2025: 50th anniversary of Franco's death...

Quoting javi2541997

Did you ever care about the death of Franco and then the born of democracy here?

Please forgive me for this. It’s from 1975.



Franco was not well liked here in the US.

As for Spain, like all good Americans, I don’t pay much attention to Europe. Spain has always struck me as a more rigid repressive society than other places in Europe. I think that’s partly because of its history of Islamic culture and partly because of Franco and Spanish Civil War. And then there is the Spanish inquisition, which none of us expect.

People I know who’ve been to Spain loved it. The food is great, lots of interesting history, and beautiful cities, especially Barcelona. Over the last decade or so we’ve heard quite a bit about the troubles Spain has had as a member of the EU. That probably colors my attitude also. We also hear about how Spain is thought of as a cheap vacation spot. It is not given much respect in Europe.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Interesting and I feel the vibe of the song. Also, I guess you thought in bulls when Spain crossed to your mind, but I could be misunderstood!

Quoting T Clark

Spain has always struck me as a more rigid repressive society than other places in Europe. I think that’s partly because of its history of Islamic culture and partly because of Franco and Spanish Civil War. And then there is the Spanish inquisition, which none of us expect.

Don't worry, I didn't expect positive comments towards my country when I started this thread, but I thought it was worth starting it anyway.

My point was to see if you had negative prejudices towards my country. Sadly, I was right about what I thought. I asked if modern Spain could be considered a democracy, and you didn't address that question but only posted bad and stereotypical comments. 

Quoting javi2541997

to see if you had negative prejudices towards my country.

I acknowledge they are prejudices. I thought you wanted me to be honest and I tried to be without making myself look good.

Reply to T Clark You criticize me for having the Inquisition and 'Islamic culture' in my history, yet you find it acceptable to have nuked Japan twice. Americans are very hard to understand...

Quoting javi2541997

You criticize me for having the Inquisition and 'Islamic culture' in my history, yet you find it acceptable to have nuked Japan twice. Americans are very hard to understand...

I have had and will continue to say plenty of negative things about the US. And for what it's worth, Japan had about 2 million deaths in World War 2. China had 20 million at the hands of the Japanese.

I did not intend to offend you.

Reply to T Clark Fair enough. I understand what you meant, so don't worry. I'm just a bit disappointed because, after reading many of your posts, I thought you were more open-minded on certain issues. That's all. I don't want to offend you either.

Quoting javi2541997

Also, I guess you thought in bulls when Spain crossed to your mind, but I could be misunderstood!

Actually no, I did not think of bulls, lol. I suppose that my "unconscious" betrayed me there, as a psychoanalyst would say. Luckily I don't believe in pseudoscience, so there's nothing to worry about there.

Quoting javi2541997

Don't worry, I didn't expect positive comments towards my country when I started this thread, but I thought it was worth starting it anyway.

My point was to see if you had negative prejudices towards my country. Sadly, I was right about what I thought. I asked if modern Spain could be considered a democracy, and you didn't address that question but only posted bad and stereotypical comments.

Javi, you have to understand that España is an already complicated concept even for speakers of the Spanish language such as myself. Contrary to what happens when one studies other topics, the concept of Spain gets even more complicated when one begins to study the history of your country. Like, just think about the "Spanishness Day" (Día de la Hispanidad) that we were talking about the other day. Imagine if in the United States and in Australia, people celebrated "Englishness Day" (Día de la Anglicidad). For the vast majority of them, it makes no sense to them as a concept. In fact, it makes even less sense for people from Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. Try going to a pub in Dublin and telling people that everyone should celebrate the "Englishness Day". You're going to get beat up, it is what it is. But with "Spanishness" (Hispanidad) it's different, because Spanishness is a cohesive element in the Spanish country. What elements need to be cohesive, under that concept? Provincial identities, that's what: the Castilians, the Aragonese, the Catalans, the Andalucíans, the Basques, etc., all of these are like mini-countries inside a larger country. They're not separate islands, like in the British Isles, they're instead provinces right next to each other, forming a single, large territory called "España" (from the old Hispania of Roman times). And we haven't even got to the part about Christianity and Catholicism yet. Or the part about what the Spanish language is capable of, for example in the immortal works of Cervantes, Jovellanos, Unamuno and Ortega y Gasset, just to name a few. We haven't even gotten to the topic of Isabel la Católica, or Fernando VII, or la Orden de Carlos III. We haven't even gotten to the topic of Visigoths vs Moors, or the Civil War between "Las Dos Españas". And you want to jump straight to Franco and how Spain is doing today in relation to the European Union, lol. Like, no one will understand what you're really trying to talk about here, Javi. I can follow you up to a certain point, as a friend, but this topic (the concept of Spain, and how well it's doing in reality) is extremely complicated for everyone, and that includes yourself, as you already know.

EDIT: A good place to start for non-Spanish people is the Ser de España wiki.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich A very intelligent and well-written answer. I’m sorry—it’s true that discussing Franco is very difficult (and, I admit, even uninteresting). Honestly, I expected you to provide insightful responses, and I was right. I remember when we talked in the Hispanidad thread. It was a fruitful discussion.

I give up—Hispanic matters are not something Anglos seem to care about. They will never make an effort to understand us. I think it would have been more effective to address this topic in your thread about Hispanidad.

From the wiki on the Being of Spain:

Quoting Wikipedia

El ser de España o problema de España es el nombre que suele designar un debate intelectual acerca de la identidad nacional española que surge con el regeneracionismo a finales del siglo XIX, y coincidiendo con la aparición de los nacionalismos periféricos. Confluye con el tópico de las dos Españas, imagen muy descriptiva de la división violenta y el enfrentamiento fratricida como característica de la historia contemporánea de España.

El objeto del debate no fue propiamente político o jurídico-constitucional —la definición de España como nación en sentido jurídico, tema que fue debatido en el proceso constituyente de 1978, donde se enfrentaron posturas de negación, matización y afirmación de la Nación española—; ni tampoco propiamente historiográfico —estudiar la construcción de la identidad nacional española, que se hizo históricamente como consecuencia de la prolongada existencia en el tiempo de las instituciones del Antiguo Régimen y, a veces, a pesar de ellas—. Lo que aquellos pensadores pretendían era dilucidar la preexistencia de un carácter nacional o ser de España, es decir: cuáles son «las esencias» de «lo español», y sobre todo, por qué es algo problemático en sí mismo o no lo es, frente al aparente mayor consenso nacional de otras naciones «más exitosas» en su definición, como la francesa o la alemana, planteando la posibilidad de que España sea o no una excepción histórica. Todo lo cual dio origen a un famoso debate ensayístico, literario e historiográfico que se prolongó por décadas y no ha terminado en la actualidad, con planteamientos y puntos de vista muy diferentes.

En muchas ocasiones, el propio debate ha sido objeto de crítica en sí mismo. Por un lado, por lo que supone de introspección negativa y, por otro, por la previa condición de buscar un esencialismo, es decir, una perspectiva filosófica en cuanto es una reflexión sobre la esencia, cuando lo propio de una perspectiva histórica sería el cambio en el tiempo, pues las naciones no son entes inmutables, sino construcciones de los humanos a lo largo del tiempo, incluso restringidas a la historia más contemporánea en lo que respecta a los modernos conceptos de nación y nacionalismo.

Using Google Translate:

Quoting Wikipedia (translated with Google Translate)

The being of Spain or the problem of Spain is the name that usually designates? an intellectual debate about Spanish national identity that arises with regenerationism at the end of the 19th century, and coinciding with the appearance of peripheral nationalisms. It converges with the topic of the two Spains, a very descriptive image of the violent division and fratricidal confrontation as a characteristic of the contemporary history of Spain.

The object of the debate was not strictly political or legal-constitutional—the definition of Spain as a nation in the legal sense, an issue that was debated in the constituent process of 1978, where positions of denial, qualification and affirmation of the Spanish Nation were confronted—; nor properly historiographical—studying the construction of the Spanish national identity, which was made historically as a consequence of the prolonged existence over time of the institutions of the Old Regime and, sometimes, despite them. What those thinkers intended was to elucidate the pre-existence of a national character or being of Spain, that is to say: what are "the essences" of "what is Spanish", and above all, why it is something problematic in itself or not, in the face of the apparent greater national consensus of other "more successful" nations in its definition, such as the French or the German, raising the possibility that Spain may or may not be a historical exception. All of which gave rise to a famous essayistic, literary and historiographic debate that lasted for decades and has not ended today, with very different approaches and points of view.

On many occasions, the debate itself has been the subject of criticism in itself. On the one hand, because of what it implies of negative introspection and, on the other, because of the prior condition of seeking an essentialism, that is, a philosophical perspective insofar as it is a reflection on the essence, when what is typical of a historical perspective would be change. in time, since nations are not immutable entities, but constructions of humans over time, even restricted to the most contemporary history with regard to modern concepts of nation and nationalism.

EDIT: I added some more text to the quotes.

Quoting javi2541997

I give up—Hispanic matters are not something Anglos seem to care about. They will never make an effort to understand us. I think it would have been more effective to address this topic in your thread about Hispanidad.

They're just struggling to understand what's going on in purely conceptual terms, so I try to point them to a few useful references. But it's not just a problem for anglosaxons or speakers of the English language, it's a problem for non-Spanish (and even Spanish!) people in general.

And even if we somehow completely sidestep the philosophical and political topic of the Being of Spain, if we talk about Franco, we also have to talk about his circumstances (As Ortega y Gasset famously said: "I am myself and my circumstances."). And those circumstances are none other than the Spanish Civil War. The closest that people from the USA have here, in conceptual terms, is their own Civil war, but these two civil wars occurred in different centuries, so it's not like they can fully understand what's going on in the Spanish case. I don't quite understand it myself, to be honest, since there was no civil war in the 20th century in Argentina. We had a civil war in the 19th century instead, just like the people from the United States of America.

So, you see, Javi, there's things that even I, a Spanish speaker, cannot understand about your country, Spain. And even if we start to speak Spanish now instead of English, the problem persists, because it's not a linguistic problem, it's a conceptual problem. More specifically, it's a philosophical problem.

In that sense, there is no one in Argentine politics that I can compare to Francisco Franco. The closest could be, perhaps, Juan Domingo Perón, but again, they have different circumstances. Franco was in the middle of a civil war, Person wasn't. So, there are important differences there, in terms of their "essences" or whatever word you want to use (note: some philosophers get very angry if you use the word "essence").

However, the problem here is that English-speaking people have no politician of their own that they can compare to Perón. There is no historical figure in US politics that has the characteristics that Perón had. Personally, I think the closest one would be President Dwight D. Eisenhower, because in his last speech, he went publicly against the military-industrial complex (he had done so in private, for many years, but he decided to make it public as well).

I saw the following video on Peronism yesterday, and I think that English speakers will find it useful for this conversation, because they might have an easier time understanding Perón than understanding Franco:



And a song:

Quoting javi2541997

Well, if you read this, I would like to ask you:

Did you really notice an improvement in us?

Did you ever care about the death of Franco and then the born of democracy here?

Well, I am not Spanish speaking (basic level), not am I geographically close to Spain, but I am European and from a European perspective Spanish history is important, and bound up with its history, both personal and political. We have no idea about the 'being of Spain'. We do however very well know the importance of Spain in Europe and as I am born in 1975, we also know about the death of Franco and cared a great deal. I was just born than but many households rejoiced. Franco was the main European enemy of the leftist Europeans which were numerous in the mid-seventies.

In fact, I owe my existence to the demise of Franco, well his imminent demise. for a period in 1974 Franco abdicated as head of state due to illness and Juan Carlos took over. It was then that my parents thought it was alright to visit Spain again. They hadn't for many years due to their opposition to Franco as nearly all of the Dutch and certainly the more left leaning kind. It was during that holiday, during which they saw old friends and travelled through Spain, that I was conceived.

That holiday too my parents toasted with their Spanish friends to formally end any grievances about the '80 years war'. Just like I was conceived in Spain, the Netherlands was conceived breaking away from the Spanish empire, seceding formally in in 1581 with the Act of Abjuration and establishing the Dutch Republic. War tore through the country until 1648 when Spain recognized Dutch independence in de Westphalian peace.

You see the Dutch did expect the Spanish Inquisition, it expected more, the 'blood council' and the 'council of troubles', all religious and colonial Spanish courts. For us the Spanish inquisition was nothing to laugh at, but we learned in school is was a zealously catholic force that tried to break the spirit of protestantism. Ohh no, it was not the remnants of Islamic culture in Spain that we feared, it was the catholic fanaticism of Phillips the second. We had a motto in those days: "Rather Turkish that Papal!", it was clear where our sympathies laid and it helped that the Ottoman Sultan rather generously supported the Dutch rebellion.

The days of the Spanish fury are long gone and Spain became a beloved country for Dutch holiday makers. It was affordable and warm, cheerful and relaxed. The memory of 'vacation' will in my mind be tied to the memory of Spain because my parents went as well. Franco was dead and the paradores were open and wanted tourists and we went just like many of the Dutch. the first few words in a foreign language I learned were in Spanish: 'Un fanta por favor'. When I was four parents decided that if I wanted something I could ask for it myself and so I did. Sure, I was a small yellow blond little boy with small round glasses. not only did I get a fanta I also got a caress from the waiter or waitress who brought it. Still in my mind no people are as nice to children as the Spanish are. Yes, now still the country is flooded by my countrymen, but perhaps a different kind. Many a youngster has experienced her or his first holiday on the Spanish beaches, his first love affair, first time and first heart break.

Yes, the young now might not care about Franco, but I knew his name when I was a child and especially later when I became interested in history. You see, after the 80 years war and before Spain the holiday destination there was Spain as the first battleground against fascism. "No paseran!" was the cry of the Spanish Republicans and of the many Dutch leftist volunteers who joined the international brigades. Those were deemed heroes and when my father wrote a book with interviews with people who were young in the 1930s one of the questions was whether they went to join the Spanish civil war and if not, why not. Guernica and the unfair fight, those were the stories we were told when we talked about Spain.

Spain, yes, I understand your slightly ... melancholic post Javi. Is Spain taken seriously in the EU? Well, yes, but of course far gone are the times when Europe was drowning in the silver from Potosi, the place my lover is from. It is the curse of all imperial nations to decline and reminisce about the past. It is no France, no Germany in terms of influence. I guess in the EU its practical influence is comparable to that of the Netherlands, its old enemy. It is not as revered for its culture as Italy. Its wines rank below those of France. Its philosophical importance was once great actually, but they do not remember the Arab and Jewish philosophers from Spain's golden century. Yet still, Spain is a magical country in Europe. Owing in fact to its mix of cultures. Catholic Spain with its imperial splendid right next to the no less splendid Islamic Alhambra. The profane beaches with their endless line up of hotels next to the wonderful libraries and literature of Spain.

Yes, and those few words of Spanish I learned? They won my ex wife over when I proclaimed much to the surprise of the rest of the room that Spanish was a far more beautiful language than Italian. I sung a Spanish song for her and that sealed the deal. She is Turkish by the way... To old enemies and alliances my friends. Spain though, will always rank among my most favorite countries.

Ay Carmela, ay Carmela....

Reply to javi2541997 Hey, Javi, things could be much worse than you think they are!

Spain is the world's 15th largest economy by nominal GDP and the sixth-largest in Europe. Spain is a member of the European Union and the eurozone, as well as the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development and the World Trade Organization. In 2023, Spain was the 18th-largest exporter in the world.

Every country has disreputable episodes in its history, bar none. Might as well blame it on those wicked Visigoths!

I very much doubt that it's a good idea to commemorate / celebrate / or ruminate over Franco's existence. Maybe you all should dig him up and burn him at the stake in order to get closure.

Quoting javi2541997

This makes me sad: The average income in 1975 Spain was €15K, and now €31K. I don't see a big improvement. We are a country of low wages, as always

A doubling of the average income over 50 years isn't terribly good, unless you compare it to the growth in wages between, say, 500 a.d. and 1400 a.d. when wages didn't grow at all. But working people in many countries have suffered from slowly rising income over the last 50 years. So welcome to our oppression by capitalist scum!

Quoting javi2541997

They will never make an effort to understand us.

They will never understand us, friend, even though they have made many efforts, and will keep on making them. They will never understand people like you and me, Javi : )

And that's fine. There are many people in this world that I will never understand. Perhaps I will never understand you, perhaps I will never even understand myself. That's why I philosophize. And until philosophy can settle any debate, in any capacity, there's just poetry. Until then, people like you and me will have eternal treasures of Music and Literature, that will never be stolen, because their Truth shines, such as the following example:



But there is hope, Javi. I have hope. Identity does not stop at the national level. There is such a thing as continental identity, I believe. And there is such a thing as human identity, above that. The following video expresses my political sentiments in a better way than I could ever hope to achieve:

Quoting javi2541997

I give up

Anglos aren't saying much in this discussion mainly, I think, because they feel they don't know enough. @T Clark was brave enough to raise his head above the parapet, perhaps thinking he could learn something, but you just shot him down.

That said, I have no idea why Spain strikes him as more repressive than other parts of Europe, and what he thinks the Islamic history has to do with that.

One thing in the OP that might be misleading for Anglos is your mention of the commemorations, which they might incorrectly imagine are some kind of celebration of Franco. In my experience, most Brits and Americans have no idea what the attitude is to Franco within Spain. Introducing that topic would be useful.

Reply to Tobias Hello Tobias! You can't imagine how happy your post made me feel. It was a good start this morning, Sunday.

There is a lot to talk about, but I appreciate an important thing: you actually visited my country with your parents in that period of time, so you experienced how Spain was in the first years after Franco's death. Therefore, your opinion and points are objective and well taken. Also, I like how you talk very fondly about your summertime. It could be a topic for a short story! :cool:

My point in this thread was exactly what you summarised in your post. I wanted to know if we had an improvement here, because it is very difficult to talk about Franco here, as you could imagine. It is still a taboo topic. I believe Spain has changed a lot over the past 50 years, but the incumbent government uses a florid message. We are still a country with low wages, and there are issues regarding our democracy. We are not perfect. But I wanted to know if we could sit at the same table as other nations like the Netherlands or France. After reading your post, I think yes, we can.

I didn't want to be nostalgic in my post, I promise. Every Spaniard knows perfectly the situation of our country, and we know that we don't have influence worldwide. For example, we tried to recognise Palestine as a state nation, and nobody cared, etc. But none of us want to be like Germany or France. We know we are particular, and we are happy with that. Yet a large number of us think that we are the "shithole" of Europe. For example: I was in Bratislava once, and a person asked me, "Where are you from?" And then I replied, "I am from Spain!" And she wondered if I was really able to keep a conversation in English because we are very poor regarding English skills and educational matters. You can't imagine how this hurts our pride...

We always compare ourselves to North European nations and wonder why we are not like you. But this is a utopia. It is impossible because our idiosyncrasies are different.

I think 2017 was crucial for modern Spain. I am talking about our crisis regarding Catalonia. I was in the university in that period of time and most of us thought that the rest of EU members would rant on us. We also carry the prejudice of being a repressive nation, you know. But I was surprised that EU members respected our sovereignty and decided that it was better to solve the issue in our own way. 8 years later is no longer a problem, and blood has not been shed. I think this was a good example that we are a European-respected nation, with our pros and cons absolutely. I wish we could fix our low wages and unemployment ratio one day.

Quoting BC

A doubling of the average income over 50 years isn't terribly good, unless you compare it to the growth in wages between, say, 500 a.d. and 1400 a.d. when wages didn't grow at all. But working people in many countries have suffered from slowly rising income over the last 50 years. So welcome to our oppression by capitalist scum!

I agree! Good point, BC. But, seriously talking, we are a country of very low wages. I tried to find out why. I guess the problem of having low incomes is due to our economy depending on low-quality products. Thus, services.
We are a country of holiday resorts, not of luxury cars or modern technology...I raged because the incumbent government shows it as a big improvement. Seriously? Wow, at least they don't talk about the unemployment rate. This is what hurts me the most.

Quoting Jamal

That said, I have no idea why Spain strikes him as more repressive than other parts of Europe, and what he thinks the Islamic history has to do with that.

I have no idea either. I "shot him down" because of the amount of prejudices his post had. Something that I never expected from T Clark.

Reply to Jamal I want to summarise it briefly: Franco is still a part of Spanish consciousness. It was a dictator that was in office for 39 years, and we can't get rid of that from the night to the morning. He kidnapped our identity, and after his death, Spain has not been capable of building a real identity: Are we European? Are we a democracy? Are we poor or rich? Are we illiterate?

If you check the government website, it says that everything under Franco was bad and we were backwards. But now everything is good, and we are important to EU members at least. But I was sceptical regarding that. When I travelled around the EU, I didn't experience discrimination, but it is true that I felt people had a negative notion of our economy, development, people's rights, etc.

People even labelled as a "PIGS" country (Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain) like the bad zone of Europe.

We are not perfect, and I am aware that we are still far from Germany or the UK. But what was the improvement for the past fifty years then?

Since it is barely possible to get an objective answer in my country, I thought it was a good idea to start a thread here, since I am aware that some of you even lived here. So your opinion also counts, even more than some journalists and media here...I think that the point is that every Spaniard has in mind that due to having Franco for almost three decades, we lost opportunities for being a European nation. But we joined the club in 1986. So, we have been Europeans the same time that we have been under Franco.

How we handled the situation in Catalunya? Etc.If you didn't care a bit, I completely respect it and understand your position, Jamal. But I don't get why folks expect us to be like that because we had "Islamic culture" and the Inquisition. Basically, it seems like nobody can expect an improvement here.

Reply to javi2541997

I completely understand your reaction. I just think that Clarky is open-minded enough to revise his prejudices, in this case.

Thank you for explaining some more about Franco's legacy. I must admit that when I was living in Spain I avoided the subject completely, for fear of saying the wrong thing, so I didn't learn anything about it while I was there. I did make interesting, somewhat related discoveries, such as the fact that Denia was a shelter for a few German Nazis after the war. I put that in my micro-fiction "Moriscos" story a couple of years ago, along with the expulsion of the Moriscos. But these things stood out to me because I generally had an entirely positive conception of Spain, and I am certainly not aligned with the view of Northern European capitalists and bureaucrats—if there is a division there I'm generally on the side of Spain (and Greece).

Reply to Jamal :up:

I think you did the right thing by avoiding the subject completely. If only we were not a divided nation, I guess you could have had some interesting conversations about Franco. Yet this is impossible, and I label two different types of Spaniards in this topic: the ones who try to avoid talking about politics (I include myself here) and the ones whose vision is the only one that is right.

Although it has been fifty years, Franco's typical aspects are still in the mindset. For example, my grandparents still calculate everything using pesetas instead of euros (it seems that the EU never happened to them, but Franco remains...), and people have a negative view of police officers and the army since these were always pro-Franco.

But I feel that everything changed quickly. Whoever said in 1975 that Spain would be one of the first countries to recognise same-sex marriage, for example? But, at the same time, I feel that negative historical features still kick in the perspective of foreign people who observe my nation on the other side of the pond.

On the other hand, thank you for having my country in a positive perspective. Yes, I remember the short story of Moriscos. I posted a picture trying to guess if it was plotted in Denia or a closer town. It was fun!

Quoting javi2541997

I think it would be interesting to read opinions by folks from other countries, because these tend to be more objective than what our government might be...

From the 1960's on until 1990, my grandmother went to Spain every year for three months for her winter holiday. Not sure what she thought about Franco but she didn't like police. She loved the architecture, the people, the food, the language, the weather. She once met Orson Welles in a cafe.

Australians often travel to Spain. They seem to go because it's a cool place to see and the food is great. Tourism is a pretty shallow - it's opportunities to take photos and eat.

In the 1970's my mum and dad sometimes talked about the transition to democracy and hoped that Spain would make the journey from Franco to freedom. I would have thought the reforms and advancements were worth it. But if you are suspicious of government and consider your democracy to be flawed and shameful, then you would be like every second young person in any Western country on earth who is convinced their country's government is shit and that no one tells the truth.

Quoting Tom Storm

From the 1960's on until 1990, my grandmother went to Spain every year for three months for her winter holiday.

Wow! She was so brave for spending three months in the 1960s and even 1970s, considering that we were clearly an undeveloped nation. I imagine she had to struggle with different challenges; language in the first place, for instance. I appreciate how your grandmother always decided to come back during three decades. I guess she told interesting anecdotes. Furthermore, your grandmother was an important witness of the first years of Spain's development.

Quoting Tom Storm

In the 1970's my mum and dad sometimes talked about the transition to democracy and hoped that Spain would make the journey from Franco to freedom. I would have thought the reforms and advancements were worth it.

Glad to know! That's what I wanted to read. Some testimonials by people who remember that actually their family talked about the death of Franco and then the birth of democracy. Thanks for sharing your personal experience, Tom. :up:

Quoting Tom Storm

But if you are suspicious of government and consider your democracy to be flawed and shameful, then you would be like every second young person in any Western country on earth who is convinced their country's government is shit and that no one tells the truth.

True. I agree.

Quoting Jamal

That said, I have no idea why Spain strikes him as more repressive than other parts of Europe, and what he thinks the Islamic history has to do with that.

This has come up before in different contexts. I try to be honest and self-aware about my prejudices, of which there are many. When I put those attitudes into words, people often take that to mean I endorse that position. I've acknowledged that my attitude is prejudiced. That means I recognize it's not rational. I do my best not to let those attitudes affect my behavior. Generally, I think I can do that pretty well. In this case, I picked the wrong time to speak, which is not that unusual here on the forum or in my life.

Reply to T Clark

Nah, I think Javi overreacted.

Reply to javi2541997 Spain does have a tourist industry, which means service employees, and sadly they don't get paid a lot. Spain also produces quite a lot of agricultural products--essential to everyone who likes to eat, but the big money is in processing and marketing food, not in growing it. BTW, I have a bottle of Spanish olive oil in the kitchen. So...

Spain also produces ceramics and flamingo dresses. Why do flamingos even need dresses? Spain also harvests cork. Cork used to be used in very nice flooring and walls; now it mostly gets stuffed into bottles.

In 2021, Spain produced roughly 3.8 billion euros worth of mineral products. Spain is an important producer of copper, tungsten, fluorspar, magnesite, and bentonite, among others. In 2021, it ranked as the fourth leading country worldwide in tungsten reserves, and the seventh in fluorspar and magnesite production.

My advice: keep digging.

Unfortunately, mining is not all that popular with the populace: dust, big holes, noise, toxic waste, etc. Minnesota has lots of big holes and piles of mining waste. It can be a problem. Miners do tend to get paid well, but machinery has long since taken the place of masses of men with picks and shovels.

Has Spain considered more manufacturing? There's a big demand these days for military drones, for instance. They are profitable and the killer drones have a short life, so lots of replacement orders--€€€!

North Korea recently got into the mercenary business, sending soldiers to help the poor Russians out in Ukraine. Maybe your guys would like to do that?--not for the Russians, of course. Canada, Greenland, and Panama will be needing soldiers to defend their territories from the acquisitive Trump administration. Stop by the Denmark embassy and ask what their plans to defend Greenland are.

Quoting BC

Spain does have a tourist industry, which means service employees, and sadly they don't get paid a lot.

Exactly, good point.

Quoting BC

Spain also produces quite a lot of agricultural products--essential to everyone who likes to eat, but the big money is in processing and marketing food, not in growing it. BTW, I have a bottle of Spanish olive oil in the kitchen. So...

Agricultural products are usually our ace in the hole. We know we are the only country in Europe with the weather standards to sell fruits and olives to all European countries all year. It is important, but again, agriculture is not a high-value market either. I do not know how many tonnes of oranges or cabbages we should import to match with German cars or Italian luxury markets. I see it as barely impossible.

Quoting BC

Spain also produces ceramics and flamingo dresses.

When I travelled through different countries, I remember that some locals had objects done with Spanish ceramic, like vessels. I see ceramics deserve more potential, but I understand that other products (like marble) are more popular or valued in international markets.

Quoting BC

My advice: keep digging.

I guess ecologists would not be happy with that, and also the incumbent government has 'green' politicians, so the idea of mining is not available for the moment.

Quoting BC

Has Spain considered more manufacturing? There's a big demand these days for military drones, for instance.

Pedro Sanchez wanted to build a factory of microchips in Madrid. His aim was to be the "Taiwan of the European Union," but the project was gone when it faced reality for two reasons:

1) We are also a country with a high number of low-skilled workers. Who would manufacture those microchips?

2) Prices. People would always manufacture everything in China and their surroundings. It is cheaper, and the workers do not cry for help and trade union assistance.

Quoting javi2541997

I guess ecologists would not be happy with that

This is true everywhere. Metal is indispensable--not just for our advanced civilization, such as it is, but civilization at all. Somehow the ecologists and extreme greens suppose that we can maintain civilization without more copper, iron, nickel, zinc, tin, etc. and elements like Lithium · Beryllium · Rubidium · Strontium · Cesium · Barium, uranium · phosphorus · potassium, etc. For instance, computer, TV, and smart phone screens and mini-speakers require elements like yttrium and neodymium. They have to be dug up and refined--all messy processes. Are the anti-mining folk ready to do without their big, bright, screens? Go back to landlines, green computer screens, and black and white TVs (which used a lot of lead)? Probably not.

Mining can be done better and it can be done worse. Generally we can extract and refine metals without wrecking the environment -- it just costs more to be neat and clean.

Quoting javi2541997

Pedro Sanchez wanted to build a factory of microchips in Madrid.

There have been various schemes to build big high-tech factories in the industrial midwest of this country. Some have succeeded, many never saw the light of day. It's just damn hard to compete with cheap labor of the sort that Asia has in abundance. (Not that your average Asian likes being cheap labor on behalf of Foxconn, Apple, et al.). Same for Mexico: Lots of cheap labor, which Mexicans would likely prefer to not be.

Quoting BC

Are the anti-mining folk ready to do without their big, bright, screens? Go back to landlines, green computer screens, and black and white TVs (which used a lot of lead)? Probably not.

Mining can be done better and it can be done worse. Generally we can extract and refine metals without wrecking the environment -- it just costs more to be neat and clean.

I would say that much (though not all) of the criticism in that sense is born out of the following sentiment (I'm just hitting below the belt at this point, but what is poetry useful for, if not for that?)

Quoting javi2541997

1) We are also a country with a high number of low-skilled workers. Who would manufacture those microchips?

Rural people in Asia weren't born knowing how to manufacture microchips. A lot of the labor on the factory floor isn't immensely complicated. Very high-tech machines do a lot of the work. Spain could buy he high tech machines from the Netherlands, just up the coast a ways, who have a lock on the premier fabrication technology (so I have read).

Reply to Arcane Sandwich I really am glad you are familiar with labor songs such as this and that you posted it. But Panopticon's recording sucks! What screwy method was used in the recording studio?

I first heard this song on a Folkways record in 1972.

Here's a performance by the song's author -- Sarah Ogan Gunning. Her voice is not pretty, but it's authentic. Harlan County, Kentucky was where a lot of underground mining was done -- very hard on the workers. Now coal is mostly extracted in open pits -- easier on the workers, far worse for the land (unless the mining companies restore the land -- which tends to reduce their profit margins).



Come all you coal miners wherever you may be
And listen to a story that I'll relate to thee
My name is nothing extra, but the truth to you I'll tell
I am a coal miner's wife, I'm sure l wish you well.
l was born in old Kentucky, in a coal camp born and bred,
I know all about the pinto beans, bulldog gravy and cornbread,
And I know how the coal miners work and slave in the coal mines every day
For a dollar in the company store, for that is all they pay.
Coal mining is the most dangerous work in our land today
With plenty of dirty. slaving work, and very little pay.
Coal miner, won't you wake up, and open your eyes and see
What the dirty capitalist system is doing to you and me.
They take your very life blood, they take our children's lives
They take fathers away from children, and husbands away from wives.
Oh miner, won't you organize wherever you may be
And make this a land of freedom for workers like you and me.
Dear miner, they will slave you 'til you can't work no more
And what'll you get for your living but a dollar in a company store
A tumbled-down shack to live in, snow and rain pours in the top.
You have to pay the company rent, your dying never stops.
I am a coal miner's wife, I'm sure l wish you well.
Let's sink this capitalist system in the darkest pits of hell.

Reply to BC Read 'em and weep.

Though, if you think about it, @BC, Home Free are just a "boy band" at the end of the day.

Here's what a real, civically and socially responsible adult actually listens to:

Reply to Arcane Sandwich IN order not to totally derail Javi's castigation of Spain's decrepit economy, here's a lefty American folk song which is applicable to agriculture in Spain (where the rain may or may not stay mainly on the plain resulting in greater or smaller yields):

Reply to Arcane Sandwich Boyband or the Highwaymen (country super group), I liked listening to them both.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

And until philosophy can settle any debate, in any capacity, there's just poetry. Until then, people like you and me will have eternal treasures of Music and Literature, that will never be stolen, because their Truth shines, such as the following example:

The reason why "Gallo Rojo, Gallo Negro" (Red Rooster, Black Rooster) is such a heart-wrenching song to listen to is because it directly relates the topic of the "Being of Spain" with the Spanish Civil War, in such a way that the conflict itself becomes meaningless from a semantic point of view, and only senseless violence remains. Because it's a song about "Las Dos Españas" (The Two Spains). What do I mean by that? The following.

The Red Rooster is the Socialist, or Communist, or Left Winger more generally. The Black Rooster is the Fascist, the Nationalist, the Right Winger. But as the two Roosters fight each other, they realize that they're both birds of the same species. So, do they lay down their arms, and hug each other in peace and fraternal love?

Of course not. You see, the Black Rooster was actually a Royalist, he wasn't interested in defending fascists or nationalists, he simply wanted what was best for the Spanish Crown. In that sense, the Red rooster isn't the communist, he's the Republican, so the "Left vs Right" fight sort of "degenerates" into the previous conflict, Royalism vs Republicanism (if you can't possibly comprehend how a republican can be a left-winger, just think of the Irish Republican Army).

Ah, but it was all just smoke and mirrors, because while these two roosters were fighting to the death, it just so happened that we had it all wrong: the Black Rooster was actually an anarchist, a freethinker, a libertarian, someone who just wanted to be left alone, a follower of Bakunin, you could say. And the Red Rooster was actually an oppressive, Marxist defender of the state and all of its bureaucracy, a Stalinist, no better than Hitler.

Oh, but the Red Rooster wasn't actually any Marxist, he was a Trotskyst, so he was against bureaucracy, what senseless things the Red Rooster says.

At the end of the day, the Red Rooster was just a proletarian. Whatever sins he may have committed, the fact of the matter is that he was poor. But the Black Rooster was a lumpen-proletariat, so he was even poorer, which is why he's fighting the Red Rooster in the first place, there's not enough food to go around, and, being an individualist instead of a collectivist, the Black Rooster just wants to survive.

But, as the last part of the lyrics say:

[i]"I warn you, Black rooster,
A red Rooster doesn't surrender
Until he's dead."[/i]

The moral of the story here is that in the end, the ideas themselves didn't matter. They were simply two people that were forced to kill each other for no reason. This very fact is what constitutes the fratricidal character of the Being of Spain. The Spanish essence (Hispanidad) is defined in part by this fratricidal confrontation. It's not exactly what Plato or Aristotle would have called an "essence":

Quoting Wikipedia (translated with Google Translate)

The being of Spain or the problem of Spain is the name that usually designates? an intellectual debate about Spanish national identity that arises with regenerationism at the end of the 19th century, and coinciding with the appearance of peripheral nationalisms. It converges with the topic of the two Spains, a very descriptive image of the violent division and fratricidal confrontation as a characteristic of the contemporary history of Spain.

EDIT:

In that sense, the conflict or problem hasn't ended, even today. It doesn't matter that Franco died 50 years ago. Franco doesn't even matter to begin with because this fratricidal confrontation is part of the Spanish essence (Hispanidad). Here's a song about this very problem, but from a punk rock point of view:

Quoting BC

Spain could buy he high tech machines from the Netherlands, just up the coast a ways, who have a lock on the premier fabrication technology (so I have read).

Do you know what the main product we buy from our Dutch friends is? -- tractors. They are all over the rural areas, and each farmer has at least two.

Yet that's another good example of how we are dependent upon other countries' machines...

Quoting BC

It's just damn hard to compete with cheap labor of the sort that Asia has in abundance. (Not that your average Asian likes being cheap labor on behalf of Foxconn, Apple, et al.).

That was not only a big failure of Spain but the European Union altogether. Our politicians decided back in the 1990s and early 2000s that it was better to manufacture everything in random Chinese villages, with zero labour rights. Important Spanish companies like INDITEX (Zara) have their manufacturers there and in Bangladesh. This caused a heated debate in Congress like two years ago, blaming Amancio Ortega for being a modern slaver. As you say, it is barely possible to compete with those prices and wages, and most companies would prefer to go there. They only care about benefits, not investment. The worst thing is that the average income in Spain is around €1,130, and I consider it low... So, we are a cheap labour land but in a European context.

Quoting javi2541997

Our politicians decided back in the 1990s and early 2000s that it was better to manufacture everything in random Chinese villages, with zero labour rights.

Not just in Spain -- the same damned neoliberal policy was pursued in the US, beginning with New England manufacturing moving to cheaper southern states, and then to the Caribbean and Mexico, and finally Asia. Quite a few European countries off-shored manufacturing. It's been a long time since England made its own shirts.

Quoting javi2541997

INDITEX (Zara) have their manufacturers there

Luxury Italian goods are often made in China. Still luxury, but Italian and European workers are dealt out of the game. It's a rare shoe that's made in the US. New Balance is one company where SOME of their shoes are made in the US; Allen Edmonds makes quality shoes in Port Washington, Wisconsin -- I have bought their shoes; they last a long time.



ONE of the reasons Henry Ford paid his workers $5 an hour (back in 1914--doubling their wages) was so that they could afford to buy Ford's cars. Plus, they would be more loyal; work harder, etc. There are a lot of workers who can not afford to buy the goods and services they produce.

Reply to javi2541997 And now a ski lift has collapsed in Northern Spain. Hey, wait: Don't blame Spain. It might very well be the fault of the French or the Germans.

Quoting BC

moving to cheaper southern states, and then to the Caribbean and Mexico, and finally Asia.

Oddly, those are the countries where child labour is a reality, and they were condemned multiple times by useless organisations (UN) for not respecting children's rights, such as education. We had the same issue in both Europe and the USA back in the 19th century. A lot of people (infants included) had to die to change the circumstances for the better. We consider that a developed nation has their children learning in schools and playing freely with friends, not allocated in a steel factory manufacturing screws. Yet this is how the hypocrisy of our politicians pops up again. We don't want a child from Madrid or Minneapolis to work in factories, but we go to nations where they don't care about crossing those lines: Mexico, India, Bangladesh, Vietnam, and (sadly) a large etc.

Quoting BC

There are a lot of workers who can not afford to buy the goods and services they produce.

Yeah. I would not say "the land for the one who works on it" because I know everything is more complex than just that. But it is a problem how a large number of workers don't earn enough to purchase not only the goods and services they produce but others. I mean, there are works that, even with an income they are still considered poor.

Quoting BC

And now a ski lift has collapsed in Northern Spain. Hey, wait: Don't blame Spain. It might very well be the fault of the French or the Germans.

:rofl:

Quoting BC

And now a ski lift has collapsed in Northern Spain. Hey, wait: Don't blame Spain. It might very well be the fault of the French or the Germans.

I don't know. What I know is what you're probably getting at there, if I were to read between the lines. But no, the Spanish essence (Hispanidad) is an extremely dark, depressing subject matter to think about. Because, at the end of the day, after hours and hours of mutual accusations and rebuttals from the Spanish Left Winger -versus- the Spanish Right Winger, both of them arrive at the same exact conclusion, which they say to each other:

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta?

And once that's said, the dialogue is over, and the actual physical fight starts. If no one steps in to stop it, it will end in death. That might seem senseless to your mind. Well, you wouldn't be wrong. It is indeed senseless. It's just senseless violence.

But that's what "being Spanish" is all about. The Spanish Essence Day (Día de la Hispanidad) is national holiday in many South American countries, including Argentina. It's also a national holiday in Mexico, and in some countries from Central America as well.

It's just pure fratricide at the end of the day, at the level of identity politics, if that makes any sense. There's no other way to describe it.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta?

Now imagine a Castilian saying this to a Catalan. Imagine a Catalan saying this to a Basque. Imagine a Basque saying this to an Andalucian. Imagine an Andalucian saying this to an Aragonese. Repeat until more than half of the population dies. If half of the population hasn't died by now, keep repeating it until it happens.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta?

And now imagine that a white Mexican says this to a mestizo Mexican during Spanishness Day (Día de la Hispanidad). Do you see how grim this whole thing is? It's brutal.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta?

Finally, imagine a "white" Castilian (as in, someone with beige skin, black hair, and black eyes) say this to a "white" Andalucian (as in, someone with beige skin, black hair, black eyes). What do you think is gonna happen? They'll try to kill each other, it is what it is. Visigoths vs Moors, that's what this particular instance of the conflict boils down to. Unless, of course, you wanna make it about Christianity vs Islam, or Europe vs Africa. Or, "Westerner" vs "Easterner". It just makes no sense if it can be all of that at the same time. Hence, the technical term here is fratricide. There's just no other way (to my mind) to describe it.

EDIT: And, obviously, the conflict doesn't end there, either. Imagine a Spaniard (like Javi, for example) saying this:

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta?

to an Argentine like me. It's like, we're going to try to kill each other. Good thing that we're on an Internet Forum, because if Javi or another Spaniard says that to me in the same physical room, then, it's like, you're not leaving this room alive, mate. Nah just kidding, I would never kill Javi (unless there are circumstances in which I find it Ethical to do so). Otherwise, if he says that to me, I'll just say the same thing back, only with a slight Rioplatense variation:

"¿Qué os pasa, Peninsular hijo de puta?"

And that sort of mentality is what the Spanish-born Patriots had when they fought the Argentine War of Independence against the Spanish Empire. You see, it's an endless conflict, and it's idiotic, it doesn't make sense. So, at the end of the day, instead of saying an insult like that, I would say to someone like Javi: Here's a song that I like that talks about that, and I like the song, because I would rather listen to a song with you, than try to kill you, if I have the choice.



Quoting Almafuerte

[i]Con adorno del buen escolazo
En tus manos

dejo Flor de Espadas

Para que tengas

Sepa el boncha que la va de liso:
Yo soy dueño de la mano brava

Dioses del abismo
Guardarán mi marca

Para sí
O para aquel
Como vos
Y como nosotros tres

Que viajando
En el sonido

Lo soñamos ayer
Y lo cumplimos hoy

Con adorno de buen escolazo
En tus manos dejo flor de espadas

Dioses del abismo
Guardarán mi marca

Para sí
O para aquel
Como vos

Y como nosotros tres

Que viajando
En el sonido

Lo soñamos ayer
Y lo cumplimos hoy[/i]

Quoting javi2541997

That was not only a big failure of Spain but the European Union altogether. Our politicians decided back in the 1990s and early 2000s that it was better to manufacture everything in random Chinese villages, with zero labour rights.

Yes, this neoliberal approach was as common In Australia as it was in Spain. We used to make clothing, tools, cars, whitegoods, toys, furniture. All now imported from various Asian countries where labour is cheap and easily subdued.

Reply to Arcane Sandwich After reading your posts, I can't come to the conclusion about what is more senseless to you: either being Spanish or hispanidad, which are different things. If your point is that our civil war and our continuous confrontation are senseless, then I agree. But I don't know to what extent it is related to the decolonising of South America. I think the senseless hysteria came afterwards.

On the other hand, you would be surprised seeing that we have a low self-esteem. So, I hardly believe that some would confront you for being anti-español. I think that rhetoric only applies among Spaniards. We will not burn everything down for the sake of our country.

Quoting javi2541997

I hardly believe that some would confront you for being anti-español.

It doesn't start like that, but that's how it ends. It starts as a general "Left vs Right" thing, then the conversation progressively degenerates until someone dares to accuse the other of being anti-Spanish, and at that point it just turns into a fist fight, unless someone steps in and stops the discussion before it ends in a fight.

EDIT: Even if another Argentine tells me something like "¿Qué te pasa, anti-español pelotudo?", we're no longer talking about politics, like, you're telling me that you're willing to physically fight me, just to impose your mistaken beliefs on me. And I'm not gonna have that. I'm not going to ignore what you just said in that situation, and I'm not going to de-escalate the situation either. We're far past that point if you, as an Argentine, say that to me in person, to my face. Like, if you say it on the Internet, on a Web Forum for example, I don't care.

Reply to javi2541997 Reply to Arcane Sandwich As Kant said, "Nothing straight was ever built with the crooked timber of mankind."

Reply to BC Yeah, but Kant wasn't a poet. He doesn't speak to me. He doesn't stir my irrational emotions like a populist politician does. Kant is like an Alien in that sense. There's no poetry to his words, it's just literal prose. And I'm a literalist myself, but Kantian prose is just Legalese. I prefer Ontologese myself as far as made-up languages go.

Kant would have been really good at Esperanto, for example. I'm sure that he would have been passionate about it (to the extent that an Alien like Kant can be passionate about anything).

Politics is a game of passions, friend. It's not a game of thrones, nor is it a game of money. There's no strategy to it, and there are no tactics to it. It's not warfare, unless you militarize it.

Quoting javi2541997

We always compare ourselves to North European nations and wonder why we are not like you. But this is a utopia. It is impossible because our idiosyncrasies are different.

Spain is its own country with historical ebbs and flows. It has wonderful traditions, style and climate. Year around sun and broad stretches of flatland must be good for solar power... I am no economist, but tides will turn.

Anyway, I will always be fond of Spain, the Spanish language, its way of life. Just enjoy and do not fret much about something rather artificial as a 'country'.

Quoting Arcane Sandwich

Kant would have been really good at Esperanto

Does Esperanto have categorically imperative verbs?

Quoting BC

Does Esperanto have categorically imperative verbs?

I've no idea, I don't speak it myself. I understand the concept, but I never cared to learn it. It was really fashionable in the Vienna Circle, among the Logical Positivists. Carnap was passionate about it, he said that he was deeply moved when he heard a work of art in that language (I can't remember if it was a poem, or a theatrical piece, or what).