Reply to Truth Seeker
I had very harsh periods in my life but when I think about it I realize that it was exactly those periods that made me what I am, a stronger person. I am glad to be alive and I am thankful for all the people who contributed to my life, even those who treated me wrong, it does not matter to me now.
Yes. Without doubt. That does not mean I don't, overall, enjoy my life. I have an interest in continuing to exist. But, having never existed seems to me the best version of reality.
Reply to Truth Seeker A lot of people have periods where they wish they never existed. And some hold the view that, although they are not particularly unhappy, the burden of living isn't all that fabulous, so never having been born at all might have been preferable.
No. Being a consciousness of human intelligence (more or less) is the most extraordinary thing in the universe. In 13,500,000,000 years, in the universe of indescribable size, there have been an estimated 108,000,000,000 of us, and possibly nothing similar anywhere else. Being able to think and feel as we do is a rare thing, and a joyous thing.
I understand the decision to leave when suffering displaces all the good things about living.
I don't understand what it means to imagine that one does not exist or wish that one was not born. Those are activities that I have had no part in. I prefer to imagine events within I do participate.
Down The Rabbit HoleMarch 21, 2025 at 00:16#9773760 likes
No. Being a consciousness of human intelligence (more or less) is the most extraordinary thing in the universe. In 13,500,000,000 years, in the universe of indescribable size, there have been an estimated 108,000,000,000 of us, and possibly nothing similar anywhere else. Being able to think and feel as we do is a rare thing, and a joyous thing.
Reply to Patterner
This is what I meant to say before I pushed the post button by mistake.
There are some of us who think the world is a wonderful place and others who think it is a place of endless misery or at best indifference. None of us will ever convince people who disagree with us our way of seeing things makes more sense.
DifferentiatingEggMarch 21, 2025 at 00:46#9773850 likes
There are realities where I probably have committed suicide by now. But not this one, I've found a pathway out of my most abysmal hours.
Reply to Down The Rabbit Hole most likely, but even still, I prefered using antinatalism more as an argument against my ignorant parents when I was a kid, before I even knew what (anti)natalism was... it offended me that my parents would give birth to me with so little regard to me afterwards. Even though always present they were still, oddly enough, absentee parents. Never making an effort to ever know me. All while expecting me to live a certain way that I decided I never agreed to do so. To live to a way of life that made me feel sick to my stomach.
I'm a bit of an antinatalist, but I still voted No.
Down The Rabbit HoleMarch 21, 2025 at 02:16#9774160 likes
I have never found myself wishing I had never been born. For myself the interesting in life outweighs the boring, the enjoyable outweighs the distasteful and the pleasure outweighs the suffering. Of course, I've suffered through dark periods, and I have a dark side that is always there, but I find those prices acceptable.
In some jurisdictions you can sue for "wrongful life" when your suffering could have been avoided had the medical professionals advised your parents of a medical condition and they not had you.
Arguably, this could be widened to suffering not caused by a medical condition, in which case the parents would be liable. There was an antinatalist in India that said he was going to file suit for it.
There are some of us who think the world is a wonderful place and others who think it is a place of endless misery or at best indifference. None of us will ever convince people who disagree with us our way of seeing things makes more sense.
You are correct. But Truth Seeker asked, and that's my answer.
Being a consciousness of human intelligence (more or less) is the most extraordinary thing in the universe. In 13,500,000,000 years, in the universe of indescribable size, there have been an estimated 108,000,000,000 of us, and possibly nothing similar anywhere else. Being able to think and feel as we do is a rare thing, and a joyous thing.
Who cares? A series of zeros has no impact upon me.
I hold a largely positive view about the world - for the prosperous Westerner (which I am) life is good and mine has been mostly without difficulties and yet if I were faced with the improbable thought experiment - the choice of never having been born or living this life, I'm not convinced I would pick life.
This is a question that can only be answered by the context of nonexistence. To answer fully, one must understand the perspective of never having existed, and so the question somewhat becomes absurd.
If we answer that we wished we never existed, we're wishing for something in which we cannot perceive the other side of that question. Does a non-existent being wished to exist?
I also think the question needs to be asked in context. Like, for a person in great physical pain, tremendous suffering, the context changes the nature of the question.
It should be asked in the context of neutral experience. If I, as a neutral perceiver of reality would answer the question, I would say no, I would not want non-existence.
Because the negative of being robbed the ability to even contemplate that question through non-existence, makes existence more valuable as a concept as it gives me the ability to contemplate the question. Therefore, existence is preferable.
On a personal level, also no. The terror and absolute horror of death is the horror of non-existence. I think that people overvalue "non-existence" as something able to be perceived as some "place" of non-suffering existence, but it's not, there's nothing, an absolute void of the being itself.
I think people who wished for that state has set a context around that wish that has nothing to do with the concept of existence vs non-existence. Either it's about relief from pain and suffering, for which there exists ways within life to overcome, even if society is often bad at handling people who suffer. Or it's framed as a message to others, like a threat or promise to other people that my non-existence will either "show them" or "heal them", which is a concept that is simply nonsensical when following it to its logical conclusion.
No, I'm really opposite the notion of non-existence. I would never wish for it as even entertaining the idea of my mind slipping into non-existence in death is an absolute blackness of horror. The only negative thing about my existence is the awareness I have of the concept of non-existence. It gave me perception of my original state and the horror is losing everything back into it, oblivion.
This is part of why I dislike religion so much. Even if someone isn't religious or spiritual, so many people have still been indoctrinated into a concept of non-existence being perceivable in some form. That is a "state of being" when it's nothing at all. So when people say they want to end their lives to end their suffering, they fundamentally still believe that it is an end to something in the way we perceive ends as a living being, in that we experience something ending and then beginning anew.
That we can perceive the relief of our existence ending, when there's nothing there to perceive it. I rather perceive my suffering than perceiving nothing at all.
Like the poem Aubade by Philip Larkin (here read in the series Devs)
Philip Larkin:...not seeing
That this is what we fearno sight, no sound,
No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with,
Nothing to love or link with,
The anesthetic from which none come round.
Who cares? A series of zeros has no impact upon me.
Again, Truth Seeker asked a question, and I answered. In all honesty, having an impact upon you hadn't entered my mind.
Reply to 180 Proof Indeed. Soon enough, after this extremely brief period of existence, we will all not exist for eternity.
DifferentiatingEggMarch 21, 2025 at 12:38#9774750 likes
Reply to Down The Rabbit Hole Interesting I wasn't aware, in fact, my father should have done this to his father, who had a few million to his name, via business, but he destroyed my father's dreams and family to go off with his secretary. But my father always was spineless in standing up to his pops.
And so my father went on his way to become independent, but was ultimately torn to piecemeal by a cavern dwelling minotaur of consciousness... My father stopped eating and drinking a few weeks ago. I creamated my father last week, so no need to for me to do such a thing. My mother is sweet in all her ignorance, and doubly innocent due to it, even if she was peculiarly absent. She was there, but never really could fathom me, or even my sister. She doesn't even realize that sometimes her advice is so insulting, regardless, I can't bring myself to hate my parents, especially not my mom.
Reply to Wayfarer I am not a nihilist. I just wish I never existed. I am happy for others to exist. In fact, I have saved and improved many lives over the years through my work and blood donations, money donations, etc. I am also on the Organ Donation Register for donating all organs so even in death I will be saving and improving lives. I have been suffering from CPTSD for 42 years and 3 months, Bipolar Disorder for 27 years and 6 months and chronic nerve pain for 16 years and 7 months. So, I am no stranger to suffering. I think life is full of suffering, inequality, injustice and deaths. 99.9% of all the species to exist so far on Earth are already extinct. 100 billion out of the 108 billion humans born so far are already dead. The rest will die, too. I wish I never existed but I had no say in the matter of my coming into existence. I wish I could make all living things forever happy but I can't. I wish I could prevent all suffering and death but I can't.
Reply to Truth Seeker
I have been suffering from Schizophrenia and deep depression for almost 30 years. The month I don't remember, LOL. My life is not easy too but nothing could possibly prevent me from fighting and keeping a positive view of life. I become stronger each day by facing new challenges. I am a fighter and I think you can become a fighter too! :wink:
That's rough. But the outlook is aligned with what I've been saying. Rough times can produce the illusion that non-existence is a "relief", but it's only a relief in the experience of someone who can perceive it; the only way to perceive a relief from it is to somehow persevere through it and be able to perceive it as an existing consciousness. Anything else is an illusion of relief by the need to be someone relieved of it, without accepting that this someone is nothing.
Reply to Christoffer
IIRC, Hesse wrote in [I]Steppenwolf[/I] that the character gained a measure of comfort by deciding on a date to commit suicide, because that gavr him a date his suffering would end. So not as much "I will feel peace" as "I will no longer feel pain."
Reply to Truth Seeker
I assumed that, having been going through what you've been going through for as long as you've been going through it, you surely knew the answer to that. I wondered if there was a reason beyond that.
Reply to MoK Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. I am so sorry about the hard times you have experienced. Are you on medications? What helps you? Thank you for the link to the music video. I am listening to it. While I am wiser now then I was before, I am not stronger. My symptoms reduce my quality of life significantly.
Reply to Patterner There are lots of intellectual people on this forum, so I thought it would be a good place to ask this question. I have asked this question before in another forum for vegans where most of them said that they wished they never existed.
Anyway, so you did, indeed, already know that there was someone else on Earth who wished they never existed. Any other particular motivation for asking again here?
Yes, but I didn't know if there were others on this forum who also wished they never existed. It turns out, there are a few. The main reason given by my fellow vegans for wishing for non-existence is the abundance of suffering on Earth which they find very distressing. We vegans seem to be more sensitive - perhaps that's why we go vegan when more than 99% of humans currently alive are not vegan. We don't want to cause suffering and death by consuming animal products.
IIRC, Hesse wrote in Steppenwolf that the character gained a measure of comfort by deciding on a date to commit suicide, because that gavr him a date his suffering would end. So not as much "I will feel peace" as "I will no longer feel pain."
Yes, as I mentioned, when it comes to actual physical pain and suffering, something that may be impossible to overcome, for instance with certain diseases, all of this has another dimension in that the suffering stops. However, almost all cases of "pain ending" or "suffering ending" is attached to the notion that there will be someone perceiving that relief after it has ended, but there isn't one. You don't only end the pain and suffering, you end it all; essentially nuking your entire being rather than just ending the pain and suffering. And many are so suppressed by their pain and suffering that they view themselves as only being that. But everyone who's pushed past such phases in life has always regretted such ideas of ending themselves.
I haven't read Steppenwolf, but imagine that he decided such a date and when the date came, the man had changed and didn't feel the pain anymore.
Physical pain that persist to the point of unrelenting suffering is closer to euthanasia, which I don't view the same as with the psychological pain people experience. It's another ethical and existential question really.
The main reason given by my fellow vegans for wishing for non-existence is the abundance of suffering on Earth which they find very distressing. We vegans seem to be more sensitive - perhaps that's why we go vegan when more than 99% of humans currently alive are not vegan.
But suffering is part of life. There's no joy without suffering, no life without death. The entire reality we exist in is formed around this cyclical dual phasing. We are part of this reality, this nature as all beings, only we are aware of this cycle in a way no other animal is.
But that also gives us a responsibility to handle this knowledge; it is both a burden and a blessing to have it. Not to see the suffering of others, but to form a balance and harmony with the reality of it. We can't reject our existence in that sense, we need to harmonize with it. With all concepts of it. Life, death, the cycle; entropy perceiving itself. So... perceive it and don't waste this experience of being. We can fight for all to experience it as well, to gain the well being of experiencing reality; but we cannot disconnect anyone or ourselves from death itself, or their part in the cycle.
We are all food for nature, in some form or another. Like the bacteria in our guts slowly eating us through life only to fully consume us in death. They've cultivated us as their cattle, nurtured in symbiosis until the final feast of their lives.
I think we humans have an arrogance problem. Both in terms of belief in our importance and of our own responsibility. We either believe ourselves to be above nature and the universe, cultivating religious thoughts of our own importance. Or we view ourselves as responsible for processes that are naturally occurring phenomena of an animal, believing that because we can perceive ourselves as consuming nature, we have a responsibility not to.
I think we should find a harmony between our perceptive self-awareness and natural state; to accept who we are in a responsible manner; not praising our egos into power or blaming our awareness into oblivion.
Yes, but I didn't know if there were others on this forum who also wished they never existed. It turns out, there are a few. The main reason given by my fellow vegans for wishing for non-existence is the abundance of suffering on Earth which they find very distressing. We vegans seem to be more sensitive - perhaps that's why we go vegan when more than 99% of humans currently alive are not vegan.
That could be. So maybe you're asking because you're trying to find correlations, maybe even causes?
I'll stop beating around the bush. I thought maybe you ask in different places because you don't wish you never existed as much as you wish you didn't wish you never existed, and you're hoping, eventually, someone will say something that clicks with you, and makes you wish it less. IOW, the reason you have not committed suicide is you don't want to be non-existent. You want to be happy, and you're looking for ways to make that happen.
Reply to Christoffer
Very well said! Being a conscious being is not easy since you are subject to suffering soon or late. Being conscious, however, is a unique experience. You love, you then lose your love. You hate those who abused you. Even if you are a healthy adult and have a joyful life, you become old and suffering is awaiting you. I however strongly believe that each human being has huge potential so we can manage any situation regardless of how difficult it is. People complain about how hard life is because they don't realize this inner strength. Once you find out this strength through regular practice then will realize that nothing can break you.
Reply to Truth Seeker
Yes, I have my medications routinely. I was hospitalized three times because I was out of my mind and had unbearable depression. I was under electroconvulsive therapy a few times too.
The main reason given by my fellow vegans for wishing for non-existence is the abundance of suffering on Earth which they find very distressing. We vegans seem to be more sensitive - perhaps that's why we go vegan when more than 99% of humans currently alive are not vegan.
Truth Seeker
But suffering is part of life. There's no joy without suffering, no life without death. The entire reality we exist in is formed around this cyclical dual phasing. We are part of this reality, this nature as all beings, only we are aware of this cycle in a way no other animal is.
But that also gives us a responsibility to handle this knowledge; it is both a burden and a blessing to have it. Not to see the suffering of others, but to form a balance and harmony with the reality of it. We can't reject our existence in that sense, we need to harmonize with it. With all concepts of it. Life, death, the cycle; entropy perceiving itself. So... perceive it and don't waste this experience of being. We can fight for all to experience it as well, to gain the well being of experiencing reality; but we cannot disconnect anyone or ourselves from death itself, or their part in the cycle.
We are all food for nature, in some form or another. Like the bacteria in our guts slowly eating us through life only to fully consume us in death. They've cultivated us as their cattle, nurtured in symbiosis until the final feast of their lives.
I think we humans have an arrogance problem. Both in terms of belief in our importance and of our own responsibility. We either believe ourselves to be above nature and the universe, cultivating religious thoughts of our own importance. Or we view ourselves as responsible for processes that are naturally occurring phenomena of an animal, believing that because we can perceive ourselves as consuming nature, we have a responsibility not to.
I think we should find a harmony between our perceptive self-awareness and natural state; to accept who we are in a responsible manner; not praising our egos into power or blaming our awareness into oblivion.
You are right. How much culpability do humans have? How do you work it out? If hard determinism is true, we have zero culpability.
Yes, but I didn't know if there were others on this forum who also wished they never existed. It turns out, there are a few. The main reason given by my fellow vegans for wishing for non-existence is the abundance of suffering on Earth which they find very distressing. We vegans seem to be more sensitive - perhaps that's why we go vegan when more than 99% of humans currently alive are not vegan.
Truth Seeker
That could be. So maybe you're asking because you're trying to find correlations, maybe even causes?
I'll stop beating around the bush. I thought maybe you ask in different places because you don't wish you never existed as much as you wish you didn't wish you never existed, and you're hoping, eventually, someone will say something that clicks with you, and makes you wish it less. IOW, the reason you have not committed suicide is you don't want to be non-existent. You want to be happy, and you're looking for ways to make that happen.
I think about suicide every day and have done so for 37 years. The main reason I haven't killed myself is that it would cause suffering to my family and extended family. I would love to be happy. I would love to be cured of my CPTSD, Bipolar Disorder and Chronic Nerve Pain. If you have a cure, please let me know.
Yes, I have my medications routinely. I was hospitalized three times because I was out of my mind and had unbearable depression. I was under electroconvulsive therapy a few times too.
We have much in common. I received 9 sessions of Electroconvulsive Therapy. I have also been hospitalised 3 times due to the severity of my Bipolar Disorder. I have been on many medications. I am currently taking 600 mg of Quetiapine XL per night but I am still struggling with symptoms.
Ah, if I had a cure, I would be a gajillionaire, eh? And, with your decades of suffering, presumably having tried everything imaginable, and me not being at all educated or trained in these matters, I wouldn't dare even suggest anything.
But I can't help but think it means something that you would love to be cured and happy. I imagine many don't feel that way. Is that because you have glimpsed happiness, and want more? Or because you assume it's better than what you've been living with? If the former, then I guess that means there are possibilities.
If you have a cure, please let me know.
Truth Seeker
Ah, if I had a cure, I would be a gajillionaire, eh? And, with your decades of suffering, presumably having tried everything imaginable, and me not being at all educated or trained in these matters, I wouldn't dare even suggest anything.
But I can't help but think it means something that you would love to be cured and happy. I imagine many don't feel that way. Is that because you have glimpsed happiness, and want more? Or because you assume it's better than what you've been living with? If the former, then I guess that means there are possibilities.
I wish I could help.
Thank you for wishing you could help. I have tried so many things over the years. Some things have helped a bit. I remember my fourth birthday party. I was happy back then. I was blissfully ignorant about all the suffering, unfairness and deaths in the world. I didn't know all the horrors that awaited me over the rest of my life. That was my last happy birthday. I wish I had died then or better still, I wish I never existed.
Reply to Truth Seeker
Have you ever tried RTMS? I went through the whole treatment. It didn't help me but I found out many people happy with the treatment!
Reply to Truth Seeker
Yes, I am talking about Repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation. The first treatment is 30 sessions each day once. Then twice a week if the first treatment was not successful. Then once a week if the previous treatment was not successful. Etc. I strongly recommend you give it a try even if you have to have a short trip. Hopefully, that would help you.
There's no joy without suffering, no life without death. The entire reality we exist in is formed around this cyclical dual phasing. We are part of this reality, this nature as all beings, only we are aware of this cycle in a way no other animal is.
But that also gives us a responsibility to handle this knowledge; it is both a burden and a blessing to have it. Not to see the suffering of others, but to form a balance and harmony with the reality of it. We can't reject our existence in that sense, we need to harmonize with it. With all concepts of it. Life, death, the cycle; entropy perceiving itself. So... perceive it and don't waste this experience of being. We can fight for all to experience it as well, to gain the well being of experiencing reality; but we cannot disconnect anyone or ourselves from death itself, or their part in the cycle.
We are all food for nature, in some form or another. Like the bacteria in our guts slowly eating us through life only to fully consume us in death. They've cultivated us as their cattle, nurtured in symbiosis until the final feast of their lives.
I think about suicide every day and have done so for 37 years. The main reason I haven't killed myself is that it would cause suffering to my family and extended family. I would love to be happy. I would love to be cured of my CPTSD, Bipolar Disorder and Chronic Nerve Pain.
A latter-day Sisyphus no doubt your struggle (i.e. love), my friend, is stronger than your suffering let that be your peace. There are no solipsists in foxholes. :flower:
Again, Truth Seeker asked a question, and I answered. In all honesty, having an impact upon you hadn't entered my mind.
That goes for most answers here when others chime in. The argument from "the remarkableness of life" isn't always effective and no one else had made that point.
I think about suicide every day and have done so for 37 years. The main reason I haven't killed myself is that it would cause suffering to my family and extended family. I would love to be happy. I would love to be cured of my CPTSD, Bipolar Disorder and Chronic Nerve Pain.
Sounds like you have a lot of challenges to manage. Your question has much more impact hearing this. For what it's worth, I wish you well. You've been resilient and strong in the face of significant difficulties. :pray:
Reply to Tom Storm
Truth Seeker didn't ask for an argument, and I didn't make one. Truth Seeker asked if wish we never existed, and I said No. Yeah, I elaborated for a few sentences. But, I mean, who gives one-word answers on The Philosophy Forum??
As far as arguments go, I know enough about the topic to know you don't argue or reason your way out of what Truth Seeker is going through. I have the deepest sympathy.
Sounds like you have a lot of challenges to manage. Your question has much more impact hearing this. For what it's worth, I wish you well. You've been resilient and strong in the face of significant difficulties.
Thank you very much for your empathy and appreciation.
Comments (68)
I had very harsh periods in my life but when I think about it I realize that it was exactly those periods that made me what I am, a stronger person. I am glad to be alive and I am thankful for all the people who contributed to my life, even those who treated me wrong, it does not matter to me now.
Quoting AmadeusD
Yes - just as I was writing the above.
Suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please
Original lyrics to the MASH theme (removed by network TV)
The lyrics were written by Robert Altman's son when he was 15.
But it is a great song.
I don't understand what it means to imagine that one does not exist or wish that one was not born. Those are activities that I have had no part in. I prefer to imagine events within I do participate.
Yes, I think my life is marginally bad now, and expect end of life to be horrific.
Interesting that 45% also say they with they never existed. Surely this is an argument for antinatalism.
Do you have a source for that information?
This is what I meant to say before I pushed the post button by mistake.
There are some of us who think the world is a wonderful place and others who think it is a place of endless misery or at best indifference. None of us will ever convince people who disagree with us our way of seeing things makes more sense.
most likely, but even still, I prefered using antinatalism more as an argument against my ignorant parents when I was a kid, before I even knew what (anti)natalism was... it offended me that my parents would give birth to me with so little regard to me afterwards. Even though always present they were still, oddly enough, absentee parents. Never making an effort to ever know me. All while expecting me to live a certain way that I decided I never agreed to do so. To live to a way of life that made me feel sick to my stomach.
I'm a bit of an antinatalist, but I still voted No.
The poll in the OP.
So "nothing" sound pleasant?
In some jurisdictions you can sue for "wrongful life" when your suffering could have been avoided had the medical professionals advised your parents of a medical condition and they not had you.
Arguably, this could be widened to suffering not caused by a medical condition, in which case the parents would be liable. There was an antinatalist in India that said he was going to file suit for it.
I don't understand when people don't understand this. :wink:
Quoting Patterner
Who cares? A series of zeros has no impact upon me.
I hold a largely positive view about the world - for the prosperous Westerner (which I am) life is good and mine has been mostly without difficulties and yet if I were faced with the improbable thought experiment - the choice of never having been born or living this life, I'm not convinced I would pick life.
Agree.
:up:
:up:
:death: :flower:
If we answer that we wished we never existed, we're wishing for something in which we cannot perceive the other side of that question. Does a non-existent being wished to exist?
I also think the question needs to be asked in context. Like, for a person in great physical pain, tremendous suffering, the context changes the nature of the question.
It should be asked in the context of neutral experience. If I, as a neutral perceiver of reality would answer the question, I would say no, I would not want non-existence.
Because the negative of being robbed the ability to even contemplate that question through non-existence, makes existence more valuable as a concept as it gives me the ability to contemplate the question. Therefore, existence is preferable.
On a personal level, also no. The terror and absolute horror of death is the horror of non-existence. I think that people overvalue "non-existence" as something able to be perceived as some "place" of non-suffering existence, but it's not, there's nothing, an absolute void of the being itself.
I think people who wished for that state has set a context around that wish that has nothing to do with the concept of existence vs non-existence. Either it's about relief from pain and suffering, for which there exists ways within life to overcome, even if society is often bad at handling people who suffer. Or it's framed as a message to others, like a threat or promise to other people that my non-existence will either "show them" or "heal them", which is a concept that is simply nonsensical when following it to its logical conclusion.
No, I'm really opposite the notion of non-existence. I would never wish for it as even entertaining the idea of my mind slipping into non-existence in death is an absolute blackness of horror. The only negative thing about my existence is the awareness I have of the concept of non-existence. It gave me perception of my original state and the horror is losing everything back into it, oblivion.
This is part of why I dislike religion so much. Even if someone isn't religious or spiritual, so many people have still been indoctrinated into a concept of non-existence being perceivable in some form. That is a "state of being" when it's nothing at all. So when people say they want to end their lives to end their suffering, they fundamentally still believe that it is an end to something in the way we perceive ends as a living being, in that we experience something ending and then beginning anew.
That we can perceive the relief of our existence ending, when there's nothing there to perceive it. I rather perceive my suffering than perceiving nothing at all.
Like the poem Aubade by Philip Larkin (here read in the series Devs)
Indeed. Soon enough, after this extremely brief period of existence, we will all not exist for eternity.
And so my father went on his way to become independent, but was ultimately torn to piecemeal by a cavern dwelling minotaur of consciousness... My father stopped eating and drinking a few weeks ago. I creamated my father last week, so no need to for me to do such a thing. My mother is sweet in all her ignorance, and doubly innocent due to it, even if she was peculiarly absent. She was there, but never really could fathom me, or even my sister. She doesn't even realize that sometimes her advice is so insulting, regardless, I can't bring myself to hate my parents, especially not my mom.
Serious question. Not at all sarcastic, or intended in any negative way. Why did you make the OP?
I have been suffering from Schizophrenia and deep depression for almost 30 years. The month I don't remember, LOL. My life is not easy too but nothing could possibly prevent me from fighting and keeping a positive view of life. I become stronger each day by facing new challenges. I am a fighter and I think you can become a fighter too! :wink:
That's rough. But the outlook is aligned with what I've been saying. Rough times can produce the illusion that non-existence is a "relief", but it's only a relief in the experience of someone who can perceive it; the only way to perceive a relief from it is to somehow persevere through it and be able to perceive it as an existing consciousness. Anything else is an illusion of relief by the need to be someone relieved of it, without accepting that this someone is nothing.
IIRC, Hesse wrote in [I]Steppenwolf[/I] that the character gained a measure of comfort by deciding on a date to commit suicide, because that gavr him a date his suffering would end. So not as much "I will feel peace" as "I will no longer feel pain."
I assumed that, having been going through what you've been going through for as long as you've been going through it, you surely knew the answer to that. I wondered if there was a reason beyond that.
That's an interesting correlation.
Anyway, so you did, indeed, already know that there was someone else on Earth who wished they never existed. Any other particular motivation for asking again here?
Yes, as I mentioned, when it comes to actual physical pain and suffering, something that may be impossible to overcome, for instance with certain diseases, all of this has another dimension in that the suffering stops. However, almost all cases of "pain ending" or "suffering ending" is attached to the notion that there will be someone perceiving that relief after it has ended, but there isn't one. You don't only end the pain and suffering, you end it all; essentially nuking your entire being rather than just ending the pain and suffering. And many are so suppressed by their pain and suffering that they view themselves as only being that. But everyone who's pushed past such phases in life has always regretted such ideas of ending themselves.
I haven't read Steppenwolf, but imagine that he decided such a date and when the date came, the man had changed and didn't feel the pain anymore.
Physical pain that persist to the point of unrelenting suffering is closer to euthanasia, which I don't view the same as with the psychological pain people experience. It's another ethical and existential question really.
But suffering is part of life. There's no joy without suffering, no life without death. The entire reality we exist in is formed around this cyclical dual phasing. We are part of this reality, this nature as all beings, only we are aware of this cycle in a way no other animal is.
But that also gives us a responsibility to handle this knowledge; it is both a burden and a blessing to have it. Not to see the suffering of others, but to form a balance and harmony with the reality of it. We can't reject our existence in that sense, we need to harmonize with it. With all concepts of it. Life, death, the cycle; entropy perceiving itself. So... perceive it and don't waste this experience of being. We can fight for all to experience it as well, to gain the well being of experiencing reality; but we cannot disconnect anyone or ourselves from death itself, or their part in the cycle.
We are all food for nature, in some form or another. Like the bacteria in our guts slowly eating us through life only to fully consume us in death. They've cultivated us as their cattle, nurtured in symbiosis until the final feast of their lives.
I think we humans have an arrogance problem. Both in terms of belief in our importance and of our own responsibility. We either believe ourselves to be above nature and the universe, cultivating religious thoughts of our own importance. Or we view ourselves as responsible for processes that are naturally occurring phenomena of an animal, believing that because we can perceive ourselves as consuming nature, we have a responsibility not to.
I think we should find a harmony between our perceptive self-awareness and natural state; to accept who we are in a responsible manner; not praising our egos into power or blaming our awareness into oblivion.
I'll stop beating around the bush. I thought maybe you ask in different places because you don't wish you never existed as much as you wish you didn't wish you never existed, and you're hoping, eventually, someone will say something that clicks with you, and makes you wish it less. IOW, the reason you have not committed suicide is you don't want to be non-existent. You want to be happy, and you're looking for ways to make that happen.
Very well said! Being a conscious being is not easy since you are subject to suffering soon or late. Being conscious, however, is a unique experience. You love, you then lose your love. You hate those who abused you. Even if you are a healthy adult and have a joyful life, you become old and suffering is awaiting you. I however strongly believe that each human being has huge potential so we can manage any situation regardless of how difficult it is. People complain about how hard life is because they don't realize this inner strength. Once you find out this strength through regular practice then will realize that nothing can break you.
Yes, I have my medications routinely. I was hospitalized three times because I was out of my mind and had unbearable depression. I was under electroconvulsive therapy a few times too.
:100: :up:
You are right. How much culpability do humans have? How do you work it out? If hard determinism is true, we have zero culpability.
I think about suicide every day and have done so for 37 years. The main reason I haven't killed myself is that it would cause suffering to my family and extended family. I would love to be happy. I would love to be cured of my CPTSD, Bipolar Disorder and Chronic Nerve Pain. If you have a cure, please let me know.
We have much in common. I received 9 sessions of Electroconvulsive Therapy. I have also been hospitalised 3 times due to the severity of my Bipolar Disorder. I have been on many medications. I am currently taking 600 mg of Quetiapine XL per night but I am still struggling with symptoms.
But I can't help but think it means something that you would love to be cured and happy. I imagine many don't feel that way. Is that because you have glimpsed happiness, and want more? Or because you assume it's better than what you've been living with? If the former, then I guess that means there are possibilities.
I wish I could help.
Thank you for wishing you could help. I have tried so many things over the years. Some things have helped a bit. I remember my fourth birthday party. I was happy back then. I was blissfully ignorant about all the suffering, unfairness and deaths in the world. I didn't know all the horrors that awaited me over the rest of my life. That was my last happy birthday. I wish I had died then or better still, I wish I never existed.
Have you ever tried RTMS? I went through the whole treatment. It didn't help me but I found out many people happy with the treatment!
Are you talking about Repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation? Then I have not tried it. It is not yet available where I live.
Yes, I am talking about Repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation. The first treatment is 30 sessions each day once. Then twice a week if the first treatment was not successful. Then once a week if the previous treatment was not successful. Etc. I strongly recommend you give it a try even if you have to have a short trip. Hopefully, that would help you.
My wish is that all the people that wished they never existed would be granted their wish. Just so I could stop hearing about it.
Yeah, thatd be funny or biting, if not for the fact that youre too stupid to realize that was a joke. But keep trying.
:100: :fire:
Quoting Truth Seeker
Quoting Truth Seeker
A latter-day Sisyphus no doubt your struggle (i.e. love), my friend, is stronger than your suffering let that be your peace. There are no solipsists in foxholes. :flower:
That goes for most answers here when others chime in. The argument from "the remarkableness of life" isn't always effective and no one else had made that point.
Sounds like you have a lot of challenges to manage. Your question has much more impact hearing this. For what it's worth, I wish you well. You've been resilient and strong in the face of significant difficulties. :pray:
Truth Seeker didn't ask for an argument, and I didn't make one. Truth Seeker asked if wish we never existed, and I said No. Yeah, I elaborated for a few sentences. But, I mean, who gives one-word answers on The Philosophy Forum??
As far as arguments go, I know enough about the topic to know you don't argue or reason your way out of what Truth Seeker is going through. I have the deepest sympathy.
I realize, belatedly, that my remark could be taken as dismissive. I have not had that particular experience.
Why not? I ask myself. There certainly were plenty of times when the Reaper could have collected you/me for a train squashed penny.
When the material hit my fan, I wanted another life. Sometimes, they seemed interchangeable.
I never did exist. Or perhaps my wish was granted.
Thank you very much for your empathy and advice.
Thank you very much for your empathy and appreciation.