In a free nation, should opinions against freedom be allowed?

Wolfy48 May 20, 2025 at 17:50 4500 views 45 comments
I am a firm believer in freedom of thought, freedom of speech, and freedom of expression. People should be allowed to believe whatever they want, say whatever they want, and express themselves however they want. Obviously, that expression shouldn't extend to hurting others. As of right now, freedom of thought is safe, as I don't know of any current methods to read and erase thoughts of the average civilian. But freedom of speech and freedom of expression? I feel like both of these are currently under threat, openly in the polar east, and subtly in the polar west. In the East, censorship of dissenting voices is praised by both the government and the people of those nations, as it increases stability and government control. But it the West, it is different. People claim to want free speech, but it seems they only want that freedom to extend to people of the same opinion of them. Let me start this by being very clear: I DO NOT support nazism. But in Germany, it is illegal to throw up a nazi salute or speak the words "heil hitler". I agree that those words and actions represent terrible things, and if said seriously, should be condemned. But should the government be able to make it illegal? People are fine with it because it is widely agreed that the nazis were terrible. But is that not a gross violation of free speech? You are literally saying: "This kind of speech is bad, and is now illegal". What if that were applied to something else, like supporting racism? Racism is bad, I fully believe that, but the lines of what's "racist" can be blurred. I don't like racist people, but should they not be given a voice? If they're not hurting anyone, can you justify silencing them for having a dissenting opinion? If you can justify silencing racist people, can you really be mad at China for silencing gay people? It is my opinion that while I will judge you for being racist, I will still listen to your opinion and take it into consideration. EVERY opinion must be heard, not just the ones that agree with the majority. What if someone support slavery, or wants to enforce gender roles back into society? Is it ok to silence them? I still say no. EVERYONE, and I mean every single person of every background and with every opinion, has a voice, no matter how distasteful. So long as you are not hurting others, you should be allowed to express yourself however you want. Hate speech should be allowed. You may argue against this, but let me say this: "I hate nazis, and I want all nazis to die." You probably don't have much of an issue with me saying that. But what if I said "I hate black people, and I want all black people to die." You hopefully have an issue with me saying that. This is how it is with hate speech too. It only applies to some groups of people, with certain opinions. It is literally a targeted attack on people's ability to express opinions. A law that states "You can say and have this opinion, but not this one". Given, they are distateful and wrongful opinions being attacked, but that is still a violation of free speech. It feels fine for most people since it doesn't affect them, and they agree that nazis are bad. But what if one day YOU are part of the silenced group? How would you feel if one day YOU weren't allowed to express your opinion, just because the majority of people say that it's bad? I do not wish to defend nazis or racists, but I do wish to defend free speech. If they are wrong, let society and reason be the judge, not the law. I think that everyone should have a voice, and that freedom to speak your mind it what makes a country free and democratic. Ummm... anyways those are my thoughts on the matter, lemme know if you think that certain types of speech should be restricted, or if some opinions are bad enough that you can justify giving up free speech to silence them.

Comments (45)

Fire Ologist May 20, 2025 at 19:11 #989076
Hey Wolf,
There’s another thread here about this. My thought are here.

And I generally agree with you. Limiting any speech, by law, based on its content (meaning because you don’t like what it says) is the antithesis of a free society.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/988251

But the title of your OP here is a bit different. To protect freedom, should enslaving and oppressive speech be allowed? It’s like asking if we should be able to vote to change our government into a monarchy.

I think we have to say, yes. And rely on the powers of persuasive speech to win the day.

Or we simply are not free and will certainly be abused by the government.
Wolfy48 May 20, 2025 at 19:12 #989077
Reply to Fire Ologist

Thank you! I didn't see the other discussion
Wolfy48 May 20, 2025 at 19:18 #989079
"To protect freedom, should enslaving and oppressive speech be allowed? It’s like asking if we should be able to vote to change our government into a monarchy" -- Reply to Fire Ologist

The problem here is the nature of society. What is moral now may not be moral in the future, just as what was moral in the past is not moral now. As of right now, Democracy, Equality, and Freedom of speech are considered moral, hence why a democracy is the most moral form of government. But what if in the future society considers Domination, Loyalty, and Stability to be more moral? Can we judge and make moral decisions for a future society with different morals? Do we have the right to impose our morals on a future that may not share the same views? If so, do the people of the past have the right to impose their morals upon us? Morality shifts and changes based on time and location, and you have to take that into account when talking about politics and the society of the future. Between just going with the flow of morality, or trying to argue that we can impose our morals on the future, I personally don't know which is the right answer, perhaps that is something I should dive further into and form an opinion on.
Fire Ologist May 20, 2025 at 19:35 #989082
Quoting Wolfy48
What is moral now may not be moral in the future


And that is why today and into the future, we have to protect a society that can continue to make its own laws, to reflect its own changing values.

Democracy and the individual freedoms of self-government, it seems to me, are too obvious to ever really alter. Self-government will always be a facet of the better societies that will ever exist, from now on. And it can only be taken away from societies that have such freedom through bloodshed.

Live free or die. People who understand this mean it.
Wolfy48 May 20, 2025 at 20:10 #989085
Democracy and the individual freedoms of self-government, it seems to me, are too obvious to ever really alter -- Reply to Fire Ologist

You say that, but democracy fell in Greece, in Rome, in China, in Perisa, and in various other nations. Democracy has failed and turned into dictatorship many times, so is it really too obvious to be altered?
Fire Ologist May 20, 2025 at 20:16 #989089
Reply to Wolfy48
True. I just mean from this earth. People will always move towards or revert back to democracy now.

Even if the reversion starts with a prison riot.
Wolfy48 May 20, 2025 at 20:26 #989091
"People will always move towards or revert back to democracy now" -- Reply to Fire Ologist

Well, yes, but the same argument can be made that democracy will always crumble because of internal dissent and collapse into a dictatorship. History paints a cycle of political philosophies crumbling, not showing up for centuries, and then popping back up. For the record, I'm all for democracy, but it's inevitable that no nation can stay democratic forever. Or even exist forever.
flannel jesus May 20, 2025 at 20:35 #989092
In a free nation, long posts without paragraph breaks shouldn't be allowed
Fire Ologist May 20, 2025 at 20:37 #989093
Reply to Wolfy48
I agree with that too. Democracies legislate themselves into paralysis and bitter faction.

And today with the media rooting for sides, faction ing has become profitable both for corporations and for political parties.

But in the end, the best way to a better world has to be by consent of the governed or the factions will just fight for dominance and pick each other apart.

Common sense is always the undercurrent. Always will be. But without good leadership representing we commoners, anything is possible.
Wolfy48 May 20, 2025 at 20:43 #989094
"But without good leadership representing we commoners, anything is possible." -- Reply to Fire Ologist

I agree 100%, the issue is that good leadership isn't very common. People like to pick sides and factionalize. The media profits from this and stokes the fires, to the point where people choose leaders out of fanaticism or hatred of the other side, instead of based on what would be best for themselves and their country. As much as I wish for the situation to de-escalate as it has in the past, it's a very real possibility that hate festers and the factions manifest into a legit coup, or god forbid a civil war, as it has in the previously democratic states of the past.
Athena May 21, 2025 at 15:52 #989286
Quoting Wolfy48
I am a firm believer in freedom of thought, freedom of speech, and freedom of expression. People should be allowed to believe whatever they want, say whatever they want, and express themselves however they want.


:scream: I can not agree with that much freedom, for such freedom leads to anarchy, and because anarchy is not tolerable, it leads to a dictatorship and totaleran state. Especially not when the population is educated for technology but not educated about the virtues and principles of a liberal democracy.

Especially, freedom of expression is problematic because that can mean unacceptable acts of violence.

On the other hand, I have heard in India it is a given that when speaking of one thing, you speak of its opposite as well. If we also held this understanding, increased knowledge could get better results than what I see in the US today. Right now, too many people have very limited knowledge, and letting them loose is about like letting all the animals in a zoo loose.
Athena May 21, 2025 at 16:01 #989290
Quoting Fire Ologist
Common sense is always the undercurrent. Always will be. But without good leadership representing we commoners, anything is possible.


Ah, what is common sense? How does it become common?

How about a return to civics for high school students and health books that prepare first graders for civics in high school? Education for technology has manifested a nightmare for a nation that is supposed to stand for liberty and justice.

Thomas Jefferson believed that education was crucial for developing a virtuous and informed citizenry, essential for a functioning republic. He saw education as a means to improve both individual character and society as a whole, with morality being a key outcome. Jefferson emphasized that an educated citizenry would be able to make sound judgments about public affairs and participate effectively in democratic processes. AI
Wolfy48 May 21, 2025 at 16:06 #989292
"Right now, too many people have very limited knowledge, and letting them loose is about like letting all the animals in a zoo loose" -- Reply to Athena

So you wish to silence the uneducated? That seems very... uhhhh.... bad? No offense but to me everyone should have a voice, not just those you deem "educated"

"freedom of expression is problematic because that can mean unacceptable acts of violence"
-- Reply to Athena

Yes, for sure, but this is why I quickly specified that I only support the freedom of expression if it does not harm others

"Especially not when the population is educated for technology but not educated about the virtues and principles of a liberal democracy" -- Reply to Athena

Hm... I understand the viewpoint that unrestricted freedom leads to anarchy, but how can you simultaneously argue for liberal democracy and the restriction of speech? I support non-violent expression, and I feel like suppressing those with a different viewpoint than yourself is the OPPOSITE of a liberal democracy...

Wolfy48 May 21, 2025 at 16:10 #989294
"How about a return to civics for high school students and health books that prepare first graders for civics in high school?" -- Reply to Athena

I agree that education is good, and leads to better decisions, but that education should something that people are able to explore on their own to form their own opinions. If the education about the state is coming only from the state, that will bias people and will almost certainly result in an authoritarian state. If the state controls education, who has the education to control the state?

I just don't see the value in the point of "You are either taught to support what we want, or you are considered uneducated and silenced." Well, I do see the value if you're a dictator or a pervasive authoritarian state, but if you are standing for a liberal democracy, that really seems counter-intuituve.
J May 21, 2025 at 17:03 #989324
Quoting Athena
Right now, too many people have very limited knowledge, and letting them loose is about like letting all the animals in a zoo loose.


Well, most of the US "founding fathers" agreed with you. These from Hamilton:

"The body of people … do not possess the discernment and stability necessary for systematic government. To deny that they are frequently led into the grossest errors by misinformation and passion, would be a flattery which their own good sense must despise."

"The history of ancient and modern republics has taught [us]… that popular assemblies are frequently misguided by ignorance, by sudden impulses and [by] the intrigues of ambitious men."

Nonetheless, I'd respectfully suggest that the next couple hundred years of US history represented an attempt to find a way to further democracy without treating vast sections of citizens as if they were animals who ought to be caged. I doubt even Hamilton went that far. Just curious: In the metaphor you employ, who are the zookeepers?
Athena May 23, 2025 at 03:32 #989783
Quoting Wolfy48
So you wish to silence the uneducated? That seems very... uhhhh.... bad? No offense but to me everyone should have a voice, not just those you deem "educated"


I don't think I said the ignorant should be silenced. However, neither should ignorance be ignored.

"Especially not when the population is educated for technology but not educated about the virtues and principles of a liberal democracy" -- ?Athena

Hm... I understand the viewpoint that unrestricted freedom leads to anarchy, but how can you simultaneously argue for liberal democracy and the restriction of speech?


Please keep in mind, I argue for better education. That is how I argue for liberal democracy.
That goes with associating human ignorance with animals being unleashed from a zoo. At some point, Socrates explains our question should not be what is, but what should be. A liberal democracy coming out of the Enlightenment is a dream of what can be. We can not silence the ignorant, but we can encourage a remedy for ignorance, and we can work on manifesting a culture that is better than the one we have now.

I support non-violent expression, and I feel like suppressing those with a different viewpoint than yourself is the OPPOSITE of a liberal democracy...


What did I say that speaks of suppressing those with a different point of view? My goodness, there is so much I don't know; it would be foolish for me to act as though I can judge all things, and I should have the power to force my will on others.

Tonight, I called my local TV station to object to one-sided reporting of the conflict between Israel and Palestine. Excluding the opposite point of view at this time in our history threatens our freedom of speech. I have to call attention to this error from time to time, or our news station gets lazy and goes with the popular story and ignores the less available opposite side of the story. I must compliment our local news because in the past, they have put in the extra effort when I have objected to the exclusion of the other side.

As Obama said a couple of weeks ago, you and I have to do something if we want to keep the great country we inherited. Restricting our political activity to our duty to vote is not enough. If the masses are left ignorant, they will make bad decisions, and that can destroy the democracy with liberty that we inherited. Our local newspaper was called the Register Guard because back in the day, reporters thought it was their duty to keep us well informed, so we could make good decisions. That will not happen if we don't ask for it.
Tom Storm May 23, 2025 at 04:03 #989786
Quoting Wolfy48
People should be allowed to believe whatever they want, say whatever they want, and express themselves however they want.


I don't have strong views on this. Americans seem really activated by discussions about freedom. I am sympathetic to some forms of censorship. I like the idea of outlawing hate speech. We can't allow people to scream out "fire!" in a crowded theatre - we know what stampedes do.

Quoting Wolfy48
I understand the viewpoint that unrestricted freedom leads to anarchy, but how can you simultaneously argue for liberal democracy and the restriction of speech? I support non-violent expression, and I feel like suppressing those with a different viewpoint than yourself is the OPPOSITE of a liberal democracy...


Liberal democracy is more than free speech, in the USA, say, it is also responsibility and:

Free and fair elections: Citizens elect representatives at local, state, and national levels.

Rule of law: Laws apply equally to all individuals, including government officials.

Separation of powers: The government is divided into executive (President), legislative (Congress), and judicial (Supreme Court) branches.

Protection of civil liberties: The Constitution (especially the Bill of Rights) protects freedoms like speech, religion, and the press.

Checks and balances: Each branch of government can limit the powers of the others to prevent abuse.

Do you believe strongly in all of these?
Athena May 23, 2025 at 04:10 #989787
Quoting Wolfy48
I agree that education is good, and leads to better decisions, but that education should something that people are able to explore on their own to form their own opinions. If the education about the state is coming only from the state, that will bias people and will almost certainly result in an authoritarian state. If the state controls education, who has the education to control the state?

I just don't see the value in the point of "You are either taught to support what we want, or you are considered uneducated and silenced." Well, I do see the value if you're a dictator or a pervasive authoritarian state, but if you are standing for a liberal democracy, that really seems counter-intuituve.


Oh please, no one is going to look for something they know nothing about. That is not possible. When is the last time you went into a store and bought the best thing a human being can have, given you don't even know it exists or is needed?

Ask people what the best virtues are. I would be surprised if many people named even one virtue. I think young people may not know what a virtue is, and you tell me they should explore this information on their own. It ain't going to happen until they know what virtues are and why they are important.

Can you name 10 characteristics of democracy? In my experience, asking people to do that results in them being very angry with me. I would not know the characteristics of democracy if I didn't have the grade school Democracy Series textbooks. I found these books in a bookstore because I knew we once taught our national values, and I looked for a book explaining them. :lol: That put me on a life path I was not expecting.

No, no the education I am talking about does not bias people. We used the Conceptual Method of education. Teachers were told not to pay too much attention to names and dates, but rather to focus on concepts. Under this system, the student may totally disagree with the teacher and get a good grade based on their understanding of the concept.

We taught children HOW to think, not WHAT to think. However, with education for technology, knowing the right answer has nothing to do with a concept, and it is the only way to get a high grade, because all answers are only right or wrong. And boy, does this education lead to belligerent people! And with Bush Jr.'s No Child Left Behind Act, teachers were preparing children to pass the test so their school wouldn't lose funding. That is what makes the US score very low on education when compared to the rest of the world. We replaced the Conceptual Method with the Behaviorist model.

The behaviorist model, or behavioral learning theory, suggests that learning occurs through interactions with the environment, primarily through conditioning (reinforcement and punishment). It emphasizes observable behaviors and external stimuli over internal mental processes. Key figures associated with this model include John B. Watson, B.F. Skinner, and Ivan Pavlov. AI


For years, we have taught children as we train dogs. That justifies your concern. That is why I am always trying to talk about education! Teaching a child how to think is different from the Military Industrial Complex education we have had since 1958.
Janus May 23, 2025 at 05:07 #989799
Reply to Fire Ologist To agree democratically to abolish democracy seems like a performative contradiction. When I elect a party different to the one you want I haven't taken away your freedom, and your party can always win the next election. But a democratic vote to abolish democracy, if it were not supported by everyone, would illegitimately abolish the freedom of those who opposed it. If absolutely everyone agreed to abolish their freedom then it might be okay, but then what about those yet to reach voting age?
Fire Ologist May 23, 2025 at 13:21 #989843
Quoting Janus
To agree democratically to abolish democracy seems like a performative contradiction. When I elect a party different to the one you want I haven't taken away your freedom, and your party can always win the next election.


I was just pointing out that a free society could all agree to hold a vote to elect one final dictator as leader, and vote to abolish the constitution. That would be insane, and (most likely) never happen, but it is legally possible.

Quoting Janus
If absolutely everyone agreed to abolish their freedom then it might be okay


Yeah, that was my point. Although it would be nuts, there is nothing in the constitution of a free democratic society preventing it from electing a king.

When one party loses, that’s not taking away freedom. Whatever one side does can be undone after the next election, because the people remain free. That is precisely why free speech is so important. We need politicians and voters to be free to criticize and campaign against the sitting government.

Free speech, and all that it means, is a cornerstone to all other freedom.

All government limits freedom. Government is a necessary evil - necessary because people limit other people’s freedom too, so we need the rule of law and police and the elected leaders to keep ourselves a coherent society. But it’s an evil, because bureaucracy and government will always limit freedom stupidly, unfairly at times, and wastefully and expensively (taxing me takes away my power, but again, necessary evil so we can have any government).

I’ve been hearing most of my life of how the conservative parties are facist and seek to take away freedom. Reagan, Bush 2, and Trump have all meant the end of democracy. Seems a lot of people think that if their party loses, the other party is merely taking away all freedom. I say win the arguments and reverse things in the next election. Every time the other party wins, it’s not a military coup.

The fear spread by claiming the other party wants to permanently take away freedom is propaganda mostly to help defeat that party in an election. It’s unfortunate our leaders say that, and unfortunate so many people fall for it.

We all have to guard and protect our freedom and our constitution. But telling people what they can and can’t say, that is the opposite of protecting our freedom.

Someone says something ignorant, like a racist does, or a communist does, we should be free to tell them they are idiots. We should not make laws that tell all of us what to say. Plus, people are people - we need to hear what they say to know who we are dealing with. If we limit public speech, the badness just goes underground where it can boil like a volcano waiting for something to allow it to erupt. Let’s let all the assholes speak their minds and hold rallies. So we know who they are, what they think, and then work out publicly how best to deal with them.

Freedom of speech is absolutely bedrock, as well as fragile. That’s why I love it when I hear stuff I totally disagree with. I know that I’m hearing a brave person speaking their mind at least, and keeping free speech alive and loud.
Leontiskos May 24, 2025 at 04:01 #989992
Quoting Janus
To agree democratically to abolish democracy seems like a performative contradiction. When I elect a party different to the one you want I haven't taken away your freedom, and your party can always win the next election. But a democratic vote to abolish democracy, if it were not supported by everyone, would illegitimately abolish the freedom of those who opposed it. If absolutely everyone agreed to abolish their freedom then it might be okay, but then what about those yet to reach voting age?


Unless you want to say that democratic votes require unanimity, they do not illegitimately abolish the freedom of those who voted differently.* In a majoritarian democracy a majority consensus is required; in a super majority democracy a super majority consensus is required; in a unanimous democracy a unanimous consensus is required. There is simply no reason why a democratic consensus must be unanimous in order to be valid. I would say that if a democracy cannot be democratically disbanded then it is not a democracy at all. But of course democracies can be democratically disbanded, in most cases according to the formal rules of the democracy itself.

If a democracy votes to disband itself, then the last act of that democracy is the act of disbanding. The act of disbanding is a democratic act. There is no performative contradiction here; there is just a majority of people who decide to order their political arrangement differently.


* In all likelihood you are conflating democracy with liberalism and particularly with a governmental defense of natural rights. But the idea of unalienable rights is not democratic - it does not flow from democracy. In fact it is undemocratic in the sense that it places a constraint on the democratic principle. Democratic rights are always alienable.
Tzeentch May 24, 2025 at 04:15 #989994
'Dangerous opinions' to citizens are what running with scizzors is to toddlers. The grown-ups in government must protect us against the dangerous opinions!

No, but in all seriousness, there's scarcely a more iliberal thought than the various iterations of the 'dangerous opinions' argument.

If you don't believe citizens themselves are capable of telling right from wrong, then what's the point of a free society in the first place? Why argue for a free society if one believes citizens are essentially adult children that need to be nannied by the state about what to think, say and do?
SophistiCat May 24, 2025 at 18:58 #990052
Quoting Leontiskos
If a democracy votes to disband itself, then the last act of that democracy is the act of disbanding. The act of disbanding is a democratic act. There is no performative contradiction here; there is just a majority of people who decide to order their political arrangement differently.


The performative contradiction is in performing a democratic act by someone who perforce rejects democracy.
flannel jesus May 24, 2025 at 19:03 #990053
Reply to SophistiCat it's only as much a performative contradiction as someone who is anti violence using violence to protect themselves from other violence, it seems to me.

If you want a dictatorial monarchy, and the only way to achieve a dictatorial monarchy is to vote for it, that seems like an acceptable action towards that end.
SophistiCat May 24, 2025 at 19:06 #990054
Quoting flannel jesus
it's only as much a performative contradiction as someone who is anti violence using violence to protect themselves from other violence, it seems to me.


That would indeed be a performative contradiction, without additional qualifications of what "anti-violence" entails in this context.
Leontiskos May 24, 2025 at 19:08 #990055
Quoting SophistiCat
The performative contradiction is in performing a democratic act by someone who perforce rejects democracy.


But why assume they reject democracy? Maybe they say, "I think democracy is the wrong system for our nation; I will vote against it; I hope the vote succeeds and the nation is no longer democratic; if the vote does not succeed I will abide by the decision."

To say that it is a performative contradiction for a society to vote itself out of democracy is to reify a democracy into a being of its own. The reification is fictional; the democracy does not destroy itself; rather, citizens are opting for a different form of government.

Given that democracies can legally disband themselves via amendments to the legal charter, do you think that provision means that the charter is itself self-contradictory? Surely there is a difference between, say, legally disbanding a contract and illegally disbanding a contract. One can honor the terms of a contract while simultaneously seeking that it be dissolved.
flannel jesus May 24, 2025 at 19:21 #990057
Quoting Leontiskos
I think democracy is the wrong system for our nation


that's what rejecting democracy means...
Fire Ologist May 24, 2025 at 20:11 #990061
Quoting Athena
How about a return to civics for high school students


Hey Athena - yes, education goes hand in hand with political freedom.

You can't truly have one of them without truly having the other.

If the things your are taught are controlled and censored, you don't really get an education for sake of your own mind, but instead get indoctrination to control your mind, and so no freedom. If you are not educated, you can't easily identify and sift through your choices, to make a truly free choice.
And if you are not free in the first place, you can't seek to learn the things you alone can identify need to be learned.

Freedom demands we learn more. Learning more demands that we free ourselves and build a freer, more self-determining, mind.
Athena May 26, 2025 at 15:34 #990373

Quoting Fire Ologist
Hey Athena - yes, education goes hand in hand with political freedom.

You can't truly have one of them without truly having the other.

If the things your are taught are controlled and censored, you don't really get an education for sake of your own mind, but instead get indoctrination to control your mind, and so no freedom. If you are not educated, you can't easily identify and sift through your choices, to make a truly free choice.
And if you are not free in the first place, you can't seek to learn the things you alone can identify need to be learned.

Freedom demands we learn more. Learning more demands that we free ourselves and build a freer, more self-determining, mind.


You said that so well. I wish schools had statues or at least a picture of the Statue of Liberty to keep the connection between learning and liberty alive. She holds a torch for the enlightenment that comes with learning, and in her other hand is a book.

However, today we also need a reminder of what good moral judgement has to do with liberty and justice. Education for technology is like Pandora's box. We have high school boys who can make bombs, but also who can not manage their emotional/social experience. And the sexual scene has pushed everything over the edge of insanity, with good Christians insisting they don't want anyone teaching "their children" morals, thinking only of their own children and not the thousands of young people who are also growing up in our schools. Children who need guidance because we were not born knowing good from evil (concepts), nor are we born with the thinking skills to have good judgment.

We must understand we can not Quoting Wolfy48
I am a firm believer in freedom of thought, freedom of speech, and freedom of expression.
without preparing the young for this freedom.
That surely leads to appearing to prove the Christian notions of Satan and being born in sin and the evil nature of humans. We must replace such mythology with the science of human nature and the humanities to have good moral judgment and not superstition and anarchy leading to chaos and destruction.





Athena May 26, 2025 at 16:21 #990378
Quoting Wolfy48
But freedom of speech and freedom of expression?



What you are saying is like starting a fire in August and walking away.

I am a woman, and as such, I am strongly against media and games of violence and especially violence against women, such as the offensive games I am offered when I attempt to play solitary online, where females are chained to a wall and struggling to get loose. How is that not condoning the voyeuristic behavior and feeling, that some people have when imagining such an act, and what is to stop someone from taking this a step further when we have socially condoned what should be taboo.

On the other hand, I have read some awful stuff in history books, such as tortures and horrific ways of killing people that have been used in the past. :rofl: I was feeling very superior to a male friend who was enjoying a violent TV show, until I realized what I was reading in a history book was worse. I think it would be very wrong to sanitize history.

Now, back to the question, how can we have media with totally unacceptable behavior and not trigger some people to go from voyeurism to a real-life experience? Should we ignore that some mentally unstable people are triggered to act on taboo impulses?

In a class about personal power, I watched a big, tough biker break down in tears when he explained his violent past and how this is a socially motivated behavior because that is what big, bad bikers do. Today, thanks to our misguided freedom of speech, we have policemen who are no better than the criminals. We are teaching that this is what powerful men, manly men, sexy men do. It is how to be a good man and a good Nazi or biker, or soldier, or whatever. This is your wildfire and our social failure to keep the fire under control. That is a failed civilization because of the growing number of poorly socialized people.
Athena May 26, 2025 at 18:45 #990392


Quoting Wolfy48
In a free nation, should opinions against freedom be allowed?
Wolfy48


I very strongly appreciate the importance of your question. Making something like eating your neighbor's children taboo may be preferable to laws. For those of us who value liberty, we may prefer taboos over laws because a taboo prevents undesirable actions better than laws.

An authority on this is Edward T Hall

Edward T. Hall's concept of "cultural taboos" refers to the unspoken rules, norms, and behaviors that are considered unacceptable or forbidden within a particular culture. These taboos often operate below the level of conscious awareness, shaping our interactions and understanding of social situations. Hall's work highlights how these taboos can create misunderstandings and challenges in intercultural communication. https://www.google.com/search?q=Edward+t+hall+taboos&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=edward+t+hall&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggAEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg7MgkIARBFGDkYgAQyBwgCEAAYgAQyBwgDEAAYgAQyBwgEEAAYgAQyBwgFEC4YgAQyBwgGEAAYgAQyDQgHEC4YrwEYxwEYgAQyBwgIEAAYgAQyBwgJEAAYgATSAQoxOTUwNmowajE1qAIIsAIB8QUEZpQ7pA-1Jg&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


If a genie granted me a wish, I would wish everyone had a good understanding of taboos, why they are important and how they work.
Taboos are social prohibitions or avoidances, often with religious or cultural origins, that prevent individuals from engaging in certain actions or behaviors considered harmful or offensive. They function to maintain social order, protect individuals and groups, and reinforce group identity and cohesion.
Elaboration:
Social Control:
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Taboos help regulate behavior by setting boundaries on acceptable actions and expressions.
Protection:
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Taboos can protect individuals from dangerous or undesirable situations, either physical or emotional. For example, a taboo against eating certain foods could protect a community from food poisoning. more at https://www.google.com/search?q=the+function+of+a+taboo&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgBEEUYOxjCAzIJCAAQRRg7GMIDMgkIARBFGDsYwgMyCQgCEEUYOxjCAzIJCAMQRRg7GMIDMgkIBBBFGDsYwgMyCQgFEEUYOxjCAzIJCAYQRRg7GMIDMgkIBxBFGDsYwgPSAQkzMDk1ajBqMTWoAgiwAgHxBdBF3mbb-qQD&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Fire Ologist May 26, 2025 at 22:29 #990413
Quoting Athena
we also need a reminder of what good moral judgement has to do with liberty and justice.


Agree. Some basic agreement on some basic moral/ethical norms for the sake of everyone having a society, and everyone having a safe place for the next generation to learn how to be free and how to contribute to our society.

Your right, Lady Liberty is a great lesson, she gives off her own light. The statue itself was a gift, freely given, as a thank you for our contributions to freedom in the world. Lots of good lessons worth remembering and teaching.
Athena May 26, 2025 at 23:34 #990417
Reply to Fire Ologist Do you agree that means returning to education for good moral judgment and ending leaving moral training to the Chruch?

I keep harping on this because our present reality seems to prove the Bible right about the end of times. We are technologically smart but not wise. Bad decisions have gotten us here, and this is not the first time people have believed they were living through the end of time. We have some choices: ignorance and immorality, or education and using reason to make moral decisions.

Bottom line, I think we need to talk about morality and why education is essential to our liberty. I have been harping about this for many years. Forums may stress our rights, but our rights require a sense of responsibility, and young people do not seem to want responsibility, only rights. We need to grow up and hopefully grow in wisdom.
Red Sky May 27, 2025 at 15:29 #990542
This post has gone in some different directions, so I would just like to state my opinion on a matter.
I believe that the government should not be able to hinder our freedom of speech or expression.
This is not to say that people should be able to do anything they want, but there should not be a systematic response from the government.
Instead I think that societal pressure could be of help. Especially because societal pressure can be overcome.
In this way a person who screams something inappropriate such as the aforementioned "Heil Hitler" is put down by society. On the other hand a person who supports 'Black Lives Matter' or 'Transgender Rights', while facing opposition has a chance of overcoming it.
The point is not to be perfect from the beginning, but to have the potential for both freedom and control of some of the chaos.
Of course this system is bound to face corruption. However, I believe that the systems with the most room for corruption have the most potential for good. This is because it is not based on imperfect law which always seems to have some loophole, but our society and human morals which has the potential to handle all problems.
Wolfy48 August 19, 2025 at 19:10 #1008266
"In this way a person who screams something inappropriate such as the aforementioned "Heil Hitler" is put down by society. On the other hand a person who supports 'Black Lives Matter' or 'Transgender Rights', while facing opposition has a chance of overcoming it." --Reply to Red Sky

I fully agree with this! I think that the government being able to limit freedom of speech is a very quick road to oppression. Society should be the voice of reason, pushing down on unpopular opinions. There are issues, such as if the majority is racist, than racial justice groups get put down, but that can change with time. Morals and standards are constantly shifting with time period and geography, and what is ok today might not be tomorrow, and what is illegal today might one day be common sense. So yes, I agree that society should decide what people can and can't say, not the government.
L'éléphant September 08, 2025 at 02:35 #1011868
@Wolfy48
Free speech, as conceived by the writers of the law, is never absolute. Nothing is absolute in any given society. Your conception of free speech is naive and disruptive.
A good discussion of an ethics topic is one that wants the greater good to surface. Among the competing opinions, the goal is to come up with what is the moral obligation given the freedom to speak our minds.

I am glad that there is a law prohibiting sexism, racism, and bullying at work. I'm glad because I don't have the desire -- through my own conscience, through education at home and at school, and through my interaction with other people -- to make people feel inferior, feel threatened by my presence, or to make a place a toxic one. And I certainly do not wish others to spout toxic nonsense in the workplace.
I like sushi September 08, 2025 at 10:06 #1011892
Reply to Wolfy48 Everyone is free to do as they please within the limits of their capabilities.

The rest is just posturing.

Assuming you want a response that is a little less cutting than above I can tone it down to simply state that freedoms come with a weight of responsibility. If people abuse the hard earned freedoms they have they risk making said freedoms harder to defend in the long-term -- possibly short-term -- future.

If someone has strong opinions I oppose I would rather they speak up than go underground. If they get imprisoned for saying what they say, acting out their speech in certain ways or manners, then the freedom they had to state what they stated and act as they did comes with a price (as it always will to some degree).

Justice in the world is only apparent in how injustice is distributed. We praise and point out those who fall to he sword of injustices if we agree with them.
Astorre September 10, 2025 at 17:35 #1012218
Reply to L'éléphant

And I believe that a society that strives for constant liberation from anything restrictive and oppressive is liberated to the point of freedom from being
L'éléphant September 11, 2025 at 01:03 #1012273
Quoting Astorre
And I believe that a society that strives for constant liberation from anything restrictive and oppressive is liberated to the point of freedom from being

Acknowledging that we have a moral obligation -- which in itself is restriction, but not oppressive -- is what a moral agent is.
Wolfy48 September 25, 2025 at 19:05 #1015028
"I am glad that there is a law prohibiting sexism, racism, and bullying at work." -- Reply to L'éléphant

I am not. I am against all those things, but it is SOCIETY'S job to prevent them, not the government. Racism at work should get someone fired, not arrested or fined. The government telling people what they can and can't say is a very slippery slope. What is considered racism? If I say "All races are equal" Is that fine? If I say "Black people shouldn't get extra help from society" Is that racist? If what you say is so wrong that people are very offended, then the company can fire you. But the government? The government should not be able to punish people for having an opinion/
Ciceronianus September 25, 2025 at 19:30 #1015031
Reply to Wolfy48
I'm not sure what nation has laws making employment discrimination a criminal offense. Please let me know which does. Nor do I know of any jurisdiction in the U.S. that provides it's employment discrimination to hold an opinion. Making employment decisions because someone belongs.to a particular race or sex is different from merely holding an opinion, though.
Count Timothy von Icarus September 25, 2025 at 22:44 #1015075
Reply to Astorre

Quoting Astorre
And I believe that a society that strives for constant liberation from anything restrictive and oppressive is liberated to the point of freedom from being


D.C. Schindler makes this point in his cleverly labeled [I]Freedom From Reality: The Diabolical Nature of Modern Liberty[/I]. The second part of the title is clever too because he means "diabolical" in the original Greek context as the opposite of symbolical, a slip towards sheer multiplicity and potency.

Reply to L'éléphant

I think that's right, but I'd go a bit further and say that the very idea that core components of becoming fully actualized as a human being, such as being a good mother, a good citizen, a good priest, a good soldier, a good teacher, a good friend, neighbor, etc. are "restrictions" is presupposing a defective notion of liberty. Freedom has to be a freedom towards a truly good end or else it ultimately turns out to be arbitrariness, which is the opposite of freedom.

As Hegel demonstrates in the Philosophy of Right, freedom as sheer lack of constraint, taken to its limit, reveals itself to be contradictory. No choice is possible without lapsing into determinacy, which is itself seen as a lack of freedom. So, choice itself contradictorily becomes a negation of freedom.

Wolfy48 September 25, 2025 at 23:03 #1015082
"I'm not sure what nation has laws making employment discrimination a criminal offense. Please let me know which does" -- Reply to Ciceronianus

I couldn't say off the top of my head either, I was just stating that if there was, I wouldn't stand for it
baker September 28, 2025 at 13:40 #1015461
Quoting Wolfy48
certain types of speech should be restricted, or if some opinions are bad enough that you can justify giving up free speech to silence them.


I think the crucial point regarding all freedoms (of speech, religion, etc.) is that these freedoms were not instated out of some profound regard for humanity, or out of some profound conviction that all people and all religions etc. matter and are valid.

But rather, out of entirely pragmatic reasons: to get people to stop fighting for supremacy, because those fights caused a lot of collateral damage, civil unrest, and damage to business. If, at least legally, they're all equal, then they have no justification to fight for supremacy.

The greater good to be obtained from those freedoms isn't some humanist ideal, or solidarity, a sense of fraternity, but just plain absence of certain types of strife that are socially and economically disruptive.

And when looked at that way, it makes sense not to try to make much of the freedom of speech at all.
L'éléphant September 28, 2025 at 20:03 #1015510
Quoting Wolfy48
If what you say is so wrong that people are very offended, then the company can fire you.

Yes, that is actually the consequence. I don't think anyone has been jailed for offensive gestures and language. Unless it is an assault or murder.

I think you misunderstood the role of society and government. Government does sanction societal rules, forming it into a law. Enforcement is the key. A society may frown upon racism and sexism, but without punishment, such as lawful job firing, then no meaningful enforcement is in place.