. Time to examine the rations for tea, tonight...in these hard times!

relaxed smile

Hard to determine where cynicism (should ) ends and mere skepticism takes over....in the philosophy of politics.

concerned and still smiling

Laura Tingle has a piece on the ABC today about long-term results of the recent coronation.

If the US produces more gas, then there will be more competition for Australian NG. As the US pulls out of cooperative agreements - WHO, Paris, banking, tax and so on, it leaves space for China to fill.

The Albanese response has been to show a steady hand - "Keeping us out of recession. 1.1 million jobs. Getting inflation from a six to a two. Making sure that people's living standards are looked after — from a six to a two. Completing the NBN. Finishing Gonski … Turning the decline in Medicare around and, importantly, moving towards — just as Labor governments have created Medicare, [and] universal provision of superannuation — we're taking the steps, and I announced in December, for universal provision of childcare".

A taste of what we might expect in the run up to the election. All more or less true. How will it fly in the face of an opposition interested only in Australia Day, Auschwitz commemoration and business lunches?

@Banno,
"How will it fly....lunches?"
As usual, it will fly as well as the spin is received and impression making events unfold. Along with ads and the usual detritus used as fishing burly and paid for from the various interested parties' war chests.

From the wage earners' perspective, each election promise's effect upon mortgages and rents will be carefully assessed.

So,climate and energy mitigation, health, education, wages and employment etc. promises will all be most effective if they are couched in immediate cost of living reduction terms.

Credit card health will determine the election outcome. There are not enough wealthy social philanthropists/idealists to sway elections towards long term nation growing and protecting directions.

Oh, "democratic'' elections, when all the isms come out to play, but individualism determines the day!

Just another opinion.

Dumb punter smile

Reply to kazan

Forum Tips and Tricks - How to Quote

:up:

Thanks Banno,
Will practice and read and reread and reread ad nauseam, wading through the assumptions of common knowledge until it works. And then practice, practice etc.

exhausted smile

Crikey pointes out that Dutton now has two ministers responsible for reducing government waste...

Think about that. Perhaps twice as many bureaucrats reducing bureaucracy will reduce the bureaucracy twice as fast...?


Added: And whele you are there, check out Dutton has the worldview of a Queensland cop, someone once wrote. We should take that seriously

Reply to Banno I can't see it, and I don't get why politicians are obsessed with Musk-wannabe reduction of bureaucracy. Every developed nation needs bureaucracy because it is the duct where the citizens can interact with the administration. This was one of the main pillars of the establishment of each modern society. If I need to pay taxes, where do I go? If I want to build a house in the middle of nowhere, where do I apply to get my license? Etc.

I believe that it would be a complete mistake to absorb Musk's principle of reducing bureaucracy to near zero. I guess he doesn't need it because he is the richest man in the world, but when the rest of us demand to get drinking water out of a creek, where can I demand it? On "X" insulting woke posters?

If Americans voted to get rid of a government, it would be fine, but I only hope that this wave doesn't spread to the rest of modern nations like ours. That's the paradox. Some nations wish to have a bureaucracy (Pakistan or Iraq), and others want to get rid of it. Weird.

Quoting Banno

Crikey pointes out that Dutton now has two ministers responsible for reducing government waste...

that'd be right. Some other imaginary bogeyman for him to winge about. Everyone knows that whenever the Tories cut the public service, they then open the purse to thousands of overpaid consultants from the big end of town, who report to their shareholders, not to the electorate.

The usual reactionary move against change by conservatism...rinse and repeat.
Keep doing something the same way repeatedly and expect a different outcome. What's that the definition of, again?... or... Again, of what is that the definition?

disappointed smile

Quoting javi2541997

I can't see it, and I don't get why politicians are obsessed with Musk-wannabe reduction of bureaucracy

Well, this has been a consistent thread in English speaking governments for the past 40 years and a key plank in neoliberal driven politics. Its origins are Reaganism and Thatcherism. Cut backs often play to the populist notion that government workers are lazy and do nothing and are paid for by money "stolen" from voters through taxation.

Reply to Tom Storm What happened in Canberra was the public servants who were dropped took on contract work to do the same job for more pay.

In the interests of efficiency, of course.

The result was that the folk doing the work have less incentive to gainsay their bosses. They will not get the next contract.

But the public service has changed, the occupants of the higher offices are on shaky ground and will acquiesce to poor policy.

Hence robodebt and so on.

Again, in the interests of efficiency, of course.

@Tom Storm,

Pre-Raeganism, where would this pop notion of lazy pub servants come from and be so persistent in the minds of voters? Or is it ignorance and laziness of not looking into govt operations/productivity to see how the budget estimates stack up against expected/predicted outcomes?

In your experience and resultant opinion?

genuinely curious smile

@Banno,

Interesting curve put on the meaning/use of "efficiency" for political gain.
Used on both sides of the aisle with small adjustments to the specific departments/projects and desired outcomes.
Efficiency in cost presiding over efficiency of outcome being bullshittedly argued as the requirement instead of each being dependent up/assessed by the other. Appearance vs reality.

So, more of the same pap, wouldn't you agree?

interested smile

Reply to kazan Pretty much.

@Banno,

A stacked system, this governing business!

leary smile

Compliant bureaucrats brings to mind the state of whistleblowers' protection, their motivations and the damage or otherwise to their careers. And the general state of objective truth in governance and hence back to philosophy.

lively smile

Quoting kazan

responses, where would this pop notion of lazy pub servants come from and be so persistent in the minds of voters?

No idea. But it's when an idea like this is weaponised into policy that it matters. I suspect the myth of the lazy government employee is an old one and probably motivated by an innate suspicion of anyone whose salary comes from tax payer's money.

Quoting kazan

In your experience and resultant opinion?

I have met many bureaucrats and politicians many are hard working and sincere, even those I dislike. Although these days the wise, mature veteran bureaucrats, who help to build departments and nurture public policy responses, are less frequently encountered as they have many been restructured out of circulation.

Reply to Tom Storm Yes, it is an old prejudice that public servants are lazy. I also met hard workers in the public administration. I don't know how it works in Australia, but here you need to pass different exams to get the vacancy. I know we (I work in public administration) are not perfect, but I have never understood why some folks think it would be better if I (like other mates) were replaced by AI or we reduced processes to non-existent public intervention.
After Valencia's floods, the funds for reconstruction come from basically the state because insurance companies are putting a lot of obstacles. Now, who is the inefficient one here?

I remember watching a TV program from Australia. It was about lorry drivers going to and fro. It comes to my mind the vast desert, reefs, and highways of Australia where those workers were driving by. I hope those public interest services and goods are managed by the AU government with competent public servants.

We also do a similar management here. Our Constitution even states that the surface, coast, beaches, and economic platform belong to the state. In my humble opinion, a state loses sovereignty if their politicians decide to lead the administration of key goods and services to companies. I can't even imagine what would happen if those firms have foreign shareholders. Like our forests and shores have a price? No way. That would mean our countries would have a price too.

Honestly, I thought Australian politics had a different distinct perspective on China, but...

Australia bans DeepSeek from government devices citing national security.

Why doesn't any government trust Chinese AI? :chin:

The Age, Melbourne's and Nine Entertainment's main paper, has as it's headline

Trump just dressed up ethnic cleansing as a real estate opportunity, and blew up ‘America First’

Continuing with
Quoting The Age

The leader of the free world advocates ethnic cleansing and dresses it up as a golden real estate opportunity. Here’s the dire, if hardly surprising, place we find ourselves just three weeks into the second Trump administration.

It doesn't look like Trump's gambit will carry much support here. What might be interesting is how Dutton, who has been pushing for more support for Israel, will step on this. maybe the Trump election will not play into Dutton's plans.

@javi2541997,

Not "trust Chinese AI"......heaps of reasons/rationales ranging from the competitive to the suspicious. It is difficult to trust in opacity in the current spin of global international politics. Probably no more than in the past! Just currently more "gaslighting"... if that the right term?

@Banno,

"how Dutton...will step on (or in) this." Probably in his usual way, change the narrative and trundle out some other "wrongdoing" of Labor and Albo to " feed (to) the chooks."

Is anyone else sick of all the isms being flogged currently in Aust politics? Or has the past, more than 50 years' attempts to rid the taint of working class bigotry from our society/nation, been in vain? Or is this interpretation a misstep to idealism by an cynic with a skeptic's thought toolbox?

Lightly jaded smile

Reply to Banno Stop stealing my Reply to references, please.

Nuh.

Been watching Juice Media for years.

Reply to Banno Here's the thing, Australia doesn't exist according to this fine gentleman:



You're living in a fairy tale.

Damn, they're on to us....

Reply to Banno

It is truly a horrible painting. I don't much like Gina Reinhardt, she's Australia's richest women, heir of a massive iron ore fortune, and a Trump toady, trying to create an Australian MAGA party. But as much as I dislike her, I agree that painting is truly awful.

As for the artist - Vincent Namatjira is is great-grandson of another famous indigenous artist, Albert Namatjira (1902-1959). Albert Namatjira was well-known for painting Australian landscapes in a classical European watercolour style, which I would guess is a bit politically uncomfortable for many people today, because anything classical and European is, of course, associated with colonialism and the oppression of First Nation's peoples.

An example of Albert Namatjira's art:



So, reading around, I notice in the Wikipedia entry, that:

Initially thought of as having succumbed to European pictorial idioms – and for that reason, to ideas of European privilege over the land – Namatjira's landscapes have since been re-evaluated as coded expressions on traditional sites and sacred knowledge..

...presumably meaning that his works have been declared to adhere to politically-correct aesthetic standards by the appropriate cultural guardians.

Vincent Namatjira's work, on the other hand, is nowadays popular, but, to me at least, seems to lack the graceful aesthetics, not to mention artistic technique, of his grandfather's.


Source

But each to his or her own, I suppose.

Quoting Wayfarer

It is truly a horrible painting.

But that was the creative intent of Vincent Namatjira. He made her ugly on purpose. Why? Because she's ethically ugly, she has no moral values.

EDIT: Or think of it like this, Wayfarer: why would he paint her beautifully? As an Aboriginal Australian, he perceives her as an oppressor. Why would he glorify her?

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Yep.

Reply to Banno Do you have a horse in this race, mate? According to some Oossians, you need to have an intellectual horse in a philosophical discussion, in order to be able to have that discussion in a respectful way. It's a fallacy, of course, I'd call it "appeal to nonsense", but it already has a technical term in the literature.

EDIT: I could call it "Appeal to the Boy Scouts" and publish a paper on it. Hmmm...

Reply to Arcane Sandwich It was only by reason of the media flap about that particular painting that I learned anything about the artist. I didn't mean that he should try and beautify or embellish a portrait of Reinhardt, heavens no.

Reply to Wayfarer I do see your point, though. You're arguing that he doesn't seem to know the craft of painting as well as his grandfather did, as in, he doesn't seem to have the same level of technical knowledge. I think that's a fair critique in general, as far as Philosophy of Art goes.

(edited for erratas)

Reply to Arcane Sandwich :up:

When I was a kid, I knew about Albert Namatjira - I think one of my schoolteachers showed us his paintings, and I thought they were beautiful works. Still do, even if they’re kind of old-school.

@Wayfarer &@Arcane Sandwich,

In the late 1960's Australia, A.N.'s watercolours were highly sought after and regarded as breaking away from the Euro. watercolour styles. ( Note: "breaking away from", not "different to"). They were regarded as sophisticated in comparison to the now highly commercialized but then considered "primitive", "traditional/dot" finger paintings.
How the appreciation of art oscillates powered by sale prices, that is if art gurus/critics/schillers/sprookers even consider the arts in more than a superficial philosophical and psychological manner when commenting on particular art in their 30 second bite on media shows?
The current "Who has copyright?" question regarding Aboriginal art works and the whole question of who can use that "style" is currently going through its legal and legislative process.
But haven't heard of a question being raised about any other "style" only belonging to a specific or specified group of people in Aust.

curious smile

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Or maybe the younger Namatjira simply prefers a less polished, grittier style.

The major parties look like bleeders after the Vic by-elections. Further drift to cross benches in the primary votes. Minority govt federally looking more likely if dissatisfaction in Vic is a nationwide phenomenon?

Wonder how the great Mandates argument with be spun by the main party with less than 30% of the primary vote in a minority govt.? That will be the eleventh great wonder of the world!

And how many minority govt. election cycles, will the country tolerate before a big swing back to a major party, will the coalition handle before the Nats. go it alone?

Just a thought.

usual smile

Did anyone catch the Quarterly Essay Minority Report?

An extract at https://www.quarterlyessay.com.au/essay/2024/11/minority-report/extract

A podcast interview at https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/bigideas/quarterly-essay-george-megalogenis-australian-federal-politics/104880452

The thesis is that the electoral backlash in Australia is unique in that it rejects both major parties at once. That the Liberals have moved too far to the crazy right, while the Labor party is too afeared to do anything. Well argued and data-based.

It will be an interesting election.

@Banno,

Heard the ABC RN Radio interview, a coupla days ago. Meant to mention it.
Probably had an influence on above comment.
With politics,it's often hard to sieve out the influences

cheery smile

Reply to kazan I'm one of those of whom it is said 'He doesn't know much about Modern Art, but he knows what he likes'. I like Albert, not so much Vincent. Seems to me Vincent can’t paint any better than I can, but if that was all I could do, then I wouldn’t do it. Which is why I don’t paint.

Reply to Wayfarer Well, but arguably everyone can paint like Piet Mondrian. Arguably, anyone can start a punk rock band, you don't even need to know how to play an instrument. That's another legitimate discussion in Philosophy of Art. It doesn't seem to me to be the case that Vincent needs to have good technique or knowledge of the craft of painting in order to make a powerful statement about Gina, and about other people.

Reply to Wayfarer In fact, I'd argue that one possible slogan is this one:

"Australia: a beautiful land (as seen in Albert's paintings) with ugly people (as seen in Vincent's painting of Gina).

I'll just leave this here:

Indigenous Sovereignty and the Being of the Occupier: Manifesto for a White Australian Philosophy of Origins

Quoting Toula Nicolacopoulos and George Vassilacopoulos

CONTENTS

1. Introduction: The Call for a Manifesto

2. The Need for a White Australian Philosophical Historiography

3. The ‘Hypothetical Nation’ as Being Without Sovereignty

4. A Genealogy of the West as the Ontological Project of the Gathering-We

5. Ontological Sovereignty and the Hope of a White Australian Philosophy of Origins

6. The World-Making Significance of Property Ownership in Western Modernity

7. Sovereign Being and the Enactment of Property Ownership

8. The Onto-Pathology of White Australian Subjectivity

9. Racist Epistemologies of a Collective Criminal Will

10. The Perpetual-Foreigner-Within as an Epistemological Construction

11. The Migrant as White-Non-White and White-But-Not-White-Enough

12. Three Images of the Foreigner-Within: Subversive, Compliant, Submissive

13. The Imperative of the Indigenous - White Australian Encounter

References

Quoting Aileen Moreton-Robinson

Indigenous people cannot forget the nature of migrancy and position all non-Indigenous people as migrants and diasporic. Our ontological relationship to land, the ways that country is constitutive of us, and therefore the inalienable nature of our relationship to land, marks a radical, indeed incommensurable, difference between us and the non-Indigenous. This ontological relation to land constitutes a subject position that we do not share, and which cannot be shared, with the postcolonial subject whose sense of belonging in this place is tied to migrancy.

----------------------------------------------------------
Source:

Aileen Moreton-Robinson, ‘I Still Call Australia Home: Indigenous Belonging and Place in a White Postcolonising Society’, in Sara Ahmed, Claudia Cataneda, Ann Marie Fortier and Mimi Shellyey (eds.), Uprootings/Regroupings: Questions of Postcoloniality, Home and Place, London and New York, Berg, 2003, pp. 23-40.

Toula Nicolacopoulos George Vassilacopoulos:A spectre is haunting white Australia, the spectre of Indigenous sovereignty. All the powers of old Australia have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: politicians and judges, academics and media proprietors, businesspeople and church leaders.

Toula Nicolacopoulos George Vassilacopoulos:True heirs to this tradition of power and self-denial, white Australians are today still refusing to become free. In our two centuries-long refusal to hear the words—‘I come from here. Where do you come from?’—that the sovereign being of the Indigenous peoples poses to us, we have taken the Western occupier’s mentality to a new, possibly ultimate, level. Unable to retreat from the land we have occupied since 1788, and lacking the courage unconditionally to surrender power to the Indigenous peoples, white Australia has become ontologically disturbed. Suffering what we describe as ‘onto-pathology’, white Australia has become dependent upon ‘the perpetual-foreigners-within’, those migrants in relation to whom the so-called ‘old Australians’ assert their imagined difference. For the dominant white Australian, freedom and a sense of belonging do not derive from rightful dwelling in this land but from the affirmation of the power to receive and to manage the perpetual-foreigners-within, that is, the Asians, the Southern European migrants, the Middle Eastern refugees, or the Muslims. In an act of Nietzchean resentment, white Australia has cultivated a slave morality grounded in a negative self-affirmation. Instead of the claim, ‘I come from here. You are not like me, therefore you do not belong’, the dominant white Australian asserts: ‘you do not come from here. I am not like you, therefore I do belong’. Might the depth of this self-denial manifest dramatically, not in any failure to embrace a more positive moral discourse but, in the fact that white Australia has yet to produce a philosophy and a history to address precisely that which is fundamental to its existence, namely our being as occupier?

Dead can Dance - Yulunga

Quoting Wikipedia

Dead Can Dance are an Australian world music and darkwave band from Melbourne. Currently composed of Lisa Gerrard and Brendan Perry, the group formed in 1981. They relocated to London the following year. Australian music historian Ian McFarlane described Dead Can Dance's style as "constructed soundscapes of mesmerising grandeur and solemn beauty; African polyrhythms, Gaelic folk, Gregorian chant, Middle Eastern music, mantras, and art rock.

Quoting Wikipedia

The Rainbow Serpent is known by different names by the many different Aboriginal cultures.

Yurlunggur is the name of the "rainbow serpent" according to the Murngin (Yolngu) in north-eastern Arnhemland, also styled Yurlungur, Yulunggur Jurlungur, Julunggur or Julunggul. The Yurlunggur was considered "the great father".

40 degrees Celsius (104 Farenheit) right now in the small coastal town where I live in Argentina

And these stupid Eucalyptus trees that some genius brought from Australia are soaking up all of the moisture from the soil. God damn it.

@Wayfarer,
Interested in art (graphic) history. No interest or capability in its creation. Dislike even house painting. A recognized incapacity which needs no excuse.
Like you, enjoy Albert's art, no interest in that item of Vincent's art. But, many BIG art prize entries don't interest either. Personal taste needs no justification unless it comes with social status/responsibility.

Just an opinion/thought.

@Arcane Sandwich,
Was there marsh/swamp/wet lands, that it was "decided" had to be removed, where the Eucalypts were planted in your town?
They were often touted as a "warm" climate swamp drainage/reclamation "devise"...e.g. under Fascist rule, the malaria infested swamps between Roma and Ostia were planted with Eucalypts which led to the first relief from that summer plague since Roma's foundation. As you may be aware.
In the dry parts of much of Australia, a line of healthy gum trees (Eucalypts) in an otherwise low scrub or scarcely grassed dry region, indicates at least seasonally abundant water...usually!

At approx. 3.30 pm, cooler day here. Only 38C. Relative humidity < 20%.. (recording devise bottoms out at 20%.) Overnight minimum was 18C. Quite bearable for this time of year.

cheerful smile

Quoting kazan

Was there marsh/swamp/wet lands, that it was "decided" had to be removed, where the Eucalypts were planted in your town?

Nah mate. Just some families that were into the lumberjack business. Their idea was: plant a ton of Eucalyptus, chop em, sell them, repeat. This isn't Australia, these trees are not a native species to Argentina, and they feel no pain. That's the justification here. They are not sacred to the indigenous populations of Argentina. Well, maybe they're sacred in some way to Australian Agentines. Bunch of unpatriotic crooks if you ask me.

@Arcane Sandwich,
Sounds like the world over, short term gain ignores long term pain. We're all guilty of it... in someway or other, our descendants will claim and complain.

wry smile

Reply to kazan Well I mean, there's Australian Paraguayans. We've been over this, in this Thread. And some (not all) of my Goddam neighbors want to call themselves "Australian Argentines". Like, really? What do I care that your granddaddy or whoever came here from Australia? This isn't Australia, you say so yourself whenever someone criticizes those stupid Eucalyptus trees that your stupid family brought here in the first place. They're drying up the neighborhood, you unpatriotic crook. If you really cared about those Eucalyptus for anything other than lumber-milling, you'd at least know their biological role in the Australian ecosystems.

Phew, sorry, had to vent in order to explain why I'm furious about these trees even being here.

@Arcane Sandwich,
You're lucky Gonwanaland, or whatever it's called, broke up, or you may have been lumbered with gum trees as native species. Or not?

chuckle and smile

Reply to kazan Pangea forms and disperses every now and then. It's done it several times in the past. The craziest thing though is that New Zeland has its own (sunken) continent, called Zealandia if I recall correctly.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Well, maybe they're sacred in some way to Australian Agentines

Yes, but Argentina also has a large beef cattle industry. We have that in common also.

When we visited California, we noticed large swathes of eucalypt, in some parts north of San Francisco, you could swear you were driving on an Australian freeway, were the traffic not going in the opposite direction.

Quoting kazan

Like you, enjoy Albert's art, no interest in that item of Vincent's art. But, many BIG art prize entries don't interest either. Personal taste needs no justification unless it comes with social status/responsibility.

Agree. Overall I'm more at home with realist art and impressionism than with modernist and abstract. But visual arts are not a big part of my life.

@Arcane Sandwich,
Geologically, continents are temporary platforms partly above sea level. Biologically, continents are big petri dishes for life to escape water logging... in places, of course.

Having their own whole continent each may be why attempts to unite NZ and AU into one country have so far failed. The rest of the world and D. Trump couldn't stand one country owning two whole continents at once.

Just a thought.

Smile sideways

Quoting Wayfarer

Argentina also has a large beef cattle industry.

I'm against the oppression of cattle, even as an Argentine. At some point, we all stop being adolescents and we become men and women instead. It is not ethical to oppress non-human beings that are capable of suffering.

Reply to kazan Australia is not a continent, the continent is Oceania.

@Wayfarer,
Do you imagine/think that the USA would convert to metric if we and the few other contrary countries converted to driving on the wrong side of the road like Norway, or whoever it was, did in "recent" history? Donny T. could put a tariff on imported measurements then. It could work like a worldwide GST or VAT on everything.

@Arcane Sandwich,
Mmm! Everybody has the right to correct/rewrite history in their own "image". So no argument and no agreement on the continental debate.

paternal but not superior smile

Reply to kazan Here's the top 3 Australian movies of all time, as far as I'm concerned:

1) Mad Max
2) Outback Vampires
3) Crocodile Dundee

Quoting kazan

Do you imagine/think that the USA would convert to metric

The US seems awfully backwards when it comes to metrics. And also their currency system is dreadful, considering how basic the US dollar is. Trump just banned pennies, about the only practical decision he’s capable of making.

Quoting Wayfarer

The US seems awfully backwards when it comes to metrics.

But there's something else that everyone gets backwards, including myself, until very recently: how to correctly think about space in geo-political terms. Here is how I would explain it to someone of your philosophical knowledge:

Earth, as a planet, has four hemispheres: Western, Eastern, Northern, Southern. Yet there are only two poles: the North Pole, and the South Pole. There is no West Pole. And there is no East Pole.

Think about it. Important consequences can be derived from these facts, concerning the very nature of geological poles.

So what's the problem with the electoral reforms?

Independents would have a cap of $800 000 on their spending, while parties would have a cap of 90 million.

Yep, it's an attempt to fix the rejection of both major parties by rigging funding rather than by addressing the issues that have led to voters rejecting them.

Simple solution.
Have a "Keep the Bastards Honest" party with at least 2 alternating ( one comes up each senate term) senate seats for each state, that can't block legislation if/when the people "trust" a major party sufficiently to vote it numerical control of the senate, but otherwise can when the lower house goes off the rails .
Then the H of Reps would be the forum of legislative politics and grandstanding etc, etc. and the Senate would actually be the House of Review.

Just a roughed out "gem" of a thought that needs more work/thought.

The Westminster System relies on 2 strong ideologically distinct parties to work in the lower house and whoever has a conscience to sit in the Senate. So more independent Senators, perhaps.

@Banno,
Agreed.
Who cares what the peons need so long as its a major party's elite who tells them what they can have. Not some grassroots independent with working ears.

"Prime Minister, the peasants are revolting!"
"Yes, they are aren't they."

a skeptic's wink & cynic's smile

All this tariff stuff just means we export elsewhere if the US public doesn't want to pay the tariff. The exporter doesn't pay, the importer's end consumer does. If the tariff is too draconian for the importer's end customers, the exporter finds alternative markets which smart exporters are/should be doing constantly. Egg baskets are never perfectly designed.
Unless Donny says otherwise, of course.

Parthian shot smile

Reply to kazan China and India will happily take our aluminium and steel.

@Banno,
And if it's "profitable" ( keeps the industries financially viable) to supply China and India and doesn't stand on our own toes over other geopolitical issues, then tough on the US importers and their customers. They can blame their own Don's bombas'.

smile

Reply to kazan The US is about 1% of our aluminium and steel exports, around $1 billion a year.

But a decline in US manufacturing - becasue they will be paying more for raw materials - might lead to a reduction in global demand for iron ore, our main export.

About 11% of our imports are from the US. These will be more expensive, so we will buy elsewhere.

The silly buggers are making things easier for their competitors. But this aspect of the present madness in the US will not have much of an impact on us.

Quoting Banno

About 11% of our imports are from the US. These will be more expensive, so we will buy elsewhere.

Why will our imports from the US be more expensive unless we impose tariffs on them? Unless you mean more expensive to the extent that the US industries are unable to absorb their own tariffs on imported (into the US) raw materials and components?

confused smile

Quoting kazan

confused smile

That would look a bit like the following:

: S

:S

Reply to kazan The 20% tariff has to be passed on to the purchaser. So US goods go up in price relative to imports to AU from other countries. So we buy less from the US, more from China and Korea.

Reply to Banno and Argentina.

Reply to Banno
I think the goal is to shut the rest of the world out of the US market.

Quoting Banno

The 20% tariff has to be passed on to the purchaser. So US goods go up in price relative to imports to AU from other countries. So we buy less from the US, more from China and Korea.

Unless no inputs of production are imported into the US and other countries don't reciprocate with anti-US tariffs, then alternative producing countries will possibly be cheaper/more competitive, unless the US can lower their industrial costs of production, offsetting the effects of the tariffs, to a competitive level.
Or the US can diddle the foreign exchange rates short term like China does to keep their exports cheap.

smile

Quoting kazan

smile

: )

smile :) :smile: 

Y?? O??? L??? O???

Cutting external (to the US) aid funding of all the forms( e.g. health, military, development etc.) that Donny can think of, could allow for lower taxes within the US and allow US exports to compete internationally... if their companies don't just take the lower taxes as pure profit.

cynical smile

Quoting frank

I think the goal is to shut the rest of the world out of the US market.

The US domestic market and/or the US export market?

Curious smile

So far, Donny hasn't "forecast" much change to the International Money Market in which the US plays a key role. Is he wary of China's possible reaction?
How could that affect Aus. through international lending credit classifications and rates?
Does Donny have the big US lenders on his side or are they their usual feral selves?

interested smile

Quoting kazan

The US domestic market and/or the US export market?

The US domestic market.

Quoting frank

The US domestic market.

Mmm. Lopsided economic rationale, not surprising.

Smile with unsurprised raised eyebrow

Reply to kazan
Lopsided, yes. "America First"

Quoting frank

"America First"

Unfortunately, nationalism finds traction more easily when people feel ( or are encouraged to feel) insecure in all nations/communities.
Aus. is a prime example, some might argue.

cheeky smile

Reply to kazan What are your thoughts on the concept of a Collective Criminal Will?

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

What are your thoughts on the concept of a Collective Criminal Will?

Immediate thoughts as that concept has never occurred.

"Collective" suggests an "othering" component...rather than an awareness by the "members" of the collective.
"Criminal" calls into question from who else's point of view?
"Will" assumes a degree of intention or ignorance.

So, on the surface, a judgemental oxymoron if "Collective Criminal Will" were to be applied outside of a specific and legal jurisdiction, e.g. another nation's citizens as a whole or predominantly, or a legal convenience if applied within a legal jurisdiction much like the "conspiracy" laws of many nations.
Sorry, just a quick thought. Never given it much thought before because it can be argued ( particularly from a philosophical stance) what is "criminal" to some is something else such as "survival" to others, in a whole range of instances.

slightly apologetic smile

Life intrudes. Catch up when able. Sorry.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich So far as I am aware the only thing we buy from Argentina is "flathead".

Reply to kazan

Take a look at this from the Lowy Institute. It shows trade in terms of US vs China, from 2001 to the year before last.


(The bit about Chinese wisdom. The US didn't notice it was in a war until China had already won.)

Canada and Mexico are the only places left that have more trade with the US than China.

So who do they impose a tariffs on?

Quoting Banno

So far as I am aware the only thing we buy from Argentina is "flathead".

• And you find it necessary to use scare quotes for that?

?E

Reply to Banno You know what we import from Australia? Billabong merch.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

And you find it necessary to use scare quotes for that?

Yep. Your lizardfish are a different, and less tasty, species to our flathead.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

You know what we import from Australia?

Coal.

Quoting Banno

Yep. Your lizardfish are a different, and less tasty, species to our flathead.

Spoken like a True Australian.

Quoting Banno

You know what we import from Australia? — Arcane Sandwich

Coal.

For your Nuclear Power Plants of The Future?

Quoting Banno

So who do they impose a tariffs on?

Don't expect considered and informed economic policies out of the US for the next 3.7 years.

Lowy Institute's article didn't inform much new broadly but put it in a deeper economic context. Worth checking on them from time to time to validate general observable trends in numerous current affairs areas.

Who bankrolls the L Institute?....just the skeptic checking!

smile

Quoting Banno

(The bit about Chinese wisdom.

What can be said about the Chinese except they read their own (historical) writers? And apply in long term policies.

unsurprised smile

Quoting kazan

unsurprised smile

We really need more smileys here. I mean, you can type :S and it does nothing, but if you type : and the ), it turns into this :)

Snakes are a ground-slithering scum of a creature.

EDIT: On the other hand, some folks are in the habit of saying odd-sounding things such as "it's true because a bird told me about it."

Yeah mate? A snake told me a lot of things, that doesn't mean I have to believe what it told me.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

We really need more smileys here. I mean, you can type :S and it does nothing, but if you type : and the ), it turns into this :)

Mmm. Duly noted.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Snakes are ground-slithering scum of a creature.

Any intended reference to ":S" ?

just wondering smile

@Banno et al,

Any thoughts on how or whether the German elections might influence the timing of and/or the run up shenanigans to Aus'. coming Fed elections?
The timing definitely not as much as the WA elections outcome and the RBA's decision on interest rates/ cost of borrowing money?

Reply to kazan https://www.lowyinstitute.org/about/funding-support

@Banno,

Thanks.

It's a shame that political parties etc. don't adhere to the same attempt at financial source transparency. Might give politics a more attractive image.

Oh, but of course, that might mean more citizens would pay attention and get involved!

P.S, Any thoughts on German elections, or is that too much of a stretch? Some parallels like rise of right wing populism,race and migration issues, unmet economic expectations, decline of strong party politics.
Just reading your latest. Mind reading again....?

deadpan smile

New polling

Quoting ABC News

The model estimates there is a 78 per cent chance of a hung parliament, and a 19 per cent chance of the Coalition winning a majority.

I'm surprised it's that close.

Quoting ABC News

The model estimates there is a 78 per cent chance of a hung parliament, and a 19 per cent chance of the Coalition winning a majority.

Ok, bite, bite.
As in 78% is close to 100%, or that !9% is so close to 100%, in regards to what the two percentages each refer?
Too much overthinking or are you gauging reaction?

yeah, another curious smile

@Banno,

Does who did the "new polling" have an influence or was it an ABC News poll?
Which doesn't imply that the ABC is entirely free of bias, of course.
smile

It was a YouGov poll, not ABC.

https://au.yougov.com/elections/au/2025

MRP Methodology

Quoting kazan

Any intended reference to ":S" ?

just wondering smile

Doesn't matter. I found some smileys that I think you might like, here they are for the purpose copypasting them:

Useful smileys:

??

Hey @kazan, check out this cool smiley that I just created in another Thread.

Reply to :naughty:

click on The Naughty (i.e., the purple devil) Smiley above, in this very comment, and you'll see the comment light-up and glow yellow :)

I'm a Smart Devil, ain't I? :naughty:

Click on the following fire icon, it will light up your screen. Well, the comment (this comment) part of it, at least. ;)

Reply to :fire:

@Banno,

ACOSS has timed its revelations well to be "overwhelmed" by the more important news of the RBA's decision today.
Guess its Melbourne Cup rules with the run up to the elections... it's not how good your horse is, just how well you've ridden it and are placed in the last furlong.

Oh, thanks. Found it was YouGov polling reported on the ABC News channel.
Very proud of their "complex" MRP method of data collection, selection and interpretation, aren't they?.... mmm!
Statistics' most useful quality is achieving the required/predetermined outcome by a careful selection of the input data and an apparently logical but limited and carefully directed analysis of that data.... it has been said!
Of course, wouldn't suggest that is the case, in this case. That would be libel, wouldn't it?
Yeah, yeah, it's a highly reputable and generally accurate methodology, for sure.
But that was then, things have a habit of changing.

usual cynical smile

Looming ( but as yet, undeclared) election, extra 8 billion dollars for X over the next 4 years,opposition matches dollar for dollar + a little bit extra ( how much extra exactly, undeclared), the promises do flow from on high.

smiling at the predictability of it all

With the lead up to the (yet to be declared) Fed elections, are the major players/parties all playing the populist card or are they taking a gamble and hanging their petards to the right,center or left, "philosophically"?
Historically (last 50 years, at least), the Aust voter seems to generally favour the center it may be/has been suggested.
Does anyone have a view on whether the outcome of this election may be determined differently or not, and why?

Despite the "experts" leaning on the cost of living as the make or break of this election, that has been the prediction at many past elections and few policies of the major parties have a great distinction in this area, this time,..yes...no?

Just a thought teaser to stimulate!

non partisan smile

Reply to kazan Energy policy and environmentalism are issues. The liberals are running for nuclear power. Trump’s election has cast doubt over climate change amelioration. Yes, cost of living is a perennial, but I think there’s cynicism that either side can really address that. There’s also the ‘incumbency’ factor which goes against whomever is in power.

All in all, too close to call, although I did notice some street-level campaign activity in my district today.

Quoting Wayfarer

All in all, too close to call, although I did notice some street-level campaign activity in my district today.

Agree with your extra issues and analysis and the "Incumbency" factor although, historically ( with some noticeable exceptions e.g. Qld' Campbell Newman one term), there is a "fair go" factor of at least two terms to make good election promises in the minds of Aust voters...to date.

"Campaign activity"... nothing here in rural NE Vic village, yet. But that doesn't mean much... The world could be on the verge of..... and the locals only talk about the weather while waiting to collect their mail which is not delivered within the 40-50 home, 100 person village.
A worry when the town holds one of the best attended Anzac Day each year in the local council area. Granted the average ( not mean) age is around 60-65 and the local primary school has been closed for two years because there was/is less than 6 children. Rust belt!

Keeping the flame alive smile

Reply to kazan Didn’t realize you were posting from inside Australia!


Friendly compatriot smile

Mmmm! Try to be internationally even handed, but always see a bias which presume others see through.

smile

Presume, assume, deduct..... the fodder of philosophy?

smile

A facebook page that might be worth keeping an eye on.

https://www.facebook.com/IndependentNewsAU

Orange is bush teal?

Quoting Banno

Orange is bush teal?

Read that, at first glance, as "Orange is bush tea?"... Thought: Rooibos???

Been hacked and F/book site/persona stolen, so a quick precises anytime you see something relevant would be appreciated. Or another addy for Independent News AU, free of course.
Did find a youtube called "Time to shine a light..." accredited to INAU...is that the one?

impoverished smile.

Another weekend gone and no election date announced. Albo's got nerves of steel (any pun implied is accidental, if that's not too much of an oxymoron) or wants the shortest run up possible. Meanwhile, Dutton and Albo are both magicians on either side of the stage pulling rabbits out of their Akubras/safety helmets. Can't hear much applause for either from the public audience.

Good time to be a journalist, no shortage of grist (or is it "grit") for the news mill. Shame they are being laid off as jobs are lost in the print news industry. Could have a seachange and run for election!

sympathetic smile

Quoting Banno

We could explore natural disasters, like the closing of King Island Dairy.

King Island Dairy to continue after Saputo finds new owner for assets

Reply to Banno :clap:

Here, I suspect, is the defining characteristic of the upcoming election:

A survey about how we see the future should worry politicians

Life wasn't better fifty years ago - I know, I was there. That folk believe it was is more about where they think - or perhaps know - things are going. The question facing votes is if the move away from the main parties will be progressive or regressive.

One of the paradoxes of current culture, although far more obvious in the US, is that fact that on the one hand, we are so ready to expect government to address and solve problems for us, but then hating government for all the ways it fails to do so and wanting to punish them for it. Resulting in the continual swings against the incumbents (and in the American case, voting for a candidate whose entire platform is destroying government.) ‘There’s too much confusion, I can’t get no relief’.

Quoting Banno

Life wasn't better fifty years ago - I know, I was there

Mmmm, agree! And 50 yrs before that wasn't better either, according to elders of 50 yrs ago. And they ( the elders) also carped on about how they didn't know where the world was going to. And no difference in attitude since 1925 (selected as 100 yrs, not as a defining yr), just some good and bad times, some better and some worse.
Probably defined every election in the last 100yrs...fear of the future unknowns as seen through the "20/20 hindsight" of the recent past at each election time.
We keep doing this short vision voting repeatedly expecting a different result. Of what is that the definition?

sad smile

Quoting Wayfarer

hand, we are so ready to expect government to address and solve problems for us, but then hating government for all the ways it fails to do so and wanting to punish them for it.

More than a current cultural paradox. Been a way of redirecting self inadequacy and limitation since Mose's was a lad. Scapegoating.
We just hate being called out for our own small mindedness and selfish thoughts/deeds...maybe?

smile

Albanese says 'unjustified' US tariffs on Australia poor way to treat a friend

Well, mate, just wait until you ask them for a submarine...

Quoting Channel 7 loses WA election

While Rupert Murdoch struggles to give his fail-son the company that runs Australian politics, Kerry Stokes’ attempt to swoop in and take over WA has ended in a humiliating defeat with the Liberal Party losing in a landslide.
The Channel 7 boss tried a different tactic to Murdoch’s style of just backing whoever will win, by instead trying to back a dying political party and install former employee Basil Zempilas to a leadership position. A plan based on 7 media’s extensive experience in completely backing unlikeable men.
Barely incoming MP Zempilas, took a break from spending the entire election talking over his female party leader to centre himself and literally yelling over the top of a female panelist during 7’s election coverage after she suggested he had a problem with women, to claim that the reasons people dislike him were unfounded.
“Clearly the reason our party lost is because of the amount of recourses the other side had,” claimed Zempilas after years of free promotion from a media company with a stranglehold on the state.
“It was a conspiracy against me and my party by weaponising the things I have said and done in my time as Lord Mayor.”
Voters have now questioned why Seven Media chose to push such an unlikeable Sunrise host instead of the Cash Cow.

Why oh why does Clive Palmer keep appearing with his buckets of money and gormless advertising campaigns? The Australian Trumpets or whatever he's calling himself now is beyond ridiculous. A boil on the arse end of politics.

Reply to Wayfarer Trump-ets... as in diminutive trumps.

I rather like that despite the vast sums he is expending he gets next to no votes. A demonstration of Australian Realism...

Murdoch spends his money far more effectively.

Reply to Banno Murdoch is said to have lost his bid to alter his will in favour of Lachlan. It will be interesting to see what happens after his demise.

Reply to Wayfarer I find it so heartening, how Australian billionaire families are so convivial.

Supermarkets respond to steel tariffs by increasing grocery prices by 50%

Reply to Banno Yeah we definitely need a trade and goods commissar to predict demand and determine production and pricing for the working folk.

Faces in the street:
Then, like a swollen river that has broken bank and wall,
The human flood came pouring with the red flags over all,
And kindled eyes all blazing bright with revolution's heat,
And flashing swords reflecting rigid faces in the street.
Pouring on, pouring on,
To a drum's loud threatening beat,
And the war-hymns and the cheering of the people in the street.

Apparently the freeze on military support to Ukraine by the Traitor-in-chief has prevented or at least delayed the delivery of superseded M1A1 vehicles from Australia through Poland.

Uncertainty over Australian Abrams tanks donated to Ukraine

More evidence of the unreliability of our erstwhile ally.

Recent years have seen Australia become far too reliant on one supplier for military hardware, a poor strategy.

As trust in the US collapses, leaders in Australia and around the world are frantically recalibrating

The stupidity of AUKUS and the failure of successive governments to grow a strategic reserve will not serve us well. The Liberal party is bereft of any capacity to develop intelligent policy*. The ALP is too scared to do what needs doing. It'll have to be the cross benches.


* Note their failure to notice that Australia does not have much water.

Quoting Wayfarer

Why oh why does Clive Palmer keep appearing with his buckets of money and gormless advertising campaigns? The Australian Trumpets or whatever he's calling himself now is beyond ridiculous. A boil on the arse end of politics.

At least it keeps some fresh blood running into the big media's collapsing advertising veins. A fact not mentioned by big media as it bewails its losses of ad dollars to those dreadful social media mob.
Shame there aren't more Clives running political campaigns with the same finesse.
Can't think of anything better to say about Clive.
quizzical smile

@Banno,

"The Chaser", definitely required reading in schools, particularly in the creative arts and English classes.

Big smile

Quoting kazan

Shame there aren't more Clives running political campaigns with the same finesse.

This thread is doing OK, but we all seem to basically agree... it really needs some conflict.

Wonder if we can get Clive on the forums?

Quoting Banno

Wonder if we can get Clive on the forums?

Too many of his accolates already here. You know how modest Clive is in giving his underlings credit for for coming up with his great ideas. Which raises the question,"Who modelled himself on whom, Donald or Clive?" And relative age may not hold the answer, as presumably, both can read and listen, although that could be contested.

chuckly smile

Quoting Banno

This thread is doing OK, but we all seem to basically agree... it really needs some conflict.

Let's do it ourselves.

Peter Dutton should be the next PM (if he wins his seat), because.... spellcheck is American and doesn't recognize "Dutton" as a word/entity. Therefore, because Trump is imposing tariffs on us, we need a strong leader who is an unknown quantity to the advisors encouraging Trump's economic and foreign policies/adventures and who can keep them in fear/the dark of his (Dutton's) capabilities to damage the Trump administration's appeal to all good American patriots.
All agreed?

A balloon smile

Quoting kazan

...who can keep them in fear/the dark of his (Dutton's) capabilities...

He has capabilities??

Quoting Banno

He has capabilities??

Of course. He can dodge and weave and backtrack better than D Trump, so he is a worthy adversary. A bigger bully ( look how coherent the Libs have been ,up until recently, over the last 2 1/2 years) is what this country needs to deal with foreign bullies, not a mumbler like Albo (if he wins his seat, just added this to show no bias).

off to a good start smile

Quoting Banno

Australia does not have much water.

This was removed "pending review". Even the Guardian reads your posts. Are your a Murdock lost/forgotten child. Who runs the Guardian, anyway?

Time for tea, that is cook and prepare!

sly smile

Reply to kazan :lol:

it was an environmental group claiming that a reactor would need a thousands times the available water it there was danger of a melt down, complete with Liberal excuses.

Might look for another version...

Nuclear an expensive threat to Queensland's drinking water and communities

Nuclear Power – Research Summary: Department of the Premier and Cabinet

Quoting Banno

Might look for another version...

Thanks.

tired smile

Quoting Banno

uclear an expensive threat to Queensland's drinking water and communities

Hmm. Interesting concealment of facts by you know who.

Quoting Banno

Nuclear Power – Research Summary: Department of the Premier and Cabinet

Have to read those 20 pages later. Hunger may distort a full appreciation.

still tired smile

Quoting kazan

At least it keeps some fresh blood running into the big media's collapsing advertising veins.

I’m afraid to say nothing about Clive Palmer is fresh. Everything about him is stale, verging on putrid. That media organisations have to feed off his hubris is disappointing in the extreme.

Also tired smile.

Alan Kohler, again: We're at a turning point in world history but our leaders are distracted

Given that our great and powerful friend has abdicated it's responsibilities and handed management of the world over to China, this forthcoming election has some import.

But we are stuck with mediocre leadership. And a potato.

Japan, South Korea, India and Indonesia are now those to whom we need to tie our wagon.

Quoting Banno

abdicated it's responsibilities

responsibilities? :chin:

Reply to frank The traitor-in-chief is actively, if not directly, killing millions word wide. Yep, the USA in the last month or so has reneged on responsibilities undertaken over the last eighty years.

Militarily, can Australia expect support under AUKUS and even ANZUS, given that NATO is on thin ice?

The present US administration has shown that it cannot be trusted.

Quoting Banno

The present US administration has shown that it cannot be trusted.

Kind of in the same way China can't be trusted. I was talking to a Kenyan about the weird things China does. They come in claiming they're going to employ Kenyans, they do photo ops, put up billboards with rainbows on them, and then the Chinese use Kenyan prisoners as slave labor.

Would the US do this? :chin:

Quoting frank

Kind of in the same way China can't be trusted.

...and that neither can be trusted shows us what?

The point being made is that the USA was reliable, and now it isn't. So why do business with them?

What MAGA misses is that the USA is not the whole game; indeed, it's not even the main game any longer, and it is actively working to decrease it's influence.

Reply to Banno
Imagine that you first found out that foreigners hate Australia when you were about 12. Since then that's always been in the wings as you encounter non-Australians. For the most part they hate you.

They moan and moan year after year about how ugly you are, how everything Australia does is fucked up, how the world would be MUCH better off without you, on and on and on, endlessly.

Then one day Australia feels like it's time to bounce off the global stage. Some native isolationism starts kicking. Now what do you hear?

They're moaning because Australia used to be reliable. They used to be sane. They used to save hundreds of millions of lives on the regular. They used to be there to defend us. And now they're GONE! Do you think you might be a little bemused? Anyway, the US never had any responsibilities.

Reply to frank The USA can do as it pleases. But having said that it would provide aid, defence materials and so on, and then having rapidly and unilateral backed out out of those undertakings, others will respond appropriately. Again, since the USA has shown itself to be unreliable, why should we do business?

There are other places to buy things.

(Indeed, I contemplated a personal ban on buying US produce, only to realise that extended as far as the occasional TimTam.)

Quoting frank

...the US never had any responsibilities

One example: the US said it would provide aid, then reneged. Hence, it is unreliable. See What Trump's USAID freeze means for the rest of the world

Quoting The Independent

The Washington-based Malaria No More says new modeling shows that just a year of disruption in the malaria-control supply chain would lead to nearly 15 million additional cases and 107,000 additional deaths globally. It has urged the Trump administration to “restart these life-saving programs before outbreaks get out of hand.”

Reply to Banno
If I were you I would limit purchases from the US due to carbon emissions involved in shipping.

Reply to frank US postal rates are so much higher than other regions - Canada, for example - that again, we don't make such purchases.

Again, the point MAGA misses is that the US has no monopoly on production. If you make it harder to buy or sell into the USA, we will buy or sell elsewhere.

Do you know the expression "Cutting off your nose to spite your face"?

Reply to Banno
Sorry, you didn't read my post so I'm not going to read yours. :cool:

Quoting frank

responsibilities? :chin:

Yes, responsibilities - things the US undertook to do, then backed out of.

Quoting frank

China can't be trusted.

Nor can the USA, as it turns out.

Quoting frank

Do you think you might be a little bemused?

I hope I would be aghast.

Quoting frank

I would limit purchases from the US

Such purchases are very few.

Quoting frank

...you didn't read my post

I think I did, but you didn't like the response.

Quoting Banno

Do you know the expression "Cutting off your nose to spite your face"?

But thanks for boosting this thread.

Reply to Banno
:grin: I wish you well though. Tim Tams aren't American, so you can buy them guilt free.

Quoting frank

Tim Tams aren't American

Indeed, famously Australian, but Arnott's were purchased by the US corporate Campbell's Soup in 1997. There followed an explosion of varieties in the crass US tradition, including of all things a cheese variety for the Indonesian market.

Divided loyalties.

Quoting Banno

Indeed, famously Australian, but Arnott's were purchased by the US corporate Campbell's Soup in 1997. There followed an explosion of varieties in the crass US tradition, including of all things a cheese variety for the Indonesian market.

Divided loyalties.

Oh, I see. In honor of Campbell's soup and Andy Warhol, you should take one of the Tim Tam packages, frame it, and put it on the wall. The art isn't the package, it's in the experience of staring at it in a frame. Just take note of what goes through your soul as you're staring at it. See how great America is?

Reply to frank If you need folk to genuflect, then I do agree that the US was a great civilisation.

The issue in this particular thread is, what next? Especially for us, in our parochial Dow Nunder considerations.

Quoting Banno

If you need folk to genuflect, then I do agree that the US was a great civilisation.

Really? I'm surprised you would say that. It did have some cool things in it.

Given recent indiscretions, to what extent can we rely on the US as a member of the Five Eyes?

Looks like NZ is no longer the weak link...

It's all going to hell, man. Beans are spilling all over the place!

Quoting frank

It's all going to hell, man.

Well, the USA is fucked. The rest of us will have to learn to accomodate that fact. We'll get by without them. The details will need to be worked out. That's part of what this election is now about.

Reply to Banno
Stressful times I guess. Not as bad as the pandemic though, right?

May 3rd.

So much for my sources. Nice timing, though, to keep attention off Dutton's reply last night. The timing also means that a day of Senate Estimates of the budget has been scrapped. Here's a neat summation. Basically he says he will be a strong leader, but in the wrong direction.

Poll Bludger might be worth the look, aggregating and analysing poll data for our consumption.

Looks very much like a hung parliament.

Quoting Banno

March 3rd.

May 3.

I think it's going to be a very dull campaign. Anything you think we should watch for?

I’m disappointed with these cheap vote-buying gambits from both sides (tax and excise giveaways). There’s no vision being offered. I think Albanese a mediocrity although Dutton is worse, and I think Labor overall has more political talent. I can’t abide Dutton’s pissweak scare campaigning. Plus the nuclear option is a non- starter. So I will be holding my nose and voting Labor (although I think mine is a safe Labor seat.)

Reply to Tom Storm I was still asleep...

Quoting Tom Storm

a very dull campaign

Yep. But the results, with the possibility of a hung parliament makes the results potentially interesting. So the antics of the Greens and minor parties are worth a look, as well as the independents. That means looking locally.

Here, Pockock is a shoo in. Jessie Price is an independent standing in Bean, and who may shake things up a bit, against the ALP's David Smith. The Libs are of course doing their best to appeal to ACT voters by promising to sack 40,000 public servants.

Reply to Wayfarer So you are not convinced by a fiver off your tank of fuel? But I'm guessing you don't drive a RAM...

Is there an independent in your electorate?

Quoting Wayfarer

So I will be holding my nose and voting Labor (although I think mine is a safe Labor seat.)

I did this throughout the 1980's as they gleefully thrust neo-liberalism upon us.

Quoting Wayfarer

I think Albanese a mediocrity

And boring too.

I have Greens Adam Bant and Ellen Sandall as my Federal and State reps.

Reply to Tom Storm Bandt is a bit too left for my liking. The Greens are a party of protest and are too immured to green-left ideology. I might have mentioned I once handed out How to Vote for Greens in a state election. Then I went to a State party meeting and got disillusioned with them quick smart. I wish there was a viable alternative party, but there's not.

Quoting Tom Storm

I have Greens Adam Bant and Ellen Sandall as my Federal and State reps.

That's the price of having good coffee.

Quoting Wayfarer

I wish there was a viable alternative party, but there's not.

At the least, put an independent before the ALP and give the buggers a scare...?

Take advantage of the preferential system to express your dissatisfaction while still not supporting the Libs?

Reply to Banno I would vote for the likes of Pocock or one or two of the others, but collectively, independents are pretty useless, as a matter of definition. My local member is Susan Templeman, I guess she's a backbencher as you never hear much of her, but she will be getting my vote.

Oh, and Zali Steggel. She’s effective. Besides she disposed of the Mad Monk

Quoting Wayfarer

I might have mentioned I once handed out How to Vote for Greens in a state election.

My partner helped support one of their campaigns. Disorganized, collectivist shenanigans.

Quoting Banno

That's the price of having good coffee.

Could be... I only drink it at home.

Reply to Wayfarer I went to a Billy Shorten campaign speech at a local town hall before the 2019 Federal Election. My partner then was helping the local Labor candidate to try and unseat the corrupt Liberal incumbent. Penny Wong worked the crowd up into a frenzy. "Ladies and gentleman, I give you next prime minister of Australia: Bill Shorten!" Bill trotted up on stage and turned to face the audience. His grey, anxious, face sucked the air and excitement from the room. There was a mass exhalation from the detumescent crowd. I knew instantly he wasn't going to win.

Reply to Tom Storm I watched that election from a friend's place. Very dissappointing, but Shorten's Labor was too complacent by far, they were certain they had it in the bag. Sure as hell hope it doesn't happen this time. Much as I'm unimpressed by Albanese, I think a Dutton government would be a very bad outcome. I'm not worried by the prospect of a minority government split between Labor, Greens and Independents, in fact it might give some of the Independents a bit more clout.

Reply to Wayfarer :up:

Why Canberra loves the Liberals...
Quoting Gardian

James Paterson was also asked about the Coalition’s plan to cut 41,000 public servants.

The host noted there were only 80,000 in Canberra, “so half of the public servants in this town will go”.

Paterson said the details would be outlined soon on how the Coalition will reach its target:

We’ve been very clear we don’t think Australians have got good value from the increase of 41,000 that’s happened on this government’s watch.
Asked if the government would need contractors in their place, Paterson again said that details would be coming soon:

I’m not going to go ahead on my colleagues who have announcements to make in that area until it is time to talk about it.

A large number will be hired back as consultants for more cash and lower security, further undermining impartiality and lowering face-to-face service delivery.

Notice the play, "vote for us, but we won't tell you what we are going to do..."

The Conversation's Policy tracker

Reply to Banno :up: Good to know.

Albo - supermarkets already are taking the piss.

I think this 'price controls on supermarkets' is populist talk-back radio nonsense. We don't live in a command economy.

I'd like to see the two largest broken into four.

Quoting Wayfarer

I’m afraid to say nothing about Clive Palmer is fresh. Everything about him is stale, verging on putrid. That media organisations have to feed off his hubris is disappointing in the extreme.

Agreed. Not his blood though, just the dollars bilked from the nickel refinery workers of Townsville and all the other blood, sweat and tears ripped off in other close-to-the edge dealings that pass for sharp usiness practice nowadays ( and in the past history of big "C" capitalism without conscience).

again another sad smile

Quoting frank

If I were you I would limit purchases from the US due to carbon emissions involved in shipping.

Why stop at the US. Let's return to living off the produce of our backyards and bare hands only and walking to a common bartering point, in the nude if we don't have a fig tree leaf, to get the specials of the week.
We like our gadgets and they all come to us via emissions. Where they are made shouldn't concern us if we "can't' do without them.

Smart countries/a smart scheme would buy up big those "things" only produced in the US, warehouse them, wait for all the other countries to escalate the tariff war with the US with their own anti-US tariffs. Then sell US made goods/things to the other countries at under their anti US tariffs prices.
All we got to do is stay on everybody's "good side" and apply no tariffs to anyone, meanwhile growing our own home made industries off of the taxes, paid ( or not) by participating smart companies in the above scheme.

Simple!

Oh, for a world of fair and considerate business dealings.

yet another sad smile with a suggestion of a laugh

Quoting Banno

. The Libs are of course doing their best to appeal to ACT voters by promising to sack 40,000 public servants.

At least put an exclamation mark at the end of that sentence....in case we miss your sat/casm!

big smile

Quoting Banno

67c54c24c10f7f8aca08c4e3_Electoral-Map-All-Candidates.jpg

Where's Helen Haines, Ind. for Indie, NE Vic ? Or is this election blinding one of its ( oh so clever!) citizens. She should have done enough to get back in in this "hung parliament" election.
Addendum: Found her over in the S. A. Independents with a long line back to her electorate. Sorry, can't see for loooking

Also, the Dutton excise exercise is to win votes in the outer city electorates and in the bush where the savings will/may be worth more than a fiver to the households' weekly driving costs. It's not likely to impress city and enviro voters despite the fact that all prices should drop proportionately due to everyone's reliance on oils for transporting... not that the transport or any big companies will reduce their potential profit rises by reducing their charges.

normal slightly bored/fed up smile

Quoting Banno

That's the price of having good coffee.

An examination of the coffee industry would show little GREEN about it... just to add to your point.
Quoting Banno

Take advantage of the preferential system to express your dissatisfaction while still not supporting the Libs?

Could be dangerous this time round.Quoting Wayfarer

I think this 'price controls on supermarkets' is populist talk-back radio nonsense. We don't live in a command economy.

Agreed.Quoting Banno

I'd like to see the two largest broken into four.

Twice as much work for an under resourced ACCC, just as much collusion and an excellent reason to raise prices by all four... less return to scale purchasing power, (quote/unquote) will be their excuse, for sure.
A suggestion: Just buy (properly researched) specials only of what you know you (will and do) need and curb your impulsive unneeded buying. That wastes their ad dollars. Supermarkets hate tightfisted savvy customers. They will lash back somehow, so be prepared.
All of the above is easier said than done, malheursement!
Please pardon the poor high school French affectation.

just an uncomplicated smile, this time.

Quoting kazan

...Helen Haines...

Just below Esperance in WA... sorta floating in the air...

I see you found her.


Keep in mind that most electorates are outer city...


Quoting kazan

Could be dangerous this time round.

On reflection I can see quite a few advantages in a hung parliament. Bring it.

Here are the recommendations.

Aspects of Australia’s supermarket sector, which is dominated by Coles and Woolworths, are not working well and this is leading to poorer outcomes for consumers and suppliers than would be expected in a more competitive market.

New Yougov data.

Take a look at the projected vote share. Add ALP, greens and half the independents together. 61.3% chance of a hung parliament.

For once, and pleasingly, the two-party preferred vote is at present irrelevant.

You can check out your own electorate. Bean will stay ALP.

Aspects of Australia’s supermarket sector, which is dominated by Coles and Woolworths, are not working well and this is leading to poorer outcomes for consumers and suppliers than would be expected in a more competitive market.

Just looking into the crystal ball powered by history. Who, as an individual, has the smarts to challenge such an august body of bright individuals' findings when they are ringbarked by politicians wishing for a particular finding/outcome?
Cynical? No. It's the realpolitik.
Just can't see an real relief in just splitting up companies when the the Corporation Act allows so many, much used loopholes 'to carry on business as usual'.
Sorry, Banno... here we aren't fully on the same page.

smile

Maybe, and this is tongue in cheek, we should invoke National Security concerns about food security, malnutrition and other health security to put a lie to Wayfarer's assertion of not being a command economy. We are, in the national security areas anyway,like all nations.

Sorry, tea time.



"starving" smile

Be thankful for proportional voting. Here's what the alternative looks like, in a nation not too dissimilar to Down Nunder.



See the ad at 2:35 for fairvote.ca - that's that, then?

The Coalition leader also accused Labor of running a scare campaign concerning the proposed changes.

"Why do they want to scare women when the policy doesn't affect anybody except for public servants in Canberra?" he said.

Shock revelation! Apparently there are WOMEN working in the public service in Canberra!! Who knew?? Certainly not Dutton.

Don't you just love election season?
Rabbits out of the hat, gaffs, about-faces, intense media scrutiny but not really listening and thinking it through, airlines filling their planes with polies, their helpers and paparratzi, baby kissing,hard hat tours etc, etc. Oh, and the fine line between bs and "truth" being redefined hourly.

Quoting Banno

Certainly not Dutton.

Dutton probably didn't realize there are women in the Canberra PS because "Don't they all work from home?".... another about-face.

just a smile

Quoting kazan

Don't you just love election season?

Not really. I generally avoid the news and I'm not on social media. The cant and mawkish promises are nauseating, and political journalism just feels like a smug version of sports reporting. I generally know how I’m going to vote, regardless of the year or the state of the campaign. Usually, I just hold my nose and vote Labor.

So first debate coming up - on Sky, ffsake. Reply to Tom Storm, presumably, will not be watching. Nor will I, because fuck Sky.

Oh, is it. Grounds for boycott. I’ll read about it in the morning.

*Hits cameraman with a ball*

Oh haha got him; got him. What a shot.

*Cameraman starts bleeding*

Shooks hands with cameraman and offer him a pint of beer to make up for the incident.

Peter Dutton seemed like a decent guy there. I hope he didn't behave because the election season is underway.

Cheers for the cameraman anyway!

The video:

The debate was pretty much a non-event. 44 Albo/35 Dutton/21 undecided.

Annabel Crab asked if that 21% "were undecided, or possibly watching something on their phones."

Sky news is somewhat dumfounded, looking for anything to support the conservatives... "Albanese edges out Dutton, but fails to win over majority of voters at leaders’ debate"

Again, a hung parliament looks the most likely outcome.

Anyway, no one was watching.

Quoting Banno

Anyway, no one was watching.

Do you think Aussies lost political attitudes? Or did you simply become more neutral than ever?

I don't know... Given the current state of politics, I believe a lack of interest in politics is understandable. [edited to make more sense to my reply to Banno]

Quoting javi2541997

I don't know... Given the current state of politics, I believe a lack of interest in politics is understandable.

The argument works the other way too. Given what's at stake and how bad some leaders are, this should radicalise the voters. Arguably people's votes have never been more important.

Most interest in politics is little more than team sport, point scoring and empty wins.

I vote most elections and it's either vote Labor or for the most left-wing independent going. I still subscribe to the view that the rich rule the world (badly) and need to be opposed as far as practicable.

Arguably the biggest asset to the Murdochs and Musks of this world is voter apathy. It really helps the fascists if people think all candidates are hopeless and all are corrupt.

Reply to Tom Storm Agree. I’m not overly impressed with Albanese, but overall the Labor cabinet seems far more capable to me than the alternative.

Reply to Tom Storm Interesting, Tom. It is true that it also makes sense if we see it in the other way.

I knew you were a Labour voter when I started sharing ideas and views with you in this thread. I believe you also already told me. So, it is clear that you will vote for a left-wing approach.

Although apathetic voters can help billionaires like Musk, I still believe that people lost confidence in politicians for a lot of reasons. I think politics should be a boring job again and not this kind of circus controlled by the current showman. It is time for discussing the important matter in the parliament for hours and not writing a "tweet" or saying a weird thing because media will cover it.

I'm not sure if I'm to blame for my own apathy, but I have only voted in European elections in recent years. I often vote in my local council's elections. However, I believe my vote is wasted. It's intriguing how you perceive it, Tom: it's better to vote than not. You believe in the system, which is significant.

Quoting javi2541997

Do you think Aussies lost political attitudes? Or did you simply become more neutral than ever?

Neither. Rather it's the two main parties who have become more neutral than ever... folk want politicians who will act, which is something the Lib/Nats and ALP have become incapable of doing.

Reply to Banno Yes, that's the problem. All the emphasis these days is on economic performance, neither party will propose anything that will obviously negatively affect the constituents' bottom line.

@Banno and also Reply to Janus Reply to Tom Storm Reply to Wayfarer

I just found on Google this interesting analysis (Australian voters may not be deeply polarised) that is relevant to what we discussed this week. The most 'meh' election you have witnessed.

Patricia Karvelas - ABC AU.:The new research demonstrates: Australian voters are not deeply polarised or highly enthusiastic; instead, they are both uncertain and ambivalent. To put it bluntly, we are the anti-America. Where, in the US, people are toxically polarised and unable to see politics through any other prism than their own partisan lens, in Australia our passions are lower but so are our biases.

The fact that the polarisation in your country is relatively lower than in many other countries, I believe that means something positive: that Aussie people didn't get sick from the poison of politics. I don't confuse apathy with ambivalence here. It is important because key challenges (such as climate change) would not be affected by polarisation. It will be worthwhile to follow the election season of this beautiful country, where people appear to be mature and cautious. We have much to learn from you here in Spain.

Reply to javi2541997 That’s pretty right. Australians generally have a pretty low tolerance for bullshit (which is why we have a lot of trouble understanding how Trump got voted in). We believe in ‘the fair go’. And also I think our Westminster-style parliamentary democracy (which we have in common with Britain) is preferable to the presidential republic model of the States.

Quoting Wayfarer

And also I think our Westminster-style parliamentary democracy (which we have in common with Britain) is preferable to the presidential republic model of the States.

I also like that parliamentary style, where the debates and legislation are serious. Not a show in which the showman shouts bollocks while his political group members applaud or the opposition throws acid. This is the toxic foggy ambience in which some of us are.

Reply to javi2541997 I don’t hear much about Spanish politics, other than that people were furious over the flood responses, and that the Spanish PM appears a charismatic fellow.

Reply to Wayfarer The less that you hear about the politics in my country, the better. Our chaotic way of managing a state might make you feel dizzy. We still have a 'royal family', which causes a lot of problems. Catalonia has been an important territorial crisis, despite having abandoned their independence movement, etc.

At least we are kind; the weather is great and the food is lovely. :razz:

Reply to javi2541997 not to mention the many great aspects of Spanish culture, like Flamenco.



(OK he’s Brazilian but the music is pure Spanish.)

The consensus in the Australian media I follow is that Albanese is streets ahead of Dutton, who has tried and failed to play the fear-monger card. His party is still spending money on ‘who is Peter Dutton’ ads - three weeks out from election day. Sure sign of a missed boat. He’s had to backflip on some policies, others (like his arm-waving nuclear energy policy) are vague and not yet costed - inexcusable, considering the stakes.

I do wonder if Australia’s dislike of Donald Trump is actually providing a bit of a boost for Labor’s fortunes. I think it’s probably driving the electorate a little to the left of where it might otherwise be.

Reply to Wayfarer so who’s the next Linerl leader.


They got nothin’.

Reply to Banno There have been articles on that, too - how Chalmers is a natural successor to Albo, but the only possibility they can see for the Libs is Angus Taylor, who’s awfully like a private-school prefect (speaking from experience.)

Michaela Cash.


“Look here! we found a woman”

This is very helpful for those (like me) who are not Australian but are interested in the next elections. Well, the world is large, and it is interesting to learn from others.

State of the states: six politics experts explain the key seats across the country.

New South Wales: How the 2025 federal election will play out in NSW is difficult to predict for two reasons: 1) The first is the recent redistribution which, as ABC analyst Antony Green’s pendulum shows, has redefined many electoral boundaries.
2) The second is the number of crossbench MPs.

Queensland: For decades we said Queensland was a key “battleground” in federal elections where seats north of the Tweed so often held the keys to The Lodge. But, for the past 15 years, federal elections have seen little movement in Queensland except, of course, for 2022 when the Greens won three seats.

South Australia: South Australia is rarely a key battleground in federal elections, and only comprises ten electoral seats. -- Wow! Just only that seats?

Tasmania: There are two main seats to watch in Tasmania. The large, rural seat of Lyons is one of the most marginal in the country. On the surface, Franklin – Australia’s only non-contiguous electorate – looks like a safe Labor seat. Another point of interest is who will pick up the votes won by the Jaquie Lambie Network (JLN) in 2022. The JLN is not running candidates following a spectacular implosion at state level – and where those voters find a home could be crucial, particularly in Lyons.

Be careful with the Tasmanian devil, mates!



Victoria: Victoria is shaping up to be a crucial state for the major parties. Several seats are held by the Labor and coalition parties with a margin of less than 5%. -- Folks will sing 'VICTORIA' after winning the seat.

Western Australia: The five WA seats to watch are Curtin, Bullwinkel, Forrest, Pearce and Tangney. -- Beautiful beaches, sunsets and that pink smoothy called 'Lake Hillier'. It takes me more than 20 hours to get there. So bad. Why are you that far from the rest of the world?

SO both major parties have policies that will drive up house prices.

And this is how they fix housing affordability.

Fucksake.

Reply to Banno Housing affordability is a worldwide problem, Banno. :wink:

Nobody anywhere knows how to stop it.

Quoting Alan Kohler

Australia should rethink its relationship with America because alliance is becoming obeisance.

Alan Kohler.

Reply to javi2541997 Australia's problems are to a large part the result of a policy introduced in the nineties that allows rent to be negatively geared.

If an investor buys a property and the rental income is less than the cost of maintaining it (including mortgage interest), they make a net loss. Under negative gearing, this loss can be deducted from the investor's other income.

This increased demand from investors, driving up property prices and excluding first-home buyers from the market.

Capital gains on investment properties are taxed at only 50% if held for more than a year. Combined with negative gearing, this makes speculative investment extremely attractive.

This has been central to the increase in wealth inequity seen here over the last twenty years.

From what aI have been able to work out, this is very different to the situation in Spain.

About 80% of the total dollar value of negative gearing deductions is claimed by people in the top 30% of income earners.

Too hard for the major parties to deal with.

The Greens have a different approach.

Quoting javi2541997

Nobody anywhere knows how to stop it.

Are you sure about that?

Quoting Banno

From what aI have been able to work out, this is very different to the situation in Spain.

We could have different issues, but the problems are the same: speculation and exclusion of first-home buyers.

Investors also have tax income benefits if they invest in real estate. Capital gains on investment properties are taxed only at 25% if you are an enterprise and just only 10% if you are a fund. For this reason, most of the buildings in central Madrid and Barcelona are owned by funds, not persons.

Apart from being a cheap investment, our government no longer constructs public housing. I believe they are concerned that most Spaniards will be unable to afford the loans. So the soil is free to be mined and speculated on.

Notice that the income of the average Spaniard is €1,500 or even less. The price of leasing a normal house is around €1,200, and the loans are around €700 per month. As you can see, property prices cut into Spaniards' ability to save.

A different context, yes. But we end up in the same problems as you: Housing affordability.

Oh, and of course that come from the 1990s. We also had neoliberalism here.

Reply to Jamal A simple response, here, would be removal of capital gains and negative gearing.

Reply to Banno Why are home prices so expensive in Australia? Consider that the four major banks make a large part of their income from mortgages. Therefore to maximise profit they will lend as much as safely possible. The market has no restrictions on foreign buyers,which increases the pool of buyers. Australia is seen as a safe haven in terms of economic opportiunity and political stability. So it stands to reason that house prices will be driven up by these factors. I think the measures should all be supply-side - there's a desparate need to build a great many more dwellings. But then there are also large labour shortages both skilled and unskilled. Many building companies have collapsed due to supply-chain and inflation issues. Labor talks the talk about building more homes, but their much-vaunted program has built none so far (according to the Opposition.) Here is Labor's policy announcement from a couple of weeks back. Economists don't seem to rate the Opposition policy very highly.

Nuclear energy - I still say it's bad for this to have become a partisan political issue. The Government, no matter which party, should seriously invest in acquiring skills and resources in nuclear energy construction, even without necessarily committing to build reactors. The industry is changing rapidly and it's quite possible that in a decade the whole picture will be different. There needs to be investment in it.

Quoting frank

f I were you I would limit purchases from the US due to carbon emissions involved in shipping.

Banno might have not read yr post but at least others did and the comment that came out of that, albeit 22 days later, is " We'll follow your example because you are in Banno's shoes (i.e. close enough to be Banno) and watch you secure a full knowledge of which of your purchases coming from the US you will limit, setting an example to us who wish to follow your suggestion."
Purchase of any thing tangible involves carbon emissions no matter how far it travels and how or where it is created. Wouldn't you agree?
Just a suggestion and acknowledgement that your posts are examined and cause reaction(s).

encouraging smile

See
https://www.productivity.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2024-11/20241114_NSW-PEC-report-Review-of-housing-supply-challenges-and-policy-options-for-New-South-Wales.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com

https://grattan.edu.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/How-to-tackle-Australias-housing-challenge-Grattan-Institute-submission.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Negative gearing and capital gains tax discount remain the largest factors influencing house price. Next is zoning and planning restrictions. Migration is hardly noticeable - a 1% increase population du to in migration leads to a 1% increase in housing demand.

RBA (2016) estimated that foreign demand may add a few percentage points to dwelling prices in select areas - Box Hill or Chatswood - but not across the country. FIRB approvals fell from $72 billion in 2015–16 to under $10 billion by 2021.

The Libs are full of shit in this regard.

Quoting Banno

The present US administration has shown that it cannot be trusted.

Agreed.

One of the unsaid (at least frequently and appropriately enough) comments that should qualify this whole world wide anti US rant.
Is it the country and its people who can't be trusted? Or the crumbs that have been swept to the top of the political system by the failings within that system? And, please don't quote the more than 50% of the voters story/excuse, we all know how unrepresentative democrazies can be of their populations' interests and wishes.
Thanks for the opening, Banno.

belated smile

Quoting kazan

Banno might have not read yr post

:chin: My response is the one immediately after Franks...

As it turns out, a piece of art we purchased from the States arrived an hour or so ago. Very light - less than a half-kilo - but cost $70 freight, including a CO? offset. About half the same thing from Canada. Odd.

(The item cost less than $50, but would probably sell in AU for $400. Things you find on eBay.)

Quoting kazan

Is it the country and its people who can't be trusted?

I specified the administration.

However, in practical terms it amounts to the same thing. If I do an deal with some individual in the USA, I can no longer be confident that the circumstances of that deal will remain as they are - that an arbitrary tariff or tax will not be imposed, that the exchange rate will remain predictable, and so on.

That's the problem.

Quoting Banno

If you make it harder to buy or sell into the USA, we will buy or sell elsewhere.

Quoting javi2541997

We could have different issues, but the problems are the same: speculation and exclusion of first-home buyers.

Sure, yet there are differences. I came across this:



From https://grattan.edu.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/How-to-tackle-Australias-housing-challenge-Grattan-Institute-submission.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com, fig 2.1, comparison of growth in housing stock over two decades. Zero growth.

@Banno,

How does a CO2 offset work? Does the penguin, carrying the piece of art from the US to here, hold its breath all the way? And then breath out, hence not adding CO2 to the atmosphere "of the USA and countries in between"?
Offsets are carbon tax and don't prevent ( or really discourage) CO2 being added to the atmosphere/environment, one could argue/suggest, perhaps?
.
Sorry if your "immediately after Franks" response has not been read, yet... Will hasten to that now....lol

big smile

Quoting kazan

How does a CO2 offset work?

It pays for more trees, as I understand it. Not claiming to be carbon neutral here.

Quoting Banno

So first debate coming up - on Sky, ffsake. ?Tom Storm
, presumably, will not be watching. Nor will I, because fuck Sky.

Know thy enemy. Sky's a great insight into the mindless. Well, it caters for the m/less!

small smile

Quoting Banno

It pays for more trees, as I understand it. Not claiming to be carbon neutral here.

So the delivery penguin should only exhale where trees can be grown...mmm!
Have a handle on your carbon attitude...same as here.... use it but minimize where reasonably possible.

time for tea smile

Quoting Banno

Sure, yet there are differences. I came across this:

Is this btw actual policy? Not to build new homes and hence keep the housing prices going steadily up?

Just check in the table UK. Same thing. Not much growth in housing. Big housing bubble there too. Also in Sweden, which also hasn't increased it's housing stock. Is this intentional by the political leadership?

Because if you let it to the markets, you would have a rapid boom and then a bust.

It keeps home owners happy voters. Rising prices home owners feel prosperous, even if they own just one home. Yet if the bubble bursts, there's a lot of bad consequences for banks and the financial sector as buying a home is the most expensive people usually done. The larger economy takes also a hit, because people might not own stocks, but they usually own a home. A bursting housing bubble is like applying a hand brake when braking: no matter if you have ABS brakes, that hand brake and you can lose control of the vehicle.

Reply to ssu As Reply to Wayfarer said, it's very much a supply-side deficit.

The Libs blaming immigration and foreign investment is bullshit.

Second election debate tonight, on ABC.

Might tune in. I doubt it will be better than Hard Quiz, which it replaces.

Quoting Banno

As ?Wayfarer said, it's very much a supply-side deficit.

The Libs blaming immigration and foreign investment is bullshit.

Yes, that obviously is that.

One reason can simply be that the banks and financial institutions do not want engage in competition.

Thus there are no aggressive banks that will loan either to builders that would rapidly increase the supply or discard loan requirements and start giving money to everybody, which would create a bubble. To create the classic housing bubble (and bust), you need aggressive banks that will hand out NINJA-loans (loans for people with no income, job or assets). Hence real estate bubble usually happen when the financial sector is deregulated.

So I guess the supply-side deficit can be either kept in place by banks or the government, or then likely with both agreeing on this. The drawback of this is that for new home buyers and for renters the situation is difficult. Yet if a large portions of Australians own their home, it's sound politics from the politicians to keep their voters happy by having their property wealth increasing.

Reply to ssu But isn’t lending to building companies inherently greater risk and lower reward than lending for mortgages? After all, the kind of finance builders require is to cover the cost of building up until sale of the property (although I admit I don’t know anything much about property development.) Whereas a mortgage is a loan that pays interest over a 25 year term. I had thought that would be a better investment from the bank’s perspective.

Quoting Wayfarer

But isn’t lending to building companies inherently greater risk and lower reward than lending for mortgages?

Yes, but still Trump could build a lot of buildings. And not all builders are such failures. Besides, you do need the apartments and housing in the first place for mortrages. And if you have population growth, there truly is a need for more housing. Banks do want to have companies also as their customers.

Quoting Wayfarer

I had thought that would be a better investment from the bank’s perspective.

From the banks perspective rising home/real estate prices are really a good thing. This is because if a lender cannot pay, they'll just take the home and sell it on a profit. And this is the reason just why mortrages appear to be with so little risk. When the real estate prices increase, the bank doesn't make any losses, even if some lenders default. This is why builders are good customers to banks, when prices rise. Also when those building the homes are smaller companies, they are perfect customers for banks. Larger corporations don't need banks as they simply can go directly to the financial markets.

The Housing debate was pretty unedifying stuff, but Michael Sukkar showed himself to be a bit of a cunt. He begins by refusing to answer the simple question "How many homes will you build?", instead relying the now tedious practice of attacking his opponent. Then he denies the condemnation of the tax policy, refusing to say if it has been modelled. He refuses to answer the question of how many social and affordable hoses would be built. His behaviour is exactly that which has turned folk away from watching political discussions.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-04-17/federal-election-debate-housing-policy-negative-gearing/105162886

His mother would not be proud.

With postal voting opening on the day after Easter Monday, only the can't care less and the old and terrified will be postal voting early....Why?
'Cos no one really knows which political party will be springing a doozy or two of a policy at the 11th hour.
There only seems to be one consistent policy between the two major party groups and that is 'string out the drip feed for as long as possible to appear to be having an election battle'.
The reality is there's little on offer for the voters and little difference between the actual lists of promises.
It's an acute lack of options on offer this election with a huge bunch of problems to be resolved in the upcoming term..... like a poisoned chalice on offer but no one wants to get too close to handle it in fear of getting it wrong and falling out of favour at the next couple of elections. ( Rather like the looming
$ trillion deficit white elephant of the last Fed election.)
Put simply...classic political arse covering. Effective leadership? Not around here, mate!

Quoting Banno

His mother would not be proud.

Can you even presume upon motherhood to be a certain guiding force of good, nowadays?
Doubtful, it could be argued. Even as your point is taken on board.

barely a smile

Meh. I'll be voting early for reasons of simple convenience. Those who would change their vote because of some last minute change in policy place too much trust in politicians.

Sky news, after a few days of begrudging headlines suggesting that the polls indicate the Libs might not win, have today turned on the Teals.

Quoting Banno

Those who would change their vote because of some last minute change in policy place too much trust in politicians.

Even when the last minute change in policy of Party A or Independent B will negatively affect the voter, changing the vote away from Party A or Independent B is not placing too much trust in politicians. That's strategic voting for self interest...... the current interpretation of Democracy's best workplace practice, isn't it?

if only it was otherwise smile

Quoting Banno

Sky news, after a few days of begrudging headlines suggesting that the polls indicate the Libs might not win, have today turned on the Teals.

That's Plan B for the right/more conservative.
If you can't win, be disruptive....(like the Trumpetty Party.)
And sling beaucoup mud and tell everyone later, at every opportunity when in opposition, "See, I told you so!"
Mind you, that seems to be either side's Plan B when in opposition.
Why can't oppositions in democracies go along with "good" legislation and talk about how cooperative they were in that previous term? Probably because of the Westminster System of adversity governance!
We really need a change to more nuanced governance or it's the US style for us.
Perhaps that change is in the making with the occasional seat going to new parties? But do they( the newer parties) understand their full potential future role? A Senate down change, possibly.
Stability is the stumbling issue, of course.

smile

And anyway, the western world ( in particular) is moving away from left/right optics politics to radical hero/strong man image politics, it may be seen and argued by some.

rant ending, slightly embarrassed smile

The third debate was sold as avoiding the talking points, but consist in questions aimed at evoking talking points...

Yawn.

Reply to Banno Haven't seen as much as a sound bite from this election campaign so far, thankfully. But I have noticed that the big issue facing us, the housing affordability and supply crisis, is being assiduously avoided by the L&L parties at all costs, God forbid they start treating housing as a right and a place to live rather than an investment opportunity for middle class and rich cunts. Of course this hasn't stopped them from providing token, bogus solutions which will only deepen the housing affordability problem. Hopefully this will all be over before you can say negative gearing.... Think I'm going to vote Green this time. Don't tell my mum.

Reply to Tom Storm Goodonya. Still deciding between green and indi in the reps, but probably Pocock in the senate.

One Nation and the Liberal Party have apparently done a vote deal. Hanson has pulped how to vote cards in order to put the Liberals ahead of Teals. Liberal cards place Hanson second.

One Nation preferences are needed for Dickson - A 3% swing would see Dutton out of parliament. That's less than the number of folk who drew the traditional dick and balls - 3.9% of votes in Dickson were informal last election.

Do informal votes still automatically count as primary votes for the incumbent or their party? Would be tricky if the incumbent was an independent not running again.

Can't remember where that idea came from?

Oh yes, that it! To stop dissent for compulsory secret voting.

curious smile

Dutton thinks a dozen eggs cost $4.20.

The last debate was a rehash, of course. That bastion of the "hate media", the Guardian, has a summation: Who won the final leaders’ debate? Seven takeaways from Albanese v Dutton

As for Sky...

Despite the public result, Sky News host Paul Murray called the debate result for Mr Dutton.
“Peter Dutton clearly won the debate, and this will not be one of those 50-50 calls,” he said.

Fatih at work?

Reply to Banno There's what looks like a significant story broken today in the ABC, Dutton failing to declare financial interest in a profitable family trust involved with childcare industry, some hint of connection to that crook Eddy Groves who was busted a few years ago. I bet Mutton's 'hate speech' jibe was because he'd gotten wind of the story breaking.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-04-28/peter-dutton-failed-to-disclose-interest-in-family-trust/105217880

Reply to Wayfarer Yes. it'll be a big story only if the private media pick it up. As it stands, it'll be rejected as "Hate Media".

Sky's headline? "Albanese forced to admit he doesn’t have Trump’s number after claiming president might not have a phone".

Reply to Banno Anyone who pays attention to Sky is a lost cause already. They don’t have the clout here that Fox does in the US anyway,

Reply to Wayfarer I pay attention to to Sky - for the amusement value.

A bit of analysis on AUKUS from the Australian Institute of International Affairs - Built on "Hopes and Dreams" – AUKUS and the Future of Australian Foreign Policy

A deal made without consideration by parliament, mind you...

The AUKUS pact — between Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States — was announced publicly in September 2021 by then-Prime Minister Scott Morrison. It involved major strategic commitments, including Australia acquiring nuclear-powered submarines, a significant shift in defense policy. There was no prior debate or vote in Parliament before the announcement. The deal was negotiated and agreed upon at the executive level (primarily within the Prime Minister’s Office, Department of Defence, and Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade). Australia's system (a Westminster-style parliamentary democracy) allows the executive considerable discretion in foreign affairs and defense treaties. Constitutionally, the government can enter international agreements without needing parliamentary approval beforehand — although subsequent aspects (like budget appropriations, military base changes, or enabling legislation) may require Parliament's involvement.
After the announcement, the AUKUS deal and its implications have been debated in Parliament and the media, but the original decision was executive-driven.

Now no one will back down. Classic escalation of commitment.

One last explanation before you go buy a sausage...


...and it might be useful for the foreigners to learn how a democracy does voting.

@Banno @Tom Storm @Wayfarer @kazan

24 hours to go folks. Are you nervous? :smirk:

I am reading 'Election Day Reminders', and this one blew my mind:

It’s compulsory: Voting in the 2025 federal election is compulsory for the 18.1 million people on the electoral roll. Anyone who does not cast a vote will not only miss out on having their say in the election but will also receive a non-voter notice and may have to pay a fine.

Holy Moly, I thought that only happened in South America.

The time difference between Spain and AU is +8. So, when I wake up tomorrow morning, I guess most of the election day will probably be in its twilight.