[TPF Essay] Cognitive Experiences are a Part of Material Reality

Moliere June 01, 2025 at 17:25 3775 views 79 comments
By: @ucarr

Prelude

Cognitive Experiences are a Part of Material Reality

Quoting ucarr
The ache in the pit of your stomach was real, and so was the pounding of your heart. For these reasons, we go to the movies. The mind and its experiences are physically real. No brain, no mind.


Quoting philosch
The experience is real. That does not mean the characters in the movie are real. They are only real as constructs, not literally. There is no "real" wizard named Harry Potter with magical powers even though the movies about Harry Potter made you feel emotions and have real physical reactions. Unless of course you want to "fuzz" the meaning of "real" which brings us right back to why I responded to the post in the first place. Harry Potter exists as an imaginary character. Imaginary characters are by definition, NOT REAL. They do exist as mind constructs, not as literal objects. This means of course that existence and being "real" are not synonymous which is what I have been contending. It may be of more benefit to say there are different categories of existence as well as different types of "real".


It's now clear to me that going forward from here, it will be impossible to continue my argument without stepping into the bog of the “Material Vs Non-Material Debate.”

Existence Equals Material Reality

When I say that mental impressions of the material world are themselves material, I'm trying to say that mental impressions are a material link in a chain of material terms connecting them with the material world. At the beginning of the material chain, we have the material world. Next comes the five senses that translate material reality into neural circuits of charged particles that code for material reality within the brain. The following link is cognition, which is internalization of the material world within the brain as an analog simulation of said material world. After this comes reason, which forms judgments by a process of logic. Reason is the hard link to unpack. It’s the time element that turns the mind into a puzzle. Internalization of the material world into ideas of the mind involves a manipulation of time most curious.

The Time Element

In my walk of life supported by empirical experience of the world, I take many impressions of the material things I detect by way of my senses. Let’s imagine I visit a public garden maintained by the city. After many visits I conclude, “All roses have thorns.” This may or may not be true. The point here is that after many experiences of the material world of roses, I make a generalization about them within my mind. This generalization, as we know, is not materially present in the city garden. I can’t go there and view directly “an idea about all roses.” Given this reality, it’s natural for us to conclude “an idea about all roses” is non-material. We conclude it’s a non-material concept that inhabits the mind only.

What is the phenomenon that acts as a powerful support for the belief abstract concepts are non-material? This phenomenon is the time element. In making my numerous impressions of roses, I spent months assembling my collection. In my mind’s eye, I think about the many impressions of roses extending across several months of observations and “compress” that time into a timeless generalization: “All roses have thorns.” A timeless generalization encoded within the brain as neural circuits does indeed give an appearance of being non-material. How can something so unanalogous to its source be no less material than its source?

Emergent properties are known to be partially independent from their grounds because they have attributes and functions not present in their grounds. Chief among these distinct attributes and functions is intent. Intent is a function of the designing mind that thinks strategically about “that which is not yet but will be.” Again, we see the time element playing a pivotal role in creating the impression abstract thought is non-material. Abstract thought can be characterized as absential materialism. This is materialism that is about “that which is not yet but will be.” This is a more complex expression of time “manipulation” towards abstract generalization. It is cognitive-time- dilation of present action towards a strategically determined future material outcome.

Critical to absential materialism is the bi-conditional relationship between the supervenient emergent property: abstract thought, and the subvenience of the ground for the emergent property; the brain. They are a matched pair and there is one IFF there is also the other.

Just as the time compression of abstract thought makes mental constructs seem timeless, the time dilation of absential materialism makes intentional constructs seem immaterial. The time compression of abstract thought is to the time dilation of absential materialism as the discrete boundaries of the particle form are to the probability clouds of the waveform.

For the sake of clarification of my claim mental ideas are material, let me put “an idea about all roses” into the context of a chain of material terms extending from the material world: material world_senses_neural circuits_analog simulation_reason_“an idea about all roses.”

Let me take this chain of material terms and turn it into an expression by putting it into an equation: material world_senses_neural circuits_analog simulation_reason_“an idea about all roses.” = material reality. Therefore, by this reasoning, the chain of material terms, once placed within an equation, evaluates to “material reality.”

The main point expressed by the equation is this: there is a continuity of the material extending from the start, continuing through the middle, and concluding at the end.

There is no sudden, unexplained jump from material to non-material. If there were, the jump would have to be explained in order to maintain the validity of the logic of the chain. Such an explanation would have to show how material and non-material connect. Can such a connection be shown? Anyone attempting to establish logically that mental concepts based upon sensory impressions of the material world are non-material must show the transition from material to non-material and, critical to that demonstration, show how the two modes connect. Has anyone ever done this?

Premise – Showing how material connects with non-material entails proving non-material does not equal non-existence. Stated another way, showing how material connects with non-material entails showing that the non-material can be measured. If the non-material can be measured, then perhaps the measured expanse of a section of a non-material thing shares common ground with a section of a material thing. This overlap can be parsed as a Venn diagram and this would show, mathematically, how there can be a transition from non-material to material. If measurement and a Venn diagram were possible with the non-material, I think a proof of its causal link to the material would’ve been presented long ago.

As things stand currently, arguments for non-material existence are rooted in the inference of the non-material positioned within the gaps of information rendered by incomplete physics. Since a gap is a real-world stand-in for non-existence, I find such arguments unpersuasive.

Brain in a Vat

If the brain never receives sensory input from its reactions to the material world via the senses, does it have content? What’s the content of the brain in the total absence of sight, sound, touch, taste, and smell?

Might there be some type of neuronal activity that supports some type of pure thought? Would such pure thought arise from quantum fluctuations within the neuronal circuits? What might pure thought devoid of input from the five senses consist of? If we imagine pure thought devoid of input from the five senses nonetheless somehow codes for the material world, how could we know that stimulus for its encoding is non-material instead of material? The supreme challenge for non-materialism might be showing how a brain minus sensory input codes for non-material things that can be measured. Finally, this coding for non-material things that can be measured must not be inference to non-material things by way of measurement of gaps in physics’ knowledge of the world.

Negation Vs Affirmation

Since non-existence can’t share common ground with anything, not even itself (infinite negation), it can’t precede anything, not even itself. Picture an infinite, bi-directional spiral of negation. If the non-material can only be detected in relation to the material, then we have a suggestion of non-material being emergent from material. This converts non-material to quasi-non-material.

Existence, which shares common ground with all material things (infinite affirmation), cannot be preceded by non-existence, and therefore it has nothing prior to it. This tells us by the logic of the indirection of complexity (You can’t look at eternal existence directly; you can only infer it logically.) existence is eternal. Combining the infinite negation of non-existence with the infinite affirmation of existence, we get a picture of general existence equaling material reality.

Reality is Communal

The abhorrent thought of conducting an experiment of such total isolation as described above upon a newborn invokes the condemnation appropriate for a heartless act that equals a crime against humanity. Nothing existing (and no one) is totally alone.

Conclusion

Now I can return to my argument for understanding that cognitive experiences are a part of material reality.

Quoting ucarr
My goal in this conversation is to examine the question, "Does grounding a thing within existence add anything to its collection of attributes?”


My position, contrary to that of Meinong – he denies Existence Precedes Predication – answers, "yes" to the question. Affirming the existence of a thing places it within a context; the obverse of this is claiming a thing exists outside of an encircling context. I don't expect anyone to make this claim. Moreover, I claim that existence is the most inclusive context that can be named.[/quote]

Insuperable material context is the reality of existence. Connection, life, communication, and love are the meanings of existence.

Comments (79)

Jack Cummins June 07, 2025 at 09:32 #992670
I am surprised that this well written essay has not received attention. It may be for the same reason as the one on 'The Insides and Outsides of Reality', that there is so much being discussed in other threads. It is rather unfortunate that a thread on 'the phenomenological basis was started shortly after this essay. If anything, this may point to the way in which stringing these essays alongside main threads may have weakened the reception of the essays so far.

Back to the essay, while I don't subscribe to materialism generally, I think that the essay is written so well that I do find the argument within it to be strongly supported and worth reflecting upon.
Amity June 07, 2025 at 09:47 #992672
Quoting Jack Cummins
I am surprised that this well written essay has not received attention.


For me, it seemed to be an extension or continuation of a TPF thread. The participants revealed as @ucarr and @philosch. The links take you to: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/974795

Quoting Author
It's now clear to me that going forward from here, it will be impossible to continue my argument without stepping into the bog of the “Material Vs Non-Material Debate.


The essay looks to have been written by ucarr?

Either way, there are 13 essays in this event. This is on my decreasing list of those still to be read.
Responding to each one takes time. This is only the 7th June. The event started on the 1st.

Quoting Jack Cummins
Back to the essay, while I don't subscribe to materialism generally, I think that the essay is written so well that I do find the argument within it to be strongly supported and worth reflecting upon.


Perhaps you could expand on this. Perhaps choose a pertinent quote to support your assessment?
What will you be reflecting on?







Wayfarer June 07, 2025 at 10:53 #992685
Quoting Moliere
When I say that mental impressions of the material world are themselves material, I'm trying to say that mental impressions are a material link in a chain of material terms connecting them with the material world. At the beginning of the material chain, we have the material world. Next comes the five senses that translate material reality into neural circuits of charged particles that code for material reality within the brain. The following link is cognition, which is internalization of the material world within the brain as an analog simulation of said material world. After this comes reason, which forms judgments by a process of logic. Reason is the hard link to unpack. It’s the time element that turns the mind into a puzzle. Internalization of the material world into ideas of the mind involves a manipulation of time most curious.


[quote=Arthur Schopenhauer, The World as Will and Idea] materialism is the attempt to explain what is immediately given us by what is given us indirectly. All that is objective, extended, active—that is to say, all that is material—is regarded by materialism as affording so solid a basis for its explanation, that a reduction of everything to this can leave nothing to be desired (especially if in ultimate analysis this reduction should resolve itself into action and reaction i.e. Newtonian mechanics). But... all this is given indirectly and in the highest degree determined, and is therefore merely a relatively present object, for it has passed through the machinery and manufactory of the brain, and has thus come under the forms of space, time and causality, by means of which it is first presented to us as extended in space and... active in time. From such an indirectly given object, materialism seeks to explain what is immediately given, the idea (in which alone the object that materialism starts with exists), and finally even the will from which all those fundamental forces, that manifest themselves, under the guidance of causes, and therefore according to law, are in truth to be explained. To the assertion that thought is a modification of matter we may always, with equal right, oppose the contrary assertion that all matter is merely the modification of the knowing subject, as its idea. Yet the aim and ideal of all natural science is at bottom a consistent materialism. The recognition here of the obvious impossibility of such a system establishes another truth which will appear in the course of our exposition, the truth that all science properly so called, by which I understand systematic knowledge under the guidance of the principle of sufficient reason, can never reach its final goal, nor give a complete and adequate explanation: for it is not concerned with the inmost nature of the world, it cannot get beyond the idea; indeed, it really teaches nothing more than the relation of one idea to another.[/quote]

Amity June 07, 2025 at 10:59 #992686
Reply to Wayfarer Aw, come on. Say something. Not just provide another wall of text, huh?
Wayfarer June 07, 2025 at 11:06 #992687
Reply to Amity What I say is that the claim that ideas are themselves material - that appears to be the claim - must necessarily be circular, as 'the material' is itself an idea. Surely the keys which I'm depressing to register this idea are quite material, indeed tactile, but what is being registered are symbolic forms, namely the letters that form sentences and propositions. And those are not material in any meaningul sense, notwithstanding any attempt to depict them in terms of neurochemical signals. The key word there is 'signal', as a signal signifies, encodes and communicates meaning - just the kind of thing you will need to employ in the effort to demonstrate that thought, or anything else, is material in nature. Hence, Schopenhauer's quote, as both his and his predecessor Immanuel Kant had a keen insight into just this fact.

This segues into the whole question of intentionality, on the one hand - the fact that conscious acts are about or refer to something - and semiotics on the other, the fact that symbolic representation is fundamental not only to conscious expression, but to organic life on every level. And those intentional and symbolic dimensions of existence can't be feasibly depicted as being physical or material in nature.

So I'd turn the OP title upside down - material reality is actually an aspect of cognitive experience. Whatever we think or know is real occurs to us within experience.
Wayfarer June 07, 2025 at 11:18 #992688
Quoting Moliere
What might pure thought devoid of input from the five senses consist of?


Pure mathematics would come close, wouldn't it?

Aside from that, there are states known to contemplatives that are devoid of sensory content - known as 'contentless consciousness' in some lexicons.
Amity June 07, 2025 at 12:31 #992697
Quoting Wayfarer
So I'd turn the OP title upside down - material reality is actually an aspect of cognitive experience. Whatever we think or know is real occurs to us within experience.


Thank you. That seems to make sense. I don't see any problem with that. If we weren't here in body and mind, experiencing the world with as many senses available to us, then what would there be to think of?

Quoting Wayfarer
What might pure thought devoid of input from the five senses consist of?
— Author

Pure mathematics would come close, wouldn't it?


I don't know anything about the purity of maths. However, I imagine it to involve human activity or perception. This would entail input from the world. Joined with mental concepts?

Quoting Wayfarer
Aside from that, there are states known to contemplatives that are devoid of sensory content - known as 'contentless consciousness' in some lexicons.


That is something I have never experienced and can't really imagine. I would think to be conscious entails awareness of self and surroundings. Therefore, there are contents.

How would you know if there was no content to remember?

A dreamless sleep. The depth of anaesthesia. Hmmm...but if 'out of it' then we don't know what external stimulus our unconscious is reacting to? We are still alive. So conscious in some respect or level.

What does all of this matter?

Quoting Consciousness Without Content - Frontiers
Conclusions
The presence or absence of content-less state of consciousness has important implications for theories of consciousness (Metzinger, 2019). Many current conceptions of consciousness do not consider a content-less state of consciousness as a possibility and would need to be significantly altered if such a state is possible. We need novel paradigms to study and theorize about such states of consciousness without content or minimal phenomenal experience. A thorough understanding of the phenomenal properties of consciousness and its links to functional or neurophysiological aspects would enable us build a comprehensive theory of consciousness (Josipovic and Miskovic, 2020; Metzinger, 2020). The current paper suggests that focusing on the continuity of conscious experience may necessitate proposing consciousness without content a theoretical necessity. Such states of consciousness have been reported for a long time among practitioners in various contemplative traditions and there is a need to take them seriously to eventually understand consciousness. It also seems to be the case that realizing such an experiential state seem to change one’s life in a significant manner. Hence there is also a need to measure the impact of having experienced such a state in day to day life of those practitioners.


So much for theories.
I'm inclined to be sceptical. The mind is powerful and it can trick us into holding certain beliefs.
Any change can depend on an internal or external agent. Like chemicals. Natural or otherwise.
Clearly, I am not a student of Consciousness. It is fascinating but so is reality. And simple experience.
Like turning off the laptop to enjoy the sun and breeze.



Wayfarer June 07, 2025 at 12:36 #992700
Quoting Amity
That is something I have never experienced and can't really imagine. I would think to be conscious entails awareness of self and surroundings. Therefore, there are contents.

How would you know if there was no content to remember?


It is something quite well documented (paradoxically!) in Buddhist and Hindu sources. Thomas Metzinger whom you quote is quite the expert in scientific studies of such states of consiousness. As for pure mathematics, one doesn't need to be an expert in it - I'm certainly not - to appreciate that it is purely intellectual in nature. Applied maths, less so, but even there, the mind is navigating via conceptual acts that I don't believe are reducible to material or physical states (which is an inconvenient truth for the kind of materialism the OP wishes to advocate). As to whether you 'enjoy the sun and breeze', I should hope so, and good for you, but the OP has raised a philosophical question and that's what I responded to.
Amity June 07, 2025 at 12:42 #992703
Quoting Wayfarer
the mind is navigating via conceptual acts that I don't believe are reducible to material or physical states.


I think you are correct up to a point. I always imagine the mind like a spider's web, each strand sparking another. Synapses and neurones come to mind. Hah!
But sparks still require some underlying substance, no? Brain stuff.
I don't know. I just hope that the bright sparks continue to shine...
Amity June 07, 2025 at 12:44 #992704
Quoting Wayfarer
As to whether you 'enjoy the sun and breeze', I should hope so, and good for you, but the OP has raised a philosophical question and that's what I responded to.


Well, indeed. Philosophy reins.
Vera Mont June 10, 2025 at 16:46 #993469
Quoting Moliere
After this comes reason, which forms judgments by a process of logic. Reason is the hard link to unpack.

I don't think you can. The process may be envisioned through probes and coloured lights, but you can't go into the brain and follow the action close up.
Quoting Moliere
Given this reality, it’s natural for us to conclude “an idea about all roses” is non-material. We conclude it’s a non-material concept that inhabits the mind only.

It also inhabits some portion of the brain. It can be replaced by an improved version (Some roses have a strong scent, others are nearly scentless; some don't conform to the iconic image of a rose; some climb, while others grow as shrubs etc). Every time you upgrade a concept with more knowledge, it takes up a little more neural real estate. In the brain of a horticulturist specializing in roses, it takes up all the room once devoted to dogs, pies and birth-dates.
Quoting Moliere
How can something so unanalogous to its source be no less material than its source?

As you said, by compression. A volcano is bigger than a mouse but they're equally material and take up roughly the same storage capacity in conceptual format. All those roses take up several acres of garden, while the generalized image in your mind is only a few cells wide. Nevertheless, when someone next thrusts a thorned rose in your hand, you will receive a flood of brand new material impressions. These will eventually - in several minutes - be processed, rendered down to essentials, compressed and added to the rose file already stored in your brain.
Quoting Moliere
Intent is a function of the designing mind that thinks strategically about “that which is not yet but will be.”

Do you mean speculation and planning? They are operations, accessing, comparing, organizing data to anticipate future events and calculate probabilities. We only anticipate the future because we remember the many presents that became the past, even as we were experiencing it. We don't actually know whether we ourselves have a future and can only assume that the reality we know will continue. But the process of thinking about it is a physical activity in a material brain.
Quoting Moliere
This is a more complex expression of time “manipulation” towards abstract generalization. It is cognitive-time- dilation of present action towards a strategically determined future material outcome.

Do you mean doing something now in order to cause something to happen next?

Quoting Moliere
Critical to absential materialism is the bi-conditional relationship between the supervenient emergent property: abstract thought, and the subvenience of the ground for the emergent property; the brain. They are a matched pair and there is one IFF there is also the other.

You've totally lost me. I may ask the bot for directions.
No luck. Need a more sophisticted bot or Amity to dumb it down, or...
give up.




prothero June 10, 2025 at 19:30 #993489
Although I would agree that cognitive experiences are as "real" and as much (maybe more) a part of the world as atoms and other measurable physical phenomena[,adding the notion that they are "material" brings forth all types of problems and objections. It smacks a little of eliminative materialism and thus immediately raises objection from process philosophers, neutral monists, idealists and others. If you wish to assert that "matter" or the "physical" is not completely devoid of experience as is often and commonly assumed, that would be a different discussion
Vera Mont June 10, 2025 at 21:42 #993503
Quoting Wayfarer
What might pure thought devoid of input from the five senses consist of? — Moliere
Pure mathematics would come close, wouldn't it?

Where? How would a mind be able to think mathematical thoughts? We're not born with mathematics, but we are born with sense. How would pure mathematics express itself without a material brain to apprehend it through one or more senses and form it into equations?
Wayfarer June 10, 2025 at 22:08 #993507
Quoting Vera Mont
How would a mind be able to think mathematical thoughts?


Like this. (Closes eyes, adds two and two). While I agree we’re not born able to do mathematics, we’re born with the capacity to learn to do mathematics (a discipline I myself am not very good at.) But in any case, the upper reaches of pure mathematics are purely intellectual in nature, there’s nothing physical about them. It comprises the relations of concepts.
Vera Mont June 10, 2025 at 22:29 #993514
Quoting Wayfarer
While I agree we’re not born able to do mathematics, we’re born with the capacity to learn to do mathematics (

Not without your senses, your squishy, pink, very physical brain and someone to teach you or a whole lot of imagination. We have the capacity to make stuff up. Imaginary things are immaterial in themselves, but even naming them requires some physical process in a physical brain. They have no existence outside the hardware.
Wayfarer June 10, 2025 at 22:32 #993517
Reply to Vera Mont Meh. 'Physical' is just a catch-all term that people paint things with, so they think they know what they are or mean.
Vera Mont June 11, 2025 at 04:12 #993581
Reply to Wayfarer
Yeah, we find it useful. If you can manage without it, happy trails!
Wayfarer June 11, 2025 at 04:27 #993584
Reply to Vera Mont I couldn't manage without anything physical - food, for instance - but it in no way describes everything about existence. Like numbers, for instance: quite real, but not physical, even if they are represented by physical symbols.
Vera Mont June 11, 2025 at 04:54 #993593
Reply to Wayfarer
What makes you think they're real?
Wayfarer June 11, 2025 at 05:06 #993597
Reply to Vera Mont The fact that almost everything we do, insofar as it is mediated by technology, as this conversation is, is dependent on the effectiveness of mathematics.

This is a large and ancient debate in philosophy and epistemology. Broadly speaking, mathematical platonists believe that number is real, independently of any particular mind. Other schools of thought include fictionalism, formalism, and so on. I'm inclined to the platonist understanding. See What is Math (Smithsonian Magazine.)
Vera Mont June 11, 2025 at 05:23 #993600
Quoting Wayfarer
The fact that almost everything we do, insofar as it is mediated by technology, as this conversation is, is dependent on the effectiveness of mathematics.

And technology came about by.... no physical or material means? OK
Wayfarer June 11, 2025 at 05:37 #993601
Reply to Vera Mont Of course computer hardware is physical, but I would dispute that the software is. In fact the computer chip manufacturing process echoes Aristotle's form-matter dualism. Nowadays, chip manufacturing (an immensely complex technical process) is divided between the fabricators, who actually etch the chips in silicon, and designers, who work purely in logic, computer science and mathematics. So the fabricators are the 'matter', the designers the 'form'.

Now, of course, software has to interface with the physical layer, mediated by electrical signals - bits are after all on-off switches. But as to whether the software itself is physical or symbolic, I think that question is, at the very least, moot.
Vera Mont June 11, 2025 at 14:42 #993663
Quoting Wayfarer
Of course computer hardware is physical,

So is human hardware.
Quoting Wayfarer
In fact the computer chip manufacturing process echoes Aristotle's form-matter dualism.

I'm sure he would be gratified to hear that.
Quoting Wayfarer
But as to whether the software itself is physical or symbolic, I think that question is, at the very least, moot.

I have yet to see a program without the hardware, or a concept in the absence of a brain. But, who knows? I might encounter them in the ether, once I've sloughed off this all-too-material flesh.



Wayfarer June 12, 2025 at 02:01 #993833
Reply to Vera Mont Surely one of the astounding, if often taken-for-granted, aspects of the human imagination is the ability to peer into the realm of the possible-but-not-yet-existent and bring things back from it, to make them real. ( You’re looking at an example.)
Vera Mont June 12, 2025 at 02:12 #993836
Quoting Wayfarer
Surely one of the astounding, if often taken-for-granted, aspects of the human imagination is to peer into the realm of the possible-but-not.-yet-existent and bring things back from it.

Bring things back from the future? I don't believe anyone can actually do that until STNG. Imagination can project possible futures - it always has. Some time ago, a guy in a loincloth contemplated a fallen log and saw a boat; an old lady plaiting reeds for a roof wondered if the same technique could be made into something in which to carry fruit; long before that, a crow desiring grubs deep inside a hollow tree pictured a harpoon; yesterday, a bull terrier found a gap in the fence and began wedging his jaw between the boards to create a gate. Ideas are of the present; they are formed in physical brains.
Wayfarer June 12, 2025 at 02:43 #993838
Quoting Vera Mont
Bring things back from the future?


Not from the future - from the possible, from the realm of possibility. Today's techno-industrial culture is able to 'peer into the realm of the possible' and bring back things, like LLMs, that could scarcely have been conceived of until we actually started to use them. And where, precisely, does 'the possible but not actual' exist, if not in the mind?
Vera Mont June 12, 2025 at 04:04 #993846
Quoting Wayfarer
And where, precisely, does 'the possible but not actual' exist, if not in the mind?

Sure. Why not? It's all real and portable.
prothero June 12, 2025 at 22:03 #994030
Quoting Wayfarer
Not from the future - from the possible, from the realm of possibility. Today's techno-industrial culture is able to 'peer into the realm of the possible' and bring back things, like LLMs, that could scarcely have been conceived of until we actually started to use them. And where, precisely, does 'the possible but not actual' exist, if not in the mind?


Just being provocation. Plato's forms I believe were supposed to be more real that the shadows we gaze at in the cave. Whiteheads eternal objects are (potential but not actual). For some theists all possibilities exist in the mind of God. What value do you place on the potential versus the actual?
Wayfarer June 12, 2025 at 23:15 #994062
Quoting prothero
What value do you place on the potential versus the actual?


In the context of the discussion with Vera Mont, I was making the point that humans are able to envisage possibilities and then bring them about - which is the capacity that underlies the whole history of human invention, is it not? I’m also making the point that this suggests that the domain of possibility exceeds and is different to the domain of actuality - again, something which recent history abundantly illustrates.

In 1895 Lord Kelvin (William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin), a prominent British mathematician and physicist, and President of the British Royal Society, was widely quoted as saying "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." Simon Newcomb, a leading American astronomer and mathematician, likewise in 1903 (shortly before the Wright Bros flight) also stated that powered heavier-than-air flight was "unpractical and insignificant, if not utterly impossible. The New York Times, which published an editorial in October 1903 (just two months before the Wright flight) predicting it would take “one to ten million years” for humanity to develop an operating flying machine.



prothero June 13, 2025 at 01:27 #994115
Reply to Wayfarer I often think language is the thing that allows humans to engage in such abstract thought about the future and possibilities, to first imagine and then to create or bring them into reality. Other creatures clearly think, try to escape, vary their behaviors to the situation, plan for the future (store nuts for the winter0 and remember where they were put. Humans are not the only intelligent creatures but language which allows the flight of the imagination seems to be a critical feature of making the potential actual. Until potentials become actual though I wonder if they are "real" in some other metaphysical sense.
Wayfarer June 13, 2025 at 01:51 #994124
Reply to prothero Excellent question. To digress, as I so often do, there's an article I refer to , Quantum mysteries dissolve if possibilities are realities, which echoes an idea spelled out by Werner Heisenberg - that quantum states exist as unrealised potentialities, 'res potentia', one of which is actualised by the measurement process. It's the idea that the unmanifested or potential reality is actualised through measurement.
prothero June 13, 2025 at 02:12 #994132
Quoting Wayfarer
Excellent question. To digress, as I so often do, there's an article I refer to , Quantum mysteries dissolve if possibilities are realities, which echoes an idea spelled out by Werner Heisenberg - that quantum states exist as unrealized potentialities, 'res potentia', one of which is actualized by the measurement process. It's the idea that the unmanifested or potential reality is actualized through measurement.

Big debate in quantum theory, does the measurement discern the actual property (location, momentum) or does the measurement, observation, interaction (itself) create the actual from the range of potential possibilities. I following process think of these things as events and thus think there is no exact location or property until the interaction takes place. I do not think this process however is confined to human measurement and instrumentation but that these interactions (collapses, potential to actual) are occurring all the time between events and processes thus the more seemingly concrete macro world we largely live in and observe.

Wayfarer June 13, 2025 at 02:15 #994134
Quoting prothero
I do not think this process however is confined to human measurement and instrumentation but that these interactions (collapses, potential to actual) are occurring all the time between events and processes thus the more seemingly concrete macro world we largely live in and observe.


That's the process of decoherence. It explains why we don't ever find a cat that is at once dead and alive, but it still doesn't totally solve the observer problem. What interests me in this context is the role of observation in the actualisation of potential.
prothero June 13, 2025 at 02:29 #994141
Reply to Wayfarer I don't see the observer (human I presume) interaction or measurement as being any different than all the interactions that are occurring all the time in nature. Why would they be?
We agree on the way our minds structure and interpret reality for us, we disagree on to what degree we create reality external to our minds (seemingly consequential for you, for me just an effect on our understanding fairly trivial as to its effect on the external world itself)..
Wayfarer June 13, 2025 at 02:49 #994153
Reply to prothero You mean, the in itself, right?
prothero June 13, 2025 at 02:58 #994156
Reply to Wayfarer I think another area of disagreement is our access to the "ding an sic}. You seem to think we are pretty much excluded from Knowledge about it. I don't envision us as cut off in that way, we arise from the world, we are embedded in the world, we have to navigate it to survive and thus I think our "representation" is pretty accurate. Just as subjective experience is as much part of nature (and philosophy) as scientific investigation, we are part of nature not isolated from it..
Wayfarer June 13, 2025 at 04:12 #994167
Reply to prothero many deep questions involved. I’ll revert to my initial post - material reality is an aspect of cognitive experience.

//although I will mention the title of the Whitehead article I mentioned yesterday, which I believe is a quote from the man himself - ‘ Apart from the Experiences of Subjects There Is Nothing, Nothing, Nothing, Bare Nothingness’,//
prothero June 13, 2025 at 12:37 #994213
Quoting Wayfarer
//although I will mention the title of the Whitehead article I mentioned yesterday, which I believe is a quote from the man himself - ‘ Apart from the Experiences of Subjects There Is Nothing, Nothing, Nothing, Bare Nothingness’,//


Ah, yes, but for whitehead every event (actual occasion) is a subject onto itself, there are no vacuous entities. He does not mean just humans' and .higher forms of life. :grin: Isolated quotes lack context.
Wayfarer June 13, 2025 at 12:57 #994215
Reply to protheroI know they do, but the article from which that line was taken was very detailed — many thousands of words — and it spells out what that remark means in considerable depth.

I understand Whitehead's point, which is made quite explicit in that sentence: that there are no objects that exist in their own right, apart from or independent of any subject. I also understand that, for Whitehead, subjects are not necessarily human — or even organic — but are what he calls ‘actual occasions of experience’, which are the fundamental units of reality. So his aim is to restore subjectivity — the subject — which had been excluded or bracketed out by post-Cartesian dualism. He seeks to disclose subjectivity as a fundamental constituent of existence.

I understand and respect that project, but I would say I’m approaching the same issue from a different orientation. I’m criticizing the notion that objects possess inherent existence independently of any mind, as well — but whereas Whitehead’s approach is ontological (concerned with the constituents of being), the approach I’m exploring is epistemological (concerned with the conditions of knowing). That’s why I align more closely with a Kantian perspective.

While both philosophers are deeply engaged with the relationship between mind and world, Kant approaches it by asking how the mind structures experience and knowledge, whereas Whitehead approaches it by proposing that the world itself is composed of proto-subjective events or ‘prehensions’ at every level of reality.

But I'm open to considering it in more detail. And also exploring parallels between Whitehead and other pan-experientialist approaches.
prothero June 14, 2025 at 00:42 #994358
Quoting Wayfarer
but whereas Whitehead’s approach is ontological (concerned with the constituents of being), the approach I’m exploring is epistemological (concerned with the conditions of knowing). That’s why I align more closely with a Kantian perspective.

While both philosophers are deeply engaged with the relationship between mind and world, Kant approaches it by asking how the mind structures experience and knowledge, whereas Whitehead approaches it by proposing that the world itself is composed of proto-subjective events or ‘prehensions’ at every level of reality.


You can try David Skrbina "Panpsychism in the West" for a survey or David Ray Griffin writings on Whitehead and panexperientialism. It is a pretty significant difference there between Kant and human minds and epistemology and Whitehead with subjectivity as an ontological feature of all of the fundamental constituents of reality "actual occasions". Kant I do not think would entertain panpsychism in any form as an explanation of human mind whereas Whitehead sees primitive experience as a fundamental feature of all of reality and process.
Wayfarer June 14, 2025 at 01:25 #994364
Quoting prothero
Kant I do not think would entertain panpsychism in any form as an explanation of human mind whereas Whitehead sees primitive experience as a fundamental feature of all of reality and process.


I read a book by David Ray Griffin, (although was later dissappointed to learn he was a 9/11 conspiracy theorist.)

The view I'm advocating also draws on Buddhism, specifically a 1955 book called The Central Philosophy of Buddhism, T R V Murti. Murti draws comparisons between Buddhist 'middle way' (madhyamaka) philosophy and Kant, Hegel, Bradley and other idealist philosophers.

The problematic that Buddhism begins with is not the nature of the constituents of reality, but the cause of dukkha (usually translated as 'suffering'). Within that framework, the nature and relation of subjective and objective reality is resolved in a completely different way to Whitehead's. It does not posit any kind of pan-experiential elementary constituents. My interpretation is that subjectivity emerges with the formation of organic life. Even very rudimentary life-forms possess a kind of subjectivity, if not subjective awareness in the sense humans do. Schopenhauer puts it like this, speaking in terms of the evolution of life (and bearing in mind, this was published before the Origin of Species):

each more highly organised state of matter has succeeded a cruder state: so that the lower animals existed before men, fishes before land animals, plants before fishes, and the unorganised before all that is organised; that, consequently, the original mass had to pass through a long series of changes before the first eye could be opened. And yet, the existence of this whole world remains ever dependent upon the first eye that opened, even if it were that of an insect. For such an eye is a necessary condition of the possibility of knowledge, and the whole world exists only in and for knowledge, and without it is not even thinkable. The world is entirely idea, and as such demands the knowing subject as the supporter of its existence. This long course of time itself, filled with innumerable changes, through which matter rose from form to form till at last the first percipient creature appeared,—this whole time itself is only thinkable in the identity of a consciousness whose succession of ideas, whose form of knowing it is, and apart from which, it loses all meaning and is nothing at all.


The point I'm pressing is that, outside our consciousness of time, space, matter, and so on, the whole notion of existence or non-existence is meaningless. We know, of course, that there was an immense period of time prior to the evolution of h.sapiens (which is where this discussion started) - but Schopenhauer is pointing out that this whole conception is meaningful within the framework provided by the observing mind. So, while it's empirically true that the world existed prior to the evolution of h.sapiens, the true nature of that existence is unknowable apart from the cognitive and theoretical framework within which we imagine it. Hence, with Whitehead, I agree that 'outside the subject there is nothing', but within a different explanatory framework to the one he proposes.

Schopenhauer goes on:

Thus we see, on the one hand, the existence of the whole world necessarily dependent upon the first conscious being, however undeveloped it may be; on the other hand, this conscious being just as necessarily entirely dependent upon a long chain of causes and effects which have preceded it, and in which it itself appears as a small link. These two contradictory points of view, to each of which we are led with the same necessity, we might again call an antinomy in our faculty of knowledge… The necessary contradiction which at last presents itself to us here, finds its solution in the fact that, to use Kant’s phraseology, time, space, and causality do not belong to the thing-in-itself (i.e. the world as it is independently of perception), but only to its phenomena, of which they are the form; which in my language means this: The objective world, the world as idea, is not the only side of the world, but merely its outward side; and it has an entirely different side—the side of its inmost nature—its kernel—the thing-in-itself… But the world as idea… only appears with the opening of the first eye. Without this medium of knowledge it cannot be, and therefore it was not before it. But without that eye, that is to say, outside of knowledge, there was also no before, no time. Thus time has no beginning, but all beginning is in time.


Murti's book points out the many parallels between Kant's 'antinomies of reason' and the Buddha's 'unanswereable questions' (i.e. whether the world is eternal, whether the mind and the body are the same or different, among other things.) So in this framework it is not necessary to posit a speculative 'pan-subjectivity'. It starts and ends with insight into the world-making activities of the mind.
Count Timothy von Icarus June 14, 2025 at 03:07 #994372
This article is presented quite well. I will point out three things:

1.


Emergent properties are known to be partially independent from their grounds because they have attributes and functions not present in their grounds. Chief among these distinct attributes and functions is intent. Intent is a function of the designing mind that thinks strategically about “that which is not yet but will be.”


Are they known as such? This is a topic of huge debate. The author might be interested in Jaegwon Kim's monographs. He is considered to have offered a devastating critique of the idea of anything like "strong emergence" under a supervenience metaphysics. But this article avoids the problem of "how do chemicals interacting cause first person experiences, emotions, intentionality, sensory experience," with this appeal to emergence, while still seemingly embracing a substance metaphysics of supervenience. This would be something to address to make the argument tighter. Process metaphysics is often suggested as a potential avenue around this, but process metaphysics rejects supervenience (and might not be considered "materialism" in the normal sense).

Weak emergence is pretty much just data compression, so it doesn't solve the problem here at all.

Second, as a number of authors have pointed out, whatever emerges from strong emergence is in some sense fundamental because it cannot be accounted for by what it emerges from. So, even if the mental is a product of strong emergence, it would not seem to be the case that it could be adequately explained in terms of neurons. It would rather be the case that neurons, etc. are a prerequisite for mental phenomena, but cannot fully explain them. That is, physical sciences couldn't fully explain mental life. Would that still count as what the author means by "materialism?"

This is a tension, since arguably this is exactly what people mean by "non-material" many times, right? This leads to...

2. Material and non-material are never defined. This makes it difficult to understand what exactly is being argued against or for. The main explanation of what the non-material must entail sounds like substance dualism. This is a popular punching bag, but not a popular position. It might be good to take on some more popular positions as a means of clarifying what the positive position is, or just clarifying the positive position. That the body is a cause of experienced isn't really denied by many metaphysical theories, so the basics that get outlined don't clarify this much.

3. The brain in the vat example seems to actually stress the idea that brains don't cause consciousness on their own. Any brain locked in vacuum will be a dead brain. Brains only ever produce consciousness in bodies, outside of sci-fi situations bordering on magic. They need a constant exchange of energy, information, and causes across their boundaries to produce any experience at all. Bodies also only produce experience within a very narrow range of environmental conditions. They won't do so on a star, in space, or at the bottom of the sea. So it's really a much larger physical system that is required to account for even tiny intervals of mental life. And these include elements outside the body.

The author sort of gets at this, I just think it undermines the early framing of things largely in terms of neurons. Neurons are important, necessary, but apparently not sufficient for experience. You always need a body and an environment. These can just be more variable, but still must comport to a very narrow range in the grand scheme of things.

Finally, some views of "materialism" rolled out by physicists are so thoroughly mathematized that they seem more like idealism. This is just another reason why 'materialism' needs to be defined. Otherwise, it seems vulnerable to Hemple's dilemma and the charge that " material" is just a vague term for "real."
ucarr June 18, 2025 at 20:09 #995456
Reply to Wayfarer Reply to Vera Mont

Quoting Wayfarer
I’m also making the point that this suggests that the domain of possibility exceeds and is different to the domain of actuality - again, something which recent history abundantly illustrates.


Do you think that within the domain of possibility, there is a social reality such that P1 (possibility one) holds a conversation with P2 (possibility two)?

If we conclude social reality doesn't attach itself to possibility, must we also conclude possibility is emergent from human conversation?

You seem to acknowledge mind cannot be uncoupled from brain.

If you do make this acknowledgement, then consider the following transitive argument: If mind cannot be uncoupled from brain, then possibility cannot be uncoupled from brain.
Wayfarer June 19, 2025 at 01:04 #995531
Quoting ucarr
Do you think that within the domain of possibility, there is a social reality such that P1 (possibility one) holds a conversation with P2 (possibility two)?


I can't really make sense of that question. There are no discrete domains in that sense. The textbook example I referred to is the role of observation in quantum physics and the fact that the act of observation or registration precipitates a particular outcome from an indeterminate range of possibilities.

In a more general sense, we are able to consider possibilities and find ways to realise them - make them real, in other words.

Quoting ucarr
You seem to acknowledge mind cannot be uncoupled from brain.


And you seem always determined to argue that 'the physical is fundamental.' So far, I'm not persuaded, but then again I've never accepted physicalism as a philosophy.
ucarr June 19, 2025 at 07:07 #995585
Reply to Wayfarer Reply to Vera Mont

Quoting Wayfarer
The textbook example I referred to is the role of observation in quantum physics and the fact that the act of observation or registration precipitates a particular outcome from an indeterminate range of possibilities.


Your reply here shows you making good sense of my question. You show that observable phenomena are the result of crosstalk in the sense of conversation between sentients; the object-subject dance; the organizational formatting of consciousness vis-á-vis the unmediated glut of possibility.

Quoting Wayfarer
There are no discrete domains in that sense.


Correct. Consciousness is always a blooming tangle of inter-weaving gravitations not strictly local.

Quoting Wayfarer
In a more general sense, we are able to consider possibilities and find ways to realise them - make them real, in other words.


Yes. You describe how a sentient like you brings the organizational formatting of consciousness to the unmanaged glut of the fundamentals.

Quoting Wayfarer
And you seem always determined to argue that 'the physical is fundamental.'


What's fundamental is the pairing of brain_mind. Given one means given the other. IFF.
Moliere June 27, 2025 at 14:04 #997420
@ucarr

[quote=ucarr]Just as the time compression of abstract thought makes mental constructs seem timeless, the time dilation of absential materialism makes intentional constructs seem immaterial. The time compression of abstract thought is to the time dilation of absential materialism as the discrete boundaries of the particle form are to the probability clouds of the waveform.[/quote]

Your section on time is the part I found the most interesting of this reflection. "time compression/dilation", in the context of your equation for material reality, reminds me of Kant. Actually your schema generally reminds me of Kant, for that matter -- the material reality outside of the senses to the senses to the physical mind to the mental correlate to the concept to the sentence -- and were this to continue in that vein your time compression/dilation would take place somewhere in-between the neural correlates to the mental and the mental.

Only you do go a step further and equate basically everything with material reality, even the supervening mental correlates.

That'd probably be the part that's hardest for me to wrap my mind around. I have often thought of how to naturalize Kant, but ultimately gave it up because it just always seemed to go a step too far for what is written. And once naturalized you end back in the antinomies of freedom/causation, for instance -- the noumenal took care of the "beyond" in his system. How would you account for such an antinomy using your equation? Or would it just be set aside as uninteresting?
ucarr June 27, 2025 at 22:00 #997539
Reply to Moliere

Quoting Moliere
...your equation for material reality, reminds me of Kant. Actually your schema generally reminds me of Kant...


Quoting Moliere
Only you do go a step further and equate basically everything with material reality, even the supervening mental correlates.


Quoting Moliere
And once naturalized you end back in the antinomies of freedom/causation, for instance -- the noumenal took care of the "beyond" in his system. How would you account for such an antinomy using your equation?


I should let your feedback marinate in my memory for a few days, but I'm motivated to share right now my capsule thought that the apparent contradiction between symmetry_causation on the one side and change-of-form_conservation on the other, or, in a single word, truth, resembles a yin-yang interweave.

I say this to show I'm not a reductive materialist. I think material thing_abstract thought are a matched set, as in p?q. I'm endeavoring to think about the relationship being best expressed by a?b. There's an IFF about the two modes of being, but maybe there's something wrong with this characterization.

I see light from thinking thus: the subvenience of the brain grounds the supervenience of the mind, and vice versa. I fear this too is a faulty characterization, but I take my daily comfort from believing that the two modes are equally omnipresent and indispensable and they, along with consciousness, are at all times essential to existence.

From here I proceed to thinking all systems of existence are both physical and consciousness-bearing.

Physics without thought has no order; thought without physics has no meaning.

I doubt the hard work revolves around the either/or binary. I think it hovers around the interrelations connecting the two modes. Perhaps the fine details of these interrelations merge into Wittgenstein’s silence.

I see that my title is misleading; my assumption is that perception of material reality assumes abstract thought and, abstract thought assumes material reality.




Joshs June 27, 2025 at 22:49 #997556

Reply to ucarr
Quoting ucarr
Physics without thought has no order; thought without physics has no meaning.


Thought without physics still has the substrate for physics, which is experienced phenomena. Thought is always about something, always has its object. The physical is just a hisotricallycontingent abstraction constructed out of our experience with phenomenally perceived objects. Two hundred years from now our sciences may no longer need the concepts of physics or the physical object, but they will still be about phenomenal objects.
ucarr July 01, 2025 at 15:12 #998123
Reply to Joshs

Quoting Joshs
Two hundred years from now our sciences may no longer need the concepts of physics or the physical object, but they will still be about phenomenal objects.


The "what" and the "how."

The "what," ultimately, is axiomatic. There it is before you. No analysis can justify it being there before you. Logic might justify how it came to be there before you, but the fact of its presence before you lies beyond the reach of continuity. So, Heisenberg and Gödel alert us to the incompleteness of continuity.

The "how" is a narrative that distributes the "what." Herein lies meaningful continuity. When we seek answers, we seek a story that supplies those answers. The greatness of a story lies within the "how," not within the "what." A great story about mediocre things is more momentous than a mediocre story about great things.

The mystery of narrative lies in the "now" not being eternal but rather incomplete.

The Now

Every story is a journey to the now; no story ever gets there.

So, the symmetry of mind and matter is such that we never get to the essence of a thing, and we never get to the end of a story. On graph paper this symmetry might look like two parabolas approaching but never touching.

Joshs July 01, 2025 at 17:30 #998139
Reply to ucarr

Quoting ucarr
The "what," ultimately, is axiomatic. There it is before you. No analysis can justify it being there before you. Logic might justify how it came to be there before you, but the fact of its presence before you lies beyond the reach of continuity. So, Heisenberg and Gödel alert us to the incompleteness of continuity.

The "how" is a narrative that distributes the "what." Herein lies meaningful continuity. When we seek answers, we seek a story that supplies those answers. The greatness of a story lies within the "how," not within the "what


I think this distinction between the what and the how is very important. It is what allows us to see that meaning is finite. It is not just that, as Gödel asserted, each axiomatic system grounds itself within a more encompassing system ad infinitum, but that the changes over time in the stories and narratives we use to interpret experience aren’t logically derivable from each other. They dont fit one within the other in an infinite regress, but follow one another as a change of subject.
Harry Hindu July 02, 2025 at 13:58 #998302
Quoting ucarr
The "what," ultimately, is axiomatic. There it is before you. No analysis can justify it being there before you. Logic might justify how it came to be there before you, but the fact of its presence before you lies beyond the reach of continuity. So, Heisenberg and Gödel alert us to the incompleteness of continuity.

The "how" is a narrative that distributes the "what." Herein lies meaningful continuity. When we seek answers, we seek a story that supplies those answers. The greatness of a story lies within the "how," not within the "what." A great story about mediocre things is more momentous than a mediocre story about great things.

What is the "you" in this explanation, and what is the relation of "stands before it" - spatial, temporal, etc.? If you are describing a view doesn't that mean realism is the case? If solipsism is the case, then it would not be proper to call it a view, but reality itself with the only continuity being the loop of causation within itself. Continuity would be complete if solipsism is the case.

If solipsism is the case, then why does the "what" appear as the view of an external world if it isn't? It appears that way axiomatically. I respond to the "what" instinctively in a way that treats it as an external world. The instincts become part of the "what". The instinctive analysis and logic (integrating the "what" with another part of the "what" (memories (retained "whats")) (why do similar "whats" axiomatically integrate with similar memories) is part of the "what" as well.

How can one say that there is an incompleteness of continuity when one can predict which direction the causal continuity will go within one's own mind (perceiving, reasoning, etc. reasons precede and support conclusions) by using logic that can be applied to there being continuity beyond the mind that produces predictable "whats" in the same way that using logic to explain only the continuity of the mind will produce predictable results - conclusions will always follow reasons, etc.?

If I fail to apply logic to only the continuity of the goings on within the "what" then I fail to achieve predictable results within the "what" itself.

Quoting Joshs
I think this distinction between the what and the how is very important. It is what allows us to see that meaning is finite. It is not just that, as Gödel asserted, each axiomatic system grounds itself within a more encompassing system ad infinitum, but that the changes over time in the stories and narratives we use to interpret experience aren’t logically derivable from each other. They dont fit one within the other in an infinite regress, but follow one another as a change of subject.

I think the more important distinction that needs to cleared up is the "you" and the "what stands before it".



ucarr July 02, 2025 at 18:09 #998363
Reply to Harry Hindu

Quoting Harry Hindu
What is the "you" in this explanation, and what is the relation of "stands before it" - spatial, temporal, etc.?


The "you" is a sentient being with an enduring point of view evolving as a personal history and a capacity for abstract thought preserved in memory.

The “you” and the “what” both occupy spacetime in a relationship allowing the “you” to have an empirical experience perceiving the “what.”

Quoting Harry Hindu
If you are describing a view doesn't that mean realism is the case?


By "realism" I understand you to refer to an aspect of empirical experience that I define thus: If you know what a thing is (you know the measurements of its dimensions) and where it is (you know where a thing is positioned by measuring the relationship of its spatial dimensions to the spatial dimensions of things around it), then you know the reality of the thing.

Quoting Harry Hindu
If solipsism is the case, then it would not be proper to call it a view, but reality itself with the only continuity being the loop of causation within itself.


I hold the view that in the instance of sentience -- one of my assumptions fundamental to my claims herein -- self-awareness makes the self an object of its sentience; this is the personal history extending from the "I experience things, and I know I experience things." phenomenon. Since solipsism assumes sentience, and therefore self-awareness and its attendant self-objectification, then the sentient maintains a view of itself. I think your, "...reality itself with the only continuity being the loop of causation within itself." excludes sentience and therefore precludes solipsism. This state of reality reads like Kant's noumenal realm, a realm that strikes me as the set of axiomatically real things, i.e., brute existential facts.

Quoting Harry Hindu
Continuity would be complete if solipsism is the case.


Within Kant's noumenal realm of things in themselves, I think continuity is a phenomenon more precisely labeled circularity: "I'm a chair because I'm a chair because..."

Quoting Harry Hindu
If solipsism is the case, then why does the "what" appear as the view of an external world if it isn't?


Again, I think sentients view themselves objectively towards building a personal history.

Quoting Harry Hindu
It appears that way axiomatically. I respond to the "what" instinctively in a way that treats it as an external world. The instincts become part of the "what". The instinctive analysis and logic (integrating the "what" with another part of the "what" (memories (retained "whats")) (why do similar "whats" axiomatically integrate with similar memories) is part of the "what" as well.


I understand you to be saying the "what" is configured in solipsism such that, Quoting Harry Hindu
...it would not be proper to call it a view, but reality itself with the only continuity being the loop of causation within itself. Continuity would be complete if solipsism is the case.


If brute existential facts are circular, as I suppose, then continuity would not be an issue in the absence of sentience, and moreover, subjectivity (which thrives upon continuity) would be a non-starter in the absence of the possibility of solipsism.

By you saying, Quoting Harry Hindu
...why does the "what" appear as the view of an external world if it isn't?


I understand you to mean continuity, in the context of solipsism, being a solitary loop of causation within itself, cannot be external, and thus cannot be perceived. If, as I think, solipsism includes self-objectivity, then it’s either paradoxical, i.e., it objectifies and externalizes the solitary self – this because solipsism assumes sentience and, in turn, sentience assumes self-awareness – or it’s self-effacing and thus, by definition, cannot exist.

Quoting Harry Hindu
I respond to the "what" instinctively in a way that treats it as an external world. The instincts become part of the "what". The instinctive analysis and logic (integrating the "what" with another part of the "what" (memories (retained "whats")) (why do similar "whats" axiomatically integrate with similar memories) is part of the "what" as well.


These details, being one with, Quoting Harry Hindu
...why does the "what" appear as the view of an external world if it isn't?


Firstly, I respond by repeating my argument directly above. Secondly, I respond by invoking Russell's Paradox. The upshot of this paradox is seeing that for set theory, the scope of comprehension cannot logically support itself without restriction. There is no set that contains everything. There can be no unification of everything into oneness. Perhaps you say the universe is not a set. Well, I too say it's not a set. I justify my claim by saying existence is incomplete. Moreover, I say existence, by its nature, preserves its incompleteness strategically. For these reasons, I claim there is no complete continuity. Were that possible, there could be unification of everything into oneness.

Let's look at Russell's Paradox in relation to solipsism. Consider the set of all sets not members of themselves. Well, if this set is not a member of itself, then it meets the criterion for being a member of itself, and thereby it meets the criterion for not being a member of itself. This time-zero logical pendulum swing between two contradictory states of being places the set within the realm of undefined. Well, undefined is a pretty good synonym for incomplete.

Any postulation of an all-inclusive oneness must, by definition, contain this undefined state as mandated by the paradoxicality of the unrestricted scope of comprehension, i.e., cosmic oneness. For these reasons, Russell's Paradox stands as the principle argument for a) strategic incompleteness of creation and for b) cosmic oneness impossible.

The Now, being an essential part of strategic incompleteness, herein needs to be defined. It's not the everlasting, but rather the ever-present with a stipulation: the ever-present is always here but never completely approachable. That's the heart of strategic incompletion. The world is a story always approaching The Now but never arriving, and that's a good thing.

Quoting Harry Hindu
How can one say that there is an incompleteness of continuity when one can predict which direction the causal continuity will go within one's own mind (perceiving, reasoning, etc. reasons precede and support conclusions) by using logic that can be applied to there being continuity beyond the mind that produces predictable "whats" in the same way that using logic to explain only the continuity of the mind will produce predictable results - conclusions will always follow reasons, etc.?


I respond to, Quoting Harry Hindu
... by using logic that can be applied to there being continuity beyond the mind...


with Quoting ucarr
Physics without thought has no order...


I respond to Quoting Harry Hindu
How can one say that there is an incompleteness of continuity when one can predict which direction the causal continuity will go within one's own mind (perceiving, reasoning, etc. reasons precede and support conclusions)...


with Quoting Joshs
It is not just that, as Gödel asserted, each axiomatic system grounds itself within a more encompassing system ad infinitum, but that the changes over time in the stories and narratives we use to interpret experience aren’t logically derivable from each other. They dont fit one within the other in an infinite regress, but follow one another as a change of subject.


Quoting Harry Hindu
If I fail to apply logic to only the continuity of the goings on within the "what" then I fail to achieve predictable results within the "what" itself.


As I read your "if_then" conjunction, I find that the continuity of the statement is broken by a non-sequitur in the "then" part.

Also, I note that you partition "what" into a phenomenal "what" followed by a noumenal "what." If by the partition you intend to distinguish thoughts of the mind from brute existential facts of the world, then I say you can't effect such a partition. We can only "enter" the noumenal realm through the lens of the mind.

Quoting Joshs
I think this distinction between the what and the how is very important. It is what allows us to see that meaning is finite. It is not just that, as Gödel asserted, each axiomatic system grounds itself within a more encompassing system ad infinitum, but that the changes over time in the stories and narratives we use to interpret experience aren’t logically derivable from each other. They dont fit one within the other in an infinite regress, but follow one another as a change of subject.


Quoting Harry Hindu
I think the more important distinction that needs to cleared up is the "you" and the "what stands before it".


I hope my comments here have done some clearing up of the "you" and the "what."

Harry Hindu July 03, 2025 at 13:52 #998504
Quoting ucarr
The "you" is a sentient being with an enduring point of view evolving as a personal history and a capacity for abstract thought preserved in memory.

The “you” and the “what” both occupy spacetime in a relationship allowing the “you” to have an empirical experience perceiving the “what.”

But isn't all this a "how" of the "what"?

Quoting ucarr
By "realism" I understand you to refer to an aspect of empirical experience that I define thus: If you know what a thing is (you know the measurements of its dimensions) and where it is (you know where a thing is positioned by measuring the relationship of its spatial dimensions to the spatial dimensions of things around it), then you know the reality of the thing.

By realism, I mean the idea that there is a mind-independent world - a "how" to the "what". In other words, "the what stands before the you" is a statement made only after one has provided a type of "how" to the "what". The "you" would also be a "how" in trying to make sense of the "what". Another type of "how" would be solipsism. If solipsism were the case, there would be no you with a what standing before it. You and the what would be one and the same if solipsism were the case.

Quoting ucarr
Since solipsism assumes sentience, and therefore self-awareness and its attendant self-objectification, then the sentient maintains a view of itself. I think your, "...reality itself with the only continuity being the loop of causation within itself." excludes sentience and therefore precludes solipsism. This state of reality reads like Kant's noumenal realm, a realm that strikes me as the set of axiomatically real things, i.e., brute existential facts.
Exactly. Solipsism is a possible "how" to the "what". The way I interpreted your "what" is simply an acknowledgement that something exists (axiomatic), and the "how" is an explanation as to the nature of what and the why it exists in the first place (solipsism and realism are possible explanations of the "what" - the thing that exists). Whether the "what" is a mind (solipsism) or a world (realism) is all laid out by the "how". So talking about awareness and sentience already assumes that the "what" is a mind. What I meant by, "reality itself with the only continuity being the loop of causation within itself" was that if solipsism is the case, then the "what" is all that exists and all continuity would be contained within it. Realism is the notion that the "what" is not all that exists.

Quoting ucarr
Firstly, I respond by repeating my argument directly above. Secondly, I respond by invoking Russell's Paradox. The upshot of this paradox is seeing that for set theory, the scope of comprehension cannot logically support itself without restriction. There is no set that contains everything. There can be no unification of everything into oneness. Perhaps you say the universe is not a set. Well, I too say it's not a set. I justify my claim by saying existence is incomplete. Moreover, I say existence, by its nature, preserves its incompleteness strategically. For these reasons, I claim there is no complete continuity. Were that possible, there could be unification of everything into oneness.

What does "everything" mean if not putting all things under one category - everything? And doesn't "everything" imply that there are no things external to it because it includes ALL things - everywhere and everywhen. If existence is eternal, "existence" would simply be synonymous with "everything". Doesn't solipsism imply that the "what" is all there is? Isn't this why the "you", and by extension "self-awareness" (awareness of "you") in solipsism is really just part of the "how"? Solipsism is simply trying to make sense of the "what" and uses terms like "you" and "self-awareness" as the "how" to explain the nature of "what". The issue is in the instinctive, axiomatic nature of explaining the "what" in the first place. Explanation appears to be an inherent part of the "what". Maybe I'm wrong and it is part of the "how".

Quoting ucarr
That's the heart of strategic incompletion. The world is a story always approaching The Now but never arriving, and that's a good thing.

I don't really understand how it's a paradox. Everything is all things and would be illogical to include everything as part of itself. Everything, by definition, is all things so would be an improper use of language to then assert that everything is part of something rather than all things, or that everything should refer to itself. It seems to me that the paradox is really the result of a misuse of language.








ucarr July 03, 2025 at 17:10 #998543
Reply to Harry Hindu

Quoting Harry Hindu
But isn't all this a "how" of the "what"?


Yes. Like the inter-relationship between the waveform and the particle, the what and the how do not comprise a hard binary isolating one from the other. A writer can easily write a narrative of the how of the what, or the what of the how. The link between the objective and the subjective is bi-directional.

Quoting Harry Hindu
The issue is in the instinctive, axiomatic nature of explaining the "what" in the first place.


Quoting Harry Hindu
By realism, I mean the idea that there is a mind-independent world - a "how" to the "what". In other words, "the what stands before the you" is a statement made only after one has provided a type of "how" to the "what". The "you" would also be a "how" in trying to make sense of the "what". Another type of "how" would be solipsism. If solipsism were the case, there would be no you with a what standing before it. You and the what would be one and the same if solipsism were the case.


If I parallel how and what with means and goal, then I read your above statement as an example of the use of mind-independent world to argue for a state of a system which assumes that state of a system. You're arguing for what you already assume to be the case. You distinguish realism from solipsism by assuming mind-independence. If this distinction is re-assigned to moot status, then neither mind-independence nor solipsim are known to exist.

In your elaboration of solipsism, your argue against a distinct self by means of a concept of absolute self. Solipsism and self-awareness-zero seem to me to be mutually exclusive.

Quoting Harry Hindu
Whether the "what" is a mind (solipsism) or a world (realism) is all laid out by the "how". So talking about awareness and sentience already assumes that the "what" is a mind.


I think your separation of mind and world is far too binary; the distinction is too discrete. Since the brain is a switching system that assembles cognition-aggregates from various sources, it can only be subsumed into what status, i.e., goal status in a state of unconsciousness. But, consciousness is the brain's function, so brain as a brute existential fact without separation from same into emergent mind is an unnatural and manipulated state of the system for the sake of making an argument for Quoting Harry Hindu
reality itself with the only continuity being the loop of causation within itself


Quoting Harry Hindu
Everything is all things and would be illogical to include everything as part of itself.


By saying this you imply everything is not part of itself and thus you imply everything is not everything; this is a replication of Russell's Paradox. If it's true one can't refute Russell's Paradox with respect to everything conceptualized as a unity, then there's evidence the paradox is insuperable. If the paradox is insuperable, that implies the system cannot be closed because, by definition, anything closed has an exterior and is thus superable.

If this is a language entanglement, then common sense supports taking recourse to the understanding language doesn’t completely represent the existential (existence is insuperable and therefore not closed), and perhaps in part that’s because the existential is incomplete.




Harry Hindu July 05, 2025 at 13:51 #998837
Quoting ucarr
By saying this you imply everything is not part of itself and thus you imply everything is not everything; this is a replication of Russell's Paradox.

This is not what I'm implying when I use those words, and I don't know anyone that does imply that when using the term, "everything". It is only a misuse of language that allows one to create the paradox. "Everything" is not a thing and therefore would not be included in "all things". A theory of everything would be able to predict why there is a theory of everything.

"Everything" could be implying "infinity" and "eternity" here. Everything does not imply either a closed or open system. It merely refers to all things. By definition, "everything" does not include "everything", it is merely a scribble that refers to everything that exists - whether we are aware of it's existence or not is a different matter.
ucarr July 05, 2025 at 19:23 #998883
Reply to Harry Hindu

Quoting Harry Hindu
Everything is all things and would be illogical to include everything as part of itself.


Quoting ucarr
By saying this you imply everything is not part of itself and thus you imply everything is not everything; this is a replication of Russell's Paradox.


Quoting Harry Hindu
This is not what I'm implying when I use those words, and I don't know anyone that does imply that when using the term, "everything". It is only a misuse of language that allows one to create the paradox.


Your sentence in bold makes a declaration about a phenomenon pertaining to language usage: paradox. This usage happens, it's real, it exists. This fact gives us reason to believe paradoxical language exists and therefore should be included in a collection of everything. The more important question pertains to whether or not paradoxical language refers to anything external to language. Some evidence that paradoxical physics is real beyond the scope of language is provided by QM, but some thinkers reject existence of superposition beyond Schrödinger's equation because we never see it in nature. If the math works as a description of nature, why should its existential veracity be rejected?

QM has a high rate of verification in nature, so the question of paradoxical physics is unresolved.

Logicians saw nothing wrong with unrestricted comprehension for set theory until Russell's Paradox. To me this indicates pre-Russell logicians believing a set containing itself permissible in nature at the level of abstract thought.

Our general question here pertains to how a thing is related to itself. This relationship is a fundamental part of consciousness because it's rooted in self-awareness. In my being aware of myself, am I not wholly aware of my whole self? If my whole self is not a part of myself, my thinking to the contrary seems to example Ryle's category error: I'm walking around on the university campus looking for the university which, wholly speaking, is not a part of the campus. I'm duped by my own fallacy of putting the university into the wrong category, itself. Let's see now, there's a physics building that's part of the university; to that I can add the biology building, and then the English department; when does the growing aggregate of parts reach the point where the calculus segregates the parts from the whole of the university? If my whole self is not part of itself, then that's a non-local distribution of the whole self beyond itself, and thus necessarily the self cannot be complete and self-contained, and thus we're back to the superposition of one thing two places at once. QM tantalizes us with the moot possibility of the reality of self-contradiction and thus identity fundamentally non-local.

I know your commitment to the misuse of language argument stands firm against my ruminations here.

Regarding the possibility of mind-independence, picture yourself placing a phone call to a close friend. You hope the friend will answer, thus making a conversation you deem important immediately possible. If solipsism is real, and thus no mind-independence, then why doesn't your mind know whether or not your friend will answer at a given moment in time? If the phone conversation is but a product of your mind, shouldn't your mind know when to call for an answer? Beyond that, why doesn't your mind, all-powerful in creating what you perceive as real, create everything exactly as it wishes? Why should your mind ever tolerate any degree of uncertainty?

If, by these arguments, we lean towards belief in mind-independent reality, then how does the mind of the observer of the what undermine the brute fact and independence of the what?

On the flip side, if the self of the mind is one with its context of reality, and no subject/object separation is possible, how is consciousness possible?

Suppose I argue that you know the what you perceive exists beyond your perception because you question whether or not it might exist in independence? Isn't your ability to question the what's independence contingent upon your general uncertainty about many things? If your mind projects all of reality, how could it ever want for anything it has capacity to conceive of?






Harry Hindu July 06, 2025 at 17:41 #999010
Quoting ucarr
Your sentence in bold makes a declaration about a phenomenon pertaining to language usage: paradox. This usage happens, it's real, it exists. This fact gives us reason to believe paradoxical language exists and therefore should be included in a collection of everything.

Here you seem to be making a distinction between what "everything" refers to and what "paradox" refers to. Yes, paradoxes exist. Paradoxes are a misuse of language. Misuses of language are real events. They are part of everything, but everything is not part of everything.

Quoting ucarr
QM has a high rate of verification in nature, so the question of paradoxical physics is unresolved.

QM reveals paradoxes in our descriptions and understanding of the universe, and is not representative of a fundamental nature of reality, but is representative of our ignorance. QM does not fit into our everyday experience of the world. The paradox just means that we haven't been able to reconcile classical physics with QM, but I think we eventually will, and I believe it will come with a better description of consciousness than the ones we currently have. What does QM say about the existence of other people and their minds (observers/measurers)? Isn't Schrodinger's cat an observer?


Quoting ucarr
Logicians saw nothing wrong with unrestricted comprehension for set theory until Russell's Paradox. To me this indicates pre-Russell logicians believing a set containing itself permissible in nature at the level of abstract thought.

Ok, at the level of abstract thought - yes, but not at the level of fundamental reality. If solipsism is the case then abstract thought is the fundamental reality. If solipsism is the case then paradoxes are an inherent part reality. Realism implies that we can be wrong about reality - that we can misunderstand and create conceptual paradoxes that are not representative of a mind-independent reality. These logicians appear to be too focused on syntax at the expense of semantics. Just because you followed the rules of some language does not necessarily mean you have actually said anything about the world. Just ask lawyers and computer programmers. They understand that words mean things and is why they try to be exact (non-paradoxical) in their use of language. Logic is only useful when it can be applied to the world and not merely a focus on the relationship between some scribbles.

Quoting ucarr
Our general question here pertains to how a thing is related to itself. This relationship is a fundamental part of consciousness because it's rooted in self-awareness. In my being aware of myself, am I not wholly aware of my whole self? If my whole self is not a part of myself, my thinking to the contrary seems to example Ryle's category error: I'm walking around on the university campus looking for the university which, wholly speaking, is not a part of the campus. I'm duped by my own fallacy of putting the university into the wrong category, itself. Let's see now, there's a physics building that's part of the university; to that I can add the biology building, and then the English department; when does the growing aggregate of parts reach the point where the calculus segregates the parts from the whole of the university? If my whole self is not part of itself, then that's a non-local distribution of the whole self beyond itself, and thus necessarily the self cannot be complete and self-contained, and thus we're back to the superposition of one thing two places at once. QM tantalizes us with the moot possibility of the reality of self-contradiction and thus identity fundamentally non-local.

Reading this made me dizzy. I have no idea what it means for a thing to be related to itself. A thing is a relation between its parts, and the boundaries of the thing are defined by the present goal in the mind. Are we attending ourselves, or a particular organ of ourselves, or our relation with other humans, or our relation with nature, etc.,? The answer lies within the current goal. Your whole self is not part of your self. It IS your self - that is what "whole" means. Your whole self is not part of itself. It is part of a society and species.

When you say you are self-aware, what are you attending - your mind, your body, etc.? What is the self that you are aware of, to even say you are aware of it? Their body is an "external" object to the mind, so we would be attending external processes. But we can turn our attention back upon itself - attending our attention, thinking about thinking, aware of awareness, kind of like how a feedback loop is created when we turn a camera-monitor system's view back upon itself, or a microphone-speaker's system back upon itself.

What is a university if not the aggregation of buildings, professors and students? The university is not part of the university, unless you're saying the idea of the university in the mind of a professor or student is part of the university. The physical university is not part of the physical university just as the abstract idea of a university is not part of the abstract idea of a university. When talking about a university or ourselves we are talking about the unity of parts that constitute these things, or we could be talking about these things are parts of a larger whole - as in the university is part of the city or state that is part of the university's name, or you are part of a society or species.

Quoting ucarr
Regarding the possibility of mind-independence, picture yourself placing a phone call to a close friend. You hope the friend will answer, thus making a conversation you deem important immediately possible. If solipsism is real, and thus no mind-independence, then why doesn't your mind know whether or not your friend will answer at a given moment in time? If the phone conversation is but a product of your mind, shouldn't your mind know when to call for an answer? Beyond that, why doesn't your mind, all-powerful in creating what you perceive as real, create everything exactly as it wishes? Why should your mind ever tolerate any degree of uncertainty?

Yes, I have thought of these same types of questions that if solipsism is the case then why can't I merely will myself to fly and be invisible to others? Why do I perceive myself always in the same position of being at the top of this same pedestal I call my body? Why do I wake up to the same world each morning that continues where I left off when I went to sleep? It seems that the will has no bearing on the rest of the current contents of my mind, and only makes sense if there is an external world that has a "will" (or wills as in other minds) separate from my own.

Quoting ucarr
If, by these arguments, we lean towards belief in mind-independent reality, then how does the mind of the observer of the what undermine the brute fact and independence of the what?

To a certain degree, we can. We have the power to change the world but there are obvious limits to our power and current understanding and descriptions of the world - that our understanding of the world is not the same as the world as it is.

Quoting ucarr
On the flip side, if the self of the mind is one with its context of reality, and no subject/object separation is possible, how is consciousness possible?

It wouldn't be. This is why solipsism ultimately resolves down to there being no mind - only a reality where "reasons" that lead to "conclusions" would be the only type of cause and effect. There would be no external causes that lead to the effect of the mind and the mind would not be a cause of changes in the external world.

Quoting ucarr
Suppose I argue that you know the what you perceive exists beyond your perception because you question whether or not it might exist in independence? Isn't your ability to question the what's independence contingent upon your general uncertainty about many things? If your mind projects all of reality, how could it ever want for anything it has capacity to conceive of?

I often bring up the idea of object permanence as a cognitive milestone that develops naturally within humans and other large-brained organisms. I think that we are born solipsists and through experience and reasoning we naturally conclude that realism is the case.
MoK July 06, 2025 at 17:58 #999012
Reply to Moliere
I have a thread about "Physical cannot be the cause of its own change" (you can find the related argument here); therefore, the mind is needed for change. So, the mind cannot be a byproduct of physical.
Alonsoaceves July 06, 2025 at 18:49 #999023
Quoting Moliere
Reality is Communal

The abhorrent thought of conducting an experiment of such total isolation as described above upon a newborn invokes the condemnation appropriate for a heartless act that equals a crime against humanity.
Nothing existing (and no one) is totally alone.


About this part of your essay, I’d like to add: To be is to be among. We are born into relationships before we ever form thoughts. Nothing exists in pure solitude—reality resists isolation. It is a web, not a wall. The dialogue we sustain throughout our journey is not ours alone; it is shared, echoed, and shaped by the experiences of others.


Moliere July 06, 2025 at 22:26 #999068
Reply to MoK Reply to Alonsoaceves @ucarr

Tagging the author so he can see your comments.
ucarr July 07, 2025 at 00:23 #999096
Reply to Harry Hindu

Quoting ucarr
Your sentence in bold makes a declaration about a phenomenon pertaining to language usage: paradox. This usage happens, it's real, it exists. This fact gives us reason to believe paradoxical language exists and therefore should be included in a collection of everything.


Quoting Harry Hindu
Here you seem to be making a distinction between what "everything" refers to and what "paradox" refers to. Yes, paradoxes exist. Paradoxes are a misuse of language. Misuses of language are real events. They are part of everything, but everything is not part of everything.


You say paradox = misuse of language. If I understand misuse in our context here as some type of violation, then I can ask, "What is being violated by language that expresses paradox?" For example, "Does paradoxical language violate the rules of inference?" If so, how so?

Quoting Harry Hindu
QM reveals paradoxes in our descriptions and understanding of the universe, and is not representative of a fundamental nature of reality, but is representative of our ignorance. QM does not fit into our everyday experience of the world. The paradox just means that we haven't been able to reconcile classical physics with QM...


It is said that the qubits of quantum computing possess categorically higher computing capacity vis-à-vis the bits of classical computing. The basic explanation for the quantum leap upward in computing power is the superposition of one qubit in two positions simultaneously. These qubits are physical entities, not abstractions resulting from twisting verbiage into language games resulting in paradoxes. How do you reconcile your denial of the reality of quantum physics with quantum computers?

Quoting Harry Hindu
Just because you followed the rules of some language does not necessarily mean you have actually said anything about the world. Just ask lawyers and computer programmers. They understand that words mean things and is why they try to be exact (non-paradoxical) in their use of language. Logic is only useful when it can be applied to the world and not merely a focus on the relationship between some scribbles.


From the above I understand you to believe that words used accurately are signs for the real things of mind-independent reality, and that paradox results from some type of language misuse that has it describing things not real and not a part of mind-independent reality. Can you show how a paradoxical statement such as, "This sentence is false." examples invalid logic? How is a veridical statement about its contradiction logically invalid?

Let's suppose you don't think such a statement is invalid, but then go on to say such a statement doesn't refer to anything within mind-independent reality. What do you say is the ontic status of such a statement?

Do you think the principle of non-contradiction is the security checkpoint blocking the entry of paradoxes into the realm of mind-independent reality?

Quoting Harry Hindu
Your whole self is not part of your self. It IS your self - that is what "whole" means. Your whole self is not part of itself. It is part of a society and species.


Above you describe some details of the part/whole relationship. I take from it your belief the whole self is a gestalt emergence from its parts and, as such, it’s partially distinct from the parts and thus not completely local to said parts. This, again, is a non-local but attached whole that is a part and yet not entirely a part of itself. Note how you say, “Your whole self is not part of itself.” in a context wherein the reader notices the repetition of “self.” If my whole self is not part of itself, how is it a self?

Do you think gestalt psychology is another language game disconnected from mind-independent reality?

Quoting Harry Hindu
What is a university if not the aggregation of buildings, professors and students?


As you add up the parts of the university towards a sum of the whole of the university, is there a discrete boundary line marking a division between the region housing an accumulating sum to a whole and the region where the whole resides?

If we suppose there's no such boundary line, must we admit there's no verifiably whole university, but instead only a forever-accumulating collection of parts?

Quoting Harry Hindu
...our understanding of the world is not the same as the world as it is.


Have you seen the world "as it is" in distinction from having seen the world?

Quoting Harry Hindu
It wouldn't be. This is why solipsism ultimately resolves down to there being no mind - only a reality where "reasons" that lead to "conclusions" would be the only type of cause and effect. There would be no external causes that lead to the effect of the mind and the mind would not be a cause of changes in the external world.


I think you internalize external world within isolated mind in order to give it the power of reasoning to conclusions. How could such internalization occur if world and mind have no connection? Also, you seem to be assuming both mind and external world, with both independent. Isn't this how you've been defining mind-independent reality?







ucarr July 07, 2025 at 00:25 #999098
ucarr July 07, 2025 at 00:31 #999100
Reply to MoK

Quoting MoK
Physical cannot be the cause of its own change...the mind is needed for change. So, the mind cannot be a byproduct of physical.


So, you deny mind emergent from brain?

There's a mind somewhere making hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water?

MoK July 07, 2025 at 11:30 #999147
Quoting ucarr

So, you deny mind emergent from brain?

In that thread, I deny that the matter is efficacious to cause a change in itself. The mind is a substance, so we are dealing with a hard problem of how a mind could be emergent from matter. Even if we accept that the mind could be an emergent substance, then we are dealing with the tension between what the mind wants to do and how matter evolves following the laws of nature.

Quoting ucarr

There's a mind somewhere making hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water?

There exists a Mind that is omnipresent in space and time, responsible for change in matter everywhere. I have a thread on this topic here.
Harry Hindu July 07, 2025 at 15:35 #999178
Quoting ucarr
You say paradox = misuse of language. If I understand misuse in our context here as some type of violation, then I can ask, "What is being violated by language that expresses paradox?" For example, "Does paradoxical language violate the rules of inference?" If so, how so?

It appears to violate the rules of semantics - what in the world is the paradox about? Using your example of inference, what observable evidence proves the paradox points to any real aspect of reality? Einstein's theories had to be proven by observation. Where do we observe the paradox in nature independent of the relationship between some scribbles on a computer screen or sheet of paper? You've mentioned QM...

Quoting ucarr
It is said that the qubits of quantum computing possess categorically higher computing capacity vis-à-vis the bits of classical computing. The basic explanation for the quantum leap upward in computing power is the superposition of one qubit in two positions simultaneously. These qubits are physical entities, not abstractions resulting from twisting verbiage into language games resulting in paradoxes. How do you reconcile your denial of the reality of quantum physics with quantum computers?

I don't deny that we have descriptions of nature that work. In what state is the quantum computer when not looking at it? The issue with QM does not seem to explain decoherence in a sensible way. If decoherence requires interaction with other decohered (classical) systems, how did the first decoherence event happen? What started the chain? Didn't space-time have to exist prior to allow decoherence?

Quoting MoK
There exists a Mind that is omnipresent in space and time, responsible for change in matter everywhere.

This seems to be part of the same problem. If minds are needed to change matter, what got the first mind going? It's a infinite regress of minds, just as we have an infinite regress of decoherence.


Quoting ucarr
Do you think the principle of non-contradiction is the security checkpoint blocking the entry of paradoxes into the realm of mind-independent reality?

Yes, but this does not deny that the extremes are the only kind of existence. In fact, I think it is the extremes that are mental constructs. We tend to perceive the world in discrete states, even black and white sometimes, when the world is a process, and it is the relative frequency of change of the external world processes relative to the processing speed of our sensory-brain system that seems to have an effect on which processes we perceive as discrete, stable, solid objects as opposed to other processes with no discrete boundaries. To say that something is neither this or that seems to mean that it is something else, which is logically possible and empirically provable.


Quoting ucarr
Above you describe some details of the part/whole relationship. I take from it your belief the whole self is a gestalt emergence from its parts and, as such, it’s partially distinct from the parts and thus not completely local to said parts. This, again, is a non-local but attached whole that is a part and yet not entirely a part of itself. Note how you say, “Your whole self is not part of itself.” in a context wherein the reader notices the repetition of “self.” If my whole self is not part of itself, how is it a self?

I think that the emergence you speak of is really a particular view, not something mind-dependent. We use particular views of nature for certain purposes, whether it be at the atomic, molecular, genetic, organism, species, etc. level. The discrete gestalts are mental constructs used to solve problems at that level (like how to treat organisms at the molecular level for diseases or how to treat organisms at a cultural/moral level). I think that it is goal-oriented, executive cognitive functions that form these discrete objects to solve problems - almost like a quantum computer.


Quoting ucarr
As you add up the parts of the university towards a sum of the whole of the university, is there a discrete boundary line marking a division between the region housing an accumulating sum to a whole and the region where the whole resides?

If we suppose there's no such boundary line, must we admit there's no verifiably whole university, but instead only a forever-accumulating collection of parts?

Sure, call a surveyor and they will tell you what the boundary is. There seems to be a distinction between artificial/arbitrary boundaries defined by human beings as opposed to natural boundaries where they seem more vague.

Quoting ucarr
Have you seen the world "as it is" in distinction from having seen the world?

My mind is part of the world. I experience it as it is. I am a realist (not a direct or indirect realist, as I see them as a false dichotomy) so I believe that my mind informs me of the way the world is via causation. Effects inform us of the causes and allow use to make accurate predictions of future effects.


Quoting ucarr
I think you internalize external world within isolated mind in order to give it the power of reasoning to conclusions. How could such internalization occur if world and mind have no connection? Also, you seem to be assuming both mind and external world, with both independent. Isn't this how you've been defining mind-independent reality?

One might ask how logic/reasoning comes about without an external world as input to work with. What happens when we put someone in a sensory deprivation chamber for an extended period? They tend to go insane and hallucinate (one might start thinking in paradoxes), but they don't cease to exist.

I do not mean that mind and world are separate, only that there are processes that are not mind-processes and processes that are. An apple is a process (it ripens and rots), but not a mental one. Mental processes are complex interaction of new sensory information, stored sensory information and a goal-directed central executive. Natural selection is not just a purposeless process as natural selection is not just how the climate and geology steer evolution but other organisms (other minds) play a role on the evolution of other organisms. Humans are the ones that have made the leap of shaping the world and other organisms more than any other lifeform before. Nature is being shaped purposefully for human needs and wants. Technology appears to blur the lines of a mind-independent world as technology are effects of purposeful, goal-directed behavior - minds, or mental processes.







MoK July 07, 2025 at 15:55 #999182
Quoting Harry Hindu

This seems to be part of the same problem. If minds are needed to change matter, what got the first mind going? It's a infinite regress of minds, just as we have an infinite regress of decoherence.

I am talking about the Mind, not God. There is a beginning for time. Either the stuff (the physical, for example) existed at the beginning of time and evolved to form life, or there was a God who created what was necessary. What was necessary is the subject of discussion. I have an argument about "Physical cannot be the cause of its own change" (which can be found here), so the first case is discarded; therefore, there is a God.
ucarr July 07, 2025 at 21:36 #999241
Reply to Harry Hindu

Quoting ucarr
You say paradox = misuse of language. If I understand misuse in our context here as some type of violation, then I can ask, "What is being violated by language that expresses paradox?" For example, "Does paradoxical language violate the rules of inference?" If so, how so?


Quoting Harry Hindu
It appears to violate the rules of semantics - what in the world is the paradox about? Using your example of inference, what observable evidence proves the paradox points to any real aspect of reality?...Where do we observe the paradox in nature independent of the relationship between some scribbles on a computer screen or sheet of paper? You've mentioned QM...


Speculation: Math paradox the result of calculations points toward a higher dimensional object that resolves the paradox with an additional existential extension, i.e., with another dimension. Looking in the reverse direction, the paradox is the higher dimension in collapsed state. Example: If the statement, "If the set of all sets not containing themselves doesn't contain itself and thus does contain itself and thus..." oscillates between two contradictory states made equivalent, then this undecidable state of the system is hunting for a higher dimensional matrix in which to unfold itself.

Quoting ucarr
The basic explanation for the quantum leap upward in computing power is the superposition of one qubit in two positions simultaneously.


Quoting Harry Hindu
I don't deny that we have descriptions of nature that work. In what state is the quantum computer when not looking at it?


The pertinent question pertains to the existence of mitigation strategies for quantum error correction. Yes, (QECC) is employed with quantum computing; also, quantum processors are kept in vacuum chambers and shielded from electromagnetic interference.

Quoting Harry Hindu
...how did the first decoherence event happen?
.

There has been no first decoherence event because QM laws underlie the natural world. QM systems and Newtonian systems aren't isolated from each other. A quantum system loses its quantum phase relations (decoherence) through entanglement with it's surrounding environment. Isolation of a quantum system enables quantum coherence. Although quantum system phase relations have always been possible, only recently has humanity been able to perceive and then detect QM systems in isolation through math and super-colliders.

Quoting Harry Hindu
We tend to perceive the world in discrete states, even black and white sometimes, when the world is a process, and it is the relative frequency of change of the external world processes relative to the processing speed of our sensory-brain system that seems to have an effect on which processes we perceive as discrete, stable, solid objects as opposed to other processes with no discrete boundaries.


So, the particle/wave duality is more effect of the processing limitations of human cognition than ontic state of physical systems? And yet, nevertheless, discrete objects are more at realism than at solipsism?

Quoting Harry Hindu
To say that something is neither this or that seems to mean that it is something else, which is logically possible and empirically provable.


This statement is generally compatible with my speculation paradox as collapsed higher dimensional extension is a marker pointing upwards toward a higher dimensional matrix. The this-or-thatness of a collapsed higher dimension examples a logic-governed cognition spinning its wheels due to the lack of available info within a system too dimensionally restricted to accommodate the full expansion of the higher-dimensional object.

Quoting ucarr
As you add up the parts of the university towards a sum of the whole of the university, is there a discrete boundary line marking a division between the region housing an accumulating sum to a whole and the region where the whole resides?

If we suppose there's no such boundary line, must we admit there's no verifiably whole university, but instead only a forever-accumulating collection of parts?


Quoting Harry Hindu
Sure, call a surveyor and they will tell you what the boundary is. There seems to be a distinction between artificial/arbitrary boundaries defined by human beings as opposed to natural boundaries where they seem more vague.


Since you seem unable to locate the whole university beyond the vaguely axiomatic language you've been using, you attack the messenger instead of the message by implying math is a human invention containing fabrications and distortions?

Quoting Harry Hindu
My mind is part of the world. I experience it as it is. I am a realist (not a direct or indirect realist, as I see them as a false dichotomy) so I believe that my mind informs me of the way the world is via causation. Effects inform us of the causes and allow use to make accurate predictions of future effects.


Should there be ambiguity of causation, would you understand it as another instance of contrived uncertainty rooted in the misuse of language?
















Harry Hindu July 08, 2025 at 13:34 #999315
Quoting MoK
I am talking about the Mind, not God. There is a beginning for time. Either the stuff (the physical, for example) existed at the beginning of time and evolved to form life, or there was a God who created what was necessary. What was necessary is the subject of discussion. I have an argument about "Physical cannot be the cause of its own change" (which can be found here), so the first case is discarded; therefore, there is a God.

I thought you were talking about the Mind, not God. What is the difference anyway? What is the nature of God, or Mind, if not physical themselves? How does something non-physical interact with the physical?
Harry Hindu July 08, 2025 at 14:25 #999319
Quoting ucarr
Speculation: Math paradox the result of calculations points toward a higher dimensional object that resolves the paradox with an additional existential extension, i.e., with another dimension. Looking in the reverse direction, the paradox is the higher dimension in collapsed state. Example: If the statement, "If the set of all sets not containing themselves doesn't contain itself and thus does contain itself and thus..." oscillates between two contradictory states made equivalent, then this undecidable state of the system is hunting for a higher dimensional matrix in which to unfold itself.

In other words, it is only a paradox from a certain constrained view of ignorance.


Quoting ucarr
The pertinent question pertains to the existence of mitigation strategies for quantum error correction. Yes, (QECC) is employed with quantum computing; also, quantum processors are kept in vacuum chambers and shielded from electromagnetic interference.

How does information get out if it is shielded? How are the states of the processors known if not by some interaction? What about:
Quoting Alonsoaceves
Nothing exists in pure solitude—reality resists isolation. It is a web, not a wall (shield).
?


Quoting ucarr
There has been no first decoherence event because QM laws underlie the natural world. QM systems and Newtonian systems aren't isolated from each other. A quantum system loses its quantum phase relations (decoherence) through entanglement with it's surrounding environment. Isolation of a quantum system enables quantum coherence. Although quantum system phase relations have always been possible, only recently has humanity been able to perceive and then detect QM systems in isolation through math and super-colliders.

In other words, an environment (space-time) has to exist for decoherence to occur. One might say it is the medium in which decoherence occurs. QM systems in isolation only exist on paper (math) or in extreme environments that only last a tiny fraction of a second (super-colliders and the Big Bang) - going back to what Alonsoaceves said - nature abhors solitude. The fact that we are even able to get information about sub-atomic particles being in a state of superposition means that information went in and came out in some way, and that superposition is simply one kind of state and "off" and "on" are other states. It seems to me that while nature abhors solitude, it also abhors being put into our mental categorical boxes.

Quoting ucarr
So, the particle/wave duality is more effect of the processing limitations of human cognition than ontic state of physical systems? And yet, nevertheless, discrete objects are more at realism than at solipsism?

Haven't scientists also said that we don't see the world as it is? How do they square that with their claims about how the brain works and how quantum systems work? Scientists have ignored consciousness as an integral part of how we do science in the first place. Are we talking about the world, or our view of the world? Are we confusing the map with the territory?

Quoting ucarr
Since you seem unable to locate the whole university beyond the vaguely axiomatic language you've been using, you attack the messenger instead of the message by implying math is a human invention containing fabrications and distortions?

So you don't agree that there is a distinction between the clear boundaries invented by humans and their language as opposed to "boundaries" that preceded human's and their languages existence? Crossing the border illegally is only a problem when borders are clearly defined. A human crossing that same piece of land 100,000 years ago would not have this to worry about. One might even say that the overlay of political maps on top of physical maps is another dimension itself - the dimension of the mind.

Quoting ucarr
Should there be ambiguity of causation, would you understand it as another instance of contrived uncertainty rooted in the misuse of language?

No because language depends on causation and realism. The fact that we have language at all is evidence that causation and realism are the case. There is a cause that preceded my observation of your scribbles on this screen. You had to have the intent to convey information and a computer and internet access as a means to relay the message. It took time for you to convert your visual constructs of the world to scribbles and then type them out and submit your post. If you had no visual construct that you converted to scribbles, and/or your visual construct is not representative of some aspect of reality, then what are the scribbles about? What are you referring to when using scribbles - more scribbles (a solipsist answer) or something in the world that is not more scribbles, and might not even be visible from your perspective - hence the use of language to inform others of things that they were not already aware of (mind-independent) (a realist answer)?

MoK July 08, 2025 at 15:02 #999323
Quoting Harry Hindu

I thought you were talking about the Mind, not God. What is the difference anyway?

The Mind is the sustainer of the stuff, matter for example, excluding minds, whereas God is the creator of everything.

Quoting Harry Hindu

What is the nature of God, or Mind, if not physical themselves?

The Mind is a substance with the ability to experience and cause the stuff. The Mind is free, by free I mean It can decide in situations when there is a conflict of interest in choices. The nature of God is unknown; by unknown, I mean that we humans and other creatures cannot comprehend or perceive since God's nature is very vast. It knows all forms and has the ability to appear in all forms as well.

Quoting Harry Hindu

How does something non-physical interact with the physical?

The Mind, as it is stated in the first comment, has the ability to experience and cause physical for example.
ucarr July 08, 2025 at 21:13 #999381
Reply to Harry Hindu

Quoting Harry Hindu
n other words, it is only a paradox from a certain constrained view of ignorance.


I'm in no hurry to conclude undecidable super-position and its conjectured role as signpost pointing to higher dimensional extension is a type of cognitive illusion. It may be that to some extent, but we're looking at realist physics-and-matter-compliant phenomena exampling non-locality; the 2022 Nobel Prize in physics went to three researchers with something to say about the universe not being locally real. I understand this means, at least in part, that the reality immediately before us is not discretely mind-independent. That it appears to be, as explained by some researchers, stands due to the fact the environment, which includes sentients, measures material systems, thus cancelling their quantum effects. From this viewpoint, I can say that discrete mind-independence results “from a certain constrained view of ignorance.”

Quoting Harry Hindu
How does information get out if it is shielded? How are the states of the processors known if not by some interaction? What about:


Quoting Alonsoaceves
Nothing exists in pure solitude


Most situations have variable conditions depending on the goals of sentients. In the case of quantum computing, trans-real calculations in a box are sought after by isolating critical computation components from environmental interference that cancel quantum phase relations. This is appropriate per the goal; it doesn't, however, cancel interactions necessary to info exchanges, i.e. shared quantum phase relations.

Quoting Harry Hindu
In other words, an environment (space-time) has to exist for decoherence to occur. One might say it is the medium in which decoherence occurs.


Spacetime is also the medium supporting coherence.

Quoting Harry Hindu
The fact that we are even able to get information about sub-atomic particles being in a state of superposition means that information went in and came out in some way, and that superposition is simply one kind of state and "off" and "on" are other states.


Yes, the third state affords an exponential increase in info processing. Regarding improbabilities, earth being friendly to carbon-based life forms might be an example of an extreme statistical bias towards emergence of consciousness.

Quoting Harry Hindu
Are we confusing the map with the territory?


I think the radicalism of QM is rooted in its intentional focus upon the strategic and useful confusion of the map with the territory. Were this confusion not useful, the memory lobes of your brain would not keep you connected to your childhood.

Quoting Harry Hindu
So you don't agree that there is a distinction between the clear boundaries invented by humans and their language as opposed to "boundaries" that preceded human's and their languages existence?


Before sentience, there were no boundaries. Dimensional extension defining the physics and materiality of things is rooted in cognition. Absent brain_mind, matter and its physics are a jumbled outpouring of potential states possibilities. Have you ever seen a computer monitor try to display the graphics of a program that requires a higher info-processing video card than the one installed in the computer? The screen shows a technicolor morass of jumbled, overlapping distortions unintelligible. This is my conjecture about the physics of the world independent of the organizing principles of cognition.

Quoting Harry Hindu
What are you referring to when using scribbles - more scribbles (a solipsist answer) or something in the world that is not more scribbles, and might not even be visible from your perspective - hence the use of language to inform others of things that they were not already aware of (mind-independent) (a realist answer)?


Yes, my perception of the world is an approximation of same. The tricky thing that QM has taught us, is that the interpreting_approximating is bi-directional. The supposedly mind-independent world is not hardened into discrete system states, just as my ability to perceive and understand mind-independent world is not hardened into discrete system states. There is a dance between observed and observer. The adventure of living lies in the fact that while there are constraints upon what the dance steps can be, how they are attacked supports many, perhaps infinite variations. An example paralleling this is the keyboard of a piano. The number of notes provided by the keyboard are limited, but that number nonetheless supports many variations. We don't know exactly what the pianist will play.








ucarr July 08, 2025 at 21:20 #999383
Reply to MoK

Quoting MoK
The Mind is a substance with the ability to experience and cause the stuff.


What's the relationship between substance, stuff and matter?

Harry Hindu July 09, 2025 at 13:02 #999480
Quoting ucarr
It may be that to some extent, but we're looking at realist physics-and-matter-compliant phenomena exampling non-locality; the 2022 Nobel Prize in physics went to three researchers with something to say about the universe not being locally real. I understand this means, at least in part, that the reality immediately before us is not discretely mind-independent. That it appears to be, as explained by some researchers, stands due to the fact the environment, which includes sentients, measures material systems, thus cancelling their quantum effects. From this viewpoint, I can say that discrete mind-independence results “from a certain constrained view of ignorance.”

If it's not locally real (what does "real" mean in this sense?) then why do physicists talk about electrons and photons being in a state of superposition? To talk about these things indicates that these things have some boundary that separates them from other electrons and photons, even when in a state of superposition - as if they have an existence independent of other things even in a state of superposition. What makes a thing an electron of photon and what makes one electron or photon separate from other electrons and photons? Physicists talk about electrons and photons as if they are real - even when in a state of superposition. Decoherence appears to simply change the states of electrons and photons - not make them real, as physicists use of language indicates that they are already real - even in a state of superposition.

Sentients haven't always existed. What was the world like before sentients existed? How did sentients come to exist? How is it that multiple sentients seem to come to the same conclusion about what is in the environment and even use each other to validate scientific theories by performing the same experiments from their own position in space-time.

Quoting ucarr
Yes, the third state affords an exponential increase in info processing. Regarding improbabilities, earth being friendly to carbon-based life forms might be an example of an extreme statistical bias towards emergence of consciousness.

But Earth is only only one of trillions, upon trillions of planets in the universe. It was just statistically possible given all the time and space that at least one planet would end up in a stable star system with the just right distance and chemistry for life. There may be other planets in which life evolved but not conscious life. It does not seem that the universe was fine-tuned for consciousness. Of course it seems like we are lucky being the beneficiaries of these purposeless natural causes. You might think you are lucky winning the lottery, but it was just a statistical reality that someone will win because millions are playing, and this time it was you. Luck becomes even less of a thing if there are trillions (or an infinite number) of other universes. The more time and space you have, the more likely you will get something unique occurring. How much time and space does one need for consciousness to have a chance to evolve? If there was a creator, it seems to me that it would require much less space than we have, and it is the mind-numbing expanse of space and time that is evidence that we are outcomes of purposeless processes, not a purposeful one.

Quoting ucarr
I think the radicalism of QM is rooted in its intentional focus upon the strategic and useful confusion of the map with the territory. Were this confusion not useful, the memory lobes of your brain would not keep you connected to your childhood.

I don't see how confusion could be useful, other than informing you that you don't have something quite right about your interpretation of reality, and to keep trying.


Quoting ucarr
Before sentience, there were no boundaries. Dimensional extension defining the physics and materiality of things is rooted in cognition. Absent brain_mind, matter and its physics are a jumbled outpouring of potential states possibilities. Have you ever seen a computer monitor try to display the graphics of a program that requires a higher info-processing video card than the one installed in the computer? The screen shows a technicolor morass of jumbled, overlapping distortions unintelligible. This is my conjecture about the physics of the world independent of the organizing principles of cognition.

I think of it more as the world is like an analog signal that minds digitize into discrete objects for the purpose of thinking and solving problems. The question is how much of the digital object is a mental construct and how much is a representation of the signal before being digitized. Does it even matter? Is that even a relevant question?

What defined the boundaries between sentient minds? What makes your mind "other" than mine?

Quoting ucarr
Yes, my perception of the world is an approximation of same. The tricky thing that QM has taught us, is that the interpreting_approximating is bi-directional. The supposedly mind-independent world is not hardened into discrete system states, just as my ability to perceive and understand mind-independent world is not hardened into discrete system states. There is a dance between observed and observer. The adventure of living lies in the fact that while there are constraints upon what the dance steps can be, how they are attacked supports many, perhaps infinite variations. An example paralleling this is the keyboard of a piano. The number of notes provided by the keyboard are limited, but that number nonetheless supports many variations. We don't know exactly what the pianist will play.

Well, the pianist is just another part. If we know the history of the pianist and what they know how to play and what they like to play, and what they have played most often, you don't really need to count the keys on the piano, do you?

MoK July 09, 2025 at 15:32 #999503
Quoting ucarr

What's the relationship between substance, stuff and matter?

By substance, I mean something that exists and has a set of properties. The Mind is a substance with the ability to experience and cause stuff. Matter is an example of stuff.
ucarr July 09, 2025 at 15:57 #999509
Reply to MoK

Are substance, stuff and matter all made of atoms and molecules?

What about mind? What’s it made of?
MoK July 09, 2025 at 16:21 #999513
Quoting ucarr

Are substance, stuff and matter all made of atoms and molecules?

Matter, for example, is made of strings. Other stuff, we don't know.

Quoting ucarr

What about mind? What’s it made of?

The minds are not made of anything else. That could be understood from the fact that free decision is due to the mind; otherwise, one has to deal with an infinite regress that is not acceptable!
ucarr July 09, 2025 at 22:45 #999569
Reply to Harry Hindu

Quoting Harry Hindu
If it's not locally real (what does "real" mean in this sense?)


"Real" in this sense, as I understand it, refers to the classical view that says objects are only influenced by their surrounding environment. QM says quantum effects connect positions with material extensions across distances that go beyond local interactions.

Quoting Harry Hindu
What was the world like before sentients existed?


I imagine the world, then as now, was governed by both Newtonian and QM physics.

Quoting Harry Hindu
If there was a creator, it seems to me that it would require much less space than we have, and it is the mind-numbing expanse of space and time that is evidence that we are outcomes of purposeless processes, not a purposeful one.


Okay. You're not a fan of intelligent design.

Quoting Harry Hindu
I don't see how confusion could be useful, other than informing you that you don't have something quite right about your interpretation of reality, and to keep trying.


I should've used "simulation" instead of "confusion." Our memories, acting as simulations of originally empirical experiences, allow us to have personal histories.

Quoting Harry Hindu
The question is how much of the digital object is a mental construct and how much is a representation of the signal before being digitized.


Shannon info theory might have some answers to your question.

Quoting Harry Hindu
What defined the boundaries between sentient minds? What makes your mind "other" than mine?


The variance of environments makes for different mindsets around the globe.

Quoting Harry Hindu
Well, the pianist is just another part. If we know the history of the pianist and what they know how to play and what they like to play, and what they have played most often, you don't really need to count the keys on the piano, do you?


Here you might be flirting with determinism, but I don't think you're completely serious about it.






ucarr July 10, 2025 at 17:19 #999697
Reply to MoK

Quoting MoK
The minds are not made of anything else


Mind, substance and stuff are made of strings? Strings are the foundation of all material things, right?



MoK July 10, 2025 at 17:53 #999707
Quoting ucarr

Mind, substance and stuff are made of strings?

The Mind is a substance that is omnipresent in spacetime and holds material in the form of strings in existence (I have a thread on this topic here).

Quoting ucarr

Strings are the foundation of all material things, right?

Correct, but minds are not material. I already provided an argument about "Physical cannot be cause of its own change", so we are dealing with substance dualism at least.