What should we think about?
In reading @GreekSkeptic's thread, "Is there a right way to think?" I started wondering, what should we think about? After reading a geology book, I have become concerned that we don't think about the world's resources and their connection to everything else, including riches, poverty, and war. If we had a king, this wouldn't matter, but as a democracy, perhaps there are some things we should be aware of.
Comments (54)
EDIT: I promise I'm not anti-American, but this habit of Americans of assuming everyone is American is infuriating.
They're kings metaphorically, but they yield far more power. But the mistake we keep committing is believing that a king (or leader) is what we need. They know no better than people what they need.
Indeed, a good part of the reason why we are burning the planet, committed to forever wars and inching closer to nuclear annihilation is because people in power think they know more than they do.
We don't have a democracy; we have fractured republics. I can't say what we should think, because there are too many topics.
No, no, no We just assume everyone wishes they were American.
Follow your curiosity. It knows where its goingor at least how to get there.
Caries.
Adult diapers.
But mostly, caries.
Everything. Nothing. And why the chronic habit (nearly contagious/mimetic learned idiocy) of not-thinking persists even in this post-Enlightenment "Information Age" (e.g. in the US, "Trump/MAGA" are only an effing symptoms). :mask:
Why assume Trump/Maga are the best example of not thinking?
Think about it, because if you think you dont need to think about it well, just think about it.
Arent Maga the only ones in the US pretending they dont want the US to become like Europe, while Europe becomes less and less like Europe every year? Nothing to think about there? I guess if you dont care about the US and Europe qua US and Europe, there is no reason to call what MAGA thinks thinking.
And sadly parochial.
I had a laugh at the idea that the USA doesn't have a king. Those countries with titular kings managed to build limitations in to their political systems, usually for the king to act only on the advice of the parliament. The USA apparently thought that since their king was elected, they could give them more power. It's their undoing. European, and other monarchies, kept the king in a box; the USA actually removed restraint on the executive.
That other nations might find the American system admirable is risible.
Which particular non-or-un-Americans/Europeans are the targets of your ire? Who are they who sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids?
Your government is partially based on the American system. What do you want to change it to? :razz:
AI says philosophy is thinking about existence, knowledge, values, and reality.
I think we need to understand reality, economics, and the best way to accumulate and distribute wealth for an ideal civilization.
What is the value of that? I think we have some serious problems that we need to resolve so our children and our children's children have a chance of having good lives. Being curious about the problems, gathering information, and being creative in resolving the problems, has value, but I am not sure frivolous thinking has much value.
Interesting comment considering I think colleges fail to teach how to have a useful understanding of economics. Without an understanding of reality, there can be no useful thoughts about economics.
Children start to grasp the difference between real and unreal at a fairly early age, don't they?
You guys copied our federalism. I think you secretly love the USA.
I long thought Europeans were fortunate to have a relatively long memory of kings and the struggle to gain the power of the people, because without that experience, nor education for democracy, there appears to be no will to be self-governing.
Capitalism based on the British autocracy is not the best way to have democracy.
The British have never really had autocracy due to the Magna Carta.
Can we please stop confusing the USA with democracy? The US began with slaves and masters, and the industrial north was even worse regarding the exploitation of humans. I do not know of which federation you refer, but I think we owe much to the Haudenosaunee Confederacy (Iroquois). We owe much to Athens, then Hellenism, and philosophers from that time to the present.
Strictly speaking, it's a republic, not a democracy.
You have chosen of subject worth thinking about, and I am delighted.
Looking at online explanations of autocracy, I see there is disagreement. One source said there are 3 forms of autocracy, dictatorships, monarchies, and dominant-party regimes. I think it is an error to restrict our understanding of autocracy to the organization of the government. Where there is an autocracy, the whole social and economic order would be part of that autocracy. In the US that is supposed to be democratic, the Industries were modeled after Britain's autocracy. We have some understanding of our Industry being autocratic, but our understanding of this is non nonexistent. Would you like to develop this thinking?
What is said is that American industries were modeled after the US military, whose structure comes from the Prussian military.
The US went through a period of de-industrialization starting in the 1980s. That old military style evolved into something more flexible, but there are still elements of it to be seen.
And the British have never had an autocracy.
Around age 8, the child's brian literally changes. The myelin sheath that covers the neurons is completed, and the shutdown of our brains begins. No longer will the child absorb information as they do the previous years. The child will begin judging what is true and what is not true, but this judgment is based on what was learned during the first 8 years. There is no guarantee that there will be a good understanding of reality.
Curiosity is not frivolous thinking, it is going where your heart leads you. If your heart doesnt tell you what the right thing to do is, nothing will. Heres a quote. I use all the time. Its from Ziporyns translation of the Chuang Tzu.
Wow, I thought I was the only one saying the US adopted the Prussian model of bureaucracy and also the is model of education for technology. Who esle is saying that? I hate being alone with the Prussian understanding.
Considering there isn't 100% agreement on what autocracy means, I am sticking my argument about the British being autocratic. This explanation comes from an old book, so maybe our disagreement is because the meaning of the word has changed.
The US begins with a New Social Order. That social order was more idealistic than actualized. The ideal was based on philosophy and the Enlightenment, but the new social order was not for everyone. It was for White property owners, and it was supported by slavery and the exploitation of immigrants desperate for jobs.
I can appreciate that point of view, but I can not accept it for myself. I am realizing something about myself I did not think about before. I am thinking I would not vote for Tzu to be my president, and I would value a man I wanted to be president more than I value a philosopher. It is said, "he turned down a job offer from King Wei of Chu, because he valued his personal freedom," according to Wikipedia. Therefore, the man willing to lead a nation is more important in my framework of human value.
However, we need artists and musicians, and philosophers, but someone better be thinking about our problems and how to resolve them and be willing to take on the responsibility of leadership.
Strictly speaking, I am female, not a human. :lol:
The Declaration of Independence could also be called a Declaration of Responsibility. Culturally, we have had a democracy with principles to live by, and number 1 is being a responsible citizen. Ideally, our social order is democratic, and I believe our economy and relationships would be better if we replaced our autocratic Industry with the democratic model.
I don't think there can be a republic without a democratic social order.
And theres no reason why you should. From what little I know of you, you are clearly a person of will. Thats a good thing, but its not whats right for me.
UK, Germany, France, Sweden. All the places white people used to believe it was ok to be British, German, French, Swedish, etc.
Poland is still Poland.
Maga is a symptom of not thinking? Ok. But is there nothing more to MAGA besides lack of thought? Or, more to my point, is lefty wokeness a symptom of not thinking too, or is maga the only evidence of the disease of not thinking post enlightenment? The knee-jerk throwing of all maga under the no-thought bus sounds pretty thoughtless to me.
Those swarthy, southern Europeans aren't quite white enough, are they?
It has nothing to do with white. It has to do with the political opinion that being British is a good thing to be. Or being German is a good person to be.
Im of Italian decent. Italys current president is fighting back - but all of Europe is in trouble.
So what the hell are you talking about? You cant out racism this greasy dago.
Well, you mentioned white people and certain northern Europe countries, you know, so I thought you were going there. As for Italy, which one? Most regions have their own dialect, and hate those others who don't speak it. Most of my ancestors come from around Potenza. I don't know if a Genoese would let me in the door.
Define what you mean by "lefty wokeness"? AFAIK that pejorative expression invokes another vacuous, right-wing media boogeyman in order to "own the Libs". :mask:
I love your reply. I also love democracy because it is about our differences and how, together, we make things good.
Yes. I dont want to hang around only with people who think the same way I do.
Good, you bring up things we should think about.
I do attempt to be inclusive, but was surprised by the Google reply to my question of citizen responsibility in kingdoms. Google says in kingdoms, citizens are expected to do the same things as people in a democracy, and I am unsure how well this works. Right now, it isn't working so well in the US either. I don't think many understand civic duties in the US. Our present president is certainly redefining the powers of the president.
Historically, people have struggled with their governments, but it was my understanding that in a democracy, the mechanisms for change are built in so that change can happen without violence. I think education for technology has left US citizens poorly prepared for peaceful citizen action. If I were in Russia, I don't think I would be so bold about expressing disagreement.
This statement is not racist but a truth for all humans and has been so from the beginning human time. Today, this tribalism has arisen with indigenous people around the world. Back in the day, there was competition between tribes, and some wanted to be known as "the real people". Some tribes had what we may consider silly rules, such as only people in their tribe could wear their hair in a certain way, identifying them with their tribe.
This is a good subject to discuss. Some of us like to believe we can create a better world, and besides needing science to protect our earth, we need to know normal human desires and behaviors, and the consequences of ignoring knowledge of being human.
I volunteered in the bookroom at our community center bazaar, and there were a few books about being woke. The understanding of those books was a deeper understanding of oneself, the world, and one's connection to others. They were happy, uplifting books. I just want everyone to know that is possible.
The left. The not-MAGA. (MAGA, that pejorative expression that helps progressives own the fascist/authoritarian haters). Maybe wokeness triggers a shut-down of communication, but so does just saying MAGA is the easy example of not-thinking. (Although it didnt shut me down apparently.)
Quoting Athena
Theres an element of what I am trying to say that is tribal for sure. But there is a more raw tribalism that properly arises closer to home, like in your house and your town and your city, and then there is a different kind of tribalism that incorporates the broad differences between nations like England and Germany. America is a good example of the two types of tribalism. In America, there is a real difference between a tribe from Alabama and a tribe from Montana and a tribe from San Diego, but all of them have the sense of being American, because being American is more ideological, or better, cultural, in nature. America itself is cross-tribal, by nature. We are many different peoples, who together form a nation unlike Britain, which is unlike Portugal.
But when the Brit (of any color) seeks to save Britain from becoming France or Afghanistan, when he or she seeks to save British culture, he only looks like a racist Brit because he is white. This means the white British man becomes the worst representative of the British culture. Today, because of leftism and immigration, that apparent racism of white British men makes the whole British culture look unjustifiable and not worth saving. It even justifies actively changing the culture of England, turning England into a piece of land only, and no longer a culture. So its mixed with age old tribalism, but its a broad cultural landscape (called England or France) at stake.
If all the immigrants assimilate to the culture, like all these Europeans did when America formed (the Irish in the 1800s, the Italians in the 1900s, etc), we see American culture change, but we see the Italian immigrant also change and become Italian-Americans too. Of course each wave of immigrants must be allowed to bring their unique past with them, but they must seek to build something new, drawing from the country they emigrated to.
Like tribalism, racism is also in the mix. In America for example, the Chinese didnt really assimilate as quickly as the Irish and the Italians, and of course Black American history is filled with racism. These are more tribalisms, but racial ones, and not so much cultural or ideological. And ultimately they are terrible growing pains underneath what American ideology and culture really are.
But my larger point here is that people let the issues of race dominate the whole separate issue of culture. The historic racism defines the whole culture, ie. America is a racist country. America is much, much different than just its racism. Same with Germany. Etc. But the only cultures we are allowed to promote are those of the downtrodden and the minorities. Else we sound supremacist or prejudiced against X. And during this distraction, the majority is being turned into a minority, and Europe qua Europe slips away.
My great-grandparents were from Abruzzi and Sicily, but I am a third generation American, so at this point, Italy may as well be Greece or Egypt.
Quoting Ciceronianus
I pretty much made my point above, but white people, who happen to be British, cant really be proud to be British anymore, can they. White Brits are colonialist, oppressors. They arent allowed to be proud Brits without sounding racist.
Europe is giving up its various identities. Maybe some can say so be it a bye bye English culture, but that is what could happen. It offends people to even notice this. But race/ethnicity is not the point at all. This isnt about putting down the other and balancing races. Its about building or protecting something unique, as a good in itself.
Personally, I like all of the differences and dont want to lose any of these cultures. But political correctness has trained too many too well. We are ordered to treat most traditional things, especially when they are white traditions, as hiding badness, so no one has felt safe enough to talk about any of the traditions (as they slip away, one institution at a time).
Aka Antifa opposition to pro-"fascist / authoritarian" white grievance paranoia. Yes, we're guilty as charged. :mask:
Quoting Fire Ologist
I didn't claim or imply MAGA is "the only" symptom of not thinking, though at the moment MAGA is the most conspicuous symptom (re: "alternative facts" anti-intellectualism, anti-science ...)
Cool.
I would argue that MAGA conservatism is only the most conspicuous example of not thinking because of the complicity of the major media and the conquests of leftist ideology since the 1960s. The left has successfully made the caricature of the white conservative common knowledge. The media says MAGA uses alternative facts" and anti-intellectualism, and is anti-science. But an honest look at what conservatives say, and think, and do, and care about, is not what the media portrays.
And further, I find the left to be fairly conspicuous in their ignorance (for some). The left is anti-history (when has socialism ever worked at all even slightly?), anti-intellectualism (who on the left will allow in good faith a conservative to challenge their dogma and debate the possibility that they are wrong about something with that conservative, or worse learn something new?), and anti-science is shown in how consensus among popular scientists and the authority of peer review has replaced thorough skepticism and honest experimentation and falsification, ie, we honestly dont know shit about the climate or medicine, even given how much we know, but science gets to make moral law (burning fuel is a sin) and set policy (no more nuclear power plants, get your Covid shot to save the planet ).
But fine, MAGA are the cretans - weve taken that abuse since the original Hitler (Ronald Reagan).
I was happy you referred to "MAGA conservatism." I thought that might indicate you distinguish it from Conservatism, which once championed individual rights and limited government. But then you disappointed me, and stopped using the "MAGA" qualifier.
The grotesque rogues gallery that is the regime now in power in our Great Republic (it resembled a republic, once) is intent on empowering the federal government and restricting individual liberty. MAGA, it seems, consists of its bewildered and besotted followers. If that's Conservatism, it's mutated considerably.
Quoting Ciceronianus
:up: :up:
True. These are all distinguishable terms: maga, conservative, traditionalist, rightwing, Republican.
So are these: woke, leftist, progressive, liberal, democrat.
I still disagree youve pinpointed MAGA if you see zero thinking in a maga supporter. But, at least youve focused the non-thinking paint brush with a little more precision.
So if we want to distinguish between maga and conservative, are there any thinkers who are conservative? Is it just MAGA who clearly dont think? I assumed anyone who voted for Trump and votes Republican, and finds good in some things republicans do, was one of your MAGA non-thinkers. My bad I guess. Because conservatives have to vote for Trump, precisely because of the way Harris and Biden and leftists and socialists and some liberals support empowering the federal government and restricting individual liberty.
Lots more to think about.
I'm definitely on the Left (i've confirmed this is several fora, several 'survey' type quizzes etc... and I've never been even 'on the line' as it were). But i recognize almost nothing of what 180/Cic are talking about here in my conservative friends etc..
I think there's some truck to one point on each side though:
1. 180 etc.. are right, generally, the self-avowed and proud "MAGA" types are running a bit of a scam (not themselves, they are pawns). It's almost a simply marketing ploy with big, crayon words to bandy about. Those people do certainly, unintentionally, seem to be anti-intellectualism, anti-science etc..
2. You are right: The left active thwarts and shuns any intellectual, scientific or sociological reality tat doesn't support the underlying emotional milieu they've worked themselves into. This has proved to be the more dangerous of the two, by a wide margin. There has been eight years of 'MAGA' America, and we see, loud and clear, where the hate, violence and vitriol is coming from. Not. MAGA.
:mask: wtf ...
:up:
Quoting AmadeusD
For some reason that is a bold statement of opinion, and not just an observation of what is actually happening right before our eyes.
Quoting 180 Proof
Exactly.
You worded that very well. I had not thought the thought of tribal differences, that is not just a difference of people in different places, but also a difference of quality, such as you said, the difference between tribes and being American, which can also be tribal. When I was a kid, the school said we should ask our parents what we were, expecting us to name a European country. My mother got indignant and said we are American, 57 different varieties. :lol: But I always wanted to be an Indian and was horrified when I learned how badly we treated native Americans.
I love all our differences like I love a field full of different colored flowers. I love that my city celebrates the Day of the Dead from Mexico, and we have an annual Asian Festival that used to represent all flavors of Asians, but now is down to a Japanese celebration because the people who started the celebration got old like me and can't do what they once did. That is a sad loss to our community.
Quoting Fire Ologist
Are you aware of the divide in the US and a fight for what it means to be a good American and decent human being? Not since our Civil War have we been so divided. Daily, the horrors of ICE are in the news, along with the actions of those who oppose ICE. ICE is behaving as badly as Germany's Gestapo. I am wondering if the US will exist for another 100 years. I don't think it can if it does not come to peace with itself. Too many US citizens do not seem to know that Mexicans owned the land north of the river that divides us. We have a treaty with Mexico that was supposed to protect the rights of former Mexicans, who did not cross the border, but the border crossed them. It seems to me this matter of citizenship is as old as ancient times and was tied up with notions of slavory. A big dividing point between Jews and Christians was notions about who can be one of us, with Judaism being more exclusive than Christianity.
I don't care where a child is born, if the child is educated in the US that child has learned to be American and from there, decisions should be based on the protection of children and family values. Mankind needs to up its moral standing and womankind might help, but the women supporting Trump sadden me very much because maybe womankind will not do better than mankind. Unfortunately, female Christians can be the worst. Whatever, our exclusiveness is a very good subject to discuss. I am glad to know the US is not the only country having a hard time with the instinct to fight for our group and not care about the well-being of all children.
That is an awesome statement. Our media has become our worst enemy, and it is my understanding that one of the most powerful media owners is not a US citizen. Freedom of speech is a good thing, but it also needs to be held accountable. We have sensationalized our news stories and forgotten or at least ignore our values.
In a small tribe, morals will be kept because people know each other, and the well-being of the tribe is important to everyone. When the tribe is millions of people, everyone becomes anonymous, and the well-being of a group this large does not impress our consciousness with the same personalness as a small tribe.
Religions made unnaturally large populations possible, but I don't understand how they can be maintained with modern science. The religions do not share the same beliefs, and that weakens them. Nationalism also makes large populations possible, but we can see now that we should not take nationalism for granted. When civilizations face hard times, they turn on each other. Being amoral is not a good thing.
Love it!
Quoting Athena
There really are so many things like that in America - totally agree. Nothing better than to hear some old guy with an accent talk about how much they love being American, while they are staying proud of some of the good things from their heritage at the same time - thats the way to be.
Quoting Athena
We are all being groomed to hate. Its our own faults for hating at all.
Quoting Athena
Thats not really true. There are some individual instances of abuse, maybe too many, but ICE has a dirty, dangerous job, so if we cant stomach the hard parts and the ugliness, we should change the law, not stand in their way throwing rocks like we live in the Wild West and need to form vigilante gangs to fight the rogue cowboys. Hating ICE agents is misplaced. Hate Trump and Noem if you want, blame our legislators for not making the case their enabling laws are being abused, but it makes no sense to me to blame the grunts whose lives are hard enough.
Quoting Athena
I agree with that. The world would be a more peaceful place if everyone reminded themselves of just that everyday. Love is all you need, so lets try to get there.
Quoting Athena
Me too. I fear what leftists want to make of NYC and what Newsome has made of California and what Democratic leadership makes of the political dialogue in Congress and in the press, and how the press always runs with whatever the Dems say and run against whatever Repubs say. The left is as likely to win as the repubs are to save what we have, but if the left wins, that will be the end of America (even though many leftists honestly love America). Immigration will be fixed if the left wins, because no one will want to stay here and theyll be more likely to close the border from the inside, like the rest of the socialist states always do. If we are not an Islamic caliphate.
Quoting Athena
I dont think I agree with all that. No more divisions for moral arguments. We all need to up our moral standing. Enough judging others first. That said, American Christians (not Republican Catholics as much) but the Christians can be too quick to pontificate and moralize using Jesus name to hide weak political arguments. But that said, the secular moralizing is the worst to me. Ill take a Christian woman preaching how I am going to hell, over a secular lefty telling me how much I am not a Christian or how much of a rape supporter and fascist and racist I am any day.
Quoting Athena
It certainly promotes division, and hides a lot of facts, to promote an ideology instead of just the news. At least they keep getting caught fabricating bullshit.
Quoting Athena
Thats interesting and worth thinking about. I think that is why everyone accuses the other side of being a cult. We cant imagine these broad groups actually are full of real people. A broad group like maga or socialists is a shallow box. Individual, actual people, are deep and too complex for such gross generalizations. But we get to feel better than millions of people if we allow ourselves to hate these groups. Viewing them as sheep in a cult lets us not look past the shallow boxes at the real people.
Quoting Athena
See, in one sense if people stayed in small tribes there would be constant threat of war right in your own backyard. Constant for all, until we formed huge populations. So if you think religion made this unnaturally possible (which is also an interesting idea), than that speaks well for religion, not badly about it.
Religion isnt opposed to science. It can be if you want. But science doesnt know very much either. And morality is an utter mess. Religion of sorts goes all the way back to the beginning of human history. Religion is literally what you make of it. It can be, and has been, a force for good. Like science can be, and has been, but is often wrong, and can be used to make life worse for many.