Finnish basic income experiment 2017-2018

Quoting jorndoe

More importantly, what's your take?

Even if I consider myself a conservative, I will take the benefits of a welfare system to a system without it. The largest benefits are simply not measurable, like social cohesion, far more safety. That "happiness" that we are said to have in this country (see Finland tops world happiness ranking for 7th year in a row). Like the fact that criminals are those that really genuinely want to be criminals. The fact that there are no beggars in the streets (or if there are, they have flown from Romania here) and no panhandlers trying to make a swindle. That my 12-year old daughter is safe to walk in the city center to school and to her friends homes, which basically has the most crime in the Capital. Never underestimate, just how beneficial and awesome social cohesion in a society is.

Yes, there are also negative aspects. It is huge economic burden and someone like Elon Musk would see it as wasteful. First and foremost, once you are in "the system", apathy can really take over and you can simply get "institutionalized". Meaning that a person will look for work just for so much time. Yet when you give up, you really can give up: your won't find yourself living in the street as a hobo.

In this kind of system, a basic income might help, because otherwise you are constantly waiting for the next appointment with the social welfare employee, going on the next course or something. The universal income is not as dramatic as it sounds when you get already the assistance to having a home and the unemployment benefits perpetually, if you don't work. That adds up to an "universal income".

There's a story (that I've already told somewhere, but I'll repeat it) that a Finnish policeman I know told us about this alienation: consider you are young, but have never had a job. Then consider that your parents have never held a job. Then consider also that your grandparents have never held a job. This kind of situation isn't typical, it is the exception, but it is reality for some in Finland. How difficult, psychologically is it to then get into a work life from those surroundings? Because unemployment is still a stigma: you aren't capable enough, the World isn't made for you, stupid. It's for better people.

Financial crisis can hit individuals for rest of their lives. When we had our housing bubble/banking crisis and severe recession in the 1990's, 50 000 people from the construction sector got laid off and basically the majority worked never in their lives again. Never, straight to basically retirement. That can happen. Those people were forgotten, and it's a quite a high number as there were only 5 million people. As one person in the construction business said: a lot of the alcoholics got dumped away during that time.

Then there's the real question of time: OK, will you either live very modestly and have all the in World and be like a retired person, or will you use work a shitty job without that spare time and basically have a similar tight financial situation? Many will opt for the first option.

Because once you have that "career background", once you are a so-called professional, then it's far more easy. You can really decide which type of work you want, because many employers will want to hire you and you can simply change jobs, if you don't like it. The divide between those in the workforce and those in "the system" is huge. Perhaps not as huge as between the vagrant homeless person and the white-collar worker in the US, but still.

Quoting ssu

That "happiness" that we are said to have in this country (see Finland tops world happiness ranking for 7th year in a row).

Quoting The Guardian

It is now often known as the ‘world’s happiest country’, but Finland used to have one of the highest suicide rates in the world.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich As I said. We Finns are genuinely surprised that we should be the most happy people in the World. Like, really? What the hell is wrong you with others?

Reply to ssu Well, speaking for myself, I happen to live in a geographical region that is not as climatically castigated as the region that you live in. And by that I mean that it's not snowing all the time. Snow is beautiful, sure. But I'd probably be somewhat depressed if all I ever saw outside was snow.

Reply to Arcane SandwichSnow is nice. It's not the snow, it's when there isn't any snow and when it's pitch black dark, wet and raining. Imagine waking up and going to work and it's dark. During the day you might see from the window that the sun came up for few hours, yet the sunrise turns into sunset quite rapidly. Then after you finish at work it is again dark. Oh boy, does it get dark. And it rains here far more than in the UK. Now the good thing is that during the summer the nights are extremely short and in the north the sun doesn't go down, but in the winter it doesn't come up. It really can affect the mood of people. It's called "Kaamos masennus" seasonal affective disorder or seasonal depression.



Many people from milder climates can really suffer, especially if they have for some reason ended up living here all alone.

Reply to ssu Very insightful. Well, but at least you can enjoy the aurora borealis, right? That has to have some positive effect on the mental health of the northern peoples.

Reply to Arcane SandwichA bit off the topic, but only in the freezing north. In the south aurora borealis don't have the color or have very little color, they look like clouds at first during the night, but you can notice the difference as the change form.

Northern Finland:


Southern Finland:

Thanks Reply to ssu :up: