When you love someone and give to them, should you expect something in return?
There aren't many philosophers exploring the ideas of love. At least, not as many as othe topics. As a beginner, I came across Erich Fromm. His book "The art of love" explores the idea and meaning behind love. I enjoyed this piece and agreed with it.
One of the main ideas of the book is that love is all about giving, not being. You don't fall in love, you are in love. He points out that it is not giving in the physical sense(gifts), but rather giving one's self - which means time, effort, care, attention. And an important caveat is that one should give, without expecting something in return. This sound right, and I agree with it. But it's not what my experience taught me. So I am confused about this claim. I want to believe it, but my mind doesn't want to.
So, here is the story as to why. I am young, very much so, 19yo. A little over two weeks ago my gf broke up with me. And of course, being the person I am, I started analysing as to why. Without getting into many details: I liked giving to her, as I should, without expecting anything back. But then, a couple of months in, I started to expect at least a thank you, which I got most of the times. But that's beside the point. The idea is that I was giving a lot, and not getting much back- it felt like 20/80, and I was doing the majority. I still liked giving, and wasn't thinking much if it. But over time I started to get frustrated that I don't get much back. So here is where the confusion is. Unconsciously, I started to get upset at her, and that lead to me not being able to enjoy our time together. I didn't feel like giving to her as much as I wanted. So thing ended up quickly - and I don't even look back that much. True love doesn't perish at all(if I'm not mistaken, it's again Fromm who said this), so it was not love.
To wrap this up, I invite you to a discussion, help me understand one thing: was I wrong in expecting something in return when loving someone, or I did the thing I was supposed to, but the other person wasn't for me?
It is my first OP, I would like any suggestions on making it better. Thanks!
One of the main ideas of the book is that love is all about giving, not being. You don't fall in love, you are in love. He points out that it is not giving in the physical sense(gifts), but rather giving one's self - which means time, effort, care, attention. And an important caveat is that one should give, without expecting something in return. This sound right, and I agree with it. But it's not what my experience taught me. So I am confused about this claim. I want to believe it, but my mind doesn't want to.
So, here is the story as to why. I am young, very much so, 19yo. A little over two weeks ago my gf broke up with me. And of course, being the person I am, I started analysing as to why. Without getting into many details: I liked giving to her, as I should, without expecting anything back. But then, a couple of months in, I started to expect at least a thank you, which I got most of the times. But that's beside the point. The idea is that I was giving a lot, and not getting much back- it felt like 20/80, and I was doing the majority. I still liked giving, and wasn't thinking much if it. But over time I started to get frustrated that I don't get much back. So here is where the confusion is. Unconsciously, I started to get upset at her, and that lead to me not being able to enjoy our time together. I didn't feel like giving to her as much as I wanted. So thing ended up quickly - and I don't even look back that much. True love doesn't perish at all(if I'm not mistaken, it's again Fromm who said this), so it was not love.
To wrap this up, I invite you to a discussion, help me understand one thing: was I wrong in expecting something in return when loving someone, or I did the thing I was supposed to, but the other person wasn't for me?
It is my first OP, I would like any suggestions on making it better. Thanks!
Comments (9)
Great question, and your debacle is unfortunately quite common.
I think you are talking about a relationship or a romantic friendship, not simply love. Friendship always involves mutuality: friends love each other. So if one person loves and expresses their love, and the recipient does not reciprocate, loving in return, then there is no real relationship or friendship (and instead there is a relation between benefactor and beneficiary). That is, friendship requires a measure of equality, including equality of effort and interest. It doesn't have to be completely equal, but if it is completely unequal then it cannot be sustained as a friendship (including a romantic friendship).
That's the foundation, but things can go wrong in many ways. Maybe she was no longer interested in you. Maybe she was being selfish and will regret her behavior. Maybe you were being overbearing and were creating more pressure than the relationship could be asked to bear. Maybe something happened to her that she chose to keep secret, and yet which made a mutual relationship with you impossible. There are many things that could have happened, but relationships cannot survive without mutuality.
Does this mean that love in a romantic context is conditional? I wouldn't phrase it that way, but it is not unconditional. A romantic relationship is a symbiotic growing together. That merging of selves is not based on conditions or contracts, but it does necessarily involve mutuality.
(Cf. Nicomachean Ethics, Books 8 and 9)
Hey - hang in there. You seem to know what love is and its worth all the heartache it brings.
You arent wrong. You wanted a girlfriend, to share with, which is normal and involves real life, practical give and take. You wanted mutual love with someone who wanted mutual love with you together. Nothing wrong about wanting that or letting the relationship end if it wasnt going to happen.
But on a more analytical level, you are right about love in itself - it has no expectations. When you love a baby or a child, you just love them - they can do and be and say anything and the parents love remains.
Love is beholding, not an actual holding in hand.
Love seeks to consume the loved one to unify with them, without ever touching or changing them in any way. Love wants one thing, and receives maybe not what it wants, but much more instead.
These things are irrational, unspeakable, and so cannot be formulated into an expectation.
Love is a blessing. A pure gift. Something to thank ones lucky stars for. Not something we can plan or construct all by ourselves and set out to accomplish.
The giving love of a parent to an infant is unconditional - at the moment. But as the child grows, parents do begin to expect reciprocation, obedience, an acceptance of their values, achievement - all sorts of things, whether they're aware of it or not - from their child. And if what they expect is not forthcoming, they are disappointed, sometimes angry. Perhaps they don't love their child less, but their love does change in some way.
The offer of love to a potential sexual/life partner is quite different. We may deny it, but we always expect something back. We hope for a return of love in kind, but will sometimes settle for affection and devotion less than what we offer. Very few romantic relationships (or, indeed friendships) are perfectly equal.
It is possible to give too much - either to give what is not asked or required, or to give the wrong thing at the wrong time. This indicates that the giver is more interested in his or her own love than in the object of that love. Giving can also overwhelm the recipient: they may feel grateful, but also obligated, if they are unable to give as much or as freely as the other person. They may feel that the giving person is trying to make them dependent, is impinging on their on their autonomy.
It is important to find the balance in a relationship - the right pace, the right amount of give and take, the right amount of togetherness and personal space. Very young people often rush into love, heedless and self-absorbed. Mutual love cannot survive that: it has to be approached with care.
Welcome to the forum.
The Lounge is where posts not really related to philosophy or science belong. Lounge posts don't show up on the front page. I think this thread belongs there. Also, a warning, the forum is a bad place to look for advice on personal issues. Many members are socially tone deaf.
[quote=Benny Spinoza]Love is Joy, accompanied by the idea of ??an external cause ... [and] ... All happiness or unhappiness solely depends upon the quality of the object to which we are attached by love.[/quote]
I fell in and out of love when I was nineteen. I gave my love all I had to give at that age and yet, after several months, it wasn't enough to keep her. Why? Because she needed love from a man and I was like almost all nineteen year old males still a boy in a man's body. IME, most women (at all ages) need desire men and not boys.
When does 'a boy become a man' in the context of romantic love (eros)?
As a generalization, IMO, at the stage of experiential development (usually mid-twenties to mid-thirties) once a boy learns how to avoid 'falling for' (in order to protect his life from) selfish¹ women of any age; in this regard, absent 'paternal' guidance, a gauntlet of heartbreaks and rejections usually does the trick.
How does you recognize a selfish woman before you fall for her into that 'love trap'? :confused:
While getting acquainted or dating, pay close attention to both how she behaves around others, especially her girlfriends, and, without asking more than once, what she doesn't tell you about herself; being money-fixated, entitled/bossy, never mistaken/wrong, always a victim/blame-shifting, gaping holes/inconsistencies in her upbringing & romantic history, etc are also tells of a selfish¹ woman (ergo maybe a 'lover' :yum: , but evidently a bad risk for romantic love :hearts:)
Anyway, philosophers and psychologists opine about "love" in theory² but practice "romance" in a concrete social-cultural context is much more insightful. (Fwiw, my insights (scars) I'd acquired from 'loving' (mostly) middle class women in the Northeast US while in and out of university and bartending, etc during the 1980s.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selfishness [1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love [2]
[quote=Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary]Love, n. A temporary insanity curable by marriage or by removal of the patient from the influences under which he/she incurred the disorder.[/quote]
:smirk:
Welcome to TPF!
:up:
:fire:
Taking is not a part of unconditional giving. All that matters is where your caring went, not if it wasn't well received.
So first become a gardener, and learn to love nature, and when you love shit because it feeds your plants, you can love another human.