What are the top 5 heavy metal albums of all time?
I'll start. I will pay no due respect to tradition. My favorite five heavy metal albums of all time are the following:
1. The "Firestorm" Studio EP by Earth Crisis.
1. "Destroy the Machines" by Earth Crisis.
3. "Salvation of Innocents" by Earth Crisis.
4. "Black Sabbath" by Black Sabbath.
5. "Mundo Guanaco" by Almafuerte.
I expect everyone reading this to disagree with the top five that I've listed. I expect a ton of hate for a lot of things, here. First, for the very presence of Earth Crisis in a list about heavy metal albums. My reply to that: Whatever, I don't care. Earth Crisis is just as Heavy Metal as it is Hardcore Punk. If Amebix can get listed as a Heavy Metal band, then so can Earth Crisis. And if anyone has a problem with that, then I'll just say that "My Band Can Beat Up Your Band". Yeah, it's a fallacy, I know. That's the joke. It's basically a trope at this point.
So, let's hear it. What are the top 5 heavy metal albums of all time, In Your Honest Opinion?
1. The "Firestorm" Studio EP by Earth Crisis.
1. "Destroy the Machines" by Earth Crisis.
3. "Salvation of Innocents" by Earth Crisis.
4. "Black Sabbath" by Black Sabbath.
5. "Mundo Guanaco" by Almafuerte.
I expect everyone reading this to disagree with the top five that I've listed. I expect a ton of hate for a lot of things, here. First, for the very presence of Earth Crisis in a list about heavy metal albums. My reply to that: Whatever, I don't care. Earth Crisis is just as Heavy Metal as it is Hardcore Punk. If Amebix can get listed as a Heavy Metal band, then so can Earth Crisis. And if anyone has a problem with that, then I'll just say that "My Band Can Beat Up Your Band". Yeah, it's a fallacy, I know. That's the joke. It's basically a trope at this point.
So, let's hear it. What are the top 5 heavy metal albums of all time, In Your Honest Opinion?
Comments (106)
Fixed. It is now in the Lounge category instead of the Philosophy of Art category.
I don't know Earth Crisis, but I do listen to some heavy metal music and like a lot of crossover of genres. I have been listening to 'Black Sabbath: The Dio Years', also various albums by Anathema. It can be hard to choose top 5 albums, as there are just so many bands and albums.
I started listening to nu metal initially, including Slipknot's 'When All Hope is Gone', some Linkin Park. I really like Marilyn Manson's 'Mechanical Animals'. But I do also like some hardcore/punk, including Against Me. I like Metallica but don't play them too often because they are so dark.
Operation Mindcrime
Painkiller
Rust in Peace
Seventh Son
Dirt (Alice in Chains)
Mindcrime never gets the credit it deserves
There's a Thread that I started in this Forum about their philosophical and political ideas, and there's some Youtube videoclips of their songs that I've embedded into the comments, so if you're interested, that's a useful reference and resource. Basically, I'll tell you what they're all about: they are Vegan Straight Edge.
Quoting Jack Cummins
I started with Metallica. Awful band, probably the worst band in the history of metal. And I'm allowed to say that because they were the first metal band that I took seriously.
Quoting Jack Cummins
Slipknot's best album is Mate, Feed, Kill, Repeat. They're from Iowa, so it's understandable that they're essentially a group of Evil Clowns Banging on Trash Cans (Think of the movie Field of Dreams, for example. That's sort of what Slipknot are about, since they even have an album called "Iowa").
Linkin Park is cool.
Marilyn Manson gets a 2 out of 5 starts, as far as I'm concerned. He's just a watered-down version of Trent Reznor, IMHO. And his band is just a watered-down version of Trent's band, Nine Inch Nails.
Quoting Jack Cummins
Never heard of them. Must be a new band. I'll check them out later, thanks for the reference.
Damn, Queensrรฟche in the First Place? Brave move, I can respect that.
(hello BTW, really scary pseudonym you got there, honestly)
Judas Priest in second place, that's a bold move. (Or is it a "bald" move, since Rob is bald?)
Megadeth in third place, Ok. I can respect that.
By "Seventh Son" I imagine that you're referring to Iron Maiden's album "Seventh Son of a Seventh Son". Ok, I can respect that.
Alice in Chains is somewhat of an odd choice, but if I can get away with Earth Crisis as a metal band, you most certainly can get away with Alice in Chains as a metal band.
Quoting RogueAI
I think that Queensrรฟche in general don't get the credit that they deserve. But that's a problem within NWOBHM in general, Iron Maiden just eclipses everything in that scene. You know which one is my favorite from that genre? Angel Witch.
BOC 1972, 1973
Metallica's self-titled "Black Album" for First Place? Ok, I can respect that. You seem to be the kind of metalhead that likes to see just how far metal can actually go, if we just dump a ton of resources and energy into it. Or maybe I'm wrong.
"Master of Puppets" in second place, and "Ride the Lightning" in third place. And "Kill 'Em All" didn't make your list? Some odd choices right there. I see what you're getting at, but I would have listed "And Justice for All" in Second Place if that's where you wanna take that line of reasoning. Again, I could be wrong in my reading of you.
Blue รyster Cult in fourth and fifth place. Ok, I see what you're doing here, you're mirroring what I did with Earth Crisis and Sabbath. Ok, that's cool.
Damn. You know Death is actually a respectable band, in the grand sense of "respectable", despite what the naysayers say. My favorite song by them is "The Philosopher". Let's hear it:
Well, isn't that what heavy metal is all about? If you can define the key features, "the essence" of heavy metal, then we could judge the material as to how well it fulfills the criteria. You need to define "the feeling". If you just go on how it sounds, then we'll get all sorts of shape-shifting, genre-crossing posers, pretending, just to cash-in. You know, like the way the country guys do. Then we have sex-starved, cry-in-my-beer, crossed with a-ton-of-hate. What's your favourite "country-metal"?
Yes, unfortunately that's what it's all about. That, and cool guitar riffs. And long hair. That's basically it.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Hmmm... the "essence" of heavy metal? I don't think it has one. Some things have essences, but not necessarily all of them. I don't think that heavy metal has an essence. It just doesn't seem that way to me. But I could be mistaken, of course.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
I need to define "the feeling"? Of heavy metal? It feels heavy, and metallic. And somewhat pretentious, of course. And in very bad taste, if we compare it to, I don't know, jazz or whatever. But jazz is just as pretentious as heavy metal, if not more. So, there's that, I guess.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
I don't really use the term "poser". It reminds me of Heidegger's nonsensical difference between "authentic existence" and "impersonal existence" (what he calls "das Man"). It sounds like a fallacious rant to my ear. No True Scotsman, No True Dasein, No True Metalhead, yadda yadda. Heavy metal is just loud music for drunken assholes, there isn't really much "Trueness" to it. Like, if you're worried about "posers in the scene", then you kinda need to get an actual life, you know what I'm saying?
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
My favorite country metal? I like country, not sure about country metal. I like The Highwaymen, for example. Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, all of that stuff. I like the stuff that leans more on the Honky Tonk side, like Waylon Jennings for example, instead of the stuff that leans more on the pop side, like Dolly Parton. Outlaw country, I guess you could call it. I'm not sure what to think of the Dixie Chicks, I'm kinda on the fence there. The best country that I've heard in recent years Shannon McNally:
And here is Afroman's version of that song. Afroman's version is way better:
What about the "hate" though? Didn't you agree that this is what it is all about? And isn't this a feeling? Aren't the form of those cool guitar riffs, scales and effects, an expression of that hate? Don't you think it's possible to be a poser in relation to this feeling?
Quoting Arcane Sandwich
I was thinking along the lines of Eric Church maybe, or someone like that.
Anyway, the mention of "poser" has to do with the matter of "feeling". The feeling of hate, though amplified by the guitar riffs, is best expressed by the vocal quality. Any band can mimic the instrumental sound, but the feelings expressed by the vocal quality are difficult to imitate. That's why the whiney country voice doesn't quite cut it for heavy metal. Maybe Johnny Cash could've made it in the metal scene.
You seem to be under the impression that heavy metal has some Profound, Complex Theory of human emotions. It doesn't. It's just loud music for drunken assholes. There's not much to it in terms of conceptual sophistication. There's instrumental sophistication, sure, but that doesn't necessarily entail profound philosophical thought. I mean, not to throw Dragonforce under the bus here, but I'll definitely do it because they suck in a conceptual sense, even though they're great in an instrumental sense. Simpler: Heavy Metal sounds cool but it has poor lyrics.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Not my cup of tea, honestly. Like I said: it's Outlaw country for me, or classic Honky Tonk. Or someone classy, like Shannon McNally. I don't listen to garbage, for example I don't listen to Hank Williams Jr.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Not really. That's kinda what sets metal apart from other genres that derive from classical Rock n' Roll. It's the exact inverse case of Pink Floyd, for example. Pink Floyd has superb concepts and lyrics, but from a purely instrumental standpoint, they're not doing much, really. Whoever thinks that David Gilmour is a better guitarist that Yngwie Malmsteen is simply deluded. And whoever thinks that Malmsteen is a better lyricist than Gilmour is simply deluded. It is what it is. Rock in general has a rather hard time being excellent in both concepts and instrumentation, you generally have to specialize in one of them. If you specialize in concepts, your instrumentation will probably suck. If you specialize in instrumentation, your concepts will probably suck. There's very few bands that can do both.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Metal sucks as far as vocal quality goes. Pink Floyd is a million times better in that sense. But Pink Floyd sucks as far as the instrumentation goes. Gilmour looks like a clumsy beginner when you compare his guitar skills to Malmsteen's, for example.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Well, Pantera tried a sort of country-metal fusion, but it's just rednecks shouting stupid things. Anyone who likes Pantera probably likes Metallica as well, and I say that as someone who likes both of those stupid bands. They're stupid bands, let's be real about this. There's many more metal bands that are infinitely more talented than those clowns.
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
He did make it in the metal scene. Trent Reznor said that Cash's version of the song "Hurt" is the official version, even though Cash just did a cover of Reznor's song. If that's not making it in the metal scene, then I don't know what is.
BTW, here's a cool take on Slayer:
Which ones, in the metal genre, do you think succeed at both?
TOOL comes to mind, but also it could be a cheap trick because they never explain themselves really -- it's all esoterica that alludes to psychedelic experience and trauma
EDIT: Also, I've never heard that Afroman cover and love it.
I listen to trash, like Hank Williams Jr., but the racism of some country stars has always bothered me -- Hank, Hank Jr, David Allen Coe -- because I like the songs, but hear the lyrics.
Tool might be one of the closest examples, though I wouldn't compare their technical knowledge of the guitar (acustic, electro-acustic, and electric) to Malmsteen's. I mean, this is just a fact, like, there's no arguing here, it's not a "subjective thing", if you will. It's entirely objective, and yes, I know that my opinion on objectivity is a controversial one.
But the problem with Tool specifically is that they are in the "Toxic Virgin" quadrant of the Toxic-Healthy / Virgin-Chad chart. You'll have to see the following video if you want to know what I mean by that, I'm too lazy to explain it here:
Quoting Moliere
Dood. It's genius level stuff. The completely over-the-top distortion on that guitar. I was in stitches the first time I heard it, the sound of the guitar alone had me howling in laughter. And the lyrics are just insane. Afroman is legit, 100%. Did you listen to this one?
Quoting Moliere
It's awful. Corny Country, Cringe Country.
Quoting Moliere
Yeah well, there's something I gotta tell you about metal... (and about punk rock, and about rock and roll in general). EDIT: You know what? I'll just let Key & Peele tell you something about that:
:rofl: Yeahhh.....
To answer your question. It's a tough question, because most metal bands actually suck at instrumentation (believe it or not). I mean, in the jazz community for example, everyone is technically excellent, as far as instrumentation goes. In the metal community, you can be a shitty musician and still have a metal band. That's what it has in common with punk rock. But, yes, unlike punk, metal musicians "aspire to" some sort of perfection of their craft, or at least an acceptable level of technical proficiency, whereas punk rock just doesn't give a flying fuck about that (which I can genuinely respect, actually. It's the same attitude that early Grunge had, for example).
So, after careful consideration, and among many possible candidates for the band that is currently succeeding both conceptually and instrumentally, I would have to say that band is, currently, Alestorm. Why? Because they're fucking killing it, that's why.
Fuck True Norwegian Black Metal. This is True Scottish Pirate Metal, matey! :death:
As for the Bronze Medal, that one goes to Avatar:
Amazing. I didn't, but now have.
Quoting Arcane Sandwich
Certainly!
I like it for whatever reason... I think it speaks a fantasy that never was
I enjoyed the song. I enjoy them creating this idea of pirate music that's metal :D
***
I relate TOOL to jazz a lot because the band mimics a lot of what jazz has already done with respect to rhythm -- they change rhythms throughout as jazz does as a way of making the music and expressing it.
I think I just like any music which plays with rhythm. (I started your video but they were talking about a lot more than Toxic-Healthy / Virgin-Chad chart. -- on its face I could see TOOL as Toxic Virgin, but I don't know why that's bad.)
The actual story behind the song is even crazier:
Quoting National Public Radio
Quoting Moliere
I totally get it, believe me. But let's be real here, "A Country Boy Can Survive" is a dumb song. Maybe it was cool in like, I don't know the late 80's or early 90's. Today it just sounds corny. The Y2K version is better in that sense, independently of what side we take in the "Hank Williams Jr. VS Chad Brock" sort of debate:
Quoting Moliere
Dude, it's the only video (so far) that can't actually be played in The Philosophy Forum, you can only watch it on Youtube, and it's age-restricted. Like, you can probably embed actual fascist music in this Forum, but you can't embed Alestorm's song "Fucked With an Anchor". That's why they deserved the Gold Medal in Heavy Metal today, IMHO. They're so fucking over-the-top, it's insane. The whole "True Scottish Pirate Metal" thing is a sort of a half-joke directed at "True Norwegian Black Metal" bands. In other words, it's directed at "fucking wankers", in the wise words of the cultured folks from Scotland. In that sense, check out this killer song:
Quoting Moliere
Sure, I listen to Tool myself. It's a mediocre band, that's all I'm saying.
Quoting Moliere
The dude in the video pulls up the chart in like, during the middle part of the video or something, and he uses Tool as an example of a Toxic Virgin. Not so much Tool themselves, but rather their fans. Tool fans are toxic virgins. He also says that Mรถtley Crรผe and NOFX are toxic chads. "Boyfriend Country" would be Healthy Chads (think of the band Home Free, for example), Hatebreed would also be Healthy Chad, and in the Healthy Virgin quadrant he includes Paramore.
Anyways, yeah, Alestorm is fucking killing it. They're second to none (sorry Swashbuckle, it is what it is).
EDIT: Note to self, Alestorm are the Scottish Pink Floyd.
EDIT 2: Another note to self: Swashbuckle are the New Jersey version of Metallica.
EDIT 3: I intended the aformentioned Edits in an Anthropological sense. If someone feels offended by them, great.
Quoting Alestorm
And here's the song that they're talking about (kick-ass song BTW)
[
Coven is the best kept secret in the world of Heavy Metal, just as Los Saicos from Peru is the best kept secret in the world of Punk Rock.
Oh and speaking of well kept secrets this was in the dark recesses of the record collection back then:
The Number of the Beast - Iron Maiden (I know SOASS is commonly ranked higher, it is the many memories)
Don't Break the Oath - Merciful Fate
Rust in Peace - Megadeth
Master of Puppets - Metallica
Merciful Fate is wicked.
1. Tool - Lateralus;
2. Pain of Salvation - Remedy Lane;
3. Faith No More - Angel Dust (if it counts, if not, shift everything up one)
4. Soundgarden - Badmotorfinger (or Louder Than Love if BMF isn't 'metal' enough);
5. Fantomas - The Director's Cut
5b. any of: Master of Puppets, Sad Wings.., Paranoid,
Quoting Arcane Sandwich
You really wanna go down this type of road on a philosophy forum? Hehehe.
Same difference, I would say.
Source: I'm a philosopher, Trust Me Bro.
Faith No More and Fantomas, but no Mr. Bungle? What would Mike Patton say? : D
Quoting AmadeusD
Hey, hey! I'm a Tool Fan as well! Come on, man. Let's be real. The Tool fandom is toxic, and the mentality of the Tool fandom is a virgin mentality. Like, guys and gals that overthink things, they get in their own way, they're trapped in their own minds, yadda yadda. Like, let's just assume it, and get on with it. We listen to healthy music, in addition to Tool. Right? Country music can be classified as healthy music, right? And, we also listen to Chad mentality music. I mean, within reason, of course. I don't listen to Mรถtley Crรผe, for example, I don't listen to garbage. It's just musical garbage, there's no other way to describe it (other than "Toxic Chad"). As for Chad music, I like Hatebreed for example, and they're arguably Healthy Chad instead of Toxic Chad, right? Like, there's a positive message to their songs, they're uplifting (the technical term is "posi-violence", a portmanteau of "positive violence". It's like Positive Hardcore, sort of. Minus the violence, I guess).
But I mean, it's kinda like, Tool fans are sort of pretentious, right? And I for one don't like to just blurt out something like "What about Heavy Metal?" because that's just Whataboutism. Like, it's apples and oranges. Yes, metalheads are indeed pretentious, and yes, Tool fans are indeed pretentious. But not in the same way! Lol : D
LMAO - fair enough.
Quoting Arcane Sandwich
I guess I don't really see Bungle as metal beyond the Easter Bunny EP(both versions). Try not to shoot me :P
Ironically, my current favourite project of his is French pop music (though, his vocals and lyrics are on-brand lol).
Quoting Arcane Sandwich
Eh. I disagree. There's a coterie of mentally ill people in most fandoms. I think it's insular, and that gives an air of superiority but most Tool fans i've encountered aren't exemplary of these stereotypes... Then again, Maynard hates his fans so maybe you're right lol.
No, I'm super inclusive in that sense, I mean I started this thread by saying that Earth Crisis occupies the first three spots, I mean, it's a free-for-all at this stage of the game. Like, you could probably say something crazy like Michael Jackson is the best Heavy Metal artist, and I would probably believe you. I wouldn't agree with you, but it's like, you have the basic human right to have mistaken beliefs, just as much as anyone and everyone does.
Quoting AmadeusD
Oh man, I hate that stuff. I hate French pop. It's an abomination. Like, it's just too much. You have to draw the line somewhere, even if it's Mike Patton that we're talking about here.
Quoting AmadeusD
That's what I'm saying. Maynard is a "philosophical schizophrenic". He likes double meanings in songs. What is the song "Stinkfist" even talking about? Well, it has an obvious double meaning. And that double meaning is usually lost on the Tool fandom, it flies right over their heads, r/whoosh and all of that stupid stuff. That's why Maynard hates them. And you know what? He does have a point. A rather good point. So, by that point, I just stop listening to Tool, because if double meanings and Fibonacci sequences are all that I can get out of it, then, it's like, it's a mediocre band, objectively speaking. And if Maynard disagrees, then, well, go take a fucking anchor up your ass, know what I'm saying? Your band sucks, Primus already did what you guys are trying to do.
Phew...
Nothing personal though, all good, brah.
The album is called Corpse Flower if that helps :P
Quoting Arcane Sandwich
Fair enough - I cannot recognize anything in here. Those two bands are very, very different for example. THey do very different things, and ahve had wildly divergent lives.
What I get out of Tool is the music. I listen to Tool like any other band (though, they aren't my favourite by a long shot). I enjoy their music at a very, very high level (and as a drummer, I am bound to continually exalt Daniel Carrington).
Come on man. Mike Portnoy is a million times better than Daniel Carrington. If it's high level that you want, then we should all just listen to Dream Theater. And if that's the argument, then we should all just listen to Dragonforce. And Dragonforce is awful!
That's not the argument though - it was an additional reason I am a Tool enjoyer LOL. Nothing Portnoy has ever done sounds as good to me as any number of Carrington performances. That's another discussion, though, I'm sure (but i'm up for it lololol). According to Portnoy, Dance fo Eternity is his most technical piece and was written to be expressly that - it's not as technical as several Tool tracks.
Dragonforce really is awful. But their drummer isn't top tier either.
1) Heavy Metal is more technical than Rock and Roll.
2) Power Metal is the most technical subgenre in Heavy Metal.
3) So, let's make the most technical band in the Power Metal subgenre.
But it just leads to something that, when you look at it from a philosophical standpoint (as in, Aesthetics, or Philosophy of Art), it's just conceptually meaningless. I mean, what's the actual message of the band? What are the artists "trying to say" to their audience? What do they want to "express"?
And the answer is something along the following lines: "Look, we're just the best musicians on the Planet, that's a fact, take it or leave it."
And I'm not sure that I agree with such a philosophically loaded statement. Tool is better than Dragonforce, and that's a fact. Of course, the easy objection here to what I just said is that "Bro Maybe Tool Is Not A Metal Band".
And my reply to that would be: Fuck off. Earth Crisis is Heavy Metal, Amebix is Heavy Metal, so Tool is Heavy Metal.
So, back to the problem with Dragonforce. They're not the best musicians on the Planet. I don't buy that for a second. Well, maybe for a literal second I can somehow believe it, but no more than that. A classically trained professional Pianist, that plays at Madison Square Garden, is a million, trillion, zillionth times better Musician, better Performer, better Artist, better Human Being Simpliciter, than any of the members in Dragonforce.
I think the correct genre is 'Animals as Leaders' hehehe.
Not sure what the rant about Dragonforce is for haha. I said they were awful.
I think Dream Theater are the absolute epitome of tasteless wankery. And I still enjoy a handful of their tracks. So there you go lol.
Damn, that's a metal thing to say. Tasteless wankery? Dream Theater? Well that applies to all of Heavy Metal, now doesn't it? What is Black Sabbath if not tasteless wankery? If that's what you want to discuss, what's the alternative? Hippie music? Like, maybe in the 60's and the 70's that was cool, but if you were a teenager in the 80's or the 90's or the early 00's? Those decades have no representative hippie rock bands. There's heavy metal, there's hip hop (rap, specifically), there's hardcore punk rock, there's gothic rock, there's darkwave, there's Krautrock, there's noise rock, I mean the list just goes on and on. And I listen to a lot of that stuff myself, but and the end of the day I'm just a metalhead with a bit of hardcore punk, that's basically it. That's why we were all so stupid to buy into Metallica in the first place, and into Thrash Metal more generally.
So, back to Dream Theater. I can see what you're saying, but I don't know if they're the epitome of tasteless wankery. I think they're somewhere in the middle. I think that Dragonforce is the epitome of tasteless wankery. They're better musicians than Dream Theater, and they're a better Heavy Metal band. Power Metal is more metal than Progressive Metal. I'm telling you, Dragonforce has it all figured out, that's why one of their songs is in the Guitar Hero video game. Dragonforce was specifically braincrafted ("engineered") to be the Be-All, End-All Power Metal Band. Like, I'm sure that they literally believe that they are the best Heavy Metal musicians in the scene, if not the best musicians in pop music today.
And all I'm saying is that they're wrong. What they do, from a conceptual, lyrical, and instrumental standpoint, is the epitome of tasteless wankery tout court.
Feel free to disagree. See?
It even rhymes. It's a cool thing to say. And, I actually believe in it.
Quoting AmadeusD
People that listen to Heavy Metal have the best taste in the world of Rock and Roll in general.
Well now you are in my happy hunting ground - folk and folk rock. So i can correct you here; the best band ever was the Albion Band.
And in case you like hard core folk:ย I used to play some of these tunes on mandolin, a long time ago, in another part of the forest.
For myself I know that I like Type O for the many reasons people like bands -- found them in my teens and they spoke to me -- but I'm glad to see others getting a kick out of them.
Thinking of them as Toxic Chads vs. Tool as Toxic Virgins gives me a good feel for the Chad-Virgin spectrum.
They're both definitely toxic, at least :D -- part of their attraction is that they express toxic beliefs.
What I like about Type O Negative in particular is that they like double meanings, like Tool, but most of the time they're just making puns as a way of expressing self-denigration -- a lot of the times the puns are offensive and clever, much like "Cast that spell on me -- boo-bitch craft"
The interview captured a lot of what I like about Type O musically, tho. Peter Steele did legit sound and look like a sexy depressed vampire :D
Not only that, he also posed nude for PlayGirl Magazine. How is that not Chad? Gothic Metal is really just about sex at the end of the day. The vampire thing is an excuse to get laid. Can't say that I fault him. It's quite clever, actually.
Do you know this other band?
Lots of music is, tho I wonder if you'd say the same about
Quoting Arcane Sandwich
Nope! Tho by the sound of that song it sounds as if they're an influence -- the sultry deep voice links the bands, and the longing for a gothic girl links the songs.
Sex is a huge topic in Type O Negative, but sometimes its longing transforms into the masculine, even patriarchal, hatred of women who hurt them.
Kind of a gothic inverse of the Madonna-Whore distinction. They frequently go back and forth in their lyrics, if you listen to all of them (as I did in my teenage years ;) ) -- it's not hard to see that the Toxic Chad can quickly turn dark in a material way that the Toxic Virgins don't.
Nope, though I'd say that Bauhaus is Gothic Rock, not Gothic Metal : P
Bauhaus is actually one of my favorite gothic bands, together with Sisters of Mercy.
Quoting Moliere
Yeah, that's when they turn into Toxic Virgins. In other words, you're not much of Chad if women (or men!) "hurt your feelings", lol. I mean, if you're gonna get all whiny about it, then you don't have much self-esteem to begin with. And if you're gonna get all patriarchal about it, well, then you're not a real man, you know what I'm saying?
Quoting Moliere
Healthy Virgins don't turn dark in that material way either. I don't see Paramore fans promoting toxic masculinity or patriarchy. And they're virgins. It just so happens that they're healthy virgins instead of toxic virgins.
The real question, to my mind, is if Healthy Chads are promoting toxic masculinity. I don't think so. Consider the following song from Hatebreed, for example.
I could be wrong, though.
It could become a toxic masculinity, obviously, but the song is just about choosing to stand alone because of honor and not knowing what else there is. It sounds like they'd rather not stand alone; only noting that sometimes you have to do the man thing -- or are at least compelled to do the man thing -- and do the thing no one understands even tho you're alone because fuckit honor blah blah :D
There are outright fantasies of murder etc. in Type O Negative that are horrific, as well as a good deal of homophobia. It's definitely a product of its times.
I'd say that this is toxicity, at least.
I don't think the song you linked is toxic, tho.
Yup, that's why they're Toxic Chads instead of Healthy Chads.
Though we should probably keep in mind that "Virgin" and "Chad" aren't exactly precise scientific concepts. Like, no one in sociology uses these concepts as sociological variables. Same goes for "Toxic" and "Healthy". It's all just fun and games when we talk like this, using these words. But I don't think that any peer-reviewed journal worth its salt would or even should accept a paper that attempts to use these concepts in a serious, scientific way.
Yes I agree -- it's a typology invented in the moment, rather than something even close to any sort of academic exercise.
Heh I don't have your level of discrimination ;)
But I love both bands, and early goth rock, and their various influences.
I often think of goth music as expressing similar things to punk music, but only in another mode.
People say gothic-punk, but I think there might be a real philosophical aesthetic that connects them.
How would you categorize Kraftwerk?
Goth rock grew out of punk rock, just as power metal grew out of heavy metal. Goth rock is a subgenre within punk rock.
Quoting Moliere
It's Krautrock, IMHO, though that label doesn't really say much. Maybe "Experimental Music" is a more nuanced term. But it's just Krautrock at the end of the day, to my mind.
This thread is more metal based so I can see a distinction there now that I think about it. I was seeing the Kraftwerk to Goth line of flight, rather than thinking about the context of the thread, cuz Type O etc.
One of the reasons I tagged @unenlightened in this thread is the cover is from his era, but also they claimed to steal rifts from The Beatles, only played them backwards and with different tempos. So there's a line of flight from the 60's counter-culture to metal counter-culture, tho by a niche sub-genre.
I would say that both Coven and Sabbath sound more like Hippie Rock than what we usually think that metal sounds like. In that sense, I would say that Motรถrhead sounds more metal than both of those bands.
Well now the task for me is to connect Hippie rock to METAL :D
I already gave Type O Negative tho, so prolly not in this thread. Something to think about.
Black Sabbath is the connection there. They rejected the concepts of the Hippie movement/generation, while at the same time retaining some of its musical characteristics. They did try to push the envelope in that sense as well, of course, but at the end of the day Black Sabbath sounds more like Jefferson Airplane than Slayer or Mayhem, for example.
:D
All About Eve usually gets classified as goth rock. Without the stereotypes, of course.
She has that breathy sound that goth bands employ, but she's not doing it for affect -- she's a good singer who happens evoke that sound to me.
One of the more groovy (almost funky) tracks from Terrorizer:
In the 2000s I discovered Mr Bungle, Secret Chiefs 3, and others in that ecosystem, and was thus awoken to the interesting influences that metal was having in the new century (EDIT: I think of Mr Bungle as a 2000s band, just because that's when I discovered them), but I never again got interested in contemporary mainline heavy metal.
I do love this one by Secret Chiefs 3, for the sheer horror (although I believe it's actually being performed by one of their satellite bands):
Jazz is definitely more technical than metal. Way more technical. Perhaps Meshuggah can hang in there with jazz musicians, but other than that, there's not much. There's some metal that has jazz influences (like Cynic, or Atheist, for example) but there is nothing in metal that comes close to the technical complexity of John Coltrane's Giant Steps. There just isn't.
I like Art Tatum, Cecil Taylor and Django Reinhardt.
Quoting Jamal
I think that Heartwork by Carcass is the album that stood the test of time the best of those bands, which is an admittedly unpopular opinion. Morbid Angel sounds kinda corny, to be honest. Death is cool, especially because they deliberately avoided all of the stereotypical, low-hanging fruit (i.e, satanism, the devil, etc.). Sepultura is a hard case for me, but I'd say that Roots sort of stands the test of time (again, unpopular opinion, I know). Iron Maiden and Obituary get a "meh" from me. I respect them, but neither is my cup of metallic tea.
Quoting Jamal
Terrorizer is a band that I could never really get into. In the grindcore deparment, I like Brutal Truth.
And here are the lyrics to that.
(edited because apparently I can't write without making some mistakes)
It was watching that video that finally allowed me to appreciate Cecil Taylor.
Quoting Arcane Sandwich
Maybe so, but that's not the essential thing, and it's not why I moved away from metal and towards jazz.
What do you get out of jazz specifically, that you don't get out of metal? For me it's the technicality, but perhaps it's different in your case. What does jazz have that metal doesn't, that makes it more interesting or more pleasing to your ear?
It's multi-dimensional, humane, all-encompassing. It's the difference between great literature and formulaic genre fiction. It's warmer, yet harder, more intense yet more relaxed. It's a whole world, not just a petulant little part of it, like heavy metal is.
What do you mean when you say that it's more intense? Metal is musical barbarism, few things are harsher than it from a musical standpoint. I'd say that Experimental Noise (in the manner of Merzbow or Masonna, for example) is one of the few genres that gives metal a run for its money in that sense.
Fair enough. It's hard to elucidate exactly what I meant by "intense" and "hard", etc., but it sounds more penetratingly intense to my sensibility, particularly things like this:
I agree that metal and noise might be often more brutal, though.
Coltrane is far too abstract for my uneducated ear, that's why I gravitate more towards metal. Because there's abstraction in metal, but not to the degree of anything that's been done in the jazz world.
In sounding so abstract, I personally fail to understand how your ear can find jazz more intense and hard, because you're probably immersed in the world of jazz to a degree that I am not. I am merely a visitor in the jazz world, it would be very difficult for me to play along and keep up during a jazz improvisation. I mean, I can hang in there, but I would be hanging in there for dear life. I find it much easier to jam in the context of blues, rock n' roll, and heavy metal. I can probably join a session and more or less play along and improvise. Don't expect great quality, though. But, at least it's something that I can more or less tackle. Jazz just seems so impossible to my admittedly unskilled abilities as a musician.
You seem to be speaking from the point of view of a musician. When I first heard Coltrane, my ear was also uneducated, but it didnยt matter: it hit me on a gut level. I loved the way it sounded and how it felt. It didnยt sound abstract and it wasnยt something I had to learn how to like.
So I took up the saxophone and found out how hard it was to play like Coltrane. But from the point of view of the listener, itยs not about abstraction or technicality. Or rather, it need not be (I admit that abstraction and technicality can be attractive in themselves).
Another reason that a focus on technique and theory is not appropriate is that many of the greatest jazz musicians have not been virtuoso players, i.e., they played idiomatically and they were were not necessarily able to play in other styles. Ornette Coleman and Miles could only play the way they played, stylistically and technicallyยthey were a world away from the music school virtuosos like Branford Marsalis and Michael Brecker. And yet they were jazz giants.
As an amateur pianist, I can barely play jazz. Few people in the rock n' roll / heavy metal world can, I believe. I mean, imagine the saxophone in Coltrane's "Transition" as if it was a guitar. Who can actually play those notes like that? I don't think that there's any guitarist that can. You'd have to find a jazz guitarist, like Django Reinhardt, and I'm not entirely sure that Django himself could have played like Trane. Plus, I think that we also have to acknowledge that Trane was an incredibly sophisticated musical theoretician as well. For folks that don't know what we're talking about, here's how Wikipedia describes his work in "Giant Steps":
Quoting Wikipedia
And a bit later it says:
Quoting Wikipedia
I'd say that this song is impossible to play for 90% of musicians. The remaining 10% that can actually play it are jazz musicians, and not all of them, only the particularly skilled and knowledgeable ones. This composition is the pinnacle of what I call "abstraction" in jazz. It's a highly intellectual piece. And this is what I, personally, get out of jazz that I can't get out of other genres of music. Suffice to say that I don't have the capacity to play anything by Art Tatum or Cecil Taylor either.
Each to their own :cool:
That was the first one that popped to mind when reading @Jamal in describing jazz as harsh.
I'm not that knowledgable about genre, but "hippie rock"? This is just a random comment triggered by this paragraph, but I just had to remember that "Motorhead" (the song) was first a Hawkwind song. I've heard that Lemmie's sound with Hawkwind came from playing the bass as if it was a guitar. Not sure where, and not sure if it's true. You hear a lot of things. It's just that... if Hawkwind isn't "hippie rock", I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Out of curiosity, I've looked over a few top-lists online to see if I even know enough metal albums. Turns out, I know mostly the classics/progenitors (Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Blue Oyster Cult). I sort of feel like I can't make much of a contribution. If I like a metal album, it's probably not very metal - heh. (My favourite Black Sabbath album, for example, is Sabotage. That came up on maybe one list; it's mostly Paranoid, Black Sabbath or Master of Reality, and don't know the latter two).
It's an interesting thread to read. When I have the time, I'll listen through some tracks. (Thanks for Afroman; he's brilliant.)
It's just a convenient label that I made up, though I'm sure other people made it up before me. It's hard to be original. By "Hippe Rock" I just mean bands that sound like Jefferson Airplane, The Mamas and the Papas, Pentangle, etc. Perhaps Folk Rock or Psychedelic Rock might be more appropriate terms.
Quoting Dawnstorm
That's already a huge contribution. No one had mentioned Uriah Heep until yet, great band. Blue รyster Cult was mentioned but we didn't dwell too much on it, I don't know why. Awesome band.
Quoting Dawnstorm
All of them are decent albums. I'm not much of a Sabbath fan to be honest. Given the choice, I prefer other stuff in the world of metal.
Quoting Dawnstorm
Afroman is amazing, both as a comedian and as a musician.
Ah, gotcha. It's all fluid anyway. And I can't say I know Black Sabbath well enough to have much of a view on their sound. A lot would have come out of 60ies psychodelia. That Deep Purple Album that has April on it and that Hieronymus Bosch cover is deeply routed in it. Led Zeppelin is basically blues and folk with more guitars, at least early on. And so on. This makes genre very hard to gauge.
For example, some tracks on Bowies The Man Who Sold the World feel not that much "softer" than the genre stuff at the time (Try: Width of a Circle, Saviour Machine, She Shook me Cold). A lot of it feels like evolved blues.
It's interesting to see how things evolve, sometimes even on one record. Try Alice Cooper's Easy Action, where you get songs like "Shoe Salesman" along with "Still no Air" (which is closer to what he would become).
I also never felt that much of a difference between Born to Be Wild and Smoke on the Water, for example. I probably can hear them when listening for them, but they don't matter in my reception.
My favourite era in music would probably be around 1967 - 1973. A lot was going on, and little was settled.
Quoting Arcane Sandwich
Hm, the thing is Uriah Heep, to me, doesn't feel like an album-band. I don't have stand-out albums for them. I generally love a few songs on every album, and usually there are no bad songs (Gypsy, Bird of Prey, July Morning, Return to Fantasy...). Maybe it's just hard to choose an album, because of that? Or maybe it's just me who feels that way. Heep came up mostly with "The Magician's Birthday", which surprised me, to be honest. (It's an album I've heard but don't own; I've looked at the track list and can only remember Sweet Lorrain.)
With Blue Oyster Cult, I tend to gravitate towards albums: I like A Fire of Unknown Origin and Imaginos, for example. (There are plenty I don't know.)
Not at all. Admitting that one's desires are erotic and pleasure-chasing is all fine and dandy in the world of heavy metal. What's not fine and dandy in that world is admitting that you're a sellout. The lyrics are quite explicit in that sense:
This is the most blasphemous thing that a heavy metal musician can say. And, to add insult to injury (but true to their over-the-top antics), there's nothing metal about the attire that they purposely chose for the official music video. They're dressed like hooligans. In other words, they threw the entire Pirate Metal thing out the window for this song. Because this is what they're really all about: having fun, getting drunk, and making a lot of money. They don't give a shit about "the idea of metal", and they've made it quite clear that they don't give a shit about what their fans expect from them either. And that is far more metal (to my mind, at least) than all of the heavy metal bands that do give a shit.
Compare that song to (for example) Biohazard's song "Sellout"
Selling out isn't wrong per se. Having fun, getting drunk and making loads of money is fine. So is screaming half-naked "I'll never sell my soul" with a polluted bridge in the background. And, arguably, so is wanting to take the craft of musicianship to an unprecedented level.
The "technicality gap" mentioned by @Arcane Sandwich is evident. Ain't no metalheads playing this. They could play it note-for-note live:
Napalm Death is fucking awesome BTW.
Here's a song that talks about that: