Toilets and Ablutions

There's a dude I follow in the social medias who does geographic and political science work on waste-water, and I've seen him express sentiments similar to what you're alluding to. Which indicates to me that there's probably something there, though I wouldn't have a clue as to how to go about doing the research or who to read to start getting a foothold into the thought.

There might be something there, but here is a wrinkle: Charles Taylor reviews a lot of anthropology in his mammoth A Secular Age, and one of the things he notes is the extreme expansion of "personal privacy" in the modern era. For instance, the use of open air latrines by most people (or later communal outhouses) was the norm (and remained the norm in parts of this world into the 21st century.) But this was true in places with ablution rituals.

Likewise, wealthy people would often unthinkingly get completely naked in front of their servants to be dressed or bathed. Naked swimming classes were still normal in the West into the 20th century, and so too the open air shower and changing areas. This jives with a lot of other stuff I've read. Ablutions were often communal, and the sphere of "personal privacy" associated with toilets today was seemingly much smaller (although gender segregation was still a thing, but it was a communal thing).

Taylor convincingly ties this increase in the sphere of personal privacy to the "buffered self," the reasoning self that is immune to outside influence or cosmic forces/orders. The interesting thing here is that the rise of the buffered self has a fairly obvious connection to the end of religious ritual in general (not just communal ritual being made private). Afterall, if one is immune to cosmic forces, all ritual is ultimately symbolic and merely about affecting the buffered mind. So, the rise of toilet privacy sort of coincides with a reduction in the importance of ablutions.

But maybe this makes sense. If the point of the ritual is not the ritual itself, but its effects on the buffered mind, then it won't do to have other people around distracting you, or to have one's thoughts and actions influenced by other's actions.

Reply to Count Timothy von Icarus Interesting thoughts.

What strikes me is the integration of 'bathing' and 'waste disposal'. It seems like an unlikely combo, where one is refined and even sophisticated (roman bath houses or 'powder rooms') and the other is ... well, a less romantic scene!

What do you think about this strange partnership? Why on earth does anyone have a toilet located anywhere near where they clean themselves? Obviously it is practical in one sense, yet in order it seems absurd to the point of being obscene.

Quoting I like sushi

Why on earth does anyone have a toilet located anywhere near where they clean themselves?

It's humbling. Pride causes war and is essentially the root cause of all human suffering, when you really think about it.

It's almost like you seem to be forgetting just how innovative and marvelous modern plumbing is. It wasn't that long ago, you had to wash yourself in a river. An unfortunate commonplace display even today. Right now. If you were dropped on a desert island, rich in every mineral imaginable to create modern infrastructure. Could you really reproduce it right then and there by yourself with no aide or alien (foreign) knowledge or assistance? I'd humbly rest in the position that you perhaps could not.

Reply to I like sushi

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but my knowledge of pre-modern architecture and bathing facilities suggests these were distinct. I am not sure there is that much too it outside of the physical necessity of having to run indoor plumbing into multiple rooms precluding this separation. Larger, wealthier homes often do put the toilet in an adjoining room, but you put them close because otherwise you would need to run separate pipe, and even if you are rich you still want things to be easy and quick to fix.

But, as the taboo on nudity grows, it also makes sense to colocate them, since both require disrobing.

Reply to Count Timothy von Icarus The older colonial mansions I have visited (which are not all that old given my country) did not have bathrooms. A tub was brought into the bedroom or dressing groom, for washing, perhaps once a week. Toilets in large mansions (if indoors) were often downstairs near the back because plumbing and water pressure was a problem. Income and class has a lot to do with it. My father, who grew up almost a hundred years ago, did not have access to a bathroom in the family home. People went to communal bath houses. Men had a shave twice a week at the barbers. Sometimes people would use a sink for a quick wash. Interestingly you see bath tubs in kitchens in old New York apartments. I remember seeing the painter Francis Bacon's apartment in London and it had a bath in his kitchen too.

Quoting I like sushi

What do you think about this strange partnership? Why on earth does anyone have a toilet located anywhere near where they clean themselves? Obviously it is practical in one sense, yet in order it seems absurd to the point of being obscene.

There are differences between spiritual cleansings (baptisms, mikvahs) and hygienic cleansing (scrubbing the grease off your paws). I take "ablution" to reference the spiritual sort. My guess is most traditions wouldn't allow a spiritual dip in the shitter.

Cleaning requires water requires pipes, so the toilet finds itself hooked up to the same water pipes and drain pipes as the shower, thus the close proximity. Most bathrooms are clean, although I wouldn't bare ass it at the Highway 21 Stop and Go. In prison, where I've not been, I hear they brush their teeth in the shiny steel bowl, but there's lots of stuff not worth talking about goes down there.

What say the Rabbis? https://www.yeshiva.co/ask/7431

I think the story goes that the privy was outside up until it was hygienic enough to come in from the cold. It's just a modern convenience that emerged through technology more than some change in social norm.

Reply to Tom Storm Reply to Hanover Reply to Count Timothy von Icarus I am looking at this over the span of human history.

From some brief investigations it does appear that washing and toilet facilities were kept separate (eg. Roman times). What I find particularly strange is that in purification rituals (common across all beliefs) it makes no sense to mix toilets and cleaning areas.

In the modern day plumbing technologies, and social habits, have changed this but perhaps there are certain hang ups about this?

In another area, it is undoubtedly true that feces were collected for agricultural use and this must have shaped how toilets were designed and operated. I do not buy into the idea that it is simply due to plumbing convenience as we do not find toilets, baths or showers in kitchen areas. Adjacent, yes. Combined, no.

Quoting Outlander

It wasn't that long ago, you had to wash yourself in a river.

It was a fairly long time ago ... nearly 15 years now. How did you know? Were you spying on me when I shat on the jungle floor too?

Quoting I like sushi

do not buy into the idea that it is simply due to plumbing convenience as we do not find toilets, baths or showers in kitchen areas. Adjacent, yes. Combined, no.

You don't get naked when you cook, so it's not necessary to put an oven next to the bathtub. Bathrooms are private places, which explains putting toilets next to showers. It's the private room.

Reply to Hanover I am not sure what nudity has to do with this. I think that is more or less Victorian era hang up.

btw I only get naked when I go to the toilet because this country is VERY hot.

Quoting Hanover

Bathrooms are private places, which explains putting toilets next to showers.

Now. Not always.

Quoting I like sushi

I do not buy into the idea that it is simply due to plumbing convenience as we do not find toilets, baths or showers in kitchen areas.

Quoting Tom Storm

Interestingly you see bath tubs in kitchens in old New York apartments. I remember seeing the painter Francis Bacon's apartment in London and it had a bath in his kitchen too.

Reply to Tom Storm Yes. Not now though. That was probably a matter of convenience though as it was the only place to get hot water.

I think we are getting off track though. I am exploring the social habits of humans in general, not just in this specific period of time. I am curious as to how our attitudes have changed and why - on a psychological level rather than just one of mere convenience.

The Romans had adequate plumbing and kept bathing a defecation apart. That is one instance. This is not to say convenience does not play any roll. Even if you believe it is the main role I am interested in other factors.

I was initially thinking about such habits as becoming ritualised and how and why they became so. I wonder if there is some underlying trait that views purification as something other than physical (hygiene) and is more about mental purification - by way of isolation.

Reply to I like sushi Heh -- I'd say that if you're after the anthropological angle then questions of comparisons between Romans and plumbing are too big picture.

And "ablutions" may not be the right word. It depends on what we're talking about, rather than Big Ideas.

I do think that there's a relationship between how people decide to deal with the facts of being biological creatures who eat and poop, and one's culture. But I have no idea how to investigate that in a serious fashion.

Quoting Moliere

And "ablutions" may not be the right word.

It is the right word. It is not the only word though. I am interested in the subconscious aspects here in relation to secular and non-secular rituals.

Quoting I like sushi

I am not sure what nudity has to do with this. I think that is more or less Victorian era hang up.

btw I only get naked when I go to the toilet because this country is VERY hot.

Modesty rules pre-existed Victorian times obviously, going all the way back to the time when Adam draped his junk with a fig leaf.

Bathroom privacy is very much in the news these days in other contexts as well. This is just to say that placement of toilets next to showers in the same private room does have something to do with the privacy afforded by that private room while unclothed. It would also explain why we don't put locked doors around our kitchens, despite them too having water supplies.

Also, when I was a kid I drank from the garden hose and I always kept my pants on.

Quoting Hanover

Modesty rules pre-existed Victorian times obviously, going all the way back to the time when Adam draped his junk with a fig leaf.

Abrahamic hang ups then. We all know about the Olympics. I just do not see this as a front runner. Important in modern society? Yes! I am looking under the hood though as I think there could possibly be more to this than meets the eye.

I recall reading about how samurai shat whenever they pleased and then people carefully gathered it up like some profound offering to give to their fields. Without a doubt Christian values have led to more prudish behavior.

How about this. I am wondering that today maybe with think of the act of defecating and bathing as a habit where it was once imbued with far more ritual and meaning than in the past. For women 'toilette' seems to hold a social significance compared to men. If we go back far enough was it held in higher regard and of higher importance for all? We are animals so territory marking may be something worth considering here?

I am 100% riffing here. Just want to see what ideas people can come up with.

Quoting I like sushi

How about this. I am wondering that today maybe with think of the act of defecating and bathing as a habit where it was once imbued with far more ritual and meaning than in the past. For women 'toilette' seems to hold a social significance compared to men. If we go back far enough was it held in higher regard and of higher importance for all? We are animals so territory marking may be something worth considering here?

I think there is a reason that feces is instintively foul, which likely relates to it being generally unhealthy waste, although my dog doesn't seem as offended by it and considers it a bit of a treat. She will vomit after eating it though, so maybe it's an intelligence thing as well.

I suspect that various traditions treat the act of defacation with differing levels of holiness. I beleive Judaism has a prayer to recite after a good shit. Perhaps some also pray for a good shit, particularly after a long haitus.

I can't really remember what we were talking about, but maybe something to do with why a toilet is so close to the tub. I can see how a romantic tryst in the bubble bath would be enhanced by the convenience of being able to take a massive immediately thereafter, allowing you to jump back in the suds for another round before getting the shivers. If a cooler of Budweiser were nearby, I think we might have perfection.

Quoting I like sushi

I am interested in the subconscious aspects here in relation to secular and non-secular rituals.

I suppose my thought is that the non-secular isn't so different from the secular here -- the ritual of cleansing, of dealing with our animal side within the confines of social expectation, seems difficult to distinguish from the anthropological angle.

All cultures have various rituals surrounding the body, and in this sense I think that toilets are anthropologically interesting.

The reason I'm hesitant with "ablution" is that you're drawing a distinction between secular/non-secular, whereas I'd say the ritual is about the same -- just with different words and beliefs.

Quoting I like sushi

Abrahamic hang ups then.

It actually predates that:

Reply to I like sushi Ask yourself: are you reluctant to use a trough urinal in a busy public toilet? Do you feel inhibited in that setting? What sort of risk do you perceive? Do you require some sort of partition between individual urinals? Do you use a toilet stall to urinate? Just how pee-shy are you? Does it bother you if other men speak to you (about anything) in a public toilet? Do you wash your hands after urinating? Do you use a piece of paper to pull open the public toilet door when you leave? How clean does a public toilet have to be for you to feel OK about using it?

There are several good films and books on the history of toilets. Here's an interesting one from England: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ftazg

AI, which never toilets itself whether it's full of shit or not says:

AI AI AI:The history of the toilet spans millennia, evolving from basic pit latrines to modern flushing systems. Early civilizations like the Sumerians and those in the Indus Valley used pit toilets and rudimentary sewage systems. Over time, toilets evolved into chamber pots and later, "garderobes," which were enclosed rooms with a seat and a hole leading to a pit or cesspool. The first flushing toilet was designed in 1596 by Sir John Harrington, but it wasn't until the 19th century that flushing toilets became more widespread, thanks to advancements like the siphon system by Thomas Crapper.

I remember reading a book about bathrooms in a bookstore back in the 60s which was about the architecture standards and requirements of bathrooms. Like, precisely how high should a toilet bowl be? How far off the floor should the rim of a urinal be, and how best to prevent splattering? Plumbing requirements, sanitary issues, how many toilet stalls and sinks in public facilities (like college arenas, concert halls, airports, etc.)

Worth noting: about 1/3 of the Indian population practice outdoor excretion (because they have no alternative). There are numerous disadvantages to having several hundred million people shitting outside -- poor sanitation, disease transmission, bad aesthetics, safety risks (for women, particularly), etc.

One thing about the modern toilet and bathroom: whether public or private, a high level of industrialization is needed to produce, transport, and install all of the utilities and equipment in several hundred million bathrooms. This wasn't possible until very recently.

Cities are still working on the problem of handling the huge volume of sewage that we produce: Chicago, for instance, is doing a decades long project to build deep storage tunnels and surface reservoirs to hold back 17.5 billion gallons of sewage when it rains. Without the system, a normal rain storm results in dumping a lot of untreated sewage into the Chicago "sanitary canal" which eventually ends up in the Mississippi River.

Reply to BC The physics of the toilet is also fascinating. The sudden release of water from the tank causes the pressure build up and release and you get that classic flush. If you were to take a large bucket of water and dump it in the bowl, you could create the flush effect without flipping the handle.

A partially empty tank from too frequent a flush results in that disappointing non-flush we all know of.

I would assume if your bladder burst and copius amounts of urine flooded past your loins, it would be theoretically possible to gain the flush hands free, the ambition of every schoolboy. I say boy, not girl, because girls curiously have less interest in such things. No idea why that is.

Reply to Hanover All important observations! I have a high efficiency toilet which empties the bowl with 5 quarts of water, much less than inefficient toilets. The bowl can also be emptied by rapidly pouring 32 oz of water from a height of 3 feet (+/-) above the bottom of the bowel.

Part of this is owning to gravity and fluid dynamics (don't ask me what, exactly). I wonder what role the shape of the bowl plays. Are some shapes more efficient than others?

A horse might be able to produce a flush by urinating into a toilet bowl. However, while you can lead a horse into the bathroom, you can't make them urinate.

Reply to Hanover If you are looking for a cheap book to read in the toilet, Amazon is selling "The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money" by John Maynard Keynes for 39¢. Such a deal!