Deleted User

Reply to Amity :up:

If they would like to join again, they can send an email to info@thephilosophyforum.com.

Do you Reply to Amity, Reply to Jamal, have any insight into why they chose to leave?

Or then anyone else for that matter?

Does seem pretty extreme when there's the option to just not post for a period of time, do other things.

Erasing themselves from the forum likewise pretty extreme choice.

So does seem concerning.

Reply to boethius

Oh now you care. After he's gone. Yeah. How typical of you

If you'd really care to know such information may (possibly) be found by observing my and his limited interaction from my posting history. (Which in fact I wonder if is even possible to view)

I'll give you my opinion point blank. If you'd like. But that shall be delivered privately, you can message me, if you'd like. Otherwise, don't speak ill of the (no longer posting). Have you no respect? :lol:

For my part, I'm here to argue, but I do very much appreciate all voices and perspectives on the forum.

As far as I know this is the only place on the entire internet you can really interact with people in total and complete opposition, which is an incredibly precious resource for the critical thinking process and understanding society as a whole (to increase, rather than decrease, compassion for all members of our wider community of humanity).

I even very much appreciated most, if not all, the posters that I've interacted with and were banned. Though I do see the justification for the bannings, and it was due to actions outside my interactions with them, such as spamming, harassing others and the like, people refusing to argue in good faith is a fact of life we need to learn how to politically deal with, so their periodic presence is valuable insight into breaking what may otherwise be an intellectual bubble that hides from rather than engages with the wider society.

Reply to boethius

Quoting Jamal

I explained what happened in the Shoutbox.

One particular member began editing their posts to remove everything they had written, because they'd decided they didn't want to be a member of TPF any more. When I asked about it privately they asked me to delete their account and blank their posts in one fell swoop.
— Jamal

The whole story:

Mystery member posted a new discussion that consisted of a book title, a link to the book, and basically nothing else except for some words to the effect of "here is a book" (not even anything concerning the book's content). I deleted it for low quality and neglected to tell mystery member why I did so. Mystery member began self-erasing, and the rest is history.
— Jamal

Quoting Outlander

Oh now you care. After he's gone. Yeah. How typical of you

I was not aware of any issues. I was arrested a few weeks ago, then held in a psychiatric facility on suspicion of "illusions of police harassment" and held for observation for psychosis, so have my own stuff to deal with.

Since my time is anyways usually limited I try to only engage on one thread at a time so as to be able to participate in good faith, answer responses to my comments, and not be all over the place (which I would honestly love to do, but if I can't actually commit to a conversation and get into it, it's not really contributing to the debate).

However, I do very much care about all members of our community and their wellbeing. However, I err on the side that we're all here to argue about stuff, and that's what people expect from me if I disagree as I expect it from them if they disagree with me (by err, I mean assume people here can deal with encountering opposing points of view).

Quoting boethius

I was not aware of any issues. I was arrested a few weeks ago, then held in a psychiatric facility on suspicion of "police harassment", so have my own stuff to deal with.

That's actually the most interesting thing I've read here in a long time.

Anyway, he made a post about Trump and I made a reply along the lines of "that's the kind of person people relate to, as the average person's nature is low-brow, impulsive, and is basically the lowest common denominator", like I couldn't care less about the topic I just felt that was a fact that adequately answered the question and he completely ignored my post and just called me a "Trump worshiper", despite, again, simply giving my factual input as to the dynamic of the modern politic. Basically just an honest factual analysis of human nature as to how it relates to modern politics. Again, truly, I couldn't care less. So in my opinion, the individual in question is perhaps a bit sensitive or otherwise on a hair-trigger on certain if not many topics. I wouldn't take it personally, I suppose.

Reply to boethius Exactly.

The solution is to not post for a period of time and have a break from the Internet or the forum. According to the explanation of events by Reply to Jamal , he started to self-erase. I believe he did it in a state of anger, and his emotions were out of control. Deleting the posts is an extreme option, indeed. Imagine everything you posted for years vanishing like the smoke in the air.

Quoting Jamal

If they would like to join again, they can send an email to info@thephilosophyforum.com.

But everything he posted with his old user profile is now permanently deleted, right?

Quoting javi2541997

Deleting the posts is an extreme option, indeed. Imagine everything you posted for years vanishing like the smoke in the air.

I have different view. Some people may experience a change in how they see the world and feel embarrassed or self-conscious about their past ideas. Sometimes we need to make radical or symbolic change in order to move on.

Quoting Outlander

That's actually the most interesting thing I've read here in a long time.

I will make a post about it.

Honestly when I realized I was being "One Flew Over the Cuckoo Nested" my thoughts were "thank God for high school, I am prepared for this scenario."

After seeing a total of 7 doctors, 6 of them psychiatrists, in 2 hospitals over 5 days, I was not diagnosed with anything and free to go.

However, I think this tried and tested technique to deal with trouble makers will not be an isolated incident and it behooves anyone in the trouble making business to learn from my experience (what got me there and how I got out).

Quoting Outlander

Anyway, he made a post about Trump and I made a reply along the lines of "that's the kind of person people relate to, as the average person's nature is low-brow, impulsive, and is basically the lowest common denominator"

Agreed, wise, measured, fact based, if not common sense.

Quoting Outlander

ike I couldn't care less about the topic I just felt that was a fact that adequately answered the question and he completely ignored my post and just called me a "Trump worshiper"

That seems an unfortunate reaction, though the high emotions during this time is understandable. I've been seeing children killed nearly every day for almost 2 years. I find it sometimes difficult to function and contribute what I can to it stopping (such as messing with police when opportunity presents itself).

Quoting Outlander

So in my opinion, the individual in question is perhaps a bit sensitive or otherwise on a hair-trigger on certain if not many topics. I wouldn't take it personally, I suppose.

Seems accurate.

These are trying times where world views and identities are being challenged from multiple directions.

Quoting boethius

I will make a post about it.

Please do. But! Try the Lounge.

It's complicated/concerning, in the country I'm from "police harassment" means people who are sworn members of a municipal police force committing civil rights abuses, not what one might expect from the context of your story (you were harassing members of a police department).

It's still all, very, very interesting.

Quoting Jamal

Mystery member posted a new discussion that consisted of a book title, a link to the book, and basically nothing else except for some words to the effect of "here is a book" (not even anything concerning the book's content). I deleted it for low quality and neglected to tell mystery member why I did so. Mystery member began self-erasing, and the rest is history.

That does seem unfortunate, but also extremely usual measures which are usually remedied by enquiry about the deletion etc., that would be hard to predict a strong reaction in this case.

Thanks for the clarification.

Quoting Outlander

Please do. But! Try the Lounge.

I pretty much only hang in the lounge these days :) as the hot political topics are placed there for safe keeping. Which is fine, I do appreciate them being somewhere.

Quoting Outlander

It's complicated/concerning, in the country I'm from "police harassment" means people who are sworn members of a municipal police force committing civil rights abuses, not what one might expect from the context of your story (you were harassing members of a police department).

Also not expected here in Finland, but once encountering corruption everyone now tells me it's super usual and high level in Finland, old boys network etc. Unfortunately no one sent me that memo before. I was doing business in Finland precisely to avoid dealing with corruption.

Quoting javi2541997

?boethius Exactly.

The solution is to not post for a period of time and have a break from the Internet or the forum. According to the explanation of events by ?Jamal , he started to self-erase. I believe he did it in a state of anger, and his emotions were out of control. Deleting the posts is an extreme option, indeed. Imagine everything you posted for years vanishing like the smoke in the air.

I do hope the issue can be resolved and the posts brought back.

Quoting javi2541997

Deleting the posts is an extreme option, indeed. Imagine everything you posted for years vanishing like the smoke in the air.

It is extreme, and inconsiderate to members who have engaged in good faith, as it makes a nonsense of threads when one side of a dialogue is removed. I am surprised it is allowed; I would suggest that in general it should not be allowed, as it somewhat undermines the value of the site as an archive record.

Members need the ability to delete the odd post they might make in haste or anger, but to delete one's entire contribution is to destroy not just one's own work, but the full meaning of the contributions of one's interlocutors. And that is a deliberate destructive and malicious act.

Quoting boethius

Finland

Finland? BWAHAHA oh mate. No offense. I know many good Fins. Alright just these two guys. But really? Free health care? Free everything?

This is basically you guys if you keep that crap up.

[hide="Reveal"][/hide]

No and I mean I talked to a Finnish (aspiring) politician. He made it seem fair. Sure, if someone's wife or husband is killed in a car accident and they are in true irretrievable anguish (which I believe the concept of such to be a lie) they can live the rest of their days in reasonable dignity. That sounds fine. But we all know, what sounds good on paper and that echos between the halls of good and wise men, does not always translate to the so called "Real world".

Reply to Tom Storm Our past ideas can be embarrassing, no doubt. But not forgetting (or erasing in this case) the past can help us to understand how we are in the present and how we would look like to be in the future. I have changed during these four years in the forum. But I don't regret any of my 6,291 posts. Each post represents a footprint of my existence here. From now on, how can a new member ever know that tim wood existed here? :sad:

Reply to unenlightened :up:

Quoting unenlightened

I am surprised it is allowed;

Me too. I thought the site owned our posts and threads and they couldn't be deleted.

Quoting boethius

I was not aware of any issues. I was arrested a few weeks ago, then held in a psychiatric facility on suspicion of "illusions of police harassment" and held for observation for psychosis, so have my own stuff to deal with.

Hmm

Quoting javi2541997

I have changed during these four years in the forum. But I don't regret any of my 6,291 posts.

But people are different, right? You don’t understand the move because you wouldn’t do this.

Reply to unenlightened

Reply to javi2541997

Members cannot delete their own posts. They can edit them, so they can replace the entire text of a post with a single character, which is what happened in this case.

Quoting Outlander

Finland? BWAHAHA oh mate. No offense. I know many good Fins. Alright just these two guys. But really? Free health care? Free everything?

Exactly why the situation is so surprising to me. But you will be able to make your own opinion as to the happenings. May take me a day or two but I will @ you so that you get notified. Would be off topic to continue here

But yes, system is good on paper and pretty good in the real world, but of course all systems have failings.

Quoting frank

Hmm

I will @ you too, so you will not miss it. It is truly an extraordinary tale that I not expect.

Quoting Tom Storm

But people are different, right? You don’t understand the move because you wouldn’t do this.

It's true that it could be a legitimate well thought out political act, so please elaborate if there are good reasons for the move; that you know first hand or then can speculate.

Quoting boethius

It's true that it could be a legitimate well thought out political act, so please elaborate if there are good reasons for the move; that you know first hand or then can speculate.

I didn’t say it was a thought-out political act. I said some people (for whatever reason) might want to erase their presence somewhere. I presented one such example I did not say that this is what happened, just that it was a possible explanation.

Quoting Tom Storm

I didn’t say it was a thought-out political act. I said some people (for whatever reason) might want to erase their presence somewhere. I presented one such example I did not say that this is what happened, just that it was a possible explanation.

True, political motivation is not required; things seemed in some way related to Trump, hence my impression.

Definitely you are correct there could be many good personal reasons we can't know about to erase an account. We cannot know for certain.

Quoting Tom Storm

You don’t understand the move because you wouldn’t do this.

Exactly.

Quoting Jamal

Members cannot delete their own posts. They can edit them, so they can replace the entire text of a post with a single character, which is what happened in this case.

Yes, yes. I know. We are only able to edit the posts, not to erase them. The same happens to discussions. I remember asking fdrake to erase a thread I started because I wasn't able to do it by myself.

I believe he couldn't have erased more than 9K posts, but as Reply to Tom Storm pointed out, he may have had a new view on everything, and then puff, vanished into thin air.

Quoting boethius

Definitely you are correct there could be many good personal reasons we can't know about to erase an account. We cannot know for certain.

:up: No worries.

Quoting javi2541997

he may have had a new view on everything, and then puff, vanished into thin air.

He has not vanished. I hope he is still around and not taken action which may be even more drastic.
That people can change is self-evident. I will not speculate as to the reasons but I wish him well.
Thank you, Tim, for all our exchanges. I hold and cherish the good times. You know it!

You have done what I've felt like doing at least 3 times. Be well.
Take care :sparkle:

I wish we had a chance to talk before you left. Not that that would have changed anything.
But still...I hope there is someone...to reach out to, who will listen...and somewhere else to go that gives you what you are looking for. Perhaps, peace of mind. :pray:

If you wish, I believe there is a way via @Jamal whereby you can ask for my email.
That happened after the banning of my good friend, Olivier5. Just for a few words...it can help...

Quoting Jamal

Mystery member posted a new discussion that consisted of a book title, a link to the book, and basically nothing else except for some words to the effect of "here is a book" (not even anything concerning the book's content). I deleted it for low quality and neglected to tell mystery member why I did so. Mystery member began self-erasing, and the rest is history.

From the Shoutbox:

Since @Moliere had actually replied to the OP, he might have a different view of the matter. I don't think I’m exaggerating when I say it had zero substance. The problem with my actions is that I didn’t bother sending a message to the member to let them know why I deleted it. I think I was feeling quite grumpy at the time—and now look what’s happened.

It would be interesting to hear about the book and @Moliere's response.
What was it?

Rather than a swift deletion of the OP without explanation, perhaps a more respectful response would have been to reply in the thread and request more information be provided.

Quoting Amity

It would be interesting to hear about the book and Moliere's response.
What was it?

Eh, not much of one. I was fine with it being deleted at the time for the reasons @Jamal mentioned.

I'll respond to an OP of any quality as long as a thought comes along that I think might help. But I'm comfortable with what Jamal has done -- I didn't expect it to lead to a member self-deleting, but I hope they come back.

Quoting Moliere

I'll respond to an OP of any quality as long as a thought comes along that I think might help.

Good attitude, I think. But there are Guidelines to follow, doncha know?!

Quoting Moliere

I didn't expect it to lead to a member self-deleting, but I hope they come back.

Sounds like it was probably the final straw. I'm just interested to know the book's title and author.
Can you remember? Or have access to deleted posts?

Reply to Amity Nope.

Reply to Moliere OK.

Quoting unenlightened

It is extreme, and inconsiderate to members who have engaged in good faith, as it makes a nonsense of threads when one side of a dialogue is removed. I am surprised it is allowed; I would suggest that in general it should not be allowed, as it somewhat undermines the value of the site as an archive record.

Members need the ability to delete the odd post they might make in haste or anger, but to delete one's entire contribution is to destroy not just one's own work, but the full meaning of the contributions of one's interlocutors. And that is a deliberate destructive and malicious act.

I complete agree. :100:

NB: Fwiw, I've been away from TPF involuntarily (due to a severe medical emergency) since early May, about 6 weeks, and as I recover I'll gradually resume participating as before. This is not the place so I will post more on my situation elsewhere as soon as I'm up to it. These last weeks the prospect of leaving behind years of discussions and interactions on these fora has reminded me that sooner or later this will be the case unless I self-delete my entire post history which is unimagineable to me at the moment.

@Amity

Reply to 180 Proof

Yes. I agree.

Some acts are done without thinking through all the consequences.
The act deliberate but also spontaneous and not necessarily directed towards other posters.
It is also self-destructive.

Yes, moderators, I agree with the others that it’s a really bad idea to delete member’s posts en masse whether or not they have requested it. Once something is posted here it no longer belongs to the poster, it belongs to all of us. As others have noted, it irreparably damages other people’s contributions to the threads involved. Beyond that there have been wonderful, fascinating, moving, brilliant posts here on the forum over the years I wouldn’t want to see erased.

Please don’t make it a policy that this can be done in the future.

Reply to T Clark

:up:

But note that in this case he had spent many hours editing out the content of his posts. I don't know how far back he got but he got a good chunk of it. There’s no way I would have taken the time to go through the change log and reverse all those edits.

I think that’s why I submitted to his request to remove his account and all of its content, which I wouldn't normally have done and which I now mildly regret.

Reply to T Clark :up: :up:

Quoting Jamal

I wouldn't normally have done and which I now mildly regret.

If I remember correctly, @Wayfarer once suggested you put a time limit on how long someone could edit a post. I didn’t like the idea because I like to go back to my six-year-old posts and fix the grammar and spelling.

Reply to T Clark

Yes, your grammar and spelling were pretty bad 6 years ago. I’ve definitely noticed an improvement.

Quoting unenlightened

I would suggest that in general it should not be allowed

As I understand it, in some jurisdictions users have a legal right to have their posts and identity removed from the website if they so wish. Most forum software make it possible for administrators to do a full deletion for this reason.

Quoting Leontiskos

As I understand it, in some jurisdictions users have a legal right to have their posts and identity removed from the website if they so wish.

IF they didn't agree to legally binding terms at the moment of account creation. Which most all forum software requires (not for the benefit of the forum host or users mind you but the software company itself).

"All content submitted becomes reproducible, archiveable, yadda yadda" Not too sure on all that really but from what I've seen.

Reply to Leontiskos

Argument being, posting on some random website is not a requirement of life or a human right. I.E., you went to some dude's house because you wanted to (of your own volition), and he said, "oh, sure, you can come in if you do X and Y but not Z." Would you like to come in then yes or no? And the dude said yes so that's all there is to it. :100:

There's a free speech thing to "necessary" social media like Google and Facebook which some food and lodging companies or services either explicitly require or effectively require to utilize but for something like a private forum, I'm not so sure.

Like I could literally take $20 and buy theREALphilosophyforum.com, or something and start my own forum if I had the mind to. And that would be my right. So no one is deprived of some intrinsic right in such the scenario described above.

Quoting 180 Proof

These last weeks the prospect of leaving behind years of discussions and interactions on these fora has reminded me that sooner or later this will be the case unless I self-delete my entire post history which is unimagineable to me at the moment.

[s]I would think if you were to delete all your posts, you would do it consistent with your style and cross through them all.[/s]

A joke, my friend. Glad you're back and hope you're feeling better.

Reply to Outlander

See for example Article 17 of the GDPR.

Reply to Leontiskos

Sure, if that's what it says that's what it says. But of course some legal contracts (yes, those things most people don't read that in fact legally serves as if they did) do consider posts made public communication, even so-called "Private" messages. At least the term that there is no such reasonable expectation of actual "privacy" on a private forum. A webmaster can view private PMs if he wishes, due to the nature of the underlying terms.

Yeah, if I'm some amateur web developer and I make a forum with no terms whatsoever that you literally just punch in the web URL and click "Post", that probably applies.

But no matter how thorough those terms are, it can't supersede the right of two people to make a contract that said work of party A belongs to said venue or otherwise party B. It's simply not possible.

Reply to Outlander - I don't know of any forums that are prepared to fight the legal battles required to oppose the colloquial sense of Article 17 of the GDPR. In theory they could fight those battles, sure.

The point here is that although it would be nice to retain a user's posts even against their will, there are significant legal impediments to doing so, at least in many countries. One possible workaround is to purge their identity and username but retain the posts, but even this would generally break backlinks and discombobulate the conversation history.

Quoting Leontiskos

As I understand it, in some jurisdictions users have a legal right to have their posts and identity removed from the website if they so wish. Most forum software make it possible for administrators to do a full deletion for this reason.

The right to change or erase the past is a dangerous nonsense, beloved by dictators and warned against by George Orwell.

I didn't say that.

Reply to unenlightened - I've been publicly in favor of limiting the ability to edit posts to < 5 minutes for a long time. I'm pretty sure Plush Forums doesn't provide that middle-ground option.

And I think the GDPR is too strong on that front, but I don't actually know the legal history of that article.

All posts will eventually fall into a massive bit bucket that will collapse in on itself and become a wormhole.

Quoting Leontiskos

I don't know of any forums that are prepared to fight the legal battles required to oppose the colloquial sense of Article 17 of the GDPR. In theory they could fight those battles, sure.

If in the jurisdictional province subject to the aforementioned document ruled binding by the relevant governing body, one is not allowed to administrate a website where communication is possible without being subject to GDPR, then that's correct. Terrifying, yet correct.

The argument would be, there is no battle to fight if the war is simply considered irrelevant. The terms (might, I haven't checked this particular forum software of website's specific stipulations) say "everything is public communication". Article 17 is specifically about "personal data." Which they (anyone who signs up for an account to post) agreed is a non-existent concept on SiteXYZ.com, for example. I'll erase their legal first and last name or address if they were so foolish to post such, but beyond that, two people have a right to make a contract and anything that makes that impossible deprives one's right of participating in society and the legal due process.

Quoting Outlander

two people have a right to make a contract

I would say that all sorts of laws and positive rights restrict one's right to contract. The GDPR is not unique in this.

But I am really not up on Terms of Service (ToS) law. I know it's a complicated area.