Ennea

Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 18:19 800 views 49 comments
Any naturalistic justification for existence must presuppose some element of what it seeks to explain. Thus, to avoid circularity, it is necessary to posit a transcendent ground of being. Moreover, one may develop awareness of it simply by choosing the appropriate reactions to external events, the actions of others, and personal shortcomings.

Existence comprises minds, ranging from singular particles to entire nervous systems. Consequently, sapience is such a rare and significant privilege that personally acquiring it defies coincidence. To make sense of my circumstances, then, I must invoke the MWI and posit that each mind perceives the world-branch in which it unifies with the ground, attaining Ennea.

Comments (49)

180 Proof November 01, 2025 at 18:29 #1022280
Quoting Dogbert
justification for existence

Existence is a brute fact and does not require "justification". Besides, even a "transcendent" why begs its own question / precipitates an infinite regress (i.e. every "transcendent" terminus e.g. "god" is arbitrary and unwarranted).
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 18:43 #1022286
Reply to 180 Proof Thank you for your reply! I personally believe the brute fact position is unsatisfying, and that at transcendent ground does not precipitate infinite regress. I would add that on a personal level, the underlying transcendent nature of existence is something that I experience regularly and is very real to me.
Outlander November 01, 2025 at 18:44 #1022287
You have achieved.. the number 9? Huh. Can't say I ever did that (at least not that I was aware of). So, neat, I suppose. Was it painful? :lol:

Quoting Dogbert
Existence comprises minds, ranging from singular particles to entire nervous systems.


Panpsychism is a theory. Have you proven it yourself conducting your own individual research you can share with us or do you just like the way it sounds? :chin:

A word of caution, if I may:

"You always admire what you really don't understand."
- Blaise Pascal

I like to call it "enchantment bias." (Dibs on full credit if I just coined that term right now, BTW.) :grin:
T Clark November 01, 2025 at 18:47 #1022290
Quoting Dogbert
Any naturalistic justification for existence must presuppose some element of what it seeks to explain. Thus, to avoid circularity, it is necessary to posit a transcendent ground of being.


I don’t understand. How is my presupposition any different from your positing of a transcendent ground of being?

Quoting Dogbert
sapience is such a rare and significant privilege that personally acquiring it defies coincidence. To make sense of my circumstances, then, I must invoke the MWI


This shows a lack of understanding of what probability means and how it works.
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 18:52 #1022293
Reply to T Clark If I win the lottery, I'm lucky. If I become a human being, I'm lucky. Thats how I see it.
180 Proof November 01, 2025 at 18:53 #1022294
Quoting Dogbert
... transcendent ground does not precipitate infinite regress.

Explain why it doesn't.
T Clark November 01, 2025 at 18:55 #1022296
Quoting Dogbert
If I win the lottery, I'm lucky. If I become a human being, I'm lucky. Thats how I see it.


This sounds like a discussion we’ve had before. Probably no good reason to rehash it.
Patterner November 01, 2025 at 18:58 #1022297
Quoting Dogbert
I personally believe the brute fact position is unsatisfying, and that at transcendent ground does not precipitate infinite regress.
How is a transcendent ground not brute fact or part of an infinite regress? What third alternative is there?
baker November 01, 2025 at 19:24 #1022303
Quoting 180 Proof
Existence is a brute fact and does not require "justification".


Except when life gets hard and one wonders why keep on going.
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 19:30 #1022304
Reply to 180 Proof To put it simply, to say that there is something which transcends the transcendent ground of being would contradict the definition of transcendent.

Think of transcendence as height:

Imagine a mountain that is the tallest in the world.

By definition, nothing is taller than it.

To say there is a taller mountain would contradict the definition of it being tallest.
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 19:34 #1022305
Reply to baker good point
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 19:44 #1022307
Reply to T Clark we have all existed for billions of years as nothing more than commonplace matter. The statement "I became human" makes perfect sense. You existed as commonplace matter, then you became human, then eventually you will return to commonplace matter. Don't act like I'm missing something obvious here that you aren't.
Ciceronianus November 01, 2025 at 19:55 #1022310
Reply to Dogbert
So you have existed for billions of years. We're you ever a mammoth? What was it like?
T Clark November 01, 2025 at 20:07 #1022312
Quoting Dogbert
we have all existed for billions of years as nothing more than commonplace matter. The statement "I became human" makes perfect sense. You existed as commonplace matter, then you became human, then eventually you will return to commonplace matter. Don't act like I'm missing something obvious here that yo


By what standard are human beings not also commonplace matter?
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 20:10 #1022313
Reply to T Clark Human beings are commonplace matter in the ontological sense, but that obviously isn't what I meant when I said that.
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 20:12 #1022314
Reply to Ciceronianus Is that bait or a serious question?
Outlander November 01, 2025 at 20:13 #1022315
Quoting T Clark
By what standard are human beings not also commonplace matter?


I *think* what he's saying is per law of conservation of matter (or whatever) since the beginning of the Universe, there was and remains the exact same number of atoms in existence. From the moment of the Big Bang to right now as you're reading this. There are no new atoms being made and no atoms currently in existence being destroyed (not sure about black holes). Basically saying, the atoms in each of our bodies (what he considers to be "him", his physical body, not a spiritual or metaphysical essence) are the exact same and have existed for billions of years.

It's... a novel concept. Something to chuckle at for a moment or two, I suppose. But nothing more.

Like, why didn't the atoms in my body end up becoming part of a mountain instead, or part of a star a billion light years away? Why are they exactly as they are, forming my physical body? (etc.)
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 20:16 #1022317
Reply to Outlander The disrespect you treat me with is unwarranted and betrays low intelligence.
Banno November 01, 2025 at 20:25 #1022319
Quoting 180 Proof
Existence is a brute fact and does not require "justification".


Yep.
Existence is taken as granted, not demonstrated.

There's something extraordinarily compromised about a view that seeks to demonstrate "existence". There's even this:
Quoting Dogbert
Thus, to avoid circularity, it is necessary to posit a transcendent ground of being.

We can't begin with the existence of the chair you are sitting on, but we can necessarily "posit a transcendental ground of being".

This is such poor thinking it beggars belief.
Outlander November 01, 2025 at 20:27 #1022320
Quoting Dogbert
The disrespect you treat me with is unwarranted and betrays low intelligence.


Accusing people of things that never happened is much worse, pal. All that and more.

"Ennea" is a prefix for the number "9." You can't use words outside of their meaning and expect people to read your mind. We can't. This is an English language forum, if it means something in another language, I apologize. That said, you should have offered some context first before expecting people to just know what you mean without having any ability to.

Once again, your theory is being ridiculed and discounted. Not you. I don't know you. You are not your theory. In philosophy, we attack ideas, not people. I don't know how you could have possibly arrived at the conclusion you have, but I'll keep it in mind that you're on a hair-trigger when engaging in discussions in which you're involved in the future.

It's just the Internet. Lighten up, friend. :smile:
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 20:29 #1022321
Reply to Outlander How are you a real person.
That sounds like a copypasta lmao
Outlander November 01, 2025 at 20:40 #1022325
Reply to Dogbert

I just went up to bat for you, dude. Come on, now. Don't attack your one and only wing man in this discussion. :wink:
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 20:45 #1022329
Reply to Outlander ok, If you must know, I am appropriating the prefix ennea to mean unifying with the ground. It seems like everyone but you was able to pickup on that from the context. I chose 9 because it has a symbolic significance of finality. The word itself doesn't matter too much honestly, I could have made up something but I liked ennea. You can call it whatever you want, or nothing at all, I don't care. Jesus man.
jgill November 01, 2025 at 21:04 #1022337
[quote="Dogbert;1022329"]I chose 9 because it has a symbolic significance of finality.

Explain, please.

Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 21:10 #1022341
Reply to jgill It’s because it's the last single digit, and it sorta gets reset to 0 when you get to 10. People have historically attached meaning to that fact I guess.
Ciceronianus November 01, 2025 at 21:11 #1022342
Reply to Dogbert
I'm merely trying to explore what you were before you became human. I don't know what "commonplace matter" may be. I suppose you may have been "just" commonplace matter up to the time you became human. But over the billions of years you lived you may have been an animal, or perhaps commonplace matter that was part of an animal.

I assume you were born, and had a mother and father, or were commonplace matter which was a part of either or both. If not, did God or something else intervene and make you human?

Probably not, I would say. But if not, wouldn't you have been your mother and/or your father, or a part of them? And before that their ancestors down through the ages (who may have included non humans)?

It seems you may well have been a mammoth, then. Or that you may have a very peculiar way of defining what you are.
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 21:18 #1022344
Reply to Ciceronianus Part of the matter that constitutes me may very well have at some point belonged to the nervous system of a mammoth, but to say that I would then possess memory of being that animal is ridiculous. So I appreciate you clarifying things.

The best analogy for my view is an ocean. Each mind is like a wave, moving across the water, replacing molecules and changing form as it goes. At one point it was small, combined with this or that ripple, and one day it will crash on the shore and return to that state.
180 Proof November 01, 2025 at 21:19 #1022345
Quoting Banno
Thus, to avoid circularity, it is necessary to posit a transcendent ground of being.
— Dogbert

This is such poor thinking it beggars belief.

:100:

Quoting Dogbert
Imagine a mountain that is the tallest in the world.

Everest is the tallest mountain on Earth. Olympus Mons, which is on Mars, is over three times taller – neither are "the tallest" possible mountain, so your analogy fails. "Transcendent" only means beyond or exterior to and not (the) absolute limit; ergo "transcendent ground" is like the illusion / horizon of "the largest number" (or "final number") and therefore is surpassable (i.e. Cantor's set theory proves there are infinitely many larger infinities).
Banno November 01, 2025 at 21:23 #1022348
Come on, Reply to 180 Proof; if we can have the highest mountain, we can have the beingest being...

180 Proof November 01, 2025 at 21:24 #1022350
Reply to Banno :smirk:

Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 21:25 #1022351
Reply to 180 ProofReply to Banno The mountain example is just to demonstrate how definitions work. Transcendent doesn't mean the "most" exactly. Something that fully transcends existence is itself is best articulated apophatically. Categories of being, reason, causality, etc. simply don't apply to it. It is beyond everything, sustaining everything, and underlying everything. It is your ground and the ground of all existence.
180 Proof November 01, 2025 at 21:28 #1022354
Quoting Dogbert
fully transcends existence

– is only nonexistence.
Banno November 01, 2025 at 21:30 #1022356
Reply to Dogbert Sounds strained.

This post exists.

We might proceed from that, without the constipation.

My apologies, Dogbert. There is a rash of really poor idealist tending OPs at the moment, and yours is one that caught my ire. It starts out wrong and goes astray from there.

Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 21:34 #1022358
Reply to Banno all good
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 21:35 #1022360
Reply to 180 Proof No, actually. Another way you could phrase the transcendent ground is as the transcendent heart of being. Maybe that's more intuitive.

Edit: Im liking transcendent heart better. Thanks for the unintentional inspiration lol
baker November 01, 2025 at 21:41 #1022361
Quoting Banno
There's something extraordinarily compromised about a view that seeks to demonstrate "existence".


It seems like a rather normal reaction of someone under strain.

Have you never been bullied? Have you never been told that you should do the world a favor and die?
What do you think are the metaphysical implications of having been bullied, or otherwise experiencing duress?
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 21:44 #1022363
Reply to baker are you saying this in a "leave that poor guy alone" way or in a "He has a point" way?
Banno November 01, 2025 at 21:47 #1022365
Reply to baker Existential crises as a reaction to trauma? A bit tangential, perhaps. While that might explain the motive, it doesn't resolve the incoherence.

Reply to Dogbert Indeed.

180 Proof November 01, 2025 at 21:48 #1022366
Quoting Dogbert
the transcendent heart

Sorry, more evocative gibberish – "heart" cannot transcend – your analogy makes even less sense now.
Ciceronianus November 01, 2025 at 21:52 #1022368
Reply to Dogbert
But in that case "you" don't and can't know what "you" were. All you know is that "you" weren't what "you" are now.

Why call it " you" in that case?


Ciceronianus November 01, 2025 at 21:56 #1022372
Reply to baker
Speaking for myself, being bullied and told I should die wouldn't convince me I don't exist.
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 22:00 #1022377
Reply to Ciceronianus Identity can get tricky. In my mind, the big picture is that I was some bit of commonplace matter that transformed into a human. Me becoming human is super fortunate, to the extent it defies coincidence. I then want to rationalize my luck. Thats the gist.
Dogbert November 01, 2025 at 22:11 #1022382
Reply to 180 Proof Heart means core. Heart directly points to the essential, central part of being--what everything else flows from. Ground invokes structural support, which is a bit off. Plus you feel it in your heart, but that's mushy gushy feelings stuff which we don't approve of around here.
unenlightened November 02, 2025 at 11:11 #1022503
Quoting Dogbert
?jgill It’s because it's the last single digit, and it sorta gets reset to 0 when you get to 10. People have historically attached meaning to that fact I guess.


That is a somewhat superficial property, a feature only of the modernish decimal system. It does have more ancient significance as the number of the fates, and the muses. It is associated with the nine months of gestation and female deities in general. The triple triple is the first number to have a central unit as its core, (as has any product of two odd numbers arranged as a rectangle). And 3 is the sacred number of the Trinity and of the ancient Triple Goddess, at least according to Robert Graves, in "The White Goddess".

Anyway, your choice has a traditional significance that makes it appropriate to your topic. As to "brute" being the ground of all being. Well only a brute would maintain that. :wink:
180 Proof November 02, 2025 at 17:27 #1022578
Quoting Dogbert
Heart is core ... the essential, central part of being

– does not "transcend" being anymore than the center of the Earth "transcends" the Earth. Only not-X (nonbeing) "transcends" X (being).
baker November 03, 2025 at 21:51 #1022888
Quoting Dogbert
are you saying this in a "leave that poor guy alone" way or in a "He has a point" way?

The latter.
Not to make this personally about you, though.



Quoting Ciceronianus
Speaking for myself, being bullied and told I should die wouldn't convince me I don't exist.

Indeed, but it just might push you into looking for a justification for your existence.

Not to say that this is what is happening for the OP. There is something fair-weather-ish about so much of philosophy. As if someone could spend one's days trying to figure out things like "Oh my, I don't know what's real!", and then close one's notebook, and then go and have a beer as if everything was totally fine.
baker November 03, 2025 at 22:06 #1022895
Reply to Banno There's the saying that the difference between a philosopher and a religious man is that a philosopher deals in expendable theories, while the religious man puts his life on the line for his ideas.

I think it's strange to think about questions like, "How do I know what I think I know? How do I know what is real?", and then turn around and go about one's business as if one hadn't thought about those things.

In the spirit of taking one's reflections seriously, and taking seriously the act of reflecting, it seems rather natural to also wonder about things such as a justification for one's existence.

Although I have seen professional philosophers dismiss particular themes as being simply a matter of "poor self-esteem" or some such "psychological problem" that doesn't warrant a philosophical exploration.
Banno November 03, 2025 at 22:31 #1022904
Reply to baker Yep. "While that might explain the motive, it doesn't resolve the incoherence".
T Clark November 03, 2025 at 23:18 #1022919
Quoting Outlander
Like, why didn't the atoms in my body end up becoming part of a mountain instead, or part of a star a billion light years away? Why are they exactly as they are, forming my physical body? (etc.)


Sorry, this slipped through the cracks and I didn’t respond.

The OP and I had a fruitless discussion of this issue in a previous thread. That’s why I didn’t carry the subject any further.