The Dark Wood Where There Is No Error

Count Timothy von Icarus January 20, 2025 at 21:48 100 views 10 comments
Inspired by current discussions on essence in the Quine thread (translated from my original Latin terza rima into blank verse of course)

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Midway upon the journey of our life
I found myself within a city dark,
For the straightforward pathway had been lost.

Ah me! how hard a thing it is to say
What was this city savage, rough, and stern,
For even then I was losing my grasp on all quiddities!

The buildings around me dissolved first,
Becoming mere shapes, then but blankish blurs
Like the gray paint splotches of an impressionist canvass.

Next the cars and street signs shed their very whatness.
Then even the trees and rats. So too,
That great bridge whose arches I presently crossed under.

And last the people, first becoming swinging masses
Of arms, head, and legs. Then so many lumps of flesh,
Until each of nine million was made up of its own millions.

Below the East seemed not so much a river,
As so many individual droplets, mixing in a frenetic
Haze, their boundaries boiling in a burning blur.

And lo! Across the East a beam from Heaven alit a park—
Full of trees, and children, clear and distinct!
To Brooklyn must my legs carry me thither.

Yet upon that great beam planned under the Emancipator,
Confronted me three foul beasts, savage and rapine—
Although I cannot say just what they were.

(All quiddities fled, my noema but flux and flow).
Fearing them I turned back to Gotham.
Perhaps a man attempted to speak to me just then,

Or perhaps it was merely a shade—another blotch.
All I could hear was sounds, ‘Sub Julio…’
Or some such nonsense.

Into the Earth went I, desperately descending downwards.
My hope I did not for one second abandon,
Though I could no longer read the great sign above.

Once atrain I caught a glimpse of a maiden—so clear!
It was like a thunderclap in my mind. Bold ousia!
I dids’t not hold back the words that flooded frothing forth:

“Please, I beg thee, come near that I might grasp thine quiddity
I smiled, joyful in illumination, but her face fell.
I heard something then, not so clear as that angelic face.

“Tommy, this guy just said he was going to grab my ‘quiddity!’”
Her nose wrinkled on the last word in disgust.
And then a great dark shape resolved from behind her.

“Ah,” I exclaimed, “your quiddity is strength!
This I shall grasp!” And as I stretched out my mind,
So too my hands in shaking supplication.

“Ain’t no dude touching me and my girl’s quiddity
Ya pervert.” Then the blow struck me in the gut—
I collapsing as the angel called out “creep!”

I swooned then and I know not how long I slept.
Awakening I found no thing around me, but
Furiously frenetic frothing, an oozing of oozes,

(One step above prima materia). Yet still,
I glimpsed another through this mire,
One in the shape of a young girl.

And others too, began to resolve around me,
Though none so much as her. (“Sophia,” I think,
Some ooze called her.) “Please,” I implored to all sides

“I need ousia, quiddity, I’ve had none since
I crossed that fell land where two towers once fell,
Dissolving downwards into fiery multiplicity.”

“Hey rumpot,” a voice whirled me about,
“Do you not know where you are?”
And I to her: “no, please tell me.”

“This is the Upper East Side y’stewbum.
Ain’t no one selling drugs around these parts.
Get yer ‘quiddity’ and ‘ousia’ somewhere else.

Decent folk live here. Folk with important jobs.
I was content to let you sleep it off before,
But if you’re going to harass them, you need to

Head downtown, to Lexington, and take
The N or Q to Coney. That’s where we let
The bums sleep in peace.

But lay off the sauce bud. Or whatever
This ousia stuff is. It’s no good for you.”
And with that, I jumped with joy!

And would have kissed that angel, had she not
Gripped tightly her nightstick and pepper spray.
“A coney!” I shouted for joy. “Yes!

A coney, a rabbit, a gavagai. To that,
Island then I shall go at once.”
“Lay off the sauce” she repeated again,

Although to this day I cannot be sure
What she was referring to here.
And so it was that I came to have a quest,

An aim towards which I moved,
As all things do (though nothing around me
Seemed to be such a thing anymore.)

For I had heard it said of old,
That if a man loseth his grasp on life,
On things, and aims, and principles,

Nevertheless he might still prevail, if he
Should meet with the celestial entities who
Dwell upon that fair isle.

The Lingua Civitatis who might restore
To one such as I, the loss of all things,
And from inchoate shifting sands construct

An entire world upon which to walk.

---

I suppose that in the spirit of Dante I shall include some commentary on my own work. The first two tercets are from Longfellow's text of the Inferno, with just a word replaced, before the sudden shift.

In the first Canto, Dante faces three beasts representing the three major types of sin into which hell is divided, a leopard (sins of fraud, involving the intellect), a lion (sins of violence), and a she-wolf (sins of incontinence). I cannot recognize them because I have lost my damned quiddities! Of course, one of the fears of any moral realist when it comes to social construction theories is that they will make it impossible to locate moral realities, since the distinction between the words of moral discourse, and associated behaviors, will collapse with the things referred to.

"Sub Julio" is among Virgil's first words to Dante, but I don't recognize my guide as a man, nor recognize his words, and brush past him because I lost all my quiddities (alas!).

I descend into the Earth like Dante. I pass a "great sign" but do not "abandon all hope (ye who enter here)" because I can't read the darn thing (misplaced quiddities and all).

My disastrous interactions reflect the problems of invoking the ol' quiddity and ousia in foreign contexts.

Prima materia is "prime matter," which is nothingness, sheer indeterminate potency, the chora.

Sophia is the Greek for wisdom. If I had it to do over, I might choose something about St. Lucy (illumination), and not recognizing her eyes (which were famously gouged out).

One cannot "lay off the sauce" if the whole world is dissolving into a mere sauce of indeterminate multiplicity.

"Although to this day I cannot be sure what she was referring to here," on the view that words have no reference.

I'll leave the rest a mystery.




Comments (10)

Gnomon January 20, 2025 at 22:53 #962424
Awesome ! :blush:
I'm serious.
Don't leave it a mystery. Publish it. And a sequel or two. After all, Dante journeyed for over thirty cantos. :smile:

"This vivid new transmutation of Dante's immortal classic, Inferno, opens a new vista and offers a fresh experience of this milestone in human literary genius."
https://angelicopress.com/products/the-divine-comedy-inferno

Borrowed laudations. But seriously, what were you on? :joke:
Tom Storm January 20, 2025 at 23:36 #962443
Quoting Gnomon
Dante journeyed for over thirty cantos.


I got through 9 of them recently (translation: Steve Ellis) but lost interest. I'd love to have the patience for more.
PoeticUniverse January 21, 2025 at 00:21 #962459
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
I'll leave the rest a mystery.


Great poem!
Arcane Sandwich January 21, 2025 at 00:56 #962469
Reply to Count Timothy von Icarus Wow, you wrote that poem? Well that just proves my point: no AI can make a poem of that poetic quality. It just can't. What the Count wrote there has a conceptual complexity so elevated just in purely computational terms, that no computer today has the computing power to replicate it. Because you would have to replicate the human brain in order to be able to write what the Count just wrote there.

That's not to say that anyone can effectively write with that level of quality. You have to become writer in order to be able to do that, you actually have to write. Not just "I'mma write this like I write letters of correspondence to my Tax Lawyer". Poetic quality is an important quality just in purely mathematical terms. No Large-Language Model (LLM) can replicate that. Not yet, at least.
Leontiskos January 21, 2025 at 01:07 #962471
Reply to Count Timothy von Icarus

Loved it. :lol:

But I thought Sophie would be more welcoming!
Arcane Sandwich January 21, 2025 at 01:36 #962477
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Midway upon the journey of our life
I found myself within a city dark,
For the straightforward pathway had been lost.


The crooked path, is what follows from the last line here.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Ah me! how hard a thing it is to say
What was this city savage, rough, and stern,
For even then I was losing my grasp on all quiddities!


In the middle of the second verse, the words "city" and "savage" have switched their ordinary places. We ordinarily say "savage city", not "city savage". A city savage is almost a contradiction in terms, a contradictio in adjecto, as the Medievals called it. An "Oxymoron", if you will, thought they're not technically the same thing. But close enough.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
The buildings around me dissolved first,
Becoming mere shapes, then but blankish blurs
Like the gray paint splotches of an impressionist canvass.


British Empiricism, in the manner of bishop Berkeley, or David Hume.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Next the cars and street signs shed their very whatness.
Then even the trees and rats. So too,
That great bridge whose arches I presently crossed under.


Anti-essentialism. The loss of the philosophical essences of the Middle Ages. Welcome to Modern Philosophy. Alternatively, welcome to Modern Philosophy 101. Subject matter: Kant, Hegel, Rödl.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
And last the people, first becoming swinging masses
Of arms, head, and legs. Then so many lumps of flesh,
Until each of nine million was made up of its own millions.


Mereology 101. Van Inwagen's Special Composition Question (SCQ for short). Take your pick
1) Never (mereological nihilism)
2) Sometimes (mereological particularism)
3) Always (mereological universalism)

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Below the East seemed not so much a river,
As so many individual droplets, mixing in a frenetic
Haze, their boundaries boiling in a burning blur.


The Crisis of the European Identity. Orientalism and Occidentalism. Edward Said and Postcolonialism 101.
See the entry on Borealism for a related concept. For an example of "Austral-ism", see the entry on Ozploitation. Thank God I live in Argentina and not Australia.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
And lo! Across the East a beam from Heaven alit a park—
Full of trees, and children, clear and distinct!
To Brooklyn must my legs carry me thither.


: (

Well, I've been told it's the Pizza Mecca of the World, so there's that, I guess. It's just Rude City as far as I'm concerned, it just seems that way to me, it's an impression, there's nothing I can do to change it. If I could change my negative impression of New York City, I would, but I can't.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Yet upon that great beam planned under the Emancipator,
Confronted me three foul beasts, savage and rapine—
Although I cannot say just what they were.


This verse is intentionally secretive.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
(All quiddities fled, my noema but flux and flow).
Fearing them I turned back to Gotham.
Perhaps a man attempted to speak to me just then,


: (

The Ancient Greek part is cool, but the Batman part is not. : (

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Or perhaps it was merely a shade—another blotch.
All I could hear was sounds, ‘Sub Julio…’
Or some such nonsense.


Yes, I agree, it's subliminal nonsense. That's not what the channel of subliminality is for. It is for speaking of the Subliminal. It is in the Province of Aesthetics, Philosophy of Art. Therefore, it is within the Territory of Philosophy, rather than its Map. That is what I believe, but my beliefs could be mistaken. Some of them probably are.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Into the Earth went I, desperately descending downwards.
My hope I did not for one second abandon,
Though I could no longer read the great sign above.


Geology. As the great Iain Hamilton Grant said: "Life acts as a kind of Orphic guardian for Philosophy's descent into the Physical."

A sublime phrase, indeed.

(I'll continue this verse-by-verse commentary later, I need a break).
Arcane Sandwich January 21, 2025 at 02:17 #962494
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Once atrain I caught a glimpse of a maiden—so clear!
It was like a thunderclap in my mind. Bold ousia!
I dids’t not hold back the words that flooded frothing forth:


Like Zeus, the Greek God of Thunder, who somehow created or influenced the Aristotelian concept of a substance. But substance cannot be reduced to ousia, because the substance as synolon is not reducible in such a way. Nothing in the ousia is connected to the synolon. Aristotle gives separate arguments for them (ousia and synolon).

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
“Please, I beg thee, come near that I might grasp thine quiddity.”
I smiled, joyful in illumination, but her face fell.
I heard something then, not so clear as that angelic face.

“Tommy, this guy just said he was going to grab my ‘quiddity!’”
Her nose wrinkled on the last word in disgust.
And then a great dark shape resolved from behind her.

“Ah,” I exclaimed, “your quiddity is strength!
This I shall grasp!” And as I stretched out my mind,
So too my hands in shaking supplication.


Things cannot be Power all the way down. Nietzsche died a long time ago, we're not in the 19th Century anymore.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
“Ain’t no dude touching me and my girl’s quiddity
Ya pervert.” Then the blow struck me in the gut—
I collapsing as the angel called out “creep!”


Yeah, this is in bad taste. And you did it intentionally. It's like combining an expensive champagne (from the French champagne, campiña in Spanish, the countryside in English), with a Bic Mac hamburger from McDonald's.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
I swooned then and I know not how long I slept.
Awakening I found no thing around me, but
Furiously frenetic frothing, an oozing of oozes,


So, we went from the Wild West Billy the Kid sort of deal from the previous verse, just straight into Europe-ism? (A term that I made up, similar to "Eurocentrism" but without the "centrism" part).

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
(One step above prima materia). Yet still,
I glimpsed another through this mire,
One in the shape of a young girl.


Ancient Roman Latin. Which then became Medieval Latin. Which then became a collection of Romance languages: Italian, French, Spanish, and Portuguese, among others.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
And others too, began to resolve around me,
Though none so much as her. (“Sophia,” I think,
Some ooze called her.) “Please,” I implored to all sides


Her real name is Athena. She's the Goddess of Wisdom. Philosophy is simply her loyal Owl. The Ancient Romans called her Minerva. And Hegel said that the Owl of Minerva only opens its wings during the Midnight of History.



This would be a good place to end this Comment. I'll continue in a moment.
Arcane Sandwich January 21, 2025 at 02:41 #962498
Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
“I need ousia, quiddity, I’ve had none since
I crossed that fell land where two towers once fell,
Dissolving downwards into fiery multiplicity.”


Drugs. Heroin, specifically, in the case of Europe. Morphine is an even graver problem in that sense. And Fentanyl in North America is even worse. The same as Meth, the same as Crack Cocaine. And in Argentina it's Paco, the most poisonous drug that you can get. It's really the same problem everywhere, at the end of the day.

I'm not going to address the line about the two towers, its connection to the World Trade Center, and weird-ass interpretations of Nostradamus. I'm just not, because then the commentary gets unnecessarily crazy (and by definition, further from the Truth).

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
“Hey rumpot,” a voice whirled me about,
“Do you not know where you are?”
And I to her: “no, please tell me.”

“This is the Upper East Side y’stewbum.
Ain’t no one selling drugs around these parts.
Get yer ‘quiddity’ and ‘ousia’ somewhere else.

Decent folk live here. Folk with important jobs.
I was content to let you sleep it off before,
But if you’re going to harass them, you need to

Head downtown, to Lexington, and take
The N or Q to Coney. That’s where we let
The bums sleep in peace.

But lay off the sauce bud. Or whatever
This ousia stuff is. It’s no good for you.”
And with that, I jumped with joy!


The Aristotelian ousia is not the philosophical equivalent to a physically addictive poison. Simpler: substance is not a drug. A drug is a chemical substance, nothing more, nothing less. A substance simpliciter is what every ontological unit is, no matter if that unit is an object, or a subject. Simpler: the subject and the object are both substances, in the same Aristotelian sense.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
And would have kissed that angel, had she not
Gripped tightly her nightstick and pepper spray.
“A coney!” I shouted for joy. “Yes!


: (

I see what you're doing when you do that. It's an aesthetic crime. Like, combining an expensive French wine with a hamburger from McDonalds is some sort of "Cooking Crime". Are you going to go to jail for it? No, you're not. But it's like, it's a Rude Thing To Do.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
A coney, a rabbit, a gavagai. To that,
Island then I shall go at once.”
“Lay off the sauce” she repeated again,


A coney, as in Coney Island? : (

The essence of New York City, its "sauce", its quiddity, is Chaotic Ugliness. It's not Brisbane (Australia) anymore, it's New York City. Ugliest and most chaotic city in the world, just from an Aesthetic standpoint.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Although to this day I cannot be sure
What she was referring to here.
And so it was that I came to have a quest,


Like an RPG quest? :roll:
Lame.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
An aim towards which I moved,
As all things do (though nothing around me
Seemed to be such a thing anymore.)

For I had heard it said of old,
That if a man loseth his grasp on life,
On things, and aims, and principles,

Nevertheless he might still prevail, if he
Should meet with the celestial entities who
Dwell upon that fair isle.


What fair Isle? Long Island? It's probably the worst place in the world.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
The Lingua Civitatis who might restore
To one such as I, the loss of all things,
And from inchoate shifting sands construct

An entire world upon which to walk.


Upon which to walk, or upon which to talk?

I get the Idea of New York. I really do. The Great Cultural Melting Pot. I'm all for that. It's a Noble Goal. All I'm saying is that New Yorkers ("Knickerbockers", if you will) just seem like Rude People to me. I'd rather engage them as individuals, not as New Yorkers. Is that so bad?

Let's end this with a song, just to de-dramatize this whole thing.

Arcane Sandwich January 21, 2025 at 02:59 #962503
Reply to Count Timothy von Icarus Now for some Commentary on the title of your poem, The Dark Wood Where There Is No Error.

False. There is an Error In the Dark Wood. I've already asked the philosophical Quaestio about it in another Thread.

Here's my philosophical question. It's a very simple question:

Quoting Arcane Sandwich
Do whales sing?
Do whales speak to each other?
What do they say to each other?

Are they sad because they know that they will eventually die?
Is that why they beach themselves when they are sick?

Why do living creatures have to die?


It is the last question of that Quote that I am asking once again, here:

Why do living creatures have to die?

I don't want them to die painful, senseless deaths, in those cases in which they are capable of experiencing pain, to say nothing of the cases in which they are capable of suffering.
Arcane Sandwich January 21, 2025 at 03:13 #962504
And now for some Meta-Commentary, which is: Commentary of your Commentary:

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
I suppose that in the spirit of Dante I shall include some commentary on my own work. The first two tercets are from Longfellow's text of the Inferno, with just a word replaced, before the sudden shift.


You like the formal structure of Dante's poem, The Divine Comedy. I don't like it myself, from an Aesthetic point of view. It's an example of what is known in D&D as "Lawful Evil". I find it morally repulsive. It goes against the very concept of Citizenship.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
In the first Canto, Dante faces three beasts representing the three major types of sin into which hell is divided, a leopard (sins of fraud, involving the intellect), a lion (sins of violence), and a she-wolf (sins of incontinence). I cannot recognize them because I have lost my damned quiddities! Of course, one of the fears of any moral realist when it comes to social construction theories is that they will make it impossible to locate moral realities, since the distinction between the words of moral discourse, and associated behaviors, will collapse with the things referred to.


Moral Realism is not the Only Game In Town. It's not the only Live Option. Neither is Moral Relativism for that matter.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
"Sub Julio" is among Virgil's first words to Dante, but I don't recognize my guide as a man, nor recognize his words, and brush past him because I lost all my quiddities (alas!).

I descend into the Earth like Dante. I pass a "great sign" but do not "abandon all hope (ye who enter here)" because I can't read the darn thing (misplaced quiddities and all).

My disastrous interactions reflect the problems of invoking the ol' quiddity and ousia in foreign contexts.


Then just add quiddy and ousia to your ontology. I have them in my own personal ontology, for example. It's not a big deal. No one will accuse you of fascism for having the concept of an Aristotelian substance in your ontology. No one cares.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Prima materia is "prime matter," which is nothingness, sheer indeterminate potency, the chora.


No, prime matter is not nothingness. It is prime matter. It if was nothingness, it wouldn't be prime matter. And what holds for prime matter in that sense, holds for any other concept that gets equated with nothingness.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
Sophia is the Greek for wisdom. If I had it to do over, I might choose something about St. Lucy (illumination), and not recognizing her eyes (which were famously gouged out).


Athena rules over Sophia. Her Owl is philo-Sophia, without being Sophia.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
One cannot "lay off the sauce" if the whole world is dissolving into a mere sauce of indeterminate multiplicity.


This means nothing to me. It's not important.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
"Although to this day I cannot be sure what she was referring to here," on the view that words have no reference.


Words do indeed have references. They successfully refer. Always? No, just most of the time, and in the right context. De-contextualization, as an operation, necessarily de-references the word that has been de-contextualized.

Quoting Count Timothy von Icarus
I'll leave the rest a mystery.


There is no mystery to this text of yours. Just a good ol' Poem, that no Artificial Intelligence can match.